VW Claims By 2020, Its Electric Cars Will Match Tesla At Half Price

OCT 26 2018 BY STEVEN LOVEDAY 205

Volkswagen Group continues to tout its future EVs, but there’s still not much proof of anything and its comparisons seem unreasonable.

First of all, while we regularly reveal our skepticism with Volkswagen and it EV pursuits (and for good reason), we truly hope that the automaker is wildly successful, and sooner rather than later. Honestly, with VW’s size and resources, it could arguably by the automaker best-equipped to transition the EV segment as we know it and generate massive adoption. This could be especially realistic if it can build a car that is comparable to the Tesla Model 3, but comes at half the price.

Volkswagen has invested a considerable amount of money in its electric vehicle plans and has been advertising these potential vehicles for years. The automaker’s most recent announcements include its highly innovative electric car manufacturing facility and its goal of initial production by 2019 and electrifying its entire lineup by 2030.

Volkswagen brand chief Herbert Diess shared (via Electrek, translated from German):

Here we come very strong now. We have invested 30 billion in electromobility, we have already rededicated a plant in Zwickau, and we are building an electric vehicle plant in Shanghai. We will come in 2020 with vehicles that can do anything like Tesla and are cheaper by half.

No specific “Tesla killer” model was specified. However, the first VW I.D. vehicles are due out around the time frame mentioned. The cars have been touted for years as being able to beat Tesla on range, however, little is known about these vehicles’ performance aspects or most other details. Additionally, pricing has not yet been revealed, but there has been talk of a price around ~$28,000.

If VW can build mass-produce and mass-market a long-range, sub-$30,000 electric vehicle, this will be fantastic for the segment. If it can beat Tesla on range, it’s assumed it will also beat the Chevrolet Bolt EV, the Nissan LEAF, and the Hyundai Kona Electric, which are all vehicles that the car would likely compete with as well.

However, until we know that this inexpensive, long-range electric car can match or beat a vehicle like the Tesla Model 3 in the performance department, this is a pretty bold statement from Volkswagen. In addition, $28,000 is surely not half of $46,000. Nonetheless, we look forward to the future when VW brings these vehicles to market and outperforms Tesla.

Source: Electrek

Categories: Tesla, Volkswagen

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205 Comments on "VW Claims By 2020, Its Electric Cars Will Match Tesla At Half Price"

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Lawrence

The eGolf is about half the price and so what? I had one of those. If they can make a car compatible to the Golf go 300miles EPA, and at $28,000, plus sell it in all 50 states in the volume they are constantly announcing, certainly it’s a compelling vehicle. Too bad I won’t by another car from them after Dieselgate.

Cypress

They don’t seem to have plans to bring their new Golf size EV to North America. Which is probably wise, consider the lack of desire for small hatchbacks here.

Lawrence

Just lift it 2”, add plastic cladding and call it a crossover. I think people are willing to switch back to a hatch back with the range penalty on crossovers and SUV’s. That could be the killer of the SUV fad.

Foersom

Actually the SUV “fad” / CUV fashion is good for EVs. It is easier to fit in a high-floor full size battery design and still have good sitting position in the back seats. This is why we see Hyundai Kona, Kina E-Niro, Jaguar I-Pace, Audi E-tron coming in CUV / SUV style.

Lawrence

I would disagree because if they are using the common EV battery chassis layout, there needs to be more space between the underside of the SUV/CUV and the interior floor as compared to an ICE in order to accommodate the height of the battery pack. Now the vehicle needs to be even taller in order to offer the same ground clearance. The higher profile always works against range.

Milfan

Raising 2″ and calling them a Crossover makes perfect sense and that’s what is Toyota C-HR, Nissan Kicks, Chevy Trax and so on. Basically 5 door vehicles are more functional and that’s what a customer wants. Unfortunately the hatchbacks are not sold as a distinct models and so they suffer in sales, otherwise they will also sell well.

Dan F.

Yea, this is too bad, apparently we will get the lifted (and bigger?) Id crozz or some such thing to start. That Id shown is the one I would like. Unlike the European premium brands, VW does not seem as attached to the design/styling of its conventional vehicles. The suggested prices may well be for shorter range versions as they apparently plan to offer multiple ranges on each vehicle.

BillT

I think if it looks CUV like very few people will care about ground clearance.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Exactly. Not a lot of people use their CUVs for off-road driving… the I-Pace notwithstanding.

Lawrence

You can include the iPace owners as people who never off-road. Just because it’s more capable of doing so doesn’t mean people will. Look at all existing Land Rover owners. It’s that whole moronic “not that you would, but you could” or “you never might need it, but just in case of a zombie-pocalypse” mantra.

pjwood1

An OEM would actually want to lose the ground clearance, if it wanted easier compliance with CAFE.

MoMac

VW should at least consider selling the first ID (Neo?) in ZEV-mandated states in the US to reduce the ZEV credits it needs to buy from competitors (or fines paid to the states).

Quebec 100% EV

EVEN if VW could actually make an e-Golf that does 300miles EPA, it still doesnt charge faster than 43KW, doesnt have active thermal battery management and doesn’t have access to supercharger network. That would be a really bad deal for $28,000. I certainly wouldnt buy it.

Lawrence

Only based off of my experience, my eGolf after 42000 miles lost less range than my 2018 Leaf had in 7000 miles. About 10%. Only one sampling here so it’s not good statistics, but I wonder why the eGolf did so much better.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Probably because the battery cells in the eGolf have good battery chemistry, and Nissan’s cells didn’t. That’s almost certainly why Nissan sold off its AESC battery making division: inferior chemistry.

