Tesla Model 3 Hater Asks, Can Tesla Convert The Hardcore Gas Crowd?


This Forbes’ automotive journalist admits in the title that he hates the Tesla Model 3. Why then is he asking if Tesla can convert the gas crowd?

It’s pretty clear why this Forbes article headline is written as such. We have all learned that talking about Tesla means lots of views. Whether or not the message is good or bad — or the message is even really about Tesla — the automaker is hugely popular and its CEO Elon Musk has a massive Twitter following. In addition, it almost seems as if Tesla — a company that doesn’t advertise in the traditional sense — could almost care less if the news is positive or negative. Any Tesla attention draws people in, and that’s the truth. Anyhow, this gearhead asks and answers the above question, so let’s take a peek.

Forbes contributor Brooke Crothers begins:

Tesla may never win over the hardcore gas guys.

The you’ll-never-pry-my-6.2-liter-V8-from-my-cold-dead-hands crowd sees Tesla as a wannabe carmaker. Not the real deal.

I’m going to address a subset of Tesla haters. The ones who have tried the Model 3 and rejected it.

Interestingly, we haven’t heard from a ton of people or read a plethora of reviews from people who have hated the Tesla Model 3. In fact, this is true about all Tesla vehicles. Don’t get me wrong here. The company has endured a slew of issues as it’s moving forward, and its cars have been far from perfect, especially initially. But, the consensus as of late has been that Tesla is making incredible progress and the Tesla Model 3 is a force to be reckoned with.

Crothers speaks about one of his friends who’s an ICE diehard. He admits that he’s somewhat impressed by the Tesla Model S, but not a fan of the Model 3 or Model X. Yes, there are still some people out there who have finally realized that the Model S is worthy in many ways, but haven’t been sold on the Model X, and are still not sure the Model 3 can pull off the status of its older sibling. Sadly, even though Crothers says he’ll consult his “friends” to answer this questions, he only consults “Bob.” We have been called out for research that only banks on 100s or 1,000s of opinions. But, um …. this one talks about friends as plural but simply consults one ICE-loving dude? We honestly don’t even know how Forbes allowed this to be a featured article … oh wait … yes we do.

At any rate, Crothers paraphrased well-informed and all-knowing, undisclosed car master Bob’s takeaways as follows (is this coming from Bob Lutz? Since there’s no indication of who Bob is?):

  • I’m a traditionalist who looks at the Model 3 and says it’s not well made, so why is it so expensive?
  • It’s a big purchase for someone who is just a working stiff. If it were well-made, tested, and had some legacy behind it and made by a company that will be around in ten years, that would be one thing. But it’s none of the above.
  • All those people who trade up from the Accord or Prius are, of course, going to think the Model 3 is decent. The Prius is a low water mark. I mean, if you trade up from the Prius to any decent ICE car, you’d think it’s the best car in the world (compared to the Prius).
  • The Model X is way overweight. How anyone can call themselves “green” while driving a nearly 6,000-pound car is beyond me.
  • The X is really a $45,000 car that is priced at $100,000. I expect Mercedes S class not C class quality — which is what you get.
  • I’m sure many readers believe that they could take apart his argument (as I try to do whenever we get into it) — but that’s not the point. The point being that there are people who are smart about cars and understand Tesla but will never convert.

What do you think about this “Bob’s” analysis? Some good points? Some craziness? Please inform us in the comments section below.

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107 Comments on "Tesla Model 3 Hater Asks, Can Tesla Convert The Hardcore Gas Crowd?"

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Sure, they’ll eventually convert. Tesla, however, is not the car company to do it. Tesla is a luxury brand. When you can go to a Ford/VW/Chevy/etc dealer, drive a 300 mile range car off the lot for under $30k without tax incentives, and have a fast charging network equivalent to Tesla’s… they will be converted. I’m an EV fan and that’s what it will take for me to convert. If you want to really convert the US market, then Ford should release a 300 mile range electric F-150 and Mustang. What the Tesla fan boys around here need to understand is that the average person won’t buy an EV just because it’s electric. ICE vs electric motor doesn’t matter to them. and I agree with his points about Tesla. The Model X is a $50k SUV with a $100k price tag and impractical rear doors that will break. The Model S is way too big and heavy; it’s not fun at all to drive unless you’re only going in a straight line and it’s a pain in the ass to park. The Model 3 is the first Tesla that’s actually a good car but still too expensive. Sorry, if I… Read more »

From your post above one wonders if you’ve ever sat in or driven any of the Teslas.

