Volkswagen Boss: Long-Range (250 To 373-Mile) EV Will Hit Market By 2019

AUG 17 2016 BY MARK KANE 108

Volkswagen Golf GTE Sport concept

Volkswagen Golf GTE Sport concept

Volkswagen will show a near-production electric car at the upcoming Paris Motor Show in early October.

Volkswagen Passat GTE

Volkswagen Passat GTE

And according to the Wirtschafts Woche’s interview with VW brand boss Herbert Diess, we should expect long-range EV the size of a Golf, but the internal space of Passat – something we have seen touted in the likes of the Chevy Bolt EV, as excess (interior cu ft eating) ICE-related componentry is removed – such as center drive-train housing/interior consoles.

Market introduction of this new all-electric model is expected in 2019.

Range on a single charge is said to be between 400-600 km (around 250 to 373 miles). The bad news is that Volkswagen still needs three years for long-range EVs.  Once again, we assume these to be NEDC estimates, so a good “real world”/EPA analog would be 300-450 km (185 to 280 miles).

Herbert Diess hints also few following BEVs – all on the same modular platform:

  • city-SUV
  • coupé
  • small delivery van (deriving from BUDD-e)

The all-electric Phaeton has been shuffled to the back of the queue, and wil be released thereafter.

Source: Wirtschafts Woche via Green Car Congress

Categories: Volkswagen

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108 Comments on "Volkswagen Boss: Long-Range (250 To 373-Mile) EV Will Hit Market By 2019"

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I’ve seen a lot of VW coming attractions related to EVs over the last few years. Still can’t even buy an EV Golf in Alabama. Where’s the EV version of the Microbus they said was coming ~ 8 years ago. Why it’s right around the corner, I tell you. Let’s all cancel our Model 3 preorders so we can buy their puff of smoke.

Hahahahahahahahahaha

Did you try to place an order at the Volkswagen dealership?

You can’t, if you don’t live in a CARB State.

I tried.

If VW had any creativity they would create the..VW.. “VoltsWagen “EV” Division” to concentrate solely on Designing ,engineering & EV’s Exclusively ………..

Based on the NEDC range Tesla are pretty much doing this TODAY!

Did you also say that when Tesla announced the Model 3? “Big deal, the model S is way better!”

Clearly the challenge that everyone has acknowledged is making these things more affordable and at scale.

The difference is that all the other car makers do have the necessary means to make millions of good affordable EVs right now.

“all the other car makers do have the necessary means to make millions of good affordable EVs right now”

Sure – batteries not included.

Batteries included.

That’s not true at all. If it was profitable they’d do it. But nobody is making any money on EVs today. Tesla included – and they are certainly not making any affordable EVs yet, only promised to do so sooner than most (but at least a year after GM).

GM is “Making Profit on EV”s” because with all the Carbon Credits they accumulate from each “compliance” “EV” they Build., Goes Towards Building More “ICE” trucks etc: and allows them to build more & more of the Gas Guzzling Stinky Monster Trucks & SUV’s Where They Make “HUGE PROFITS”…….

Can’t help reading that in a Donald Trump accent.

24% profit on each Tesla S.

Not enough batteries is real because the OEMs do not care to order them in time.

No profit on EVs is propaganda bullsh*t. ANY car built in small numbers won’t turn out any profit.
Actually, produced in large numbers, BEVs will be more profitable than ICEs.

That’s what Tesla is doing.

“24% profit on each Tesla S.

Not enough batteries is real because the OEMs do not care to order them in time.

No profit on EVs is propaganda bullsh*t. ANY car built in small numbers won’t turn out any profit.
Actually, produced in large numbers, BEVs will be more profitable than ICEs.

That’s what Tesla is doing.”

Maybe you should figure out the difference between gross profit and net profit first.

24% gross profit on a $90K+ car says that battery is still expensive.

Despite your contradicting claims that Tesla got the cheapest battery cost by far and automakers got the resources to make it cheaper, battery remains the biggest cost of the EVs..

Actually it’s more like 22% rather than 24%. Far more importantly, it’s not “profit” it’s “gross margin”. Gross margin is the difference between what the car costs to assemble and what it sells for. It doesn’t cover all kinds of expenses, including development, warranty repairs, marketing, sales, or overhead. If you’ve ever filled out a Schedule C, it would be the difference between cost of goods sold and selling price.

