60 kWh Nissan LEAF Still Lacks Liquid Cooling: Report

Nissan LEAF

DEC 5 2018 BY WADE MALONE 151

New Leaf is likely to have cooling similar to the e-NV200

The 60 kWh Nissan Leaf has been one of the most poorly kept secrets in the EV world for years. Up until recently, we had expected the reveal to occur in late 2018. However, the Japanese automaker announced last month that the reveal would be postponed. Nissan said that the recent event was postponed because the ousting of Carlos Ghosn would cause too much of a distraction. The delay was needed “to ensure that this important product unveiling could receive the coverage it merits.”

According to electrive, a new reveal date has now been set. The 60 kWh model will reportedly take the stage at the 2019 Consumer Electronics Show in January. This info was provided at a recent Nissan dealer event. No major aesthetic changes are expected to accompany the new model.

In addition to the larger battery pack, 100 kW CHAdeMO fast charging is expected. However, there is some bad news as well. It seems that active thermal management with liquid cooling is still not on the docket. Considering owner’s past issues, it would be disappointing if the otherwise improved Leaf was still held back by a passive air cooled pack. Electric vehicles with liquid cooled battery packs from Tesla and Chevrolet seem to hold up better. Especially for owners that regularly fast charge and live in regions with higher temperatures.

But thankfully it seems there will be some type of active cooling. Even a simple fan would help – and this is what electrive has heard is coming. If true, it would likely work similarly to the Nissan e-NV200’s system that kicks in while fast charging. But we will have to wait until January to find out definitively.

 Nissan LEAF

2018 Nissan LEAF
42 photos
2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF charging 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF (wallpaper 2,560x – click to enlarge) 2018 Nissan LEAF (wallpaper 2,560x – click to enlarge) 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF Inside the 2018 Nissan LEAF Inside the 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF 2018 Nissan LEAF

Source: electrive

Categories: Nissan

Tags: , , , ,

Leave a Reply

151 Comments on "60 kWh Nissan LEAF Still Lacks Liquid Cooling: Report"

newest oldest most voted
God/Bacardi

80% lease ’em anyways…

xcat

& better off on a 2 year lease based on my experience owning 3 of them.

Get Real

Nissan is really becoming a ship of fools if they think this will help.

Not properly engineering to care for the single most expensive component of an EV is like making a deal with the devil and the devil always gets his due at the end.

Null

—OR—
It’s a brilliant attempt at sabotaging the EV transition.

Nothing like a seemingly good effort producing a bitter experience for anyone many who BOUGHT them to ruin a platform.

Remember Chevy’s “attempt” at diesel?
How odd their commercial offerings and other market offerings did o.k.?

Mark.ca

Not in CA….you would be missing state credits.

pipestem

which means another n>80% buy used, and they could be affected.

Mark W

Off my list. Nice job Nissan.

Val

The better you control temperature less degradation you have. Air cooling and liquid cooling have been around for a very long time. There are no secrets there. You go air you pay less you have less control. You go liquid you pay more but you control better. If I buy an electric car I intend to keep it for a long time in order to take advantage of all benefits of an EV. Nissan is off my list too.

Eric Cote

Yup. A bunch more Bolt EV’s might’ve just been sold as a result of this now as well.

Craig

The problem with the Bolt EV is it is a Chevy.

Lil Sparky

Off my list too. My 2016 Leaf lease ends next summer and its almost certain to be replaced by a Tesla Model 3, paid for with some of my TSLA stock profits. Currently lease a Leaf and sort of owned a Bolt but transferred title to my son this past Tuesday.

> The 60 kWh Nissan Leaf has been one of the most poorly kept secrets in the EV world for years.

Hardware equivalent of vaporware since at least 2015.

With the crappy 7″ display in the Leaf and lots of other annoying incompetance on Nissan’s part I’d pick the Bolt over Leaf anyway but continuing to use an air cooled battery eliminates Leaf from any consideration.

Clive

Leaf has better seats.

Hopefully Chevy will replace the seats as expected.

bioburner

I’m not surprised. Very disappointed that this major EV player is not providing active liquid cooling. Nissan is just going for the lowest price point.

ffbj

They already said it would have big fans and fins a year ago.
Scroll down to my comment on this thread:
https://insideevs.com/2018-nissan-leaf-review-and-test-drive-video/

Dan

Nissan apparently trying to kill off EVs.

