Toyota Introduces Production Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus Sora

MAY 13 2018 BY MARK KANE 58

Toyota began in Japan production and sales of hydrogen fuel cell buses called Sora that share technology with the Mirai.

Toyota “Sora” hydrogen fuel cell Bus

As in case with other FCVs, production volume is very small and Toyota announced that just over 100 units will be delivered in the Tokyo metropolitan area by 2020 for the Olympic Games.

Sora is equipped with two FC stacks – 114 kW each that provide electricity for the two 113 kW AC synchronous electric motors. For the small drive battery, Toyota is still using NiMH.

The 10.525 m bus fits 79 people (22 seated + 56 standing + driver).

Range on the 10 tanks of hydrogen (600 liters working at 70 MPa nominal pressure) is probably comparable to conventional buses.

An interesting emergency feature is the external power supply system – there is a special inverter, connected to the vehicle through the CHAdeMO, that provides up to 9 kW of power (it can deliver up to 235 kWh, which sounds like a day or two of juice, depending on usage).

Read Also – ABB Hints At Big EV Bus Project – 35 Vehicles, 8 450 kW Chargers

Will this type of bus be a viable solution for mass transport? We doubt it.

Toyota “Sora” hydrogen fuel cell Bus

Press release:

Toyota Launches Production Model “Sora” FC Bus

  • First fuel cell bus in Japan to receive vehicle type certification
  • Over 100 buses expected to be introduced by 2020 mainly within the Tokyo metropolitan area

Toyota City, Japan, March 28, 2018―Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) announces that sales began on March 7 of the “Sora*1,” the first fuel cell bus (FC bus) to receive vehicle type certification in Japan.

Toyota “Sora” hydrogen fuel cell Bus

Toyota expects to introduce over 100 fuel cell buses, mainly within the Tokyo metropolitan area, ahead of the Olympic and Paralympic Games Tokyo 2020. As the number of FC buses in operation within the metropolitan area increases, Toyota anticipates greater awareness of the vehicle among the general public.

Last year, Toyota launched the “Start Your Impossible” global corporate initiative to transform the company from an automobile company to a mobility service company. This was guided by the company’s desire to contribute to the improvement and enhancement of customers’ lives and society as a whole through support of the creation of a more inclusive and sustainable society in which everyone feels inspired to challenge his or her impossible. In developing the Sora, Toyota has sought to design buses that provide customers with freedom of mobility and become enduring town icons.

Toyota “Sora” hydrogen fuel cell Bus

Toyota aims to create a bus that works for and supports society, so the Toyota Fuel Cell System (TFCS) has been leveraged in the Sora for its environmental friendliness and ability to serve as a power source in the event of a disaster. The Sora features human-centric universal design and functions, reflecting Toyota’s desire that when riding the Sora, mobility no longer presents an impediment to customers challenging the impossible, which helps enable them to achieve their dreams.

The Sora offers the following specific features

High environmental performance and the joy that is derived from FC technology

  • The Toyota Fuel Cell System (TFCS), which was developed for the Mirai fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV), has been leveraged to realize high environmental performance with no CO2 emissions or Substances of Concern (SoC) emitted when in operation, as well as quiet comfort with minimal vibration.
  • The Sora is equipped with a high-capacity external power output device, which can provide high output and a large capacity of electricity supply (9 kW maximum output, and electricity supply of 235 kWh*2) and has potential use as an emergency power source following disasters.

Toyota “Sora” hydrogen fuel cell Bus

Universal design and function that provides everyone with greater freedom of movement

  • Horizontal seats with an automatic storage mechanism (first in Japan*3)The Sora’s seats are automatically stored when not in use, improving comfort and convenience for passengers with strollers and wheelchairs as well as other passengers.
  • Field of vision support camera system (bus peripheral monitoring function) (first in Japan*3)Eight high-definition cameras fitted inside and outside the vehicle detect pedestrians and bicyclists around the bus providing a field of vision support camera system. When at bus stops, the system warns the driver of surrounding pedestrians and bicyclists through sound notifications and images thereby improving safety.
  • Acceleration control function delivers improved safety (first in Japan*3)The acceleration control function suppresses sudden acceleration and enables smooth acceleration from complete stops in consideration of the safety of standing passengers. Also, as the bus is not motor operated, there is no gear shifting, resulting in minimal lurching.