Once you account for these things Tesla loses money. Not sure what the numbers are off the top of my head, but it’s over a billion a year. Now this doesn’t mean Tesla loses money on every car, which I’ve seen be said, but it does mean Tesla does lose and has lost a ton of dough. And there isn’t any end of this in sight. Bottom line: Tesla doesn’t make a profit and certainly doesn’t make a profit on every car it sells.

“Gross margin is the difference between what the car costs to assemble and what it sells for. It doesn’t cover all kinds of expenses, including development, warranty repairs, marketing, sales, or overhead.”

I see you’re once again spouting anti-Tesla FUD B.S. in the hope that your readers don’t know better. Tesla’s gross profit margin includes all its ongoing expenses of making and selling the cars, including marketing, sales, and overhead. Now, you’re correct to say it doesn’t include development costs, and I dunno about warranty costs.

Quoting from Investopedia:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gross profit is a company’s total revenue (equivalent to total sales) minus the cost of goods sold. Gross profit is the profit a company makes after deducting the costs associated with making and selling its products, or the costs associated with providing its services.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/grossprofit.asp

“If it was profitable they’d do it.”
It’s not profitable only because we pay for dealers, repairs, maintenance and early replacements of the complex and fragile ICE systems.

We are the ones paying for the inefficiency of archaic Internal Explosion Engines

If what you said was true, then the cost of batteries wouldn’t matter.

But it most certainly does matter. The high cost of batteries is the main reason why the EV revolution is, at present, only very slowly advancing beyond the early adopter stage, and it’s why legacy auto makers can’t make as large a profit on selling EVs as they can on selling gasmobiles.

Yeah right, they all have gigantic battery factories hidden somewhere…
To make a million EVs with 60kWh battery packs you would need a total of 60gWh of batteries. That is almost double the total production of li-ion batteries of the entire planet for 2015, for example..

Well on the Model 3, since the Model S 100 is now imminent, I think we will be surprised by the most energetic battery option of the Model 3. If the base Model 3 has 50 KWh, the best battery could come at 80 KWh, which considering the lower KWh/mile consumption of the 0.21 Cd Model 3, could mean a longer range than the Model S 100. If Model S 100 comes above 300 miles (at 75 mph) the Model 3 80 could get to 400 miles (at 75 mph). That, needless to say, would be a fantastic surprise.

I think Elon Musk said in Gigafactory opening event that new cells (2170) for S/X cars will begin to be produced there in 9 months and we know that Model 3 will have these new cells. So, after the last batch of 18650 cells that will be put in the new 100 kWh S and X very soon, we can assume that further battery pack for these cars will be with these new cells that are taller than 18650 but they will fit in actual S and X platform because of new arrangement for the entire battery pack. As the width of these new cells only slightly bigger than for the 18650, we can assume that Tesla will be able to put as many new cells in these packs than the actual ones. So, we can assume that these future battery packs for S and X will have 20% to 30% more energy than the upcoming 100 kWh pack. Then, if the 100 kWh pack will give a 320 miles range for S and 280 miles range for X, the future packs would be able to have something like 120 kWh. In my opinion, at the time of the first… Read more »

Around 50 KWh for the base Model 3 would be expected but only 70 KWh for the top level Model 3 battery would actually be a deception. That is really too low for the highest battery option. 75 KWh would do, 80 KWh would be great, more would be Ludicrous but 70 KWh would be too short.
The Model 3 is 20% smaller than the Model S, so its battery should be about 20% smaller too. A 120 KWh Model S would then mean a 100 KWh Model 3. A 70 KWh Model 3 would mean a 20 % scaled down version of a Model S 85 KWh which is not likely since we are already at 90 KWh right now. By 2018 the batteries will have improved so the S will be closer to your 120 KWh scenario and the 3 closer to the corresponding 100 KWh scenario.

Balancing it all, I would bet 80 KWh with the very first Model 3 sales on the west coast, 85 KWh by the time the Model 3 hits European shores, still more later on about when it arrives in Australia.

Whatever Tesla decides on for the capacity of its Model ≡ packs, I can’t see them providing more range in the top M≡ than in the top MS/MX. They’re not going to sabotage the sales of their more expensive cars by giving less expensive cars more range.

Really they can talk of future plans I’m already in my second Tesla and unable to keep up with the constant upgrades, WV is just an illusion, nothing to show, I don’t get your comments, perhaps you missed the model 3 presentation, it was real, people were giving a ride.

Stop talking and start doing!

VW does do a good job of talking, don’t they. A few years ago they said they would be the world leader in EVs. Then, eventually, the e-Golf came out and it was a follower — nearly identical specs to the Nissan LEAF.

