UPDATE: Volkswagen’s Electrify America To Shut Down CHAdeMO Aspirations?

APR 18 2018 BY MARK KANE 183

Volkswagen’s Electrify America announced its DC fast charging suppliers for its large post-dieselgate charging infrastructure project, and it seems the network will not be standard-neutral.

Electrify America fast charging network

Electrify America intends to install chargers that will support CHAdeMO and CCS Combo (J1772 Combo) cars, but the press release and images of chargers indicates a huge disproportion in favor of CCS1.

***UPDATE – Electrify America reached out to us with comment on the CHAdeMO support situation. Here’s the statement sent to us:

The CHAdeMO connectors are certified at 100kW at 200 amps, however we have de-rated those connectors to 50kW.  The CHAdeMO connectors will stay de-rated until testing with all vehicles and adaptors are successfully completed.

The intent is to offer 100kW for electric vehicles in the future. As a clarification – all dual-CHAdeMO and CCS chargers are capable of 150kW on the CCS-side and capable of a 100kW on the CHAdeMO-side. 

As previously explained the CHAdeMO is de-rated to 50kW. (And that is for ABB, BTC Power, Efacec and Signet).  Since the de-rating is done by software, we will enable the 100kW CHAdeMO connectors at new and existing chargers after sufficient testing.

Related – VW Electrify America To Use ABB, BTC Power, Efacec and Signet Fast Chargers

CCS is supported by Volkswagen Group and most of the other manufacturers, but CHAdeMO (supported by Nissan/Mitsubishi) is popular too.

Read Also – EV Sales By Fast Charging Standards; The “Big 3” Converge – 2017 Edition

The plan released by Electrify America sounds like the CHAdeMO would be only 50 kW, while the CCS combo chargers will be 50 kW, 150 kW or 350 kW, depending on locations.

“All charging stations will offer a CHAdeMO1 (50kW) connector, plus additional dual-handle chargers with CCS1 (50 to 150kW or350 kW) connectors, ensuring that all fast charging capable cars will be able to use the Electrify America stations. Metropolitan charging stations will have three to six chargers with CCS1 connectors, while highway stations will offer four to ten.”

Moreover, there could be a difference in the number of CHAdeMO and CCS1 stalls at the sites.

We are not sure whether it is an intentional hit on Nissan or if CHAdeMO capability will be upgraded from to 150 kW or 350 kW later, as CHAdeMO Association said that there is capability for 200 kW and 400 kW is coming.

“The chargers have been custom-designed for Electrify America and have several advanced features including liquid-cooled cables. This is the first time that liquid cooled CCS1 charging cables have received certification. The cooling is a key factor in enabling higher-amperage charging without a significant increase in the cable thickness for charging power at and above 150kW from 350 amps.

The majority of Electrify America’s ultra-fast charging systems will utilize the RADOX® HPC (High Power Charging) System from HUBER+SUHNER which features a much smaller cable cross section than the traditional high-powered cable option. These cooled cables are thinner, more flexible, lighter and easier to handle.”

Here are the images:

BTC Power charger for Electrify America – 50 kW CHAdeMO and 150 kW CCS

Efacec charger for Electrify America – 50 kW CHAdeMO and 150 kW CCS

Signet charger for Electrify America – no CHAdeMO and two 350 kW CCS

As you can see, the chargers are envisioned to be 50 kW CHAdeMO, while the CCS-compatible cars will be able to use up to 150 kW.

In the case of the highway chargers, like the 350 kW Signet chargers, there are two CCS plugs and no CHAdeMO.

In other words, when the network is complete with such chargers, the market competitiveness of the CHAdeMO cars and Nissan will be worse compared to CCS, than it was before the network – at least until CHAdeMO maybe gets upgraded to 150 kW.

This certainly feels biased towards Volkswagen and will improve its position over early electric car company Nissan, not something that should be possible through this penitentiary infrastructure project managed by Electrify America.

Categories: Charging, Volkswagen

Tags: , , , , , ,

Leave a Reply

183 Comments on "UPDATE: Volkswagen’s Electrify America To Shut Down CHAdeMO Aspirations?"

newest oldest most voted
bro1999

CHAdeMO needs to fade away. It is the HD-DVD of the BluRay/HD-DVD wars of a decade ago. Basically every major manufacturer outside of Nissan (and Tesla indirectly) support CCS (VW group/GM/Ford/Hyundai+KIA/Honda/BMW/Mercedes).

Ok, let Tesla have their propriety SC network, but make CHAdeMO go away. It’s overdue for that to happen, and is just a matter of time.

Also, you better believe those 500 Porsche fast charging stations will be CCS only as well.

Rightofthepeople

You’re probably right bro, although as a former Leaf owner I just hate to see Chademo go away. But yes, eventually we had to setttle on a standard.

BTW you’re a troll, a FUDster, a Tesla basher, and I hear you like to drown kittens in the river just for kicks. (I don’t really believe any of that, but you know those comments are coming so I thought I’d get things started)

Have a great day! 🙂

Will

😂😂😂😂

bro1999

Glad we got that out of the way early. I wish this place accepted signatures, then I could just compile all the hater comments in there so other IEV readers could be spared the comments. Lol

Mark.ca

There is no need to add sigs, we all know you are the lone GM fanboi.

bro1999

PSA is also on the CCS wagon…if they ever release any cars using it.

John Doe

They are working on a drive unit with semi integrated power electronics, fairly similar to Renaults solution – but with a difference in the motor design.

wavelet

Also Jaguar, Chrysler, Volvo, Renault (future models) and even Honda in the US .

ffbj

It’s probably best to move to CCS, the fact that Nissan supports CHAdeMOO (cause it’s slow) may have something to do with VW slighting it.

From the article: until it gets updated to 150 kWh.
Well that does not make sense to me, as I don’t think they will update their plans to electrify some of America to accommodate an eventually faster CHAdeMO option.

Tony Williams

Of course they won’t upgrade a competitor! And, the CHAdeMO Association gave up their leadership position in setting standards, as they drag their feet to get to 400kW.

Timmy

Cows aren’t that slow.

a-kindred-soul

It depends where you are. Here in France CHAdeMO was first and there are much more CHAdeMO fast chargers. Even in a modern Hyundai Ioniq EV (which has CCS) you cannot take a normal cross country drive here, but in my older Kia Soul EV with less range but with CHAdeMO I can go from one edge of the country to the other without problems.

CHAdeMO was first, works well, the standard can be upgraded and current can flow in two directions.

Why did they introduce another standard? THAT is the question and THAT is what looks like the old, silly video standards war.

Eric Cote

In France, I don’t really care what happens. Which I don’t mean in a negative way. What I mean is that there needs to be a single standard on each continent, and they don’t have to be the same until Elon installs his vehicle-carrying hyperloop under the ocean.

I said this 5 years ago, the sooner we settle on one standard, the better. There’s many good reasons that should be CCS for North America, in my opinion.

