Will Non-Tesla EV Owners Struggle Without A Supercharger Network?

FEB 18 2019 BY STEVEN LOVEDAY 159

Is Tesla’s fast-charging network an absolute necessity for EV owners?

It seems whenever we share information about a new electric vehicle, there are many naysayers that refuse to give it any credit if it doesn’t bring with it its own fast-charging network. Basically, this means every EV that’s not a Tesla. However, just because an automaker doesn’t build out its own charging network doesn’t mean the car itself is a lemon. This is especially true when considering that most EV owners charge at home, and many live in areas where other fast-charging networks are available and growing.

We are finally just entering into a turning point in which public electric vehicle charging is becoming more necessary and viable. Not long ago, it didn’t really make sense for any company to invest in the technology, since there were very few EVs on the road, and most were situated in specific areas. So, if a manufacturer didn’t build out its own network, owners were at a loss. In the near future, we’ll see exponential growth in charging infrastructure, most of which will not be implemented by automakers, at least not directly.

So, what if you plan to purchase a Jaguar I-Pace, Audi e-tron, Porsche Taycan, or one of multiple offerings from Hyundai and Kia? Will you fare as well as those Tesla owners that are enjoying access to the company’s Supercharger Network? Our friend Sean Mitchell takes a closer look. Check out the video above and let us know your thoughts in the comment section below.

Video Description via Sean Mitchell (AllThingsEV.info) on YouTube:

Can a non-Tesla EV make it without the Tesla Supercharging network?

Even though most people charge their vehicles at home while they sleep, I’ve seen this concern come up quite a lot lately when discussing newer EV like the Porsche Taycan, Jaguar I-Pace, and Audi e-tron. This is largely understandable since a fast charging network takes an EV from around town commuter and adds the ability to use the vehicle for long road trips.

As a Tesla owner I benefit significantly from Tesla’s dense and reliable network of fast charging 100-120 kW stations, with rumored soon coming 200 kW charging, that allow me to go from coast to coast without worry.

Before we jump into the meat of the topic, let’s go back in time to where this nationwide fast charging precedent all began, Tesla’s September 2012 launch of the Supercharging network.

Supercharger event video: https://youtu.be/wgk5-eB9oTY

Since Tesla’s launch 6.5 years they have built a network of over 1,400 stations and more than 10,000 stalls that we see across the globe. In North America alone, we see more than 670 stalls all accessible from the in-car touchscreen. Source: https://supercharge.info/charts

How does that stack up to the most commonly used non-Tesla EV charging standard, Combined Charging System or CCS?

Using plugshare.com, it shows that I have access to nearly 800 CCS stalls in North America. Where it becomes incredibly confusing is how to know which ones are, let’s say, 100 kW or faster.

The Electrify America network, which is included on Plugshare’s map, says they offer between 50 kW – 350 kW on chargers near highways and 50 kW – 150kW in metropolitan areas. Furthermore, how do I know if as a Taycan owner, which will be able to take up to 350 kW, what speed I will get?

The next question is, could someone successfully get from, for example, California to New York, solely on a CCS network.

In summary, for most scenarios, it is possible to get around with a non-Tesla EV with CCS charging as most use at home or in-city chargers. Where it could get a tad inconvenient as of February 2019 is when you want to go on an extremely long road trip. Keep in mind, electricity is literally everywhere in the developed world so you shouldn’t have a problem charging, it’ll just depend on how fast that charge is.

My advice for those considering a Porsche Taycan, Jaguar I-Pace, Audi e-tron or any other non-Tesla EV is to check a third party EV map like Plugshare to verify that you’ll be able to get to the places you most travel using the CCS charging network before buying an EV.

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159 Comments on "Will Non-Tesla EV Owners Struggle Without A Supercharger Network?"

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Another Euro point of view

My attemps to find a site that allows to filter charging stations delivering according to charging power (above 50 kWh for example, in Europe) were so far unsuccessful. It’s a strange world were EVs are allover the news, EV this, EV that but when looking for the basic minimalistic info of where to fast charge a non-Tesla CCS EV, one just cannot find a convenient/clear source of information. Again that is for Europe, don’t know about US. Also, being the well known diesel troll here I am no specialist, maybe such a site exist and I did not find it. Any info welcome so I could perhaps start a mutation into an EV troll.

ZapMap allows you to filter points based on charging speed, but it’s UK only. And we only have one 100kW CCS point so far, heh.

That’s one of the clear advantages of the Supercharging network, no need to hunt for locations. One stop shopping, the car programs your destination through available Superchargers.

All from the comfort of your in-car display, including available stalls and nearby amenities, and I’m sure someday rough estimates on wait times (if applicable).

It is nice. Too bad it comes at a price most can’t afford. It’s good to have money. Lots of money.

To answer the question of this post, no, non Tesla owners do not struggle without a Super Charger network. Coming up on two years now and no struggling. I hate this stupid narrative that if you don’t buy a Tesla with the network, EVs just don’t work out. Don’t believe the hype.

Oh, and if I want to go to New York from California and damn straight going to take an airplane, just like I did when I was primarily driving an ICE powered car.

@Dav8or,
Maybe you don’t do family trips in your BEVs or you are very patient.

My answer is Yes. I have both Tesla and non-Tesla BEVs. The experience is day and night. One is similar to stopping for gas, the other is an exercise in frustration.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the tired notion that Tesla’s are only for the wealthy elite. I bought mine used for less than the price of a new Jeep Cherokee or F-150, which I see MANY folks driving around in- the same folks who look at me like I’m some elitist. There’s dozens and dozens of gently used Teslas at Autotrader and CarGurus for less than brand new Bolts and Nissan Leafs. Those Teslas have access to the Supercharging network. It’s simply a matter of what you want, and how bad you want it.

No one said you can’t survive in an EV without the Supercharging network- but it does make it a helluva lot easier when traveling long distance. And this is coming from a former Leaf and current Volt owner.

I got my P85+ pretty cheap too, but I love people thinking I got some money when I really don’t. The $300 a month I save in gas pays for a good chunk of the payment.

Now you’re talkin!

Goingelectric.de has a very good map, route planner and database. For the DACH region (Germany, Austria and Switzerland) anyway.

Yes you can get to LA on CCS but not all at 100kw from Ohio

The only real 100 kW CCS gap between Ohio and LA is in eastern Utah and that gap should be filled within six months.

I have little doubt (and sincerely) hope there are eventually more non-Tesla EV’s on the roads than Tesla’s so my biggest concern is how they are all going to share non-Supercharger stations. Many of these locations only have 1 or 2 chargers, a handful have 4 and I ~think~ Electrify America is aiming for an average of 6 per location. Tesla is approaching an AVERAGE of 10 per location and they still have crowding issues so how on earth are others going to share these smaller locations, with Tesla’s!!!, specifically to support long distance travel. I personally see it as something that is going to slow EV adoption as stories of charger wait times spread.

Maybe the reason that most of the EVs on the road today are Teslas is that they make a superior product that extends to a superior charging network. To paraphase your comment, I have little doubt (and sincerely hope) that the majority of non-Teslas will be relegated to city driving because no one is going to install high-power chargers in places like Lusk, WY except for Tesla.

