Vancouver To Charge For Charging – Big Time

3 months ago by Mark Kane 58

The City of Vancouver, Canada has decided to introduce fees for charging plug-in cars – at its previously free charging stations, as high demand has made those facilities overcrowded.  One might think that a better option would be to add more stations, as rebates set up in the province has caused the influx of new EVs…but we digress.

E-mazing Race Celebration in Vancouver, B.C., and my LEAF trickle charging at a lamp post!

Costs of charging at the stations (on top of hourly parking meter rate) differs depending on the type of the charging station:

  • up to 7 kW AC – $2/hour
  • 50 kW DC – $16/hour

According to Global News, the city estimates the new rates would be equivalent to about 50 cents per litre of gas.

“Green Councillor Adriane Carr says high demand for the charging stations was part of the decision to move ahead with the fees.

“It looks like it’s going to be a pilot project that staff are going to start on quickly. They are very keen to see the response. There are parking meters right now that have electric vehicle charging stations, they are backed up and it’s hard to get at them.””

Why the need to go from free to (up to) $16/hour if congestion is the reason for the fees, and not start with a smaller amount?  Who knows.  We do suspect with the new policy that the 17,000 charging sessions given out last year at the station is likely to fall significantly

source: Global News

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58 responses to "Vancouver To Charge For Charging – Big Time"

  1. AlphaEdge says:

    There is only one Level 3 (50 kW DC) charger in the city limits of Vancouver, and it way in the north east at Hastings!

    That shows you how pathetic things are here. The suburbs are doing much better as there are now 11 Lvl 3 chargers to choose from which is a huge increase this year, as there was just recently about 4 of them.

    I hope these rates will encourage more Lvl 3 chargers to be built in Vancouver itself.

    I strongly support the paid model, as it pays for the installation and maintenance of chargers.

    Now people will get as much charge as they need.

    1. AlphaEdge says:

      Note, that this policy affects only chargers owned by the city, and at these rates, competitors may feel an incentive to install chargers and charge a lower rate, like $8 to $12/hr for LvL3.

      1. Brandon says:

        As a matter of fact, this new fee the city of Vancouver is charging of $16 an hour ($8.00 per 30 minutes), is right in the middle of average DCFC prices worldwide.

        I’ve done some research on what the rates are for various DCFC providers around the world in order to come up with an average cost per 30 minute session and an average cost per kWh.

        I actually just today finished the last part of my write up. I included longer range EV charging and a direct comparison to EVgo, the largest DCFC provider in the U.S.

        Here it is:

        Worldwide DCFC Provider Rates

        13 kWh is typical for most LEAF’s to gain in 30 minutes.
        Following is the cost for a 13 kWh / 30 minute charge:

        Blink: $6.37

        Ecotricity: $6.88

        Charge.net $7.85

        Fastned: $8.71

        Fortum: $9.00

        EVgo: $10.95

        Clever: $11.70

        The average worldwide price for a 30 minute / 13 kWh fast charge and the average per kWh price is:

        $8.78 per session
        $0.68 per kWh

        A larger battery EV like the Chevy Bolt can fast charge at a higher rate. In 30 minutes around 17 kWh is typically gained from a 40 kW fast charger, and 22 kWh from a 50 kW one.

        This changes the average price per 30 minute session and per kWh to:

        17 kWh:
        $10.64 per session
        $0.60 per kWh

        22 kWh:
        $11.95 per session
        $0.54 per kWh

        Details on DCFC providers pricing, exchange rate, and per kWh rate:

        Blink:
        $0.49 per kWh

        $6.37 for 13 kWh
        $8.33 for 17 kWh
        $10.78 for 22 kWh

        Ecotricity:
        £3.00 connection fee, and £0.17 per kWh
        £1.00 to $1.32 exchange rate

        $6.88 for 13 kWh
        $0.53 per kWh

        $7.77 for 17 kWh
        $0.46 per kWh

        $8.90 for 22 kWh
        $0.40 per kWh

        Charge.net:
        $0.25 NZD per minute + $0.25 NZD per kWh
        1 NZD to $0.73 exchange rate

        $3.25 NZD for 13 kWh, plus
        $7.50 NZD for 30 minutes
        Total: $10.75 NZD / $7.85 USD
        $0.60 USD per kWh

