Are Electric Pickup Trucks Really The Future? Video

FEB 2 2019 BY MARK KANE 131

Is the electric pickup truck possible now or do we need to wait another 10 years?

The Fast Lane Truck recently discussed all-electric pickup trucks, wondering whether an electric truck like the Rivian R1T is the future or not. The video has a curious title: Are Electric Trucks The Future? No, You’re Wrong!

The pickup truck is a hot segment in the U.S. and EVs would bring superior driving experience, especially off-road, as well as high towing capability. That’s in theory, because it all depends on batteries, which needs to be huge to support long-range driving under load. The bigger the pack, the higher the price.

As you can see in the video, skeptics have strong arguments and doubts. What really matters is that at least one of these highly capable electric trucks launches so we can all see the performance in the real world.

Truck models/companies discussed:

Rivian R1T – Visit out Rivian Truck Forum here

Tesla Truck Render – Talk Tesla pickups here in our Forum

Atlis XT

 

Bollinger B1

Workhorse W 15

 

Categories: Ford, Rivian, Tesla, Trucks, Videos

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131 Comments on "Are Electric Pickup Trucks Really The Future? Video"

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Clearly they are the future; when they will displace ICE trucks in any scale is a matter of economics.
Batteries are still way to expensive, but cost will continue to fall. SInce most are still 2+yrs out maybe they have it timed right.
I think there is still room for a REx play. An all-electric platform with moderate battery capacity and a secondary source of energy. In this model, a fuel cell would prevent the need for complex exhaust (evaporator, filter, catalytic converter, muffler and pipes to divert exhaust away from doors/windows. A FC on the other hand, can output exhaust (water/heat) directly without any of this complication.
And when batteries are clearly more economical, simply don’t offer the REx any more as there is plenty of space for additional batteries.

That’s basically the W15.

The thing is, fuel cells are more expensive than the batteries. So that doesn’t really help.

Have you placed a reservation for a Nikola semi truck yet? They are precisely what you describe.

I imagine he would like a real vehicle, not a fantasy from a sham company like Nikola.

Wow, I can’t imagine a fuel cell system holding together very well in the rugged conditions of a truck. They go off-road, there’s more vibration, structural strains from towing. that is terrible for maintaining a seal on all those pipes carrying the world’s smallest molecules. Gasoline and diesel are more complex, larger, liquid molecules that can be far more easily contained. However, if someone wanted to make a hydrogen fuel cell -powered vehicle, perhaps the Germans will enter the fray of a pick-up, maybe even Daimler. They could choose a name suggesting off-road and rugged situations, like deer or mountains. Such a name already exists in German and even world history. Although originally named for a cunning field marshal, “deer mountain” translates to a name already associated with a hydrogen-based vehicle: Hindinburg.

It continues to amaze me that so many EV advocates seem to think there is a future for fuel cell vehicles. Perhaps there is, but only if they carry an onboard reformer so they can use a fuel which is far more practical, and far less expensive or energy wasting, than compressed hydrogen.

P.S. — The correct spelling is Hindenburg.

OMG, really, don’t think Electric Pick-up are real? Poor lost souls. The only real valid player right now is Rivian, as both of their pre-production vehicles are outstanding. They just have to spin up some serious production numbers. To agree with them (“no you are wrong”): Atlis is a joke – $1M in funding, with only computer renderings. Nothing else. Please…… Bollinger, been building a couple of prototypes for 2 years. No hint at production numbers and financials. Really, how mass-market will this be adopted? No much unless commercial work fleets grab this or the military. Workhorse is not even close to anything for production other than their drone and their funding is not much better. Strike off the list. To disagree with them (“no you are wrong”): Rivian – is a real player with good financials, supply chain in tact and I’m guessing by now a good number of reservations. Their 2 pre-productions look like they are ready to go. Just need to hear their production numbers which I think will be very limited for the first few years, so that won’t make them any dominant player just yet. Tesla Semi – it’s very real, and selling massively in… Read more »
This is wrong! Tesla just has to demonstrate a limited release high end truck to trash Ford’s economics. Tesla will design and release what Ford couldn’t and force Ford’s hand because people will just stop buying their ICE junk holding off. Musk has said the two capacity on the pick up will be 300,000 lbs- that is 14.3x tge top F450 which is 90K. It will surely get from 0-60 about 2x as fast and Musk has indicated 4 wheel steer for rotate in place. I can see 400-600 mile range. If it can get access to the mega charger it will charge super quick. Yes it will be 150k like a Model X but they could sell easily 100k a year at that rate. And it would be great value relative to more than half of Ford’s line up. Musk has said he is more eager for this vehicle than any other- because he know this is a hole in one knock out blow that can lay arrogant stupid Ford out with. This is the same Ford that wants its employees to take hits so it can pay parasite ‘owner’ 6% dividends. There is no greater return on effort… Read more »

Ford’s massive market share isn’t due to F450’s. It is from their F150’s and F250’s.

The reality is that the “truck” market isn’t a monolithic single market. It is really a wide variety of different trucks with different audiences. Just like EV’s have been challenging one passenger car ICE segment at a time, with different options from different car makers, trucks will work the same way. It will take a number of different truck models before EV’s/PHEV’s will be able to penetrate the truck segment(s).