Dan F.

I would drive right over to the VW dealer and happily pay msrp ($28k per your comment) TODAY, not tomorrow, because they would all be gone tomorrow.

Brian

Since Management’s lying and cheating hasn’t returned the desired results compared to Tesla, it appears that they are switching strategies to smoking dope.

Lausbub

Right, but I an still hoping that somebody will bring good hatchback EV or a wagon. That stupid trunk concept of the Model 3 is still keeping me thinking whether to order it or not once it will be available in Europe.

Brian

Having the best production car aero is more important than having a hatchback. A Model 3 wagon would make more people happy.

James

I own a 3. I thought the same way. I was swayed when I folded the seats down and realized it carries more than a LEAF, eGolf, Kona EV or Bolt (Ampera-e) inside.

I am asking Tesla for Camping Mode. I am 6’1″ tall and can sit comfortably in the rear seats or sleep at rest stops with the back seats folded down.

One note: It is a low slung car. Ideally, an MPV style EV would be easier for ingress/egress and a crossover version on the 3 platform will sell very well. How many years did it take the established car companies to build more factories? Tesla surely needs another to build Model Y. I wouldn’t wait that long for a car, Rather got the 3 first and am extremely glad I did.

The sleek styling of the 3 makes me smile every day. I know it is very low drag and efficient. Would I give that up for a hatch in back and more height? To tell the truth, I wish to own one of each.

MikeM

I’m with you on that!

I moved away from sedan to hatch/liftback in 1979, and was greatly irked to find that my most desired car of all time (Tesla 3) would be a sedan for Pete’s sake!
That said, my new Model 3 has an absolutely cavernous trunk by my standards. Its other virtues are well known.

“The sleek styling of the 3 makes me smile every day. I know it is very low drag and efficient”. Amen to that!

HansBlix

Same here, hatch is muc more practical. And I dont want to have an SUV.. station wagon is or hatchback is the way to go for practicality and efficiency.

Mike

Hilarious. Tesla offers supercharging VW offers discounted weed.

Actually that strategy might work for the EV MicroBus. It is the perfect throw back surfer/stoner mobile.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

You can get a bunch of peeps in that ride to “Hot Box” it…… 😛
ROTFLMAO

pjwood1

The US indicted Arthur Anderson, and they folded. It CRIMINALLY CONVICTED VW, and let them walk.

Dan F.

Compared to the perfectly legal NOx and CO2 emissions from US diesel pickup trucks, VWs emissions were probably quite small. Yes they broke the law and were unbelievably stupid to do it, but the penalty was huge relative to the actual NOx emissions involved and these were very low (for an ICE vehicle) CO2 emission vehicles. Self righteousness is an ugly thing too.

pjwood1

This story was about lying, something many today do “self righteously”.

Fraud against the US Gov’t, and consumers is something that has, in fact, caught up to Volkswagen. But they took a payment, that VW had in cash (in return for buying back cars at wholesale trade +5k). At this point, I’d be fine giving the money back, in return for treating them appropriately.

RE: NOx “probably quite small”. Unlike VW’s little 2.0’s, light trucks do achieve low NOx because ones like the Chevy Colorado Diesel include Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR). VW’s emitted at 35-40 times the legal .07gr/mile spec limit. Coal power plants, in remote places where NOx matter less, used SCR to drop from 4 to 2 pounds/MWh, but asking VW to reduce smog in cities, like Stuttgart is still tough.

The CO2 from a 40mpg diesel isn’t materially different than gas, at the same 40mpg. That EVs can do much better is one of the reasons some people follow IEV.

Milfan

New York is suing Exxon for hiding the truth and spreading false info. Soon the states could sue VW as well.
But China will simply ban them from selling gasmobiles and diesel vehicles.

William
CS

Why don’t you first show that you can match Tesla at even the same price?

Udi

They don’t need to match Tesla. Most people would settle for a less advanced vehicle, as long as the range and charging capability are reasonable, and the price is 28K (lets hope), compared to 46K for the cheapest Tesla.

By “most people”, I don’t necessarily mean in the US, where Tesla has the “home advantage”, but rather worldwide.

J. L. Brown

Because lying is easier. VW has recently lobbied (successfully, apparently) to weaken the European 2040 emissions standards from a 40% reduction from today. If they had any intention at all of being pure-BEV by 2030, that would not have been necessary.

noleaf4me

BRILLIANT CS — I’d be thrilled with that!! (not that I’d ever buy a product from that company after what they did….but at least it will push the movement forward!)

Brian

VW is great at lying and poor at telling the truth

Dante

So VW is going to to have build costs for long-range over-engineered, aluminum-strenthened electric vehicles down below $15,000 in a year and two months? And they’ll do that by first spending $30 billion dollars?

Well, good luck. If the Tycan comes in at $40k or has a 100%+ margin at $80k, you’ll know that they aren’t just dieselgating us.

Gibber

Don’t confuse this VW product statement with the products from other VW group partners.

David H

Dante did not. The claim came from Diess, head of VW group! So the statement refers to all VW sub brands!

Dante

So VW is going to horde technology from Porsche? They’ve basically announced magic.