They had a good EV in the Audi R8, but then that was axed, only to be resurrected when they needed EVs because of dieselgate.

Yeah, I know it takes a while to ramp up these vehicles. Even ICE vehicles on an entirely new platform take some time. But VW’s been working on this for years with very little to show for it. Far from being a “world leader in EVs”.

So VW plans to have a model 3 competitor around the time the model 3 launches (realistically). Tesla gets idolized while VW gets ripped on for daring to talk about their product plans before they actually launch the car, as usual.

Have you noticed how the announcements of upcoming EVs from ICE cars makers take good care to NEVER exceed Tesla specs, ans always anounce them for a relatively distant future?
Wow! Now this is good competion isn’t it 😉

Very often but not always. I think the Audi e-tron quattro SUV was announced with a 95 KWh battery.

We don’t know the specs or the price so your claim is devoid of truth. Then again nearly everything you ever contribute is wide-eyed admiration for Elon Musk or equally unthinking bashing of everything else. NOBODY, Tesla included, have announced as ambitious plans for EVs as VW. Apparently the forum is dominated by Americans, because I can tell you, VW isn’t viewed with such disdain in Europe. And objectively, I’d say the feeling this side of the pond is rather better founded. Yes, VW cheated and that’s deplorable. So did everyone else, although possibly within the law. But have you seen the report from Emission Analytics, discussing the most comprehensive emissions data set ever published? Rather ironically, not only do 97% of all cars have much higher real-world emissions than the legal (lab-test) limit, but of the six cars that were within the Euro-6 standard, FIVE were from the VW group (a BMW being the only exception). Tesla obviously doesn’t have a huge existing ICE-business to cannibalize. So other car makers have different incentives. This makes them no more evil than any individual traveling on a vacation or driving when they could bike or take a bus. If you say… Read more »

The problem I have with VW is that they have a track record of announcing amazing things and not delivering. For this reasons, I don’t necessarily see those “ambitious plans” as genuine. Time will tell.

VW has an absolutely dismal history of announcing electrified that never come to market. Far worse than Tesla, in fact.

I have a Portuguese car magazine from 2009 and a French magazine from 2010 with Audi R8 E-Tron full electric promised for 2012 and Audi Q6 full electric for 2014… But we will forgive Audi, after all, they are a far youngest car maker than Tesla, with very tiny experience in big assembly lines of mass production cars, little engineer work force and investments capabilities compare to Tesla…

If you don’t consider consciously wreaking havoc on the global climate and poisoning of the city air, our lungs and our brains evil…

“Then again nearly everything you ever contribute is wide-eyed admiration for Elon Musk ”

Well if there is only one company really commited to cleaning our climate while giving us the best cars there is, it is normal to praise them.

Musk IS a genius. Engineer, programmer, inventor, marketeer, entrepreneur. He IS an exceptional human being as Edison, Da Vinci and Jobs were.

and finance… 😉

Yes I agree and I do from the European side of the pond, so there is apparently a multitude of thinking here as well. Now I think there is worse than VW, like for instance PSA (a Total oil company partner) or Fiat (+Chrysler) and even Toyota under Akio Toyoda. At VW the new directorate is somewhat more open to ev, contrary to Ferdinand Piëch who was really against it up to the his last day as head of the group.

‘VW isn’t viewed with such disdane in Europe.’

Really, ok, in that case they have been ‘happily fined’ there also.

The latest scam with the Audi V6 diesel will no doubt lead to more ‘happy fines’.

Decades ago, I had a high opinion of VW. Now all I hear is cars that are super-unreliable, and nothing made that I can’t get anywhere else at 5% less.

I think that 2018 is when the volume figures will hit. I’m sure that it will take much of 2018 to get through that ludicrous backlog of reservations. Makes me wonder if people will line up by the thousands in stores all over the globe to pre-order a VW electric. I think I know one die-hard VW driver who might, provided the range figure was there.

If this WV gets to the US before Tesla get the Model 3 out the door, Tesla will have gone out of business.

There is no way Tesla can deliver the first Model 3s later than summer 2018 without going bankrupt. Excluding the chance that Tesla is bought out before then.

All of this of course being based on your detailed analysis that you chose not to share with any of us.

Very interesting for us all to read what your gut feel is!