Or Aulac, New Brunswick. There ~might~ be 100 Tesla’s in all of Atlantic Canada yet Tesla setup 8 Superchargers in one location. Now that’s forward thinking!

Of course someone will do it. They did build normal filling stations there, didn’t they? But the cost won’t be socialised over all the buyers of a single car company but you will have to pay more for charging at such places.

I’ve used the Supercharger in Lusk, WY, last summer:
http://tesla.dauger.com/roadtrip1808/17.html

Very small rural town. The proprietor hosting this Supercharger is a really nice guy.

“…no one is going to install high-power chargers in places like Lusk, WY except for Tesla.”

Not today or tomorrow. But 10 or 15 years from now, don’t make any large bets that there won’t be some.

I would bet even money that there are a plethora of non-Tesla fast chargers in rural areas in just 5 or 6 years. Most of them might be 75 kW or 100 kW, not 350 kW, but they will be fairly ubiquitous.

Eventually If the locals want customers than they will facilitate and perhaps somewhat subsidize chargers.
And in all likelihood, electrical utilities will eventually get off their non-innovative, laggard asses and start tapping this S-Curve growing market by also installing chargers.

I make several trips a year from Denver, CO to Sedona, AZ. In a BEV, this is now only possible in a Tesla, with Superchargers along I-70 and US-191 in small towns like Moab, UT, and Blanding, UT, or alternate route on US-285. My choice for BEV was limited to Tesla. Porsche doesn’t get it, with their concept of fast chargers at the dealership. I don’t anticipate long-distance, non-interstate travel possible in a non-Tesla BEV for a few years. Hope i am wrong on this perspective.

It is not really stimulating the energy transition if you have super charger stations only open to one brand. As if a fuel station only sells to one brand cars! It should have been forbidden to raise stations only open to one brand. Maybe this brand cars should not have access to CSS chargers, even better: they should use roads of their own!

Yes, competing charging networks only install the number of chargers that they expect the location requires. But, if demand exceeds the number of chargers then they can always install more chargers or a competing service provider can install more chargers across the street. And as far as your wait times, I have fast charged hundreds of times and I can count the number of times I had to wait with the fingers on one hand, at most locations it’s going to be a long time before demand exceeds the number of chargers.

Texas LEAF

How many 500 mile round trips have you taken in your LEAF? I’m a LEAF owner and a Tesla owner. The LEAF is a great little car for grocery store trips. It is not to be confused with a general purpose car like a Tesla Model 3. The charging needs are completely different.

Two or three 500 mile trips in a 2016 (107 EPA mile range) Leaf. MA to MD and back usually a week or so later. Most people would find the time wasted charging to be painful but I’m retired and very patient. I also can’t take my preferred route through PA since it is not possible with Chademo (it would be worse with CCS). I try to avoid the worst of the traffic nightmare regions that are at all avoidable (NYC, northern NJ or Philadephia, DE, I-95 approaching Baltimore) which does put me on a longer PA route where I need one J1772 stop. The food choices at a lot of car dealers is non-existant or so bad that there is nothing I’d be willing to eat. You can only drink a limited amount of DD coffee on a road trip and donut, bagels, or croisants is not exactly healthy eating (EVgo has a lot of chargers at DDs). More common is for me to take a 230 mile trip MA to CT with only one area with poor charging choices due to long time outage at Nissan in Old Saybrook, CT and total ripoff at Electrify America station near… Read more »

One of the reasons I bought the 2018 Leaf was to take advantage of the new Electrify America charging network. The maximum distance between EA stations is suppose to be 120 miles. The 150 EPA rated range for the 2018 Leaf provides a buffer rated to the distance between EA stations.

Since the EA stations have started going online I seem to be making 300+ mile trips every weekend either checking the construction of stations or actually charging at the stations. I made a 300+ mile trip last weekend and I have another one planned for next weekend. I also made a 2000 mile trip in my Leaf up to Colorado and back last December that I never tried without the EA stations.

If you are right and it will be a long time before demand exceeds the number of chargers, then the prospects are bleak indeed for the transition from ICEs to EVs. Because the number of CCS hookups, even in a high density population area like the greater LA area, is underwhelming.

The fact is that Tesla currently owns the lion’s share of EV sales. But if EVs are to become the preferred method of transportation by the vast majority of car/truck owners, Tesla’s market share must necessarily drop. They cannot possibly supply the volume of cars/trucks that would satisfy an EV-consuming public. And if the buildout of CCS locations continues at this onesy-twosy rate, the lack of demand for EVs will be a self-fulfilling prophesy.

relax.
While CSS is small numbers at locations, many are private networks. Once CCS EVs take off, then those companies will build out more on-site. At this time, having 1-2 connections / site is plenty good, esp. since the majority of EVs using SCs, remain Tesla. How many leafs do you see at these SCs? I NEVER see them, unless they are free (Denver Museum, whole foods ).

U must not live in cali.

No. I live in America, not cali.

No problems at in the Nordic countries at least, traveled around smoothly with my Leaf. PlugShare for rest of Europe is OK but could feature more info on payment options. If charger operators had gone with the obvious choice of including a card reader, like any gas station, you would only need to locate the station. Now it’s more of a headache since you may need RFID cards or more apps, and may not be able to use foreign credit cards for those.

I used a J1772 once and it was a pain. I had to call the number on the charger, enter the charger ID number and finally enter my credit card number. CCS needs a standard like Tesla where you have a single CCS account with credit card attached and it recognizes your car and charges your account. At a Supercharger, I just plug in. It even shows the cost on the car’s display screen. Not only was it faster to charge, it was faster to use. This is not hard to do. Why is it that only Tesla puts the extra effort into eliminating the little hassles. It’s like an EV having an ON/OFF button. Why?

I rented a Bolt EV to test just this, and came to the conclusion that, yes, I would struggle without the Supercharger network if I had to go on a trip that exceeded the range of the Bolt (about 160 miles in the winter on the highway).

CCS stations that do exist are concentrated in areas of dense populations in Michigan, and where they exist, many simply don’t work or are inaccessible due to ICEing (particularly at dealerships). I could technically drive anywhere since there are J1772 stations scattered across Michigan, but the rate of charge would be so slow it would make a road trip impractical.

When you pay for a Tesla, you aren’t just paying for a premium car. You’re getting access to a very well laid out network that enables you to drive almost anywhere in the US at charging speeds that frankly aren’t rivaled by the other networks.

With that said, I’m still very impressed with the Bolt EV. If it had the capability of charging on Superchargers, it would be a perfect car for me.

Mine is a great EV too, but it is dog-slow (2 1/2 times slower) at DCFC compared to my Model 3 Tesla.

What about CHAdeMO, what I believe is the most prevalent EV (-Tesla) standard on cars in the US?

uh no.
The majority of brands use CCS. As such, Chademo will disappear in America.

Chademo is only used on the Leaf and a handful of early EVs like the 1st gen Soul EV, and that Mitsubishi iMiev thing. Literally everyone else has moved on to CCS, even Hyundai/Kia who used to use Chad.

Chademo is often only 50kW, so it has diminishing relevance when that’s all you can find out there.

