Tesla Rolls Back Supercharger Price Increases To Appease Owners

Tesla Supercharger

JAN 22 2019 BY STEVEN LOVEDAY 121

The customer is always right.

Many people praise Tesla for caring about its customers and listening to their feedback. Just last week, we reported that the Silicon Valley electric automaker substantially raised prices for Supercharging globally. The car maker is clearly struggling to continue to show a profit. Moreover, Tesla needs to bring the base Model 3 to market.

In addition, it has big plans to move forward with additional projects like the Tesla Semi and Roadster. Thus, cuts are imminent. In addition to upping Supercharger rates, Tesla eliminated its Referral Program and will slash 7 percent of its full-time workforce.

According to Electrek’s analysis, Tesla hoped to increase average pricing for Supercharging by some 33 percent as a whole. This number is not specific to all markets, since the automaker planned to adjust pricing based on local electricity costs, as well as area-based demand.

Needless to say, many current and soon-to-be Tesla owners were upset by the upcoming change in pricing structure. Some were even going so far as to do the math, which showed that Supercharging could end up costing nearly as much as gassing up in some markets. Additionally, charging at some other non-Tesla stations could be cheaper. The truth of the matter is if people cancel their reservations due to this adaptation, Tesla could be in a much more dire situation. So, the money gained by increasing rates could easily be lost due to decreasing sales.

Obviously, Tesla took notice of the contention on social media and forums, likely crunched some numbers, and decided that this plan is not going to work. Less than a week later, the automaker decided to dial back the price hike by some 10 percent worldwide.

As Tesla continues to move forward with hopes to keep finances out of the red, decisions like this are hyper-crucial. One faulty move by the automaker could cause catastrophic issues. On the other side of the coin, if Tesla continues to crunch the numbers and listen to consumers, it should be able to continue its forward momentum unscathed.

Source: Electrek

Categories: Charging, Tesla

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121 Comments on "Tesla Rolls Back Supercharger Price Increases To Appease Owners"

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I don’t know why anyone would cancel the Tesla because some supercharger that they might use once a year is going to be $10 more expensive in a long road trip.

Do Not Read Between The Lines

Lots of Tesla buyers depend on the Superchargers for charging.
It’s not the future yet.

That is true but there are Model S and X owners in high use suburban areas who use Supercharging because it’s free and they purposely don’t install a charger at home. This causes some stations to be full almost all the time and Tesla is limiting charging times. I think if free Supercharging went away and everyone had to pay for it, there would be no reason for Tesla to raise rates.

Although Tesla can hardly take free supercharging away from customers.

Nonsense. Tesla would have to be the dumbest company in the world if they did not leave themselves a legal loophole to one day remove free supercharging. I’m not suggesting they do so today, but to say they can’t take away free supercharging is (hopefully) inaccurate.

Even a requirement to pay for any Local Supercharger use (within 10-20 Miles of your Home Address), after 1 Use Per Month, particularly if you are not tracking a Path to, or from Home, via Superchargers, from over 400 Miles from/to home! As in, Starting, or Finishing, a Road Trip. Once a Month free use, should be OK, but Paying for Repeated Local use, should be Instituted.

After all, will Porsche TayCan Drivers be Charging up, only on Porsche Dealer Fast Chargers?

Look we are talking less than 60K cars (end of 2015). In America, you are looking at around 1/2 of those, so 30K. Probably half of those are in California, and then rest are spread amongst the states.
Little would be gained by Elon breaking his word, except causing a number of law suits.

I believe it is end of 2017, and I think even some Model 3 performance vehicles have free supercharging. Certainly my Model S from August of 2016 has free supercharging.

I would certainly support charging a fee if it meant I could rely on charging at urban superchargers while on trips. As it is, many of these places have such long wait time for charging it is a little bit ridiculous. However I can see how it might be impossible to charge those users at this point.

Maybe they can rebrand new chargers as “Turbochargers” and then those always cost money.

I don’t know about no reason to raise rates. With more 3 on the road, there will be need for more superchargers even if they are just used for long distance.