As a token shareholder of TSLA, I do review Tesla’s quarterly earnings statements, mostly focusing on the cash flow and cash on hand. Tesla is currently sitting on $3.2 billion. Tesla used roughly $3 billion in cash in the 6 quarters leading up to Model X delivery, but never allowed their cash on hand to go below $1 billion. The $1 billion level is pretty much what is needed to run the company (extremely efficient for vertically integrated auto company). If Tesla can cut their burn rate in half, with Model S and X running at full production now (so paying for some of the development and tooling). It is optimistic considering how much of Gigafactory and 3 production line needs to be completed, but possible. That gives Tesla 8 quarters from right now before they cross the $1 billion cash level. Maybe they can raise another $500 million round to bridge like Tesla did in August 2015 with the X, but that still only buys them a couple more quarters. A late 2019 initial delivery would mean major cost overruns, and raising money on very unfavorable terms. Maybe you misinterpreted my comment as expecting this to happen. I don’t… Read more »

This is still optimistic because Model 3 needs more investment that Model X, which is on the same platform as Model S. Both for the new platform and for a new production line, because it cannot be built on the existing production line for Model S/X.
Also there is no guarantee that Model S/X sales will hold up for 2 more years. Starting next quarter there will be more competition (Chevy Bolt/BMW i3) and next year eGolf with more range. In Europe Tesla sales are falling due to competition from lower range European models that are good enough for most drivers. Also the risk of a global recession is rising due to inflated asset prices and rising living costs despite stupid governments fake low inflation data.

X required new stamping, new paint shop (they made it big enough for 3 also, so that is done), new assembly line, new in house seat production (not originally planned), and a few other screw ups.

The big difference with Model 3 is Gigafactory investment and a 4x assembly line. Model 3 should cost more, but I was giving Tesla the benefit of the doubt that they could actually generate a little cash from S and X.

As far as Tesla sales go, I no longer dare to guess where it will top out. I am still stunned at the level they have gotten to now. Tesla always seems to have another card up their sleeve to keep demand rolling.

Expanded retail presence is probably going to be the key this year. But 100 kWh and AutoPilot 2.0 might get current owners to replace Model Ss as they head toward end of warranty.

The cars you mention are no real competition for the Model S. They don’t even compare on something basic like overall length, even less on ev range. I don’t see a competition to the Model S for at least half a decade more. There will be more competition to the newer Model X than the Model S. As for the Model 3, there is no reason it would be late just because the Model X was late. It could even be the contrary. The main and only problem of the Model 3 is the huge demand which could increase waiting time for late orders or for the ones in later timed delivery markets like Australia. I simply know of no other car ever that had 400000 orders before production. Even the Golf was generally ordered only after its real start in the showrooms not before its final build was made public. Tesla is clearly super motivated by this situation, even if challenging, and they will do what it takes to make it happen. Elon has been pushing the suppliers, increase manufacturing capacity, hiring car production specialists, advancing gigafactory and the likelihood of on time delivery is this time much higher… Read more »

I think if Tesla stops making factories all over the place, they will stop burning so much cash. Growth costs…

I may agree that Tesla fanboys are most active EV haters as long as EV doesn’t have Tesla badge.

But on the other hand, VW really deserves being “ripped on”. After all, they look like criminal organization, conspired to cheat everybody on emissions, what else they deserve? They didn’t even made and paid all their settlements yet. I wonder how much money they will have left for R&D when everything is cleared. When they’ll find that they have no money left, what other desperate cheats and shortcuts they will try?

Everyone is cheating on emissions. On average consumption is 30% higher than reported for ICE vehicles of any kind – and hence so are the emissions numbers.

Emissions Anytics has published the most comprehensive data set on emissions from cars in Europe. 97% of cars emit way above the legal (lab-test based) limit. Only six cars on the market stay within Euro-6 limits in real use, and those were one BMW and five cars from the VW group (one Audi, one Skoda and three VWs).

It’s obviously important for a regulator to punish cheaters who didn’t obey the law. All the cheaters who followed the law, or at least haven’t been revealed to break it, but absolutely broke the INTENTION of the law (by passing lab tests fully aware that they are nowhere near in real world conditions) are as morally palpable as VW, there’s just no mandate to punish them.

The true failure is with the regulator who is only now beginning to come to the realization that they need to actually verify if the POINT with the regulation is being fulfilled – to regulate and test what cars emit in actual, real world use.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/23/diesel-cars-pollution-limits-nox-emissions

Very good, thoughtful documented responses. Thank you for sharing your point of view. Refreshing

But that we know off VW is the only one to have, on purpose, engineered a software to dissimulate true engine exhaust values. Perhaps other companies have above legal exhaust values but they never made a dedicated cheating software.

Of course they pass emissions. The test lasts 20 minutes. At 22 minutes all the emissions are shut off.

