Siemens Unveils Single-Phase 24 kW Fast Charger

APR 22 2015 BY MARK KANE 62

Siemens QC24S 24 kW charger

Siemens QC24S 24 kW charger

Siemens unveiled a new DC charger QC24S at the GreenFleet Scotland event.

It’s a single-phase, 24 kW wall-mounted charger, which can be ordered with CCS or CHAdeMO plug. The device itself comes from Efacec.

For cars like Nissan LEAF, charging time would be around one hour for full charge, maybe less if batteries aren’t depleted.

The main advantage is size and lower price compared to the full size 40-50 kW chargers. Price wasn’t disclosed.

There are also other features for monitoring the station:

“Alongside the small wall-mounted footprint, the new charging station comes with optional cloud-based technology which should make it easier for large charging providers to keep track of a charging station’s current status and health remotely, and even offers a new loop-detector circuit that enables a charging station to know when someone is parked in the charging bay — even if it’s not being used.”

Source: TransportEvolved

Categories: Charging

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62 Comments on "Siemens Unveils Single-Phase 24 kW Fast Charger"

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Now we are talking. I have bought my 2012 MiEV with DC-Fast Charging for exact this reason. I use the car all day, but often there is not enough charge left in the evening to shuttle the kids around and we revert to the ICE.
Does anybody have an idea of the price?

I doubt this is meant for residential usage. At 24 Kw, it would be pulling 240 V and 100 amps. That’s more than an entire home in some cases. I could probably install that at my house, but I’d have to shut off the breakers to just about everything else in the house while charging my car.

funny we amswered at the same time!

Really? I say as long as the line you run from the box can handle the load. Keep and eye on the house’s box while charging and wait for the call from the power company. Most houses are provisioned for 100kW peak…in the theoretical extreme. In any case, I’d run a 60Amp-worthy line and run this bad boy at 12kW for sure.

A correction on your numbers… most newer houses are provisioned for 100 amps, not 100kW. 100 amps at 240v is only 24kW. Most houses can be upgraded to 200 amp service, which gives you a max of 48kW. Derate that to 80% continuous duty and you get 38.4kW.

Still beats the pants off my 6kW level 2 charging station. I’ll take one.

Get a 200 amp panel. Its standard for new construction.

I know they have 300 and 400 amp panels.

Me personally this new quick charger would be great for hotels and restaurants in that a lot of them have heavy industrial wiring.

But I wounder how much would this quick charger cost?

Not around here.. 100 amps is all that is required for a house with minimal electric needs.. And all the big builders seem to have standardized on 150 amps since one of the utilities around here has made it their minimum for underground services, and its not a lot of money anyway so its a selling point.

And this is why I built my house with a separate 200amp panel in the garage for EV Charging/Solar.

My builder thought I was nuts until I started showing him articles like these.

Not so, the unit draws 111 amps, and the power consumption at 24 kw to the car is 25,500 watts, per their spec sheet.

Of course, the wiring would have to be sized according to the listed nameplate amperage which may be even more than 111 amps. But assuming this is close to the anticipated nameplate amperage, a 150 amp branch circuit would be required, unless of course the nameplate amperage was over 120.

this will not work at home use .it would need like a 100amp breaker 110 volt.not the commun house box !

Every house in the US and Canada has 240v service. Modern houses have at least 200 amp main panels. It is conceivable that people with a modern electrical system in their house could have this kind of fast charger in their home.

Not every US home nor every Canadian home even. I’ve seen plenty of singles and duplexes where there is only a 2 wire service drop to the home. And I’ve lived in a few of them myself, where the home only has 110 volt service. THe most extreme case was my dad’s apartment building with 4-900 sq ft 2 bed room apartments with central refrigeration(!) that only had 2 #8’s for the main service running 5- 30 amp meters (the 5th was the house meter, running some lights, furnace, and the 1/3 horsepower central refrigeration compressor for the 4 built in refrigerators. Admittedly their numbers are dwindling, but they’re not all gone yet. And I bet somewhere some is charging their I-miev, or VOlt or other car on the 110 available in these places. I’ve seen one large home with a 100 amp, 2 wire (120 volt only) service, and several commercial structures either having 600 amp 120 volt 2 wire single phase services, or rarely, 600 amp 120 volt 3 wire 3 phase services, where all the motors are 110 volt 3 phase. Someone will say they don’t make 110 volt 3 phase motors. To which I will say,… Read more »

If it pulls 100Amps, it would need a 120Amp breaker. I don’t think this was made for residential use, unless it’s dialed back from the 24KWh rating.