With the price bitching, it’s pretty clear many are using Superchargers as their normal charging, and even more need for more superchargers. With the price back lower, they will continue to use them as before. Increased Tesla sales will mean even more clogging, assuming Tesla won’t divert funds to “invest” in accelerating supercharger installations.

It also adds weight to my idea, that for a 12 Stall Supercharger Site, Tesla Could Co-Locate, 12 Destination Charger units, as “Top Up”, and “While You Wait” Chargers! 8 at an 8 Stall Supercharger; 20 at a 20 Stall Supercharger, 4 at a 4 Stall site, etc!

Twice as much Land needed, though!

So, you want Tesla to break their word that our 2013 MS (bought before Tesla was known to have made it) would never have to pay at SC? Yes?

Tesla said Supercharging would be free for the “life of the Model S/X”. Tesla decides when the “life” of the Model S (and X) ends. So that free Supercharging won’t last forever.

Huh? What do you mean? The life of the model in their lineup as opposed to the life of the specific cars installed? If you mean the former, I don’t recall any phrasing indicating that in the marketing lit. If the latter, no, they don’t decide when the life of a particular car ends.

Yes. Greater good and all that. As someone suggested above, Tesla could eliminate the “free” supercharging if within 50 miles or so of your home address. Supercharging is meant for travel, and those who use the free charging for everyday driving are violating the spirit of the intended offer. I drive my Model 3 about 1k miles per week and use the supercharger network extensively, and have never used a supercharger within 100 miles of my home.

Would love to see the numbers here. What % don’t have home or work charging and truly need Supercharging versus those who do and just love cheap fuel?

I suspect that 10-20% are not charging at home/work. Not sure why, but …

There shouldn’t be a “need” for Supercharging. If there’s no ability to charge at home, maybe a BEV isn’t for them.

Tesla really needs to push for states to require that rental’s parking spots provide 240V unless they already have 120V or better. Likewise, all new buildings should require 240C for each parking spot.

If landlords can provide a metered NEMA 14-50, and can sell power at double their cost, this would be ideal.

These people should not have bought an electric car. If you don’t have L2 charging at home, owning a purely electric vehicle is a stupid move.

There are some that equate Tesla as a “status” car… like BMW and Mercedes and being ‘green’ is least of their concerns. For these people free charging is just something they have to take advantage of. People get off of getting good deals and free things. Like if someone leaves donuts at your break room at work, some people will take one… some two… some will take the whole box when no one is looking.

I had my first EV for two years with only L1 charging in my garage. It was hardly “stupid” – with a 40-mile commute I would easily recover that much range while I slept, this each morning it was ready to go. At that point, who cares if it takes 10 hours to charge or 2 hours to charge? Either way, I was asleep while it charged.

L1 can be done quite easily, given reasonable commutes. Even easier with a larger battery as a buffer.

The main reason is because the superchargers are said to be such a big part of the overall package that people who don’t know otherwise would see this as a direct increase in running costs of the vehicle.

That would only apply if you’re doing all your charging at the Supercharger, which is really not a good thing to do anyway. But people who are still in the ICE fuelling mindset may not get that.

Still seems, reading Contracts, is not frequently actually DONE! Or, Sale Pitches are incorrect?

Actually, our contract back in 2013, said all that we wanted. period.

They probably wouldn’t, first of all just because somebody says online they’re going to cancel an order because of this doesn’t mean they are going to. Second of all for someone to cancel an order because of this means that they probably plan on doing a lot of charging on the road.

The one problem is that the superchargers cost more than than 3rd party chargers in some areas

so, go to the others.

Far too many ppl count on using the SC a lot more than 1x / month, let alone a year.

It’s laughable that owners of a 80-100k car complain about kWh rates. Get a life.

Not laughable, many folks who drive $80-100k cars do so because they understood the value of the dollar BEFORE they earned/drove the car. The car is the end result of that concept. Why should they be criticized for keeping the concept of the value of the dollar AFTER they earned the vehicle??

A good compromise.

For now.

Looks like Tesla has bean counters too.

