Video: Nissan LEAF Owner Arrested For Stealing 5 Cents Worth Of Electricity

DEC 4 2013 BY JAY COLE 89

Here is a story a long time in the making.  Someone has been arrested and detained for electricity theft.

5 cents worth.

You Better Be Careful When Plugging In - Although We Are Pretty Sure These Chargers We Photographed Outside Nissan HQ In Smyrna, TN Won't Land You In Jail

You Better Be Careful When Plugging In – Although We Are Pretty Sure These Chargers We Photographed Outside Nissan HQ In Smyrna, TN Won’t Land You In Jail

NBC 11 Alive is airing a report on Kaveh Kamooneh, who was at Chamblee Middle School watching his 11-year-old son playing tennis on a Saturday morning, and who took advantage of an open, external 120V outlet for his Nissan LEAF.

According to Mr. Kamooneh, the Chamblee police were soon on the scene.

“He said that he was going to charge me with theft by taking because I was taking power, electricity from the school,” Kamooneh said to NBC 11 in Atlanta, while noting he had been plugged in for about 20 minuters, and draining about 5 cents worth of power.

Mr. Kamooneh was not actually arrested at that time, but the attending officer did file a report.  However, eleven days later, two deputies showed up at his house and arrested him.

“I’m not sure how much electricity he stole,” said Chamblee police Sergeant Ernesto Ford, but he added that it did not matter.   “He broke the law. He stole something that wasn’t his.”

Unfortunately for the LEAF owner, that arrest came at 8pm – which meant he spend 15 hours in the DeKalb County jail, and was made to pay a fine.  Mr. Kamooneh does admit he did not have permission, but said that it was a Saturday morning and there was no one present to ask.

So probably not a great decision on the EV driver’s part – but the end result might have been a little over the top, especially considering the Police had 11 days to give the infraction a little context.

A poll on NBC 11 Alive’s  website asks if “you think the theft arrest for using electricity for a Nissan Leaf was justified? Or Overkill?” 

93.3% of respondents said it was overkill.

Check out the whole story at NBC 11 Alive in Atlanta here.  (hat tip to GeorgeK)

Categories: Charging, General, Nissan

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89 Comments on "Video: Nissan LEAF Owner Arrested For Stealing 5 Cents Worth Of Electricity"

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Foo

Most people, including the police, are idiots about electricity. The police officers in this incident probably assumed, by plugging in a “big car”, the driver clearly must have been stealing hundreds of dollars of electricity.

Even the dealer that sold me my EV said something about not playing the radio “too loud” (in order to conserve range), apparently unaware that the power draw of the radio (at any volume) is negligible.

taser54

Given the speed of the response, someone at the school dropped the dime on them.

Be careful watching the TV from outside a store window….

MrEnergyCzar

ModernMarvelFan

For most of you who are defending this “joule thief”, here is the detail on what happened…

http://www.hybridcars.com/leaf-driver-arrested-in-ga-for-taking-5-cents-of-electricity/

This “thief” is an idiot who deserves NO sympathy in the Plugin community. Repeated offender deserves this.

sven
Joule thief! LOL! In summary, Mr. Kamooneh had previously been advised he was not allowed on the school tennis courts without permission from the school. This was apparently due to his interfering with the use of the tennis courts previously during school hours. Mr. Kamooneh was difficult and argumentative when questioned by the police officer. He acknowledged that he did not have permission to use the plug and then accused the officer of having damaged his car door. The officer told Mr. Kamooneh that was not true and that Mr. Kamooneh’s vehicle and existing damage was already on his police car’s video camera from when he drove up. Furthermore, Mr. Kamooneh’s son is not a student at the middle school and his son was not the one playing tennis. Mr. Kamooneh was taking lessons himself! Also, the utility determined that Mr. Kamooneh actually stole 4 cents of electricity, not 5 cents as previously reported. Below is the unabridged version of the statement. Wednesday evening, Chamblee City Manager and Police Chief Marc Johnson issued the following statement: We received a 911 call advising that someone was plugged into the power outlet behind the middle school. The responding officer located the vehicle… Read more »
Kaveh Kamooneh
I have never been at Chamblee Middle School during school hours. I have never had any interaction with anyone working at Chamblee Middle School. I have never had any interaction with any Chamblee Police officer prior to this incidence. I fully cooperated with the officer at the scene by bringing him my ID and even volunteering my telephone number without being asked, so the officer could easily contact me. The only things that I said that can possibly be construed as argumentative is that I said to the officer 1. something about the comparative harm to the taxpayers of the electricity I was drawing and the emissions from his idling engine; 2. the comparative value of the electricity my car was drawing and a bottle of water filled from the school spigot; 3.a demand for an explanation (repeated at least 3 times) for why he had entered my car; and, 4. a demand for the officer’s badge. The officer ignored the two demands. I never accused the officer of damaging my car. Other than myself, the officer, my son and tennis coach there was no one else on the scene. The tennis coach is outraged by the Police Chief’s comments… Read more »