Design

  • The design pursues stereoscopic shaping that significantly differs from the hexahedron (box shape) of conventional buses. It also uses LED technology for the front and rear lights. Such design features make the FC bus instantly recognizable.
Main specifications
Vehicle Name Sora
Length / width / height 10,525 / 2,490 / 3,350 mm
Capacity (seated, standing, and driver) 79 (22+56+1)
FC stack Name (type) Toyota FC Stack (solid polymer electrolyte)
Maximum output 114 kW × 2 (155PS × 2)
Motor Type AC synchronous
Maximum output 113 kW × 2 (154PS × 2)
Maximum torque 335 N・m × 2 (34.2 kgf・m × 2)
High-pressure hydrogen tank Number of tanks (nominal working pressure) 10 (70 MPa)
Tank internal volume 600 liters
Drive battery Type Nickel-metal hydride
External power supply system*2 Maximum output / power supply amount 9 kW / 235 kWh
*1Sora
an acronym for Sky, Ocean, River, Air, representing the earth’s water cycle.

*2The power that can be supplied and the power amount may differ, depending on the performance of the power supply unit, amount of hydrogen remaining, and power consumption. External power output device sold separately.

*3As of March 28 (according to Toyota Motor Corporation).

Categories: Bus, Toyota

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58 Comments on "Toyota Introduces Production Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus Sora"

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Ad van der Meer
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Ad van der Meer

600 liters under 700 bar. The Toyota Mirai has 120 liters, so 600 liters is about 25 kg’s of hydrogen. I’ve seen hydrogen consumption for busses as low as 8 kg / 100 km and as high as 18 kg / 100 km. When I average those two numbers it’s 13 kg / 100 km or a range of 200 km (120 mi) for a hydrogen bus.
BYD has electric busses that have a range of 300 km’s.

I am not impressed Toyota.

Susan K
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Susan K

You’ll be pleased to hear that BYD is going Hydrogen, along with all of China! Search “Made In China 2025 fuel cell” (PS: Toyota doesn’t care what you think)
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/byd-and-us-hybrid-to-develop-hydrogen-electric-bus-for-honolulu-airport/

Ad van der Meer
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Ad van der Meer

I am aware that Toyota doesn’t care about my opinion, but electric busses are winning in China. In 2017 almost 90k electric busses took to the chinese streets. Hydrogen busses in significant numbers are yet to be planned/produced.

Once operators find out the horrible efficiency of hydrogen busses they’ll come to their senses.

Quite ironic of Hawai to chose hydrogen over electric. If there is one state that can not afford to waste energy…

Susan K
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Susan K

“Hydrogen busses in significant numbers are yet to be planned/produced”

False. You really haven’t a clue what you’re talking about here. The debate in China now is whether the new energy vehicle fleet is 1/3 H2, 2/3 EV or the opposite. When EV fans finally acknowledge this maybe some progress can be made. Until then, pffft.
http://www.ihfca.org.cn/file/FCV%20Tech%20Roadmap.pdf

Pushmi-Pullyu
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Pushmi-Pullyu

Please stop posting “hydrogen economy” fake news here.

Denying reality (and physics, and science, and economics) does not actually change reality (and physics, and science, and economics).

Anyone who has any question that the “hydrogen economy” is a complete and utter hoax should read this:

“Why hydrogen fuel cell cars are not competitive — from a hydrogen fuel cell expert”
http://energypost.eu/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-competitive-hydrogen-fuel-cell-expert/

Pushmi-Pullyu
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Pushmi-Pullyu

This is clearly Big Oil “alternative facts” and propaganda, an attempt to promote the “hydrogen economy” hoax.

Anyone who doubts it’s a hoax, or believes there is any possibility that hydrogen-powered cars or buses will replace battery-powered cars or buses, should read the following:

“Why hydrogen fuel cell cars are not competitive — from a hydrogen fuel cell expert”

http://energypost.eu/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-competitive-hydrogen-fuel-cell-expert/

Pushmi-Pullyu
Guest
Pushmi-Pullyu

This is clearly Big Oil propaganda, an attempt to promote the “hydrogen economy” hoax.

Anyone who doubts that this is a hoax, or thinks it’s possible that someday hydrogen-powered cars or buses might be able to compete with either gasoline-powered cars or diesel-powered buses, should read the following:

“Why hydrogen fuel cell cars are not competitive — from a hydrogen fuel cell expert”

https://tinyurl.com/gnoz3ta

olaf
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olaf

Read the comments on your own quoted article please. Provide scientific evidence for your statements.