That’s part of the problem. Almost impossible to get a test drive in a Tesla outside of CA.

I’ve been signed up for almost a year waiting for the local Tesla store to call me for when I can test drive a Model 3.

There was no list to sign up for a test drive of a Model 3 1 year ago. If you signed up for a test drive on their website 1 year ago, they would have quickly gotten you in to test drive a Model S.

Cypress. Wonder why, might be the restrictive-protective legislation (sponsored by franchise dealership associations) to forbid Tesla from selling or servicing their cars directly.

My neighbor let me drive his.

Exactly. Those who will “you’ll-never-pry-my-6.2-liter-V8-from-my-cold-dead-hands” have never driven a Tesla, or any electric. The Vast Superiority of an Electric terrifies them. But, once driven always a fan.

Anyone who drives a Tesla and still “prefers” an V8 is simply not telling the truth and has another agenda.

I think it’s everyone but EV fans who don’t realize that people don’t buy Teslas just because they are electric. People buy them because they are better than other cars in the same price range. Reviewers compare them to other cars in the same price range, not to other EVs, and Tesla’s cars get great reviews and the highest customer satisfaction rating of any car. So it’s not just the opinion of Tesla’s buyers.

Exactly. Having owned by model 3 for 7 weeks now what fascinates me is how diverse Tesla’s customer base is and the level of interest in the brand. When I picked my model 3 up my fellow customers ranged from late 20s to 70s. People in that age range in my neighborhood owning everything from Harleys to F150s to BMWs to Suburus ask me about my model 3 all the time. So, whether the haters admit it or not Tesla’s brand is incredibly valuable right now with a huge range of potential customers. Assuming Tesla makes the model Y relatively practical and comparably priced to the model 3 that vehicle will grab a huge slice of the white hot CUV market. Then Tesla can expand into the more mainstream priced market either with a lower priced offering or certified preowned model 3/Y. I think only the consumer pickup truck market will be really difficult to crack.

ALL F 150s and RAM 1500 and GMCs and Chevy pickups are as big or BIGGER& LONGER than any Tesla right now , ihave driven ALL THOSE VEHICLES ,if you can’t park those trucks and a Tesla S/X you have no business driving,I also have a GAS PIG OF A SUBARU ONE THAT GETS 19 mpg on a good day

Most gas vehicles driven in cities and suburbs get CITY gas mileage. The EPA should DROP the highway mileage as it’s a joke.

“The Model S is way too big and heavy; it’s not fun at all to drive unless you’re only going in a straight line…”

And you claim to be “an EV fan”?!?! With “fans” like this, the EV revolution doesn’t need bashers!

The Tesla Model S doesn’t earn its #1 spot in customer satisfaction every year on Consumer Reports‘ poll of car owners by being “not fun at all to drive”. Everyone is entitled to his opinion, but I think it’s safe to say yours is an outlier opinion.

Here’s a rather different opinion:


You don’t need to apologize for posting an alternative opinion, but you should for posting patently wrong information. The Model X outperforms other high end SUVs that match its price. And your doors comment is just a made up “fact” that you pulled out of your ass. There’s no data suggesting falcon wing doors break. Mine sure haven’t.

You’ll convert when you’re paying $6 per gallon for your F150.

“The Model S …. and it’s a pain in the ass to park.”

You realize it will park itself, right?

vzcxvzxczxvcx. It seems you enjoy comparing Apples to Oranges. A Tesla does compare nicely price wise to a similarly equipped model by BMW, MB, Audi, Porsche, Jaguar, Maserati, Lexus. You say a Tesla Model X is overpriced, compared to a similar Cayenne, Audi Q7, G Wagon?

Yes the Model S is quite big and heavy and so are MB S Class and BMW 5 Series. The Tesla S is a dream to park, just press the autopark feature. Try comparing a BMW 3 Series or Audi A4 with AWD to the Tesla and not Subaru Impreza.

There is nothing wrong with seeking value in well engineered cars by Ford, Subaru, and others that have lower MSRPs but premium brands are priced more expensive and appeal to a different buyer. Happy trails.

If gas becomes $4-5 per gallon, then gas vs. electric will become very relevant to the average American.