It would have been easier 5 years ago with only a few thousand Leafs on the road having Chademo. It will still be a lot easier to do now than 5 years from now.

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Complete myth.

ICEVs have managed with mutliple fuel types and those fuel types need multiple fuel tanks at each gas station.

Multiple charging standards are a piece of cake in comparison. Handling a charging standard means a plug, a cable and some software.

Tony Williams

That’s exactly correct. Even Plug-In hybrids use multiple fuel sources in ONE car! Amazing.

Diesel, gasoline, and natural gas (and ethanol, etc) have been sold side by side for decades.

CHAdeMO, Tesla Superchargers, Megachargers, SAE-CCS-Combo1, CCS-Combo2, GB/T, etc, all use the very same electricity. They will all operate just fine, side by side, just like diesel and gasoline.

Eric Cote

There is no need to have different dispensers for the same fuel!

Bill Howland

“Very Same Electricity”.

As a practical matter, not really. Even Tesla sells 3 different versions of the same car for different countries. If this was frequency sensitive equipment – that would be another issue but its not with cars since they aren’t very frequency sensitive. The bigger issue is the type of fast home charging in Europe is not as easily done in North American and Vice Versa.

72 ampere Model S charging in the states is not legal in most Euro locales.

16, 32 or 63 ampere 400 volt charging ‘easy’ in Europe requires a few appurtenances to work in North American homes, as well as a knowledgeable electrician.

Eric Cote

Multiple fuel types are dispensed by the same type of dispenser. Here you’re arguing for the same fuel type dispensed by different dispensers. That is entirely different and non-sensical.

Bill Howland

“Vehicle carrying, under Ocean Hyper-LOOP”????

Seeing as how the first mile test Rust-O-Loop was such a Smashing Success (emphasis on ‘smashing’) it may be a year or two before you have to worry about that.

That is unless you’re looking for a good way to decrease the population in a hurry.. One ‘accident’ (which never ever happens in a Tesla, at least not one which is the company’s fault) will kill everyone in the entire tube immediately. That’s assuming the thing even begins to work, which of course, it does not.

European vs American car charging standards are for more standardized than Toasters and Table Lamps even within Continental Europe. UK usually wants to always do its own thing – the only place where ‘ring’ ckts are common.

Pushmi-Pullyu

This tinfoil-hat “analysis” of Elon Musk’s Hyperloop brought to you by someone who believes that NASA faked the moon landings, and that airlines add poison to their jet fuel to make “chemtrails” in the sky!

Oh, and since this discussion is supposed to be about EV fast chargers, he also believes that on hot days, those chargers are powered on hot days by emergency generators at hospitals and universities! If you think I’m kidding, see here:

https://insideevs.com/op-ed-reality-plug-hybrid/#comment-1198281

Brian

Nice ad hominem. If you can’t find fault in the argument, find fault in the person making it.

Brian

Oh, and clearly you made absolutely zero effort to understand Bill’s attempts to explain load shedding. The beauty of the grid is that it allows multiple generators and multiple consumers to all share electricity. If I plug in my Bolt and suddenly draw 50kW from the grid, it has to come from somewhere. If that triggers someone to fire up a diesel generator in order to sustain the grid voltage, guess what – I am responsible for the burning of that diesel fuel. At that moment, my Bolt is effectively diesel-powered. And why would that happen on a hot day? Because lots of people are running air conditioners of course.

But rather than try to understand one of the more intelligent and experienced people here, you throw accusations and buzzwords at him. Tell me, what did you hope to accomplish with this post?

Bill Howland
Brian – thanks for the elaborate support – Pushi is just that mighty Keyboard Warrior who cannot come up with an independent thought himself. I’ve never mentioned it here or anywhere, but Pushi has TRULY Stumbled onto the truth. First things first. From 1969-2016 (some 47 years) I fully believed in the moon landings, as told to us by Trusted Reporter Walter Cronkite. I was of rather tender years then – but one thing that stuck out as queer in my mind was, ‘Why was a Seasoned, experienced reporter – who had seen the western side of WWII amoungst other things, constantly getting so GIDDY about every single Moon Rock the astronauts touched?’, since I wanted to hear what they were saying to each other. HAHA! But that was the whole point. It reminded me of a place where I used to volunteer at for many years: the general manager, and ‘accountant’ who was suspected of shoving huge amounts of monies into his pocket, was in danger of being fired. At the general meeting the general manager was at the Podium, and everytime he said anything, a guy I never saw before would constantly jump up and clap and say… Read more »
Tony Williams

Bill,

I’m not sure I understand you’re position. Your belief now is that the moon landings were faked, correct?

I don’t need an explanation for either a yes or no answer, but I’ll admit that “yes” answer will explain a LOT for me.

By the way, you might not be aware that I hold an Airline Transport Pilot license, and we regularly fly over your house with transport category turbojet powered aircraft carrying…ljdjfhtbhfidi.

Sorry, can’t say anymore. Gotta go.

Eric Cote

Who cares what he thinks about the moon landings. I’m not going to call everything you say garbage Tony, just because I may think you’re very limited in biased in the charging standard arena. You still likely have a lot of valuable insights and opinions, even if I disagree with some of them.

What’s the moon got to do with any of it? Bill’s knowledge of electricity distribution and supply/demand comes from years of experience in that field, and not armchair quarterbacking.

Back to the original point, companies with generators absolutely get incentivized to shed load during peak demand periods, and/or start up their generator. My own employer has a couple whole-building generators and they were approached about it as well.

Tony Williams

Well, neither moon landings, chem trails, nor grid load shedding have much to do with VW installing one CHAdeMO (with CCS, at a low 50-100kW power setting), while installing 4 or more CCS @ at up to 350kW.

Bill Howland

Hey I was just being honest – although Pushi had no knowledge of it – just a lucky guess on his part. As far as the other subjects go – it is Pushi who went off on a tangent, not me. But both you guys seem to me not to be the friendliest people I’ve ever met – you always are trying to find the slightest excuse for finding fault. And yes, DC is usually DC. Not a big revelation on that point.

Bill Howland

The moon landings served a very good purpose. I like former CIA director William Casey’s general comment:

“When everything the American Public believes is a LIE, then we know our information campaign has been successful”.

His words, not mine. I just like to hear public officials make honest statements, as this particular one seems to be.

Bill Howland

Clarkson: Thanks for the support. You and Brian’s professional ‘gravitas’ tends to shut down the primary school arguments of Pushi, et al, which seems to include now Mr. Williams – amazing that he would want to wade into this childishness since I was under the impression he is still an advertiser here.

I hope the comments he makes here have little relation to his products he sells. Any I’ve talked to who have purchased them so far, seem to be happy with the products and the price they are offered at.

Bill Howland

Well, at least I’ve never said “The only way to charge an EV is to have it plugged in”. Even Pushi knows that, as well as anyone who has gone down a hill, or enabled ‘Hilltop Reserve’ on a Bolt Ev.

