Battery Suppliers Can’t Keep Up With Outrageous Demand For Porsche Panamera Plug-In Hybrid

Porsche Mission E

JAN 12 2018 BY MARK KANE 76

2018 Porsche Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid Sport Turismo

Porsche is struggling with limited battery supplies for its latest Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid that sells like hot cakes, taking 60% of sales for the Panamera lineup in Europe.

2018 Porsche Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid Sport Turismo

We are a little surprised, because the Porsche is equipped with a relatively small pack of 14.1 kWh. Even at 8,000 sales annually, that would amount to less than 113 MWh.

Gerd Rupp, head of Porsche’s Leipzig plant said:

“At present we are able to meet customer demand well,” he said in an interview, adding about 8,000 Panamera hybrids would be built this year. “But there are limits because we are dependent on the capacities of battery suppliers.”

“As a buyer we had originally projected different volumes (of battery systems needed),” Rupp said. “The effects can be seen in longer delivery times of currently 3-4 months for Panamera hybrid models.”

If such troubles appears at the early stage of the Porsche lineup electrification plan, then we can just imagine what will happen when most of the models are all-electric or plug-in hybrid.

According to the article, Porsche has shortages in specialists too: mechatronic engineers, software experts and tool mechanics for the expansion of production.

“It’s becoming increasingly more difficult to find the right experts” for Leipzig with adjacent suppliers and a BMW plant competing for hirings. As a result, Porsche is working to improve the skills of its existing staff at a new training center at Leipzig, Rupp said.

“We cannot completely rely on the open job market.”

Source: Reuters

Categories: Porsche

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76 Comments on "Battery Suppliers Can’t Keep Up With Outrageous Demand For Porsche Panamera Plug-In Hybrid"

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vonk

It’s the battery, you fool.

Wonder what Elon is thinking when reading this article.

Al

He’s thinking: “Well, I can’t make any money selling cars, naybe I’ll just sell them batteries!”

floydboy

Why would he think that, he makes a crap ton of money selling cars?

zzzzzzzzzz

He makes crap load of money selling shares to fools, who expect to find greater fools to sell them for more later.

Cars are not where he makes money – it is where he looses money. Not his own of course, but money of these fools. Couple of billions last year. It is all in SEC fillings for those who can read. Fools don’t read, too many letters.

Mister G

Are you President _ _ _ _hole?

Ache B

Once again president Trump the genius that he is gets the leftards all spun up with one word.

menorman

No one would care if he was a racist at home, but the problem is that he’s using his racism to drive policies that affect everyone and generally amount to a dereliction of duty. As long as that is happening, everyone has a duty to point it out.

Hart Ed

Strange times. If I was the leader of a sh**hole nation, I would be absolutely silent right now….but NO….these leaders seem to be self-identifying as sh**hole countries, and they are offended.

L'amata

Man You are really Smart ! Do You Ever know your stuff !.. W0W

Nick

Haha!

Hauer

Wow. Suggest you buy a brain, learn reading, an thentry again.

Sean Wagner

Twice in 2017, Elon Musk acquired Tesla stock.

See http://ir.tesla.com/sec.cfm?DocType=Section16&DocTypeExclude=&SortOrder=FilingDate%26amp%3B%2337%3B20Descending&Year=&PageNum=1&FormatFilter=&CIK=1318605&NumberPerPage=50

They still have a healthy gross margin on the cars they sell. I take it it’s SG&A you have a problem with? See [page 5]

http://ir.tesla.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1564590-17-21343&CIK=1318605

Cecil T

Those who can read SEC filings generally understand growth companies.