Prsnep

Annnnnd hyperbole ensued.

Allan

Not all EVs, just theirs.

R.S

It’s really sad to see.

Nissan were such pioneers in the EV field, but got beaten by GM to have a 200 mile EV, they still only have the Leaf, while others are preparing for shared platforms(VW), or already have them (Kia/Hyundai) and now they apparently even won’t learn from their own mistakes.

They sunk a lot of money in the first generation Leaf, but now they are not ready to cash in on the experiences they made. If Hyundai/Kia can come up with 3 better totally new EVs from basically nothing in the same time you need to improve your single one, you had for 8 years, then you’re doing something wrong. Just wait until VW releases one new EV per year and you can throw your early mover advantage, where you should have put your battery cooling strategies…

Pushmi-Pullyu

Not all EVs, just Nissan EVs. 🙁

Cavaron

Renault Zoe has AC fan cooling only and at least the old version has no decline in fast chargin (43 kW that is). I did it 4 times in a row once.

arne-nl

My experience exactly. I had a Zoe and routinely measured battery capacity (calculating back from SoC and used energy after each drive) could not measure any degradation after 3 years and 90 k km.

Rightofthepeople

Try that in the southeastern US or better yet the desert Southwest. Some climates really do need more active cooling.

BoltEV (was SparkEV)

“could not measure any degradation after 3 years and 90 k km”

Either you’re measuring it wrong or the equipment / car is lying to you. There is no new Physics in Zoe.

Bro1999

What were the ambient temps when you did all that fast charging?

HVACman
HIgh ambient is not a factor with the Zoe. The trick with effective pack air-cooling is to use the AC refrigerant system to chill the pack cooling air, which the Zoe does by using an independent evaporator coil. Just like the liquid cooled packs use the AC system to chill the glycol. if the air doing the pack cooling is AC-cooled, the ambient temperature isn’t as much of a factor. A good automotive AC system can deliver 3 tons of 45 deg. F cooling air even if the ambient is 110 F. If Nissan Leaf follows the Zoe pack cooling concept, it probably will be OK. https://canze.fisch.lu/cooling-the-zoe-battery/ From my perspective, the problem with AC air cooling is pack volume and configuration, along with achieving the cooling density levels to handle very high charge rates (100 kW and up). You need a lot more open volume in the modules to allow the air flow to get to the cells. A thin skateboard pack won’t work with air cooling. Liquid-cooling allows complete pack architectural flexibility, as you can route skinny glycol tubes anywhere and a simple thin chilled bottom plate (or “snake” type between-cell cooling tubes in Tesla’s case) is sufficient to… Read more »
wavelet

The technical details are highly appreciated. Thanks (-:

Pushmi-Pullyu

Thanks very much for the info dump, HVACman!

But you didn’t touch on the fact that using refrigeration takes a lot more energy for heat transfer (per BTU) than liquid cooling using a water pump and a radiator.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Exactly what I was thinking. Forced-air cooling can’t lower the temperature lower than the ambient outside temp. It’s been pretty well established that a battery pack having a sustained temperature above 100° F for 24 hours or more, especially being at that temp while charging, results in premature battery aging.

In the Phoenix area, as well as a few regions of California and Texas, there are periods during the year where the temperature never drops below 100° F, not even at night. Using forced-air cooling when the outside temp is above 100° F doesn’t help much!

I’m bitterly disappointed in Nissan. They refused to make any substantial improvements in the Leaf for 8 years… and now this! It looks like Nissan is actively trying to kill off demand for the Leaf. And from several comments above, it looks like they’ve gone a long way toward succeeding. 🙁

Cypress

CHAdeMO = D.O.A.

Cypress

It will cost less then the competition, more than likely. But that might be the only positive in its favor.

Taylor Marks

I heard it’s going to be nearly $37K – that puts it at more expensive than a base Model 3, while charging much slower, only accepting CHAdeMO which is a dying standard, no software updates, etc…

I’m not sure how it can be said it’s better than either the Model 3 or the Bolt, or the other 220-240 mile EVs.

David

There is no base model 3. There is nothing anywhere near a $35k Model 3.

antrik

Nor is there a 60 kWh Leaf…

Clive

But here is the thing David.

You can bet it’s only a few months away before it can be ordered.