I probably would have told the cops I was feeding electricity INTO the school—my way of giving back to the community. Let them figure that one out.

Aaron

I am SO using that. There are plenty of vehicle-to-grid (V2G) stories on the Internet, including some with the Mitsubishi i-MiEV — one of the first EVs to support V2G.

George B

Breathtaking! This conjures up memories of Jean Valjean and inspector Javert in Les Misérables. I wonder how this type of situation could be addressed better in the future.

Kaveh Kamooneh

More EVs, more level 2 chargers, less need to plug up at 110 outlets. Eventually, swappable batteries and no need to plug up anywhere.

sven
It kind of reminds me of a couple of years ago when people getting arrested and convicted for trespassing when sitting outside a business or home and using someones unsecured WiFi. There was no law to cover the alleged crime so the prosecutors used a “trespassing theory” to allege that the offender trespassed onto the victims computer. Defense lawyers argued there was no trespassing because the victims didn’t figuratively “post a no trespassing sign” by requiring a password to sign on to the victim’s WiFi network. After a couple of years with the proliferation of businesses offering free WiFi as a way to entice customers to frequent their establishments, the defense lawyers argument became precedent in various state Appellate courts and was also codified into statute by the legislature in some states. I wonder is a similar precedent should apply to open external outlets. If the outlet is uncovered there is an expectation that the public is allowed to use it. If the outlet is covered then no public use is allowed without receiving permission first. Better yet, perhaps all open external outlets should be presumed to be free for public use, unless a sign near the outlet states otherwise.
Foo

Huh? Just because I have an “unsecured” electrical outlet on the side of my house doesn’t mean I intend the general public to use it. Same goes for my outside water spigot. Or vegetables in my garden.

Whatever happened to common courtesy? Just because somebody’s “door is open”, doesn’t mean you should just “walk right in”.

deSitter

No one was there. He was watching his kid play tennis. What is even more disturbing that the police state mentality of those idiot cops, is that sane people like you find a way of justifying their behavior. I assume this is because you are unconsciously afraid to admit to yourself how incredibly destructive to our freedoms has been the militarization of the police. I feel your pain.

Foo

You missed my point in your fever to reply. I never defended the cops… I was responding to sven’s idea of “trespassing”.

Yes, there is such a thing as trespassing (in many contexts) and it wouldn’t be such an issue is people had more courtesy. Even at the school, the Leaf owner might have done better to think, “hmm, electrical outlet… maybe I should ask the school if I can use that in the future”. Instead, he just took. Granted, it was $0.05, but he did just take.

David Stone

This is a completely different situation.

Your house is not the limit of your private property.
Therefore your house-side outlet and spigot, as well as your garden and all its contents, are private property.
If you grew your vegetables on public land and had your outlet and spigot hanging out over public land, it would be understandable that someone might thing they were for public use.

A school is public property when open; at least to the public that has reason to be there.
Being a child or student or parent of a student would qualify as a person with such reason.
If the school doors had been open, he would have had the right to enter the building and take a drink from a water fountain; if closed, he would not.
He was allowed on the property and the outlet was accessable from that property he was allowed on.