Um… their Semi truck is close to $150k, and the Model X starts off at $80k. Tesla has already demonstrated they can improve the economics of their vehicle through this year’s price reduction. Nix is right about Ford’s revenue focus. What Tesla will likely do is collapse the spread of Ford by having a single vehicle that competes with several Ford trucks. Ford, as you point out, sells based on size and mass, but that all boils down to cargo and towing capacity. What Tesla will do is introduce their one truck that can play in the F150 up to perhaps the F350 range. What makes the F450 distinct isn’t base towing or horsepower and torque. It’s clear that Tesla will easily outclass the 450 on torque. There are unique engineering challenges associated with the F450 that involve braking systems, suspension, and torsional reinforcement on the chassis. In other words, the ICE engine of the F450 is only a small part of what makes the F450 effective in its function and duty. I can see Tesla coming in at $70k for a base truck, with the spartan interior of the Model 3 and a single screen. The challenge for Tesla… Read more »

You do realize what the forces at play are at 300k? Unless you have Titanic size gears or train strength those are only theoretical numbers. NOT what the metal can withstand in a puny truck. Even a solid four inch titanium rods at 300k of torque will twist.

Don’t write off Workhorse yet. They are supposed to start delivering trucks to fleet customers just a few months from now during the summer.

Rivian has many good things going for it, but a possible spoiler is the high price for the initial trucks, which will be the ones with the longest range. AFAIK that price has not been announced yet and we all know 180kWh batteries are not cheap.

I hope Workhorse can put the W-15 into production, but it has already been delayed due to lack of funding. Last I read, Workhorse was sending its prototype on a tour of the Northeast U.S. to raise funds.

I hope Kenneth was wrong to say we should write off Workhorse, but he may well prove to be right. At best, it’s going to be a low-volume production, nothing like what Rivian is aiming for, let alone Tesla!

The day any of the three, Tesla, Rivian, Bollinger comes out with their pickup truck will be the beginning of the end of ICE pickup truck. People will be marveled by the performance and all naysayers like these guys will eat their words.

Oh, I don’t know. There will certainly be takers of all electric or PHEV pickups (Rivian and Workhorse respectively), particularly among fleet owners. I certainly am hoping to get one at some point. But pickup truck owners, even here in California, tend to be more conservatively minded and have a stubborn, “stuck in their ways” mindset that is notoriously hard to break, even with all the demonstrations and test drives in the world. Remember, the “rolling coal” crowd and Tesla ICErs tend to be pickup truck owners. I have a hard time seeing those guys buying electric pickup trucks. And even if they represent a small population of truck owners, most other truck owners are not that far from that mindset. Most of them probably just grumble under their breath something like “$%@!ing electric cars! Taking up perfectly good parking spots with their $%&!ing chargers!” Time will change that mindset…but it will take awhile. I also don’t think it’s an age thing. I’ve seen plenty of young 20’s and 30’s dudes in these pickups with these types of attitudes. My job takes me out into the boonies quite often and I see them all the time.
The so called rolling coal crowd attitude you are describing is a very small, albeit vocal minority of pickup truck owners IMO. I work in the Deep South, in a very conservative industry (basic materials). Almost everyone I work with drives a big honkin 4WD pickup. Over the last few months they have each taken turns riding in my Model 3. They were not only open to the idea of EVs before taking the ride with me, after the ride they were absolutely blown away. To say they were amazed would be an understatement, and several of them (not joking) said they were going home to talk to their wives about making this car their next purchase. I say all this to say, don’t write off the pickup truck crowd. Most are far more open to change than you might imagine, it just takes someone they know and trust (ie not a car dealership or company) to show them the way. And this can be a lesson for all of us when it comes to viewing “the other side” through a particular lense. Just because a small percentage of truck drivers says and does nasty things, don’t apply that behavior… Read more »

I agree and I think the fact that 6 cylinder “EcoBoost” engines sell very well in Ford’s line up shows that many truck owners are open to the best technology for giving them the performance they want. That being said there are some hard core ICErs (just go over to The Truth About Cars to find them) that will never willingly give up their ICE vehicles.

They’re likely to be similar to today’s “classic car” enthusiasts. I’m ok with a relatively small population of ICE cars on the roads since I think they’ll have some limited utility in certain, mostly remote, environments.

Exactly. The majority of consumer pickup purchases will move to EV in a heartbeat if the specs/price/availability is there.

The issue is it needs to be there, and currently it’s not. The Rivian is the closest, but it’s got its own limitations, not least the price.

Agreed 100%. We were all dumb kids once and did stupid things. The most impactful thing you can do is be compassionate/understanding and show them what they are missing out on. It’s a smart phone vs flip phone technology proposition. Remember when so called experts said old people would never get those new fangled smart phones… yeah that didn’t take long.

That’s a pretty good point. Heck, I remember when I was in college that I would occasionally chat online with my grandmother! My own parents never really got into that (not for lack of trying though).

I have personally experienced what you discuss and, yes, absent the media echo chambers, I would completely agree with you. However, I have also personally experienced when, once these same folks go back to their families, “social circles” (for want of a better term), and media outlets, most everything you just experienced with them flies out the proverbial window. I’m not at all arguing that they cannot change. I’m just trying to emphasize that it will take time, patience, and persistence to win them over. At some point, you’ll greet them again only to find some of that skepticism returns and you’ll have to rehash everything again. But each time you patiently go through your own personal EV experiences with them and give them their own rides or test drives, that seed you’ve planted in their minds will slowly grow. Unfortunately, my job does not allow me to greet these same folks on a regular basis, otherwise I would do my part to slowly change minds. I do, however, plant those “seeds” where I can in the hopes others will help those seeds go. As to the whole left/right dipole, I largely view that as an illusion created by media,… Read more »

Well said! We certainly shouldn’t dismiss all pickup drivers as coal-rolling EV haters. You’re absolutely correct to say if any company offers a well-designed and well-built EV pickup, it will find plenty of buyers.