Mark W

Haven’t hundreds of thousands of people already been in line for it for years? If you are not already in line for one, do you think you will be able to get one?

Clive

Yes because I am in on the west coast here in North America.

A ton of those deposits are from around the world.

I personally want the premium upgrade.

My Black Model 3 will be 40k

Francesco

Your comparing one car that does not exist with another car that does not exist. Can we give all those solid electrolyte battery makers a pass now for all the vapour ware they are pushing.

Do Not Read Between The Lines

Ironic, if you think about it.

Andy

Even if they end up the same/similar price, they are two different form factors in two different types of car so that will differentiate them. Europeans especially far prefer hatchbacks to saloons, so while it may not fare as well in North America (where saloons/sedans are a much bigger thing) it’ll do well elsewhere.

Do Not Read Between The Lines

Sedans are less popular here than they used to be.
Americans discovered the joy of driving a big box.

jasonb

Does model 3 have liquid cooling?

Ralf

Of cause it has and heating.

jasonb

Does it have heat pump?

arne-nl

no

Undertaker

No heat pump = DOA

ffbj

Huge sales would indicate otherwise.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Obviously hundreds of thousands of TM3 buyers strongly disagree with your opinion.

Will

Yes

TheWay

It has the best liquid cooling system of any car. (Even better than the Model S)

Prsnep

Source for the “best” claim?

Allan

Check Monroe’s analysis, it’s an evolution of model S one with major refinements, better at throughput and wrapping around the battery cylinders.

ModernMarvelFan

Monroe is the guy who already made wrong assumptions. Tesla claims $38K cost while Monroe claims $28K. So, there is that.

Do Not Read Between The Lines

Nope. Unless Elon Musk explains what he meant by “Depending on how you count it” (assuming he wrote it) you don’t know what the manufacturing cost is.

HVACman

TheWay is probably correct. Do George and I count as a “source”? We’ve reverse-engineered and posted articles here on IEVs about the TMS systems of about all the currently-available retail BEVs which have TMS data available. The Model 3’s module heat transfer capacity is far and away the highest. We haven’t yet figured out what Porsche is doing with the Taycan pack to allow their massive 350 kW charge rate and VW isn’t yet willing to divulge their secrets.

Keith

Steven Loveday

Thanks, Keith.

ModernMarvelFan

Best among BEVs, but if we include PHEVs, then it is arguable that it isn’t the best, but still among the top 3.

Andy

It’s also the most expensive to maintain (at least if you follow the Tesla recommended maintenance schedule).

Dave100e

If you build a car to price, this is what you get. If manufacturers release the cheap EV’s everyone is asking for there’s going to compromises to make, just like this.

Allan

the Zoe uses the same platform, sells at similar price points, and has active thermal management.

wavelet

?? The two cars are not the same size class, not the same platform (Zoé is based on the Clio) or same drivetrain. Different battery layout & supplier, the Zoé doesn’t have DCFC yet. The R&D on them was completely separate.
That said, there was talk of future co-development.

Pushmi-Pullyu

The Zoe isn’t sold in any region with really hot summers… correct me if I’m wrong. Perhaps if Nissan similarly restricted sales of the Leaf, then there wouldn’t be so many complaints about the inadequate cooling.

Also, it may be that the battery cell chemistry Renault uses in the Zoe is more temperature tolerant than the (apparently inferior) chemistry Nissan uses in the Leaf.

I was flabbergasted when Nissan chose to sell the 2010 Leaf in the Phoenix area. That was a disaster entirely foreseeable, yet Nissan chose to go ahead… and it’s still making the same mistake to this day.

Do Not Read Between The Lines

The Zoe’s sold in Spain. It gets very hot in areas there. Hot enough to hurt Prius taxi batteries.

antrik

Active cooling doesn’t have to be liquid. The IONIQ only has active air cooling AIUI, yet it’s being praised as one of the fastest charging EVs available today…

(It’s too young though to say how it affects degradation I guess.)

Derek in TN

Good call… there’s so much about the Ioniq that’s seems to be never discussed. LiPo battery, 5 miles p/kWh at 75mph, 100kW charging on CCS. It deserves a lot of attention.

Mark.ca

It’s hard to care when they only sell 20 a month in US.