Maybe he should done without the charge if noone was available to expressly allow it, but it was hardly an obvious crime given the above described circumstances.

sven

Oops. David Stone hit the nail on the head. Foo, I meant to say that such a precedent should apply only to open external outlets in a public place, like an airport garage or a school/business parking lot. This rule wouldn’t apply to outlets or spigots on private property such as those on the side of a private house, because the public would have to trespass onto your private property to access the outlet or spigot, unless they had permission to enter the private property. Therefore, the public is presumed to not have permission to access outlets/spigots on private property and could be charged with theft and trespass if they do access them.

scottf200

People plugging in without asking give all *EV owners a bad reputation. Don’t steal “fuel”. A large car does not look/seem the same to the public as a small cell phone being plugged in. They don’t use the same amount of electricity either. They are not in the same frame-of-mind to the public.

sven

I agree.

Kaveh Kamooneh

Well, the informal opinion polls that I have seen around the net are around 90+% for and 10-% against. It seems to be helping the EV cause.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Indeed.

Plus, what sort of useful charge would a Leaf get on 120V? It’d be better if the school were to install a proper charger for faculty/staff use during the week, and have it charge for others’ use offhours.

Aaron

So, Scott, it’s okay to steal a little (charging a cell phone) but not steal a lot (relatively speaking; charging a car)? I fail to see the logic unless you’re dealing in “gray areas”.

sven

If the cords that cell phones use to charge were as thick as the ones EVs use to charge, then people would also be calling the police. It’s about the public’s perception of how much electricity is being taken (thick cord = a lot of electric, thin cord = miniscule amount of electricity).

A for the record, Scott never said that it was OK to steal a little, but not a lot of electricity.

scottf200

Spot on in both paragraphs. I don’t just charger my cell phone anywhere. 99.9% at home. I’ve done it at hotel rooms, airports (many have phone charging stations), my car, etc. I wouldn’t pull into a parking garage, or upto someones house on the street, or a business and look for and outdoor plug for my cell phone.

Public perception people and *EV acceptability. Don’t steal your cars fuel.

Ocean Railroader

What doesn’t make sense about this story line is that a school is a public place and it’s not uncommon for people to have all kinds of things plugged in during public events and no one cares. The fact that this happened at a public school’s outlet is the shocker. If this happened at say someone’s business then it would make more sense but what what I don’t understand is why didn’t they simply tell him to unplug vs having the cops show up?”

If this happened at say my collage or high school people would be in shock that there would even be a EV in the area driving around under it’s own power. Also it wouldn’t be a big deal if this was plugged into one of our local school’s walls.

Foo

I also don’t understand why the cops showed up… did somebody call to report the “electricity theft”? Did some other douche-bag parent (probably driving a Ford Extrusion, Ford Explotation… or whatever they are called) of some kid on the other team notify the cops when he saw some kind of hippie parent plugging in his eee-lectric car for free at the school, using up his hard-earned taxes. Awww hell no!

taser54

The only douche is the power thief.

sven

Please don’t use the derogatory and inflammatory term “power thief.” I believe the politically correct term is opportunity charger. 😉

Kaveh Kamooneh

“Necessity charger.”
If level 2 chargers where as ubiquitous as gas stations, the accusation of stealing would be easier to accept, because then it would be more like that the person charging up is doing it to avoid the cost of power.

Going back to previous post from Sven: other than trespassing, there is another relevant difference between charging at public places and at someone private home. The small cost of power the taxpayer pay for someone charging is handsomely compensated by the huge benefit to the public of electric cars (lower fuel consumption, lower emissions, etc.) The public as a whole benefits from cleaner air, etc. and the cost is well worth it. But it would be unfair to ask a private homeowner to pay the entire cost of that which the whole public benefits.

John Shalamskas

Did someone at the school press charges? Because if they didn’t, it is time to sue the cops for harassment.

deSitter

“press charges” – ha!

sven

LOL!

Yeah, this is kind of a tough one for me. If i’m ‘running on sparks’ (the ev equivalent of running on fumes), is it ok to charge at a nissan dealer on the way or not? Some Nissan dealers allow anyone to charge. Others only allow Nissans, and then only if you bought the car there.

I’ve violated this myself, but it is probably prudent to call the dealership ahead of time to find out their policy.

Aaron

Running on sparks. I like it!

sven

I think Bill just coined a new phrase for EV drivers!

David Murray

While this might have been a little bit of poor judgement, it certainly doesn’t warrant an arrest or jail time. The worst that should have happened was somebody should have told him to unplug it and not use it again without permission.