Run a dedicated line and meter off the main line that feeds your home?

that would work. This thing sounds great but I’m not sure all that many people need to DCFC their cars at home. I like the idea at shopping centers/malls.

“If it pulls 100 amps it would need a 120 amp breaker”

Not in the US, if it did pull 100 amps it would need a 125 ampere breaker.

But in fact it pulls at least 111 amps (I haven’t been able to find a nameplate yet, but the spec sheet says at least 111), and therefore it needs a 150 amp breaker, which can cause its own problems with the lower quality load-centers as I describe further down.

I would definitely like to see more of these type of chargers around town. The fact that it is only 24 Kwh is not really a problem. Most of the time I have used a commercial chademo charging station I typically just charge for 10 or 15 minutes anyway. That’s because I’m never driving up to one completely empty and charge to 100%. So that means to get the same amount of charge I’d need to wait 20 to 30 minutes instead. If they were located at convenient places where there was shopping to be done, etc, then that would be a very acceptable charge time.

Hallo! The price will be around 7.000 USD.

If this quick charger is around $7000 that would be a great deal. In that the Fuji quick charger that is 25 kilowatts is $25000 so you could in theory put three of these in for the same cost as a Fuji.

This low cost charger would be great for rural areas were there are not that many EV’s to fill in the gaps in quick charger networks.

What is the meaning of “single phase” in the context of a DC-charger? AC can have single or three phases, but DC? Or is the DC-converter supposed to get it’s AC-supply from one phase?

My guess is that they are talking about the power input to the device, not the power going out to the car. Since many businesses and homes do not have 3-phase power available, this unit would be able to be installed on a single-phase 240V setup. So that means the number of places where it could be installed is much greater than the 3-phase units.

“…What is the meaning of “single phase” in the context of a DC-charger? AC can have single or three phases, but DC? Or is the DC-converter supposed to get it’s AC-supply from one phase?….”

Unlike Polyphase circuits, power flow is not continuous; Power flow goes to zero twice per cycle.

In electronics, filtering by means of smoothing capacitors provides the ‘carry through’ while we are not getting anything from the power line.

Charging batteries has an even bigger advantage since they don’t particularly required a well filtered direct current. I’m not familiar with this particular charger’s circuit diagram, but as far as the batteries are concerned, extreme ‘smoothing’ of the dc isn’t required. The batteries will charge anyway.

I’m sorry, but 24kW is not a “fast charger”. It’s barely more than a Tesla HPWC provides (19 kW) which costs only $750. For comparison most CHAdeMO are 50kW and a Tesla supercharger is 120kW. Now that’s a fast charger.

This unit may be adequate for a Leaf in some circumstances, but what about when a Tesla plugs in with a CHAdeMO adapter? At 24kW it would take about 4 hours to fully charge at this “fast charger”. Meanwhile the Leafs would be waiting in line.

The diverence between a Tesla HPWC and this charger is where the AC-DC converter is build in. For Tesla it’s in the car (so every car buyer pays it and drives it around all the time).
The Siemens charger has the converter build in, so the cars charging don’t need to carry it around and the car-customer doesn’t need to buy it.

Theoretically these chargers would make the cars cheaper, but no OEM will offer a car without onboard charging for a very long time.

In fact the opposite is true, you usually need to pay for a $750 – $1500 upgrade to get the “fast charge port” that should be really cheap compared to the onboard charger.

Most EV’s use AC powered motors and the battery pack is DC… This by nature means there is an inverter already built into the car for both powering the car and regenerative braking. Adaption to handle wall AC should be fairly simple and not expensive at all.

This is true, but so far no one is doing it. Google “Reductive Charger”. Seems like a cost and weight saving but to my knowledge not happening.