DerekH

ha… fair enough.

arne-nl

Many people here crying foul. But users should not care if it has liquid cooling or not. Air cooling done properly is just as good. Or even better: it is simpler and lighter and cheaper. Cannot leak.

Actually, users shouldn’t need to care if it has any cooling at all. They should only care about battery degradation and fast charging ability. How the manufacturer achieves that is not important. If there is a battery chemistry which can stand high temps and low temps without degradation and without limiting fast charging abilities, then why add cooling? It goes against the KISS principle.

Chris Hansen

Southern spaniards disagree.

trackdaze

A good point, well made

Boomer

The problem is that the cooling they have now on the Leaf is inadequat.
And unless the aircooling is much better it wil not help a lot.

As people have tested out trips with more tehn one charging stop can be a hassle as it slows down a lot on the second stop.

Also even the manual says you should let the car cool down after driving before plugging it in to charge.

antrik

Active air cooling is easily an order of magnitude more effective than passive cooling only. So experience with current Leaf is absolutely no indication of how well the one with active air cooling will do.

BoltEV (was SparkEV)

Current Leaf doesn’t have cooling. I don’t consider sealed box of batteries as “cooling” anything.

Val

You’re right. How the manufacturers achieve that is not important. As long as they achieve it. Did Nissan achieve that?

antrik

Not in the past — but with active (air) cooling, chances are this one will do much better.

ed

I agree! The article even suggests that the older vehicles are the ones that had problems. Do they not remember that the roadster and early Ss had issues as well.

For all EVs, only a minority of charging is done on fast charges, where the heating issue can exist. (and Phoenix should remember that new battery chemistry did resolve most issues)

I’m pretty sure that the winter losses of the Leaf are less than the Model 3.

Is active climate control nice? Sure.
Is it required? No.

And that can be seen by the sales of Leaf in other countries.

Americans seem more entrenched on specs than reality. After all, a 4k display on a 5 inch screen makes no sense, your eyes just can’t resolve the resolution.

BoltEV (was SparkEV)

Apparently, you haven’t driven a real EV. After you experience no change is driving and charging with proper thermal managed EV, you will think of DCFC slow down and worry of high temp battery degradation as something that only belong in kids’ toys.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Do they not remember that the roadster and early Ss had issues as well.”

No, I certainly do not remember ever reading about any problem related to battery cooling with any Tesla car, including the original Roadster.

Nissan decided to “cheap out” by refusing to install any sort of active cooling in the 2010 Leaf. Nissan continued to resist making any substantial improvements from 2010 to 2018, first claiming premature battery aging was just a calibration problem, and later claiming to have solved the problem with “lizard” battery chemistry.

In both cases, that was an out-and-out lie.

And now Nissan is finally, belatedly, reluctantly putting in a halfway measure of forced-air cooling. Admittedly that’s better than nothing, but it doesn’t fully solve the problem.

Nissan is still trying to take the cheap way out. I guess that’s working for them to some extent, aiming for and capturing much of the bottom end of the market, but the Leaf is more and more coming to be seen as obsolete when compared to newer EVs.

Clive

The cheap always comes out expensive.

Poor Nissan.

wavelet

You’re of course correct.
Problem is that in practical terms, if you want to allow high-rate charging and high performance, you do need to deal with lots of heat, and that’s much harder with air cooling. ICE sports cars have the same issue — if you want to allow near-redline performance for many minutes at a stretch, you need heavy-duty cool;ing.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Air cooling done properly is just as good.”

Absolutely not. Blowing outside air over the exterior of the pack is orders of magnitude less effective than circulating a high heat capacity fluid (like water) thru the interior of a battery pack. Forced-air cooling can’t do much about heat building up in the center of a pack, nor can it cool the pack below ambient air temperature.

Now, if the new Leaf system will, like the Renault Zoe, use air conditioning to lower the temperature of the forced air in certain conditions, then that’s better, but it’s still orders of magnitude less effective in transferring large amounts of heat quickly, and still can’t do much about heat building up in the interior of the pack.

Chris Hansen

/me facepalms hard…

Texas Leaf

This could be good news for people that have older Leafs. The 40 kWh battery pack already has the same form factor as the older and smaller battery packs and should be able to bolt right in to the older Leafs. It should be a lot less complicated to retrofit the older Leafs to the 60 kWh battery pack if the larger battery pack does not have liquid cooling.

paul k

My understanding is that Nissan will not supply higher capacity packs for older Leafs even if they fit. Poor PR and rather shabby treatment of the early adopters I think. Although I am very pleased with my 40kwh Leaf I will be watching how other manufacturers address this issue when replacement time comes around.