        $4.25 NZD for 17 kWh, plus
        $7.50 NZD for 30 minutes
        Total: $11.75 NZD / $8.58 USD
        $0.50 USD per kWh

        $5.50 NZD for 22 kWh, plus
        $7.50 NZD for 30 minutes
        Total: $13.00 NZD / $9.49 USD
        $0.43 USD per kWh

        Fastned:
        €0.59 per kWh
        1 EURO to $1.13 exchange rate
        $0.67 per kWh

        $8.71 for 13 kWh
        $11.39 for 17 kWh
        $14.74 for 22 kWh

        Fortum:
        2.50 NOK per minute
        1.00 NOK to $0.12 exchange rate
        $0.30 per minute

        $9.00 for 30 minutes
        $9.00 for 13 kWh is $0.69 / kWh
        $9.00 for 17 kWh is $0.53 / kWh
        $9.00 for 22 kWh is $0.41 / kWh

        EVgo:
        $4.95 per session + $0.20 per minute
        $10.95 per 30 minute session

        13 kWh is $0.84 per kWh
        17 kWh is $0.64 per kWh
        22 kWh is $0.50 per kWh

        Clever:
        6.00 DKK per kWh
        1.00 DKK to $0.15 exchange rate
        $0.90 per kWh

        $11.70 for 13 kWh
        $15.30 for 17 kWh
        $19.80 for 22 kWh

        Exchange rates to USD are from summer 2017.

        Difference Between 40 kW and 50 kW Fast Chargers:

        There is indeed a difference in how many kWh a Bolt can take on at a 100 amp fast charger versus a 125 amp one. (50 kW vs 40 kW)

        A 125 amp fast charger will be around 44 kW max (350 volts x 125 amps), and a 100 amp fast charger will be around 35 kW max (350 volts x 100 amps).

        What this means is that if the EV is taking all it can get, like a Bolt will be on a 50 kW fast charger at a lower SOC, in 30 minutes you will get around 17 kWh on a 100 amp fast charger, and around 22 kWh or so on a 125 amp fast charger.

        A Bolt typically gets around 4 miles per kWh, so 17 kWh will give ~70 miles, and 22 kWh will give ~90 miles.

        Combining these two ‘Bolt fast charge rates’ and prices of:

        17 kWh:
        $10.64 per session
        $0.60 per kWh

        and

        22 kWh:
        $11.95 per session
        $0.54 per kWh

        We get the worldwide average of:
        $11.30 per session
        $0.57 per kWh

        Comparing these worldwide average rates with the largest DCFC provider in the U.S., EVgo, it can be seen that EVgo’s rates are $2.17 higher for charging a 1st gen EV, but $0.35 less for charging a larger battery EV such as the Bolt.

        EVgo’s rates are:
        $10.95 per session
        13 kWh is $0.84 per kWh
        17 kWh is $0.64 per kWh
        22 kWh is $0.50 per kWh
        17 and 22 kWh average: $0.57

        Worldwide Average:

        13 kWh charge
        $8.78 per session
        $0.68 per kWh

        17 & 22 kWh charge average:
        $11.30 per session
        $0.57 per kWh

        1. James M says:

          Therefore Vancouver’s rate will be about in line with $0.57 average. But as a local Vancouverite and long time EV enthusiast/owner, Vancouver in my experience is already one of the most expensive cities I’ve lived or traveled in for meter parking. Around downtown it is often $6/hour, all day, 7 days a week. So considering EV spots were free before, adding $2/hour on top of the meter price, kills what was the only EV incentive Vancouver offered. Compare this to only $0.40/hour to charge at home, with nearly 90% hydro generated green electricity. This will definitely stop most from using city chargers at all.

          With barely a dozen municipal chargers (and only one DC fast charger), in a city of over half a million, this is where the real hypocrisy lies, for a city trying to be the greenest (http://vancouver.ca/green-vancouver/greenest-city-action-plan.aspx). None of this revenue will be invested back into adding chargers, as the ones we have were a provincial initiative, and this new meter income remains in “general revenue”. Also, the city is profiting about four times, since commercial electricity rates are only $0.11/kWh. So the end result is net negative for encouraging EV adoption, in a city with the greenest electricity in North America. A very sad day.

