Elon Musk Responds To Claims That Bogus Mass Orders Can Be Placed For Model 3


Elon Musk Tweets

Elon Musk Tweets

Seeking Alpha’s Anton Wahlman claims (in this 6-page article) that he was able to place 20 Model 3 pre-orders on his credit card last week. This led Wahlman to speculate that perhaps the Model 3 reservation figure of ~400,000 is wildly inflated. Wahlman goes so far as to suggest that maybe Tesla only has 115,000 solid Model 3 pre-orders.

“…I had no problem placing deposits for 20 cars myself, and I didn’t encounter any limit, causing me to reasonably assume that I could just have continued – placing 200 or 200,000 refundable deposits – you pick the number.”

As to the 115,000 solid estimate, Mr. Wahlman breaks it down as follows:

“If you assume each of 15,000 Tesla employees booked two, that would mean up to 30,000, so add another 85,000 for those who stood in line that day, for a total of 115,000…But after those 115,000, it gets iffy. There’s just no evidence as to how “real” the rest of the 400,000 number is.”

Tesla CEO Elon Musk didn’t dispute the claim that multiple Model 3 pre-order can be made. Apparently, the system will allow this, but according to Musk, those bogus orders that exceed Tesla 2-per limit will be quickly purged from the system.

Elon Musk Tweet

Elon Musk Tweet

Musk then had the Model 3 pre-order system checked for duplicates and found the following:

Elon Musk Tweet

Elon Musk Tweet

So, bogus orders (orders that exceed Tesla’s pre-set limit of 2) can be placed, but those will be purged from the system.

Therefore given the first hand report from Musk, only ~800 orders have been placed above the limit (based on emails and addresses) – with Anton himself causing 1 in 40 of the transgressions gaming the system, so the actual reservation figure is still ~ 400,000, and not the huge crisis amount that Wahlman alluded to.

Source: Tesla Updates

Categories: Tesla

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84 Comments on "Elon Musk Responds To Claims That Bogus Mass Orders Can Be Placed For Model 3"

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Why should TESLA stop people to pay lend the 1.000 USD or 20×1.000 USD :)??


Read Anton’s fantasy rant on Seeking Alpha…


Boy 0 Boy…Some people have absolutely nothing better to do…A NON REFUNDABLE DEPOSIT POLICY WOULD “FIX” THIS B S…game playing.. Sh!t 0r get 0ff the pot!


Oh look at me! I can use the “inspector” to modify the value for how many Model 3s I can reserve! /s


Oh, you rebel. 😉


I didn’t dare test it out for fear my credit card would be billed for 200 Model S reservations!



Just because you can change what the webpage displays, doesn’t mean the back-end will accept the order.

I can change the webpage displaying my savings account information, and it will show on my screen that I have a billion dollars. But that doesn’t actually change how much money is actually in my account.


Seeking Alpha has turned into Horse Sh*t Garbage.
This guy should be FIRED.


It has ALWAYS been garbage. Anyone can publish articles there.

If you want a laugh, go read the years of terrible articles from John Petersen who endlessly predicted doom for Tesla and great success for his own lead-carbon battery company. Needless to say, it didn’t quite work out that way.

I commented on terrible flaws in his arguments and he had my account banned. The site is filled with pump & dump artists.


I’ve been banned from posting at Seeking Alpha, too. They don’t like it when you point out that Tesla bashing serial liars who keep posting the same B.S. over and over again, even after others have pointed out the factual errors and fallacies in their posts, are actually lying. Seeking Alpha doesn’t care how many lies people like Anton Walhman write in their blog posts, so long as they keep attracting traffic to their website.


seeking alpha’s contributors get paid

“Article Submission Guidelines”

“Exclusive articles are those you submit to our Editorial team for exclusive publication on Seeking Alpha. Contributors earn $35 upon publication plus $10 per 1,000 pageviews (CPM)”

The more bombastic and idiotic the story, the more pageviews, the more profits the author gets.

Profits are only limited by the gullibility of people clicking their stories, not by reality or truth. That is what makes Seeking Alpha one of the worst sources of information on the internet.


Thanks for the insight. It explains a lot about their business model and the content on thei site.

Mutwin Kraus

Yep, sure. Tesla employees give their employer free money to boost those numbers. No one except a short that is under water and wants to manipulate the SP would believe that. And I’m not even sure those people believe the lies they are spouting.