Mike

Accidents happen so there is the junkyard. It would be cool if the swap was relatively easy. You could create a cottage industry turning 1st gen Leafs into decent range EVs. These cars tend to be relatively low mileage and an early Leaf with 70% battery capacity is probably pretty cheap. I could image reselling a retro-fitted 40 kWh Leaf with 40,000 miles for 10,000$ or less. Works well for everyone who doesn’t make enough to utilize the tax credit and wants cheap and reliable around-town transportation.

Mark W

Nissan currently charges $8,500 to replace the old 24 kwh battery packs that degrade faster than any other EV batteries that I am aware of. So, this means they basically don’t replace batteries out of warranty.

Rightofthepeople

I think the replacement cost on the 24 kWh pack is $5500 not $8500. Still outrageous IMO but not quite THAT outrageous.

Astros

Sadly, the $8500 price is correct. Nissan raised it in the last year or so.

scott

So glad I totaled my Leaf. Nissan is just horrible. $8500 for a replacement pack? They deserve to go bankrupt.

Andy

Half to a third of that will be cell cost, then there’s the cost of additional materials and labour to turn it into a battery. Then the additional shipping costs. It’s probably not far off $6k to make. A 25-35% markup is not particularly high for an aftermarket part.

scott

Yeah, sure. Makes perfect sense when it was $5500 several years ago. /s

Texas Leaf

The Leaf battery overheating issue is very complicated and not really understood by most people that discuss it. There are many ways to manage battery overheating heating that have been heavily discussed in the Nissan Leaf forums. If you are driving around where the outdoor air temperature is below freezing the Leaf with multiple fast charges on long trips should never experience slow charging do to overheating.

As I have said before, the Leaf battery pack can be cooled by blowing air conditioned cabin air down the service plug opening. Using an ice chest air cooler to pre-cool air going down the service plug opening offers even more battery cooling. Battery overheating is usually not an issue with day to day driving but there are ways to manage battery temperature of the Leaf if needed that are a lot less expensive than spending thousands more for a vehicle with liquid battery cooling.

paul k

I recently threw caution to the winds and took my 40kwh Leaf on a long service run that was going to require a DCFC if I was to make it back home. Temperatures were just below freezing. I fast charged from 14% to 80% in around 30 minutes. The battery temp bar went from around 1/4 to 1/2 way up. After a 50 minute drive back home base the temp hadn’t dropped at all. Now while 1/2 way to top is the “Goldilocks” zone for battery temp I wonder what a second fast charge would have done. Not worried though.

Do Not Read Between The Lines

It’d probably sit at 50*C.
e-NV200 shows the effect of fan cooling on charging: with 22*C ambient Bjorn Nyland found that the battery temperature held at 40*C, instead of 50*C.
So it makes a substantial difference, but it doesn’t completely control it.
And the problem is that driving at higher speeds (as you’re likely to do when driving longer distances) raises the temperature.

The question is whether they can easily improve the fan cooling to make it more effective.

Rolando

The first person who broke the “rapid gate” was Jonathan from Scotland, and he drove around carefully in slippery snowy roads at minus -3C — and he came in last, hours behind his friends in an old Leaf 1.1 and Ioniq because his Leaf 2.0 ( 40 KWh gross) slowed down DC charging to 22KW in freezing ambient.

And driving with 130 kph on the German Autobahn from Munich to Bodensee (a distance of 190km at +25C) was also overheating the battery up to +50C just from driving without any DC charge. So the DC charge (very first of the day) at the destination was running below 20KW. It’s all documented on Youtube ….

Pushmi-Pullyu

Yeah, those who are trying to belittle the Rapidgate problem are woefully uninformed on the issue. It’s not a problem for those who never use public EV chargers, but it’s a serious limitation for those who want to use the Leaf to drive long distances.

Forced-air cooling certainly will help with the Rapidgate problem. But will it fully solve the problem, or just lessen the severity somewhat? Only time and experience will tell. Nissan certainly has proven, over and over, that we can’t believe anything they have to say on the subject, so we’ll have to wait to get actual real-world driving reports.