          1. Brandon says:

            There’s a reason these rates are charged, and most providers around the world are nowhere NEAR retail prices of electricity.

          2. FISHEV says:

            “This will definitely stop most from using city chargers at all.”

            Which is likely the objective. If one has home charging, then leave the public chargers for those who don’t or who are away from home.

            The incentive for getting an EV for those in apartments without home charging will go up as they will have access to charging and will be paying much less per mile than if they purchased an gasoline vehicle.

            Those who need the public chargers will also be motivated to get off them as soon as possible freeing up the chargers so maximum number of people can use them.

            Should increase the number of EV’s in the city.

            Now a couple fast DC chargers on the way to Whistler would be nice.

            1. Brandon says:

              Everything you just said is good and accurate, except for the part about those in apartments without a charger paying less for fast charging at these stations than what it would cost to fuel a gas car.

              The fact is that around $0.50 a kWh (which is what Vancouver’s rate comes to for most 1st gen EVs), is the equivalent of $5.00 a gallon for gas.

              Even if a longer range EV like the Bolt would charge at these fast chargers at the these new rates, it would still be more expensive than gas, because for a Bolt it comes to around $0.30 per kWh, which is equivalent to $3.00 USD a gallon, or $0.95 CAD per liter. That’s still more that the stated $0.50 CAD per liter.

              I’m still not really sure where or how the figure in the article of $0.50 CAD per liter (about $2.00 CAD a gallon) for gas is determined.
              $2.00 Canadian is $1.58 USD. $1.58 for the equivalent of a gallon of gas would be cheaper, but I don’t see how this is true.

              1. FISHEV says:

                “According to Global News, the city estimates the new rates would be equivalent to about 50 cents per litre of gas.”

                I was going by the above quote. With gasoline selling for $1.21 per liter, the $0.50 equivalent would make the EV economically attractive.

                1. GSP says:

                  As Brandon pointed out above, these rates are more expensive than $0.50/liter for gas. At 7 kW and $2/hour it takes about 2 hours or $4 to get 40 miles range. That same range would take about 4 liters of gas in an average car. Therefore they are charging about $1.00/liter for slow L2 charging.

                  Whatever calculation they used to get $0.50/liter is likely bogus.

                  GSP

              2. Maria says:

                Apartment dwellers should be pressuring management or their work to install L2 EVSEs or even a big bunch of 120V outlets.

                Make it easy to recharge at home and work and concentrate public L3 chargers along transportation routes.

                120V outlets are dirt cheap to install and they could even be only turned on during off peak hours to minimize cost. No sense even bothering to meter them, More important to provide some means of securing the L1 EVSE from thieves. Whiners will moan about the $1 of “free” electricity EV owners are getting because they have nothing better to do with their lives then rail against life’s most minor injustices. A flat $20/mo EV charging sticker fee could shut them up. EV owners are willing to pay for their juice as long as they aren’t reamed for it.

          3. mustang_sallad says:

            James – as a Vancouverite and EV enthusiast, you’ve got a lot of catching up to do:
            – As I mention in my post below with a link, Vancouver approved $3M of funding for new stations, including 20 DCFC stations, so it’s silly to imply they’re just going to pocket revenue from these usage fees.
            – These stations aren’t free to operate, so it’s silly to suggest they could operate sustainably just by collecting something close to retail electricity rates. There are maintenance costs, stations get damaged on a regular basis, service fees to enable monitoring and payments, etc…
            – The city installed closer to 70 public level 2 stations, and this was separate from the various provincial programs that installed about 1000 level 2 stations across the province (many of which are in and around Vancouver as well).

            1. James M says:

              Thanks for the update as I didn’t know this, and good news. Although still not much to celebrate. In comparison, nearby Portland Oregon has over 20 DC chargers already today, and supporting a smaller population. The new fees do therefore justify the $3M investment, but end what was a great incentive (free parking/charging). Financial and HOV incentives remain, but they are provincial. Hopefully they’ll put the new chargers in prime parking spots. This would still offer a modest incentive at least.

          4. Francois says:

            Let me correct your affirmation. The entire Quebec province is 99% hydro. That makes us the cleanest cities in NA.