The Chademo spec in place when most chargers were installed was limited to up to 500V and up to 100A so theoretically 50kV but the Leaf battery is nominally 380V so 38KV but if getting closer to full as high as 390V to almost 400V so rate could peak at 40kV. Then the dual CCS/Chademo stations started going in and CCS is up to 400V and up to 125A so the chargers were designed for up to 500V and up to 125A. The Leaf was OK going over 100A so they simply violated the Chademo spec and allowed over 100A. I have not seen over 43kW on my 2016 Leaf but the newer ones can charge (for limited time) at much higher rates. Worse yet though is you could get away with using 208V 3-phase with a 25kW charger so quite of few of those (both CCS and Chademo) were installed. In plugshare or other app you have to look at the comments to find out this limitation. The Chademo spec was updated to allow 150kW charging (and I’m not sure the status of the 350-400 kW spec). Nissan should do themselves a favor and add CCS to their J1772… Read more »

The CHAdoMO charging protocol is used only by Japanese auto makers. It’s virtually certain by now that CCS is going to become the true EV charging standard in North America and Europe, and hopefully this will spread to other regions.

Tesla is already equipping European market Model 3’s to use CCS (as well as Tesla’s Superchargers). I think it’s fairly safe to predict that this will eventually also happen in the U.S./ Canada market, even though the technical challenges to that are more demanding.

I think the advantage of the Supercharging network cannot be underscored enough. The masses and media ‘analysts’ don’t quite grasp what the Supercharging network does, how it works, and the important differences between Superchargers and the rest. What’s also missed is the not only the spread of Supercharging locations across the United States, but also the vast amount of stalls at each location. And that exists right now, can be used right now- one doesn’t buy the EV and then have to wait months/years on the EA network to come. The vehicle is only one half of the EV equation, reliable quick charging is the other half.

The problem with charging networks is most people charge at home. So there is a critical number of vehicles that need to be on the road before there is a high enough probability that a charger in the middle of no where will be used. Tesla got around that issue by adding the cost of chargers to each car sold regardless if you ever use a charger. Kind of like car insurance – you pay for it, but might never use it. When your selling Model S/X that were averaging $90k+ a piece it’s easy to hide a couple thousand dollars that goes to charger deployment. Not as easy to do when you’re selling $30k+ vehicles like the Leaf and Bolt.

I agree, to a point. Tesla built out their Superchargers and leveraged themselves from the word “go.” I doubt they were able to completely ‘pay as they went’ regarding their Superchargers. But they were smart enough to understand that once their production explosion kicks in (with the Model 3) that they’d need Supercharging in place BEFORE the need arose, so the upfront infrastructure cost would pay off. Now companies like Jaguar and Audi have to tell their new customers, “Drive locally today and wait to road-trip later when the charging infrastructure is built” while Tesla already has both options in place.

Let’s say Tesla put $2,000 per car aside for SC. So Nissan could have put $600 side for CHAdeMO, but they didn’t. The rest, as they say, is history. Nissan, just like Tesla, had a huge advantage being early into the EV game. They could have really implemented CHAdeMO and made the LEAF as reasonably good trip vehicle. They could have released V2G at an early point and had the advantage that brings. I firmly believe if they had of done those two things right at the start then more manufacturers would have adopted CHAdeMO. But now we have CCS Combo. The standards committee could have specified Type 2 plug as the standard to be used world wide, but instead they allowed the Type 1 and Type 2 plugs, so it becomes more confusing in the world stage. And just like Tesla, BMW, VW group, etc could put $600 (or higher in the case of vehicles with Tesla sized prices) aside for charging networks, but they don’t. VW is only forced into the Electrify America network due to the huge diesel scandal, there wouldn’t be EA if that didn’t happen. Really, only now are these manufacturers realising the huge desire… Read more »

What a bunch of hoooey.

How many times do people travel “coast to coast” or California to New York? Very freaking rarely.

Trips over 200miles are a small percentage of traveled miles. For trips over 500 miles a majority of people fly. Especially people buying $40k-$80k cars. Or they have a second or third car that is an ICE or PHEV.

So what if it takes you bit longer. Road trips are about the journey, not how fast you can get there. Our last summer road trip we rented a minivan to carry 5 people, camping supplies and two large coolers full of food for my daughter that has food allergies. Google estimated 8hrs drive time and 500miles. We took 12hours becuase kids need breaks and you need food stops and bathrooms breaks and time to see sights and go for walks and whatnot. I’ve planned the route with charging stops using CCS and most of the required stops would have aligned well with the kind of breaks we took anyway.

Maybe if you are a hermit and never leave your house but I sure don’t live like that. A robust fast charging network allows you to get out and experience the next city or the next state. I have felt EV landlocked for years but finally the Electrify America network is making it practical to travel by EV to many of the places within a few hours drive that I want to go.

Freedom is synonymous with the freedom to travel, at least in the USA it is. Young people especially experience the urge to travel and experience new things and new places. If you try to sell electric vehicles by saying that there is no need for an EV to travel long distances then you are threatening peoples freedom and you are going to lose a great many prospective EV buyers.

“Maybe if you are a hermit and never leave your house but I sure don’t live like that.”

On the contrary: A few years ago, a survey showed that 55% of PEV (Plug-in EV) drivers had never, not once, used a public EV charger. I doubt the percentage has changed much since then.

A lot of EV owners have a “hybrid garage”, containing one PEV and one gasmobile. Such people may always use the gasmobile for longer trips which would require stopping to recharge if they drove the PEV.

“a survey showed that 55% of PEV (Plug-in EV) drivers had never, not once, used a public EV charger.”
That’s a bit misleading. If that statistic were BEV only it might be meaningful. My PHEV has not used public chargers, but has gone on trips that would have required one if it weren’t for the ICE. PHEVs rarely need to use a public charger, and they are a not-insignificant portion of PEVs.

A lot of EV owners have a “hybrid garage”, containing one PEV and one gasmobile.

Yeah, that’s us. Majority of trips happen in the Leaf, but anything with distance we use the Odyssey. I think my wife once plugged into a public J1772 for grins, but pretty much all our charging happens at home. I use the timer so it’s nearly always late at night that it pops on.

I can easily get to the next big city to the North or South or to multiple recreational destinations well within 200miles of my home. And there are chargers along the way or at those destinations. What’s the big deal?

I agree, for the most part anyway. Also I think that as time goes on North American Tesla owners will rue the fact that their cars don’t have access to the growing CCS network without adapters. Tesla made the right choice in Europe to go with the type two.

not likely. Tesla’s network in America is superior to both CCS/Chademo. I doubt that we will ever see CCS as anything except an expensive supplement. As it is, Tesla ppl gripe about charging costs and yet, it is a fraction of what the CCS stuff charge.

You are going to spend tens of thousands of dollars more for a car but complain about having to spend a couple of dollars on charging an alternative car, what a hypocrite. Spoiler alert; there is no such as a free lunch, the costs of Tesla Supercharging is bundled in the cost of the car.

So where do you think the costs of CCS/Chademo is bundled? Someone has to pay for it.

Since they are not being built out by automakers, they have to stand on their own and be profitable.

“As it is, Tesla ppl gripe about charging costs and yet, it is a fraction of what the CCS stuff charge.”