Ignoring things like ecology and economy, people might not care whether it’s ICE or electric… If these were equivalent. But everyone who tried a decent EV knows they are *not* equivalent — EVs a way superior in almost every regard.

“Bob” in the article sure sounds like ‘Boob Putz’.

The Bell curve never fails. There will always be people at the tail end.

— A in Statistics.
Yes, there will always the the statistical outlier, and that’s what’s on the “news”.

I “won over” a gas guy yesterday! Nissan 300Z, tailgating me on a winding rural highway.

As the passing lane appeared on an hairpin turn, I moved over to let him pass. We navigated it at 62 MPH, the Model 3 not even stressing the curve. For some reason, the 300 paced right next to us, unable to get past us. As the curve straightened out, and heading up a hill, I got fed up with him hanging on my bumper like that. So I punched it. When the next curve came up 100 yards away, he was WAY behind us.

Even as I slowed back down to 65, the 300 backed off about 500 yards and never even tried to pass again…. I suspect he became and EV believer ! LOL.

I hate people like that. They tailgate you on the way down because they want to speed, pass you when they finally get the opportunity, and then block you when the road has an uphill stretch because their car cannot handle it. All I want to do is drive at a consistent speed.

I can handle a 6% grade without downshifting on the way up or on the way down, have plenty of excess power on the way up, and plenty of precise control on the way down without touching the brakes, and I end up with more energy at the bottom of the hill than what I started with.

F**k those American units..

How long is one yard? Let me guess…0.0126879 mile-inches?

Do Not Read Between The Lines

Close enough to a metre for imprecise distances that it doesn’t matter.
Road construction signs in the UK went from 100s of yards to 100s of metres and nobody batted an eyelid.

You mean the British Imperial units?

Now, I agree that it’s both foolish and counter-productive for the U.S. to cling to an inefficient measurement standard that very nearly every other country in the world has abandoned, but it’s not an “American” standard.

Our country is full of people with limited numeracy. Imperial is for the math impaired as its easy to half or third. But divide / multiply by tens, well out comes the feared point whatever.

Ironically, I actually think in metric when I’m in the woodshop after I switched over to those fancy German Festools. It makes the math easier too… 😉

First we will have to define the hardcore gas crowd.

aka the terminal flatulence crowd.

Bob, the builder?

These are the guys that went to shop class while many of us were in Physics. If you understand work and how to make it efficient you can come to no other conclusion aside from the one that sees EVS proliferating regardless of incorrect opinions that ICE are preferable. They aren’t and they will be tossed on the trash heap of history along with other wasteful, highly polluting, technologies that were eventually superseded by superior ones. I have a coal chute in my house for instance, but it hasn’t been used in 75 years. Part of the question of how good something is, is how long it will last, and how long will it continue to perform its functions well even after many years. ICE just can’t compete in this arena, with a well made EV. This is where the money is going. You are getting a vehicle that will last longer, drive better, and do less harm to the environment, and cost less to run, a lot less, and less to maintain. I’m not surprised that many things about EVS are beyond comprehension of the author, a thoughtful, thorough, dispassionate, analysis of a question does not seem to be… Read more »
What would solve it all really fast is if as a society we decided that all energy needed to run our society should be conserved and used as efficiently as possible and we could magically pass a law that pegged fuel/energy prices with a fixed cost per megajoule. Then one kWh is 3.6 MJ while one gallon of gasoline has 120 MJ. It doesn’t matter how much 1 MJ would cost but what would matter would be the consumer when choosing their vehicle would look at similar vehicles, one an EV and the other and ICE, and see that to travel roundtrip 50 miles to and from work every day they would need to pay for 240 MJ in an ICE and only 45 MJ in an EV. But just for fun let’s say one MJ costs $0.05 no matter what fuel or source or energy you choose. And let’s ignore well-to-wheel efficiency for simplicity. Then the consumer would calculate that a Tesla Model 3 would cost $2.25 to drive to work and back every day while their BMW 330i would cost $12 a day to commute. Then they would calculate that just commuting to work in an ICE would… Read more »

Definitely. I just sold my E63 AMG (6.2l 525bhp V8) after 7 years of AMG ownership for a Model S 100D. So it’s definitely possible.