Dead on. There’s plenty to debate about Tesla, but what isn’t debatable is the desperate stupidity of the people who are short on TSLA. People who are pumping the numbers with a credit card purchase are committing fraud. It probably won’t get in the news, but I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised that this guy loses his credit card over this. Sure, he can get another one tomorrow, debt is big business, but I am confident that credit card companies do not want to be involved in stock manipulation and speculation. For one, it’s an abuse of trust, and for two, if Tesla decides that this guy’s actions are willful and fraudulent, there are all kinds of regulatory violations that credit card companies need to avoid. Since this is public knowledge, it would be generous of Tesla Motors to call it an error and move on. If this guy’s really looking for a fight, this is an open-and-shut court case, and if Tesla calls it fraud, one phone call to his credit card company means a world of hurt. My advice to the average John Q. Public is not to screw around with your credit card at all and… Read more »
Vexar said: “People who are pumping the numbers with a credit card purchase are committing fraud. It probably won’t get in the news, but I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised that this guy loses his credit card over this. . . . If this guy’s really looking for a fight, this is an open-and-shut court case, and if Tesla calls it fraud, one phone call to his credit card company means a world of hurt.” You’re delusional and live in a fantasy world. Perhaps you should research the elements required to make out a prima facie case of fraud, before playing prosecuting attorney on the internet. Likewise, if you recall the subprime mortgage crisis that led to global financial meltdown of 2006, the big banks that own/run credit card companies aren’t exactly known for good ethics or high ethical standards. These big banks are most interested in making profits, which come from the fees that they collect from Tesla for each $1000 deposit, and the interest they charge to the credit card holder who made the deposit. It’s Tesla’s responsibility to set up an ordering system that enforces its self-imposed ordering restrictions. The big banks are not going to… Read more »

The argument: “It wasn’t bolted down so it’s not theft.” Doesn’t sway many courts.

I suspect: I wasn’t technically prevented so it’s not fraud won’t go over much better.


You obviously have no legal training. Judges and juries don’t decide cases willy nilly by using their gut feeling to determine liability or guilt, as your comment implies.

It is notoriously difficult to prove fraud in a court of law. In a criminal case the prosecutor would have to prove “beyond a reasonable doubt” that all the elements of fraud as defined by the relevant statute. In a civil case or civil enforcement action by the SEC, the standard of proof would be a “preponderance of the evidence,” which is a lower standard. The courts are bound by the legal doctrine of Stari Decisis to follow the precedents set by higher appellate courts in prior decisions, so that cases with similar facts will yield similar and predictable outcomes. The case law regarding fraud is well established, and the facts that are required to prove fraud must be present for Anton Wahlman to be found guilty/liable.


rather than courts, one might consider editing his wiki page – “also known as the guy that hates Tesla So Much that he placed 20 orders (against mfg guidance) and then published an article about it to gain income from ‘cliks’.”



sven said:

“You obviously have no legal training… It is notoriously difficult to prove fraud in a court of law.”

Hmmm, well sven, I’m guessing you’re not exactly a legal expert, either.

I’m no lawyer, and my guess is this probably doesn’t rise to the level of fraud, since Tesla’s disclaimer states the reservation does not constitute a promise on the part of Tesla.

However, common sense says that anyone who publicly posts “This proves that I was able to make reservations to buy something when I had absolutely no intention of doing so”, in an article aimed at stock investors, would be going a very long way to providing material evidence of an attempt at stock manipulation.

And I hope very much that Wahlman gets his hide nailed to the door for pulling that. It’s bad enough that these bashers are able to post lie after lie after lie about a company without getting into legal troubles; deliberate stock manipulation ought to be a crime, and so far as I know, it is.


Well, he don’t have to believe it himself, he just want you to believe his B.S. so he can cash in.
Trader game any system, any time.
They are useless c..p


Seriously. Do they think Tesla also paid the people that camped out over night at their stores? If so, why haven’t I got my check?

(Then again, Elon did say he was mailing out a token gift of appreciation.)


Yes. Tell us what kind of bribe he sent you guys, when you get it. 😉

no comment

i think that it is much more likely that tesla investors, and not tesla employess, would help juice the number of “pre-orders”.

…as sven cautioned, make sure that you actually know what you are writing about before trying to present yourselves as modern day “clarence darrows” in your comments.


Is it more likely that Tesla investors, meaning those long in Tesla, are trying to manipulate the system by pre-ordering a model 3
is it more likely that people invested in Tesla actually believe in Tesla and want to buy a Model 3?