Jason
Car companies are a money making machine, anyone would be working hard to protect their business. Take a dealership as an example. If they sell 1000 cars per year with just a $100 profit per car, that is a $100,000 profit business. I highly doubt they only make $100 profit. Looked at another way if the average vehicle price is $35k then that is a $35mil business, now that is not a bad business by anyone’s books. If the profit is more likely $500-$1000 then your dealership owner has a nice little earner. If they sell more like 2000-5000 vehicles per year then your looking at $70-$175mil turn over business. The manufacturers are getting their cut as well, hence you are seeing companies like Nissan being $5bil companies. Everyone who invests in Tesla is betting on them getting well established and becoming profitable, they have to build the business before that can happen (how far would they get if the only service centre was in Freemont CA?). Even if just 10% of reservations turns into sales for the base model that is $1.4bil in turn over. Reportedly Tesla has better than 20% profit margin, so they are looking at $280mil… Read more »
Get Real

Elon doesn’t think that.

AI is a serial anti-Tesla troll and jealous as hell at Tesla and Elon’s success.

Get Real

Got cut off there.

And of course, resident shill for Big Oil and foolcells and all around dbag zzzz is just sliming these threads on behalf of his pay masters.

Six Electrics

I wish all EV supporters could remain as classy as Get Real.

L'amata

Hybrids are High Maintainence because they are parts Intensive ,so it opens up a great Parts & service Business after the sale.I wouldn’t even dream of owning one, Even at Half Price. They could only become a Nightmare ..BTW..Don’t believe a thing the ICE makers tell you, No matter what!

BenG

10 million Toyota hybrid owners call BS on that.

Tom

My understanding is that the Prius is the most reliable vehicle made (or at least nearly the most reliable)

L'amata

TOYOTA NOT PORSCHE…Prius is good but has it’s Issues ,Porsche is NEW at It , I would not Buy One .Porsche Is a BS Auto Maker..They have their inherent problems to begin with , a Hybrid should me a NIGHTMARE !!!..Go ahead Buy One!

So it seems, you are simply suggesting: ‘Don’t be an Early Adopter, of New Tech!’, particularly, in the case of this specific Porsche Panamera Hybrid (PHEV), at least! Is that correct?

Or, are you just a Hatin’ on All OEM’s today?

AK

Porsche has one of the highest build qualities of any car manufacturer. Where do u get these wrong things u state so “matter of factly” from?

Cecil T

Plus Porsche has been making hybrids for 7 years, so they’re not exactly new at it.

vonk

I’ve owned 2 Prius. The last one new and drove it up to 340k km’s on the odo. Only regular maintenance.

Jason

If Prius is most reliable and most complicated (which it has to be with two power trains), then everyone driving the normal Toyota ICE should be asking the serious question, “why is my Toyota less reliable than the Prius if it ONLY has the ICE component”?

ModernMarvelFan

One of the major automakers who convert to more EVs will have eventually build their own battery factory or invest significantly into a partnership with one of the big battery suppliers in order to keep the supply going.

I am actually surprised that Nissan gave up on that despite the claim of wanting to be #1 EV seller in the world.

Pushmi-Pullyu

I also am surprised that Nissan sold off its battery factories. Seems like that’s going in the wrong direction. But perhaps they decided the existing factories were not well suited for upgrade to produce they kind of batteries they now want for their EVs.

jamcl3

Maybe Nissan did own the intellectual property required to make competitive batteries? LG Chem had better secret sauce. Panasonic has perhaps the best? Time will tell. Maybe you noticed that the Leaf had serious problems with battery degradation and cold weather performance for some drivers?

Someone out there

Why should they have their own battery factory when they outsource everything else?

Tom

Even though it’s tight suppl now, I see this industry moving the way of the PC industry. Once upon a time there was IBM and IBM made virtually all of their own components. But eventually ‘IBM clones’ came along and all of a sudden there were hundreds of PC companies. After more than 20 years of shake out the final result was computer companies that made none (or nearly none) of their own components. The companies designed, assembled, and sold the PCs but did not make the parts. Even Apple started using Intel processors and abandoned their own processors. The ‘make your own stuff’ business model was replaced by specialty suppliers outsource model. Same for smart phones. Does Apple even ‘make’ anything anymore? Even they realized finally that proprietary parts were mostly a bad idea. The fascinating part of all this is it lowers the barrier to entry for ALL auto manufacturers. They can quickly deploy new models with what effectively amount to COTS (commercial off the shelf) guts of the beast.

alohart

Your Apple analogy isn’t a good one. Apple has moved away from commodity chips in its iPhones, iPads, Apple Watches, and Apple TV’s instead designing its own which gives it a significant advantage. Apple has never used its own CPU’s in its desktop computers instead using commodity CPU’s designed by Motorola, PowerPC, and now Intel.