So I wouldn’t get super impressed with yourself. As others have said here, just because you know about legalities and protocols doesn’t necessarily translate into other areas.

Micke Larsson

You must be a bad planner if you can’t go with the CCS network. It’s basically covering all of France.

http://ccs-map.eu/

Brian

They introduced it for a couple of reasons, but my understanding is that it had a lot to do with re-tooling of equipment. Using CCS meant that the fuel cap could essentially be re-purposed as a charge port because it “combined” two plugs into 1 all-purpose socket which would fit within that space – AC and DC. This meant that the bodyshop didn’t have to be rearranged to reposition the charge port to another part of the vehicle.

As someone who works as an engineer / project manager deploying charging infrastructure, the variation in socket position is a massive pain in the ass. They should all just install the charge port in the front/back centre of the car and be done with it! Cars designed for RHD countries become much less useable in LHD countries and vice-versa because they never bother swapping the charge port to the correct side along with the steering wheel. Anyone who’s had to trail a charging cable over the roof of their car has felt that pain.

JoeS.

Disagree with you on location of charge port – it should be opposite from the driver’s door, either at the front or back. On my i-MiEV (J1772 is on right rear) I can park my car right next to the garage wall (leaving plenty of space to open the driver’s door) and need only pull out one metre of cable to plug it in, quickly and cleanly. Since in town I always back into parking spaces, it’s also conveniently located for public charging. I do agree with you that the compromise of center front or center rear is probably best for world cars.

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Disagree.
Center not good for us.
I like to back into my garage. No space behind the rear.
Wife likes to pull forward into the garage. No space in front of the car.

Driver’s side in front of door is the best for home charging and that’s where the most plugging and unplugging is done.

Center is just what makes it easier for manufacturers serving both LHD and RHD markets.

Robert Weekley

Problem: Big Car in Small Garage!

Asak

This is silly. I mean you guys are joking, right? Sometimes it’s hard to tell.

The truth is everyone’s charging situation is different. There’s no way to come up with a hard and fast rule that’s going to work universally.

I have to back my Leaf in because it’s parked tandem and the charge cord won’t reach the front when it’s parked that way. For my specific situation I’d rather if it was on the back on either side. At the same time in many other cases the front charge point is better.

It all just depends, and we each have to make do with whatever our specific situation is.

Magnus H

The difference to your example is the installed base of cars, which is a bit more valuable than a DVD-player, and lasts longer.

The AC/DC unit of the charger is the expensive part, what connector is used isn’t important. Of course, the cable is a bit costly, and you need two of those.

I wonder what connector Toyota will use?

MikeB

I wondered that too. Toyota has serious production-sharing deals going with Mazda and Subaru. Gas cars now; hybrids/PHEV’s soon (Prius tech), but those don’t use DC Fast. All three, though, will have to join Nissan in 2, 3, or 4 years in selling BEV’s. Would those three (they must have already decided this?) break with Nissan’s CHAdeMO? Also, the CHAdeMO group includes a major Japanese electric utility. I feel that CHAdeMO looks to be locked in as the dominant standard for that nation and its manufacturers, for domestic sales, at least. So it is not really just Nissan against the world?
I’m interested because a LEAF may be in my future. There, I said it.

Tony Williams

Toyota is a founding member of the CHAdeMO Association.

CHAdeMO is the official protocol of Japan (there is zero CCS, nor will there be), plus CHAdeMO is one of two official standards in Europe.

CHAdeMO leads in every category on every continent:

1) most number of compatible cars (over 700,000 worldwide)

2) most charger installations

3) CHAdeMO leads on every continent, including Europe and North America

Windbourne

in fact, if chademo wants to stay, let them create chargers all over.
It is insane that they have done very little on it. Heck, the chademo cars do not travel far, and do not have chargers that will enable them to go across the nation.
https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=ELEC

so yeah, let them die.

MaartenV-nl

If CHAdeMO did not do anything, how come they are the dominant standard world-wide?
Contrary to CCS, the CHAdeMO standard was not created to slow EV adaption.

I will never understand why there are so many supporters for a standard created to slow EV adaption on EV-fan sites

notting

“CHAdeMO needs to fade away. It is the HD-DVD of the BluRay/HD-DVD wars of a decade ago. Basically every major manufacturer outside of Nissan (and Tesla indirectly) support CCS (VW group/GM/Ford/Hyundai+KIA/Honda/BMW/Mercedes).”

Absolutely! (except that you forgot that Renault is also a member of the CCS board (is that the right English term here?))

notting

rabatjoie

Tesla is part of the CharIn alliance (CCS regulatory body) as well!

MaartenV-nl

And only supports CHAdeMO for alternative charging.

MaartenV-nl

The biggest difference between CHAdeMO and CCS is the superior support for V2G and V2H of CHAdeMO

bjrosen

The faster CHAdeMO goes away the better, conflicting standards are never good. A single standard will speed up the build out of the charging infrastructure and that’s good for everybody.

Robert Weekley

Actually: CHAdeMO IS the “Single Standard”, for fast charging, since, even more than Tesla AND CCS, it is the Same in Japan, USA, Canada, all of Europe, and Australia, & New Zealand! I suspect, also in Middle East & Africa, if installed there, too!

CCS has one design fir North America, another for Europe, and what will be in Mexico to South America? Even Tesla, which has gone on to design a simpler, and more practical interface, uses a different Plug/Socket set in Europe than in North America!

Same for L1 & L2 Charging: North America and Europe use different Plug/Socket designs!

Al S

You completely avoid the main point. VW shouldn’t be able to get a competive advantage through a punishment.

Whether you like CHAdeMO or not, it’s compatible with many more EVs actually on the road in the USa than CCS.

Pat Free

Fair point but you need to construct for the future, and use the money target usefully for future EV drivers. The fact is that CCS has now been standardized for Europe and the US. Soon most countries should force new EVs to come with an applicable CCS cable or even Port or port converter, hopefully replacing in Europe the Type2 AC cable that was mandated a year ago and was so far totally useless for me in France. Asian vendors will get same mandate on CCS as the others and Tesla bet it. So regulators needs to be consistent and not stupidly waste money. Chademo is only needed for the past EVs, that are all at maxi 50kW. So this design is fine for me. Just need to understand how to best plug existing teslas to that in the abscence of a Tesla CCS cable option of any sort so far.

Tony Williams

CHAdeMO is also a DC charge standard in Europe. Official, and everything.

Tony Williams

CHAdeMO is now 200kW (400 amps * 500 volts) and will soon be 400kW (400 amps * 1000 volts). Probably at the convention this year.

MaartenV

The difference in cost between a single standard and dual standard EVSE is so small (less than 5%), that cost is no argument.
In Europe a CHAdeMO plug in mandated for all public CCS chargers.