Ron Swanson's Mustache

This is a great post.

The whole “EVs are only for the blue tribe” attitude is literally the worst thing about EV culture, and the main driver behind things like coal rolling.

It’s a despicable form of toxic tribalism.

Yes, the social factors will have a huge influence on E-truck adoption in the US, even more so than it does for E-cars.

The number of people in the US who buy a full size pickup truck now when a sedan or hatchback would serve their needs is staggering. These are people who simply want a big vehicle, cost be damned, or have convinced themselves that they must have towing or offroading capability, even though they’ve never needed once in the prior decade. Selling that crowd on an electric truck will be a very tough job.

I would expect the initial sales of E-trucks (barring some huge government incentive) to be almost entirely fleets. As I keep pointing out here, fleet managers are much more likely to select vehicles based on what their spreadsheet says about TCO and not their emotions.

Electric busses are looking great from a TCO perspective. Being that an F150 burns more gas per mile than a small car, value in fuel cost savings will be offset in fewer miles. Also, towing uphill for an EV is so blissful compared to ICE. Plenty of room for adequate batteries in a consumer truck (semis are a little questionable). MSRPs of trucks are already far more substantial than family sedans… I think the future looks… Electric

Disagreed. Rivian are going to be sold almost exclusively to consumers. The TCO is no where near compared to the standard fleet pickup.

When prices come down Fleets will certainly pick up a lot of EV pickups, but I also think a lot of private owners will too.

The reality of the situation is Rivian is at least double the price of an ICE truck to a fleet owner. $30k worth of fuel and maintenance gets you an awful long way.

lots of opportunity for lease returns at a reasonable price. My current EV was less than 50% of list at 3 yrs and 16K miles.

Sorry, there are two groups – (1) Private owners who just love driving trucks (2) Business owners who make money with their trucks.

Converting group 1 is hard, they love the noise, the feel of their trucks. An electric is too tame to drive no matter how fast.

Group 2 however, converts as soon as their old truck needs major repair or they have to expand the fleet truck they use. They don’t care about looks, feel, or noise – They care about MONEY and if the electric trucks are cheaper to run and/or allow them to use their electric tools without expensive generator then they forget the gas/diesel trucks even existed.

Very true on group 2. They will buy on capabilities, the key is going to be producing a truck that can tow long enough distances. That simply comes down to battery cost.
I worked for an employer and their truck choice came down to towing capacity. Ford won because they rated for enough time o do the job they required.

This decision will be the same for most consumers too. I bought my Ford because of the payload and price. My neighbour bought his Ram because of the towing capacity and the price. Both of us are private users.

Very short sighted. There’s also a group 3, which a significant number of consumer truck owners are likely to fall into – Private owners that drive trucks because they need the capacity.

Group 3 will convert when there’s an EV they like, that is capable of what they want to do (pull that 5th wheel, toy hauler, truck camper, their 4 dogs/bikes etc).

The group 1 users you’re talking about are a pretty small minority IMO.

Yes, outside of the truck world there’s a significant number of people that hate trucks, we get it. But your stereotyping is no different to those that claim all luxury sedan owners are tailgaters and speeders and all EV owners are green hippies.

Mostly agree with small comments.

While Ram doesn’t have a pure EV ready like you said, their sister company Jeep has a PHEV coming perhaps as soon as next year https://insideevs.com/jeep-wrangler-phev-production-inches-forward/

If it is successful, they could make a pickup variant of it.

I see Bollinger as a Defender or classic G-Class category of vehicle, with the portal axles and locking axles being 85% pure offroad focused, but with usable on-road capabilities. I would expect sales to be similarly small as Defender or classic G-Class/Puch sales.

I think you are dead-on with Ford. They will be like Honda and Toyota and try to hold onto their ICE truck leading sales position to the bitter end.

👏👏👏👏👏

Thanks for that excellent summary of the field, Kenneth. I hope Workhorse can raise the funds it needs to put the W-15 into production, but you may well be right to say it’s not a serious contender. It’s certainly not aiming for high-volume production, but then neither is Bollinger. So far as I know, the only EV startup outside China with serious potential for high-volume production in the very near future, is Rivian.

Well said. I only see three contenders also.
The real test will come by 2025 to see which one of the big three automakers will be left standing.
I say this because if Toyota decides to enter the 3/4 ton to 1 ton truck market with a diesel and all electric vehicle truck along with the Germans I think one of the big three will fold.
It’ll certainly be an all out brawl.
This is a case where the big three are all standing on one leg and it won’t take much knock that peg from under them seeing they don’t want to produce sedans.
This is a cautionary tale of producing crap and having to rely on one product line.

To me, the very fact that full size pickups are the highest selling vehicle in the entire United States vehicle market would lend itself to EV pickups being a HUGE market. And it’s boggling to me that any of the Big 3 would think that they’ll be fine forever doing nothing different.

It’s only a big market in the US — nowhere else. The US is only 20% or less of the global vehicle market and shrinking…..better money spent on crossovers which are truly global.

