The Woz No Longer Believes “Anything Elon Musk Or Tesla Says”

Tesla

JAN 30 2018 BY ERIC LOVEDAY 140

Steve Wozniak (aka The Woz) is still a Tesla fan, but only when it comes to the actual product. He can’t trust Tesla or its CEO Elon Musk anymore and he’s now telling us all why.

Wozniak has gone on record stating that he still loves the cars Tesla makes, but he doesn’t trust a word from the automaker or its CEO Elon Musk.

Woz With His Chevrolet Bolt

At the Nordic Business Forum in Stockholm, Wozniak went on a rant, one largely aimed at Tesla. The Woz, a long-time Tesla owner, seems fed up with the undelivered promises coming from Tesla and CEO Musk. Quoting Wozniak:

“Now, I don’t believe anything Elon Musk or Tesla says. But I still love the car.” 

Why the lack of belief? Well, it seems to boil down to promised Autopilot capabilities that still don’t exist today. Woz stated:

“Then they came up with some sensors that Elon Musk said would drive itself across itself the country by the end of 2016.”

“Oh, I had to have that.”

“And then … they got rid of their sensor company and put in new sensors — instead of one camera, eight cameras.”

With these new sensors the promise to “drive itself across the country by the end of 2017” was announced. That still hasn’t happened and Wozniak now seems to believe this self-driving capability will never come. He’s put off by the fact that other automakers have leapfrogged Tesla in regards to autonomous capabilities. One study places Tesla dead last in autonomous-drive.

Musk’s latest statements on self-driving and this cross-country trip indicate it may happen in early 2018. But as recently as December, Musk admitted it probably wouldn’t, so another delay was basically announced.

Quoting Wozniak:

“What he says, can you really believe in him? Is he just a good salesman, like Jobs…”

As for the state of Tesla’s Autopilot capabilities, Wozniak remarked:

“When a Tesla runs into any condition on a highway that is a little unusual — a cone in the middle of a lane — you have to move over. A dumb human or a smart human can easily do it, but the Tesla can’t.”

“Man, you’ve got to be on your toes all the time with it.”

“All Tesla says is, ‘It’s beta, so we’re not responsible — you have to be in control. So that’s kind of a cheap way out of it. Everything I’ve read told me that every other car manufacturer in the world — Audi and BMW — are actually ahead of Tesla for self-driving cars.”

Though he still owns a Tesla, Woz says he Chevy Bolt is his daily driver:

 “…we always drive the Chevy Bolt EV instead of the Tesla, every day.”

Source: Nordic Business

Categories: Tesla

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140 Comments on "The Woz No Longer Believes “Anything Elon Musk Or Tesla Says”"

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“What he says, can you really believe in him? Is he just a good salesman, like Jobs…”

Yep, that’s the right way to talk about the man who made you rich…

Yep, that’s the right way to talk about the man who made you rich…

You could easily say it was Woz who made Steve rich.

Sure, they did really well after they kicked him out in 1985.

They kicked Jobs out because they weren’t doing well but you fail to mention Woz also left Apple in 1985.
Take a step back though.The Apple I computer was Woz’s design. job’s big contribution was the case. BFD. The Apple II was also designed by Woz. Without Woz there would be no Apple. Without Jobs Apple might have been just another footnote in computing history. Bottom line is Woz made Jobs rich but Jobs made Woz richer.

Woz was the brains of apple. Jobs was the marketer.

Woz and Jobs both had egos, but Job’s ego made him very difficult to work with and led to a lot of huge failures early on. Including the financial flops of the original Mac and Lisa computers. These huge failures caused apple yp focus on product lines that had worked in the past.

Neither Jobs nor Musk are infallible. Sometimes Jobs would get obsessed with an idea and push his team to make that idea happen to the detriment of the product. Other times his tunnel vision would pay off and revolutionize an industry.

I think that’s likely the case with anyone like Steve Jobs or Elon Musk. Sometimes they fail, and that’s Ok. Because when they succeed they succeed big time. 😉

Woz got so jerked around by Steve Jobs that I’m just a bit surprised at the criticism of Musk. WOZ must live in a moderate climate since the typical problems with a Tesla only show up in cold climates.

Of course people have died due to the autopilot so I’m not minimizing the point WOZ has made, but if he had lived in a cold climate there would be other things on his mind.

We’re on the same page about the BOLT ev being the daily driver. Here too.

Pleople has not die bc Autopilot, a guy died because his lack of attention to the road and the irresponsible use of autopilot.

“Of course people have died due to the autopilot…”

This comment is more evidence that Bill has joined the ranks of the Tesla haters.

Nobody has died “due to [Tesla’s] autopilot”. Only one person has died in a car which the evidence shows was operating under autopilot, and that was due to illegal driving by one of the drivers involved, and almost certainly distracted driving by the other.

Even if we were to wrongly blame Autopilot for that one death, the many lives which Autopilot has already saved certainly outweighs that one tragedy. Everyone who lives in the real world (that doesn’t include Bill) should agree with that.

Nope, LEGALLY it was the driver’s own fault for being decapitated since LEGALLY you had to pay EXTREME attention to the device every second.

AUTOPILOT (TM) is just a trade-mark of a $5000 device which doesn’t aid the driver at all and can LEGALLY never be relied on in the slightest. I’d sure want to spend $5000 on that ‘Must-Have’ option.

Heaven forbid someone think it is anything like an autopilot.

As proof that the driver is TOTALLY at fault, I drove a Tesla without the $5000 option and still have my head.

Therefore, the driver is totally guilty.

On the other hand – maybe I was one of the few who read every agreement I made with Tesla – and didn’t agree to those deals I never took.

You are the “Tesla Hater” Pushi, since you claimed Musk was selling defective roadsters, when you didn’t know the first thing about the issue, nor what caused the issue in the first place.