Rightofthepeople

Looks to me like they are complying with the letter of the law, and nothing more. They are including both standards as required, but doing everything in their power to provide advantages for VW’s chosen standard. Not at all surprising. Also not saying it’s right, just not surprising. Unless the government wants to take further action (not likely) VW / EA will likely be able to do this.

bro1999

It’s not just VW’s chosen standard, it’s the standard of choice of every major non-Japanese auto manufacturer.
IIRC, the specs for 400 kW CHAdeMO haven’t even been released, so no one could actually make a 350-400kW CHAdeMO station even if they wanted to.

Nick

“every major non-Japanese auto manufacturer.”

That’s a very parsed statement.

Another way you can say it: “most EVs can charge with CHAdeMO.”

CHAdeMO also enables easy bidirectional power transfer. CCS should have never happened. It feels like yet another attempt by the laggard legacy OEMs to slow down adoption. At least the all use J1772 this time (remember inductive paddle charging?)

HVACman

CCS didn’t come out of thin air. It is SAE’s DCFC extension of their J1772 standard that every EV in the US and the EU (except Tesla) has used for basic AC charging since 2010 or earlier. SAE International has been THE global standards entity group for the automotive and aerospace industry standards going back almost 100 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_International

SAE first released the CCS extension to the J1772 standard in 2011, but Nissan elected to go with the Chademo Japanese DCFC standard with the Leaf.

The CHAdeMO association was formed by the Tokyo Electric Power Company, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Fuji Heavy Industries (the manufacturer of Subaru vehicles). Toyota later joined as its fifth executive member.

EVs will eventually be the mainstream vehicle made by the global auto makers and most of them are very active and reliant on the SAE for research and standards development. SAE’s CCS extension to the J1772 standard will become the DCFC charge port standard installed in the vast majority of the world’s BEV’s (outside of China). IMHO, the only question is when, not if, Nissan et al figures this out and also adopts it.

jamcl3

SAE is very important, but the IEC and ISO have a lot of influence in Europe also. They constantly try to synchronize with each other. Jurisdiction is partitioned differently however.

Clive

Except non3 of these othe4 manufacturers have done a damn thing to grow the CCS network so it not available in many places that CHAdeMO is available.

bro1999
Brian

I have mixed feelings about this. For us non-Maven Bolt drivers, at least this means they reduced the strain on the true public charging networks. Maybe in 5 years from now, they will open it up to the public. Or maybe the EA network will be so robust that it won’t matter.

bro1999

I bet the Maven Bolt exclusive EVgo stations will not have CHAdeMO plugs. Makes no sense for them to have them.

Al S

Why does the choice of a manufacturer like Fiat/Chrysler count?

They don’t make any fast-charge compatible vehicle.
They only make a limited number of compliance EVs.

Yet, somehow their vote on infrastructure counts as much as Nissan’s or Tesla’s. Dont’t they have an incentive to choose whatever standard will SLOW the adoption of EVs?

Pushmi-Pullyu

I think you’re going to have a hard time finding any logical reason why adopting CCS as the One True Charging Standard would slow the rate of EV adoption. It’s not like CCS is inferior to CHAdeMO from an engineering or practicality standpoint.

Having One True Charging Standard would definitely speed up the installation of EV fast chargers.

Bill Howland

I used to proffer this point with Tony Williams all the time.

CCS (from the car manufacturer’s point of view) is clearly the type of jack they want.

North America and Europe have 2 types of overnight charging (home) connectors, the so called types 1 and 2. Fast charging doesn’t make the situation any worse. It only adds a mere 2 large current carrying pins to whatever existing jack is used, and it eliminates the rather large expense of having a separate jack (and in the I-miev , a totally separate Jack and DOOR, with separate hinges and latches) since the car only has 1 fill point, analogous to a gasoline or diesel powered vehicle.

Now in places where Chademo is extremely popular, such as Japan, the manufacturers have no choice but to support it. But that is not the case in North America, or most of Europe.

theBrandler

Good, we’ll finally be down to one standard in this country.

Vexar

Go, metric!

Wait.

Tesla built their own because nobody else would. Volkswagen isn’t building it, they are being forced, by the courts, to pay for it because they were cheaters. It makes sense to me, don’t be stuck with two different charging standards for your cars. So maybe they don’t do well in Japan. Meh. Small price to pay.

Clive

Correct.

Clive

Tesla gets it.

The other manufacturers choose CCS because they don’t want to pay a fee to CHAdeMo.

Eric Cote

No, they chose CCS because that is the SAE approved standard.

Pjwood1

Tesla is the standard, because they have, or soon will, the most EV miles. The rest just prove they aren’t reliable, convenient, or in other words serious.

Wasting money on Tesla is easy. Buy the adapter for another network, and you will find out how. Buy the car for another network, and if you need long distance you’ll waste much more.

John Doe

Tesla supports CCS too. Just look it up.

jamcl3

I have heard that but never seen a Tesla with a Type 2 DCFC inlet, or even a J1772 DCFC (Type 1) inlet.

Jason

Tesla has adaptors for J1772 and CHAdeMO, not for CCS combo AFAIK. So while they have their own standard, they can also use the other standards. As someone else stated, all you need is the adaptor and the software and you can use any DC charger, it’s not like Petrol & Diesel, it’s just electricity and conversions.

Tony Williams

Tesla is a CHAdeMO Association member as well, long before they were a Europeans CCS member.

Just look it up.

Tony Williams

There isn’t a “fee” to the CHAdeMO Association.

Sorry, Charlie.

vdiv

Go metric indeed! 🙂

EVgo started the same way, as a result of a settlement, but now they’ve spun off from NRG and are concentrating on doing charging. I can see Electrify America gets spun off as well.

Roy_H

CHAdeMO is the first primitive attempt to manufacture a plug for EVs. I can’t believe that Nissan still supports it, let alone forcing VW to support it.

Nemo

OK, please elaborate on how CCS is technologically superior to CHAdeMO.

bro1999

For one, you don’t need to separate charge ports to support J1772 and fast charging.

bro1999

*two

Nick

No, but you need one massive port. That’s a marginal advantage. Tesla does best here.

bro1999

The CCS port adds maybe 2 inches of vertical length to a J1772. Not exactly “massive”. And still much more elegant than the clunky 2 port CHAdeMO setup

Nick

More than two inches for clearance. It’s a crazy big connector. They managed to make a connector with a footprint as large as CHAdeMO (longer even) while reusing pins. Crazy!

Might as well go with two connectors at that point. Look! That’s exactly what CHAdeMO does. Tesla still gets it best. One small connector for all charging.

Aaron

What I don’t like is that a CCS plug, even though its an extension of the J1772 plug, will not fit in a non-CCS plug. This means LEAFs, i-MiEVs, Volts, and others with just a J1772 plug won’t be able to charge, even at 240VAC.

Robert Weekley

As Nissan has known about CCS for quite some time, it would have been a coup for them to add room and build in CCS + CHAdeMO into thus New Leaf design! Maybe they will for their next (60 kWh / 225 Mile Range) Leaf, & any other EV’s they Finaly release! (eNV200, etc!)

ffbj

It’s faster.