They need to offer time-based pricing in markets where the utility offers off-peak rates. Their justification for the price increases is that they’re getting hit with demand charges. Those are only an issue during peak times because they stress the electric grid. So, for the benefit of the grid, they should incentivize people to supercharge during off-peak hours. I might plan my travel to supercharge off-peak if it cost half as much to do so then.

Aren’t off peak hours typically in the middle of the night? While that may work for some people, I doubt most would be willing to do most of their driving then.

I think you’re underestimating how cheap many people are, including people who own Teslas.

Off-peak for my local utility is any time EXCEPT M-F Noon-8PM. Not so hard to schedule around that.

If by “Middle of the Night”, you mean from 7PM to 7AM (Ontario, Canada, Toronto Hydro “Off Peak” Run Time), that still leaves quite a Bit if time to do this:

Leave Home on your Road Trip, charged up to 100%, at 4 PM, drive 3 Hours to First Supercharger and plug in at 7:05 PM, charge for 40 Minutes. Leave at 7:45, drive another 2.5 Hours, to a Hotel with a Destination Charger: Stay the Night, leaving in the Morning with 100% full, again!

Day 2: Drive for 3 Hours, Superchargers for 45 Minutes, drive another 2.5 Hours: Stop at a Restaurant with Destination Charging, for a 60-90 Minute Meal. (45-90 Miles added). Drive 60 Miles to a next Supercharger, but charge for 30 Minutes. Then drive 2 Hours, to arrive at another, at 7:05 again! (Rinse, Repeat)

So, half your charges, will be at the Discounted Rate, if not Free (Overnight, & @ Restaurant!)

Point!

charge before 0900 or after 2100? If you are at a SC, that is not long to do.
In addition, you can hit the shoulder, such as before 1400, or after 1800.

Based on some other literature, the utility companies rarely (if ever?) charge more for different times of day…It would be fairly confusing to a new potential customer when they asked the question “how much is it to charge?” anyways…

Last I checked utilities do care about shifting load off-peak, especially during the summer when AC usage during the day causes high utilization.

Supercharge pricing is incredibly confusing in many places now with pricing per-minute based on kw being drawn. Might as well make it more confusing, but less expensive.

this is why I continue to speak out against hybrids and most low MPC EVs. These are the ones that will charge in the daytimes, EXCEPT for those going cross country (and those are what SC was designed for ).

I should add to my comment, I mean for the companies who provide EV Chargers…

Well, ICE Drivers, drive 10 Mile’s to save $0.20 a Gallon, and line up for 20-30 Minutes after they get to the Costco Pump Station! Then drive 10 Mile’s Home!!

People really are stupid! That saves maybe $2.00 and wastes at least 20min of your life. Crazy!

It’s a nice idea, but charging should be simple, and part of that simplicity is having one price.

Do you want supercharger queues, because this is how you get supercharger queues?

I want fist fights between free for life chargers and paying chargers.

Tesla Logic: any media exposure is exposure.

Pay per view, all out brawl between free chargers and payers!

Free charging sucks.

Might be the last event. They have a referee now.

https://twitter.com/ihcombo/status/1058163521714716672

Eject, Headline for You: “Fight Breaks out at Tesla Superchargers, as Rich Bumb fights to get Free Supercharger Spot, ahead of Paying Customers!” Bet you’d love that one!

The disproportionate throwdown between the Tesla early adopter (free 4 me) crowd, and the Johnny cum lately (pay 2 play) crowd, needs a comprise. This Supercharger scenario needs to be reconsidered with a better solution for all.

A deal is a deal those who bought with free supercharging for the life of the car will get just that unless Tesla goes into BK). Any attempt to change that would be easily reversed by the courts probably with lawyer’s fees and civil penalties thrown in.

Gave my idea over a year ago for Tesla to economically handle both “Charge for Life” users and also those who have to pay every time, plus a trivially easy way to double the size of most SC sites for little expense to Tesla, and also fully utilize their investment.

But then I have experience in Traffic loading (has nothing particularly to do with cars – much more general a concept between users and ‘suppliers’). Of course it was TOTALLY RIDICULED by people who have absolutely zero experience.

Pay me now or pay me later. Whatever Tesla charges to use the Superchargers the rate changes don’t change what Tesla has to pay to install and operate the chargers. If Tesla loses money on Supercharging then they will have to make it up in higher vehicle prices or more debt.