I’ll give you one more opinion for N=2. I daily a BEV in LA, mainly for value and HOV access. But I still love powerful ICE cars. Tesla’s cars are impressive on many fronts, but I won’t buy one, yet. I was ready to open my wallet on the night when the Model 3 was presented, but I didn’t care for the exterior or interior styling. That’s subjective, but performance isn’t quite there either. Yes, it’s fast in a straight line, and with some tweaks it’s even fast on a track for a couple laps as Motortrend demonstrated, but BEVs aren’t there yet in terms of sustained performance. Weight and overheating are real limitations, and they won’t be solved anytime soon, requiring a breakthrough in battery tech. It may happen, and I’m convinced ICE is finished for mainstream use, but for performance applications, it’s going to take some time before the ‘hardcore’ give it up. The definition of ‘hardcore’ is, of course, open to interpretation.

The Performance Model 3 doesn’t overheat and isn’t heavy. Is that all?

Cost of FOSSIL FUELS vs electricity are limitations for ICE if you ask me.(it cost $15 or less to “fillup any Tesla)

Seriously, what’s with the recurring patently false info in this article? Every time I watch a video of an ICE getting smoked on the track by a Tesla, the part I enjoy most is the dejected look of the losing ICE driver afterwards.

“…the Model 3… it’s fast in a straight line, and with some tweaks it’s even fast on a track for a couple laps as Motortrend demonstrated, but BEVs aren’t there yet in terms of sustained performance.”

A track test of the Model 3 showed that in a continued run, the TM3 was able to sustain a run after heating up with a reduction of only 2-3 seconds per lap.

Looks to me like that one BEV is “there” in terms of sustained performance. Of course, that’s only the highest trim level of the most advanced BEV in production; it will be some time before we see that level of track performance in production sports car EVs from other auto makers.

“A track test of the Model 3 showed that in a continued run, the TM3 was able to sustain a run after heating up with a reduction of only 2-3 seconds per lap.”

2-3 seconds per lap is an eternity on a race track in terms of competitiveness…

Only if you’re competing with other cars of almost identical performance capability. We’re not talking about purpose-built race cars, but sports cars, which are most definitely not all built to conform to a rigidly defined set of performance standards.

Push a gasmobile racer too hard, redline it too much, and you’ll blow the engine. A smart driver will reduce acceleration a bit after redlining the car. How is that any different from the Model 3 reducing its acceleration a bit after overheating? Well, there is one difference: The Model 3 is engineered to not let the driver destroy the powertrain!

ICE cars have fuel limiter to cut fuel near the red line to protect the engines too.

Sure, and go to the track every day for a few laps. Not! Racing cars are speciality build/upgraded, not representative of daily drivers at all. Take your $15k buzz box to the track and see how well it works out.
Now at the practical level, daily driver and trip a couple times per year, tell me one thing about any EV, except recharge time, that is a problem compared to ICE?
They have generally better off the line acceleration.
They are smooth and quiet (whoops, that’s a fall when your objective is to make a much noise to be noticed).
They cost less to operate.
Prices are coming down every year, and many countries/states have incentives.
Generally they are less prone to failure.
So, nothing to really like about EV’s, is there?

Yeah, Model 3 isn’t there in sustained performance… After a couple of full-speed laps beating pretty much any combustion car, you have to do one cool-down lap, before you can do another bunch of combustion car beating full-speed laps… Unacceptable.

According to the inside ev article on TFL car, their course shows that Kia Stinger GT AWD is faster than a Model 3 and cost only $45K.

Well then, why isn’t everybody buying that car?

Not to say that track performance is completely unimportant for a mass produced sedan, but I think most 4-door sedan buyers put a lot more value in other characteristics.

Sure, that isn’t the point of argument. It is the tireless of argument that Model 3 is superior on the track too that is tiring. It isn’t. certainly not against some of the lower priced competitors…

Well, https://insideevs.com/model-3-track-mode-passes-ferrari-record/ certainly does make Model 3 looks superior on the track, even to equally and higher priced competitors.

You are hopelessly mis-informed and and or are spreading FUD for some ulterior motive. – You would have a better time on another discussion page spreading lies. We know too much about EVs here to buy your line of misinformation.

Maybe the hardcore climate deniers in the US won’t get converted, but when gas prices spike and gas stations start closing and EVs become widely available at close to ICE prices, and emissions regulations kick in (yes, it will take a while in the US, but it will happen), they will just get bypassed. Yes, they’ll still be around, like the idiots who fought against mandatory seatbelts, but it’ll be obvious that they’re idiots wasting their money on insecurity compensating vehicles.