        2. Eric White says:

          Just purchase a car that can accept a higher rate if charge and you won’t have to charge for an hour such as a Tesla or a Chevy bolt. The bolt can accept can take in 45 to 45 amps and Tesla can draw in over 80 amps of power resulting in a significantly shorter recharge time ultimately reduce recharging cost.

          1. GSP says:

            The Bolt EV can accept up to 32 Amps from an L2 charging station.

            Tesla’s current models can accept up to 72 Amps. The early Model S was available with dual chargers, allowing up to 80 Amps.

            GSP

      2. SJC says:

        IMO they can charge more than gasoline on an energy basis, EVs are more efficient so a better deal for the motorist.

    2. Brave Lil' Toaster says:

      It also happens to be the single most convenient charger to use in the Lower Mainland, since it’s right next to the highway instead of off in some weird backwater. Using the one in North Vancouver on your way to Whistler means going out of your way by about 20 minutes or so, just to get to the charger and back on the highway, never mind charging. The one at BCIT is a gong show of unreliability and billing, and obviously more of a science experiment than a real part of vital infrastructure.

      Personally, I’d take a Greenlots charger over anything.

  2. Stimpacker says:

    FREE is neither right nor sustainable.

    When Nissan’s DCFCs were free, I once waited behind this guy who finished at 96%, only to start another session just to get to 100%. All the while my family was waiting in the car.

    Now with the free charge card, the stations in town are usually occupied in the evenings, as folks want to “tank up” for their daily driving. Doesn’t make sense to plug in at home. Same goes for all the Tesla SuperCharger crowding.

    However, if the fee is too high, then only the most dedicated EV fans will be foolish enough to pay. eVgo charges $10 per 30min session (unless you subscribe with more $$$). In that time, you can grab around 18kWh from a 100A station – good for barely 70 miles freeway driving or about 2.5 gallons.

    $10 for 2.5 gallons of gas and you have to queue then wait 30mins.

    No thanks!

    1. DL says:

      Exactly right. Ever seen free gasoline?

      At airports, it used to be that you could plug in your phone or other electronic device into any convenient outlet, but now that so many people need to do that, they have “pay for use” charging stations instead (with the occasional free one that’s subsidized by a business or local entity).

      1. Maria says:

        I disagree, the trend for airports (see IAH remodeled terminal for example) is to have hundreds of 120V outlets installed and every one has USB charge ports too. Pay stations for cell phones are moronic long term, as dumb as pay toilets, they were a bandaid for airports w few 120V outlets.

        EV DCFC stations will eventually adopt the gas station model, sell fuel near cost to attract customers who buy high margin stuff in the store.

        Having captive customers for 15-60 minutes is a great business opportunity.

    2. unlucky says:

      I agree that free stinks. Join the resistance. You have you, me and SparkEV.

      As to pricing, I’m actually okay with evGO’s pricing except for the 30 minute limit. Having to pay two session fees because my car takes an hour to charge sucks.

      I know the evGO pricing is higher than putting gas in a Prius. But I charge at home most of the time, so it’s okay to cost more on the road.

      The real issue here at play is just that DC is a convenience feature. It’s going to cost more than AC, it should. You can do something with DC you can’t do at home, and that is tank up in an hour. So tank up at home as much as you can and pay extra for the fast charge feature when you need it.

      Because of this, we really should be working on more AC charging for people who don’t have houses with garages. That means work charging, apartment lots and the few places people spend a few hours at while out and about.

      Free charging story: I watched a guy use a free DC charger AS A PARKING SPOT. Parking around was expensive (valet) or far away so he just parked at the charger and walked away. He was already nearly fully charged. And it was free.

      It didn’t mess with me any, I don’t use chargers much except those which service highways. But it’s just a ridiculous waste of resources.

      Charging infrastructure has to cost money to be used at all efficiently.

  3. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

    “One might think that a better option would be to add more stations…”

    One might think that every city should do both. As had been said by many Usual Suspects here, many times, “free” just encourages abuse and makes the “Tragedy of the Commons” situation much worse.

    TANSTAFFL — There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

    If the “free” charge means you have to wait in line, or have to suffer the inconvenience of having to drive to a different location or not being able to charge at all, because all the public chargers are occupied, then it’s not really “free”. It’s just shifting the payment from money to time and hassle.