Tesla prospective buyers are idiots if they think lower Supercharger rates are going to save them money. What Tesla really needs to do is add other charging standard plugs like CCS and CHAdeMO so that non-Tesla EVs could use the Superchargers. The increased traffic would reduce marginal costs allowing PROFITABLE charging rate reductions.

Hmmm. So, add the plugs and then charge more to the non-teslas so that they are paying their way?
That may not be a bad idea.

Of course, that simply takes away from the advantages of Tesla, so not sure that it is worth it.

Perhaps offer a couple of spots for the POS.

Are there any publicly available stats on how portion of their driving owners of various Teslas models fuel via Super chargers vs. at home or work charging? My guess is that across the board it’s a pretty small number, so the protests are likely coming from a very small but very loud contingent.

Cleantechnica has a survey of EV owners that covers a bit of this.

How do you boil a life frog? Well, you don’t throw it in hot water, it will jump right out. So you gradually raise the temperature. Between the lay offs, the massive price raise of S/X by eliminating the 75kWh versions and the sudden 33% raise in Supercharger prices it looks like Tesla needs money now though and the way it’s going about is none to subtle and might end up spooking investors.

Little cement frog shoes.

Brilliant! 🙂

Dear Elon,

As a Bolt owner, I would gladly pay you $1K for a CCS-to-Supercharger adapter. And I will gladly pay $0.31 per kWh for the use of your amazing Supercharger network. Your customers don’t appreciate you, but others do.

$1k plus 31 cents/kWh would be plenty worth it for the reactions of entitled Tesla owners freaking out seeing a Bolt plugged into “their” precious Supercharger network, let alone the added road trip convenience. Lol

Actually, many of us DO appreciate him.
How many GM owners would actually help the company ready cars and take them to other customers?
The ones gripping here, likely do not own Tesla.

I will say that part of me likes what you are suggesting, while another part of me, says that this is a HUGE selling point for a tesla. However, if they modify 1 out of 10 SC to allow that, it might be useful.

For a commercial DCFC system operator to hit a 10 year ROI (turn profitable after 10 years), customers would need to be charged between $0.69 to $0.76 per kWh (~ $6 per gallon equivalent). 15 year ROI isn’t any better due to likely upgrades that will be necessary in that timeframe. Let the reality of that sink in.

Source: page 34 of a May 2017 DOE study titled “Considerations for Corridor and Community DC Fast Charging Complex System Design.”

This may be so, but the economics of Tesla’s superchargers are a bit different from the commercial DCFC operators. Utilization is different, the equipment cost is different, real estate agreements are different, various grants are different, even the electricity supply is different.

uhm… Reference #1 of that report = Tesla. That being said, yes many factors affect the estimates but that study is pretty even handed with regard to those facts… I’d say the costs assumed are on the fatter end of the normal spectrum but it also assumes aggressive utilization at the high cost per kWh to customers. Curious what you are referencing as the different electricity supply for Tesla? A handful of Muni’s/PUDs have adopted a less demand fee based rate schedule for EV charging stations but those are very few and far between.

Until the rEVolution gets a little more brand agnostic, the best use of our efforts is to get J1772 L2 charges EVERYWHERE (bowling alleys, movie theaters, museums, new homes, apartments, etc.) and teach newbs the ABCs of EV ownership (Always Be Charging). To the uninitiated, lots of EV chargers everywhere is more impactful than 20-80% L3 times that will ALWAYS be slower than dino juice fills.

~ $6 per gallon equivalent is based on 30 mpg vehicle. It is somewhat dated now, when 58 mpg vehicles are available.
100 miles in 27 kWh/100 mi car – 27*$0.73/kWh = $19.71
100 miles in 58 mg car – 1.724 gallon. $19.71/1.724 = $11.43.
So it would be equivalent to ~ $11/gallon for such. Current AAA average is $2.25/gal including ~$0.50/gal road & other taxes.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=39614&id=41056

“$0.69 to $0.76 per kWh (~ $6 per gallon equivalent).”