You are claiming that everyone was cheating but in the original on road testing that revealed VW diesel cheating, it has some VW diesels and BMW diesel, and BMW was fine. So is everyone cheating or not everyone? This kind of nihilistic argument is frequently used to justify any crime. E.g., everybody is not showing turn signals, so everybody is breaking the law, so it must be ok to speed while drunk or just shoot somebody. No, it is NOT ok and it is NOT the same. There are different crimes of completely different severity. Intentional disabling of emission control and exceeding limits many times is not the same as real world results exceeding lab emissions, because European testing cycle is out of touch with real world. It is problem with the test regime, not cheating. Basically Europeans don’t care so much about NOx emissions, so the Euro# tests are loose and they have what they have as result. I don’t think it is news for anybody that Euro# lab test do not try to match real world emissions – I doubt it was even intended, and I doubt any automaker is testing for some real world emissions or know… Read more »

I disagree that Tesla owners are EVs haters, the hard comments are against the compliance or ridiculous EVs by companies with zillion cash money that may come up with a realt competition for Tesla, serious companies that believe in EVs and can do better, Nissan Leave, I3, Bolt let’s see if is not just a compliant car. I would love to se a BMW that is not fugly goes for 200 miles plus, signed me in.

Exactly. It’s taken Tesla to force companies with deep pockets to even make any EV, let alone something to compete with the products that Tesla makes.

It would be funny if it weren’t so tragic.

It is plain silly, Nissan released Leaf before Model S.
E.g. Nissan isn’t in some greenwashing share pumping and dumping scheme, and obviously they didn’t make a “green” $100k vanity car that doesn’t make sense for environment. You don’t help environment by promoting oversized and overweight cars that emit just as much PM from tire wear as regular small diesel, and that takes as much resources/money (that is equal POLLUTION) to make one as 4 normal size cars. It is just arrogant hype and greenwashing.

Tesla didn’t “forced” anybody to do anything. CARB and other similar regulations in different countries forced automakers to go for plugin hybrids and battery cars, and battery technology that advanced thanks DOE funded research made longer distance battery cars more or less possible. Tesla didn’t contributed a single dollar to DOE research programs, just milked dollars from subsidy programs intended to promote cars that are environmentally friendly for real.

I don’t see Tesla fanboys (fangirls) as active EV haters but more as pragmatic people that compare the bare facts. Model S is way above on all accounts. Acceleration, size, top speed, ev range, looks. It is all in favor of Tesla. Other electrics propose basic performances (Leaf) or even only 4 seats in sub sedan format (BMW i3), not even to talk about the Superchargers advantage. Renault and Coda tried to propose a sedan ev but Renault started from an unconvincing conversion and Coda proposed a car that didn’t look that good and above all didn’t deliver a lasting product and only to a very limited market.
So after all that, I don’t think Tesla fanboys or fangirls are rough to other ev but simply looking around with eyes wide open and seeing nothing that comes close.

Sure, just make everybody buy 100k vanity car. It must work really well :/

No, VW gets ripped for JUST talking. Right now there’s some serious trust issues with them. Not only with the nefarious crap they pulled, but also with their ‘always around the corner’ electric vehicle pronouncements.

Time for some ACTION Jackson!

But they’re already one of the largest sellers of plug in vehicles in Europe, so clearly they do more than just talk. As for an affordable 200-mile+ range EV, they’re not significantly better or worse than any other manufacturer except GM (which from the looks of it will beat Tesla to the punch by a wide margin, despite not getting anywhere near the same admiration).

Well GM also has its own past baggage to deal with. I personally dislike their efforts to stifle Tesla(Although things may not be as they appear on that front). If the Bolt turns out to be a good car, I believe the “admiration” will come naturally.?

Tesla has delivered, VW has defrauded. Not just with promises of plug-ins, but actual fraud. But forget that for a second, VW also doesn’t even regard nitrogen oxides as a pollutant! If they don’t do that, is there even a stitch of environmental care this company has for carbon dioxide? Ask yourself.

VW denied in writing, to Fortune, that NOx represents any proven health threat. “The scientific data currently known to us does not give a clear picture of the effect of nitrogen oxide in environmental concentrations on people and no completely validated statements can be made about the actual risk potential.”
http://fortune.com/inside-volkswagen-emissions-scandal/

If we handicap the resources of a start-up against the ones of VW, what you are suggesting becomes even more absurd.

They are EV sellers, but lack of trust is what makes them the target. I’m not going to cry for them, the lack of trust is self inflicted. I don’t trust them either, company culture doesn’t change quickly and doesn’t change just because of some huge fines.