    1. SparkEV says:

      Yes, best is to have both. One could be free while the rest are paid charging. If all stations are occupied, even the free one would convert to pay charging station.

      But as I mentioned long ago, this makes too much sense, so it’ll never be implemented.

      1. How about Free stations that offer 110 Volt x 15-20 Amp Charging, Cheap Stations that offer 3.3 kW @ $0.50 per Hour; and 6.6 kW-7.2 kW $1.00 for the first 2 hours, then $2.00 per hour after that?

        At about 6 kWh in first hour, one should get about 18-24-30 Miles range, depending on if Tesla, Leaf, or i3, so 2 hours should get you 36-48-60 miles, and if you want fast AC Charging for more than that, you pay extra, or move to the slower and cheaper units!

        Many Northern Cities have had 110V x at least 15A outlets at every parking stall, for Block Heater use, for years, adding a 110V EVSE should not be much over $500.00, maybe plus installation, each, at such places!

        Never was a crowding issue, since they had lots of them, so – yes, Vancouver could do both: Add More (but 50 kW, steady for one Hour, should not cost more than Retail Electricity + 20%, or about $6.00 for an hour, where electricity is retailing at $0.10 per kWh, and ALSO add charging stations!

        Or to spread the diversity of locations with Charging Stations, give a property tax break to businesses that install 3 or more 24×7 Publicly Accessible Level 2 AC Charging Stations, equal to 50% of the installed cost, in the year installed, and a property tax break equal to 25% of the installed cost of 1 or 2 public stations!

        If such a tax break offer was instituted, maybe more businesses would take notice!

        Maybe also, the Province and the Federal Government should allow EVSE (Charging Stations) to be deducted directly as a Business Expense, under Advertising Costs, or at least a fast Depreciation Schedule at a 2-3 year rate!

        Businesses installing 2+ DC QC’s, should also get extra support, for their foward thinking, from BC Hydro, by deducing demand charges by 10% for each hour that has the QC occupied per day, per customer that has 2+ of the 50+ kW DC QC installed, for upt to 10 hours a day it is used, such that busy chargers are not billed any demand charges, thus supported!

        1. unlucky says:

          Block heater outlets are frequently limited to less than 15A and will shut down if you try to pull more.

      2. Brandon says:

        It’s definitely a fact that there are a lot of people using DCFC just because it’s free, and not because they actually need it to get to where they are going.

        Jim Francfort, from Idaho National Laboratory, shared this in his presentation at the EV Infrastructure Corridor Development Workshop in 2015 about the West Coast electric highway on I-5:

        DC Fast charger fee impacts

        50% reduction in usage when going from free to fee-based charging

        Source: page 13
        http://altfueltoolkit.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Portland_EV_Workshop_Summary_Report.pdf

        I would imagine it’s even more in a metro area!!

        1. Tom says:

          The bar near me found out that when they stopped giving out free beer, people drank less.

          1. Maria says:

            What happened when the bar stopped giving out free peanuts?

        2. Nick says:

          Yep, expensive charging == more driving on gas.

          Who’s surprised?

          1. Brandon says:

            Actually, a bigger reason that more people are driving a gas vehicle instead of an EV is because there aren’t good options for long range affordable EVs available today, and almost no reliable DCFC infrastructure for long distance travel aside from Tesla’s Supercharger network.

            Once those two factors exist, the excuse to not drive an EV will be pretty weak, and I’m certain even higher than gas prices for the 6-12 DCFC sessions per year won’t be a factor for not driving electric, because the average is 95-98% of EV charging is done at home.

            Paying higher than gas prices to DCFC doesn’t change a lot the amount of money an EV owner spends for electric per year for his EV when it’s just 200-700 miles out of 12-15k per year.

  4. Alan Stewart says:

    The best thing my office building ever did after installing charging stations was to start charging for charging. Before it was extremely difficult to get access to a charger. People were coming in early just to get the free juice, many of them Volt drivers who didn’t even need to charge. They just wanted all they could get because it was free. Now whenever I need to charge my Leaf so I can get home there’s always one available.

    1. Stimpacker says:

      One place I worked charged cheap. Didn’t work well – lousy Prius owners liked to plug in the whole day just to hog the spot.