My Tesla roadster has no separate charger. THe same electronics allowing regeneration also charges the battery from the plug-in port. Roadsters older than mine also perform level conversion using the drive motor itself, since on a single phase motor there is by definition no rotating field and hence no torque.

The Tesla HPWC is just a J1772 EVSE with a Tesla plug. Nothing expensive inside. The AC-DC conversion is done in the car.

This charging station converts AC to DC. Which is why it’s much more expensive. But this station is much cheaper than other stations which cost 2-7x more, so presumably you could install a lot more of these at a single location.

‘I’m sorry, but 24kW is not a “fast charger”.’

Its 4 TIMES the current L2 plug. That’s not too bad.

L2 charging goes up to 19.2kw, so it’s definitely not 4x on all cars.

Clipper Creek Sells the CS100 J1772, and that uses a 100 Amp Breaker Max at 240 Volts (Can be fed at a lower rate, and the EVSE is adjusted down accordingly) So basically – any Roadster Owners have installed a earlier Version – the CS90 with a 90 Amp Breaker and 72 Amps at up to 240 Volts to the car! Tesla’s HPWC is basically equivalent to either of those Clipper Creek Units – depending on Roadster or Model S Wall Mounted Charging Stations. The 100 Amps typically added at home some times requires a Homeowner to upgrade their service from 100 Amp to 200 Amps; Some (with two Tesla’s) upgrade to 400 Amps! This is not so uncommon, apparently in the Tesla Community, but unusual in the LEAF/iMiEV/Focus EV/i3/Soul EV Community. The Most those typically add – is a 40 Amp Breaker for their EVSE, Seldom Requiring a Primary Upgrade to the Service / Breaker Panel! Basically any 240V Feed that can deliver a Spare 120 – 150 Amps – could feed this ‘Fast Home Charger’, either at home – or on the numbers of small businesses with some extra power left on their 400 Amp Services (Restaurants, Body… Read more »

I’ve got a 240 volt, 90 amp service in my garage, for my welder…still not enough for this charger. I don’t know anybody else with this big a circuit in their residence. Europe maybe?

Yes, 200 amp panels are common here in the USA, and required for most new construction.

For the whole house. What happens when your heat pump kicks in, and the oven is on, and you are using over half to charge the car? My welding is for a few minutes at a time, not hours at a time.

You’re correct to be concerned: There are actually more pressing issues I’ve fully addressed in an extended post further down.

With the proper equipment and a 100% natural gas fired house otherwise, it conceivably could be a safe installation on a 200 ampere electric service.

Very simple loadshedding is done already in many place.
I’ve got some in my own house between the electric furnace and the tanklees water heater.
Baby stuff.
You just don’t notice it.
Here up north in Québec it’s very, very common to have heating system that goes at about this power level (24 kW) and more.

This is an easy load to compensate for.

CHAdeMO charging is short term, so just shed the high power loads for a short period:

1) air conditioning / heat pump
2) electric hot water
3) electric dryer
4) electric oven / microwave
5) pool pumps / heater
6) anything else that consumes significant load and can be turned off for 10 to 60 minutes

No, that wouldn’t pass muster with any Electrical Inspector I know. As I mention below, the unit drawing 111 amps has to have everything sized for 140 amps since it is a continuous load, hardly ‘short term’. Charging an S would take at least 3 hours (24 kw charging rate on an 85 kwh battery) and hence it is a continuous load. Also, the only ‘plug-in’ household loadcenter cable of providing a 150 amp tapping is the QO style with 4 space taking circuit breakers to minimize hot-spotting on the bus.
Then, of course if it is to PASS an inspection, a load evaluation would have to be done at the house, which would mean the house could have NONE of the items you listed. That house would have to have either a minimum 300 or 400 amp service, 400 amps being the largest my serving utility allows on a residential service.

I’m not addressing whatever regulatory issues may be present.

If you have a 200 amp panel, with a 120 amp load, either the additional loads are shed or they don’t exist.

So, again, not rocket science. There are businesses in California that do nothing but mitigate demand charges with thiese methods.

It’s also how I do it.

Also, I think the NEC defines “short term” (not a continous load) as anything more than 2-3 hours.