“…VW gets ripped on for daring to talk about their product plans before they actually launch the car, as usual.”

No, VW gets “ripped on” for its constant habit of announcing new EVs and not following through with that. For example, how many times did VW announce the BUDD-e was going into production, and failed to follow through?

Tesla gets praised for usually following through on what they promised… even if they’re always late.

The upcoming Paris Motor Show will be fun 🙂

/this

No question this will be the best show season for EVs we have ever had by a long shot. There is a lot of good stuff planned, and also new product sitting ‘just behind the curtain’

…and we aren’t talking about concepts that are 2-3 years out. Ready to go product. I know we are excited to cover the upcoming shows…which has not always been the case in the past, lol.

But is the new LEAF in the mix?!? For me, that’s the biggest question mark. But there could be several positive surprises in store for me since I don’t really know what to expect!

Keep your eye on Nissan at Paris !

Anyone who tells you electric drive isnt fit for luxury cars, is making a chump out of you. But they sure appreciate your punching their meal ticket. Your choice.

With their capacity of production, a big group like VW could do what is done when a really innovating and compelling product is poised to be offered in large number, in order to start the rush : Losing some money for the first tens of thousands of units, creating a “coolness” and a desire among customers(helped with an adequate marketing campaign), than starting making a lot of money as the scale economy kicks in and sell millions.

Elon Musk (and myself) would be delighted to see BIG CAR seriously competing (at last!) to replace ICE cars and accelerate the abandon of hydrocarbon burning.

Let’s hope it’s not P.R. B.S. again and that they are indeed seriously committed this time… The first to do that will get the cigar! 😉
2019 is not really serious though… *eyes roll*

“when a really innovating and compelling product is poised to be offered in large number, in order to start the rush : Losing some money for the first tens of thousands of units, creating a “coolness” and a desire among customers”

The big automakers seem to be perfectly happy with Tesla doing that for them right now.

Have you looked at margins in the car industry? Only some of the Luxury brands have the wiggle room to loose money on the first cars in the series to build their brand (and also that to a very limited extend), the majority of the industry is screwed. VW, Mercedes etc are not Apple or Google with billions in the bank. That’s why everyone was scared of the tech industry entering the market

Not to disagree, but to provide some perspective:

I understand the average new car model makes more or less zero overall profit on its first year of sales.

Why don’t you just do it? It’s such an obvious opportunity to make billions, right? Money is floating around cheaper than ever, so I’m sure you can craft a business plan to demonstrate clearly what a no-brainer it is and attract the required investment. I have no patience left for this childish attitude of corporations supposedly having a duty to save the world. It’s the bloody governments role to protect the commons and the viability of the future. Corporations, as they should, focus on their own business and attempt to make money. They also lobby governments, and this is problematic, but the blame for listening to vested interest again lies with politicians and institutions of government – not primarily with the corporations. If you actually think it’s important, work to change the system. Complaining like a child about everyone else not sacrificing their self-interest for you is pathetic! I’m sure you fly on vacations or in your job, or eat red meat, or sometimes drive when you could bike. That’s fine – I don’t expect you to do what’s best for me, because I’m not a child. But realize that people in general are mostly no better than you are.… Read more »

Now I see you clearly. The tactics you use. You rely on personal attacks many times on this page. You are trying to discredit me personally.

As far as I ‘m concerned, YOU are the childish bully right now.

@RexxSee:

Is Terawatt a childish bully? Yes.

But he’s not the one who has discredited you. You did that yourself quite thoroughly, with all your crazy conspiracy theory posts, and your absurd claims which ignore reality, such as claiming that battery makers’ prices are more than ten times their actual costs for making batteries.

Thanks for your posts Tera…

It is nice to know I am not the only one who blames the goverments much more so than the auto companies… Over here the US gov drasticaly failed to do there job and is drop kickimg VW repeatedly for there own incompetience… And meanwhile every auto manfacture knows that there products polute far more than the legal limits and they are as guilty as VW…

Because at the end of the day if your child had lung dease and died before there time are you going to say hey Ford, Toyota, BMW, etc thanks for employing legeal loopholes and contributing to my childs death you are really good people…

Plus in the US corporations are required by law to maximize the profits for there shareholders… Different US industries have been caught killing with polution because they ran cost benift anaslysts that say law suits are cheaper than compliance…

That will just keep happening as long as there is a significant amount of people who favor cutting government spending in general. It has been a popular campaign promise for decades. Many people don’t want an EPA at all and would characterize it as a bunch of ‘job killing bureaucrats’. Fully funding testing and enforcement across ALL industries doesn’t happen since minimizing funding is a priority. Enough people are comfortable enough to allow some trust in industry to comply with laws with less stringent enforcement. They figure companies will want to avoid scandal. Or, they believe the laws are unnecessary anyway as the free market will prevent harmful pollution .. eventually. Then when something comes out like this VW cheat people blame the agency, instead of those that insist they are job killing bureaucrats that should not be funded. The votes are not in congress to fund everything you want, and they have not been for years.