I had a related incident where ‘recargo’ at one time showed a ev charging station in back of a home depot. I went there going to try it out, but it was just an old unmarked 120 volt convenience outlet that seemed to have nothing to do with the “ev revolution”. I went in to ask the manager, and he said he was unaware of his store being an official charging point.

Foo

I don’t think recargo lists “official” charging points. Certainly many are, but I’ve found it to simply list places people found to charge. It’s crowd-sourced.

He should have bought a Tesla instead of a Leaf.

Brandon

“He broke the law. He stole something that wasn’t his.”

LOL

Brandon

OH MY GOD SOMEONE PLUGGED IN THEIR CAR INTO OUR POWER OUTLET WITHOUT ASKING US, QUICK OMEONE CALL THE COPS AND HAVE THIS HOOLIGAN ARRESTED!

Mark C

If nothing else, he got EV’s in the news! They were able to share the fact that EV’s are cheap to operate.
As far as power stealing, it’s an outdoor outlet funded by the public of which he is part of. If they did not want it used, they should have turned off the circuit breaker to depower the outlet until it was needed “for official purposes.” Otherwise, in this arena, people might use it to charge their EV, to power up a speaker system and suck watts to operate “offensive” music or even power lighting or other such non-violent crimes against the state. {Hope you can see the sarcasm dripping here.} It would have been far more reasonable to ask him to unplug his vehicle and take it from there.

Nelson

The following Monday Mr. Kamooneh should have gone to the school, apologized for using their outlet and paid them $1 cash for the electricity and requested a receipt. Had he done that, I think he could have avoided getting arrested.

NPNS!
Volt#671

Nelson

What that school needs is coin operated charging stations. They’d avoid the monthly network charge a provider like Chargepoint charges.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/27/fuji-electric-releasing-first-coin-operated-ev-fast-charger/

NPNS!
Volt#671

sven

That’s a great idea! The school can allocate the limited dollars in it’s annual budget for coin-operated DC fast chargers. That’s exactly what the parents, who all live near the school, need. Likewise, the teachers who work all day at the school need a DC fast charger to charge up their EVs for the commute home. Those coin operated fast charging stations will pay for themselves in no time!

sven

/sarcasm

The comment system ate up the sarcasm tag in my original post.

Nelson

I think I hit a nerve. You must work for a charging station company like Chargepoint. Turns out coin operated outlet timers exist and are relatively cheap. $150 on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coin-operated-Timer-Control-Power-Supply-box-to-Control-electronicl-device-110V-/250954351133

All that’s needed is one that’s rated for level 2 charging stations like the $850 GE Indoor/Outdoor Level-2 Watt-Station.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-EV-charger-Indoor-Outdoor-Level-2-Watt-Station-Wall-Mount-with-Plug-EVWSWBC-CP01/203001939?cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-203001939&skwcid&kwd=&ci_sku=203001939&ci_kw=&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969#.Up_Of02A19A

For less than $1,500 you can own a revenue producing charging station with “NO MONTHLY SERVICE FEE”.
If this catches on companies like Chargepoint will die. Get rid of the middle man I always say.

NPNS!
Volt#671

Ben

or run it on a honor donation system, just put up a collection box. sure some will take advantage of it, but most will over pay.

Rob

There is no way he can be convicted for stealing 5 cents of electricity. At least that is what the doctrine of de minimis non curat lex says. But, since American cops know nothing about law, I have serious doubts if the county judge who will eventually decide the case will know about this doctrine.

taser54

Incorrect. Shoplifters are prosecuted and convicted all the time for “trivial” amounts. No, the Leaf owner will accept a PBJ or he will be convicted.

Rob

Would not surprise me. I am not even going to vent here to express my opinions about American justice system. And yes, I am aware of the fact that in the US you can be convicted for stealing 35 cents (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDEQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.gonzaga.edu%2Fgulawreview%2Ffiles%2F2011%2F02%2FNemerofsky.pdf&ei=02SfUvf3Caz9iQKT-oDgBg&usg=AFQjCNF92_B6AgF9bRBiJ_hxgt7guq7snQ&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGE). I am also aware of the fact that you can be convicted to life in prison for stealing a bicycle and a couple of pizzas, as long as they are separate convictions – that tells you a lot about the society.

taser54

Sure does, the United States is the most violent and most charitable society in the world. Countries take our military protection and money, and then bitch about our society?