SansIce

I love the styling of the car above. I wish there was a hot hatch with 60kw pack priced in the 20s that looked decent. I am not holding my breath though. With VW’s track record of deception and the recent announcements by their leadership that seems to erode their EV mission statement, I honestly don’t know what to believe any more.

Cypress

The Bolt EV matches your criteria, after incentives.

Viking79

Selling the car at that price wouldn’t be profitable for GM, given they discount it about 15% I imagine it isn’t profitable now. It is important for these cars to be profitable, but they refuse to give them specs that will sell the vehicles for the premium demanded over gas cars (they need to make the EV faster, more powerful, better towing, whatever).

Vexar

It isn’t profitable now. I doubt they could shave $9000. off manufacturing without massive increases in production. Much of what makes the Bolt EV an electric is developed and manufactured by LG, which means they can’t control costs. The Bolt EV is stuck with low numbers that only make sense with ZEV credits. Under the current US administration, there is a concerted effort to demolish the market incentives/pressures towards EVs. Meanwhile, entire cities in the EU and the United Kingdom are about to or already have banned non-electric automotive transportation.

Brian

It’s not profitable because of high outsourcing and small quantities.

Vic Bar

Nope, the Bolt is ugly

James

Despite the Bolt’s transportation pod looks, I would buy one if it was one category larger, say even compact crossover size.

I’m still aghast that they are asking $44,000 for a Premier without ACC and a tad more cushioning in the seats.

The Buick version still sits at Rumor Status. No Buick Bolt prototypes have been shown, or mules covered in camo photographed while out testing. This suggests that slightly larger Bolt with Buick luxuries we’ve been told is in the pipeline, did not get a green light from GM management.

The SUV cash flow is oh, so protected by the major carmakers.

James

Ampera-e not sold in Europe anymore. Also, it didn’t have a $7,500 tax incentive there.

In North America the Bolt is a choice. Yet with no ACC, a hard plastic interior and subcompact size, it is a commitment to spend even $34,000 out the door for such a small car with such a limited feature set.

Frankly, for my family the Bolt needs minivan-like versatility for $40,000. I’m mulling over a Chrysler Pacifica PHEV.

Viking79

I think they will have a hard time getting a 60 kWh pack for less than $35,000. I think you will see maybe 40 kWh packs around $30,000. Pretend they match Tesla’s costs, to have a reasonably profitable 60 kWh car it will be about $45,000.

Most important thing to lower costs for EVs is more efficiency, as higher efficiency leads to same range for less kWh. Look at Model 3 MR, with similar battery size as Bolt EV it gets 22 miles more range. I imagine the cost to build the Model 3 MR is similar or less than the Bolt EV and sells for about $5 – 10,000 more (you probably don’t pay MSRP for Bolt EV).

Udi

You are ignoring cost reductions in battery pack prices.
I saw a video stating the reduction was 20% per year between 2014-2016 (it maybe be just the cells though, not sure).

Even assuming the reduction will be just 15% per year, its a 50% drop in 3 years (by end of 2021), and by then a 60 kWh pack will sell for maybe $5-6,000.

Pushmi-Pullyu

No, he’s not ignoring that. Tesla has the lowest per-kWh cost for battery cells of any auto maker, and even Tesla won’t see a 50% drop over the next 3 years. Battery cell makers have made a lot of progress in lowering the cost of cells due to ramping up production and economy of scale, but that benefit has mostly been exhausted over the past few years.

Besides, the cost of the battery pack is only maybe 1/3 the cost of a BEV. (For the Model S, it was 25% of the cost a few years ago. For lower-priced BEVs, it may be as much as 1/3, but I think it unlikely to be much if any more.) Halving that cost won’t halve the cost of the entire car.

Furthermore, if battery costs do drop that much, that will benefit Tesla just as much as any other auto maker… or even more, given Tesla’s significantly more advanced EV tech.

Brian

Or even that the Bolt had a nice hot-hatch look rather than looking like a Honda Fit with a Chevy bowtie on front.

Dudamus

Yeah great looking car, the VW EV van too, really hot.

Dan F.

That car with 60kWh will not be in the $20s . Maybe the high $20s with 40 kWh or so.

Even if they could make a similar car…What about charging infrastructure? There is no “catching up” to Tesla without DC fast chargers located along highways that have 135kW of power or more.

Brian

VW has no choice but to build out infrastructure now, thanks to the settlement. If nothing else, it makes them consider selling EVs in the future.

Texas Leaf

I guess you haven’t looked at PlugShare lately. Electrify America currently has over 150 charging stations either in construction or operational across the country and most of those have 350 kW chargers. It looks like Tesla is the one that needs to do catchup now.

acevolt

Tesla has to do the catching up???? You realize they have over 10,000 superchargers around the world don’t you.

King

And over 5000 of those are in the US and thousands more are under construction.

scott

Think of all the electricians being put to work installing charging stations. Warms my cockles.

Andy

Tesla only have in the region of 600 stations in the US, and aren’t building more than 100-200 in the next year. Electrify America are legally mandated to build around 400-500 stations by the middle of next year.

Then there are the other EV charger companies that Electrify America have teamed up with. And the other charging companies that are around. Most of those plugs will not be accessible to the 3 as they are either CCS or CHAdeMO.

By 2020, the time VW release their EV’s in the US, there will probably be more High speed CCS DC charging stations than supercharging stations.