Texas Leaf

You said it, Johnathan was the FIRST person. We have learned a lot about battery overheating since then I drove about 300 miles YESTERDAY with two fast charges.

Both fast charges were at 43~45 kW. The first fast charge was at about 35 degrees F and the second fast charge was at about 55 degrees F. The battery did get pretty hot after the second charge but was cooling down quickly after that.

I not saying that battery overheating on the Leaf is not a problem. I am saying that with a little knowledge and experience the problem can be managed.

John Doe

As long as it handles cold weather a LOT better then the e-NV200 (which suck btw) most people will have no problem with this where I live.

The cooling system can be good enough, even though it does not use liquid cooling. I find it hard to belive if they don’t manage to manufacture a battery pack that can handle heat.

I just hope we’ll get a good tear down by John Kelly, the professor in the Auto Technology department of Weber State University in Ogden, Utah. He explained it very well, in his Checy Bolt pack-disassembly video. That was quality EV content for sure.
Should give that man more EVs to disassemble 🙂

SJC

With proper heat sinking and air flow the 40 kWh pack would do well.

BoltEV (was SparkEV)

Yeah, sure, blowing 120F+ degree air temperature and even hotter near the asphalt will cook the pack real well done, especially when drawing 40kW+ on hills and charging with 100kW DCFC, or even plugging in at work outside on 110F+ summer day.

SJC

You value your opinion more than others.

Pushmi-Pullyu

But in this case, he’s actually making a point. An exaggerated point, yes, but still a point that’s at least partly if not mostly valid.

BoltEV (was SparkEV)

120F+ air temperature in summer, especially near asphalt, is a fact, not opinion. And the battery cooking in such high temperature, especially with high charge (and regen) and discharge is also a fact.

But blowing hot air will do well for the battery is your unsubstantiated and completely wrong opinion of zero value.

Get Real

Which Rapid-Gate of these cars already disproves.

Prsnep

Don’t knock it till you know the specs of the air cooling system.

David

Nissan has spend 7 years stating their batteries do not have a degradation problem. No one will believe them if they come up with a cheap active thermal management system. If they’re cutting corners, I will have to wait and see how it really performs. Nissan have proven to be untrustworthy on claims of battery life. I won’t believe them until people have used the car extensively over a summer in a hot location and maybe a cold winter too.

Prsnep

Are you suggesting that their current Leaf has battery degradation problem? Proof?

marshall

I think it’s up to nissan to provide that data. Until then, this will always be an issue.

Note, the restriction on fast charging seems to suggest some type of battery issue with heat.

Frankly, it just makes sense to avoid a potential problem, until nissan supplies the data.

Ron

My dad had Ford, Chevy and Toyota in the 70s. I bought only Toyota from the 1980s until my 2011 Leaf. After Chevy Volt proved its mettle, I am the happy owner of one of those when the Leaf deteriorated such that I couldn’t commute in it (3 months too late for battery replacement under warranty).
. In making a car purchase, I will bring money to the transaction. The Nissan dealer will need to bring the proof of quality (impressive warranty counts). Otherwise, being a big believer in “…fool me twice, shame on me!’ my next BEV will have a liquid cooled battery from either the USA gigafactory or LG.

Pushmi-Pullyu

That’s like asking that someone prove the bottom layer of a barrel of rotten apples is also rotten. By now, the burden of proof is on Nissan to prove that they’ve solved the problem which they have mostly ignored for 8+ years.

Nissan has lied over and over in denying that inadequate cooling of the battery pack is even a problem. Given that reality, Nissan just giving us some specs isn’t going to be good enough. It’s going to take some long-term reports from real car owners before we will know if forced-air cooling will fully fix Nissan’s problem with premature battery aging. Either that, or Nissan can submit the new car to a 3rd party testing lab for truly independent testing. I’d bet money they won’t do any such thing.

The issue certainly won’t be settled by arguing about it here, and history shows we have strong reasons for being highly skeptical of any claims by Nissan for fully solving the problem.

Cyclist

My 7 bar 2013 Leaf is just one example. Talk about a city car…

Stephen Hodges

Oooh, I can beat that! a 2011 with 4 bars! 20 miles with range anxiety!

Lawrence

I had a 2018 Leaf for 6 months and in the course of 10k miles, I had lost 12% capacity per LeafSpy and based on on the amount of charge from my charger. I live in SoCal so yes it saw hot summer days.