Rob

I gather from your comment that you tolerate only comments about your “charitable” nature. Is pointing to the “violent” side just unacceptable “bitching”?

efuel

Picture this…
Serveral people run up to the officer.
Officer, officer I see someone breaking into a car.
Another person, someone is driving 90 miles a hour in a school zone.
Another person, someone is selling drugs to that kid right there.
Another person, oh may goodness what is that teacher doing to that kid….

While all of that is going on the officer pulls his weapon and screams out,
EVERYBODY GET DOWN. GET DOWN. The officer runs over to the leaf.
He says to himself, I don’t know why this person has this car plugged up.
It looks fishy to me. Maybe they are trying to steal cable tv or something. I dont know, either way I’ve got to stop this right now. He gets on his radio to get backup. 9 more cops speed over. All of them still don’t understand why the car is plugged up. The really smart officer in the group says just give him a ticket. The original officer says what should I right the ticket for. He replies back, just make something up.

Brandon

Lol

Gene
While I agree that no arrest needed to be made (you wouldn’t file charges against someone stealing pens from you), let’s think about how this would have played out if the cops did nothing… I have no doubt that the Leaf owner would have continued well beyond 5 cents of usage that day, and would continue to do so every time he visited the school (weekly?). Others might see him doing this and would also begin tapping the outlet. It could end up being a few hundred dollars of electricity over the course of a year (especially if it happens in a place where electricity costs are higher). That might be just a small fraction of the school’s electricity bill, but I’ve heard taxpayers cry foul over even smaller budget fractions. Many of us have plugged something into an outlet at a public facility, but we typically have devices that use only 10-100 W, not 1+ kW. When does the cost begin to be significant, and what should be done if it becomes so? It probably costs ~$100 to have locked covers installed on outdoor outlets (labor cost, mostly). Perhaps the school should ignore this usage until it clearly becomes… Read more »
VFanRJ

Perhaps the proper response would have been “I see that you’re a frequent plug-in visitor, you need setup an arrangement to pay for the juice that you’re using.” To be clear, the cost is somewhere between 10 to 15 cents/hour, which is essentially zero for an infrequent visitor. It would be different if it were a teacher who was plugging in all day for every school day (at which the teacher would owe about a $1 a day).

Kaveh Kamooneh

If a lot of people need to plug in their EVs, then the market would respond with more charging stations. If other options are readily available then plugging into a free outlet would make clear a criminal theft mentality and thus we could call it theft.

As is, the cost is negligible and the tax paying public is getting a good deal, given the benefits of electric cars–a much better deal than say building the tennis court that only benefits relatively few tennis players at the expense of all. In other words, paying for an EV’s electricity costs all tax payers a little and benefits all. Building and maintaining tennis courts, parks, side walks, and almost everything else costs all tax payers, and benefits only a subset of the tax payers. Which is more fair?

It is a matter of drawing the line somewhere, and it will start a discussion on where to draw this line. At cell phones? Or are laptops okay too? Then why not cars?
And what about WHO charges their device? Is it okay for employees of a business to plug in their cell phone/laptop/car? Then what about (paying) customers? Or third parties as well? And at a public property: should teachers or doctors be allowed to charge their private cell phones at school or in the hospital? Then why not students, or patients? Or parents of students, visitors of patients?
Or what about when electric cars will be able to discharge electricity back to the power grid? Would in this case the school be charged with theft?

Source: http://left-lane.com/arrested-charging-ev-school/

I did this at a campground restroom last summer. I got quasi-permission (like, “I guess you could do that …”), but still felt kind of guilty doing it. I would have gladly paid the buck or so of electricity it cost them, but, as most of us Plug-in drivers know, most electricity owners don’t have the ability to manage a random car plug or know what it costs to charge (As an experiment, I ask electricity customers what the pay per kwh and how many they use in a month – not many can tell me.)

Someday we’ll look back and laugh at these kind of shenanigans. Mr. Kamooneh will say, “Remember the time I spent 15 hours in jail for plugging in my Leaf? Ha, those were the days!” His grandchildren will think he’s talking about walking to school in two feet of snow uphill both ways.

sven

How the heck did you get your EV into the restroom?