Total number of chargers, perhaps not, but in the beginning station numbers are more important.

eject

Those are chargers not locations

Viking79

It is great how many EA is adding, PlugShare just added a ton more under construction locations, but they are still way less than Tesla.

zzzzzzzzzz

You should look at Electrify America settlement plan, it is approved by court and so it is not an option for VW to fail on it, and it already made good progress:
https://elam-cms-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/inline-files/National%20ZEV%20Investment%20Plan.pdf
By the end of Cycle 1 mid 2019 they should have around 240 highway stations with several 350 kW plugs, plus 300+ community stations with 150 kW plugs. It would match approximately 651 Tesla station in the US that it currently have.

But that is EA only, open standards are not restricted by automaker just like you don’t have Ford only gas stations. All other charging networks use the same CCS & Chademo. Tesla is left on its own.

It is even more obvious in Europe that is VW home market.

Loek

You do realize Tesla’s can charge on Chademo, and if CCS becomes big they will put out an adapter for that too. That Tesla gets to use theirs and everyone else’s. The others don’t until they pay into Tesla’s superchargers.

zzzzzzzzzz

Too bad EA have only one Chademo plug per station, limited to 50 kW. It is to pretend compliance with “brand neutral” claim in the settlement and unlikely to be very useful when taken over by long line of Leafs.

Tesla Chademo adapter is also limited to 50 kW, and is already quite clumsy even at 50 kW. Now we are talking 350 kW. They can’t even make current one to work with Model 3.

Meanwhile CCS is already big enough. CCS adapters are not allowed by their standard, and communication bus is quite different. It seems highly unlikely Tesla will have both resources and lack of hubris to make something. Maybe do full switch in Europe where they use Type 2 plug, but I doubt it.

Tesla should have been joining existing Chademo alliance from the beginning, not later with adapter kludge. We may have had single DC plug then. Now it is too late to change anything.

David Cary

Right…..350kw.

Loek

As of right now, no other car can match the charging rate of my Model 3. Or even my 6 year old Model S. No other car you can actually buy anyway.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“It looks like Tesla is the one that needs to do catchup now.”

Maybe on Earth-2. Certainly not on Earth-1, where the rest of us live!

Sammy

Please remember to think about what prices are being compared before commenting. If a European talks about a price it may well be an OTR price in one country. That will include VAT which is around 20% across the EU. US Prices are before tax and even delivery so effectively the ‘Free On Board’ price as they leave the factory.

This does make a difference.

Nick

VWs cars will also attract VAT.

Andy

But the 25k euro price will already include VAT. As people in the US don’t include tax on advertised prices it’s not comparable.

VW say 25,000 Euros, that translates to an advertised US price of around $23k, not $28k.

$23k is pretty close to half the price of the cheapest car you can currently buy from Tesla.

Rolando

exactly !
The German prices contain 19% VAT, so 25k Euro = $28k is gross, comparable to USA price stated net of VAT (sales tax) = $23k.
As TM3 mid-range is now priced at $46k — so the cheapest VW is really HALF PRICE of Tesla’s currently cheapest Tesla offer.

Mark.ca

In 2020?
Coming to a museum near you. No touching please!

William

Also, in order to keep crowd control as orderly as possible,…

Please be so kind, to mind the red velvet rope!

Doggydogworld

And it’ll fly. And make you breakfast. We promise.

William

I’m holding out for VW that also brings in the morning paper!

Gibber

What’s a paper?

William

It’s that bird cage liner on the cage bottom, it often gets changed frequently, by using the conEVient and handy pull out tray.🙄

ffbj

Something that people used to wrap the garbage in, similar to what VW is spouting. A bunch of stinky garbage.

JoeInTheUK

over easy and crispy bacon please

Viking79

So VW is saying they will make an EV that offers AP/FSD, 0-60 in 3.3 Sec, has 300 mile range, for less than 35,000? And most importantly highly profitable? Good luck with that.

Lawrence

They’re not comparing to the P version. The only zinger at this point that VW could legitimately claim is at least they have adaptive cruise control (with stop and go) for a small adder. C’mon Tesla. Don’t make everyone get AP just to get adaptive cruise control.

Jason

Actually, that is what it claims. If you take the base Model 3 at US$35k and half that, then you get $17,500. Then add any options. If the options get it to $50k then those are some pretty expensive options.
Now it’s more likely they are Cherry picking their products, so US$70k Model S competitor for $35k, that’s certainly doable because Tesla already done it (well almost there).

Andy

There’s currently no $35k model 3 though is there.

It really depends on what VW are comparing, but with VW’s history it could feasibly be argued that a 300 mile VW Golf style car for $23k is a real possibility. For most people that would be bang on, and would sell like hotcakes, in Europe at least.

It’s not that fanciful considering 260 miles can be had for $35k now.

Alex

There’s no $35k model 3 yet. So we must consider the versions that are currently available. So it would be a car with a good range and far for $23k.

Andy

Probably worth mentioning here that VAG as a group are going to be the first company to release a true level 3 AV system in the new A8. AP is only level 2.

That’s not to say it’ll be available in a cheap VW for a while yet though, as it’s likely to be a five figure addon.

Alex

A8 can be close to level 3 in Europe.

ffbj

No for 17.5k. Which is half of 35k.

Viking79

The soon to come $35,000 Model 3 is 0-60 in about 6 seconds, 220 mile range. VW is not going to do that for half. Let alone less than $30,000, unless they wan’t to lose money on it.