Dunno what EV forums you’re reading. I’ve seen surprisingly little griping from Teslae owners even when Tesla has raised its fees for Supercharger use.

Gasmobile drivers know that they will have to pay to fill their car with gas. And it won’t be long until PEV owners accept the fact that they’ll have to pay to use a fast-charge station. For-profit fast charge stations supported by demand is the only thing that makes sense, long-term. “Free” charging stations supported by the local municipality or some other source of public funding gives no incentive to keep the stations maintained. If they break down, they’ll be abandoned and the money used to build them will be wasted.

But let’s not make the mistake of thinking that EV fast-charge stations are merely the PEV equivalent of gas stations. Gasmobiles have to refill at gas stations. PEVs will continue to be charged mostly at home and/or at work, at lower costs.

“I doubt that we will ever see CCS as anything except an expensive supplement.”

“it is a fraction of what the CCS stuff charge.”

In many cases, this isn’t true.

If a Model 3 charged up 35kWh at an EA station at 120kW (<50% SOC), it would cost $0.20/kWh compared to $0.28/kWh on the Supercharger Network. Charging at slower rates would make it closer, of course, or possibly more expensive if you charge way into the taper, but it's definitely not inherently more expensive.

A 150kW eTron that can charge all the way to 80% at 150kW would pay just $0.15-16 at an EA station, much cheaper than charging at a SC.

I’ve had my Model 3 LR for 6 months. In 13,000 miles of travel from GA to FL, AL, TN, NC, and SC I’ve used Tesla’s supercharger network twice. It’s nice to know it’s there when I need it, but I have a hard time understanding how anyone can actually make money from a fast charge network without really high prices.

Here’s the deal, as of right now folks spend a LOT of money on long range EV’s. Maximizing usage of the vehicle is very important, it’s why I chose a Tesla over an i-Pace or E-tron, even though all 3 vehicles are equally compelling. Not having to hunt for quick charging is absolutely game-changing when hitting the road. I simply program my destination and my Model S does the rest. Why have something less for the same price? It ain’t hooey, the Supercharging network is simply better in every way (right now). More locations, locations intentionally placed to canvass the entire United States, plenty of stalls at all locations, and the fastest average charging speeds of any network in place right now.

If the ability to travel long distances didn’t matter, and it was “all about the journey” the iMiev would be the best selling EV in the United States, and nobody would buy PHEV’s.

Back here in reality, there is only one EV with less than 230 miles of range in the top 10 PHEV’s/EV’s sold in the US.

While it is a nice thought that people would be OK with short range slow charging EV’s, the numbers in the US market simply don’t support that claim, and this is a story about the US market.

I recently took the family on a road trip well over 1,000 miles in the Model 3, and I have to say it is fantastically good as a roadtrip car, despite its diminutive size.

I’m on my fifth EV and none of them have been Tesla’s. I do make long trips in my EVs. The non-Tesla charging networks have vastly improved in even the last three years. Sure there are problems with many of the new charging stations but the Tesla Supercharging network is hardly immune to problems. I am constantly reading posts on PlugShare about Tesla owners that had to divert to alternative charging stations because of Supercharger stations being off line. I still think the Tesla Supercharger network is a lability that is going to get harder and harder to maintain. With discussions about where the Taycan, eTron and iPace will charge, the person in the video seems to think that only rich people buy EVs. The purchase of expensive EVs may lead the EV revolution but it’s the purchase of EVs by moderate income people that will really cause the transition from fossil fuel vehicles. With the exponential growth in the number of moderately priced long range EVs like the Hyundai Kona Electric, the Kia Niro EV, the Nissan Leaf Plus and the Chevrolet Bolt EV, it looks like the transition is really picking up steam. Everything in the EV world… Read more »

LOL.
Tesla has ZERO pressure on them, except by themselves. At this point, there is nothing made that competes directly against Tesla. Rimac has it for speed, but that is a $million+. None of the other EVs currently made, can take on a Tesla.
The ONLY one coming that will take on tesla is the taycan. However, it will likely do far far more damage to porsche ICE sales than it will do to Tesla.

e-tron GT…

…and other small-volume compliance cars will never put any noticeable market pressure on Tesla.

As I mention above:
“But, until legacy car makers build BETTER EVs than their own ICE, they will not sell.”

Basically, if the EV does not compete against the legacy car makers models, then it can not compete against Tesla.

E-tron ?? Nope.
At this time, only taycan really is able to, and that is an assumption on my part.

But, until legacy car makers build BETTER EVs than their own ICE, they will not sell.
Why is this so?
Because M[S3X] are superior to all of their ICE competitors. That is why they are outselling them.
Looking at the price, specs, and even the interior of the E-tron, it is obvious that Audi designed it BELOW their own and obviously below Tesla.

Taycon will hurt porsche ICE sales, along with Tesla MS. BUT, I think that it will be Porsche ICE sales that will plummet due to Taycon. Smart on Porsche’s part.

ZERO pressure on them? not likely. Why did Elon put his whole company through “Production Hell” to get the Model 3 out? It was because after all his missed promises and outright lies Elon knew his investors were going to start abandoning him if his company did not produce.

Tesla stock is still way overpriced, they still haven’t been able to consistently make a profit and they still have a huge amount of debt. Even if Tesla starts to consistently make a profit, a lot of people are still going to have to lose a lot of money to get the stock price valued correctly. Tesla is still just a house of cards and one little stiff wind could blow it all down.

Wow, you’ve transitioned from a Tesla doubter to a full-fledged anti-Tesla FÜDster. What happened, did you decide to make a “short” investment in TSLA?

What a bushel of cabbage.

Remember Pushmi, Tex has been a raving serial anti-Tesla troll for years and ESPECIALLY on the subject of SuperChargers.

“I am constantly reading posts on PlugShare about Tesla owners that had to divert to alternative charging stations because of Supercharger stations being off line. I still think the Tesla Supercharger network is a lability [sic] that is going to get harder and harder to maintain…

“I have about two and half years left on my Leaf.”

Good grief! 🙄

Well, I suppose if I was forced to drive a Leaf on a daily basis, I’d be tempted to write sour grapes comments about the vastly superior Tesla cars and the Tesla Supercharger network, too.

There will come a day when Tesla’s legacy costs for the Supercharger network will make it more of a liability than an asset. A day when the CCS network will offer service as good or better than the Supercharger network in most areas. But that day is probably 10 years or more in the future. It’s certainly not coming soon.

I really don’t see how you think the Supercharger network will become a liability. Just the charges from Tesla owners should easily pay the fixed costs of the network. Even if that stopped being the case, converting them to dual standards and opening up the network would be relatively simple affair. If it makes economic sense for third party companies, then it will easily make sense for Tesla. Nevermind that they might become dual standard anyway, given Tesla’s involvement with the CharIn organization that is responsible for developing and improving the CCS standard.

Sure, an EV can make it across the country…but Musk’s main point with Tesla is that people will buy EVs instead of ICE cars if you don’t require them to compromise when they do. The other automakers still cannot grasp this really simple idea, or do not want to. If you find one of the 100 kw chargers in your Bolt or I-Pace, you have a ninety minute wait ahead of you. At a 50 kw station, the vast majority, get ready to watch two feature films while you recharge. Yeah, you can charge at a hotel in a pinch, if you get a room. It is a big compromise, and sales numbers reflect that not many are willing to make that compromse.