Besides long Drivel, you just accused Mr. Musk unfairly of something he had never done, and you’ve never appologized for it.

As far as not “Living in the Real World”, I’m not stuck in Mommy’s Basement all day, thinking PHYSICS is something on a fictional Author’s LUNA, and you are clueless when it comes to force per unit area, something any intelligent 10 year old has learned.

You just CLAIM you understand something (without ever answering ‘reading for meaning’ questions about your so-called understanding, while its obvious any technical subject is far beyond your grasp.

From what I have seen of Woz he is less like Steve, maybe more the engineer type, not the salesman (that was Steve).

I think Tesla had two huge advantages, Autopilot and Supercharging. Now I think they only have one of those two if they don’t capitalize on AP in 2018.

I can’t speak for other markets, but here in New Zealand there are hundreds of high speed charging stations, and you can count Superchargers on one hand. The Supercharger network is cool, but it’s not as though you can’t travel without it. As a potential Tesla buyer, it turns me off completely that it runs on a proprietary standard.

What is a “turn off?” Tesla cars can charge at regular J1772 charging stations. You can buy a CHAdeMO adapter for slow DC fast charging.

What’s to get upset about? That Tesla’s charge port and plug are simple, small and elegant?

No, that Tesla chose to further fragment charging standards because they thought it would be more profitable to do so.

gotta love how simple spider dan is when he has no idea about charging standards. You do know that the Tesla plug came out because at the time there were no charging standards capable of feeding the cars at over 100kWh so they made their own which is much more elegant and easy to use then the charging ports that came AFTER TESLA.

As for the asinine remark about making money off of it. Tesla chargers are generally cheaper and give A LOT more power than most other chargers out their. They also have given their patents on it to anyone that wants to use them.

Spider-Dan said:

“…Tesla chose to further fragment charging standards because they thought it would be more profitable to do so.”

You know perfectly well that’s not true, Spider-Dan. Sorry to see you lower yourself to outright FUD. 🙁

Tesla participated in the coalition for developing CCS, and only withdrew when it became clear the coalition was not going to agree on a standard which would support Tesla’s higher power charging needs for its Model S. Or more precisely, was not going to agree on that standard soon enough for Tesla, as the company needed to put the Model S into production.

It’s not like this hasn’t been pointed out many times, Spider-Dan. Shame on you for intentionally posting FUD. 🙁

I would love to hear your explanation for the charging port on Teslas delivered in Europe, and how Superchargers work in that region.

HAHA! I’m surprised he didn’t take you up on that since its already been decribed in the most general of terms.

Of course if people get confused AND take offense by “URBAN” superchargers, I suppose your request has been deemed by him much too difficult (for him).

But then this is the guy who knows everything about everything EXCEPT when it comes to vacuum since then he gets his info from fictional LUNA authors.

That’s the problem with getting just the slightest bit into the details – its too revealing.

The Woz created the original Apple computer and made Apple possible so I think he has the right to say what he wants about Jobs.

Yea , He can say whatever he wants about Jobs ,Because Jobs is Not Alive & Here to defend himself…Yea Gotta believe WOZ now. Really Easy Now!.BUT.,I Don’t Buy It !

You don’t have to buy it, you just have to respect THE WOZ!

He’s fixating on one issue, AutoPilot. The car has vastly more attributes.
Maybe it’s time to move out of 8bit world. The world is bigger.
Just kidding.

While I am a big Tesla fan and someone who believes the Woz knows what to say to keep himself in the spotlight, I do have to admit that if we don’t see some big jump on the AP front from Tesla very soon that things will go south quick. EM keeps promising, but how long has it been since we saw those first FSD teaser videos? What have we seen since?

C’mon Elon, it’s time to reclaim the title.

I for one enjoyed the fully autonomous Tesla demo ride from CA to NYC in late 2017. Did all of you miss it?

The Model3 with 100-200k deliveries in 2017 (as Elon Musk projected) was also great.

That’s 2 out of 2 promises kept. Go Elon!

(Sarcasm alert)

Ouch! Promise much beyond your next mortgage or rent payment, much?!
???

You’ve left out a number of other misses and misrepresentations from EM but he has also delivered on a number of Implausibles. In general he has been very accurate on the specs delivered but horrible at delivering on time. Large Powerpack deliveries are an exception.

I am most impressed by the rapid and wide-scale rollout of the battery-swap stations that were not-at-all an attempt to game the CARB credit system.

No, you don’t say. It’s not like every other automaker on Earth “games” the system. Is there something wrong with that? Or does is Tesla the only one who can’t “game the system?”

Tesla is the only one that created a sham battery swap system that they immediately cancelled when the battery swap credits went away.

And what was the benefit of gaming the system to generate extra ZEV credits, when Tesla only sells BEVs anyway? Solely to create more profit by generate more ZEV credits to sell to ICE automakers. Remember, Elon is in this to Save The Earth™, not simply to extract money like those other soulless corporate raiders.

So in summary: when traditional automakers like FCA offer the bare minimum in compliance EVs so they can continue selling profitable ICE cars, they are morally bankrupt scumbags who are destroying the planet. But when Tesla games the ZEV credit system solely to make more profit selling ZEV credits to companies like FCA, well, Tesla is just making savvy business decisions! They aren’t an amoral profit engine like the rest of them!

How has Tesla NOT used every penny it can get its hands on to electrify transportation?

Take away all that ZEV money and Tesla is in much worse shape. As it is there are plenty of legitimate concerns about cash flow.