Could be a defective battery or some other reason, but buyer beware and do your own research.

Will

Bring your sources out

Pushmi-Pullyu

There’s no valid reason to doubt his story. It’s a pretty common one, and there are arid/desert areas in Southern California where heat has been a well documented problem for Leaf owners.

Derek in TN

I sincerely hope that this is all just instrumentation and solved with a BMS update.

Cyclist

Keep hoping

SZ

With the TM3 standard range, Niro and Kona all coming how can Nissan think no active liquid cooling is a good idea. If I were a conspiracy person I would think Nissan wants to kill their EV position.

Kenneth Bokor

This is still a speculative report and not an official announcement by Nissan. I would wait till that occurs before commenting.

Pushmi-Pullyu

True, but it certainly fits in with the repeated delays by Nissan in putting any active cooling system into the Leaf. It fits the pattern quite well.

Bro1999

Another fail by Nissan.
I had a cmax energi with active air cooling…and it still overheated the HV battery very easily in the summer.
#rapidgate will continue. Stupid Nissan.

BoltEV (was SparkEV)

Yup. I hoped Leaf will be a real EV in 2019, but if this is true about new Leaf, turd show continues.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

+100

Do Not Read Between The Lines

Different battery, stuffed in a box in the back, being worked harder.

Mark W
Nissan has been EVs since the 2011 model year. The batteries for the 2011 and 2012 model years were terrible. They made some changes after that so that the batteries were no longer terrible, but were still degrading faster than any other automakers batteries. This is a major consideration in purchasing a used Nissan Leaf. It is one of the reasons that the resale value is so low. I have not heard of degradation being a serious issue with Tesla, GM, or BMW. Those automakers use liquid cooling, right? Some time ago, (a year?) Nissan raised the price of an out of warranty battery replacement of the now small 24kwh battery to $8,5000. Can a small, old technology battery really be costing them more now? Is this how to treat your customers? I have seen nothing from Nissan indicating that their batteries in the 2018 Leaf will degrade at a slower pace than their 2013 batteries degrade. Basically the same technology. Now, Nissan is saying that they are sticking to their air-cooling approach with their 60kwh batteries. Does that AUTOMATICALLY mean that the degradation rates will continue to be the highest? I guess not necessarily. But they are going to… Read more »
Cyclist

I just tell people Leafs have crap batteries and leave it at that.

G2

“The proof of the pudding is in the eating.”
While I’m disappointed Nissan hasn’t gone to a liquid TMS I am willing to see what the results are before dumping on the effort.

BoltEV (was SparkEV)

Good point. Maybe we are jumping the gun too soon. I mean, Nissan can’t be _that_ stupid (can they?)

Pushmi-Pullyu

Historical evidence is that yes, Nissan’s marketing/PR department really is that stupid. If they weren’t, then they never would have let Nissan dealers in the Phoenix area sell the car, nor certain areas of Texas and So. California where it gets and stays over 100° F night and day for at least a few days in a row in most years. In fact, Nissan should have warned anyone buying a Leaf not to keep the car if they were moving to such areas.

Nissan marketing/PR was also stupid enough to claim, in response to early reports about premature battery aging in the Phoenix area, that the problem was just a calibration issue rather than real degradation.

Cyclist

They have only had since 2011 to get it right. They just need more time.

mxs

Amazing how many battery experts/engineers we have on this public forum. So much potential, yet all used to only whip out many ultimate one-liners offering conclusions without any sort of proof … either way,positive or negative.

Bro1999

Don’t need to be an expert to realize liquid cooling>>>>>>air cooling

Pushmi-Pullyu

Not at all amazing to see that there are many people among EV enthusiasts who either have some exposure to engineering principles, or are scientifically literate.

Understanding that for sizable battery packs, liquid cooling systems offer much, much better heat transfer than blowing ambient air (or even refrigerated air) over the outside of the pack… well, you don’t have to be Einstein to understand why.

BoltEV (was SparkEV)

No proof? Why do you think Leaf slows down charging in hot weather and after more than one DCFC session? Why do you think other cars don’t suffer such problem? And let’s not forget the accelerated battery capacity degradation in hot areas. which will be coming for more and more of the world thanks to climate change.