VW Group is saying 15 minute recharges…show me the charging network and we will have a winner.

Spoken like a person that has never driven or fast charged a non-Tesla EV. The wait times your talking about rarely happen and have never happened to me in the hundreds of times I have fast charged.

electrifyamerica.com

There. A winner.

If you think Electrify America is going to expand their network to rival Tesla’s Supercharger network, and if you think the EA network will be maintained once the funding from VW’s massive fine runs out… then prepare to be disappointed.

That charging network goes by the the name of Electrify America and it’s happening faster than most people realize. The Grand Junction, CO station not mentioned in this video goes live this week.

Also, people generally charge from 15-20% to 80% for efficiency and won’t waste time at slower stations, especially when faster stations are up ahead. Tesla is great but it’s no longer the only option for EV adventure.

actually, building out the 15 minute recharge network is not that difficult.
OTOH, getting their cells to last a LONG time with doing 15 minute recharges is a WHOLE other issue.
That is why Tesla developed with small cells, and they STILL can not do it.

Yes many struggle if they don’t have a Tesla for long distance travel. BUT you have to give the new Electrify America Fast Charging Network a few more months at least. They already have about 107 locations (FEB 2019) in and working with more being added all the time. By the end of 2019 you will be able to go many places with very Fast Charging. By next summer 2020 it should be very easy to travel. They also support both CCS and CHAdeMO so far.
It does make you see how great Tesla is with the longest distance cars, Super Fast charging and low cost. In 2020 and beyond cost will be the biggest question.

The EA website describes itself as a 10 year program. Yes, they will hit some goals before that, but their timeline for a comprehensive network is 10 years.

But EA is only part of the CCS fast charge network….it’s a comprehensive network of EA and other players like EVGo, Green Lots, ChargePoint, etc. that are also expanding.

Somehow and for whatever reason, evs quickly evolved into several charging configurations. It appears to me, a non ev owner, for Tesla supercharging to be the equivalent of premium gasoline and only configured for Teslas while other charging stations offer level 3/regular or CCS/CHAdeMO plug ins. Then add ultra(?) charging for Audi’s and Porsches with Porsche creating another plug?! Will charging stations consolidate the various plug configurations or evolve to better manage where an ev owner can find a charging station that’s compatible with his/her vehicle and have fast charging.

I blew you off when you mentioned Level 3 chargers, there is no such thing as a Level 3 charger in the USA but there is in Europe (SAE J1772 AC Level 3). The CCS chargers you are talking about are actually DC Level 2 (SAE J1772 DC Level 2) chargers. if you want people to respect your opinions then you should add a little accuracy to them.

The term “level 3”, an older term for DC fast charging, is considered outmoded by most EV advocates, but it is still seen in use occasionally even in recent discussions.

When it comes to cluelessness, “Texas Leaf”, perhaps you should look to the high volume of deliberate ignorance displayed about Tesla in your own posts in this thread.

https://chargehub.com/en/electric-car-charging-guide.html I claim no expert knowledge of evs and charging info but can Google to find info and separate fact Grimm fiction. Unfortunately self indulged conceited bloggers like yourself cannot accept some oversight from anyone and offer correction without being condescending. You’re lack of empathy shows in your disrespectful replies.

The information on that link is not based on the standard but on colloquial misinterpretation of the standard. You find this kind of garbage from people that have no respect for informational accuracy all over the internet. It looks like you have not only bought into this misinformation but are determine to propagate it.

There were two established plug configurations before Tesla came along. Neither plug could provide anywhere near 90 kW charging, so Tesla created their own standard and built out there own network.

Over time, all 3 standards evolved to all provide 100+ kW charging rates, but individual chargers and individual cars may only be capable of 50 kW charging.

There are some dual-charging stations that allow both CCS/CHAdeMO charging at the same station. Some Tesla locations have CCS chargers. And some adapters allow you to charge at different types of chargers. It is not optimal right now.

It depends where you want to go. Crossing North Dakota is a problem. Trans-Canada across the top of Lake Superior out to Alberta is a problem. BC/Yukon up to the Dempsey Highway is a problem. Most of the rest of the continent is fine at this point.

Driving from Alaska to Siberia is also a problem even though a former VP candiate from Alaska could see Sibera from her house. 🙂 AFAIK Elon has still not announced any plans for superchargers on that route.

The Bering Strait migration route?

Yes (you do know I’m kidding. Right?). No plan AFAIK for superchargers there. Probably hit North Dakota and Montana first. That would be my guess.

Model3 Owned- Niro EV TBD -Past-500e and Spark EV,

Nearly all driving is within the 200+ mile range — we’ve gone from San Diego to LA and back on same day without charge. Network is rarely needed.

For extended road trips, we usually take the Minivan or SUV for hauling — not our sedan. That said, we’re specifically taking out 3 to the Grand Canyon this spring just for the kicks and giggles to do part of 66 in the Tesla. otherwise, it would be the SUV.

Would no network stop us from having an EV? no. Would it prevent us from being a 100% EV family? Yes. but other factors play into that beyond the network, like having a$100,000 X hauler.

We won’t struggle, because almost all of us have an ICE based 2nd vehicle. Or we can rent one for a long trip.

Well yes and my wife won’t go on long trips in the EV but I do. The point is it’s getting more and more practical to make long trips in an EV. But there is no substitute for experience, to actually learn how to make a long trip in an EV you actually have to take a long trip in an EV.

Superchargers are great for long-distance travel. However, as somebody who rents a Tesla out on Turo I can tell you that Tesla is at a disadvantage compared to my CCS enabled cars. People ask “where can I charge quickly?” I pull up the map of superchargers and there are like 4 spots in the entire metroplex. But, when somebody rents one of my CCS cars, I pull up the map of CCS stations and there are like 30 or 40 of them in the same area.

Guess it depends on where you are. In my entire STATE (Victoria, Australia), there are about FIVE CCS charge locations (according to Plugshare; and none of which have more than two CCS stalls if I’ve not misread, and only one site has over 100kW charging – and one of its two stalls has been temporarily downrated to 50kW). On the other hand, there are six Tesla Supercharger locations, comprising 26 stalls in total. It’s still very difficult to travel at a ‘normal’ rate without a Tesla, here.
🙁

There are people who come here almost every they buy they still seem to not know anything about other EVs than the hyper-hyped Teslas.
Dear Eric Lovetesla, there are articles here, on insideevs about this. Sure, not yours or by Evannex, but from other people. You can read about Electrify America that, alone, will almost match the SC network in just a few months. Then you can read about their deal with Hubject thst will eliminate rfid cards and will make the roaming between their chargers and some other TENS of thousands of chargers a breeze.
It is impossible for me to believe that you don’t know about these things.

Do you have some links where I can better educate myself on charging? I’d like to be more conversant with the subject and, more specifically right now, better understand which systems can and can not be used by different EVs and which can, even if an adapter is needed.

I’m afraid that most experience EV users went through the School of Hard Knocks. If you really want to learn you can Google “SAE J1772”, the USA and European standard and “CHAdeMO”, the Japanese standard. Of course Tesla has its’ own standard.