Interesting. I came up with bit over $1/kWh, but that depends on local electricity pricing, customer turn rate assumptions and “maintenance”. I assumed pretty high, might be too conservative. That means $0.76/kWh might be even less realistic in my model.

But Tesla’s different in that whatever they “lose” in Supercharging is effectively the advertising budget.

This raises some questions…How will this jive with Tesla promising $.07/kWh on the semi? What ever happened to the superchargers receiving more solar panels? Finally what’s going to happen to V3 superchargers are deployed, will they charge more because they’re faster?

That is a valid question. The $.07/kWh is the cornerstone of Tesla’s truck economics but doesn’t jibe very well with the apparent high energy cost Tesla is facing for its Superchargers.

Of course the megachargers Tesla intends to build for the trucks will dispense energy at an entirely different scale so maybe that unlocks completely different economics.

I just see it as a very typical ‘Loss Leader’ that MUSK is doing to increase the desirability of his truck. Nothing wrong with that as Marketers do it all the time.

I am not certain about that last. Right now, I would guess that the Park Meadows mall/Colorado tesla site uses as much as any store in the mall.

If Tesla was smart, they would hook up with truck stops (flying J/TA/Loves/etc).
These are already spaced out to support Trucks, and most of them already have massive electrical connections there.

good questions.

I have been driving a Tesla since 2013, and using Superchargers mostly around the Sacramento area but also on several LONG road trips around the West and MidWest. This driving experience is over 3 successive Tesla vehicles from my first 2013 Model S 85 to a 2015 Model S P85DL and now with a 2018 Model 3 Performance+ I have to admit that though I have a large solar array on my house, for the Model S ownership years, I “overused” my local Superchargers ….just because I could and it was free. Looking back, it would also have been FREE to fully charge all those times at my home, since I regularly ended up with a big positive $$$ credit on my electricity account from my solar panels. Particularly this past year as I waited for my Model 3, since I had “free supercharging” on my Model S, I totally “overused” my local Superchargers. And from many, many of those times that I spent at Superchargers, both locally and on travels, I frequently chatted with others Tesla drivers asking them if “they are local or long distance traveling?” Too often I found others too were simply using the Superchargers because… Read more »

So, if after your first Local Supercharger Use, per Month, you had to pay usual Rates, would that Another or Upset You (Assuming still in the “Free Supercharging For Life” Model S)?

(That was always a “Poorly Articulated” offer, when he “Assumed” folks would understand, it was to travel on, not to be lazy, and not set up they Home Charging “Gas Station!”)

we were promised unlimited use. That was part of the deal for why some ppl bought in early on. Changing it is not fair.
OTOH, I am glad to see the high tax on sitting around. I have seen ppl with their car parked for 4-6 hours. Total BS.
And that was when we had 4 spots instead of 10.

Look, using the SC to charge your car will bring down the battery. The truth is, that they are hard on the cells.
Im guessing that you are not running your 2013 into trip range all the time. That will do you in even faster (sean from Denver can tell you all about that).

We have a 10 KW Solar City system and we mostly charge at home. The only times that we locally SC our 2013, is if we are making loads of runs around the area (60 miles to/from in-laws; 45 miles to/from airport; etc), OR when S.City had our solar system down for several months (ugh). Right now, we charge from 2100-0900 but using a 120V/20A plug.
So, I am guessing that we use it ~1x a month.

Hard to believe that no one at Tesla actually took time to do the math. How was the 30% price increase decided upon? Picked out of a hat?

30% increase decreased by 10%. So presumably only a 20% rise – or thereabouts depending on how they are counting it.

And now everyone is happy with the 20% increase, which was probably the increase they wanted in the first place.

Well played Tesla! Well played!

no, the .31 kwh was the highest amongst the lower 48. They simply pulled all of them up to that level.
They need the money most likely to develop our further, but also need to discourage ppl from using this for daily charging.

Yes, i get it…what i don’t understand is why do you have to make 2 steps forward just to make one step backwards. Make a step forward and call it a day.