Rick

It’s wrong to steal, no matter how much or how little. It’s sort of like when EV owners get all upset when governments enact special taxes to replace gas taxes on EVs. If you use the road, you should pay for its maintenance. Why do some EV owners think they are so entitled? I’ll never understand it.

Wood Foss

Thank you Rick. I agree completely.with your statement and I think EV drivers must come to grips with the fact they are not entitled to free highway usage or free electricity…..

Brandon

You should not be arrested for plugging in your car, period. The most absurd article i’ve seen in the past few…. weeks lol

ModernMarvelFan

Sure, the arrest is bit extreme. But other story has indicated that this person is a “repeat offender” who has been warned NOT to plug it in….

Kaveh Kamooneh

The stories do not say that. The police chief’s statement says that. The chief’s statement comes 24 hours after the news goes viral and the police department gets much backlash. The chief’s statement almost retracts the theft charge and casts it as a trespassing charge.

In addition, the chief seems only to rely on the testimony of his officers, the same ones who misrepresented the value of the electricity to the judge as $10 to $25, though they had 11 days to find out. In other words, the warrant was issued on false information provided to the judge by the officers. Yet the chief does not seek to verify their claims before he issues his statement.

All substantive claims in the chiefs statement are false.

Brandon

lul are you kidding me, there was no sign saying you cant plug in, this is literally ridiculous and the fact that this is a situation shows how us humans have evolved. brain size increased, intelligence immensely decreased, whole lotta brain and a whole lotta nothin

sven

Signs? So you think that you’re entitled to plug into any plug as long as there is no sign saying that you can’t plug in? It’s ironic that years ago the music group Tesla had a hit with their cover of the song “Signs.”

http://www.metrolyrics.com/signs-lyrics-tesla.html

Brandon

“A theft is a theft,” Sgt. Ford said. When asked if he’d make the arrest again, he answered: “Absolutely.”

Sgt. Ford is doing real good for the world! arresting people for plugging in their cars! good job mr ford! keep doing what your doing…. and hopefully you get laid off…. shootings, murders, robberies occur and they dont do shit but he’ll sure as hell arrest a guy for plugging in his car, didnt even know that was legal? LOL utterly ridiculous

I better start seeing a lot more people arrested at airports. The amount of cell phones plugged into “opportunity outlets” always amazes me.

Spin

I suspect this guy was doing this everytime he went to the school, and someone saw this and reported him. Maybe a school official asked him to stop doing this and he ignored them. Why didn’t he charge at home? Surely the school was well within the range of his Leaf. He found a way for the taxpayers to pay for his sons transportation needs. If he had an ice vehicle and he siphoned gas out of a school vehicle parked in the lot, none of you would have a problem with him being arrested. This guy was probably gaming the system, and if so, deserved to be arrested.

ModernMarvelFan

Cheap LEAF owner in GA…

Trying to save a buck…

Kaveh Kamooneh

My home is over 12 miles from the school and my son and I were going to be running other errands after practice and would have been close to running out of juice. I did fully charge at home.

The case of gas car driver is different in two important ways:

1. There are readily available alternatives, so it’s reasonable to infer that the gas car owner who takes gas is solely motivated by motives associated with theft; and,

2. by taking gas the gas car driver imposes a cost on the public and by driving on that gas the he is harming the public. Whereas, by taking electricity the EV driver is imposing a cost on the public and by driving using that electricity he is not harming the public as much (one might even say, he is benefiting the public relative to the gas car owner).

ModernMarvelFan
Well, he is ONE BAD APPLE. One BAD LEAF owner has ruined the reputation for all of us. Sure, the amount of “stolen” electricity is small. But the fact is that he did NOT have authorization to do so. That is “stealing”. Amount of stealing is small, but stealing is still stealing. At the end of the day, it is more waste to arrest the guy. If police was smart, then they could have just gave him a citation. But the fact is that NO plugin owners should ASSUME that any outlets are fair game without authorization regardless how little the electricity is. Sure, it is only a dime. But if you walk into a school and take EVEN a DIME from the school fund, it is a stealing. If you walk into a store and take a dime from the register without permission, then it is stealing. Let us look at it this way, if you go to a gas station, fill it up with $0.05 worth of gas and drive away without paying, then it is STEALING. Now, with all that said, to persecuting the person for doing this is another matter. But stealing is stealing. Someone at… Read more »
Kaveh Kamooneh

If all taking of goods and services, regardless of value or any other circumstance, is stealing, ModernMarvelFan, then I don’t know a person who isn’t a thief. Everyone I know, including police officers, regularly do one or more of the below:

1. use work computer for personal email, or browsing,
2. take personal calls on work telephones or work cell phones,
3. police go on their breaks, at say the doughnut shop, using police cars using publicly paid for gas, and publicly paid for maintenance, tires, air filters, etc. (not to mention clean air)
4. take a paper clip from the office or after a conference for your lose sheets,
5. [please fill in other cases here–there is no end].