100 % correct. Just bough a Jaguar I -pace in California. So much more car than a Tesla.
But , will ship it home to Kansas City. Not quite enough 50+ fast chargers in Eastern NM , and SE Kansas to make it easy to go long distance.
Expect that will be fixed in the very near future!

Of course you can do what you want to with your own car but I don’t think you looked at all the options. I think you could have done much better if you drove up I15 to I70. The only real CCS dead spot you would have found in your iPace is in eastern Utah and you might have been able to take care of that with an overnight charge.

There should be plenty of CCS chargers to get you across Kansas on I70 in an iPace and you wouldn’t even be going through New Mexico. Electrify America has over 300 hundred stations in the works so, sure if you wait a little while things will get better. I’m really not big on waiting for things that are suppose to happen in the future, last December I drove my 2018 Leaf from Texas to Colorado and charged at some of those same EA stations along I70.

Or took i80

One of the most confusing part (for the average non-EV enthusiast) of electric vehicle ownership is the lack of a single DC fast charging standard in the United States. At this point, it seems like the only solution to this problem is to get the government involved. Perhaps if the EV tax credits could be extended for all manufactures’, then in order to qualify for the tax credit you would have to have a CCS port with a minimum of 100kwh charging. I know Tesla owners will not like this comment, but Tesla could add a CCS port to their cars, like they did for Europe.

That would be a great start.

I think you are wrong about Tesla owners. I like what Tesla is doing in Europe. Owners still get the advantages of the Supercharger network with other CCS chargers filling in. Tesla did their own system because what was around was either low power or very bulky. I do dislike the size of the CCS connector but I can live with it in return for more flexible charging. Eventually I expect Tesla chargers even in the US to support CCS.

We need to be able to sign up to a service that will tell us how to and will guarantee we can get where we’re going, tell us how long it will take, and be able to call them for help if a charger doesn’t work. Tesla has this.

Chevy made some arrangements with charging networks to have this in the Bolt.

“Will Non-Tesla EV Owners Struggle Without A Supercharger Network?”

As with many things: YMMV: Your Mileage May Vary

A few years back, 55% of PEV (Plug-in EV) drivers said they had never used a public EV charger. So lots of PEV drivers never drive their car beyond its normal range.

To be sure, the Supercharger network makes long-distance travel in a BEV easier. But that’s a matter of degree, not kind. The Supercharger network isn’t everywhere. We already see reports of coast-to-coast travel using the CCS network, so it’s not like it’s impossible to do so… it’s just more difficult and takes more pre-planning than using the Supercharger network.

(continued…)

(…continued)

Let’s keep in mind that only about 1% of the cars on the road, or perhaps even less, are PEVs. Outside California, there simply isn’t much demand for public EV chargers. In the days when 99% of people were riding or driving horses, and only 1% of the people drove motorcars, were there gas stations to be found in every town and along every highway? Heck no! In fact, what we now think of as “highways” were almost nonexistent. The motorcar revolution created a demand for paved roads and gas stations everywhere. The EV revolution will do likewise, altho at a slower pace because most PEV charging will continue to be done at home, lowering demand.

I’m in Texas; In the two months I’ve had a Model 3, I’ve been to Superchargers 6 times, 3 of those times all or nearly all of the chargers were occupied. And this is a state where you can not – formally – buy a Tesla (our corrupt legislature would rather send several thousand bucks in sales taxes per vehicle to Nevada or California).

My family has a model 3. We plan on getting rid of our subuaru for a model Y or other small SUV EV. When I do consider a non-tesla Ev I often get stuck on Super charging. The next EV we get will be our road trip car. We often head to VT. Tesla has the charging network we need already. So far I see no way of doing it via CCS. I hope that does change so we have more EV options. Right now Tesla is so far ahead in this area.

As much as I like PlugShare, it does not filter on “hours available” or “peak charge rate.” So dealer CCS, CHAdeMO, and L2 chargers are not available outside of business hours.

A second problem are underrated, L2 chargers. Many are configured for significantly less than 40 amps, 8.3 kW, and their true rate is not externally listed. I’ve seen as low as 16 A, 3.3 kW. But even with a full power L2, it does little good if modern EVs have underrated, built-in chargers of 3.3-7.2 kW.

Either the title is wrong or the article is bad. No word about e.g. Ionity or Fastned (and no word in the title about the region that is meant which means for me world-wide, also because especially Fastned is mentioned on this website quite often).

notting

PS: Here are CCS chargers with at least 50kW at like every rest stop for years now and some much faster ones are also at some places – incl. some stalls with 350kW.

In a way, I know the feeling.
Over the years I’ve occasionally used portable GPS’s for navigation. Then, with a Leaf for the last 5 years I almost never could be bothered with the clunky, awkward, slow, built- in GPS.

Now, in a Tesla 3, with that huge fast display, it’s like an ongoing miracle. Use it all the time even on some well known routes for its traffic route-around.
Then there’s Navigate-on-Autopilot. . . .

There will be a global fast charging network. If Tesla has advantage (in the US, not so much elsewhere) it’s temporary.
Tesla network is not good enough for an EV only world, distance between chargers it’s huge. It’s better than nothing but it’s tiny compared with fuel stations. It seems obvious that soon there will be so many fast chargers as filling stations… or similar.
It makes no sense today for a maker starting building there private charging network. All chargers must be able to charge all cars anywhere in the world.

The Supercharger network was a compelling reason for us to buy our used Model S. We started with an 83-range miled Fiat 500e as an errand/commuter car that we drove ~100 miles each day (required plugging in 3 times a day), but that car would not be practical for trips beyond 70 miles given the long charge time. I considered going for a new Kona/Niro, Bolt, or wait for a used I-pace to get affordable, but the network, placement, and reliability of the Supercharger network just made sense. There are a few CCS charging stations in my area, but I’m not sure how reliable or available they are. I’ve seen a few that are out of service too often or occupied. It will nice to see wireless induction charging to reduce stall-hogging and perhaps fast-charging will be prioritized for folks who the fast charge. Residents, office workers, and movie goers will spend anywhere between 2.5hrs-10hrs away from their cars. Folks who are out for a meal, shoppers, or roadtrippers would benefit from fast-charging. 90% of the time, overnight charging at 4.6kWh will suffice for 175 miles of driving for the day. 10% of the time Supercharging or taking our 680… Read more »

I don’t think the Bolt would have 138 days of inventory sitting on lots if GM had a SC network, equivalent to Tesla’s. Also the Volt would probably not have been axed.

Stop the FUD. Volt program is ending becuase the ICE platform it shares with the Cruze is ending.

right.
They did not sell well.

EXCELLENT thought provoking article,which is a crux in many arguments ( and investments) It was clearly very very insightful to invest in chargers for Tesla, from Tesla. BUT in context of this article and comments below – The Internet is global but opinions on this subject are by definition local – by country. Problem of relevance in evaluating opinions Maybe Inside EVs can note originating location of comments – and then allow appropriate sorting in order to define relevance.
Many thanks to InsideEVs and Sean

I don’t know about you, but if I have to travel all the way across the country, I take an airplane.