As Jason points out, they are cherry picking products available today, but my guess is there is a translation error in that he didn’t really mean they would outdo current Tesla products at half the price. My guess is he meant they would have a 200 mile range EV for half the price of a current Model 3 or something (that is doable, but the car really won’t be equal or better than a Model 3 either, just as the Bolt EV is half the price of a Model S, it isn’t better than a Model S).

Fool Cells

exactly. VW needs to put down the diesel pipe and be more realistic. Can they even field one mass marketable, desirable EV with 200+ mile range, good styling inside and out and good performance under 40k by 2020 that does not lose money? My bet is no.

Amt

A Fraction of a Car For Half Price !… 🙁 ….. I Believe That!

Cypress

They probably need the same * that Tesla uses for it price after incentives and savings.

Cypress

That is a pretty bold claim. The 1/2 price I can almost believe with their economy of scale. But matching on performance seems really unlikely. Range, probably.

Alex

I think it’s the opposite. Electric motors are much more simple, doing a compact very powerful motor is not that hard. The price point is almost for sure a incredibly harder task

Windbourne

I am sick and tired of idiots like this screaming about Tesla, while China is DESTROYING them from within.
Tesla has helped these companies. Heck, America would have quickly fined VW for their CO2 BS, and kept the fine, EXCEPT for Elon’s suggestion of moving it to EVs. OTOH, China is forcing these companies to put up factories, and then steal their technology. And companies like VW, then go on and work with their rapist.

Nick

Shouldn’t you be running the country Donald?

TJKR

Donald Duck?

Brian

Sadly, based on the other responses to your comment, it seems that few people have a clue on what China is doing – and has been doing for decades.

zzzzzzzzzz

Every country aspires to do something better, have competitive industry, etc.
Wan Gang who pushed China to leapfrog the West in new energy vehicles is no exception.

It equally applies to China, US or Japan.

You are going to be taken over if you fall asleep while being a leader. It is life, no need to be negative, just do what is best for you.

John Doe

The rich probably know, but is making a ton of money, in the short term.

Companies that sell their core technology to China (that think in really long terms) will fail in the end. With leaders only thinking short term, and only focus on their wallet. . They should be let go, and probably fined/punished by the government – as they are a threat to the future prosperity of the country.

Of course if I were running China, I would do much of the same things.

CDAVIS

Volkswagen said: “Here we come very strong now. We have invested 30 billion in electromobility… We will come in 2020 with vehicles that can do anything like Tesla and are cheaper by half…”
————

lol

Pushmi-Pullyu

“VW Claims By 2020, Its Electric Cars Will Match Tesla At Half Price”

BWA HA HA HA HA!!
😆 😆 😆

When I saw the full title of this article, I just about snorted my drink thru my nose!

Who needs comedians, when we’ve got VW’s press releases?

Hey Volkswagon: Why doncha try actually doing something about making compelling EVs in large numbers, instead of continually bragging about what you’re going to do?

William

When oEVr 40% of your companies ownership (VW) is Foreign owned, including an influential, and wealthy, and powerful OPEC (smallest) Monarchy (Qatar 14+%), it is the continuation of ongoing and incremental press release delay tactics.

Through whatever means necessary, these 25%+ VW voting board members, of the Oil Cartel dependant establishment, need to embolden, and further their highly profitable existing revenue stream objectives. This is essential to keep those said lofty valuations, from potentially becoming future stranded assets.

Transformation can best be effectively influenced and implemented, by external disruptive competition. The EV only manufactures and suppliers, will be the precursor and compelling force, to implement change in the status quo existing ICE OEM energy market supply forces.

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/InvestorRelations/shares/shareholder-structure.html

Chris S

Qatar Holding has 17.0% voting rights and with this minority they obviously couldn’t stop the strategy 2025. This means that VW is now obligated to deliver their EV strategy to investors.

William

Your right, but also of note, that 10.8% of Voting rights includes “Others” (non Qatar Holdings). These 10.%+ voters, can be potentially incentivized, or swayed to assemble a like minded voting body of over 25%. It’s always hard to say where certain loyalties align, with these diverse voting members, especially when Royalties are involved.

William
Rolando

(1) there is some ‘Mitbestimmungsgesetz’ (controlling board law) in Germany which gives the Unions and employee groups 50% of board seats.
(2) for VW there is s special ‘Volkswagengesetz’ (VW law) which allows the state to have a say in the strategic politics.
(3) the state of Niedersachsen (lower Saxony) is holding a huge percentage of shares and have special super voting rights.
==>> The Emirate of Qatar can’t do anything with their shares about politics and just can collecting dividends.

John-EU

He has problably said ‘half the size’ instead of ‘half the price’ but as his english is not that good, it must have been misunderstood.

Lawrence

Reminds me stone henge from Spinal Tap. Here’s your car for $28k. Great when can you build the full size? This is the full size.

David H

This is the same assumtion as over at electrek, that the statement would refer to the Model 3 and the ID Neo. Herbert Diess is head of VW group and not the brand and he might mean all sorts of cars. They did not say that all vehicles will have an equivalent counterpart at Tesla and vice versa.
For example in 2020 the e-tron GT is supposed to be avaliable, or the Taycan Cross Turismo or the Audi Elaine (2019 in europe). And yes, maybe they are not intending to beat every possible measurement at half the price (i.e. 0-60 times), but when they manage to provide similar vehicles in terms of range, tech (and 70% of the performance) for significantly less money, I thing that’s a grat start.

ffbj

If, if and or buts, were candies and nuts, we would all be fat.