      EV charge stations are by necessity close to the building.

      Another place had a better implementation. Free first 4 hours, then very high $/min thereafter. No more squatters.

  5. DJ says:

    Still cheaper than I would pay at home if I didn’t have solar to offset it 🙂

  6. Vexar says:

    @28 cents to 32 cents per kWh, the Tesla Supercharger in Squamish, BC about 20 minutes North of downtown Vancouver is a bargain at 20 cents per kWh with 6 stalls at charging rates up to 150 kW. Way to make other brands more expensive, Vancouver!

  7. Nick says:

    First all you you don’t like to pay for electric explain how you filled an ICE car? Nothing is free it was used to help move people over and get companies and cities LEED certs. Now that is over pay for it. That helps remove free loads which never made cents to me, waste time sitting there or leaving a car and someone picking you up to save $1.50 charging at home. Scum EVs is all that is. Adding more stations sounds easy but they cost money and if you can’t make money from free you get the idea. They other issue is people claim oh I don’t have a station at home so I need free public stations, wrong you need another car or public transportation. Taxes payers should not support the few free loading scum EVs out there. They will get the hint and over time fees at station will level out to fair market rates. I have owned a leaf for 4 years and a tesla for 2 and never could waste time on free 100% charging, get what I needed and moved on.

  8. Tom says:

    Just my opinion but yes free is pretty stupid. It is entirely likely the real costs are more than gasoline which is one reason why I think the Chevy Volt / Prius Prime model (or even i3 with Rex) is good. I know purists don’t like it but it takes no special equipment (well $500 at if you want faster charging) to charge a Volt over night in your garage. Realistically something like 70% of US adults own their own home and the ones that can afford cars like a Volt overwhelmingly own. Statistics show that over 70% of Volt miles are electric. That gets 70% of the way there without a massive infrastructure problem and with zero range anxiety. These PHEV will no longer be jamming up chargers if they are pay for chargers. Also of course vehicles like the Bolt really don’t need them except long haul trips. My guess is you’ll start seeing fast chargers at truck stops along interstates and dedicated charging businesses that are glorified coffee shops where someone can sit for 30 minutes. The idea that there will be a couple odd chargers somewhere in a parking lot will soon seem like a crazy idea.

    1. Brandon says:

      Very well said.

      I believe you have the correct idea of what future fast charging infrastructure will be like.
      Public Level 2 is not too important for future EV infrastructure coverage. It’s great to have at destinations, especially overnight or other destinations, but the HPFC (150+ kW) stations of the future will be the main infrastructure of importance for most EVs.
      PHEVs will benefit some by public Level 2, but it’s certainly not a necessity for them, and only a very small percentage of yearly miles traveled are gained from them.

      Here’s an interesting thought:

      Every hour of charging on Level 2 (at the rate of ~20 miles per hour) is equivalent to 4 minutes of fast charging at around 100 kW, like Tesla’s do nowadays.
      So, destination chargers benefit the most at places where BEVs will be parked for at least a couple hours.
      The best Level 2 placement can be evaluated and determined by the places and the amount of time long range EVs will spend there.

      1. Tom says:

        Hotel parking lots, beach parking lots, etc. And also someone further up mentioned the charges vs parking meters. The light pole chargers and/or parking meter type things that have lower speed charging as basically a glorified parking meter in downtowns is probably also a thing. Perhaps Tesla will have an app where in a public parking garage you pull up and it valet parks your car and plugs you into a fast charger for 30 minutes (via robotic charger hookup) then pulls your car out and parks it and then pulls the next car up. i.e. it creates a virtual charging line and hooks/unhooks everyone and parks them automatically. Maybe all you get is a 10 minute juice bump with your parking fee.

    2. James M says:

      Tesla has been giving away charging for free. Are they stupid? They know it is a great incentive of course. Sure it’s not sustainable in volume, but Vancouver has 3200 EVs today.

      My point is it’s still premature in Vancouver. We can no longer tell people who are on the fence about purchasing an EV, oh by the way you can park and charge for free as well. It’s still far from a groundswell here…

  9. jim stack says:

    This just makes Tesla look better all the time. Even at regular electric rates for the Model 3 it will be like 1/4th the cost of Oil based fuels.
    FREE actually can be bad and lets people clog public units and waste energy. Tesla will be making all of theirs Solar and battery in their long range plans.