Bill Howland
Much , much less expensive to implement in both North America and Europe. Only 2 types of connectors. More standardized than Tesla even, as they have to supply at least 3 different cars world wide – North America, Europe, and then a dual jack solution in China. Whether they supply Chademo to japan via an adapter or separate jack I haven’t been able to determine with any authority. As far as Tesla goes – their charging experience, while overall I’d give the grade for overnight charging at least, of ‘Excellent!’ currently, has not always been smooth sailing – points I won’t rehash here again. They also offer a reworked j1772 adapter which supposedly can easily work at either 32, 40, 48, 72, or 80 amperes. Even if the 80 rate is a bit dicey – Tesla doesn’t sell vehicles with that much onboard charging any longer so that will become less of an issue as time goes on. But ALL current Teslas in North America now have a ‘standard’ charging cord which either charges at 12 amperes at 120 volts, or 32 amps at 190-250 volts. The somewhat troublesome “S” UMC connector which at times ran at 40 amperes, has… Read more »
Nick

Why? CHAdeMO is better in many ways. You can charge the most cars with it.

It supports bidirectional power transfer and has dedicated data pins. The earliest handles were crap but they were replaced with the trigger style handles which are superior.

Tesla’s connector and interface is better than CHAdeMO or CCS.

Clive

Tesla has the best plug in the industry.

The first manufacturer to join Tesla’s network is going to jump ahead or the rest of the pack.

theflew

No other manufacture is going to support Tesla’s charging standard. The current benefit of Tesla’s chargers are availability and performance. But these new DCFC will have better performance without the negative advertising that would be associated with you pulling your non Tesla car to a Tesla charger. And it’s a matter of time before they have more availability than Tesla branded chargers.

SparkEV

Chademo is technically superior to CCS due to simpler signaling. Whoever proposed homeplug for DCFC used in CCS should be drowned like the kitten that bro1999 drowns. They should’ve adopted Chademo to support L2 so only one plug is used, not frankenstein hack job that is CCS.

vdiv

Hear! Hear!
But alas that’s not the news of the day.

jamcl3

Baseband signaling is an advantage in my view, but Tesla also uses baseband (single wire) CAN. The differential (two wire) CAN used by Chademo is rather standard inside cars but is arguably overkill for a low data-rate application such as charging control. And that big honking connector is overkill. Now HomePlugGreenPhy (power line carrier) in CCS, that is overkill.

Robert Weekley

From chadeo.com: “CHAdeMO protocol and connector are identical across the globe. Chargers equipped with the connector can be found in 51 countries on 5 continents.” Plus “22% Of all EVs in the world are equipped with a CHAdeMO inlet, Another 19%, Tesla EVs, are CHAdeMO-compatible thanks to Tesla’s CHAdeMO adapter, and Last but not least, 21% of all world plug-in-hybrids are CHAdeMO compatible.”

2017: “CHAdeMO protocol enabling charging with 100kW continuous power/ 150-200kW peak power (400A x 500V) was published.”

Some other headlines from their site: “CHADEMO CHARGING FROM BARCELONA TO NORTH CAPE”.

So, for a group that lead the way as the first high power charging, getting beat up on by all other player, it seems they are doing OK!

Tony Williams

I read many of the comments that are anti-CHAdeMO and it’s hard for me to believe these aren’t paid trolls.

Bill Howland

They aren’t ‘anti-Chademo’. They are just explaining the ongoing popularity of the CCS jacks.

Some people just don’t get out much. There’s more important stuff to worry about.

The lowest cost, most effective charging standard will win out eventually. Don’t see that as anything to lose any sleep over.

Brian

How misleading is this title? Come on, IEVs, you can do better than this. Electrify America is installing the most powerful chargers available in either Spec. It’s not their fault that CHAdeMO hasn’t defined their 200/400kW spec yet. Would you rather they wait? I wouldn’t. Get them out there already.

Oh, and BTW, this is phase 1 of 3 for Electrify America. Let’s wait until at least phase 2 (when CHAdeMO may have a 400kW spec ready to go) before throwing accusations at VW of attempting to “shut down” the competition.

bro1999

Yep. You snooze, you lose. I have a feeling CHAdeMO will ultimately end up being a Japan-only standard.

Brian

Frankly, I have a feeling that 15 years from now, none of the Big Three (CHAdeMO, CCS, Supercharger) will be the standard, but a new 1MW standard will prevail. Or at least I hope that will be the case.

Bill Howland

1000 kw? I’m wondering who is going to pay for the 350 kw things. You need battery prices to drop through the basement before any of that kind of thing happens.

Of course, then cars will get bigger batteries as well if they become cheaper, so then charging will be less of an issue anyway.

Brian

You don’t need battery prices to be low to make a standard. Heck, anyone can make a standard. My point is that someone will have come up with a connector style that works up to 1000 kW. With any luck, all cars will be equipped with that port, even if they can’t take more than 200kW. Or the stations don’t put out more than 150kW due to demand fees.

jamcl3

If you think “anyone can make a standard”, then you haven’t been to an SAE or IEC standards meeting. J1772 was a “recommended practice” for well over a decade, it only became a “standard” a few years ago.

More to the point, I personally doubt that 350 kW chargers will be cost effective for passenger cars, although they will be great for trucks. Few people driving long distances don’t stop long enough to use a 120 kW charger, probably less than 10% of the long distance market. You cannot amortize the costs over that small of a fraction, especially when >90% of all charging happens at home and work. The total demand ends up being something like 1% of all EV drivers that will care about >120 kW. I could be wrong.

Bill Howland

The first 1000 kw car connector developed will run on around 1500 volts @ 667 amperes, but it won’t be cheap enough to put on every car that someday might want it.

Today it is news when a long-range model 3 charges at 100 kw since it is simply better than anything else.

Let’s see what happens with 350 kw charging (and whether people can actually afford to use it) before being worried greatly about 1000 kw.

You could have a Priusmaniac future – where there are 85 BEV ‘s charging at 1000 kw each (or does he want 10 MW now?) and have a utility 85 MW power generating station in the corner of the parking lot.

Nick

There are a huge number of CHAdeMO chargers and vehicles in the US. Many of the CCS chargers are super lame BMW 24kW units.

If you were to pick a charging standard for access to quick (>= 50kW) chargers today I’d be: Tesla, CHAdeMO, CCS in that order.

Brian

Looks like that is about to change in a big way.

a-kindred-soul

The same here in France. No way you can do comfortable long distance driving with CCS here; the few that are installed are done by a company called Sodetrel that delivers crap chargers, crap software and crap service. You just cannot count on them working. Do you travel regularly and have a one car EV household, you need a Tesla or a CHAdeMO car.

jamcl3

Or a 44 kW AC Renault Zoe. They are not made any longer I hear?

MikeM

The same here in Oregon.

In urban and coastal regions, CHaDeMo utterly outclasses CCS in terms of intelligent siting/spacing and availability. Reliability is generally (I’m talking Aerovironment units here) excellent.
So much so that even in 2018, OR people (me included) will tend to heavily favor EVs with ChadeMo. It’s just there when you need it.