Jason

That would be a compelling argument except none of those vehicles are really that much cheaper, or better, than the Model X. Actually, the only measure they beat Model X on is their size because not everyone needs a super sized SUV. Taycan should beat it on charge speed, but first you need chargers that can go that speed (slowly building those) and second we have no idea of the battery longevity. Nissan thought their batteries would last 10yrs with about 20% degradation, then hot climate reality set in, maybe Taycan will have the same experience like 40kWh Leaf, severely slows down as temperature rises.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“They did not say that all vehicles will have an equivalent counterpart at Tesla and vice versa.”

The point here is that nobody, including VW, will be able to match any of Tesla’s cars at half the price, not even with just one of those other cars. Or even match Tesla’s cars at an equal price, for that matter!

Tesla’s EV tech is about 7 years ahead of the other auto makers… and they are pulling ahead as legacy gasmobile makers dig in their heels and refuse to produce compelling long-range plug-in EVs in large numbers!

A few years back, Tesla was about 5 years ahead of the others. Now they’re about 7 years ahead. It’s getting worse for Tesla’s competition, not better!

Brian

Not going to happen. VW only knows how to lie.

Some Guy

Well, I have no doubt that they will make it. After all, VW is the leader in EV technology now as of 2018, and has over 40 models available in the market (according to an announcement from a certain former VW CEO back in 2013, who is now wanted by US authorities in a different matter). /s
I also have a prediction. Within 10 years from today, Tesla will be among the largest vehicle producers in the world, the others being Chinese owned companies, while today’s legacy ICE CEOs enjoy their retirement plans.

Andy

Ooh! I’m looking forward to the announcement for those 20 new gigafactories, and associated battery plants!

Where are they getting the $60 Billion to build them though?

The first announcements will have to be very soon, as they need to start building them and it takes 3-5 years (their own timelines) to do so. That means around 10 more announced in the next year or so.

(In case you hadn’t guessed, building cars takes a bit more capital and time than building small electronics. 8-10 million cars a year will require a HUGE amount of capital, significant amount of effort and a significantly larger planning and infrastructure team). It also makes you question why Tesla would aim to do that? Do they want to be a smaller volume manufacturer making cars with high markups (a premium vehicle manufacturer like BMW), or do they want to be high volume low markup manufacturer like Toyota? Currently their business model is for former, why become the latter if they don’t need to be?

Pushmi-Pullyu

Building a large factory and fine-tuning it for mass production takes only about 2 years, not the 3+ you’re claiming. Tesla certainly does not have to start building 20 new Gigafactories in the next year, or even the next 5 years, to achieve a remarkable growth over the span of 10 years. You need to study a few graphs showing exponential growth; you seem to be thinking only of linear growth.

And I will be very surprised if in 10 years, Tesla isn’t at least as big as Ford is now. You seem to be very deliberately ignoring the fact that Tesla is growing fast and shows absolutely no signs of slowing its exponential growth.

Some Guy

Exactly! Especially as they have now reached a state of rapid growing while making a profit on the side.

Some Guy

Well, according to the publically revealed plans, the Munro teardown and that famous shortseller who switched to the Long side recently, Tesla is on a path to become a high volume high margin manufacturer. And 8-10 million cars could be made with a mere 8 GFs fully built out to approx. 100 GWh capacity, assuming a pack size of 75 kWh average. Add two more for storage and semi, than you are at 1 TWh. To put this into perspective, to fully electrify transport at a rate of 100 Million vehicles per year, 6-10 TWh battery capacity is all the world needs. As per the famous interview with diCaprio, 100 GFs is all the world needs to go off FF for good.
The battery material plants will be constructed by the vendors eager to cater for a billion dollar customer, and Panasonic will gladly make billions of cells for a resonable profit.

Udi

Kia, Hyundai, Nissan and Renault would still be selling lots of cars in 10 years.
And I do believe VW will be as well.

For now, the Chinese are only selling in China.

Some Guy

The thing about the Chinese is, they have money and are eager to spend it, for e.g., established western companies in need of said money, or simply by hostile takeover. Think about famous brands Volvo, Rover, Jaguar (okay, that one is Indian, but same principle).
A few months back, Geely wanted a stake in Daimler and asked nicely. They were sent away and told by Daimler officials:”If you want a piece, get it at the stock market like everyone else!”. So Geely bought almost 10% of Daimler stock and have a seat on the board now.
Companies who drag their feet and climg to ICE will become easy targets over the next years, especially the ones listed at the stock exchange.

Henry

When Elon Musk finally produces the Teslaquila, VW will buy them and give each of their EV customers a bottle to remind them they have a Tesla “quila”, or anything close to a real Tesla.

I would recommend Musk trademark the “ICEquila” name, bottle it and give one to each Tesla customer. Let’s have an ICEquila shot.

Leptoquark

“Here we come very strong now”. LOL, that’s great. In a way, he’s right in that VW has so many tools and resources, a strong leadership position in EV’s is theirs to loose. For now, I’ll turn down the volume on their many press releases and check what’s on my local VW dealers lot occasionally when I go by.

Let’s see some metal on the road.

leafowner

I needed a good laugh to start the weekend!!

Clive

I think Volkswagen got the year wrong.

That isn’t happening.

fasterthanonecanimagine

Sure. And by 2023, VW’s electric cars will match Tesla at quarter price, have 2000 miles of range, and reload in 2 seconds. You will get whatever you wish for but please please don’t buy a Tesla now.