Who said gas prices will spike? When demand goes down, prices go down too.

Leave it an F150 guy to fundamentally misunderstand economics.

Saudi Arabia just announced they were cutting production…..

Exxon has cut it’s CAPEX spending.

It didn’t work that way during the transition from whale oil to kerosene, and for the same reasons — fluctuations in prices and therefore in demand, plus and new sources of oil exploited — we are almost certainly going to see wild swings in prices for petroleum as the easy to exploit sources are exhausted, and over the long term, demand declines.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Part of the conversion from Peaker Plants to Solar & Battery and Wind & Battery is that for the utility these are flat, guaranteed prices, as long as 30 year contracts.

The oil market can’t guarantee 1 week pricing.

Heck yeah you can! It’s called hedging. Most companies do it for all commodities.

Unfortunately in markets that have been ‘captured’ prices go up to maintain profits. (E.g. Apple, cable companies and fossil fuel companies ) All have decreased market shares and are increasing prices to make up for lost profits. It only works so long before the market collapses completely, but it can last many years!

Other popular petrol head tropes:

-EVs have no soul since they don’t have the rumbling vibrations and sounds of a V8

-Batteries are bad for the environment.

– You could get electrocuted when it rains!

The premise of that article is bogus. Why does Tesla need to chase after that hardcore gas crowd?

They seem to be doing just fine creating a whole new generation of auto enthusiasts not tethered to ICE nostalgia.

The hardcore gas crowd will be dealt with by the simplest possible mechanism: Time. Some will see the wisdom of converting to an EV (eventually), and the rest will die off.

I know how cruel that sounds, but it’s true. Some intellectual revolutions, as a physicist (Planck?) once observed, happen one funeral at a time.

ICE guys are talking about better fart sound, like my fart sounds better than yours.
No fart is better of course.

Except when you silently let one go in a crowded elevator. 😉

“Never” is a strong term. Time is on our side. How many of these “hard core gas guys” will be around 30 years from now?

Didn’t the dinosaurs complain as they were being wiped out?
Nothing new here from Forbes, a publisher that is itself, way past its Sell-By date, if they are relying on fake news to save them from extinction.

Do Not Read Between The Lines

The problem with listening to auto journalists is that they serve a small and shrinking subset of the population.
Nobody needs the hardcore gas crowd to sell lots of electric cars.

You will never convert everyone from ICE to EV. You may make the ICE versions unavailable due to loss of scale at the hands of EVs, after which they may have no choice but to buy an EV, but that would not qualify as a convert.
I have a neighbour that has 4 BMWs. Two 3-Series sedans, one 3-Series wagon and a Z4. They all have manual transmissions. I had a brief discussion about the Model 3 with them and they had zero interest. Their answer: they like driving and no manual = not driving.

Right or wrong, no EV will ever “convert” them. Same might hold for people who like the sound of a performance engine.

True, but I don’t think he’s in the main stream.

Agreed. And I’m sure that a decade into the automotive age there were people who thought no horse = no worthwhile transportation. Those super hard core ICEheads don’t bother me. Once ICEVs stop disappearing from the market, as you suggest, let them complain. It will be music to my ears.

Your BMW 3-series sedan driving neighbor is screwed. Not even BMW is building manny-tranny 3’s for the US anymore:


The traditional problem with automatics was always that they were in the wrong gear when you wanted to be in a different gear, and were slow (or impossible) to get into the correct gear. Manual transmissions were the answer to that problem. But EV’s are always in the right gear. No shift lag, no gear hunting like traditional automatic transmissions.

People who think that they are “driving” when changing gears are pathetic and childish..

What’s with this comment using the word ‘pathetic’? I was a life-long ICE enthusiast willing to give up the subjective pleasures of certain ICE including shifting for the general excellence of my Model 3 AND for the environment. Driving a stick at high speeds requires quite a bit of skill and is a very satisfying challenge. Few people can do it. It’s a hobby. Unfortunately, it’s a hobby with a larger than necessary ecological footprint. No need to call anyone names. Not a way to win converts. BTW EVERY person i have allowed to drive the 3 is VERY impressed, regardless of ‘stick-orientation’.