(I coulda had a Bolt – but available charging outscores 80-90 or so extra miles).

Eric Cote

If all our decisions were based on “Today” and not “Tomorrow” we’d have CRT TVs because LCD are too expensive, and still be recording to VHS tapes.

Today shouldn’t be used to forecast and create Tomorrow.

BoltUp

+1

MikeM

Not so sure about that.
A
leased EV has a “life” of 2-3. years. It’s not a life-long commitment. One can easily re-evaluate one’s choice at lease end.
Some of us may even say “Oh, the heck with it – Tesla !!”

Robert Weekley

Once Tesla is actually making & Selling/Delivering 5,000 Model 3’s per week, in addition to their S & X, it will ne warming up the realities that Tesla IS the Leader in EV’s, for thise who have not figured that out! When they are at 10,000 per week, within about 12 Months or so from now, such realization will be a lot hotter!

Nissan could have brought their eNV200 to North America, but have not even really given it a shot here! That would have added to the CHAdeMO pool of cars and demand for that protocol, too!

Also, Mitsubishi did include CHAdeMO on their (Finaly) new PHEV entrant to North America – The Outlander PHEV! That seems to be getting traction in sales, too! In 1st 3 months this year on insideevs list, it grew month by month. So it ain’t dead yet!

Neromanceres

While CHAdeMO standards have been recently updated to allow for faster charging it’s most likely when the planning for these stations were happening CHAdeMO wasn’t there yet.

Also keep in mind there isn’t a single car publicly known to support faster CHAdeMO charging speeds in development while there are many CCS capable cars in the works that will.

Electrify America has a four phase plan. As part of the other three phases we could certainly see some of the CHAdeMO’s be upgraded to support faster charging speeds if demand warranted it.

tftf

Well said.

Not even the new 2018 Leaf accepts it. Maybe the 2019 Leaf will.

Here’s more about Chademo 1.2 and 2.0:

“200kW protocol (CHAdeMO 1.2) published and 400kW protocol (2.0) revision on-going”

tftf

I’m pretty sure EA will add 1.2 and 2.0 chargers in later phases, this roll-out is just phase 1 until late 2019.

tftf

Here you go:

According to Electrify America spokesman Mike Moran, “The CHAdeMO connectors are certified at 100 kW at 200 amps, however we have de-rated those connectors to 50 kW. The CHAdeMO connectors will stay de-rated until testing with all vehicles and adaptors are successfully completed. The intent is to offer 100kW for electric vehicles in the future.”

“Since the de-rating is done by software, we will enable the 100 kW CHAdeMO connectors at new and existing chargers after sufficient testing”, he said.

The press release also leaves it unclear what the typical mix of CHAdeMO to CCS charging will be at a typical location but does imply that at least one CHAdeMO charger will be installed.

The CHAdeMO Association published updated specifications last year supporting 200 kW charging power (400A at 500V) with liquid-cooled cables and is due to publish support for up to 1,000V later this year.

https://electricrevs.com/2018/04/18/electrify-america-supporting-only-50-kw-chademo/

a-kindred-soul

My 2015 Kia Soul EV CHAdeMO car can charge at 80 kW.

jamcl3

How many EVs in development will support even 120 kW? And of those, how many are in the price range of a Model 3? Not many I think. Maybe zero.

Robert Weekley

Kia Soul EV was demo’d on 100 kW CHAdeMO, in Europe, over 2 years ago! It handled it ok too!

Tony Williams

The Kia Soul EV can accept 200 amps… about 75kW maximum.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Also keep in mind there isn’t a single car publicly known to support faster CHAdeMO charging speeds in development while there are many CCS capable cars in the works that will.”

Thank you, sir!

Even if current CHAdeMO chargers really are technologically superior to current CCS chargers, as some here are claiming, the problem is that CHAdeMO isn’t being updated as fast as CCS is. CHAdeMO is going to be left dropping further and further behind as the EV revolution progresses, just as is happening with the Leaf.

Rich Weiner

VW’s Electrify America has done an outstanding job in a short amount of time to comply within the settlement guidelines AND provide a valuable forward looking network for EV’s. The amount of work EA has had to perform is likely not ever to be seen, but it has been considerable. From my perspective, the EA group has managed to be standard and brand agnostic, focusing providing the best solutions under government overlook. Not an easy task. Through their efforts, the world of transportation has taken a leap forward. We will all be better for it.

Brian

I agree with your sentiment, but change “Through their efforts, the world of transportation has taken a leap forward” to “Through their efforts, the world of transportation will soon take a leap forward”.

I cannot wait for their hardware to roll out nationwide. My Bolt will suddenly get all that much better!

Nick

The bolt and new leaf are such lame quick charging cars due to aggressive taper.

I hope they fix it on the 2019 versions.

Brian

Agreed. While I’m happy to live with the 2017 Bolt’s limitations, I think it will ultimately be a hindrance to sales. I hope they figure out how to provide closer to 100kW all the way up to 80%.

Robert Weekley

Sure! Use A123 Systems LiFePO4 cells! (Ooops! The total kWh & Regular range might drop, but the 60 kWh sized pack, might drop to 50 or 40 kWh, yet it could handle 150 kW charging on a 40 kWh A123 System pack!)

ffbj

Of course you still won’t be able to drive to, through, MT, ND,SD,UT,NV,ID,IA, and it may take years to develop and implement, but yeah break out the noise makers, and party hats and have a celebration.

Brian

Doesn’t affect me in the least. I just want to be able to travel through upstate NY and New England without having to meticulously plan every stop (with backups of course)

EVShopper

That northern route was pretty late development for Tesla too.

Just not a lot of people or EVs there.

Robert Weekley

Chicken, Meet Egg!

Maybe the Tesla Pickup, or a decent priced Model Y will increase the Tesla EV impact in those areas!

If Ford makes a PHEV F-150, it will probably get some sales traction in those areas, increasing charging infrastructure value, too!

ffbj

Right. It was the last area in the U.S. that Tesla completed., along with parts of the deep South.
I was thinking the first EV truck or PHEV in the area would certainly be an indicator than an assault on the last hold-out to go electric in the passenger vehicle space, has begun. Make it with a gun rack as a standard feature.