Elon was foolish when he promised that the Supercharging network and Tesla service centers would not be profit centers and would at most just cover their costs. Building the Superchargers and service centers required many billion of dollars of capital. Every for-profit company must provide a return on capital (equity/stock) to remain a viable business (return on investment [ROI] on issued common stock). A return on capital is a net profit on the income statement. Since the Supercharger network and service centers used capital to get built up, but DO NOT contribute to net profits, Tesla must makeup for their shortfall through its other revenue streams, mainly revenue from the sales of cars. Thus, Tesla can’t lower the sales price of its less expensive Model 3 as much as it like, because Model 3 revenue must be used to subsidize the Supercharger network and services centers by providing for their missing share of ROI or return on capital. In the past, Tesla was able to cover the ROI/return on capital of the Supercharger network and service centers by selling $100,000+ Model S and Model X with fat profit margins, especially on options. But now with the lower priced Model 3… Read more »

Possibly not so foolish. Musk might be just covering his ‘expenses’ of deferred construction costs and current operating and maintenance expenses.

I always put out there that I always wondered who was going to pay for the convenience of ‘fast charging’.

Users are finding out the obvious answer that the users themselves are going to be paying for it.
A 20% or thereabouts rise is not necessarily making them into a ‘profit center’. He may be just trying to break-even and make the money on the cars.

I agree with most of what you said except the Superchargers and service centers were NOT paid for from profits on the Model S and Model X. The Superchargers and service centers were paid for with borrowed money. Profits from the Model X, Model S AND Model 3, don’t even cover the interest on the debt yet.

There are no consistent profits for 15 years, other then one quarter blinks engineered by selling accumulated regulatory credits, and gross margins on retail price, ignoring much of the costs.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/272130/net-loss-of-tesla/

It is nothing foolish about it, it is how most startups operate, it is culture of Silicon Valley.
Promise pie in the sky, attract some capital, attract customers by selling dollars for 50 cents. Show market share, attract more capital. Rinse and repeat until you reach top and can sell the market share and “new huge big thing” to some big company. What happens afterwards, it is somebody’s else problem /s

$.31/kwh (before the 10% drop) —— The way I run the numbers that’s around $4.00/gge.

The reasoning I saw was to get rates more in line with local electricity prices and demand charges. (which surely was known all along) . I’m going to assume it must be the demand charges that is tearing them up. If so, then there’s no easy way out of this predicament — ‘cheap’ supercharging has basically been a financially un-sustainable “lead-loss”.

Considering that CNG is way cheaper (not to mention gasoline AND diesel) , and biomethane can be produced for less as well ….. supercharging at a $4/gge equivalent rate doesn’t bode well for the Tesla semi. Or any ‘big battery’ highway capable BEV, for that matter.

/so the whole “it’ll pay for itself with fuel savings” argument is pretty much out the window, at least as far as highway/can’t charge at home drivers are concerned
//and if you aren’t a highway driver, why buy the big battery BEV? — wouldn’t make financial sense

Carcus – Two things.

1). Musk promised as part of the deal with his Semi Truck is that the refueling cost will be $.07 / kwh (there are 3 different ways to calculate this – I’ve gone over that elsewhere). This is a sweetener for his truck sales and, in my opinion this “Loss Leader” is a perfectly acceptable marketing ploy. Unlike early “S” buyers – Musk never Guaranteed $.07/kwh would be there in perpetuity for ALL Semi Customers forever on.

2). Superchargers, what with this and any future rate increases might be seen as expensive, but really, what percentage of the typical Tesla driver is taking long trips or is on vacation?

Musk has repeatedly said that SC usage should not be for UBER, Taxis, Locals hogging the spots, etc. If the typical percentage usage is relatively low by the typical user, I don’t see this as much of a hardship for them.

Musk – by encouraging people to find alternate charging sources for their Tesla products, is increasing the effectiveness and value of his Supercharger Network, seeing as all other drivers will increase the CHARGING TOTAL LOADING elsewhere on their own.

Bill

1. Goes back to my ‘unsustainable lead loss” — it’ll be $.07/ kwh — till it’s not. (also known as “bait and switch”)

2. If you can afford a big battery BEV, then it’s highly likely you live in a 2 or 3 car household (one of which is not a BEV). Why pay $10, $15, or $20k extra to haul around a battery that you almost never use?