AnonyMouse
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AnonyMouse

Pu-Pu, that linked story you posted is absolute garbage and BS. The so-called “hydrogen fuel cell expert” is a blogger on CleanTechnica with absolutely no scientific or engineering background or degrees. Once again, Pu-Pu posts FUD and fake news. 🤦🏻‍♂️

The following are quotes from your link:
“You won’t even go 100 miles on current tech hydrogen tanks that are still safe to carry around in a car”

“Fuel cells wear out crazy fast and are hard to regenerate”

Really? That is complete bulls**t! The current crop of hydrogen FCVs have a range of over 300 miles, and their fuel cell systems have an 8-year/100,000-mile warranty.

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/omms-s/T-MMS-16Mirai/pdf/2016%20MiraiWMG.pdf

Pushmi-Pullyu
Guest
Pushmi-Pullyu

You’re correct about the range, and that was wrong at the time the article was published. The Mirai, with a range of more than 300 miles, went into production in 2015; the article was published in 2016.

Re the assertion “Fuel cells wear out crazy fast”… I don’t think we know just how fast mass produced fuel cell stacks will wear out. The Mirai has only been on the market three years, and from what I’ve read, there is indeed a severe problem with the fuel cell stacks developing cracks over time.

Perhaps you didn’t know that? At any rate, your rant about the article being “absolute garbage and BS” isn’t merely a questionable opinion, it’s factually incorrect.

As they say: You’re entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts!

Susan K
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Susan K

If only you knew more about what you are attempting to discuss.

“Oakland AC Transit Fuel Cell Electric Bus #7 has exceeded federal targets – achieving 25,000+ hours of operation” You can find this on the AC Transit.org site. That article you posted is by Zach who owns Tesla stock (per his bio on CleanTechnica) and really doesn’t know a thing about fuel cells.

Gasbag
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Gasbag

It also mentions 7 was transplanted and overhauled but notice you’re talking about a single bus. Pretending that is representative is as silly as pretending that the one which lasted under 500 hours is representative of the whole. Why don’t you post the Average and the target? Because it clearly shows that FCs come up short again. Please don’t pretend this is not so.

You shouldn’t hide or deny the truth. If you read enough of the older NREL reports you’ll also see that they are improving and in time will have something which will meet customer requirements. Then we can talk about financial viability.

Gasbag
Guest
Gasbag

So your prior link had a goal of a total of 40,000 LDVs and 10,000 commercial FC vehicles by 2025. How does that equal 1/3 or 2/3 ?

Susan K
Guest
Susan K

Listen to a FC insider who goes to China all the time and is working to expand his business to meet the demand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPEbWRc9V3M

Gasbag
Guest
Gasbag

Sorry but you’ve lost credibility. Answer my question first.

SJC
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SJC

200 mile range would be thousands of pound of batteries, fuel cells and tanks weight much less for the same range.

przemo_li
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przemo_li

Fuel cell system, electric motors, battery to assure constant and instantaneous power supply, all the piping, and pumping equipment.

You skipped a little… Want to make your case look good?

On top of that BEV only allows for skateboard design and thus extra stability to bus design.

SJC
Guest
SJC

The point is the weight the bus carries to get 200 mile range with batteries only. This would be about 5000 pounds, a fuel cell is less than 1/4 that.

AnonyMouse
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AnonyMouse

Ad van der Meer said:
“Hydrogen busses in significant numbers are yet to be planned/produced.”

You are misinformed.

China is making a push to put hydrogen fuel cell vehicles on the road as a way of achieving their NEV goals.

“Shanghai is planning to build anywhere between 5-10 hydrogen stations and plans to launch at least 3,000 fuel cell buses and vehicles by 2020. It also plans to raise the number of hydrogen stations to 50 in five years once the target of 20,000 fuel cell cars are in service.”

“In a press release yesterday the Shanghai Science and Technology Commission said yesterday that it was planning to boost development of fuel cell cars in the coming years.”

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/shanghai-releases-its-development-plan-for-fuel-cell-vehicles

Likewise, South Korea is replacing its entire fleet of CNG buses with hydrogen fuel cell buses.

“South Korea’s Finance Minister Yoo Il-ho has announced plans to deploy thousands of hydrogen fuel cell buses in a partnership with Hyundai, reports the Chosun Ilbo. The hydrogen fuel cell buses will replace about 26,000 compressed natural gas (CNG) buses that Korea currently uses.”