Are you willing to say that all these are stealing. All are taking of something of value (however small) that is not yours without the consent of the owners? If everyone is thief, then I plead guilty too.

KK, as I’ve mentioned on the newer article of the police response, I think you have a legal case against the police department. What you did would reasonably assumed to be “Implied Consent”, in other words its not stealing unless you knew it was stealing.

There are many tacit agreements that come into effect every time we enter a corner store, we may look at products, as long as we put them back, for instance..

Another thing. That outlet you plugged into may be considered a “public commons”. You may have reasonably felt that you paid for that 5 cents due to your payment of school taxes, Therefore the SCHOOL really doesn’t own it, the taxpayers do, and I didn’t hear any objection from them at this point.,

Kaveh Kamooneh
Thank you Bill. I agree with your first point, about implied consent. Here is my slightly different example to illustrate your point: A girl scout comes to my door trying to sell me cookies. I decide to buy. I realize I have no cash, but there are $2 in my wife’s purse. My wife is asleep upstairs, so I reach in and take the $2, which is hers. So I am taking something that is not mine without consent of the owner. No theft, because it’s reasonable to assume that the owner would have consented if asked. Now, I think it’s reasonable to assume the tax paying public would consent if they know the relevant facts, i.e. the extreme low cost and the very considerable benefits the tax paying public enjoys (lower gas consumption, cleaner air, lower medical suffering and costs, etc.) when people drive EV as compared to gas cars. So, I think, it’s reasonable to burden the public with a small fraction of a very small cost for a tremendous benefit that everyone gets equally. After all, they have decided to pay a huge cost (build and maintain tennis courts), for a benefit that very few people enjoy… Read more »

Well KK, and Kevin1, I’m sorry but I feel strongly about this. You are not ‘borrowing’ a $400 computer You are making the reasonable assumption that you allowed to get a few miles of charge.

People should not be arrested for using a drinking from a water fountain, using the washroom, entering a building and letting out the conditione air. Unless there is signage.

The Police committed the far bigger crime.

Just today a cop in San Antonio unloaded his whole revolver (according to witnesses) into an unarmed 23 year old University student just for asking the sarcastic question, “Oh, now you’re going to shoot me?”.

Other cases happen by the week of kids killed for brandishing toy guns, besides the over 500 taser’d deaths last year. Of course if you (the VICTIM of Tyranny) live, then you’re charged with ASSULTING a police officer since you got in the way of his bullets. Or your charged with assult if you as much as lift up your hands to try to prevent being beaten to a pulp.

As far as the San Antonio cop goes, a quick jury trial then public hanging will be the only just outcome.

This case fortunately didn’t proceed to such an extreme conclusion, but there need to be consequences for these out-of-control Police Depts that have no cost or accountability.

Kevin1

How much it cost is irrelevant, he stole something that didn’t belong to him. He had no permission to even be there, much less mooch from the school’s power system.

Under “Implied Consent”, he assumed he did have permission for such a small sampling, since there was no signage. A public school doesn’t own anything really, the taxpayers who support the PS do.

Keep this in mind the next time you use a washroom, or take a drink from a water fountain without asking:

You STOLE:
Potable Water !!

Incurred extra sewage charges for the school system !!!

Used Valuable Toilet paper and Soap!

Now we have to contract with a cleaning firm to not only replace the suppies, we also have to pay them LABOR wages to do it!

Caused their furnace to needlessly run when you let the cold air in by entering and leaving the building, causing a higher gas or oil bill plus additional wear and tear on the equipment!

This is all because there was no sign giving you permission to avoid all of the above charges.

A thief is a thief.

Kaveh Kamooneh

Everyone is thief.