Hauer

If he would held accountable it would soon be “FORMER VW brand chief” Herbert Diess.

WTF is he thinking when talking about half the price?
“that can do anything like Tesla”?
ROFL.

All I can say is go for it. Because by the time VW has a EV for sale, a $30k Model 3 will be available, and VW will need to offer a $15k 210 mile EV. That would be fantastic. Game On!

Lou Grinzo

And I am here to claim, with approximately the same probability of being accurate, that by 2020 I will be King of Canada.

Some Guy

Well, you could marry a female member of the British royal family, and with some weird coincidences get all others in the line of succession removed. Then she would become queen, which woulc make you king, but you would still be called prince.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Perhaps for the British royal family, but last time I looked, Canada has neither a King nor a Queen. If you do mean the British royal family, well Queen Elizabeth II is the Queen of the United Kingdom and the British Commonwealth, not the Queen of Canada.

Some Guy

True. But she is depicted on the Canadian coins.

William

So, we should expect that The ‘King Louie G.’ coin series, will be Minted rather soon, if not EVentually?

David

I think Elizabeth II is titled the queen of Canada separate from the UK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada

Francis L

You wish VW. Before saying how good you will be in the futur, try to be somewhere near okay in the present.

Some Guy

They got the first step right so: Be totally not okay in the past….

Billy Gomes

so going off of VW’s most optimistic estimates, they will sell 150k BEV’s in 2020 that will be half the price of Tesla, in the same year Tesla will be up to about 300-400k model 3’s that year, on top of Tesla Semi, Roadster, and Model Y hitting volume production that year. not to mention consistent 100k x’s and s’ yearly. I think VW has the most ambitious plans of the legacy ICE makers but I don’t think they will beat any of Tesla’s American sales numbers… let alone production numbers.

groingo

Blaa, Blaa, Blaa, VW, put up or shut up.

Texas Leaf

VW was required to spend $2B on a charging network across America but they were NOT required to install a network of ultra fast 350 kW chargers. It’s hard for me to believe that VW would go above and beyond like this without a plan to exploit these chargers. If VW or any automotive manufacturer can build long range BEVs that can that can charge at these ultra fast speeds and are price comparable to ICE vehicles, they will stand the automotive industry on its’ ear.

Pedro

Lol, by 2020 they will say 2025

BEVfan

They didn’t change the timeline since announcibg it first, so what are you trying to say? Because Musk changes timelines every month, everyone should do the same?

Pushmi-Pullyu

Tesla’s timelines slip maybe 6-12 months, or sometimes even as much as two years from early predictions, but Tesla does eventually deliver on what it promises.

Contrariwise, VW’s EV promises…

Time keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping… into the future…

Amt

Every One At Tesla Is Shaking In Their Boots , By Now ! …..lol 🙂

Texas Leaf

Maybe they should be. The Tesla Supercharger network is quickly being outclassed by the Electrify America network. Tesla is going to have to completely rebuild the Supercharger network and upgrade vehicle charging systems or face mass exodus of clients wanting faster charging speeds.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

EA will be clogged with slow charging EV’s……..eventually………lol
There isn’t a non tesla EV sold in massive numbers yet to that can use the fastest charge rate, not even at 100kW.

Jason

Supposedly you can change from 400V to 800V and effectively use the same cabling. Tesla is the only car that users 3 pins for AC & DC, so maybe they are really smart and will be able to upgrade/change their charges from 400V to 800V and effectively instantly double the charge rate.
Apart from the Taycan, the reality is every other model coming to market is setup for about 100kW charging, which is right where Tesla has been at for many years. There is this idea that you have to charge on the same time frame as a petrol car, or better. After you own and drive an EV you quickly realise it is a different situation and maybe that sort of charging is very rarely need. Probably for the vast majority of users installing 3.3kW or 7kw EVSE everywhere cars park would be a better solution.
I guess we will see what Tesla can do.

Andy

What will be really interesting in the future is how Tesla integrate CCS charging systems into their new cars.

They are a member of the group so presumably have plans to, AND it would be silly not to allow their own vehicles to use Superchargers and another network that will be bigger than their own (because it’s an open standard installed by many companies).

Pushmi-Pullyu

We can hope that eventually there will be a 3rd party, for-profit super-fast charging network that will dwarf Tesla’s Supercharger system, but that’s going to be at least several years in coming, and more likely a decade or even more.

In the meantime, Tesla is going to continue building out its Supercharger network far faster than anybody else, and that most definitely includes Electrify America, whose growth is almost certainly going to come to an abrupt halt when the fixed amount of funding runs out.

Get Real

LMFAO at long-time serial anti-Tesla TexLeaf who has been raving here on InsideEvs against Tesla’s ground breaking SC system for years now!

Dude, do you even understand that Tesla’s SC system is brilliantly engineered because they are modular and each individual SC unit can be easily expanded by adding more of 10KW Rectifiers which are the same ones used in the cars?

https://www.quora.com/How-does-the-Tesla-Supercharger-work

Pushmi-Pullyu

He’s pretty deep in denial, that’s for sure!

Some Guy

Well, the thing is: Tesla’s can always charge at SC, while others can’t. Some of the Tesla’s even charge for free.
Also, Tesla’s can charge (using adapters) at basically any public charging network if they pay like every other car. The non-brand related for profit charging networks would be stupid to send away a Tesla in need of a charge, as those big batteries mean profit.