It’s an easy answer.

European point of view

Elon Musk: Demand for Tesla’s home battery is ‘crazy off the hook’

6 May 2015 .

BTW .Where does Tesla stand now with this bold assertion ?


They are very, very supply constrained. I know that some Powerwalls are in operation in Australia and I think also New Zealand, however I do not know why there. This is what the Gigafactory is building now. Well, the PowerPacks for sure.


We’ll find out when Tesla releases the 2.0 Home Powerwall version, soon.

Maybe you noticed there is no configuration page for orders yet?

The industrial versons seem to be selling fine.


According to GTM, they will install more energy storage through SolarCity than the entire 2015 US energy storage market. That’s one customer in one country.


Huh? Are you making this stuff up? What’s GTM?

SolarCity said that it will not be offering or installing the 6.4 kWh (formerly 7kWh) Powerwall, because it doesn’t make financial sense due to Net Zero metering. SolarCity said that it will be offering and installing only the 10 kWh Powerwall, which Tesla recently abandoned and discontinued. So SolarCity won’t be installing any Powerwalls.

Are you talking Tesla Powerpacks? Last week, Tesla released the pricing for the Powerpacks, and their cost skyrocketed from what Tesla said they would cost when they were revealed just one year ago. The Powerpacks now cost a whopping $810 per kWh, and not the $250 per kWh that Tesla originally said they would cost. Is GTM’s estimate of U.S. demand based on the $250/kWh price or the new $810/kWh price?

New Powerpack pricing:

SolarCity says it won’t sell the 7kWh Powerwall:


GTM = Greentechmedia




I suspect that after they got 400,000 Model 3 orders they decided to crank up the price of the Tesla Storage batteries. If people want to buy an expensive battery, they’ll sell you one for a high price . . . but most of their cells are now reserved for building Model S, Model X, and Model 3 cars!


That’s what it looks like to me, too. Did Tesla announce that surprisingly high price for PowerPacks only after they got nearly 400,000 reservations for the Model ≡?

If so, then it’s hardly surprising they priced the PowerPack so high that they’ll get few takers. Tesla is gonna need every Gigafactory cell it can get for its Model ≡’s!

But sven is absolutely convinced that somewhere, somehow, Tesla is committing fraud with its financial statements, so he’ll continue to bash Tesla and continue to parrot short-seller conspiracy theories he’s read. No doubt sven finds it endlessly frustrating that the SEC doesn’t appear to agree with his assessment of the accuracy of Tesla Motors’ financial statements.


That one was bogus. They didn’t take deposits. Just clicks on a website expressing interest.

I maintain they did that just to assuage investors that the Gigafactory was not a white elephant. Now that they have 400,000 Model 3 reservations, those battery sales are just a back burner project.


I hope that Tesla make these people pay for the inconvenience. One way is to make sure that these people actually pay the money to the credit card company. So in the case of this man who reserved 20 cars He should pay 20*$1000=$20,000.

It is not an amount of money that the average person has as disposable income to pay in a period of 6 weeks or so. On the other hand if it was an organization then it it will not hurt them to pay that money and get it back or most of it. And in this case there will be a data base of the speculates that want to take down Tesla.


Huh? How the heck can Tesla “make sure that these people actually pay the money to the credit card company”? You do realize that with a credit card you can just make minimum payments and pay interest on the outstanding balance. Even the almighty Elon cannot force a credit card company to violate the contract (aka credit card agreement) it has with its cardholders that allows the cardholder to pay over time, and demand immediate payment of the full balance. It’s time to step out of the Tesla Reality Distortion Field. That Tesla Kool-Aid is powerful stuff. 😉


That said, I Do look forward to Anton’s next article decrying ‘How Long’ it took for his 20 deposits to be removed from his account.


Ha! – most likely.

Willie McKemie

Wahlman has very long string of Tesla-negative Seeking Alpha articles. Most cite implausible threats to Tesla. Quite a few are on “Tesla-killing” vehicles from other manufacturers. Anton is likely a paid agent provocateur for big oil and/or big auto.


With this level of public “Internet Fail”, it would be nice if everyone who’s read Anton’s fantasy anti-Tesla essays, just stopped and said;

“Twenty Points Deducted from Slytherin…”

…and walked away.