OTOH, people DO change with the passage of time.
Both my wife and I had owned nothing but stickshift cars and viewed automatics with disdain.
Then along came longer stop’n’go commutes, wrist joint problems from all that shifting, and guess what, a no-manual-option Prius.
After that it was all down hill. Now a ’18 Leaf and a Model 3. Oh, the shame and the ignominy!

Do Not Read Between The Lines

The other aging converter is a left leg issue that makes clutch control a lot less fun.

This is kind of funny as I would consider myself a reasonably hardcore “car guy”. I’ve owned both American muscle – late model Trans Ams and GTOs – (still have my 67 Firebird project car), and German sports sedans (3 series, M3, M5, etc.). When we buy a car I’m almost always looking for the “high performance” version of that ride. I’ve also done a ton of hands-on work as a DIYer (everything from brake jobs to rebuilding engines, swapping transmissions, and even some paint and body work). Anyway, back in 2012 I was looking to move on from my then 8 year old M5 to something else. I wasn’t sure where to go next and ended up leasing a 2012 Chevy Volt. It just so happened that my roundtrip commute was exactly the battery range of the Volt so I envisioned saving money on gas and “something different”. The test drive was a combination of utterly normal, a revelation and a disappointment. It was “normal” in that it drove just like every other car – no “golf cart” effect. It was a revelation in that the single speed gearbox addressed every complaint I’ve ever had about automatic transmissions over… Read more »

Bob is a fool. Enough said. Oh wait Forbes is a joke. Now I am done.

Forbes Contributor section is a cesspool of stupidity.

Bob’s your Uncle,a Dinosaur.

“Not well made” can actually be a selling point for Tesla. I’ve been in a situation where someone asked me. I walked around my Model 3 until I found an imperfect door seam and a molding that was off by the thickness of a credit card. I walked around to the other side to point out a difference until he could see what I was talking about. After doing it again so he would know what I was talking about (in real life these are not things that people notice) he realized that if that’s the worst criticism that someone could come up with, there couldn’t be anything wrong with the car. Then I explained that if I complained to Tesla, they’d replace or adjust the molding and they’d even come to my house to do it. If I had to use calipers and go around the car measuring seams until I found the imperfect ones, I don’t know if I’d bother asking if it could be adjusted. Mine is VIN 5xx so I knew that there was a greater risk of problems, but after close to a year with nothing failing, I am not concerned. Newer vehicles don’t have… Read more »

It might be interesting to look at the history of steam-powered cars. No doubt a lot of steam car owners swore, back in the day, that they would never, ever switch from steam to gasoline powered cars. But I think it’s safe to say that a lot of them did, as gasmobiles improved in range, speed, and usefulness. It was hard to compete with the gasmobile after they started putting in electric starters!

Likewise, some and (almost certainly) eventually most of the current die-hard gear-heads are gonna change their tunes as BEVs continue to improve and become more convenient to use and less expensive to buy.

However, altho we can confidently predict that the ranks of the die-hard gearheads will dwindle over time, it may be decades before they entirely disappear. The Stanley Steamer ceased production in 1924, but its successor, the Doble Steam Car, was produced starting in 1924, in dwindling numbers until 1931.

More revelent to look at the history of automatic transmission adoption vs manuals. Still lots of people that are die-hards for manuals, even though they are getting more rare to find in new cars.

Do Not Read Between The Lines

The situation is worse for manual-loving hypermilers, the people who dream of stick-shift diesel wagons.
The whole industry has shifted away from them.

Actually, the history of fuel injection vs. carbs is probably a better analogy.

Fuel injectors were impossible to ignore for car makers, because carb technology simply couldn’t keep up with performance, fuel efficiency and emissions requirements. Fuel injectors were simply the superior technology, and now carbs are ancient history.

ICE motors simply can’t compete in the long term with electric drivetrains on delivering performance while meeting fuel efficiency and emissions targets. That is exactly what happened to carbs too.

“No doubt a lot of steam car owners swore, back in the day, that they would never, ever switch from steam to gasoline powered cars.”

You could replace steam with electric in that sentence.

The phrase is:
Couldn’t care less.
“could almost care less ” means that you do care.

The battle over the hearts of hardcore motorheads will end with a mixed bag. For some EV’s will win over, for others it will be just like the ICE car industry. Some BMW hardcore fanatics swear that the original 1980’s/90’s E30 M3 was the best handling M3, and that everything since then has just been been bloated generation after generation. There will still be motorheads that think whatever 1960’s Big 3 muscle car they idolize is the best car ever, even when there are modern Ford Focus and VW Golf’s that are faster.