So Apple’s example doesn’t provide much guidance about which direction EV manufacturers should choose.

Yup! People don’t seem to know or remember Commodore Computers, Toaster (Video Editing Controller Tool), and other things that used the 68000 series Motorola CPU!

Apples big deal, was their special Proprietary ROM’s, which held their Secret Sauce! Also, for a short time frame window, back in 1994-1995-1996 ish, they ‘Opened’ that up to other players, which lead to a start of ‘Apple Clones!’ Some even had multiple CPU’s on the Motherboard!

I worked in a job at a business that sold Digital Video & Audio Equipment, and was their Trainer & Customer Support for the Video side, at the time! Boss bought one of those Multiple CPU MAC ‘APPLE CLONES’, back then!

Jason

I love my Amiga, wish I could afford the Toaster, what a great product at the time. Motorola certainly had the better architecture, but IBM (and clones) captured the critical business market. It is actually impressive how Apple has done so well, given it has kept such a tight reign on their products. I think they got in good with education and their desktop publishing certainly differentiated them from everything else at the time.
I do miss my Newton, though. That was the best product which they should have kept developing, iPads would be incredible today if Newton had kept evolving.

John Doe
There will most likely be a statement, regarding a battery factory this year. There have been talks periodically since early last year. As I understands it, it’s more to do with flexibility, and control technology – then lack of batteries. Supply and demand will control production volumes, no matter where it’s from. There are a lot the companies have to work out between themselves, in regards to investment, technology, location, internal design, volumes, when . . if.. There have been talks to a large control and automation company. There have been drawn plans. There have been talks to a large chemical company, and a battery company. If the deal goes through, it will be a huge cooperation. There are advantages and disadvantages in owning a battery factory. If they have volumes large enough, there will be a bit cheaper to own the whole supply chain themselves. To make batteries, volumes is key. That means it will be a huge investment. They will have to make a lot of batteries just to make up for the investment. With the number of EVs comming, they must have a potential volume that is huge – so I think we’ll see a statement this… Read more »
menorman

If a supplier can provide a better battery for cheaper, why bother hanging on to the factory producing the outdated option?

John Doe

I don’t understand why they just made a purchase contract for 5000?
They must have seen the advantages, and the rise in hybrid sales?
Price on resupply batteries are probably a few percent more expensive as well.

Jules

Even Tesla doesn‘t produce the cells, it is just in the same building. So will Nissan.

It‘s like VW negotiates for a good(and most important stable) cobalt price for its western factories, although the sells will be produced at factories of LG/SDI…(they also got an agreement with a mining company & CATL for chinese market). That‘s probably the same for Nissan, Hyundai etc.

Porsche didn‘t expect this demand, like Hyundai did for the Ioniq Electric for example. The Diesel scandal may be a reason. So the just-in-time supply chain gets in trouble short term. That doesn‘t mean they don‘t get enough cells for mission e.

Pushmi-Pullyu

The difference is that at Gigafactory One, it is Tesla which controls the rate of production, not Panasonic. A lot of Tesla bashers want us to believe that Gigafactory One is just a building in which Tesla and Panasonic happen to be co-located, but have independent production. This simply isn’t so. For instance, it’s Tesla which is supplying the raw/processed materials which go into making the battery cells, not Panasonic. You can easily find articles about Tesla negotiating for lithium supply. If Tesla was merely buying Panasonic’s output, then Tesla wouldn’t need to do that.

DJ

So then it’s Tesla to blame for the long wait for a Powerwall 2 and not Panasonic. Thanks for clearing that up.