His Tesla-killers have ironically included diesels, because, you know they don’t cost much per mile to run. Didn’t quite work out as expected. 😉

I don’t mind trying to figure it what the actually rate is, but to go from “I can lend Tesla $20k” to “Lots of people are lending Tesla $20k” is a stretch.

Sure, some people might just have boosted, and there was at least one case posted by somebody on TMC who ended up with a duplicate charge, but:
– I know that I have a very real reservation
– I know a young man who knows me mentioned the Model 3 reveal to me the week before
– on related forums that many posters have been looking forward to Model 3 for years and it’s part of what has driven Tesla’s sales.
– Given Model S sales of 50k, BMW 3 sales of 500k/year, and BMW 5 series sales of 350k/year a high level of interest in the Model 3 is not at all surprising.

In my opinion, there question is not “how many of the reservations are real?”, but “What will the level of demand be beyond the reservations?”


This man should try and grow a personality and get a life. What an idiot.


Does this guy not care about his credibility when he keeps getting shown up on these anti-Tesla stories?
He must not want to be taken seriously, or he must be working for anti-Tesla interest.


Clearly he does not care. Possibly “Anton Walhman” is just a pseudonym he writes under?

But at any rate, at a penny-a-click on his Seeking Alpha blog posts, he obviously doesn’t care that his reputation is no longer in the gutter… but now down in the sewer.




Elon Musk said: “System scan detected only 0.2% of orders with same email and physical address. Those have been purged.”

I’m no rocket scientist like Elon, but if Tesla really wants to detect bogus mass orders, shouldn’t Tesla also be checking for orders with the same name and physical address, but different email address? Otherwise, it’s premature to state that only 0.2% of orders (~800 orders) were bogus mass orders. It sounds to me like Tesla has some more purging to do.

Mark B Spiegel

Yeah, that’s a nice “Venn diagram” Musk selectively drew. How about just the same CREDIT CARD? Or ONLY the same email address or same physical address without requiring BOTH to be the same?

P.S. It’s interesting how the Teslarians are completely unbothered by Musk’s original lie regarding the ability to do this at all. Oh, I know what you’re thinking: “Sure he may lie sometimes, but he’s OUR liar.” Well that always works out well in investing!



That may be true to some amount, maybe it is really 1.5k deps or 2.0k order that should not be taken. But 115k actually signed up in person at the 200 stores, so the 400k total number is a expected number.

What is this guy saying?that 115k signed up live and then no real people signed up online & there was 285k fake online orders?

If the deps reported was like 2 million, then I think you could suggest something might be happening, common sense says the 2.5:1 ratio is good

Plus whatever the number of orders over 2 is by people, that number not likely to be stock fraud, but probably people looking to get early cars and flip for profit.


hey, mark, aka Seeking Alpha’s “logical thought” how is your Tesla short coming? didnt you start shorting it below $100/share?


Oh, lookee — one serial Tesla basher is giving a positive response to another’s comment here. What fun. Like two ivory poachers having a discussion about the best place to sell elephant tusks during a meeting of the Partnership to Save Africa’s Elephants.


I don’t recall any statement to have effect, but then I don’t follow every last word Musk says/writes.

At $1k/reservation, the odds of fraud are quite small – reserving 10, 20, 30, etc., is one hell of an investment with no ROI.


Haters got to hate.


When when there is noting tangible to hate, make it up. 😉


There there is noting wrong with your grammar or spelling. 😉


A perfect example.

Nothing relevant to hate– creates issues out of non-issues.

Thanks. 🙂


Anon is a GM booster. What else do you expect?



Mary and her paid cronies be soooo happy nao.



Evnow hit the nail on the head. He’s got you pegged: GM fanboy! 😉


Meant to say Anton is a GM booster.

This connection is often overlooked. Why is a GM booster constantly writing bad things about Tesla ?


That Wahlman guy wrote a 6 page article about a stupid paranoid conspiracy theory? What an idiot.


Personally, I think JK Rowling is much better at fiction…


Not idiot. They get paid for each page. More padding means more money.

Chris O

I don’t see the problem with Mr. Wahlman’s analysis. Seeking Alpha= Seeking lies&manipulation as everybody with half a brain understands so it seems like the right sort of story for this disreputable venue.

I mean it’s not like anybody takes anything posted on seeking alpha too seriously right?

One would hope not, but like they say: “a fool and his money are easily parted” and that’s where websites like Seeking Alpha come in.


Exactly, that place is a den of snakes.