Fyi Canada is also very big truck market..

And Australia

Full size pickus are a big market in US,Canada, and Mexico. Compact pickups are big market outside Europe-North America.

Full size pickups are over 70% of global profits for GM,Ford,and FCA. Electrifying full size pickups will for Detroit to electrify or go bankrupt.

Yes… but there’s the issue of timing and perceptions. Ford, GM, and FCA are going to play a waiting game and try to delay electrification as long as possible. Selling ICEVs in the short run is easy money and supports their dealers with service revenue, so they’ll be in no rush to abandon that model.

Which reminds me — we keep talking here about the ramifications of electrification, like auto parts stores closing, parts suppliers closing or having to adapt to other manufacturing needs, etc. Dealers are headed for an implosion when service revenue tapers from today’s value to a tiny percentage of it.

Simply false. All vehicles are dramatically reducing service requirements (annual oil changes, etc) and becoming more reliable due to better engineering. EVs are at worst continuing to that trend. All cars need alignments, cabin air filters, windshield wipers, tires, visual inspections, rock chip repairs, collision repairs, recalls, etc. Dealerships will sell whatever manufacturers put on their lots and people are willing to buy.

@Aaron
What is the basis for your statement?
Just go to your local ICE dealer and ask for the recommended maintenance schedule and fees.
My ICE has no issues but apparently needs a Maintenance II package at $200 and a Fluid Flush at $1500. Oh it’s a GM, not a BMW.
My BEVs – nada. Tires and brakes hardly worn.

Here is your GM “maintenance II package”:

1) Inspect suspension and steering components;
2) Inspect the engine cooling system;
3) Inspect the wiper blades;
4) Inspect restraint system components;
5) Lubricate body components;
6) Inspect the throttle system;

Don’t worry, dealerships will soon fabricate a BS list of visual inspections to include EV drivers in this $200 scam for suckers too. I mean, change the word “engine” in #2 to “motor” and you pretty much got it. Everything in that list applies to EVs!

They already are. Hyundai charge the same (minus the cost of an oil change) for their EVs.

As we’re talking about trucks the F150 doesn’t need anything but an oil change every 10k miles and engine/cabin filters every so often, up to 100k miles. Tesla’s require coolant changes sooner than that, and all cars should be inspected far more regulalry than that too (steering/brakes/tyre rotation/suspension etc.

“To me, the very fact that full size pickups are the highest selling vehicle in the entire United States vehicle market”, tells me Americans on the whole are selfish assholes without a lick of logic or critical thinking skills, buying only what their corporate and media masters tell them.

I have a pickup, I use it for hauling things home for when I do projects..and needs big things like drywall, plywood, lumber, etc, plus it’s nice having 4 wheel drive in the winter. I guess I bought the truck because of my corporate masters….idiot.

Things you could easily do even with a small car with a hitch and a trailer.
And some good winter tires would easily replace 4-wheel drive.

I guess you could. Although fitting a double bed in the back of a hatchback for a 6’2″ person would be tricky.

I’d check the towing and payload capacity of the small car you’re talking about too. Most cars have 2-300kg of payload, most pickups have 600-900kg of payload. I have to say though, I do love watching people with small cars try and load them with their purchases at Ikea/DIY store! 😀

Most sedan owners could do everything they do in their cars in a small 3 door hatch, so why don’t we start complaining about their inefficient, massive vehicles as well? Your argument is a race to the bottom.

Basically people have different requirements and wants. Most people don’t have the space for multiple vehicles and multiple trailers (or the hassle of maintaining and insuring them), so people buy vehicles bigger than they need for day to day use, and then use them day to day. Most of those “posers” with their clean trucks probably do something with them at least several times a year.

And good winter tyres and 4 wheel drive (and higher ground clearance) trumps a 2wd with winter tyres when out in the sticks, with deep snow.

Statistical outlier, actually uses truck.
The rest are Posers.

@Derek
That puts you in the group that NEEDS a pickup truck.
I’m not in Texas, in NorCal. Here the suburbs are full of clean, shiny pickups driven by males and females always with their bed empty. They are usually seen at the local schools, restaurants and Costco.
These suburban cowboys probably gave rise to the perception that you find to be idiotic.

Hell there’s plenty of lifted trucks with handicapped tags. Amazing that they can’t walk (thus needing that parking spot) but can climb in and out of their trucks. Idiotic, no?

👏👏👏👏👏

Yes, Americans tend to stick their heads in a hole when it comes to thinking about our planet and all things tied to inefficient large vehicles. That becomes much less of an impact when driving an electric Pickup… I, for one, am very excited about replacing my F150 (which I love) with one from Tesla… assuming i can save enough to buy it.

Same, although perhaps not a Tesla, just the best vehicle at my price point (which probably won’t be Tesla).

I bought a truck because a car wont pull and stop 18000 lbs. That’s a stupid comment.

Vladimir Putin thanks you for your divisive and hateful comment. (◣_◢)

We EV advocates aren’t going to get anyone to stop buying unnecessarily large gas guzzlers by calling them selfish a-holes. The way to get people to buy EVs is by offering them more compelling and/or practical choices. Those choices will, sooner or later, include pickups.

“Honey catches more flies than vinegar.”

Ron Swanson's Mustache

Perfectly stated!

Attitudes like his are literally the worst thing about EV culture.

No one wants to hang out with, or be associated with finger-wagging moralistic authoritarian doucehbags.