Jules
Have you read my post? It is not about bashing Tesla. I‘d love to have my M3 today. But it is comparable. Like the example of VW. Panasonic like LG, SDI etc. produce the cells, but the OEMs negotiate for raw materials for the cells, because it is important for their production. That is modern supply chain management. Maybe not for those first BEVs, they all planned to produce just 10.000 times a year. But for bigger capacities. Tesla‘s gigafactory is more integrated, no transport costs between cell and module production. They planed earlier and bigger. But essentially it‘s not that different. Panasonic produces and develops more or less independent(except of customizing – same for the other OEMs – and they depend on Tesla sales with such a big capacity built up). They want to keep their crown jewels/know how. And Nissan switched to LG, because they were not competitive, even affiliated company Renault didn‘t buy. That is the main problem for the OEM: they invest a lot in an own cell production, cell company x has a big breakthrough and you are not competitive anymore. It makes sense to seperate this. Also cell suppliers can have more b2b relations… Read more »
Jules

BTW OEMs can invest in new independent supplier factories, too, like Apple does. I can imagine we will see this for some OEMs to help suppliers to rapidly build new or expand factories. These can be build in just two years, if they really want and it is not in a desert region without infrastructure.

Did you not remember that California WAS a competitor in the GF1 run up?

Doggydogworld

Tesla supplies no raw materials. Panasonic doesn’t even use raw materials, they buy pre-processed powders from companies like Sumitomo Metal Mining.

Tesla and Panasonic agree on the rate of production in advance. It’s a pretty standard volume purchase agreement.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Porsche is struggling with limited battery supplies…”

Pretty soon that sort of thing is going to be so commonplace, for every auto maker except BYD and Tesla, that it won’t be news anymore.

“Gerd Rupp, head of Porsche’s Leipzig plant said: ‘But there are limits because we are dependent on the capacities of battery suppliers’.”

Well, duh. Maybe you should consider building your own battery factories so that you can control your own battery supply, as Tesla and BYD have done. In fact, maybe you should have already been well along in the process of doing that.

Spider-Dan

Mitsubishi has partial ownership (i.e. partnership) with their battery supplier, and their lack of battery supplies supposedly delayed the Outlander PHEV’s USA release for 6 years. Meanwhile, GM – the top selling EV manufacturer in America – does not own a single battery plant and has not faced any battery shortages.

Bad planning is bad planning.

JyChevyVolt

GM screwed up by over ordering batteries for the Gen 1 Volt. Luckily, LG bailed them out.

Sometimes, things happen.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“GM – the top selling EV manufacturer in America – does not own a single battery plant and has not faced any battery shortages.”

Realistically, how long is that situation going to last? I guess that’s working well so long as GM has only a couple of PEVs in production in modest numbers, but what happens as PEVs become more popular, and GM needs to crank up its production, or respond quickly to a surge in demand?

I doubt GM is still going to be satisfied with depending on LG by 2020, at the latest.

* * * * *

Here’s what Jay Cole had to say on that subject:

“There is no battery supplier that will let a company make a set order, then guarantee 2X expansion of that order over the short term/‘just in time’ model if that OEM finds unexpected demand. Especially not LG Chem, who is first to market with inexpensive/2nd gen batteries and currently has ~21 different OEM contracts. They would of course say they will do their best to oblige as best they can, but that would be it… there is no leverage.” — Jay Cole, comment at InsideEVs.com, May 30, 2017

http://insideevs.com/nissan-close-to-exiting-battery-business/#comment-1214733

BenG

There is no company that supplies their own batteries that can double their rate of battery production for their own needs in the short term over what was planned.

It takes time to build out capacity, whether you’re building your own batteries or not.

Mint

It takes more time for suppliers to ramp because they don’t want to be screwed if the client bails (whether due to lack of demand or a competing supplier). It’s also difficult to agree on terms for long term deals.