The end result of increased ZEV credits for a battery swap system was:

1) A tiny handful of cars participated at the lone battery swap station
2) Tesla made lots of money selling extra ZEV credits to automakers who aren’t sufficiently investing in EVs
3) Those automakers got to sell more ICEs

That was hardly the intended outcome of the program. And if you want to say that Tesla did what it had to do to make money, fine! That’s what corporations do. But then don’t tell me that Tesla is doing this to save the planet. Tesla is happy to enable other automakers to sell more ICEs if it means that Tesla gets more money for selling ZEV credits.

I’m just tired of people acting like Tesla is some holy warrior that is above the fray. They are just another corporation that is trying to make money, and they believe that the image of being environmentally conscious helps them make the most money.

Oh, and to answer your question: I’m pretty sure that bailing out a failing solar panel company (with no particularly attractive IP) didn’t help electrify transportation. It sure did protect the investments of Elon and his family, though.

Spider-Dan said:

“I am most impressed by the rapid and wide-scale rollout of the battery-swap stations…”

I guess that you too must have invested in TSLA short-selling, because your sudden turn from merely occasionally bashing Tesla to hardcore dishonest anti-Tesla FUD certainly suggests a motive stronger than merely expressing honest opinions.

As I recall, Tesla never gave any indication that battery swapping was anything more than a test program for them. But hey, if you can find a quote from Elon or any other Tesla spokesman who claimed a “rapid and wide-scale rollout” for battery swap stations, do post it here. 🙄

Finally, the “TSLA shorter!” accusations make their way to me. One might think that you have a position of your own in TSLA stock, which is why you are an uncritical apologist for them on nearly every topic. I see your approach on this particular subject is to toss Elon’s usual braggadocio down the memory hole. Let me provide a refresher course: The automaker will roll out the battery-swapping stations later this year, beginning along the heavily-traveled route between Los Angeles and San Francisco and then in the Washington-to-Boston corridor. […] The stations will cost about a half a million dollars each to build. They will be located alongside Tesla’s fast-charging stations, which take around 30 minutes to charge the car’s battery. Musk told Reuters earlier this week that the battery-replacement network would entail an investment of $50 million to $100 million. $50M-$100M investment / $500k per station = 100-200 battery swap stations. This is slightly more than the number of swap stations Tesla actually ended up building, which was… 1. And remarkably, one is exactly the minimum number of swap stations Tesla needed to build to collect ZEV credits for every “swap-capable” Model S on the road. A coincidence,… Read more »

Dan you never have anything nice to say about Tesla, you pull stuff out of your butt sometimes to make them look bad and now you’re surprised someone hasn’t called you a shorter before. The only reason people would come to a thread to disparage a car that they don’t have or don’t intend to get is because they are either pathologic or are trying to spread as much fudd as possible hoping they don’t lose too much on the short they put in.

“The only reason people would come to a thread to disparage a car that they don’t have or don’t intend to get is because they are either pathologic or are trying to spread as much fudd as possible hoping they don’t lose too much on the short they put in.”

I guess this means there are a lot of Tesla supporters who are shorting Nissan and GM, then! In fact, it sounds like you’re saying that everyone who has ever bashed Toyota for their FCV plans – when they would never buy an FCV themselves – was actually just trying to manipulate Toyota’s stock price.

It’s absurd that many of the same people who have nothing but bad things to say about GM, Nissan, Toyota, or basically any non-Tesla automaker suddenly discover that when it comes to Tesla, criticism is now an indicator of personal stock positions… yet the idea that some on here might be shilling for Tesla because they are long in TSLA stock somehow never seems to come up.

Dan you are once again clueless as there was no gaming the carb credit system as Elon has said it is rigged and would like to do away with it as he can only get pennies on the dollar for it so nice try. As for the swapping station Tesla was once again an innovator trying to get charge times down to gas refill times but fudds like you try and berate them for that. The good thing is they saw that they were not needed as ranges increased, most people charged at home and the supercharging stations continued to be built for the few times you needed to go somewhere.

Again, it is an amazing coincidence that Tesla saw that battery swaps are not needed at exactly the same moment that CARB decided that Tesla would no longer get extra ZEV credits for their battery swap “network”.

tftf continued his serial anti-Tesla FUD campaign:

“That’s 2 out of 2 promises kept. Go Elon!”

Tesla keeps failing to, well, fail… as you keep promising, day after day, week after week, year after year. That’s zero out of, what, 5000 or 10,000 Tesla bashing posts from you? Well, at least you’re consistent: “Batting 1000”, as they say!

😆 😆 😆

It is the one area where I think Tesla has fallen behind. There is no indication that they have made progress on full self driving.

That said, this doesn’t mean I can’t believe anything Musk said.

The Woz is exaggerating on that significantly. I just think Tesla made some bad bets on the autonomous front and they aren’t paying off.

+1

If you don’t know me by now……
What surprises me is that he believes that report from Navigant. Tesla’s lack of communication as to where they are, isn’t helping the situation, so I can understand the frustration.

I’ve been at this point for a while now, not believing a word they say but still liking the product. But it is much more than just AP that Tesla promises but doesn’t deliver. And in many cases it has become clear that it isn’t just a matter of being too optimistic, but of willful deception.

Me too—but that’s rather obvious to anyone, I suppose. Glad to see the world is finally taking notice.

Six Pretend Electrics said:

“…that’s rather obvious to anyone…”

What’s “rather obvious” is that Tesla’s stock price is recently up, WAY up, which explains why there are no less than (at the time I write this) 7 serial Tesla bashers making multiple Tesla Hater cultist posts in this one discussion thread alone.

Tesla Hater cultists who are very very upset at how well Tesla is succeeding and how much money they’re losing by shorting TSLA stock. Losers!

Go Tesla!

That’s COMPLETE bs and you know it! Willful deception is FRAUD! You REALLY want to try and prove that one?! Musk is late, because he wants a ‘go anywhere’ system, which is likely going to take more time than the ‘area’ based systems others are touting.