Ron Swanson's Mustache

I bet you win a lot of converts with that approach.

Just so you know, attitudes like yours are basically why EVs have become politically polarizing and why moderates and mild conservatives and libertarians have become reactionary.

Or, to sum up:
“If you run into an a-hole in the morning, you ran into an a-hole. If you run into a-holes all day, you’re the a-hole.”
― Raylan Givens Justified

They also burn huge amounts of gas on a yearly basis compared to passenger vehicles, which makes them a very important market sector for EV’s.

I actually find it kind of troubling that this is true. Setting aside the fact that large vehicles like trucks and SUVs are a bigger killer of pedestrians and cyclists than autos; setting aside the fact that most of these are not even used for their intended purpose; there is something inherently wrong with the mindset of a culture when you have large vehicles like these becoming bigger sellers than comparably smaller vehicles like sedans. I’m genuinely interested in the mentality of people who buy these things. Why do they buy them? What purpose do they fulfill? Is it a status thing? Do they feel like they need it? How often do they actually use it as a proper pickup truck? I could be wrong, but I don’t think anyone has actually bothered to research these questions.

People in the US mostly buy vehicles for emotional reasons, we are affluent and gas prices are low so we can get away with it. A pickup represents a strong, competent image and is good for things like camping and construction (and hauling your boat to the lake) so that’s a compelling image for an American guy, he will of course seldom do any of those things. Much more logical to rent a truck or tow a trailer but that’s not the point.

@Dave
So true.
That’s also why Mrs Pickup has a large SUV.
Even my own female friends think they need a large SUV when they have ONE kid.

Birds of a feather….

But even if he only does it a few times a year it may make financial sense to own one.

You don’t have to be using it daily for it to make sense. In the same way most four door/five seat sedans are used almost exclusively with just one occupant.

The fact modern pickups are now all round family vehicles is one of the reasons they are so popular. Manufacturers have been making them more family friendly for a decade or more (ride/drive quality, interior quality/space) so people that find them useful for their weekend interest can use them as a regular vehicle as well.

A truck is probably the hardest thing to actually rent – for starters there are a lot less of them available, but secondly most owners have very specific needs, and may well have modified their vehicle to fit that specific need. Not something you can just pick up at a rental location on a moments notice.

Driving a pickup as an every day means of transportation makes the driver feel safe and isolated from the real world due to the outlandish size and especially height.We are what we drive,at least in our imagination as a tough brawny roughneck that the poor driver of a car can’t tangle with.

The big 3 are totally risk adverse. They have waited and now see the Rivians, Bollinger’s and Tesla’s can create demand for BEV pickup. I think they will continue to slow roll it, to see what Rivian and Tesla come out with. Let the new guys take all the risks in technology, style and test the demand waters…then slowly come barreling in

And looked how well that worked for Kodak, Blackberry, RCA, Honeywell Computers, Most HiFi stereo companies, Exicite, Blockbuster, Nokia, Microsoft Phone, Xerox Star, other companies that did not look to see what their competitors were doing.

Kodak were the Number 1 manufacturer of digital cameras in the early 2000’s… That didn’t go well for them in the long term did it?

As a F150 owner the Atlis is the only truck that I can even stomach looking at and ALL these EV’s have the same issue, PRICE POINT. Until they show up on a lot with a window sticker it’s all just smoke and mirrors.

Atlis is a SCAM imho,,they have no bateries,motors,employees or factory.not even a PHONE Number..
Their adress is empty field in Arizona..
.only a fool would give money to such outfit

People used to say the same thing about Tesla (and still do).

Tesla never claimed to have a secret magical battery tech, like Atlis does.

Perhaps Atlis isn’t a scam, but it certainly appears to be exactly that. Most if not all of the red flags of a scam are clearly present.

I believe they have ~6 employees, and have raised their goal of 1 million dollars to build their first prototype…so they are one step above vaporware (barely).
I don’t think they will ever reach production with it…but the truck looks GREAT (appearance & specs), I hope Tesla flat out copy’s it.

1 million dollars isn’t enough to build a meaningful prototype and also pay salaries for 6 employees for a year.

Not even close to cover the cost for prototypes. When I tooled a armrest program for a gm truck, the cost tot prototype the armrest alone was over $250k and that was back in the 1990’s.

“…but the truck looks GREAT (appearance & specs)”

Atlis doesn’t have a truck. So far as I can see, it only has a good CGI artist. Unlike real-world automotive engineers, CGI artists are not constrained by such things as cost, durability, practicality, or even the requirement of being built on a real-world assembly line.

Nigerian prince scam

The Atlis also seems to be the only truck similar in size to F150…all the others are smaller like a Chevy Colorado or Honda ridgeline

I’ve been driving trucks my whole life, my first vehicle was a truck, as was my second (and I’ve owned 4 others since). I use them a lot. But ya know? I also have solar which keeps my electric bill really really low. I’d like to eliminate my diesel and gas bill too.

So I’ll be in line for one.

If we are simply looking at measuring performance, there was that Range Rover Defender Electric.

“Taking a standard Defender 110 and removing the diesel engine and gearbox, the Defender is fitted with a 300 volt, lithium ion battery with a capacity of 27kWh and 70kw, 330Nm electric motor, for a range of around 50 miles per charge… and has been successfully tested in trials including pulling a 12-tonne ‘road train’ up a 13 per cent gradient and wading to a depth of 800mm.”

https://leasing.com/car-leasing-news/land-rover-reveals-electric-defender/

So one can imagine what one with 7X larger battery could do.