The hardcore ICE motorhead folks will do what they want to do, and over time will antiquate themselves the way Hardcore Harley fans are aging out:


Meanwhile the world will move forward without them.

If I met this guy in person, I would say, no you will never convert. Forget it, you are a lost cause. There is no arguing with a hater.

I would also tell him, that in a few decades, you will be regarded like the hard-working Amish in Penn Dutch country, who still drive buggies from the 19th century. They look quaint and amusing. Decades from now, nobody will drive gas or diesel cars, except for car collectors and a handful of haters. When 99% of the public drives cheaper, clean EVs, Most people will laugh at the haters as quaint people still living in the dark, polluting 20th century. (BTW: I know from meeting a few Amish, that massive cheating goes on, Most Amish women use cellphones and I knew a carpenter who had a secret gas car, parked far away from neighbors. He used it to travel to jobs far away. So even gas car fanatics of the future, may secretly use EVs, because within 5 years they will cost far less to use).

To be fair, some Amish do allow exceptions for businesses competing with the “English” for business, in that they are allowed to use such modern conveniences as telephones and motor vehicles for business purposes. That doesn’t mean they’re “cheating”, at least not by their standards, altho no doubt other Amish disagree.

Details: I asked the Amish carpenter if its cheating and he looked pained as he said, paraphrasing: “You aren’t allowed any modern thing that you would be proud of. So you can get a car if its necessary, but it has to be a car that a normal person would think is junk. The idea is to avoid pride in any object. I don’t want any grief, so I don’t talk about my car. You might say its a secret in the closet. A cellphone should be an old model most would throw out, but many wives still buy the latest one and its a big problem and the elders can’t make them stop. Its a big problem that we are resigned to accept. ” (Its a strange mentality. Tech is as embarrassing as being gay to them. They hide both in closets).

“Can Tesla Convert The Hardcore Gas Crowd? It only takes two things to answer this question: an open mind free of an agenda, and a 30 minute test drive in a Tesla. You can talk and write opinions forever, but a spirited test drive reveals a fundamental truth about the quality of the ride, comfort, performance, etc. A fundamental truth is self evident.

Yes I agree, BEVs are not for everyone or “every” situation. Also true, Teslas are expensive – but compared to what? Comparably equipped models by: BMW,Audi, Porsche, Jaguar, Maserati, Lexus or a mass market Toyota, VW, Nissan, Honda. Will gasoline stay “subsidized cheap” forever? Truth be told, the roar of a performance ICE, the burble of the noxious exhaust, rowing through the gears is indeed intoxicating- yes fun too.

Then again there is the ultimate test. Part One, park your Tesla in a garage, turn on the motor, close the garage door, listen to the streaming tunes and take a long nap. Now, part two, do the same with you Mustang or F-150 …

There are very few things wrong with Tesla. In fact, there are lots of great things about Tesla. But people have their preferences. Just ask people who have driven Honda’s all their lives who refuse to buy Toyota, or people who drive Chevy all their lives and refuse to drive Ford. I will drive an EV, but it will never be a Tesla. That’s all.

I am sure there were people 100 years ago that were praising good old reliable horses and saying that they will never ride in horseless carriages.

Bob’s reasoning underscores several biases – he considers Tesla to be not very well tested and he thinks the company is unlikely to be around in 10 years. Yet, it was about 10 years ago when GM and Chrysler needed a multi-billion government bailout to keep them in business. Somehow he doesn’t see that it is actually the legacy automakers that are being threatened with extinction, if they don’t catch up to Tesla.

As my comment said, I will absolutely buy an EV (Taycan or BMW are at the top of my list) once I get a chance to try them out. Just no Tesla for me.