But consumers are stupid. They’ll buy an off-road pickup truck, even though they’ll never drive it off road. They’ll buy a 200+ mph car, even though freeway traffic limits their speed to 80 mph at best. They’ll choose a car with a spoiler, even though that spoiler is purely cosmetic. And, they’ll choose a 400+ mile EV, even though they’ll likely never drive more than 150-200 miles per day.

My wife and I live in MA and both have relatives in CT. When my mother was ill and later passed, and then my aunt, then her grandmother, then her mother, then her father, we took all too many 200+ mile trips to take someone to a doctor when no one living closer could make it or in some cases to head to the ICU. My wife was live in help for weeks and even months at a time for her grandmother and father. This began a decade ago so first ICE, then hybrid, but I would not take any BEV for a trip to the ICU on one of those “this could be the last” visits other than a Tesla with the range to comfortably make it at 75mph or more without a charging stop (which I’ve never owned). And flying would take much longer than driving for this trip. No one ever drives over 200 miles or needs a 4wd pickup is nonsense. I also own a 4WD F-250, use it for towing and carrying loads and would have needed a tow truck many times due to sand or mud if it was 2WD. Many people have needs… Read more »
The SuperCharger network does kind of go against Elon’s desire to change the automotive industry. Tesla cars proved electric car’s are competitive in the market place, the SuperCharger network showed that a network can be setup relatively fast. But then Tesla keeps the industry they set out to change, locked out of SuperChargers with their brand exclusive connector. And staying locked into Tesla just for the SuperCharger network isn’t worth it, I had a Model X, and got tired of it to the point where I traded it for an I-Pace. The design quality of my Model X was not on par with similarly priced cars, the software glitches were manageable but irritating. But the lousy service was the Tesla killer, the frequency of issues that had me going in for service, the distance to the only service center, and not knowing when I’d get my car back, or if it was fixed correctly really stunk. The SuperCharger network is fantastic, but it’s not doing as much as it could to aid the EV revolution. The SuperCharger network should be part of Tesla energy, you don’t need a Tesla car to buy a Tesla home solar system. Like their solar… Read more »

From article: “..It seems whenever we share information about a new electric vehicle, there are many naysayers that refuse to give it any credit if it doesn’t bring with it its own fast-charging network. Basically, this means every EV that’s not a Tesla. However, just because an automaker doesn’t build out its own charging network doesn’t mean the car itself is a lemon…”
———————

Stating that an EV without access to a robust convenient and reliable fast charge network (for those occasional long distance drives) for most consumers represents an inconvenience and/or compromise compared to ICE cars is not saying the EV is a “lemon” or deserves no credit.

Not a lemon but doesn’t meet many peoples needs (or some argue “perceived needs”) and so won’t have the same mass appeal and success. The very high ratio of Tesla Model 3 sold vs Bolt or Leaf (and likely soon I-Pace or E-tron or Mission-E aka Taycan) is at least partially due to that.

I’ve got a big bone to pick with the guy in the video. Guy was saying that he didn’t think he could find an EV route across eastern Utah for the iPace. I have a route planned out on PlugShare from LA to Denver for my 2018 with no leg more than 100 miles.

I do have a little dip south of I70 near the Utah/Colorado border where I had to use RV parks to charge but it works. To say you can’t drive a iPace from LA to New York is just ridiculous. I know a guy the drove a 2018 Leaf from San Diego to Connecticut a few months ago even before there were really any Electrify America stations operation.

The guy really has Tesla tunnel vision and needs to get out and do some real EV driving.

If Elon walked the talk, the supercharger network would have CCS plugs and would be available to all.
But I guess it’s easier to berate other manufacturers than do what you preach.

ah – no…That is why he is a billionaire entrepreneur and you aren’t.

Elon has an open offer for other EV manufacturers to share some of the cost and be able to use the superchargers (with adapter if they chose not to use the same standard). None have taken him up on it. Telsa has an adapter to allow their cars to use Chademo and European Model 3 uses CCS. It was those that came late to the game that had no BEV but drove the CCS spec after Nissan was already building cars with Chademo and Tesla was already building cars with their own 100+ kW charger and offering the standard to anyone else that wanted to use it. CCS may have been in part created to fragment the market before any of those promoting CCS had a BEV even on the drawing board.

So, what you are saying is that you have a vehicle with CCS plug and expect the Tesla folks to pay for your access.
Yes?

No thank you.

As reported to the AFDC dot Energy dot Gov, there are:
CHAdeMO – 1,803 stations
CCS – 1,508
Superchargers – 607
located in the USA as of their last info. Hundreds are in-process.
With a 200 mile CCS EV, you can get across the USA, but might have to use 1-3 Level 2 sites in the Utah Gap.
By the end of the summer that should be fixed.
East of the Mississippi is well covered.
The west coast has sparse coverage mainly due to California stalling their planned stations, but you can still make it.

This summer is when things are changing. The >100kW sites are coming online, the flyover gaps are being filled, and companies will bypass California’s State funded plan since it will probably never arrive. A second train between Bakersfield and Merced, a bunch of chargers for the Capitol bureaucrats, and H2 fuel stations for cars that were never sold are going to stop California’s State EV Corridors.

Its also the number of chargers per station (Chademo mostly one or two, CCS mostly one, but Chademo/CCS occasionally 6 and very rarely more, superchargers nearly alway 6 or more, many with dozens) and the location (Chademo/CCS in dealer lots (ICEd in) and shopping malls well off the highway and clustered in population centers, vs superchargers located near highways, near good food choices, and well spaced along major travel routes). Even with EA (Electrify America) some states don’t get it. PA for example has only stations near Philadelphia planned to spoke out from there (assumption seems to be used by commuters, not long distance travelers) or near Pittsburgh with no E-W route across the state and no N-S other than at the very east side of the state. PA has alos prioritize toll roads. NY also has no viable E-W route and seem to have prioritized the NYC to Albany corridor (I-87, also a toll road).

interestingly, the tesla network with fewer stations has MUCH better coverage.

Not if the empty EvGO CSS Fast Chargers I see all over the place are any guide. The non-Tesla fast charging network is currently underutilized and it is growing fast.

Looking Bjorn Nyland’s various tests of non-Tesla’s in Norway are any indication, it is not a problem there and that’s with highest percentage of EV’s in the world.

I would love to know the cost of each different port used in EV’s. Perhaps a replacement part cost comparison would shed some light.
J-1772 vs CHAdeMO vs CCS/SAE vs Tesla Supercharger port.

NPNS! SBF!
Volt#671 + BoltEV + Model 3

I don’t know the answer but the costliest on the car side might be J1772 since it requires a charger in the car with liquid cooling system for the charger while for the others are DC (hefty connector, wiring, contactors and some eletronics). If you want AC (to enable home charging) the J1772 is needed so no one is going to leave that out. The J1772 EVSE (aka home charger) is a glorified wall outlet so that is cheap to make. The 50kW DC chargers are $10k-ish AFAIK and costs go up 5% if supporting both Chademo and CCS vs one or the other. The cost of bringing in that much utility power and trenching parking lots usually dwarfs the cost of the charger itself. This makes it almost silly to install one or two unless anticpating that it will rarely be used (plan for falilure). Might be why EVgo is now installing 6 at a site in a lot of new installations.