  10. David Cary says:

    City of Raleigh and Town of Cary and Town of Apex – still free. Sounds like we have more than Vancouver. Wonder why free works so well down here? The fact is most EV owners are rich and our electricity is cheap – that helps. My workplace has 6 and it is hard to get them. I would love a situation where 2 cost money so that if I actually needed it, I could get it.

    I see a role for free and paid personally. Free will throttle up and down with the sun and usage. Paid will be guaranteed.

    Work place = solar/daytime charging and is the future.

  11. Joker says:

    Thank you NDP, knew it wouldn’t take long before they rescued us from the evil liberal’s.

    Guess they have to come up with money somewhere since they are getting rid of tolls.

    1. S'toon says:

      Um, the fees were imposed by the municipal government of Vancouver, not the provincial NDP. The NDP haven’t even been sworn in as government yet.

  12. RoadTripMythBuster says:

    Or limit the time people are allowed to park there. And only while charging.

  13. mustang_sallad says:

    It’s a shame you guys didn’t do a little bit of digging on the City of Vancouver website to provide a bit of context to this move: city council approved a $3M EV strategy last year that includes $2M to install 20 DCFC stations over the next 5 years. Do a little research before you armchair quarterback their policy decisions!

    http://vancouver.ca/news-calendar/council-approves-two-innovative-green-proposals.aspx

    1. AlphaEdge says:

      I did not know about this. Excellent news on the 20 DCFC stations!

  14. jakaracman says:

    What is stupid to me here is the basic idea about pricing by time, instead by kWh used. For 1 kWh used the price (if calculated from chargong time) can vary a lot, as battery SOC, temp etc influence charging time on fast charger. Get to charger after 100 km on highway at 80 mph on a 35C day and you’ll be lucky to se 35 kW charging evenwith empty battery, for example …

    Price should be by kWh, possibly with small time-related charge (to prevent people from charging unreasonably long) or time limit + removing car when chrged (othervise high parking fee)

    1. Brandon says:

      You’re right that it’s not totally fair pricing, but it’s actually the best solution keep chargers available to charge by the minute. In this case it’s $0.21 USD per minute, which is very reasonable.

      In Norway the major network operators have settled on a per minute fee, and this has been well accepted. They charge the equivalent of $0.30 USD per minute, which right in line with the world average of $0.30 per minute and $0.70 per kWh.

      1. ItsNotAboutTheMoney says:

        There are 3 cost elements:
        (1) Infrastructural: installation, maintenance, basic service
        (2) Demand charges: based on peak power
        (3) Energy charges: based on actual electricity used; for typical commercial installations this is relatively low, but if the underlying pricing is more weighted to per kWh, this would be higher. There’s a tariff now available in Quebec that allow chargers to pay per kWh.

        The optimal system would reflect all 3 cost elements,

        Simple time-based charging really covers (1), but doesn’t handle (3) and lacks nuance on (2).
        It puts off those who have lower-power chargers in their cars, primarily those with plug-in hybrids.
        Also, it doesn’t handle any time-dependent demand or electricity pricing.

      2. Maria says:

        $.70/kWh only works if EV owners are bad at math

        At 4mi/kWh that means your 100MPGe EV is really like a 20MPG gasser paying $3 50/Gal for gas.

        At a gas station you pay pretty close to wholesale cost for gas despite pumping it from a $5k pump with $100k in infrastructure (tank+) and the fuel having to be hauled in on a big tanker truck.

        Current EV L3 charging stations (excluding Tesla’s) are like me renting a patch of dirt in a parking lot, spending $100k to install a single gas pump and trying to charge $15/gallon.

        Good luck with that as a long term model

        1. Brandon says:

          If anyone is expecting that DCFC prices will be less than the cost of gas in the near future, their mistaken IMO.

          Gasoline fueling infrastructure has been well established for decades, and as you say, close to wholesale prices. Very true. But DCFC isn’t, and it’ll take a good decade to get to around half the price most network operators are charging today IMO.