As a result of that, coupled with the lack of progress updates, is making the patient types antsy and the ‘I wanted it yesterday’ types, ready to burn Musk in effigy.

floyd it is more like give the shorters like six a little fudd ammunition as most understand that when you are pushing the boundaries that sometime they will take a little longer than anticipated.

Ouch. Although, to be fair, there are probably a lot of GM owners who say the same thing about GM.

I think that autonomous driving has been hugely over-sold, but it still may come. Getting to a reliable level 5 will take much more effort than people realize. #realitycheck

Yup, like this GM owner who hate the company, but love the EV.

GM has historically under-promised and over-delivered on their plug-ins.

Historical? You mean recently, because historically they crunch the EVs they made a while ago.

They crunched EVs one time and now a subset of EV enthusiasts are deterimined to carry a torch for those crushed EVs for the rest of their lives.

Exactly, and the EVs they crunched were sort of useless, 2 seat tiny EV is not what many buyers are after. It is ridiculous how fired up people get over the EV1, no one outside of an EV diehard even cares about that thing.

They weren’t useless. Even the early versions could meet over 80% of the transportation needs of a typical American drive cycle.

Perhaps the biggest contribution of the EV1 was to serve as a proof of concept for Tesla as noted by JBStraubel.

GM’s most absurd claim about the EV1 was that there simply was no demand for them. GM never built an EV1 that didn’t have at least a thousand interested buyers.

I think the biggest contribution of the EV1 was all the engineering/knowledge that made it into the Gen1 Volt, Gen2 Volt, and now the Bolt EV.

Kdawg said:

“I think the biggest contribution of the EV1 was all the engineering/knowledge that made it into the Gen1 Volt, Gen2 Volt, and now the Bolt EV.”

Indeed. (Not to mention that the Impact prototype for the EV1 lead to AC Propulsion’s tZero, which served as the prototype for the Tesla Roadster.)

Those who claim the EV1 was a practical car, or that it had any market appeal outside a tiny niche of hardcore EV enthusiasts, or that the average driver would have put up with the “daily drama” of hoping they had enough range to make it home without the car going into “turtle mode”, or that those huge and relatively primitive battery packs actually were adequate for everyday use, or that GM could ever have sold the car at a profit…

Well, those are people who have swallowed all the propaganda in “Who Killed the Electric Car?” and are ignoring reality very firmly indeed.

The statement “GM never built an EV1 that didn’t have at least a thousand interested buyers” basically proves that GM was right. It’s the auto sales equivalent of, “There are dozens of us. Dozens!”

I’m not sure if you are deficient in your knowledge of history or your ability in mathematics. GM built and leased over a thousand. Use a calculator and you can then you to can laugh at your statement.

The reality is there was unprecedented demand for the product. If GM had said they couldn’t make money in the vehicle that would be one thing….but to instead claim that there was inadequate demand was laughably absurd.

Sorry, I thought you were saying that there were less than 2000 people total interested in buying an EV1 (i.e. 1000 remaining people interested in buying the final EV1 to roll off the assembly line), which is a plausible yet thoroughly unimpressive number.

Instead, you seem to be saying that over a million people wanted to buy an EV1, which is comically delusional. There have been ~770k U.S. sales of all EVs combined over the last seven years – EVs of widely varying form factors, with relatively robust charging infrastructure – and you’re claiming that in a 3-year span, over a million people wanted to buy a 2-door 2-seat coupe with sub-175-mile range and virtually no charging infrastructure. That’s ridiculous.

Why don’t these supposed million interested buyers already have a Volt, Leaf, or Bolt? The myth of the legions of people frothing at the mouth to buy an EV1 has already been thoroughly disproven by subsequent reality, when vastly more advanced and superior EVs were released yet struggled to reach 30k sales in a full year.

“Even the early versions could meet over 80% of the transportation needs of a typical American drive cycle.”

A toilet that meets 95% of your needs means you need another toilet.

Well, you gotta admit that kdawg did use the word “historically.” That sorta applies to the EV1 debacle, right? How were we supposed to know that “historically” meant only five years history?

Oops. Should have been the post below. (When will this site get comments that can be edited?)

Historically over the last decade that they have been providing EVs.

I agree they have over delivered on specs and vehicle quality, but i would say they have under delivered on design.

Both the Volt and Bolt concept vehicles were much better looking than the production versions.

The concept Volt was ghastly. I’m not sure what the difference is between the production Bolt and the concept.

“The concept car looked better” describes approximately 100% of cars that have had a preceding concept vehicle.

Well, you gotta admit that kdawg did use the word “historically.” That sorta applies to the EV1 debacle, right? How were we supposed to know that “historically” meant only five years history?

Regardless of their fate, the EV-1 was under promised and over delivered, so I’m not sure what your issue is? That EV performed better than any other on the market at that time. The fact that people didn’t get to keep them is irrelevant.

its fine that they didnt get to keep them but that was not a straightforward deal no matter how you slice it. I couldnt care less and I can see that.

Kdawg said:

“GM has historically under-promised and over-delivered on their plug-ins.”

Only if “historically” ignores everything that happened before 2014.

Some of us have not forgotten that GM said the 2011 Volt would have “up to” 50 miles of EV range, before it was rated at 35 miles by the EPA. Or that it would be a pure serial hybrid.

Nor have we forgotten this bit of ridiculous GM advertising propaganda:

https://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/chevy-volt-gm-230-mpg-photo01.jpg

Propaganda? I got 50% better MPG than that over the 3 years I had my previous Gen1 Volt.

https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/2834#achievementTab

Of course, you might object that “MPG” doesn’t include electricity usage, to which I would respond, “That’s why the MPGe stat exists.” But as far as rating how much gasoline will be consumed by a typical driver, GM’s MPG estimate in that image is completely fair and reasonable.