“I don’t know the answer but the costliest on the car side might be J1772 since it requires a charger in the car with liquid cooling system for the charger…”

I’m not sure about that. Doesn’t that base Leaf come with a J1772 port and not have liquid cooling?

NPNS! SBF!
Volt#671 + BoltEV + Model 3

I looked online. The charger/inverter assembly sits in the thing that looks like a hat on top of the engine. It is definitely liquid cooled. It makes sense for the heat sinks for the power components to be carrying coolant since at 6.6kW for the charger and 100+ kW for the motor even a small inefficiency would be a lot of heat disipated in a small hunk of silicon.

There is a Catch-22 going on with Interstate EV Networks.
EV’s are mostly bought by the affluent in the US.
These are the same people who often have the tightest schedules, and fly more often.
People who can’t afford to fly or who’s schedule is open, should have to pay a large premium for cost-ineffective remote locations.
Only urban area DCFCs stand a good chance of paying for themselves.

The problem with the Supercharger Network, is that it requires you to buy a car that only allows service and parts from their sales centers, and the choices are very limited. 3 models all priced to the higher end.

So those who are most likely to fly and yet afford high cost per mile for purchase and service, are the ones most suited for the remote location DCFCs.

i hear a lot of billionaires opt for a Fiat 500e over the e-Golf or Leaf. Though some of the super affluent are trading in their Civics and Corollas and Prius for Model 3. I think there may be a flaw in your “only the affluent” premise. Chargers installed by a BEV manufacter pay for themselves if they make the BEV more successful but I’m not sure anyone other than Tesla want to be very successful because they can’t buy enough batteries from LG Chem or CATL or whoever to support being successful (yet). The “only serviced by Tesla” and “limited choice” make is sound like this post is primarily to bash Tesla.

Oddly enough, my opinion has not changed since 2011. It will change when EVs are cheaper than ICE cars, which is coming some day. Remote charging has never come into play for our family of 4 as of yet. Destination charging? Sure. But not travel. My opinion on Priuses and H2 cars have not changed either. Being ‘green’ should not be a punishment.

My 2016 Leaf SV MSRP was roughly $37k but dealers were discounting, Nissan was offering $6k rebate, Feds provided $7.5k, MA $2.5k so ended up about $18k. That’s a cheap new car. I did opt for a lease because I figured BEVs would be much better by summer 2019 when that lease was up though clearly buying outright and keeping the car for the typical 8-10 years that I keep a car would have been cheaper. I bought my son a 2017 Bolt and though GM was discounting it was a lot more than the Leaf. He does more distance driving so needed the range. The 2019 40kW Leaf may get super discounts and end up being a really cheap car with reasonable range. Like many I’m hoping the $35k Model 3 arrives soon.

Why was the Bolt left out of discussion?
They’re similar to the Kia/Hyundia offerings.

I’m glad you bought that up. Actually I think the Bolt EV is a wonderful car for more reasons than I can go into here. If Chevrolet had offered the Bolt EV with Adaptive Cruise Control then I probably would be driving the Bolt EV instead of the Leaf I’m driving today.

If Chevrolet ups the option list a bit by the time the lease on my Leaf expires then I might be looking at the Bolt EV again. Right now the Kona Electric and Niro EV are at the top of my wish list. But it will be a couple of years until my lease expires and a lot could happen by then.

I don’t think I will be going with a Leaf again. The Leaf has some pretty nice features but it does struggle on long trips. Even with the bigger battery of the Leaf Plus, that’s not likely to change.

Perhaps because of the charging rate (kW) after 50% or 55% SOC? Below those SOCs it is on the lower end as well compared to the other EVs out there with larger batteries.

Because everyone drives from LA to NYC…

No, but anything beyond 300-400 miles can be a pain without reliable and accessible quick charging.

Seems like a US infrastructure problem. In Germany alone there are some 1500 CCS locations and 25k level 2 chargers. Tesla gave up on their own standard with Model 3 since they are clearly not competitive in the future. A smart move, makes you wonder when it will happen in the US. (The myth that Tesla was forced to do it is not true. The EU regulation clearly allows for non public third party standards to exist)

You are correct. US is a bit larger geographically than Germany as you know and its population centers are more spread out. Tesla supercharger predated the CCS standard and CCS was for many years limited to 50kW. Tesla built the supercharger network in the US to solve the problem of long distance travel and did the same in Europe when there were very few CCS chargers anywhere but no other manufacturer has done this. A few European countries have well planned and well subsidized charging networks and enough population density for independents to (usually with subsidies) provide good charger coverage. In the US the independents (ChargePoint, EVgo, etc) have to deal with 50 states, some with subsidies but some hostile to BEVs, and vast areas of sparse population where a charging station might not recover the investment for a decade or two (if ever).

In North America alone, we see more than 670 stalls all accessible from the in-car touchscreen.

Incorrect info. There are more than 1,000 supercharging stalls just in California.

stations, not stall.

Been driving a 2011 Leaf SV(no DC charger socket) for 8 years; charging at night and driving within the car’s range. Distance driving is done with a 2000 Tacoma(still in prime shape) or a rent-a-car. My substitute for fast charging is ‘good planning.’

The need for fast charging, of course, depends on the variables; just like any other engineering question. For example; if you’re a traveling salesman with a large territory and a short range EV, you may need fast charging; however, with a small territory,you may not.

You live in a smaller world than I. There are two airports nearby, that is 90 and 100 miles away. Public transportation is poor so 3-4 hours plus maybe have to wait in the airport quite a few hours due to bus schedule. Driving to the airport is best opion and your Leaf would not make the journey. For that matter a doctor I go to is 51 miles away I couldn’t make it to the doctor and back in your Leaf without hours at a J1772 charger. Where is this very small territory? btw- the best way to the airport for me is drive 80% of the way to an airport shuttle with cheap parking (dirt cheap compared to the airport parking).

Great point of discussion. I’ve been shopping around for a (less expensive cpo nonTesla) second EV vehicle and have learned that the level of ease and information available varies significantly between the different vehicles.
Sadly, some of the challenge is actually intentional. Many of the fast charge and level 2 charging stations only can be seen by their own customers. I.e- fast charger at BMW dealership doesnt show up on Chevy app. Even when you see the chargers, it is not easy to figure out what level charger on their nav systems, with the exception of the Leaf. Tesla’s upperhand is not just because of the size of the infrastructure, but for how seamless it is to include charge stops in the nav plan.

I love the video but I am super sorry to say there is no way that you can make it I’ve driven several times from my location most chargers on EV plug sure don’t work most chargers some chargers are even there summer supported by networks that don’t even exist anymore it is very on reliable I just got back from a trip to Tennessee that was covered with blink charger out of the eight blink chargers that I seen we found one that work we’re all the other chargers were still on PlugShare is Matt

Sorry about the comment voice to text wasn’t doing as good as I thought it was lol

Waiting on the taycan

Here’s the bigger problem with ALL evs making the batteries more cold proof. Thats the problem with EV’s once it gets cold you start losing power and now your charge rates go to complete crap. Seeing my next door neighbors having to buy an ICE car because sometimes it gets cold enough to the point the tesla just cant handle that temp drop is both hilarious yet sad because they paid near 100k for their M.X but their early 2010’s wrangler has no issue