Chris

CHAdeMO has had numbered days since CCS was finalized. Nissan is also a member of the CCS consortium. CHAdeMO IS the required DC port in Japan (Google Japanese BMW i3 – CHAdeMO in charge society flap, J1772 in the front trunk). Nissan will have to either make a CCS adapter, or start shipping cars with CCS (and upgrade their DC chargers to dual plugs). Tesla doesn’t have a CCS adapter, yet. However it’s not legit to say “most” EVs use CHAdeMO. Of the cars that offer DC fast, Tesla, Kia, Nissan, and Mitsubishi offer(ed) CHAdeMO. Ford, BMW, GM, VW, and Hyundai all chose CCS because it *is* the SAE standard. CCS is also a considerably friendlier plug than CHAdeMO. CHAdeMO has the V2G ability built in, but so does CCS. BMW has offered v2g in Europe since the i3 launched. The reason we don’t have it in the US are the competing plug station dards AND local laws that will make it difficult to have bidirectional power flow (ask anyone with grid tied solar what the regulatory hoops are)…

Brian

“However it’s not legit to say “most” EVs use CHAdeMO”

Why not? Remember that Tesla can use CHAdeMO with an adaptor. With that, plus the native CHAdeMO cars like the Leaf, it’s 100% factual to state that most EVs can use CHAdeMO. At least in 2018, on US roads.

Bill Howland

Not native – optional at extra cost – unless you got the decked out model. I’m sure you knew that already since your leaf didn’t have Chademo.

Brian

“In computing, software or data formats that are native to a system are those that the system supports with minimal computational overhead and additional components.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_(computing)

I believe you are confusing this with “standard”.

Eric Cote

Native or standard, if the postulate is that most cars can charge with Chademo, that’s only true if most cars have Chademo. Most have J1772, some have CCS, some have Chademo. I think it’s not as clear cut at the moment to say most can use Chademo, but I think it will be clear cut in the next few years to say most can use CCS.

Bill Howland

HAHA! You got me. Of course then you’d also have to say that charging any European EV at home in the states is also ‘Native’ since, for instance – you can always charge a RENAULT ZOE at 22 kw with a simple Rotary Phase converter and transformer. You personally can do this at your house with no huge investment.

CCS charging at home is even easier, what with the Bosch 25 kw (single phase input) wall chargers being sold commercially. No appurtenances needed. In places they say a 165 ampere ckt is needed, but that is only at 170 volts. Most homes could easily run this unit on an easy 125 amp circuit. And although $10,000 on Amazon, the list price keeps going down all the time as shown on this link:

https://www.boschevsolutions.com/charging-stations/power-dc-plus-25kw?sku=EL-52240

Bill Howland

As a for instance, supposing that 240 volts ( the listed voltage for inspection purposes – which is all that matters to the inspector) could be maintained, the current draw of the unit at a full 25 kw output would be 113 amperes.

No derating is necessary since your BOLT ev would recharge at the full 25 kw rating for well under 3 hours.

Bill Howland

Now my home for instance, with the lousy juice being supplied to my neighborhood in the summer time by an incompetent National Grid, to charge at 25 kw at my home would require a minimum 150 ampere circuit, easily doable, although in my case it would require a Service Upgrade (and a Car Upgrade).

Bill Howland

One point where the Bosch DC charger Brochure is mistaken: They say only a ‘125 ampere breaker’ is required for either 208 or 240 volt systems. At exactly 208 volts (difficult to maintain this pressure as that is the ‘no load’ voltage – only place you could do that near your house is at “MOST” since the system voltage is 125Y/216 and the joint has a 4,000 ampere electric service), the unit draws 131 amperes.

But if you did install this unit with only a 125 A feed, the Brochure is what you’d show to the electrical inspector.

Roy_H

Just because you can buy an adapter for CHAdeMO doesn’t make it “most cars are designed for CHAdeMO” Adapters don’t count when you describe a car’s design.

ffbj

Right, that would seem to be the case.

Brian

“most cars are designed for CHAdeMO”

But that’s not what he said. Again, Chris said:

“However it’s not legit to say “most” EVs use CHAdeMO”

“designed for” and “use” are different things. A Tesla is not “designed for” CHAdeMO, but it can certainly use it!

bro1999

Also, CCS is capable of billing based off vehicle VIN without the use of cards or apps. Literally can support plug and pay. I can’t find the article that described that capability, but I know I read it. I don’t I’ve read about a similar feature for CHAdeMO.

ffbj

I’ll vouch for that, cause I read that, too.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

“Also, CCS is capable of billing based off vehicle VIN without the use of cards or apps. ”

+1
I believe ya!

mzs.112000

So, hypothetically, I could plug in a CCS1 car to a CCS1 charge unit, and it could automatically find my account in their charging network and I would no need an RFID card?

EVShopper

That’s my understanding based on some early articles about the EA network plans.

Bill Howland

Manufacturers obviously ignore Chademo since they have to provide a ‘type 1’ jack in the states anyway. CCS is only 2 more pins on the j1772 jack. MUCH MUCH cheaper to make the car.

It was rather uncanny that the extra ‘cheap’ I-Miev had 2 – doored jacks on either side of the car, to support Chademo.

Most car manufacturers aren’t going to put that much money into the silly car charging Jack.

For Europeans who say, ‘Why not just use a MENNEKES jack for everything – 2 problems.

1). Most ‘type 2’ jacks are limitied to 32 amperes, whereas the J1772 now allows 80 amperes.

2). Car manufacturers dont want to spend the money in the North American market for an extra unused pin.

jamcl3

Type 2 AC couplers rated for 63 amps per pin (44 kW in Europe) are readily available. Tesla uses advanced receptacles in a Type 2 that supports up to about 160 amps per pin (over 4 DC pins) for about 20 minutes before derating to about 110 amps, without cooling. This fits the SuperCharger duty cycle with tapering, and without the big 8 mm pins of the so-called combo connectors. I am implying the numbers from ratings stickers on SuperCharger stalls.

Bill Howland

This is why I said “MOST” , not “ALL”. And 80 ampere requirements would be difficult to satisfy if the limitation is 63 amperes.

Some of the electric truck manufactures state side are using the j1772 80 ampere allowability – since several manufacturers besides Tesla have also commonplace 80 ampere wallboxes, giving a charge rate of 16-19 kw which is adequate for most of the larger vehicles for overnight charging.

a-kindred-soul

Why all this extra investment money for different standards, more expensive dual standard chargers? We EV drivers will pay it together, and it slows down EV adoption. CHAdeMO was there first. Europe has much more CHAdeMO chargers and more CHAdeMO able cars. Why the silliness of introducing a second standard, CCS, later?

JoeInTheUK

Europe has much more CHAdeMO chargers and more CHAdeMO able cars. Why the silliness of introducing a second standard, CCS, later?
——-

Like it or not, Europe is now switching to CCS, and Chademo, though by far the most predominant *at the moment* , as someone else posted is a dead man walking.

My current car is a Soul with chademo, the next version in 2019 they’ve already announced will be CCS. This is common for most manufacturers.

It’s going to be a pain for a while, most chargers I pull up at now will have 2 or 4 chademo and just one CCS but that’s going to have to change.

Doug Warren

Is there anywhere that specifies a timeframe for all of the connecting dots in the map to be installed? The dots that don’t exist today.

Texas Leaf

The dots shown on the map are first cycle charging stations. The first cycle ends in June of 2019. That’s right, by this time next year most of those dots should be charging stations.