I don’t think GM has ever had the cult following Musk does.

I criticized him on twitter in response to one of his posts and a bunch of illiterate (and shockingly self-assured) idiots swarmed like I was threatening their hive.

Are you kidding? GM has huge cults of Corvette fans, or Pickup Truck enthusiasts, or Camaro fans.

“I think that autonomous driving has been hugely over-sold, but it still may come.”

Bingo!

While I desperately want to see level 5 autonomous vehicles, I have no hope that we’ll see anything like that on unmodified, unrestricted public roads for a long time.

Again, the more you know about software the less optimistic you’ll be about the near-term future of autonomous vehicles and their ability to handle surprises like accidents, EMS vehicles, bad weather and road conditions, idiots driving like, well, idiots, etc.

I think the best we can hope for within the next 5 to 10 years is mixed mode autonomous vehicles. You get in your car, drive to a local expressway, enter a special lane for autonomous vehicles, and let your car take over until you reach your exit. And even then, you might be restricted to using AP only in near-ideal ambient conditions.

As a fellow computer programmer I share your strong doubts about self-driving cars being able to handle all driving situations, at the same time I think you’re seriously understating the capability that Tesla Autopilot + AutoSteer is already showing. That system will already handle most driving on freeways, altho human control is still needed to deal with unusual situations such as obstructions in the roadway, detours, construction zones, and reacting to dangerous or reckless driving by other drivers.

I don’t think we’ll get self-driving cars which operate reliably in nearly all situations until they’re equipped with LiDAR-based SLAM* systems.

*SLAM stands for Simultaneous Localization And Mapping technology, a process whereby a robot or a device can create a map of its surroundings, and orient itself properly within this map in real time.

Yeah. As a computer programmer, I have been very skeptical of Elon’s predictions that we would get fully self-driving cars by 2019.

Here’s my prediction: Ain’t gonna happen. We might see test vehicles achieve overall Level 4 autonomy (altho likely with limited functionality in certain respects) within 5 years, but I will be very surprised if we see any mass produced cars with that degree of self-driving functionality that soon. And I wouldn’t put any money on Tesla being the first company to achieve that, either.

In fact, I think Tesla would be far better off by ending its efforts to produce its own self-driving technology, and simply license that from a company better equipped to develop that. (Heresy in a Tesla fan, I know!)

I hope Apple will produce sensors suites and self-driving hardware and software, to be installed in various auto makers’ cars. Apple has very deep pockets, and a depth and breath of software engineers which Tesla can’t possibly match. Apple also uses the same approach Tesla does for seamlessly integrating software and hardware, so that should be a good match to Tesla’s designs.

The Tesla autopilot is not perfect so we use the Bolt instead?

Last time I checked, the Bolt has no autopilot. Don’t like the Tesla autopilot? Don’t use it.

It goes beyond just autopilot. For example, no towing on Tesla 3 which he indicated it will have towing (or maybe upgrade option?).

As always, one should do research to find out what it’s all about instead of blindly following the cult leader, which is what I think was Woz message.

I suspect he uses the Bolt because it is a lot easier to get in and out of (much higher seating position), and is much easier to park.

+1

@Jim_NJ, Chevy Bolt is easier to get in and out for obese person like this out of touch old man.

This obese man is out of touch since mid 1980’s, he didn’t contribute a single thing to society for more than 30 years, he and his family live on Apple payment for his contribution to the Apple 1.

Your jealousy of The Woz is understandable.

Your willingness to make it so obvious and so public, is not.

I think the Bolt is just more functional for their needs and that is why they use the Bolt more then the Tesla.

They may also be leasing the Bolt. If so, then they are paying for a set amount of miles. So why not use them?

That’s not what he said. He said he is disappointed in the failure of Tesla to improve the autopilot he has. He also says he still likes the car and hasn’t sold it. He further states that the Bolt is more their daily driver but does not give a reason why. My guess is, it suits their daily needs better than a Model S, or Model X does.

Smaller is often better and the range more than covers most people’s needs.

And AP takes two steps, 1) driver assistance, 2) autonomous driving
Driver assistance seems to work reasonably well and has even earned reputation with various bodies that it makes driving safer.
Autonomous driving is not available, will most likely be many years away, why would you pay for that when you know it is a risk? Then don’t complain because it hasn’t happened yet! If/when I buy a Tesla, I’ll get the driver assistance package, but I’m not going to pay for the autonomous part unless it is actually ready to use. Rich people paying for the future potential is fair enough so long as they realise they might never get it.

Jason said:

“…don’t complain because it hasn’t happened yet! If/when I buy a Tesla, I’ll get the driver assistance package, but I’m not going to pay for the autonomous part unless it is actually ready to use.”

While I personally agree, because I always thought that Elon’s predictions for fully functional self-driving “within two years” (and by now that was probably a year ago, or perhaps more) were much too optimistic — at the same time I do think there is a legitimate complaint from those who actually paid for the FSD (Full Self-Drive) option for their Tesla car, only to see that functionality delayed indefinitely.

Let’s be honest here: Elon and Tesla have overpromised on full self-driving capability, and they have overpromised more than just a bit. I really don’t think that was Elon being dishonest; I think that was Elon failing to understand the true difficulty of the problem. Elon’s history is one of being able to accomplish things people kept telling him were impossible or at least highly unlikely, and I think that he has overgeneralized that lesson too much.