I agree that the Tesla pick-up truck is several years out. They simply cannot afford to bring it out at the same time as Model Y and Semi which is their priority now. However I do believe Tesla is the current leader in low cost batteries and if they maintain this lead, they could be the first to produce an electric pick-up that is mass market affordable, not just the top end.

Wall Street bitching about “profitability” has done it’s job, slowed Tesla down.

I agree it has slowed them down…but I also think it shows they can be sustainable in their business model and continue to grow. Tesla is willing to take risks, and has breakneck speed of innovation compared to incumbents. Even with slower growth, Tesla’s willingness to take those big risks is better than OEM’s having huge war chests of cash and slapping new badges on same old same old

Until Tesla has the capacity to build enough batteries to satisfy what will likely be incredible demand for the model Y I don’t think it makes sense for them to field a pickup truck given that each one will likely require double the kWh battery capacity the Y will require.

Battery capacity isn’t the current bottleneck for Tesla. Floor space in an automobile assembly plant is the bottleneck. The Fremont plant is about maxed out due to lack of space. That’s why Tesla is now seriously considering installing one or more auto assembly lines at Gigafactory 1, so they can make the Model Y there.

Keep going Tesla! 🙂

To be fair, Tesla was going to have to start showing a net profit sooner or later. And I think the general downturn in automobile sales — almost certainly signaling a coming downturn in the economy, both in the U.S. and worldwide — is more likely to be the cause of an apparent slowdown in Tesla’s ongoing expansion than anything Wall Street is responsible for.

Frankly, I’m relieved that Tesla has stopped talking about trying to do 10 things at once over the next year or two. During an economic downturn, Tesla needs to concentrate on maintaining the successful parts of its business, not expand out into new and risky endeavours.

On the other hand, I hope Tesla does go ahead with production of the Mark II Roadster. Assembly of such a low-volume car doesn’t need to be done at a full-scale auto assembly plant; it can be done at almost any factory of moderate or larger size. If Model S sales are flagging, then a new halo car may be just what Tesla needs!

The numbers just don’t Pencil out for the Rivian. They don’t have a battery factory and they don’t have scale. Their efficiency appears to be awful, necessitating ridiculously large batteries, which are the most expensive piece of the vehicle.

Without better aerodynamics electric trucks will all be stuck with lousy efficiency and giant batteries. I’ll be interested to see how Tesla solves this.

Rivian’s numbers work. Trucks have an even higher margin than luxury vehicles and as you get more power the difference in cost between an ICE and BEV powertrain shrink.
And batteries are getting cheaper.

Hi, on the contrary I believe they are ok to take next steps. They’ve partnered with (unconfirmed) LG Chem for the cells, so they have supply chain in place. Manufacturing in Michigan will help keep costs (and tariffs) at bay.

Battery prices will continue to fall, however the early Rivian releases will cost them more than the later ones.

I’d just like to hear more of a game plan and some production estimates/timing, more solidly given.

From your collection of wholly unfounded FÜD about Rivian, I can only assume you are an investor in a rival startup, and you feel threatened by Rivian’s obviously good chances for success.

Tesla didn’t have a battery factory for its first several years of production, either. And Rivian already has ownership of a former auto assembly plant, which puts it one leg up on what Tesla had when it was new.

I agree that Tesla will offer a pickup with better aerodynamics. But perhaps Rivian is smart to offer something much closer to a traditional pickup… or more accurately, an SUT, because the cargo bed in Rivian’s R1T is too short for a proper pickup. Perhaps Rivian is smart not to make the risky bet of offering a “weirdmobile” as its first vehicle. Elon says that Tesla will indeed be offering a weirdmobile (my term, not his) for its pickup.

There is no way in the near future where an electric truck could tow my 10,000 pound load anywhere near how far it needs to go without several painful recharging stops. I’m all for evs. We Use our 2015 Leaf for 90% of our miles driven. But as a tow vehicle? Not there yet. Not even close.

Rivian loses half range towing at max capacity of 11000lb. That would be stopping to charge every 200 miles or 3 hours for an hour at a time.
Most trucks will lose more than 1/3 to 1/2 their range when towing max loads as well. Requiring a 15 min stop about every 300 miles or so or about 5 hours.

Don’t know how far you drive. But if is only one days travel, it doesn’t seem that much of a burden considering how much money you would save on fuel.

Exactly, and that’s on the couple days a year or less that the average American even uses a truck like that. Barely ever. Towing a load over 200 miles in a truck is something I do once every few years and I’ve owned an F150 for about 20 years. These range arguments are sounding as dumb as refusing a smart phone over a flip phone because the battery needs to be charged more than once per week.

Depends, a lot of people tow long distances. When I tow, it’s usually 600-800 mile days. That’s a lot of electricity. Charging infrastructure will have to be upgraded. Then if you throw in cold weather, you could be looking at efficiency of .5 to .75 mile/kWh. That puts usage in line with a semi. This is why I would argue that we need to be installing 300kw+ charging stations now. Otherwise all the stations will need to be upgraded/replaced in a short period of time.

The ongoing need to keep upgrading EV fast chargers is indeed going to be a challenge for the EV revolution. But as they say: “Necessity is the mother of invention”. The rising demand for EVs will absolutely require support by a robust, powerful, nationwide EV charging infrastructure. Demand is going to cause that to happen, just as demand for paved roads during the motorcar revolution caused the creation of our national highway system, followed by the Interstate highway system.