“Approximately 200 hydrogen filling stations will be deployed nationwide, and the hydrogen fuel cell buses with replace the CNG buses at a rate of about 2,000 vehicles per year.”

https://ngtnews.com/south-korea-to-replace-cng-buses-with-hydrogen-fuel-cells

Jason
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Jason
This is amazing. 50 hydrogen stations for 20,000 vehicles. That works out to 57 vehicles charged per station, per day on a 7 day basis (assuming each vehicle fills up once per week). I’ve read it takes about 40kWh to produce 1kg of hydrogen, the Mirai uses 5kg to go 300mi, the 40kWh Leaf goes about 150mi, so the energy to produce 2kg of hydrogen has now taken you the same distance as 5kg of hydrogen, or 2.5x worse efficiency. I’ve also read that it costs about $1mil+ to build a hydrogen station. So that could be $50mil for these 20,000 vehicles ($2,500 per vehicle). At $100,000 per DCFC station, that would be 500 DCFC stations. That is only 6 vehicles per station based on recharging once every 7 days. Even if you have to charge twice as often that is still only 12 vehicles per station. Consider this: you charge your car at home, so barely need the DCFC. Or you charge once per week at the DCFC, but given there is enough for 12 vehicles per day, then they will mostly be free of congestion anyway. With hydrogen you ALWAYS refill at that station, there are 56 other… Read more »
Susan K
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Susan K

If it was only about efficiency everyone would buy the car that gets the most mileage. But people trade efficiency for convenience every day.

And what happens to the batteries when they die, which will happen to every single battery made today. Hydrogen = less battery waste but still green. According to experts, it is not cost effective to recycle lithium batteries in 2018. You really need an answer to this and fast- because it is a very important issue, especially when the EV argument is supposed to be about “Green”.

Gasbag
Guest
Gasbag

“And what happens to the batteries when they die, which will happen to every single battery made today. “

Well in general EV batteries don’t actual die. They are re-deployed in non-mobile applications or recycled. They are too valuable to to to trash.

And what about those CF tanks? CF is not recyclable and they have expiration dates. You really need to answer this but the good news is you have quite a few years before they are produced in significant quantities.

Mikael
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Mikael

*lol*… BYD and China are of course not going hydrogen. There might be some niche markets left for it but on the grand scale it’s nothing but a joke.

Susan K
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Susan K

Joke’s on you. Read this before you embarrass yourself further.

http://www.ihfca.org.cn/file/FCV%20Tech%20Roadmap.pdf

First will come denial, then anger and finally, acceptance. The anti FC brigade has lost. Get over it. Fuel Cells AND batteries are the future. No amount of tantrums will change this fact.

Gasbag
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Gasbag

I read that the first time you posted it and it doesm’t Really corroborate your narrative. If you actually read it you may realize it is essentially saying that China doesn’t think FCs have much chance of being viable until 2025 and that is realistic. I’m not anti FC but they have multiple challenges with no clear answers.

Pushmi-Pullyu
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Pushmi-Pullyu

“You’ll be pleased to hear that BYD is going Hydrogen”

No sensible person would be pleased to see more time, resources, and money thrown away supporting the “hydrogen economy” hoax.

Physics and the Laws of Thermodynamics don’t work differently in Japan or in China just because they’re more desperate there for alternatives to battery-electric vehicles.

Gasbag
Guest
Gasbag

“You’ll be pleased to hear that BYD is going Hydrogen, along with all of China! ”

Hate to disappoint you but China has added over 300,000 BEBs in the past three years. They have in essence completed their conversion to BEBs and are now focusing on converting their trucking industry to Batteries. China did purchase a bit over 300 FCs from Ballard as range extenders.