Dr. Miguelito Loveless

“Is he just a good salesman, like Jobs…”

*Ouch*

I don’t believe Elon Musk is a slick salesman. Not all his predictions have come true in a timely manner, however most of them have come true. It’s like Muhammad Ali saying he will knock his opponent out in the third round, but Muhammad Ali didn’t knock him out until the 5th round. Sure he didn’t do it when he said he would do it, but you have to give him some credit for doing it. I don’t believe Tesla vehicles can achieve level 4 or 5 autonomous driving without additional upgrades to their Hardware and software. I don’t think anyone should be using autopilot at this stage. There will be a lot more accidents, but it will always be the fault of the driver because of that little disclaimer, “the driver has to be in control at all times.” Some of the engineers at Tesla may not believe level 4 or level 5 can be achieved with the current hardware and software on their vehicles because they are so far behind other software companies, but originally I think they did. That don’t make them Liars. A liar is someone who intentionally and knowingly sets out to deceive you by… Read more »

On the one hand there is Elon Musk with his habit of writing checks with his mouth that his engineers just can’t cash. On the other hand there is GM writing checks the Woz can cash…

At least, I don’t suppose Wozniak actually paid for his Bolt considering his side business of commercial product endorsement involving a long list of companies.

I pretty much agree with Mr. Wozniak’s assessment, but my bigger question is- who cares what the Woz has to say on the matter? As far as I can tell, he is someone who was part of something great a long time ago and hasn’t done much since. Basically living off past glories. I’m not sure why his opinion is supposed to have anymore weight than anybody else commenting here?

If I had a fraction of Woz’s Money ,I wouldn’t be out there Busting My Butt Like Musk is doing .Even though Musk achieved what most couldn’t even dream of, Only to be criticized on top of it all.

There was a French singer who died recently with a song called “Jouer du piano debout” (Playing piano standing).
One of the best part of it is “And for that strange reason, people who hold to their dreams that bother us?”
Elon Musk is not only “the best salesman in the world”, as Bob Lutz used to say, he is also the biggest dreamer and who works the most to make his dreams becomes true:
Reality is hard, but the resolution of the man is even harder.
At the end, he is one who will laugh and we are the ones who will be able to have a better, brighter and compelling life throw his companies products or achievements, and throw all the things that other companies are doing or will do to try to catch up or beat his products. Emulation is the source of biggest progress in human history, but the men who make possible are always the target of this human nature weakness called “envy”.

Yeah, I have to wonder if part of what’s motivating The Woz’s criticisms of Elon is the jealousy of someone whose glory has faded towards someone whose star is still rising.

Perhaps he should watch the movie “Amadeus” (1984).

@Dav8or, “Basically living off past glories.”
I agree with you 100%. This is my last post about this obese old man. This obese old man makes me sick when I saw his name anywhere.

I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but Woz is not exactly the leanest so maybe entering a car is more difficult for him… also there would be no bolt without Tesla, not because I’m some cult follower, but because gm prefers the fossils.

Although that means he apparently has no problem with the supposedly “skinny” seats in the Bolt that so many complain about.

I have no interest in AutoPilot, but I also believe *no* company is going to achieve Level 4 or 5 any time soon.

As for Mr Musk, his extravagant talk will eventually turn people away. People who are upgrading to a Model 3 from a Camry want to trust their car mfr can support and service their purchase, seamlessly. Yes, Tesla gets good service marks from True Believers, but supporting 500k+ vehicles is going to be a challenge.

Model 3 is not aimed at Camry buyers; it’s aimed at and priced to compete with the smaller cars from Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc.

And the truth is it has gotten their attention.

Worse then, those loyal car buyers would want the same service they get from thier dealer and dont see that happening since you cant the car in some states

If Waymo’s Pacifica vans driving around Phoenix without anyone in the driver’s seat aren’t Level 4/5, what are they?

The suit of sensors needed for doing this in relatively controlled cities areas are not cheap and are all but aesthetic in a personal car, but it’s ok for a fleet company propriety.
So the same as put it in a regular car and push the software to be able to do the same every where you want to go with your personal car. The goals are not the same, it’s like saying that the English Channel traverse by Louis Bleriot in 1909 was the same that Charles Lindbergh feat in 1927 because both Atlantic Ocean and English Channel are “seas”…

Driving on a very limited selection of streets in a single location is not level 4 let alone 5. That particular location was chosen because the streets are so uniform and the chance of encountering something unexpected is extremely slight. They absolutely could not do the same elsewhere.

There is a reason that most groups trying to develop an L4 or L5 are talking about things like restricted roads (only certain vehicles, with radio transmitters to talk to each other), bicyclists forced to carry sensors that the auto-cars can see, and massive road infrastructure improvements including consistent lane markers and walled off sides to prevent entrance by animals and people. We are no where near technology that can deal with something it hasn’t been trained in detail to expect, which is common in normal driving anywhere.

Doggydogworld said:

“If Waymo’s Pacifica vans driving around Phoenix without anyone in the driver’s seat aren’t Level 4/5, what are they?”

The problem is that supporters or fans of a certain company point to the greatest achievements by semi-autonomous cars, while it seems that those who actually analyze the capability of such cars look more at their limitations.

For example:

Level 4 _ High Automation

System capability: The car can operate without human input or oversight but only under select conditions defined by factors such as road type or geographic area. • Driver involvement: In a shared car restricted to a defined area, there may not be any. But in a privately owned Level 4 car, the driver might manage all driving duties on surface streets then become a passenger as the car enters a highway. • Example: Google’s now-defunct Firefly pod-car prototype, which had neither pedals nor a steering wheel and was restricted to a top speed of 25 mph.

I think most people would consider a self-driving car limited to 25 MPH to be rather less than fully functional.

source:
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/path-to-autonomy-self-driving-car-levels-0-to-5-explained-feature

While it’s not untrue that Musk has said a lot of things that haven’t come true, or were partly true at one time:
“Drive Free on Sunlight Forever,” and now are not true anymore.
It’s more of just his manner of speaking.
It’s like promising someone the Moon, and then taking them out one night pointing to it, and saying, “see, there it is, it’s all yours.”