Exactly!

That’s the issue, at least in the US. At least since the late 70s, the Republican Party has done a remarkable job at scaring and hoodwinking the white working poor and middle classes to vote against their own best interests. I have always said that, anyone who has to work for a living, has no business voting Republican. And, it’s still true, with a vengeance.

With very brief exceptions, US tax, regulatory and labor policies have been on the decline since after Reagan took office in 1981. It’s all on purpose, by design: “starve the beast”, was the “conservative” mantra of the time, and they have not backed down from such a selfish, ignorant and unconstructive policy.

+1

-1.

It doesn’t take excessive government spending to combat pollution.

Let us remember, this cheat was 95% in Europe which does not have the Republican party. This is a European company that sells far more cars in Europe. Also let’s remember that regulations on diesel emissions are more lax in Europe. Please check the air quality in Paris – which is not a hot bed of the Republican party.

So please. Government largess is not necessary to police emissions.

And an American caught all of this. Not government but that is ok.

Yes their simplistic ‘if only’ mantra is rather tiring. ‘If only’ we get rid of the unions, which was Reagan, yeah that helped in keeping wages down for decades, then there will be more for us.

Right. And some of us decide to save water in the middle of the drought (as is the case here now in CA), and some of us don’t give a f*. Government should do it…

Terawatt said:

“…the blame for listening to vested interest again lies with politicians and institutions of government – not primarily with the corporations.”

It takes two people to make bribery happen: One to offer, and one to accept. It’s absurd to suggest the one taking the bribe is any more to blame than the person offering it.

As long as Porsche releases the Boxster-E I will truly be happy.

What I read on pushevs REnault 400 km NEDC will be in Paris Motorshow, ready to sell. Take that VW and Tesla :-).

Really?? If so, that’d be the best-kept secret since… I was going to say the Enigma, but then realized the allies did break it long before the Germans had any clue. But an incredible secret it would be. I doubt it.

400 km NEDC anyway is likely less than the Bolt. I’m not sure why the NEDC/EPA ratio is so much lower for Tesla than everyone else, but if it’s to do with consumption/car size then surely the Bolt should be close to the LEAF and hence its 60 kWh should get somewhere near double the LEAFs 30 kWh. The latter is 250 km NEDC, leading me to expect the Bolt to get in the ballpark of 500 km.

Even so, a 400 km Renault going on sale now would be wonderful news! If the price is right (and I otherwise like it) I might even get it – and cancel my Model 3 reservation.

40 kWh zoe is well know since 1-3 months. The leaf will follow suit. Start next year / end of 2016

Do you have link?
As far as I heard about Renault on Paris show, they are planning to reveal their first pickup to trash environment at higher rate than ever before :/

Is VW proclaiming their “late mover” advantage? How much of VW market cap is held by Middle East OPEC cartels?

VW Voting rights distribution:
52.2% Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart
20.0% State of Lower Saxony, Hanover
17.0% Qatar Holding
10.8% Others

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/content/en/investor_relations/share/Shareholder_Structure.html

In other words, by the time the Model3 finally ships in volume globally and has its various QA issues fixed.

VW group – ” The world’s largest maker of electric car models”, seems to release a new set of vehicles every few months.

Trouble is they actually make precious few for sale. Besides the EGOLF, the only new product available by me is a cost-reduced EGOLF that has a ‘new’ 3.3 kw charger, and incandescent headlights.

I’m in favor of cost reduced versions, but its not quite so big a deal as VW is making this.

Seems like they do this to promote an “Aura of Greeness” – perhaps they think they’re Diesel Fines will be lessened. Repeating, the one I find ‘funny’ is the large V6 diesel that SHUTS OFF ALL EMISSION CONTROLS after 22 minutes, since all emission testing ends after 20.

How long they can get away with this crap without making actual electric cars is anyone’s guess.

Is e-Golf perhaps production constrained? Is it profitable in the US?