Susan K
Guest
Susan K
Gasbag
Guest
Gasbag
“You’ll be pleased to hear that BYD is going Hydrogen, along with all of China! Search “Made In China 2025 fuel cell” (PS: Toyota doesn’t care what you think) https://chargedevs.com/newswire/byd-and-us-hybrid-to-develop-hydrogen-electric-bus-for-honolulu-airport/” Obviously you did not read the report and/or lack the background knowledge to read it critically. The doc is from 2015 and claims there are over 80 US hydrogen fueling stations. Apparently they were counting Ca stations which have been decommissioned since Three years later We still don’t have 80 H fueling stations despite adding more than a dozen. The paper acknowledges that FCs have not yet reached customer acceptance criteria which is consistent with NREL’s position three years later. This even though they are supposed to be into their commercialization phase. The biggest contradiction between you and the doc you linked to are the projections. Although these may be the most realistic projections I’ve seen on FCs (simply because they are the lowest) they fall grossly short of indicating a major commitment to hydrogen. Their projection is to have 5,000 FCVs by 2020 and 50,000 by 2025 so five years after their report their hope was to be averaging 9,000 FCVs per year. Consider that they install more battery… Read more »
zzzzzzzzzz
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zzzzzzzzzz
“BYD has electric busses that have a range of 300 km’s.” Average in good conditions, but average is not what you care about here. Rechargeable battery bus needs to stop after range limit is reached and go out of service for hours or until next day while charging on cheaper off-peak electricity. So you need to be 99.9% sure you will have enough juice for 2 shift operation 15-20 hours daily. Hills, winter temperature dropping to -30 C in the morning, heaters on, or +40 C with A/C always at full power, no matter what. It works in come cities and moderate climates but other cities tried it and it didn’t work out that well. Some buses with expensive Lithium–titanate batteries use expensive on-route charging, it is another option with its own advantages and disadvantages. FC bus can recharge in minutes between shifts if needed and go on. Or add more tanks, tanks are 10+ times cheaper than Li Ion batteries and usually there is enough space in a bus for extra tanks, especially when Sora uses more dense tanks than older FC buses. Tank size is not the limit and it simply doesn’t matter for city bus that goes… Read more »
Pushmi-Pullyu
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Pushmi-Pullyu

There is no way that using electricity to generate, compress, store, move, re-compress, and dispense hydrogen into fool cell cars or buses is “much cheaper” or less costly in terms of energy than using fully electric cars and buses.

The energy required for a fool cell car or bus is about 3.5x as much as for a comparable BEV going the same distance. Where is all that extra energy needed to supply the hydrogen supply chain going to come from? How much more pollution and CO2 will be generated by using a fool cell car or bus, rather than a much more energy-efficient and much less polluting BEV?

Believing that somehow vehicles powered by renewable hydrogen are “less polluting” than battery-electric vehicles, requires one to deny the reality of both science and economics.

Jason
Guest
Jason

Not to mention most hydrogen is coming from natural gas or other fossil fuels, so where is that Utopia of electrolysis from water?

Gasbag
Guest
Gasbag

@zzzzzzzzz

in the U.S., the Chicago Transit Authority. The CTA operates 1,781 buses (2011 statistics) and buses travel 145,832 miles in a day. Assuming all the buses are used, each bus travels roughly 81 miles in one day. Even if only half of the buses are in use each day, one bus averages just about 160 miles in a day.

300 km isn’t even child’s play. Multiple BEBs have exceeded what your average Greyhound bus does.

You FC fanboys are delusional when it comes to the bus market. The largest long range carrier in the US by far is Greyhound and their fleet is smaller then Chicago’s.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/03/29/future-travel-california-made-bus-travels-1000-miles-on-single-charge.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2017/09/19/electric-bus-travels-record-1101-miles-on-one-charge/

przemo_li
Guest
przemo_li

“Expensive” on road charging?
Wait till you get “inexpensive” bill for single hydrogen station.

zzzzzzzzzz
Guest
zzzzzzzzzz

The bills are calculated and well known in advance. Something like 4-5 euros/kg at large scale using today’s technology, including CapEx and OpEx. Page 74:
https://www.fuelcellbuses.eu/sites/default/files/documents/NewBusFuel_D4.3_Guidance-document-for-large-scale-hydrogen-refuelling_final.pdf

It is close to being cost competitive with diesel, when you account for diesel fuel usage at typical 10 km/h transit bus speed in big city. Plus benefit of zero tailpipe emissions, no visual pollution from overhead trolleybus lines (although trolleybuses are slowly dying anyway), and 2-shift operation in any weather conditions, not just in “average” case.

What was show stopper so far is too high FC system cost at very low scale production. As Toyota was able to leverage car FC stack production by using 2 Mirai stacks, it is no longer an issue. Mirai FC system is around $233/kW net at 1000/year. At 10,000/year production it becomes around $100/kW, or under $20,000 for 2 Mirai stacks plus balance.
https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/17007_fuel_cell_system_cost_2017.pdf

ffbj
Guest
ffbj

A White Elephant.

Susan K
Guest
Susan K

says a guy on the internet.