Anyway Woz may be projecting a bit also.
Musk lies just Steve Jobs did. Not really.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

I think most people don’t care what the CEO says but care mostly about the product.

CEO’s need to talk up the company, that’s their job. I don’t know any who talks down about their company, this is just business as usual.
Where’s the news?

He probably drives the Bolt due to the fact that the S and X are huge gigantic boats however sexy some think they are and a smaller Bolt is simply more practical to drive and park in a city…

One of Musks biggest problems with over promising and under delivering is that one of his greatest strengths is also is also a greatest weakness… That being his hard core nerd control freak self who wants to design everything them selves from the ground up instead of turning to third parties…

Musk would sometimes be wise to KISS and realize that perfection can be the enemy of good enough…

And NO I am not a Tesla shorter…

Another Euro point of view

Elon does what needs to be done considering he is the CEO of a silicon start up. Lying a lot is part of his job and should he not lie he would be a bad silicon valley CEO. And lie he does a lot, worse to me (being in accountant) is his gross margin comparison with the rest of the car industry, failing to mention that by leaving out a fair chung of expenses (R&D and part SGA) out of his calculation he is comparing orange & apples. But then again, beng a CEO of a start up is role his also to manipulate the stock price.

No, the problem does not lie with Musk but with the fact that a bunch of idiotic/juvenile fanbois do actually believe all what he says. It is problematic because the king (Must) knew that he is naked but by being surrounded by so many fans he may one day think he is wearing beautiful clothes. And that may prove dangerous in case it actually happens. I believe however he is too clever for that to happen.

@Another Euro point of view, “being a CEO of a start up is role his also to manipulate the stock price.”

You are 100% WRONG with this claim. If you make a claim that Elon Musk ever manipulated Tesla stock price you must have EVIDENCE, where are they ?

Elon Musk went on record many times saying that “Tesla stock was higher than we have any right to deserve”

Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FVbyyDLzvg

42:57 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3lzEQANdHk&t=23s

2:16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBr1x8hhM2g&t=207s

HN:

You are one of these “idiotic/juvenile fanbois” he is talking about. Yes, indeed, blame it on fanboy worshipers that Tesla got addicted to easy money that doesn’t need to be counted. Who cares, these idiot fanboys will bring more billions on next share sale after dog & pony show.

This leads to wrong business decisions and wrong company culture, and inability to survive in economic downturns with ever increasing billions in debt when your access to capital markets is effectively shut down.

@zzzzzzzzzz

Didn’t you watch some of the linked YouTube videos ? Did I post any fake news ? Naysayers like you can’t take the true facts.

Only the most insane would believe that Elon Musk pumps Tesla stock.

Another Euro Tesla Basher said:

“Lying a lot is part of his job…”

You seem to be rather intimately familiar with lying. Much, much moreso than Elon is.

You calling Elon a liar isn’t the pot calling the kettle black; it’s the mountain complaining that the molehill is too tall.

I can understand that things take longer than expected by Tesla. I can understand that things don’t work out of the box as expected by customers and Tesla.
What I don’t understand is how you can promise something and then take it back, just saying “No” as it happened with the tow hitch for Model 3, which made me turn away from buying a Tesla. I would have waited two years to get a Model 3 with tow hitch. Now it’s gonna be an e-Golf.
If money walking out of the door does not convince them …

You sure do like to harp on the issue of a TM3 trailer hitch, don’t you?

I don’t know anybody who considers a single tweet from a company exec to be a “promise” from that company. Looks like it’s just you, dude.

Get over it, already. Either plan to buy and install a 3rd party trailer hitch, or wait for the Model Y, or just buy a different car. Life is too short to let little things like this stop you from moving on.

“He’s put off by the fact that other automakers have leapfrogged Tesla in regards to autonomous capabilities. One study places Tesla dead last in autonomous-drive.”

Huh? I don’t know of any car on the market that has a better semi-self-driving system than Tesla’s. Please educate me.

GM’s SuperCruise doesn’t beat it, and neither does Nissan’s ProPilot Assist. So how can Navigant say Tesla is in last place when none of its competitors currently have a better system?

I should also note that SuperCruise isn’t even available on Cadillac’s one remaining plug-in (CT6 PHEV).

Thank you for posting the same link that was in the story. Duh. Now explain to me how Tesla is at the bottom when it has the most sophisticated self-driving system of all cars currently on the market? That study states GM is near or at the top, and yet its SuperCruise can’t hold a candle to Tesla’s AutoPilot.

The so-called “study” referred to, compared other companies’ test cars to Tesla’s production cars.

That was either a case of utter cluelessness or, more likely, a case of a company hiring Navigant to produce a fake “study” showing their cars were more advanced than Tesla’s.

“itself across itself the” should be “itself across the”

“says he Chevy Bolt” should be “says his Chevy Bolt” or “says the Chevy Bolt”

Clearly he must be shorting TSLA…

That is a little tough. If there was no WOZ at apple Jobs would have had difficulty coming up with a product that the public would like.

Jobs might have been aggressive enough to be a marketer some place else, but as it was everything clicked for him initially because of WOZ’s hard work.

If Woz wants to relax a bit, I can’t criticize that.

I don’t think Woz is putting MUSK in as low a category as Jobs – because Jobs was a royal prick.

M3 - reserved -- Niro/Leaf 2.0/Outlander - TBD

Sat in the Model 3 for quite awhile yesterday–nearly 30minutes!

Have had opportunity for testing the Leaf and Bolt recently too along with the Niro PHEV.

Still getting the Model 3 for our FUN car. The back does have a struggle to get in/out with the weird leg entryway. While the leaf rear entryway is awkward for the head clearance (coming from a small 5’6″ guy).