Tesla’s whole raison d’etre (and company value) is based on rapidly ramping up production. Playing it safe is 90% as bad as going bankrupt, so there’s no point. Relying on suppliers to increase production wouldn’t cut it.

If you want to be a leader for a product with this kind of impact (such as doubling world production of rechargeable batteries in a few years), you’ll need to have a big hand in getting that production capacity built.

Vexar

Based on these figures:
https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

I’m not seeing your math as GM being the top EV manufacturer in the US.
49k for Tesla
44k for GM (including that Cadillac figure waay down at the bottom and the beloved Spark EV)

Quoting GM is like quoting Nero, the Roman Emperor. You can do it, but there are repercussions to how your words are taken, and, realistically, are the quotes any good in the first place?

Six Electrics

The Bolt was the best selling EV in the US for Q4. That may be the source of that claim.

Vexar

Your statement is correct. However, that does not earn the title presumed. Also, like Porsche, GM is battery-constrained. Or ICE-dominant.
I mean, go to the Test Track at Epcot and experience GM’s attitude towards EVs, firsthand. They won’t talk to you about them, they won’t admit that the ride is all-electric, and when you try to customize an EV in the build center for the ride, you get a goofy, eco-box number that seems like a sad compromise in nearly every vector. Their interior showroom experience puts the Bolt in the back corner and unlike the rest, you can’t get into it for anything. Oh, but enjoy taking your picture with an ICE.

Mint

Of course there’s no battery shortages when you predetermine a low sales target.

They’re limiting supply of the Bolt outside of CARB states, and stopped taking orders for the Ampera-e.

It’s a battery (or more accurately EV power train) shortage, and the blame is either on LG for not wanting to produce more or GM for not wanting to guarantee more purchases.

EVer

Don’t know how bad a** this hybrid is; but, somebody wants to buy them and will pay the price; that’s gotta tell you there’s something good about coupling an electric motor to your gasser…wouldn’t be the low end torque now would it?…I’m thinking, as an old road racer, that all that torque off the corners is real racing goodness.

Pushmi-Pullyu

That’s surprising to me, because when the Panamera Hybrid was new, it got “dinged” for having very poor acceleration, and used wide gear ratio differences to achieve a high fuel efficiency. The joke at the time was that the Panamera was “The most expensive way to save a few dollars on fuel.” 😉

Perhaps Porsche changed the powertrain design to give the car better acceleration and speed?

Yup! Keeping up with Porsche has not been as easy, but they did mention that this years Panamera PHEV had a new naming scheme, because of the upgrades they made to it! A search on that and 10-20 minutes should get us the facts!

SouthWaves
EVer you’re 100% right “Don’t know how bad a** this hybrid is; but, somebody wants to buy them and will pay the price; that’s gotta tell you there’s something good about coupling an electric motor to your gasser…wouldn’t be the low end torque now would it?…I’m thinking, as an old road racer, that all that torque off the corners is real racing goodness” Look what the ICE Loving media has to say about this PHEV AUTOBLOG “…Left foot off the brake. There’s a pause. A split second of nothing. And then your entire world hits you in the back of the head as the PDK&’s clutches slam together with a bang and the Panamera’s four enormous Michelin’s claw at the asphalt. First gear is over before I can peel my skull from the headrest. And second gear pulls just as hard” CAR AND DRIVER “As cars go, this Panamera is pretty close to total bliss” “….The car fires out from every apex with the ferocity of a round from an assault rifle” TOP GEAR “The Panamera does indeed teleport itself and all its occupants from wherever you are to the apex of the next bend. It’s massively quick” MOTORTREND “In… Read more »
Herr Holle

Porsche’s current problem is rather underpricing of the hybrid than undersupply of batteries. Economics 101.

Roy_H

Interesting… Seems like they did not anticipate the popularity of PHEV and now announce delay so impatient buyers will purchase non-PHEV version and Porsche can reduce inventory of the harder to sell pure ICE version.

I bet Porsche’s Mission E series sell like hot cakes and then they will have trouble unloading these.