Here’s someone who actually works in the industry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPEbWRc9V3M

The China FC shock is about to reverberate around the world

Bill Howland
Guest
Bill Howland
I’ll say this – If Hydrogen vehicles are viable anywhere, it is probably Hawaii seeing as the cost of fuel for EV’s is more than gasoline there. There certainly is MONUMENTAL effort to make H2 SEEM mainstream. If they continue subsidizing H2 infrastructure to the extent they seem to want, then universal H2 will be made a reality, at least in Hawaii and California. Seems like the hard way to do things to me, but that never stopped any government policy before. Pushy’s uneducated drivel about H2 vehicles being in violation of physical principles is a SILLY STATEMENT, – even for him!!!! The head of CARB apparently uses this MIRAI, which supposedly violates physical principles every day as her daily driver. That is why Pushy is the Comic Relief here. Meanwhile, even though Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) has been proven viable in several countries, there has been less than zero interest in passenger cars lately. Even Honda basically gave up – not approving the CIVIC CNG for home refueling any longer. And none of the ‘perfected’ low-cost home refuelers have come to pass. Even though the efficiency of the car (well to wheels) is good, and it is fairly clean.
Gasbag
Guest
Gasbag

“If Hydrogen vehicles are viable anywhere, it is probably Hawaii seeing as the cost of fuel for EV’s is more than gasoline there. ”

If. You have solar panels then it is cheaper to drive a plug-in. That is probably why HI is second only to CA in the percentage of plug-ins purchased.
You don’t need much range on the HI islands and a used EVs can be had without much effort. You can’t get an FC everywhere in CA and where you can you’re looking at a lease not a purchase.

Bill Howland
Guest
Bill Howland

Yes, electrics work for me (Only type of car I have driven for the past 7 years) – currently I have a PHEV (mainly for long vacations) and a BEV (for those under 350-mile round trips). And the solar panels make them somewhat more economical to drive. I’m just trying to give Susan the benefit of the doubt. If H2 works in China, more power to her. But, Fuel Cell fans have been way overly optimistic in the past. I suspect they will also have more than a few future disappointments even if they are ultimately correct in what they say.

Bill Howland
Guest
Bill Howland

The link you provided was ‘honest’ in that it said that the Fuel Cell industry to date has not grown any where near as fast as was initially expected in the States, but yet may actually flower quite nicely in China due to their huge developing Methanol Infrastructure. Its not a big deal to get H2 from that point – so – I myself might have to reconsider some of my former objection to H2 – for certain places it may make sense. If it gets to be a ‘Big Deal’ in China, then American manufacturers will certainly manufacture them here also for fear of being left out in the cold.

John Doe
Guest
John Doe

I think hydrogen is one of the solutions for future transportation – especially buses, trucks and some machines.
Larger vehicle to cover the cost, and quick refueling. Hydrogen can be made with clean energy.

We need more development in fuel cells. Toyota and Hyundai have reduced the costs a lot from the previous to this generation. If they make the same leap to the next generation, we’re starting to talk about agressive prices.

We’re heading in a direction where there will be surplus energy many places. Batteries, hydrogen convertion and storage can be a solution. Energy independence, more people go off grid and so on.

I hope Toyota sell enough buses, for them to invest in more technology. These large companies have enough funds to research new core technology, new solutions and improve current technology.

sveno
Guest
sveno

The only downside is that it makes neither financial nor ecological sense

Bill Howland
Guest
Bill Howland
“Surplus energy in many places”. Sure, that seems like it is more than conceivable, seeing the impetus given to wind and solar energy lately. To prevent the requirements of excessive infrastructure to remotely absorb the excess energy – I’d think co-located battery packs, and/or flywheel storage systems would tend to greatly SMOOTH the output of the somewhat variable Wind Plant Arrays. The advantage of these systems of course, is that they remain at quite high efficiency, whether supplying the ‘grid’ directly, or while charging or discharging the storage systems. I’m somewhat less enthused about using the excess to manufacture Hydrogen since that seems to me to be an incredibly high investment for something that only uses up excessive juice, and is also NOT used for times when there is a LACK of wind power, so that the connecting infrastructure has to be bigger than it otherwise would be (e.g. – larger facilities, and in extreme cases stand by gas generators to make up the shortfall). A much, much cheaper way to handle the ‘problem’ with PV arrays is to simply use somewhat smaller inverters (and thereby running much more of the time at a constant ‘high’ output) , and for… Read more »
Bunny
Guest
Bunny

Hydrogen is getting more popular in forklift applications also

Both Amazon and Walmart use hydrogen fuel cell forklifts

SJC
Guest
SJC

One of the fuel cell makers in the U.S. is now owned by a fork lift company.
Nuvera was bought by Hyster because of their technology.