Niro is probably going to be our daily hauler (PHEV vs upcoming EV) as the Swiss knife. Bolt would have won if they simply extended the darn thing 9″ for a reasonable trunk.

M3 - reserved -- Niro/Leaf 2.0/Outlander - TBD

Forgot to mention:

Leaf ProPilot – beats M3 single lane — don’t trust M3 to change lanes for me anyways.

Niro ACC – works perfectly fine and has lane assist alert — Standard.

Bolt – ?ACC nah 🙁

–wanting autopark for everyone!

It’s good to see Woz has come out of his shell. I knew who he was when I bought my Apple][, but then he basically disappeared (seclusion) and now suddenly he is vocal again, good for him. Makes not much difference to what I think, though. Each thing is evaluated on its merit, Tesla looks pretty good to me compared to the other Auto companies.

@Jason, but then he basically disappeared (seclusion)”

The reason was he didn’t any other idea about anything else.

He didn’t even know that obese isn’t good for one health.

You’re so jealous of The Woz that your eyes must be green by now.

The strangest thing is that it tool a grown man like Woz, with a decent IQ, so many years to realize that Elon lies through his teeth 🙂 Shorts realized that many years ago.

You mean, TSLA stock shorters actually believe their own lies?

Nah, I don’t think they’re that stupid. Well, at least not most of ’em. But if you want to claim you are a useful idiot who actually believes their lies, it won’t take much to convince me.

I am a long time Tesla fan, but…
Every time I read about a Tesla smashing into a semi trailer, fire truck, telephone pole, it proves to me that the automatic detection and braking doesn’t work (this is standard, not auto pilot). I blame Tesla’s over-reliance on radar and lack of binocular vision with cameras. If they used twin cameras forward and matched images for edge detection they could triangulate and determine distance. Very difficult to determine distance with one eye. Some have pointed out to me that the M3 has 3 forward facing cameras, but according to Tesla website they are wide-angle, normal, and narrow (long distance) and not used as binocular vision. Many criticize Tesla for not using the very expensive LIDAR system to range detect objects, yes this is a viable alternative, I just think binocular vision is a much cheaper and in some ways better option.

“Every time I read about a Tesla smashing into a semi trailer, fire truck, telephone pole, it proves to me that the automatic detection and braking doesn’t work (this is standard, not auto pilot).” Automatic Braking Systems (ABS) don’t reliably work on cars made by any auto maker. Why single out Tesla? I’ll tell you why: Because you expect more from Tesla. While that may be a good testament to Tesla’s advertising, reality doesn’t work that way. The limited function Dopplar radars installed in cars, used as sensors for ABS, don’t become more functional just because they’re installed in Tesla cars. “I blame Tesla’s over-reliance on radar and lack of binocular vision with cameras. If they used twin cameras forward and matched images for edge detection they could triangulate and determine distance.” The ability of software to pick objects out of camera images, and identify them, isn’t very reliable, even with stereo cameras. It also takes a lot of computer processing power to try to identify objects, which means it works rather slowly as compared to most computerized functions. These limitations are well known in the robotics industry, and if Tesla thinks they can overcome this problem… well, I think… Read more »

I don’t entirely disagree with Woz on this. Tesla has not delivered on its AP promises. Some of this may be outside of their control, but Tesla still has a problem with over-promising and underdelivering, both on timetables and on products. All of that being said, they still IMO have the best products in the EV space right now and for the time being, their supercharger network gives them a leg up on the competition.

I think they do have a lot to be worried about with other manufacturers coming into the space and I think that other’s will quickly reach or surpass them in self driving functionality.

I’m still going to buy a Tesla when my model 3 number comes up. Probably will get a base model (maybe larger battery) but won’t be coughing up the $5K for AP though.

Look I’m no Tesla Fan boy My daily driver is a 2017 Volt Premiere but even I would rather drive a Tesla than a Bolt. The Bolt doesn’t even offer basic Adaptive Cruise Control. Woz can knock Musk’s empty promises all he wants but I rather slug around a Tesla with adaptive cruise control than drive the clown car bolt that doesn’t have it in regular California dense traffic.

Oh, so Elon reminds you too much of Steve Jobs and you’re having an emotional re-lapse, interesting. Uh, is anyone else driving across the country autonomously? Maybe I missed that. LIDAR is LAMEDAR.

“Wozniak now seems to believe this self-driving capability will never come. He’s put off by the fact that other automakers have leapfrogged Tesla in regards to autonomous capabilities.” Well, “never” is a long time, so that seems rather foolish… or more likely, seems as if The Woz is now shorting TSLA stock and has unfortunately jumped on the Tesla Hater cult bandwagon. 🙁 Tesla losing its deal with Mobileye certainly has, as the Brits say, put them on their back foot. It does look as though Tesla made a mistake in trying to reproduce the functionality of Mobileye instead of just licensing similar tech from another vendor or — better yet — moving to better tech by incorporating the new, much lower-cost solid state LiDAR scanners, instead of stubbornly sticking to unreliable camera image processing coupled with limited-function Doppler radar. I hope Tesla changes its policy of resisting use of LiDAR, because if it doesn’t, it’s soon going to be left far behind in the race toward true autonomous driving. “One study places Tesla dead last in autonomous-drive. Oh, please. That clueless (or perhaps intentionally fake) study compared other companies’ test cars to Tesla’s production cars! We don’t know what… Read more »

Here is the exact moment in time where Woz jumped the shark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NGfoWvsVoM

I really can’t take a cheesy mattress salesman seriously.

To Nix, Woz must be eating himself to death for having to succumb to becoming a bottom feeder shill of Chinese mattresses

WOZ looks skinnier to me now than when he was a kid.

No one would have accused him of being skinny then either.

He has “big time” shares in…..EGUANA TECNOLOGIES….

He has “big time” shares in…..EGUANA TECNOLOGIES….