Volkswagen Questions Future Of Diesel, Admits Electrification Will Be Easier, Cheaper

Volkswagen

JUN 29 2016 BY ERIC LOVEDAY 39

C'mon More Clean Diesel Technology!

Clean Diesel?

Volkswagen anticipates requirement of 150 GWh of batteries annually by 2025

Volkswagen anticipates requirement of 150 GWh of batteries annually by 2025

The fallout from the Dieselgate Scandal continues…with Volkswagen now intensely focusing on electric cars, perhaps Dieselgate will be what’s need to force a turnaround at VW.

Volkswagen CEO Matthias Mueller has even gone on record now stating that diesel may not be in VW’s future. Could the “clean diesel” engine actually be eliminated from Volkswagen future vehicles? It seems likely. Quoting the CEO:

“Against this background, we have to ask ourselves whether… we want to spend more money on the further development of diesel.”

Mueller says that VW will take a “fundamental” look at diesels, but it seems quite clear that his mind is made up already. Quoting Mueller:

“We have an inkling of what will follow in five or 10 years.”

“It’s clear even today that treating exhaust gas fumes will become very costly and elaborate.”

So, diesel treatment will cost more as emission standards tighten, while at the same time electric car costs will decrease, admits Mueller.

It seems Volkswagen’s all-in electric car approach is both necessary and will be beneficial to the automaker in the long run.

Source: Nation

Categories: Volkswagen

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39 Comments on "Volkswagen Questions Future Of Diesel, Admits Electrification Will Be Easier, Cheaper"

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Notice how they all of a sudden embrace electric cars? It’s almost like they had a judgement of billions if dollars handed down to them by a government…

I guess it was a wakeup call. Even if they would never sell a diesel in the US again, diesel would still be a big market globally.

The desition to discontinue development is a big step for VW.

Amazing to hear this from the company who, over the past 3 years, has publicly stated they want to be the world leader in EVs. They might just get off their a– and do this… maybe.

But first, ladies and gents, let’s cancel the Jetta Hybrid:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagen-jetta-hybrid-cancelled-for-2017-wont-be-part-of-vws-electrified-future/

Evidently, the 30k “Jetta” was so much more than the 20k version, it didn’t sell. It reminds me of how Honda took its series Hybrid and added ~$10,000 to the price, for the same car w/~7-8kwh more battery. The ~$40k Accord PHEV then didn’t sell well, either.

The narrative (in the age of the $200/kwh): “People just don’t want electric cars”. Please FCA, don’t do this to the Pacifica.

You could have replaced “Honda” by “Ford” in your comment. It is almost like these companies would rather have you not buy a hybrid.

Except the CMax/Fusion Energi premium over the Hybrid is under $5k. Incidentally, it qualifies for a $4k tax credit (not the whole $7500, because the battery is too small). So the net difference is near zero. The trade-off instead is in loss of trunk space (which the Accord also had). In fact, Ford has been putting money on the hood of Energi’s, making them cheaper than the Hybrid version.

Besides its your wife’s favorite car ever. See you Sunday.

It’s also because many cities at least in Europe are restricting diesel vehicles steps by steps based on emissions. In a few years, all diesel cars and trucks will be banned from big cities. So why buying a diesel if you have to stay out of the city?
For example in France diesel market went from 73% in 2012, down do 52% now. And the trend is accelerating.

Exactly.

Why should VW spend the money to fix the problem with so-called “clean diesels”, when they are fast becoming obsolete anyway?

Far better to spend their R&D money, and their retooling investments, in developing plug-in EVs… which definitely are the future of automobiles.

VW will be required to contribute $2 billion (yes, with a B) to a fund that will be used to support green initiatives in transportation.

Potentially, $2 billion (not to be used on any current or future VW projects and no proprietary stuff either) will be available for installing charging stations in the U.S.

How many QC stations can be built using $2 billion? I’ve seen $50k thrown around, but that info is from 2 years ago. Even if each QC station cost $50k to install, that would mean up to 40,000 stations could be built using the VW money.