I don’t know, but over here in Norway the e-Golf is consistently the best-selling EV, and with the e-Up VW has half the market all alone. (Leaf is second, Model S third and Zoe fourth if memory serves.)

It would be interesting to hear a no-nonsense explanation of why it has such limited availability in the US. That is, the business reasons – I am more than fed up with stupid theories that essentially boil down to them being “evil”.

I don’t think that any of the big ones will survive. Just like DEC equipment and others died. In fact if VW committees to EVs it will be signing its death certificate because they will not know what to do with all these un needed employees. It is a shame that they will die because I for one wish that they accelerate the advent of EVs. Alas they will not. I also think that VW and the other big boys do not have enough IT competent people like California and Silicon Valley has. And let us face it, the EV is nothing but a computer with a large battery that has wheels. And every day there will be a better software to make this computer on wheels better. There will be others that will emerge like Faraday, and maybe Apple, but Ford GM etc will slowly die.

Alaa. Your simplification of the complexity of any car betrays your ignorance. A modern car is a lot more sophisticated than powertrain alone, with multiple subsystems all talking to each other, not to mention the safety cell and dynamics required in a well driving chassis. This is why Tesla went out and found the best vehicle engineers to make their car, and why Apple’s going to need to do the same. A car is the the most complex consumer good out there and no start up or computer giant is going to reinvent how they work any time soon.

There is no fate for the big car companies but only the result of the tough decisions that they do or do not take now. Ford can be an ev car company tomorrow if they decide to act towards that goal instead of remaining in the business as usual until it is too late.

Alaa said:

“And let us face it, the EV is nothing but a computer with a large battery that has wheels.”

Congratulations, you’re making exactly the same mistake that the founders of Tesla Motors* made, in thinking they could build cars like computers.

No, any automobile — even an EV — is very far indeed from being just a computer with wheels and a bigger battery. Computers are the product of light industry, which can be scaled up rapidly and fairly cheaply. Automobiles are the product of heavy industry, which requires massive investments in equipment and R&D, and much time, to scale up production.

*The actual founders, not Elon Musk

Volkswagen’s talking a good game, with battery manufacturing and a myriad of full electrics. I hope they stick true this time.?

It ain’t true that no auto manuf can make a reliable EV in a 15-17 price bracket. It ain’t true also that no maker can cover any country’s area with fast reliable wireless chargers with them being some 40 km spaced apart. But it is true that both established and Tesla Motors-like companies are employed in the same factory, the one that has one and only purpose – to make money. Therefore, neither of them is gonna lessen nor reverse the harmful impact towards the nature and consequently towards humans. A true tipping point has not yet even remotely been reached, nor won’t be for many years to come – unless they all take a different approach. For the time being both ICE and BEV makers are on thin ice and their single value is no more than 50 cents !

LOL said:

“It ain’t true that no auto manuf can make a reliable EV in a 15-17 price bracket.”

Only if you’re talking about a cheaply made car which can’t pass first-world safety tests, or one that can’t run at highway speed.

You could build a small EV for China or India for that amount; one that likely would be limited to a speed of 50 MPH or less. You could build a low-speed NEV or “motorized quadricycle” like the Twizy.

But no, you can’t profitably make a highway-capable four-wheel EV automobile that can seat at least four people and legally drive on American highways at 65+ MPH, and have 100+ miles of range, for under $20k. In fact, I doubt you could build even a highway-capable two-seater for that price.

“size of a Golf, but the internal space of Passat”

This is a very important point that we should take note of.

More and more customers are going for Crossovers even the smaller ones, because they offer the interior space that is more than mid sized sedan.

That is why Chevy designed the Bolt as a tall vehicle with more interior space to attract the potential crossover buyers.

Yes it will be nice if VW also sells a similar vehicle rather than a sedan like Passat.

We don’t know whether VW will really sell an Electric vehicle.

We will know it in Dec when Bolt arrives and whether they increase the range of eGolf and reduce its price accordingly.

VW is not out of the diesel woods yet. That albatross that has been hung around their collective necks, and will be there stinking to high heaven for quite some time, no matter how much they try to perfume themselves with the cologne: ‘Essence of Evs’.

Elon committed to a 200 mile epa rated range luxury sedan at a base price of $35k.
What price did VW commit to for this vehicle?
I’m guessing $150,000. It will be hand built, custom ordered and only 50 built per year.

Is it just me? I think the big oil companies are pressuring the car companies, like VW, to not build Evs, every time a new ev goes on the road the oil companies lose money. How they pressure far builders, I do not know, but I have no doubt that they do.