Andy

No they can’t. There’s no CCS adaptor for any current Tesla car, and a CHAdeMO adaptor is only available for the S and X, not the 3.

Sure, they can all plug into Level 2 chargers, but that’s not really the same is it.

Some Guy

And the fact that there is no adapter yet does mean that there never ever will be one?

Pushmi-Pullyu

Wow! Can I have a hit off whatever you’re smokin’, dude?

Tony Marco

“VW Claims By 2020, Its Electric Cars Will Match Tesla At Half Price”

So in 14 months and 6 days, we’re going to see the dawn of a NEW age (VWs for less than $20k), or just more BS from VW!

I’m betting on more BS!

Loboc

BS is cheaper than losing $20k on each car they sell. 🙂

Ron Miljkovich

What’s not to like there’s so much demand for EV’s. Building a comparable EV that matches the TM3 $36,000 price would be great. Building one for half the price though, I’ll have to see it to believe it.

westcoaster

I’d much rather see claims like this rather than “it’s impossible to match Tesla”. Bring on the competition and lower costs!!! Even if it’s only 25% cheaper, its win/win for the EV market.

King

The difference between VW and Tesla is that Tesla is out to make the best product possible and keep the price affordable while VW is out to make the cheapest product possible and keep the product acceptable. Look for something more like a Leaf than a Model 3. Also, keep it mind that VW has no experience manufacturing batteries large scale and they have no experience making electric motors large scale.

Udi

46K (cheapest Tesla as of now), or even the promised 35K base price Model 3, is not very affordable.

There are many people buying 15-20K new cars in the world, although I’m not sure about the US market.

The world is pretty big, and US is currently just 16% of the new car sales, and this market share is shrinking every year.

Andy

You say that like it’s a bad thing? If the cheapest EV is $35k then they are not going to ever catch on. There need to be $20-30k longer range EV’s as that’s the main price segment for ICE sedans.

It’s great and all making 3.5s 0-60 vehicles with gull wing doors (etc.) but at $45-150k they’re not going to get much traction with the majority of buyers.

https://mediaroom.kbb.com/average-new-car-prices-jump-2-percent-march-2018-suv-sales-strength-according-to-kelley-blue-book

AP

They’ll say anything to keep you from buying an ev now. More VW bs.

SJC

Big talk, these guys are still trying to find batteries.

Some Guy

It was a German interview. The logical explanation would be that he was not thinking US pricing, but German one, and expecting a Model 3 with many options to be like 50-60 k€ including VAT. The VW alternative will then be 25-30 k€ and win big on the things that count, like having more buttons on the dashboard, a VW logo (which has two letters instead of a single T), and no supercharger network. Also, people having reserved a Model 3 in Europe in 2016 have to wait three years or more to get it. VW will work hard to have their EV customers wait even longer…

Andy

For most buyers a cheap, reliable vehicle of the right size and form factor to them is far more important than many of the things that Tesla hold dear (performance etc).

Nothing to do with buttons on the dash, much more to do with a narrower vehicle that fits well in European streets, while allowing them to comfortably carry their kid and a dog. Something that’s cheap to run and repair. That’s why things like the Ford Fiesta and VW Golf are so popular, and large sedans are not so.

Some Guy

Always the narrower European streets. Some old city centers in medieval towns qualify for that maybe, usually closed off for traffic anyway. The other roads are just fine, as evident by the SUV craze. If a class 8 garbage truck can go through a street (which is kinda mandatory), so can any passenger vehicle including a Tesla. If there was a problem with narrow streets and parking, people would go for the Japanese kei-cars. They don’t even sell around here.

Nono13

In France there’s narrow streets everywhere. It’s not like you can’t access the vast majority of them with a big car. It’s just that it’s really annoying.

Like big people can drive small cars but a bigger car is more comfortable, particularly for them.

scott

VW is the Donald Trump of automakers.

Robert

And I am Mother Theresa

tko

very cute white car. I’d name mine wall-e 🙂

MoMac

That Electrek quote about “do anything like Tesla” may be wrong.

I just watched the video. The English subtitles in Diess quote about Tesla state, “They can all cost Tesla or better, and half.” It’s broken English, but the subtitles don’t say what Electrek quoted.
I heard the German word Kosten (meaning cost) before he said Tesla, so it looks like the subtitles are more accurate than Electrek. That is, the word “better” applied to the cost, not the vehicle as a whole.

Mr. Loveday, don’t trust Fred on translations (unless he translating French).

Link below. The Topic of the week video. It’s at the 45 minute time, around 45:20.

https://www.zdf.de/politik/maybrit-illner

Rolando

Thanks for the link , this H. Diess quote is from minute 45 :
“” …. die alles können wie Tesla oder besser – und die Hälfte kosten”” translation = ‘which can do everything like Tesla or better – and cost only half’.

John

“60% of the time, it works EVERY time.” (Enough talk, VW)

Jimi seko

Are we supposed to be impressed that VW has already spent 30 billion on “electromobility”? Imagine where Tesla would be now if they had already invested 30 gigadollars!

Some Guy

They obviously count in the settlements in the US that are to be used for electromobility, and all the development, parts and production cost for every (PH)EV ever made by the VW group.

James

I hope they are right, but I know they are not.

Ron M

I hope VW doesn’t get into trouble for stock manipulation.

Richard Giddens

Let’s see how Electrify America and it’s charging stations do to compliment VW’s ambitious electirfication plans. The stations shoild be ready, many high power.