For reference, there are 655 Supercharging stations and 3,966 SC stalls in the US.

Supercharger sites seem to quite around $150 for 8 stalls (4 Supercharger cabinets serving 2 spots each). That’d be 13,333.

That’d stop any comments about lack of coverage.

That’d be $150k of course.

Dual head 50 kW DCFC unit itself might be $50K (25 kW CCS only is under $10K). But include red tape + trench cabling, I read it’s closer to $200K. It would be nice for the gov’t to pick up the tab for part of that, at least all of the red tape cost.

Bro, Sorry to go OT, but do you have a TDI and thoughts on the number given, if so?

The late info-nuggets yesterday, were:

-a stepped up recall rate of 85%, which will not compensate those keeping their cars a dime until fixed or ~2018/19. (Ripping exhausts off these cars in (most) non-CARB states is rampant).

-The compensation amount is buried in the price VW offers, which is supposed to be at least $5,100 more than market value (In my case, that’s exactly what it looks like).

-There is still no fix, for Gen 1 cars. VW has proposed beefing up the NOx trap (which will now eat diesel, to do its job). Means no SCR in the plan, for over 300k of the ~487k cars. They will still not comply with Tier 2 bin 5 (.07gr/mi), as proposed, and VW is expecting to lean on funding other remediation.

-EPA will not allow export, or resale of cars they do not approve.

Busy day, yesterday, as owners figured out values from VW’s charts. -lots of links w/in the link below.

What’s beautiful is our “masters of the head-fake” probably would have had a chance thwarting CAFE and Euro standards, because of cheap oil. Diesel-gate has made that mountain a lot steeper for the whole industry.

Beyond the 10 billion for buybacks, 2 billion is to go to what VW of America says, “invest in chargers and other infrastructure for zero emission vehicles.” Not sure how much additional NOx mitigation funding comes out of this amount, but it is the more efficient use of funds, that CARB’s sign-on letter (w/Musk) asked for.
https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/

Once the government gets their hands on the $2 billion you can be confident that one hundred million of it will go where it supposed to. The rest will simply evaporator into “administrative cost”.

Unfortunately, you are probably right. What would be best is to find a consortium of EV enthusiasts and give them the money to install infrastructure. Seriously, that would be my dream job. Pay me the regular annual salary I make now, and have my full time job to go around the Dallas/Ft.Worth area and find the best locations for infrastructure, and get it installed.

That research has all ready been done by a mega-corp with years of analytical research and the best minds available to them=install them next to a newer McDonalds. 🙂

More like Denny’s and waffle house.

Dieselgate: accelerating the wakeup call for a shift away from fossil fuels, processing petroleum for products that get burned up to move people around.

I feel VW should give the option of a brand new e Golf in exchange for a Dieselgate vehicle. This would get the VW EV’s rolling out.

Anyone else agree with me?

Would be a great idea! Or at least a 5k bonus, if they use their trade in money for a VW EV.

Good publicity, keeping the customers and maybe even no direct loss.

It would help if VW would allow sale of eGolf outside of CARB states. As it is, in the vast majority of states, VW wont allow the eGolf to be sold or serviced.

I am still completely flabbergasted by the massive Dieselgate scandal.

It is quite an indication of how hard it is to get people/industries to change their ways.

Agreed.

vw seems to have a diesel subculture within its organization because it has had a commitment to diesel for several decades. the only diesel car that i have ever owned was a vw.

the main advantage of diesel over gasoline was higher fuel economy. 35 or 40 years ago this was more of a big deal when you had surging gasoline prices. but these days the technology has advanced such that you get much better fuel economy with gasoline cars.

but i guess the diesel subculture within vw has sought to continue to refine the diesel engine long after other automakers have abandoned diesel. as i read this article, it seems that vw is reconsidering its culture.

i think that the wording of this article is *highly* misleading, because what is actually being reported is that vw is reconsidering its commitment to diesel technology. it is not clear to me that vw is going any more “all in” on electrification than is any other major automaker. it’s not like electric vehicles are new to the vw group; after all, the porsche 918 is produced by the porsche subsidiary of the vw group.