Pushmi-Pullyu

You’re ignoring reality.

The reality is that Tesla was repeatedly supply constrained by Panasonic being either unable or unwilling to ramp up battery production as fast as Tesla needed.

The same thing is beginning to be seen industry-wide, as reported here:

https://insideevs.com/battery-cell-suppliers-might-not-be-able-to-keep-up-with-growing-demand/

Much as many people would like to, we can’t handwave away the very important difference between the EV makers being able to decide for themselves how much battery supply to build, and being dependent on battery manufacturers who have proven over and over that they are not going to build out supply in advance of demand.

EV advocates seem to have forgotten that just a few years ago, there was a glut on the li-ion battery market; an oversupply which caused prices to plunge, drove Envia out of business, and put A123 on the brink of bankruptcy.

But we can be sure the battery manufacturers have not forgotten this. That’s why they’re so reluctant to build out supply in advance of demand, and why EV makers are going to have to spend their own money building battery supply, to ensure their supply will increase as fast as they need over the coming years.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Hmmm, I seem to have responded to a post from another discussion thread. My bad!

Roy_H

Yeah, I’ve done that too. At least it’s applicable here.

BenG

A123 went bankrupt because of a manufacturing flaw that forced them to them recall a massive and hugely expensive number of batteries, not because of any over-supply situation.

Ambulator

And Envia never had a product to sell.

But…But…They Were the ‘Holy Grail’ of 400 Wh/Kg Cells! Or, the ‘Envy of’ Big Oil!

William

+1

Mike

What surprises me is the range of FUD coming out of automakers. Prices won’t drop after 2020 Nobody wants EVs. 30,000$ wundercars….

Well, I still remember even Elon mentioning that he dud not thing he would make an EV priced Lower than $35,000!

His logic was that the ‘Tesla Network’ ride sharing service would make you enough money to make your car payment! But he forgets that finance companies base their loan decisions on what the buyer can pay, not what a venture that never was before, ‘Might Generate’ for cash flow!

So, if 2025 does not see a $25,000 or lower priced Tesla EV, there will be space their for Chinese, or other EV makers to fill that gap!

Actually, it would be interesting to see a 200 mile range ‘Tesla Motorcycle!’ If they could do that, and be priced below the Zero DS, it would be decent competition to ZERO MOTORS INC.

However, with the Model 3, Model Y, Tesla Pickup, Tesla Semi, Tesla Roadster, already spoken for, and some Tesla Mini Bus in the wings, it does not seem urgent for Tesla to move down price levels just yet!

Just what WOULD a ‘Cheap’ Tesla Look Like?

“he dud not thing he” – Huh? (Should be): ‘he did not think he’

Nix

In other news, also the dog ate their homework…

Chris O

Outrageous demand? This blog’s sales score card registered all of 18 sales in the US last year.

That is pretty outrageous but not in a good way…

Some Guy

They simply cannot make enough for export to the US, as everything is needed to keep marketshare in Belgium, Norway, Natherlands and Germany. In some countries the Hybrid has over 80% share of the Panameras. But don’t worry, next June Norway will cut the incentives for PHEV and just promote BEV, which makes hybrids less attractive. This will allow Porsche to divert the now Norwegian Panamera market allocation to elsewhere. (There is probably a similar move in Belgium).

Chris O

Hmm, Porsche sold 407 in 2015 and 393 in 2016 so it all adds up as a car that was never a hot seller in the US and lost all consumer interest in 2017.

Guess it takes European style heavy handed tax/incentive systems to kindle serious consumer interest for PHEVs. BMW shows a similar pattern

Martin T.

Whats with people buying Porsche SUV’s ? That is like buying a VW in a cheap slutty dress and paying a fortune for the badges. People certainly are weird – like Porsche management who were moaning and groaning about Tesla taking their sales. Now they have a chance and batteries are an issue. German organisation what else can one expect 😉 LOL!

Hauer

Outrageous demand? Really? At less than 1 per hour?