As for engineer, why do you think every application where high heat transfer is needed use liquid? And why do you think all engineers control thermal instead of sealing the battery in a box (other than toys)?

techlover

How unfortunate. Does Nissan really think that saving $1k will change who buys the Leaf?

Quebec 100% EV

Are we talking about a simple fan blowing ambient air from outside the vehicle over the cells or will it be COLD air from the cabin a/c like some other EVs have. That’s a HUGE detail.
This article seems to indicate simple fan (not a/c).

TKJR

I would have purchased this earlier this year if they had the 60kwh battery and liquid cooling. I am so glad it was delayed because I got the Model 3 MR instead. I am living every minute in my car and love playing centipede when I wait for my car to supercharge.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

Though the Leaf was never on my list, it will definitely now stay on my DO NOT PURCHASE list.

ModernMarvelFan

To be fair, a larger battery will generate less heat when charged at the same kW and powering the car at the same kW when compared with a much smaller battery.

Also, it will take longer to degrade due to larger capacity. It may very well lead the degradation to past the existing warranty period with a much larger battery.

Nissan is trying to save money on the design.

Rolando

The battery is 50% larger but chargeable at double speed – so actually even more stress.
Also the motor is stronger in Leaf 2.1 with 149KW instead the short term 110KW before in Leaf 2.0, so quite similar load from a bigger motor on the bigger battery if you floor the pedal.

Mikael

I dont often supercharge. If the pricetag and hitch is there…i might

Francis L

Liquid cooling is just a big patch over a problem : batteries degraded when too hot. But if they can find a battery that don’t have this problem, then not having liquid cooling is cheaper, lighter and easier to maintain. So maybe they now have batteries that only air cooling is enough. But obviously, I understand consumers who don’t want to gamble about this. Time will tell us.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Reports are that Nissan will now be using LG Chem batteries in the new Leafs. Several other auto makers are also using LG Chem EV batteries, including GM in the Bolt EV and the Volt.

GM is using liquid cooling in both the Volt and the Bolt. How could Nissan get away with using only forced-air cooling, and expect to get results as good? There’s no indication that Nissan has superior battery pack engineering. In fact, the evidence seems pretty clear that Nissan’s battery pack engineering is inferior.

Nissan seems pretty dedicated to the principle that low cost is preferable to good engineering. 🙁

BoltEV (was SparkEV)

Wow, Pushy, I am impressed!

Cyclist

Yes, that is why they sold their battery division off. Their batteries were too good.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“…it would likely work similarly to the Nissan e-NV200’s system that kicks in while fast charging.”

Which means what? Following the link didn’t help much. From other comments, my guess is that this means forced-air cooling. That would certainly be an improvement over passive cooling, but it just isn’t good enough to make the new Leaf truly competitive with newer plug-in EVs.

If it turns out to be true that Nissan is going to use nothing better than forced-air cooling for the new 60 kWh Leaf pack, then… Nissan, you are dead to me!
(◣_◢)

Derek in TN

The 30+kWh packs are NMC which ~should~ be even better than the 2015/2016 24kWH chemistry which is arguably pretty damn good without liquid/air cooling. Honestly, I think people have gone a bit overboard with demanding a TMS. If Nissan, LG, Energizer… whoever can nail a magic blend that is Earth temperature tolerant it would be a huge deal for saving cost and complexity not to mention one less thing to break out of warranty.

Cyclist

You have it backwards. If the magic battery is invented, ditch the cooling. They ditched the cooling while waiting for the magic battery.

groingo

Nissan Leaf is definitely off my list, currently own a 2014 Leaf that sits from November till March because of cold weather effect on the battery, not only does it loose 15 to 20 miles range it takes twice and longer to charge and costs over twice as much to charge because of no battery heating or cooling like every other electric, never again Nissan!

Craig Stanford

Nissan Leaf is DOA.

Michael

I had 2013 Leaf it had liquid cooling, (why did I have liquid cooling) ? full charge on home charger 4 hours max and that was from 0, still had all the bars and got 100 to 125 km. . I’m missing the car it did not like getting hit by lighting killed the car. Was looking to get a new Leaf ? But sounds like there are lots of problems.

allan

What you don’t realise is the extra range actually means you’ll need to use fast charge less, if your comparing 40kw and 60kw side by side. So the lack of liquid cooling is negated.