Agreed. Most other major mfrs are just dabbling with EVs; VW is no different at the moment.

Their talk of 30 models over 10 years is just talk. Converting their Diesel culture to become an EV culture will be difficult.

Diesel will always be more efficient. Physics. Diesel also has more torque at low RPM.

Clearly the costs of making diesel clean outweigh any advantages. EV is much more efficient and has a much better driving experience due to instant torque from a stop.

Better fuel economy equals lower carbon emissions, hardly an issue that has gone away! And the reason the European regulators decided to push for diesels. Then, when the particulate matter problems started to be widely known, the European makers had a lead in diesel technology and the regulator has been slow to tighten the rules – even now the rules that will apply next year and in 2018-2020 are much laxer with respect to NOx in Europe than in the US.

If voters were paying more attention politicians wouldn’t dare to ignore our health to protect big corporations (and of course the associated jobs) instead…

Gassers look like they have ok mileage when you have hybrids. You could do a diesel hybrid which gets even better mileage.

Diesel has an 8-10% advantage over equivalent technology gasoline due to higher compression ratio and lower pumping losses.

Hybridizing helps gasoline more than diesel, closing a good part of this gap.

Plus, diesel has tried desperately hard to quiet itself down with difuser undertrays, heavier engine covers and more broadly timed ignitions. It’s still loud, and NVH is likely to prevail when it comes to what happens when those watts run out.

Diesel is has 13% more energy by volume than gasoline, so you would expect it to get 13% better mileage anyway.

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf

If I could burn nitromethane in my car, I’d get tremendous “mileage” (until the engine blows up.)

Exactly.
So diesel engine are not that much more efficient than modern direct or stratified injection gas engine with variable valves timing and such.

“Volkswagen CEO Matthias Mueller has even gone on record now stating that diesel may not be in VW’s future. Could the “clean diesel” engine actually be eliminated from Volkswagen future vehicles?”

There have to be a lot of people who work for legacy auto makers who are willing to look at the future realistically. Who aren’t afraid to face the reality that the EV revolution is inevitable; that within a few years, plug-in EVs will be cheaper to make than comparable gasmobiles.

If it took this huge scandal, and enormous fines imposed on VW, to make the company as a whole face up to what many were no doubt saying quietly… then DieselGate will ultimately prove to be the best thing to happen to both Volkswagen and the EV revolution in years.

I realize that it looks like a disaster for VW at present, but if this will force the company to divert to making plug-in EVs, then that will likely prevent the company from going down the path of Eastman Kodak and Blackberry. This may well be what will, in the long term, enable VW to survive the EV revolution. We can be sure that some legacy auto makers won’t.

Diesel for Light Duty Vehicles is dead.

Lots of talk. No action.

VW will follow the rest of the old guard down the ICE market share loss.

Everyone except Tesla is in denial. 5 years will paint the real picture.

Until battery technology can recharge as fast as a 5 minute stop at a fuel pump, EVs will not surpass gas. I’ll race a Tesla from Ohio to Florida in my air cooled Beetle. Battery tech has been around longer than ICE, and it still has the same limitation, capacity. it is much better now, but recharge must be no longer than 10 minutes to full, but preferably 5 or less. Also, what happens to the lithium ion battery after its lifespan? How many miles is that?; under what conditions? When the EVs cost less than an ICE it could be a consideration for basic transportation.
Hybrids have potential. Wife has a Prius C, and it is great appliance. But, until there are 3 pedals, hybrids will remain boring regardless of the low end torque the electric motor provides. For 90% of drivers who really can’t make the emotional connection between man and machine, that is fine. Why not let the car drive for you anyway, or better yet, just ride a bus. But for those of us who care, the TDI engine provided more than numbers can show.

“Against this background, we have to ask ourselves whether… we want to spend more money on the further development of diesel”

humbly offer, I think That was the problem that led to D-Gate in the first place, yes? Clearly some Money needed to be Spent on, I dunno, actually performing -always- as all other manufacturers did regarding NOX particulates?

London and Bejing are coming.. hang on to Der Hiney