If you want a laugh, go read the years of terrible articles from John Petersen who endlessly predicted doom for Tesla and great success for his own lead-carbon battery company.


At this point, I don’t know why Tesla even bothers with “bogus” orders. At ~400K, even half that number would be beyond their ability to make in first year or more. Just say there were some bogus orders but not enough to warrant concern, and use the interest free loan from idiots to speed up production.


This is what I’d say.

“Thank you for bringing this to our attention. It seems many people are so enthused about Tesla that they’re willing to give us more money by gaming the system. While we discourage such actions and take appropriate measures to avoid them in the future, we are humbled by your enthusiasm and will gladly use the extra deposits.”


I see a bright future for you in Corporate Public Relations. 🙂


Just make the processing time to refund duplicate orders take several billing cycles should discourage this type of action. Those people will then have to carry the amount ($20,000 for the seekingalpha.com guy) for an unknown number of months and paying interest to their CC company.



Get Real

LOL. Seeking Liars d-bags Spiegel, Wahlman, Niedermeyer, susprised tftf didn’t chime in but sven sure did!

Anyways, Ship of Fools grasping at straws and getting desperate as their short positions keep getting more and more untenable.


I just wish they wouldn’t keep pulling down their ‘shorts’ and exposing themselves to ridicule.


“Tesla envy happens when other people have, ahem, long positions and yours is too short.” — Jim Whitehead

(Another Seeking Alpha post. Tesla “longs” post there, too!)


You know me, I never like to miss a good party! 😀


Easy, now – there’s no need for that. They make some good points, occasionally. Tesla Motors has screwed up on multiple occasions, regardless of whether the errors were justified.

This is silly. Tesla built a webpage with the purpose of quickly accepting as many reservations as possible in as short of time as possible without crashing. It was wildly successful. To meet that goal, they created a webpage with minimal real-time validation, that was designed to limit the number of orders actual consumers ordered. As in real people who actually put in reservations and weren’t trying to actively circumvent the system. Validation of orders to weed out saboteurs is easily handled through batch processing long after the order is accepted through the website. There is no reason to waste the overhead of doing this in real-time at the time of the order, as it is very simple to purge any intentional saboteurs or fraudulent transactions hours or even days after any may have been entered. This is a classic web-to-enterprise programming technique. The web interface is light for real-time performance, and the actual order processing and order validation is executed over entire batches of orders asynchronously on the back end. This is done as a batch process, separately from the web transaction itself. Anybody who has put an order into a website, and then gotten an email hours later… Read more »

Oh, there you go, providing actual facts to debunk the ravings of a serial Tesla basher.

Spoil sport! 😉


Thank you.


Input for InsideEVs editors:
I don’t consider this EV-related news.

The reservations are just used to get a place in line, and not to actually initiate production of a specific car, so there was no reason for Tesla to rush and put any serious effort into filtering/de-duping SW at this point in time. If someone wants to give Tesla a loan, why not?


Anton is an idiot.

Seeking Alpha is not junk, any more than IEV’s is, if that opinion were based solely upon the purposefully uninformed content of a small group of commenters.


“Wahlman goes so far as to suggest that maybe Tesla only has 115,000 solid Model 3 pre-orders.”


I no longer regard serial Tesla bashers as an actual threat to Tesla’s growth. I now regard reading their posts as a spectator sport, watching them twist in the wind while desperately trying to invent ever more Ludicrous™ B.S. that nobody in his right mind would ever believe.

“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” — Albert Einstein

But hey, Anton, if you want to give Tesla some of your money, even if it’s only a short-term loan, then please do continue. You do realize that the bank will pay Tesla interest on that deposit, even if you cancel it the next day?

Go Tesla!

Martin Winlow

Here’s the thing; If Mr Musk said he has XXXX number of reservations for the 3, I would believe him.

If the CEO of any other major car maker (bar Carlos Ghosn) said the same, I’d laugh in their face (especially VW’s)!


this yahoo guy is a fracking troll and hater


Anton Wahlman is either on oil & gas payroll, or just milking the Seeking Alpha revenue per click by publishing provacative articles to entice Tesla supporters to respond. I dont bother reading anything he writes now.

Oscar Ogorki

Trainwreck in progress. Just watch. Musk has got as much of a chance of cranking out 500,000 vehicles in 2018 as SpaceX has of chance of “landing on Mars” in the same year – essentially zero.