          We are in the very beginning of this new fast charger infrastructure era for EVs, and with fairly low usage and no other income for most DCFC providers, expect higher than the equivalent of gas prices.

          No fast charge network operator is making a profit yet, and only some have reached the point where the fees charged to users actually cover all operating expenses for some of their charging sites.

          1. Maria says:

            And no DCFC operator will make a profit trying to charge the equivalent of $20/gallon for gas.

            While a few EV owners are bad at math, most aren’t.

            It’s one of the reasons Tesla is going to be the winner and all the other car makers are going to be resigned to selling cars to people who can recharge at home or work. Buy a Model 3 and that once a year 600 mile road trip won’t mean frequent stops for $20/gal gas equivalent.

            1. Brandon says:

              I’m not sure where you get the $20 per gallon figure, but the average per gallon cost equivalent for fast charging worldwide is around $7.00, and in the U.S. its closer to $6.00.

              Profit will eventually come for network operators as there’s more volume tho.
              I do expect prices to settle around the cost equivalent of a gallon of gas. Probably 10 years out from now.

      3. jakaracman says:

        There are other solutions to keep people from overusing DC chargers while stil paying per kWh – they just need to be implemented.

        On 50 kW DCFC ther ecould be 1 price for chanrging with (for example) 30+ kW (which is 0-80% in most EVS) and higher price for kWh when its done at low power (topping up the battery) – and really high per minute but only when charging is finished.

        It’s also much easier to calculete what cost will be. Driver just needs to konw what his battery SOC is and what he needs.

        Wold you think it would be OK, to be charged by minute when visiting gas station? SO if there’s a slow line for cahshier, bad luck, you were tere longer, pay more?

        1. Brandon says:

          A per minute variable rate that’s determined by the charge rate is in fact exactly what Tesla has done with their per minute pricing structure. But on a 50 kW fast charger I don’t think there’s any point in doing that, since there’s not a huge difference in charge rates for example between a LEAF and a Bolt on a 50 kW fast charger.

          A per minute billing is the simplest and best solution for ensuring that the fast charger remains used strictly for the charging that drivers need and no more.

          1. jakaracman says:

            There is a huge diffrenece. I have observed rates between 35 and almost 50 kW (at around 50% SOC. That is 40% difference … At 17$ per hour it’s difference between 17 and 24$ per 50 kw charge …

  15. Mark says:

    In Ontario, $17/hour is a common price for DCFC’s. Some charge a $5/session fee plus $12/hour, some are straight $17/hour.

    In western Quebec along Autoroute 20 and 50, DCFC’s are in the neighbourhood of $10/hour. I paid $1/hour for level 2 in Montreal.

    We recently drove our 2 Leafs on an 1800 km round trip from the GTA to Montreal and Ottawa and only paid about $50 for electricity. In our previous gas vehicles, it would have been well over $400.

    There are free chargers around as well and those are the ones where there is usually a wait.

    When I bought my Leaf a year ago, the salesperson was going on and on about all the free charging sites. I told him they would be pay sites soon enough, and now that is happening. I’m ok with reasonable fees for fast charging (I stopped at a pay site for $17/hour where it was delivering 20 kW – that’s too high price wise, if it was 40 or 50 kW it would be more palatable). With fees, people will only charge when they really need it and not just to freeload.
    Personally, my time is way too valuable to seek out and sit where there is free charging when I have 2 level 2 chargers at home.

  16. abc123 says:

    I already knew the moment the US started charging for these charging spots that Vancouver would follow not long after. Also, if city owned stations start charging money, then it won’t be long before privately owned stations start charging money as well.. At least those with the capability built into the charger.

    This is how Vancouver solves problems. Instead of spending money to build more of something in demand, they just start charging money for it. It’s a win-win situation for them. They curb demand and make money at it as well… all at the detriment of the users.

    Unfortunately, they’ve set the price a little too high IMHO and so these chargers will be sitting idle most of the time. The city will certainly save money on electricity usage, but they won’t be balancing the budget from money made from charging sessions.

    Oh, I almost forgot to mention. Get ready for EV’s to be parked in the charging spots but not charging. Similar to how EV spots get ICE’D, you’ll have EV’s doing the same thing. Parking is so ridiculously expensive and limited in Vancouver, that I’m sure this is some people are going to take risks.

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