Kdawg

I wonder if any thought has been put into future-proofing these stations for wireless charging? Yes, it’s a ways off, but if you’re going to do the work, might as well do it right.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

“HUBER+SUHNER”

There should’ve been a mandate that the manufacturers of these stalls be a US company and made in the USA.

I betcha they both have investing holding with each other.

EVShopper

Bummer that ChargePoint didn’t get part of the contract. I like their chargers.

Texas Leaf

I will worry about faster charging when there are faster chargers and when there are non-Tesla cars that can charge faster, which is going to be at least a few years. Maybe when my lease is up I can get a car with faster charging. Until then I will just have to be content with the 150 miles range and 50 kW charging of my 2018 Leaf.

Hauer

1.
Sorry, but who else is committed to Chademo?

2.
How much did Nissan invest into Chademo charging stations?

3.
So what.

Texas Leaf

It looks like Mitsubishi and Toyota are going with CHAdeMO. They’re small players on the EV front now but that could change big in a few years.

Willem-Alexander

Then they better spend big bucks building out a CHAdeMO network, otherwise, they are going to really inconvenient their EV buyers.

Micke Larsson

The sooner we get rid of Chademo the better. It is dead outside of Japan so I don’t understand why people keep flogging it.

Reaf

Is it just me who can see a faint ‘Hakenkreuz’ in your SEXY logo ?

Micke Larsson

It’s probably just you. But let’s make your imaginary vision into a solar swastika, a sign of spiritual purity.

Reaf

Let’s see. Maybe you’re just a paid troll.

CCIE

Good, Chademo is a dead-man-walking in the US. Anything that hastens its demise and brings us closer to a single standard is a plus.

Shane

Sad that rest of the industry does not adopt the Tesla Supercharger. Until the rest of the industry comes around, fueling stations of the future are destined to have multiple plug types.

Willem-Alexander

Tell Tesla to hand over the Supercharger standard, to a outside independent organization. Of course they won’t and I even bet, you would be against that.

There you go, and the reason why no other auto manufacturer wants to be beholden to Tesla.

CCS is independent, open, and not controlled by any one auto manufacturer.

Willem-Alexander

CHAdeMO is dead. It just does not know it yet.

@Stanford

While VW is being forced to invest more, there isn’t anything stopping Nissan from doing the same.

DonC

It’s always the same story with standards. The smaller the number of players developing the standard the faster and sometimes better it is. The larger the number of players the slower and more coplex the standard. However, industry wide open standards always prevail. Look at memory cards or wireless networks. It’s always the same.

Best guess is that CCS will likely kill everything else off. Tesla is not an open standard and CHAdeMO waited too long to open its standard. Plus CHAdeMO is more a consortium rather than a standards body. The good thing about CCS is that, like J1772, any manufacturer can use it and no manufacturer can block others from using it.

Tony Williams

I would certainly argument exactly opposite… CHAdeMO has a formal Association with scheduled conventions.

CCS only recently formed a consortium to support the fledging CCS, that trails CHAdeMO in every measure that matters… cars and chargers, on EVERY continent.

Micke Larsson

Yet Chademo is dead outside Japan…

Jeff Nisewanger

UPDATE

An Electrify America spokesman says the 50 kW rate of the CHAdeMO cables on their new DC chargers is temporary.

After a compatibility shakedown while being used at 50 kW they will later be restored to their actual underlying certified 100 kW capability. These CHAdeMO cables are not liquid-cooled.

Liquid-cooled CHAdeMO cables and connectors are not quite ready for commercial product use apparently because suppliers have not finished certifying their design.

https://electricrevs.com/2018/04/18/electrify-america-supporting-only-50-kw-chademo/

CDspeed

It’s not biased towards VW, most electric cars on the road will be CCS, it favors the connector most manufacturers will use. Chademo needs to end, charging station manufacturers should not have to add an extra cable just to support Nissan, and Mitsubishi.

Tony Williams

Doesn’t seem odd that the world leaders like Nissan and CHAdeMO would just “give up” to a lesser standard?

Whatever you wish to believe, CHAdeMO does in fact lead in EVERY continent, both with compatible cars, as well as charge stations installed.

EVs sold in Japan won’t have CCS, so BMW will continue to offer CHAdeMO on EVs sold in Japan, as will any other company.

CHAdeMO isn’t going anywhere.

Reaf

VW and the gangs at EA are deliberately limiting the max. output of CHAdeMO to 50kW for the time being. The charging network can and should provide high power charging for CHAdeMO as well.
The Orks will keep shouting ‘death to CHAdeMO !’, as always…

Pushmi-Pullyu

“This certainly feels biased towards Volkswagen and will improve its position over early electric car company Nissan, not something that should be possible through this penitentiary infrastructure project managed by Electrify America.”

Just my opinion, but I don’t see why Volkswagen should be forced to support Nissan’s standard as part of its penalty. So far as I know, the Leaf is the only EV still being sold in the USA which can only be charged at a CHAdeMO station. So far as I know, all other currently produced plug-in EVs can charge at CCS-only chargers (altho Tesla cars will need an adapter.)

I would love to see VW’s Electrify America project be used to promote a true standard for PEV charging, rather than the current situation of competing charging formats.

Reaf

>So far as I know, the Leaf is the only EV still being sold in the USA which can only be charged at a CHAdeMO station.

Totally wrong. Model S, X, Soul EV and Outlander PHEV can all be charged at a CHAdeMO station.

Pat Free

I think they have the right setting. I’m not aware of any EV with a Chademo port enabled for more than 50kW. Plus each time I see a charging demo on Chademo there seams to be a 36kW to 39kW actual limit when charging at supposed 50kW speed. Now CCS has been standardized for EUROPE and for the US, I would expect it to be soon required as standard for all new cars deliveries, including Tesla by the way, sooner or later, as a replacement for currently mandated Type2 cable in Europe that has been totally useless for me so far. What is missing here is still how the enormous amount of existing Teslas will be able to charge at these new stations, using what cable/converter.

Tony Williams

Sorry, but that’s just not going to be the case.

Tony Williams
It’s no surprise that a German auto manufacturer like VW would favor their brand of charger protocol (even though they aren’t supposed to as punishment for diesel-gate). The CHAdeMO Association has been slow to meet market demands, with chargers still officially limited to 100kW / 200 amps. I suspect that they will officially approve an upgrade in the summer (at 400 amps / 1000 volts / 400kW). Part of the problem is there is no car planned to use CHAdeMO at 101 to 400kW, and the other problem is that the CHAdeMO Association actually has formal conventions, unlike their competitors. Tesla and CCS can move much faster for specification changes, with a far smaller number of players for each (Tesla operates theirs alone, and CCS is primarily just non-Tesla US and German auto manufacturers running it). The only other DC fast charging protocol in the world, GB/T, is already 400kW, but relegated to China only (which is too bad, because I think it’s better than CCS) With the Nissan LEAF at 300,000 units sold worldwide, and ongoing sales at almost 10,000 units per month, I think the LEAF will be fine (and so will CHAdeMO). No other EV comes close… Read more »