Ambulator
Guest
Ambulator

Hydrogen buses for the Olympics? Where have I heard this before? Oh, yeah, in Canada.

They ended up getting rid of them.

SJC
Guest
SJC

Oakland and Palm Springs have been running fuel cell buses for more than a decade.

Gasbag
Guest
Gasbag

…..more than a decade and according to the NREL report they still come up short on virtually every category measured. They aren’t even close to broaching the subject of financial viability.

In contrast NREL reports BEBs as being 4 times as efficient as CNG. Reliability? Here is what NREL had to say;

The BEBs achieved a MBRC of 133,000, which the NREL researchers said was “exceptional for an advanced technology bus in the early stage of commercialization.”

In contrast after a decade FCs MBRC ranged from 1,100 to under 25,000.

Pushmi-Pullyu
Guest
Pushmi-Pullyu

Is this the last gasp from those companies still promoting the “hydrogen economy” hoax? Well, I hope so!

Obviously these buses will only be usable in the very limited area where there are high-capacity hydrogen fueling stations specifically built to support their use. Presumably that’s only in the metro area of Tokyo.

Fancy a Bev Mate?
Guest
Fancy a Bev Mate?

Four parts energy to get One part hydrogen? Why over complicate things Toyota when a BEV does the job directly from the source be it hydro electric, wind or solar? FC are pointless imo.

zzzzzzzzzz
Guest
zzzzzzzzzz

We would be all shipping goods on sailboats if it would be so easy to use wind or solar on the spot. Somehow everybody “complicated things” with engines and fuel tanks.

It is strange that people want to rely on buses to get to work when wind isn’t blowing and solar PVs are under snow & ice, isn’t it?

Prsnep
Guest
Prsnep

“Will this type of bus be a viable solution for mass transport? We doubt it.”

Very insight. Much thought.

Dan
Guest
Dan

Blah,blah,blah! Where’s the hydrogen coming from?

Mikael
Guest
Mikael

I could not imagine that there were so many clueless people in here. Either clueless or trolling. Why would anyone want to pay 3-5 times as much as with BEVs and have 3-5 times as much pollution while grasping for 3.5 times as much energy?

Companies? Hell no, cost is everything.
Private citizens? Seriously?

For which vehicles? Cars, no chance. Buses? They are already beaten. Trucks? Absolutely not, it’s one of the most cost aware and cost sensitive businesses of them all. Ships? Possible Airplanes? The jury is still out….

Until someone somehow can get the cost and total use of energy down to similar levels of electricity including making the hydrogen, compressing it, storing it and distributing it it is a non-starter as anything but niche uses.
Get the solution to that first…

It’s borderline ridiculous that some people find this a potential game changer like BEVs.

Get Real
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Get Real
Well because of the immutable laws of physics, they cannot EVER get the costs of H2 down to the price of electricity because of the very poor inefficiencies that even in the best case scenario production of H2 with RE takes 3-4 times as much electricity per mile driven compared to putting that electricity straight into a battery. What is more likely is that they plan on using mainly H2 derived from NATGAS which is one reason why Big Oil companies back H2 but their main reason is to try and slow the growth of plug ins. What we have here in these H2 threads are a number of shills for the hydrogen hoax companies like Nikola Corp or First Element or some Russian trolls like zzzzz and his little mouse who are fond of claiming that somewhere China has a future Five Year Plan to use some H2. And in other news, every one of these H2 shills are also rabid Serial anti-Tesla Trolls for some reason? Meanwhile, China is building Battery Electric Busses by the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS and battery plug in vehicles by the millions..! So without MASSIVE subsidies for both the vehicles, H2, AND THE ASTRONOMICALLY… Read more »
Bunny
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Bunny

OCTA is having a new hydrogen station installed for fuel for their bus fleet

Gasbag
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Gasbag

Why not when someone else is footing the 4.7 million for the station and 12 mill for the buses? Hopefully for them the price of H will drop so they can afford to keep operating them. After the 2008 olympics in China and the 2010 in Canada both gave up on their fleets of H buses based on the on going costs.