— So Ubers, taxis, apartment dwellers are now off the list of potential customers for Tesla? Maybe so — and it doesn’t bode well.

I’m a high-mileage EV driver (over 20,000 miles per year per car), with 1 phev (2014 caddy elr) and an early 2017 Bolt ev, with just shy of 40,000 miles. I regularly use ALL of the battery capacity such that I return home with the final 5% bar flashing orange at me and ‘Charge Vehicle Soon’.

I’m not carting around something I never use. I use it all the time. The ELR also returns its battery at ‘0’ everyday.

So in my case the BoLT is fully utilized, and the engine and battery in the ELR are fully utilized.

Carcus said: “I’m going to assume it must be the demand charges that is tearing them up. If so, then there’s no easy way out of this predicament — ‘cheap’ supercharging has basically been a financially un-sustainable ‘lead-loss’”. This might not be the most popular solution, but a small, 60% efficient, solid-oxide fuel cell running on natural gas could provide electricity for peak shaving and eliminating demand charges. I’m not sure how it would pencil out if it was run intermittently, as opposed to 24/7. On a TOU plan the fuel cell could run all the time during peak hours, and it could run intermittently during off-peak hours only when many cars are charging at once (ie: big travel holidays like Thanksgiving) in order to avoid demand charges being imposed for the next 6 to 12 months. The carbon footprint of a Supercharger station that partially or fully uses electricity from an on-site fuell cell might even be at par or even lower than local grid electricity. The solid-oxide fuel cell matches the efficiency of a combined cycle natural gas power plant, but doesn’t have any transmission losses. If the carbon footprint of the fuel cell is higher than the… Read more »

Actually it is easy and Tesla did it years ago at one supercharger location. They put a battery in and chopped demand peaks greatly.

Look it up in the archives.

Well the ‘solution’ might be something like that. (or big battery banks and solar panels) …. but none of this would be cheap — adding considerable cost to be recovered at the supercharger pump.

“fuel cell” is blasphemy in Musk church. So no, it is not allowed! You must call it names only, period.

Just imagine if you allow such blasphemy. Somebody may say why would we need to carry around these heavy, slow charging, and super expensive batteries at all, we may go with smallish battery and put the same fc inside the car. What then??

First off, your numbers are way off.
Our MS is 85 KWH and gets 250 MPC. Assume 90 KWH (always a lose), so 90 * .31 ~= $28 which means $28/250 = .11 / mile.
Competitor cars get around 15-20 mpg with gas at around $2.0 / gal. =~ .13 – .1 / mile.

So, in comparison, .31/KWH is roughly what MS competitor cars are paying.

Of course, at our house, we pay .08 / kwh, so quite the difference.

I ran my numbers on a highway comparison. Using a better route planner at 70 mph target speed on the highway for wh/mile. Tesla model 3 is compared to a 45 mpg highway car. Tesla model X is compared to a 28 mpg highway suv. Both came out to right at $4.20/gge.

If I run Model S 85 ($.31/kwh, max speed 70 mph, 377wh/mile, 55 deg F, 5 mph HW) against a 38 mpg highway lincoln MKZ, it works out closer to $4.50/gge.

Using Model 3’s rated range based on 4 miles / kWh, the latest average new car fuel efficiency of 37.7 miles / gallon from here: https://www.bts.gov/content/average-fuel-efficiency-us-light-duty-vehicles and 33.7 kWh / gallon gasoline, I pencil out $0.31 / kWh to be equivalent to $2.92175 gas

My TOU rate is $0.158566 / kWh (average of summer/non-summer rates) and even just charging overnight and weekends on 110v is enough to make my ~60 mile round-trip daily commute. The actual gas mileage of the car I came from was 33.5 miles / gallon. I’ll pay the equivalent of $1.328 gas in my old car.

I drive ~17000 miles a year. that will cost me $673.91. At current (low) gas prices, my old car would cost $1584.16 assuming gas and electricity prices stay constant relative to each other (yeah, right) over 10 years I’ll save $9,102.5

I’ll be getting workplace charging soon, though, so that will be more like a savings of $15,000 over 10 years. (after I pay for the wiring and charger)

Did you include charging loss that’s different for each charging method? But yeah, in general Tesla 3 would do quite well.