Anyone who thinks we’re not going to see the rise of infrastructure supporting ultra-fast charging for EVs in the coming (human) generation… well, they’re ignoring the lessons of history pretty firmly.

Doods complaint about coal plants making EV driving dirty has been proven wrong long time ago,besides most places use Hydro and Solar,Wind
Whats puzling is why Americans build those horizontal propelers when VERTICAL wind charger is way more efficient and reliable see
http://www.windside.com

Electric truck is the future no doubt and even off road crawling is much easier
Check this EV Jeep conversion for example
https://youtu.be/vD9lXRRhQ2U

That was hard to watch without screaming at the idiot with all the misinformation and typical BS anti-ev mentality.

The low end torque of electric drive is exactly what trucks, used as work trucks need. That’s why diesels are the preferred engine for 18 wheel haulers. Batteries or hydrogen? There is no question; batteries are better, if charging time isn’t the deciding factor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY

I couldn’t get past the first 30 seconds of this video. I’m so tired of climate change denying rednecks acting smug.

I actually watched the video… not all of it, because my patience ran out before the end, but here’s the anti argument in a nutshell (and exaggerated somewhat for sarcastic effect):

1. None of these pickups are in production yet. What kind of gullible fool would believe in a “future” that hasn’t even happened yet? I mean yeah, we’ve got all these companies saying they’re going to produce electric trucks, but companies have failed before; therefore, we can expect all these guys to fail.

2. An electric truck is a coal-powered truck. Electricity is made by burning coal, which means electric trucks aren’t “green”. Maybe we can dream that someday in the distant fairy tale future the last coal power plant will be shut down, and then electric vehicles will finally make some kind of sense.

3. Hauling or towing anything will kill your range, and then you’ll be stuck for hours and hours (or at least 20 minutes, which is practically the same thing when THERE’S WORK TO BE DONE!) at a charging station. Nobody will stand for that!

Towing over distance is the issue.

I disagree about the coal comments. Not everywhere is using Coal for power generation. Most countries/places around the globe are moving away. Maybe the actual manufacturing of the Rivian trucks might come from coal sourced power today, however when the truck is sold to an area that has zero coal power (like Ontario, Canada for an example), the Carbon footprint can be reclaimed over time/recharging.

Also, yes of course hauling could cut your range in half or more! Agree. So one looks at their use case (for now) and decides if this will work for them. I see so many comments that people pick apart a product because it does not do this or support that. The Rivian trucks will NOT work for everyone. Just like a Model 3 does not work for everyone. We all have different needs (and wants, but that is another story). The point is that Rivian and serious others can help to switch over current Pickup & large SUV drivers/owners from a tailpipe to zero-emissions, and that is what it is all about.

Fun vid… Have owned a Leaf since giving my F250 to a Co worker… My next truck will be electric… EV’s are sooooo much fun! Most charging… 95% or so is done from home… Zero time! In a couple years superchargers will be everywhere… As will EV trucks

Some people think they are, but people say lots of stuff.

Everyday, my BMW i3-REx shames the big ICE cars that can not afford a maximum acceleration. So I’m fairly sanguine about the future of ICE-only pickups. A plugin hybrid pickup makes sense if the EV range is in the ~30 mi range. BEV works but a little pricy. Regardless, if the unloaded pickup can’t reach 60 mph in less than 6-7 seconds, they are and will remain toast.

Battery size and the resulting economics will be key. Certainly Tesla and Bollinger will capture the bad to the bone sales that Hummer tapped into. Most pickups in the US are purchased as style choices vs. work choices.

For work necessity, it will be hard for EV pickups to replace the economy and ease of use ICE pickups. Service I hired to tow my boat from VA to OR couldn’t make a living using an EV truck.

One irony of EVs taking over gasoline will be cheaper and the higher price of EV’s vs. ICE will make the ICE pickups the more economical choice.

I gave my husband a deposit on a Rivian for Christmas! I have been an EV nut for years and he has let me buy or lease a Volt, Bolt, then swap those out for a Chrysler Pacifica PHEV and a Tesla M3. The Chrysler Pacifica PHEV while nice is only 1/2 EV and not nearly as cool as the Rivian. So when he gets the Rivian that will go and we will be fully EV.

Of course it can be done. 30K$ for 200KWh betteries, 30K$ for the rest of the truck. Sell it for 75K$ for the base model and 100K$ for the high end models.
Wipe out the higher margin segment of Ford and watch them scamper.

Ford make most of their money on $30-40k pickups. And therein lies the problem with the “Ford are toast” fud.

If Tesla can beat the Raptor in most categories the truck will sell. It’s what Tesla does best, high priced performance. Tesla can work down from there just like their cars are doing.

The Raptor isn’t what it is because of it’s power (it’s hardly more powerful than other trucks). It’s because of it’s off road capability – which includes large tyres, wide stance and most importantly massive shocks/suspension (which is close to $10-15k retail on it’s own).

I would have wiped the floor against the heavy-set guy in a debate.