I live in Nor Cal. I’m a Tesla supporter but not an owner. I think a better question is “Can Tesla move beyond early adopters?” The model 3 until now has been price-constrained to address the actual market it was supposed to target ($55K v. $35K). But even if Tesla delivers a car at that target price point they face significant resistance due to no ability to get your car serviced outside of Tesla—if you’re lucky enough to have a service center close. Reality is for most buyers ther is nowhere to service the car or get parts nearby on a day to day basis in a pinch. I understand the electric vehicle has inherent greater reliability but they do break, certain parts wear out or are consumable. Where there is a Tesla service center, the wait is significant. If you damage you’re car, it’s almost impossible for local body shop to get parts. Out-of-warranty service and repair costs are still largely unknown. And of course the uncertainty as to Tesla’s long-term survival is a big issue beyond early adopters, especially in light of 100% dependence on Tesla since they have no dealer infrastructure to disperse the operating risk to… Read more »
Do Not Read Between The Lines

I don’t think it’s worth waiting for VW group products. I can’t bear the thought of owning a car that would remind me of dieselgate every day. That bunch of greedy, murderous liars set EVs back years.

I’d rather give Tesla a chance to work on improving service. It’s clear their cash constraints made them cut a bunch of customer service side stuff, and we’ll see if that improves as the cash situation imoroves

Wait no more, the Porsche Taycan is coming next year. The Audi e-tron is also coming soon.

I expect it will be a lot like the current massive transition the US is undergoing from coal to natural gas. New technology means natural gas is cheaper, so coal is no longer financially viable, so it goes away.

Electric cars will eventually be cheaper than ICE, and so ICE cars will go away. “Hardcore Windows 95 users will never accept Windows XP, never!” Electric cars are what’s next.

STILL MISSING THE POINT! This isn’t a car disruption. It’s an ENERGY disruption. Electricity replacing oil. Battery storage in cars and power plants just barely beginning. EV growth worldwide is MORE then doubling every 2 years (inside EV’s global EV sales since 2013). Global installed solar doubles every 2.1 years like clockwork for 15+ years and now solar/wind/hydro are 40% of all US grid supply while coal is down to 30% and falling (USDOE) We are VERY early in the disruption. How many horse owners never bought a car…(those loud, damnable road hogs driving at breakneck speeds). Mostly they will be older, much older or completely dependent on auto/oil for livelihood (mechanics, dealerships, autoparts stores….) The mainstream conversion will be due to economics. We are lacking in long term data and will be for another 5-7 years as to lifetime cost of ownership on BEV’s, however the electric motor predates ICE and there are mountains of data on durability and wear. Tesla guaranteeing 1,000,000 miles on the semi motors and proclaiming stats in the 500,000 range on cars is not getting pulled out of their behinds. Lastly there are gov’ts (not the home of Big Oil) who have enacted laws… Read more »

This is the problem with EV crowds, self discussing in the same echo dome.

The problem isn’t about converting the hardcore gas crowd. The problem is about converting the mass market buyers. There will always be hardcore buyers in anything that won’t convert. But that doesn’t matter if the core mass market has moved on. That is what matters.

Converting to gasoline cars didn’t kill off every horses or equestrians on the planet. But most of us don’t ride horses anymore.

“The problem isn’t about converting the hardcore gas crowd.”

Several comments above make the same point, so your comment about an EV advocates’ “echo dome” (or echo chamber) is misplaced.

I find it hard to think this person is a car guy when he compares and SUV to a sedan…

Don’t even bother. Those that reject the obvious only do so for attention. Let them drive around in old school ICE, pay double for ‘fuel’, pay quadruple for maintenance, pay for emissions testing, pay more to go slower, pay more for being noisy, let them spend over a full day in line at gas stations ‘refueling’ every year they won’t get back.

I’m sure there were a lot of folks attached to their horses and would never buy one of those horseless carriages.

For those who are petrol heads who have given cars like Tesla a proper and fair go, and it’s not for them…I can respect their decision. I have no respect for those who have dismissed it without doing any research or giving it a try.

Some people will never accept change, even for the better. That is just human nature. These people will die off fairly quickly, and be replaced by younger generations with no aversion to new technology.


I consider the term “gas crowd” offensive. That was all of us just a few years ago. There are many people who cannot afford Teslas or are waiting for Tesla to improve its build quality for the money they charge. People also are waiting for public charging networks to expand further. And what about those people who live in condos or apartments with uncaring building owners/landlords when it comes to installing chargets?

Bob is a complete bonehead. Period. and is undoubtedly working in a the ICE industry and is watching it crumble before his eyes… better start looking for a new job Bob… He is the same guy that won’t let go of his gun, no matter how many kids are shot to death each year… old school small minded, non forward thinking individual. At least Elon is trying to look after this planet one car at a time. Tesla will continue to push to the affordable market. That is his main objective but needs the profits of the higher end models to make that financially viable. They will come.