“Using Model 3’s rated range based on 4 miles / kWh,….”

A model 3 with the aero wheels, … a better route planner says you need to be planning on max speed of 62 mph in order to come in at 4 miles/kwh.

/my car will beat 50 mpg at that speed… so that would put $.31/kwh at about $3.90/gge.

My commute is 26-30 miles of freeway that cuts through (or around) downtown Los Angeles. I tend to average under 30 mph unless it’s a holiday. 😐

Elon: Man, the Superchargers are an ever-growing drain on our expense sheet. We need to jack up the rates to stop the bleeding.
Random exec: How about we increase rates around 20%? That should put a good dent in our SC costs.
Elon: 23% sounds better, but let’s actually jack it up to 33%, because some bratty entitled owners will cry bloody murder about the 33% rate increase. Then when we back it down to the 23% we actually want, they will actually be happy paying for the lower increase.
Tesla execs: Great idea!

At least they have a SC network to talk about.
Here is latest from GM on the subject: ……………….

Funny, I just said the same thing above, before reading your post.

You know what they say about great minds. 😀

“Supercharging could end up costing nearly as much as gassing up in some markets.” GASP!!!!! it might cost as much to be cleaner for the environment?!?!? Any good capitalist won’t accept that! /s/

So the article is confusing…….does the “10% dial back” mean they are going from an average of 33% to 23% OR 10% of the 33% which would only take it from 33% to 30%? Regardless – they are still raising rates and that will have an impact on the people who charge there just because it may be cheaper that charging alternatives.

I frankly have had my Model 3 since May and I have yet to use a Tesla SC.

Bill

1. Goes back to my ‘unsustainable lead loss” — it’ll be $.07/ kwh — till it’s not. (also known as “bait and switch”)

2. If you can afford a big battery BEV, then it’s highly likely you live in a 2 or 3 car household (one of which is not a BEV). Why pay $10, $15, or $20k extra to haul around a battery that you almost never use?

— So Ubers, taxis, apartment dwellers are now off the list of potential customers for Tesla? Maybe so — and it doesn’t bode well.

Price increasing is paying for the expansion and reducing crowd. That is the problem with SC network. If it is too cheap, then people abuse it. If it is too expensive, then people whine about it.

The problem is really all those “unlimited” lifer with their Model S/X. Those “car sharing” service based Model S/X have been abusing this since 2013…

It is time to end all “free supercharging”. Granted, it would be legally impossible for Tesla to do so on those early lifers.

What happened to all their original claims?

Where’s the “unlimited, free forever” charging promise – “powered by sunlight” (solar roofs on every SC station)?

Tesla and Musk kept promising this for years.

> “unlimited, free forever” charging promise

And so far honored on those vehicles that had that included.

> “powered by sunlight” (solar roofs on every SC station)

Show me where he promised that for every station?

Trollftf is an admitted Tesla-shorter who doesn’t even drive a plug-in car.

So what was the increase? Is it 33% less 10% of that number/

To compare to the other potential major charging network/ ecosphere …
Electrify America’s current pricing page: https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing

“12 [footnote] Pricing and fees subject to change. Session Fee: Pricing and fees subject to change. Charging cost: Electrify America’s pricing will vary by region. Actual charging cost are displayed at each charging station. Idle fee: Current idle fee is $0.40 per minute and starts 10 minutes after the charging session is complete. Pricing and fees subject to change.”
https://i.imgur.com/ZZ67s1I.jpg

What a bunch of privileged whiners.

I wish they listen about the software V9 and how horrible is for Model S and X. It was a UI downgrade.

Can’t believe this really. In the UK is it 60% of people can charge at home at like 3-4p per mile?
A lot of these people will be buying Teslas. Personally I can’t quite afford a Tesla yet but when I can I will rarely use Superchargers so they could charge 50p per kWh for all I care…
£1 per kWh wouldn’t stop me buying a Tesla!