Source of power issue:
Solar has been the dominant source of new energy production for the past two and a half years
Reduced towing issue:
they obviously solved the problem with the semi and they will solve it with the pick up because batteries are getting cheaper so they will simply have more of them.
High-cost issue:
by the time you factor in the reduced cost of fuel the reduced cost of maintenance and the longer lifespan it is not a higher cost.
Excessive weight required for a heavy truck issue:
Again see Tesla semi….again understand that the engineers at the various firms producing the electric trucks are not part of some elaborate conspiracy to defraud investors because they come from even the largest players

once you’ve driven an electric vehicle you understand.
Just do that before you’re a hater.

This video can be appreciated IMHO for one simple fact … it contains a good solid dose of Redneckery. And if you’re talking trucks this is the starting point. If it don’t play with the ‘Necks it’s not gonna play at all.

Yes and hurry up with it i like to get one with a good looking style to the truck. I need the truck to be useful and work correctly. I do not not need it to look bosy style futuristic.

What is the logic of lugging a 5000lb car to move a 150lb person around. Maybe a serious rethink of what a car/van should be is required. I once had a 2000lb Renault van with a useful payload of 2000lb it was very simple but also very functional.

S and X are in the 5,000# range, Model 3 4,000# Weight of the vehicle is not relevant. It’s the emissions.

Weight and frontal area is very relevant it determines the amount of emissions. Why do you think the Ionic scores so well, magic?

I’m sure an electric scooter, or an e-bike, scores a lot better for energy efficiency than even a Hyundai Ionic Electric.

Touting the energy efficiency of a compliance car is pretty meaningless. There aren’t enough being sold to have a measurable impact on CO2 emissions. Even the best energy efficiency in the world is of no use if nobody buys the vehicle!

Contrariwise, Tesla is selling enough cars to actually make a real difference. So far only a tiny difference, but that will certainly grow over time.

Never work up north when temperature goes 40-60 below wind chills dead battery kind of like your cellphone battery. Its not for be yet.

Wind chill does not affect machinery.

Honestly, I blame the media for their hyperbole and insistence on using windchill factors like absolute temperature values.

You are right in a way though -20 to -30C temperatures do cause range issues, causing a requirement for a larger battery.

Difficult to see them entirely replacing ff pickups due to mainly commercial applications where they must pull loads as heavy as the truck itself for many miles. For example, where I live in NV, a pickup might tow a backhoe for 150 miles into the hinterlands where there hardly any towns let alone charging infrastructure, then back 30 miles of rocky dirt road, and haul it back at the end of the day after putting in a culvert or some such. That said, I think most pickups are bought by men who rarely use them for hauling other than occasionally moving some furniture or plywood, just ’cause real men drive trucks, so I would guess at least half could be replaced by electric. Rivian has the right idea I think. They will only buy them if they are more powerful, fast, sexy, etc, than ff ones.

The current generation of EVs certainly are very restricted in the amount of energy their battery packs can carry, as compared to a tank full of gasoline or diesel. That means limited towing distance.

Fortunately, batteries still have the potential for more than a magnitude of improvement in energy density. The problem of limited towing distance probably won’t vanish in the near future, but it will certainly improve year by year.

It’s this dogmatic response to “THE GRID” being dirty that is the fallback of many EV naysayers. So let’s look at that. In 2010 COAL made up 45% of the US grid. In 2020 Coal will make up 24% of the grid. Renewables are by far the fastest growing segment of of new grid addition and prices for wind and solar have been dropping consistently for decades and will continue to do so as scale ramps. Grid coal is a dead man walking at $3500 a Kw for construction (without coal supply cost added) while wind is at $1500 Kw and solar is down to $1300 Kw. Battery storage will add significantly to this cost….and then ZERO $ for fuel cost for the 25 year lifespan. NG is at $1000 Kw so it IS the cheapest install…then you have the NG cost ongoing year after year. The summation is that as the grid cleans up (which it is significantly Year by year) your vehicle becomes more clean The reality being that if you flood the market with BEV demanding electricity…the new generation of power will be clean sourced based on economics alone. All of this data is available on the… Read more »

Really, we shouldn’t keep wasting our time arguing with those dinosaurs still regurgitating the long-obsolete “long tailpipe” EV hater myth.

Just point to what the Union of Concerned Scientists has to say about the issue — that is, actual facts rather than myths promoted by Big Oil’s shills, lackeys, and “useful idiots”.

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions#.XFh4uqBMGos

The guy on the right is not fixable. His mind wiring is just not reversable​ …. He’s one of those who will dearly miss rolling coal …. Poor guy. He is great dough at picking the half truths …. These type of guys always are ….. Next?

Nathan is wrong! I have a Nissan Leaf and using your smartphone map to tell you where and how far the next charger is while looking at the range on your battery is no big deal. While you charge your car one can go eat, send an email, stretch, call a freind, post on Facebook, go shopping and on and on. Electricity is virtually at every house or building so running out of juice requires simply asking a stranger or a freind to charge until you have enough range to get to a quicker charger. The inconvenience of charging should not outweigh an inhospitable planet where we have to spend more money on food due to poor farming conditions, loss of fisheries. More devastating storms will impact all of us in one way or another. Man has to rise above one persons inconveniences and consider the generations to come after us. The remark that the electrical source should be considered is a small excuse. As even powering an electric car with coal is still better than a gas powered car as the electric car is just so much more efficient. The energy grid is becoming more green everyday as well!… Read more »

An all electric truck would be perfect 2nd car for family. Simple. Low maintenance. (No oil changes, filters, spark plugs etc.) Fuel won’t go bad from sitting. Add a removable gas generator, and you have perfect truck for local contractor, and/or back up power for power outages.