It is highly unlikely any CHAdeMO charging session will be that long, and even more unlikely that the charger is designed for that kind of continuous duty.

Total Nonsense. The National Fire Protection Association has continually defined a continuous load as 180 minutes or longer for the past 90 years. Thankfully, Electrical Inspectors don’t go by what ‘you feel’. The NEC has been given, by the ‘authority having jurisdiction’, the force of law in 98% of the United States and also parts of Mexico. You can believe as you wish, legally in the remaining 2%. It is certainly not my responsibility to counteract every silly notion people who are not conversant with the subject at hand have to say about issues. However, there are several people here who have stated they want my clear statements on this type of subject. My post below shows what is needed to install these units successfully and to have the entire installation pass inspection, which most homeowner’s insurance policies mandate, and FURTHER, do *NOT* want to do anything at any time that would impede a future claim due to silly, irresponsible chatter. The fact that a unit could be charging a Model S is what an Inspector would look for. And presumably there will be other cars sooner or later that will have 70 kwh or larger batteries.

100 amps is very rare in Europe, even less 200 amps. Most houses have 3 phase power supply, either at the low 230 V between phases or at 400 V between phases and 230 V between a 400 V phase and neutral. So something made for a single phase230 V that pulls 100 Amps is of no use in Europe.
Actually Tesla got it right, they allow 400 V charging at 32 Amps which makes 22 KW charging. An excellent rate for at home.

In Europe, a new home typically has a 400V 3-phase 63A main inlet (43kW)

25kW should then be maximum at 1 phase, but I would guess that a typical setup would have to be restricted somewhat.

Also, in my area you have to check with the power company if you want to install 1-phase equipment drawing more than 20A, since the local distribution network needs to be able to handle high 1-phase power draw before thay allow it.

You must reside in Deutschland.

Not especially since I have exactly what he describes too. However many people have less than 63 A, rather 40A or even less especially if they are fossil fueler with diesel cars, gas stoves and fuel oil heaters instead of induction, ev and heat pumps.

This would be useful for @work charging where you have multiple users sharing a charger.

Maybe for fleet cars. But in a work environment regular old level-1 and level-2 work just fine because the car is typically parked there all day.

For Work Place Parking – they could have a Fast Charge (Paid) Optional Spot, for something like $5 – $10 a Use, as an Emergency Boost, supplementing the Primarily 120V x 15A and some Additional 240V x 20 Amp Standard Charging Options! It would help – to – for Guests that arrive at their business with EV’s, and be an attraction to bring Positive Environmental Benefits to their Credit!

One of my Engineer contacts at work (and EV Fest 2014 Exhibitor) Only needs 120V x 15A as a bit of a boost – during the Cold Weather – does not even need it in Summer!

However – a Lot of Co-Workers drive 80 – 120 Kms. (50 – 75 Miles) each way to and from work, so unless they have a Tesla – they would mostly need at least 20 Amp x 240V EVSE’s (16 Amps at the car) at work to get a full charge for the home trip, most every day! Some at the longer distances might need 40 Amps Services (32 Amps used by the car)!

Agreed, 100%!

Well, if the other poster was correct about the $7,000 cost, obviously this is not going to be runaway popular for home use. The current low price for an L2 charger is $500, four times that is $2000, not $7,000.

With more of these out there and a lower price, we could easily see a new standard for home charging. Don’t think in terms of todays cars. Think in terms of that Bolt or 48KWH leaf you are going to have. That’s going to look a lot better than an L2.

If you take this thing to an electrician, they are going to see big $$$ for the install, but they will say “yes”. And “yeses” tend to get discounted over time.

For businesses, if they deploy these commonly instead of treating them like some kind of special resource, that would be great. Otherwise, it will be like the many 50KW fast chargers I see lying unused at the end of a line of L2 chargers due to the $5 flat charge to use it.

I’d expect this unit to be installed at places where the Tesla HPWC unit is typically installed (ie. high-end hotels, restaurants and entertainment venues) to allow people to get a full charge in the time it takes to eat a sit-down meal.

But they really need to make the unit with BOTH connectors on it, not one or the other. CCS use is small today, but it WILL grow.

Look for these to replace L2 commercial charging. Eventually commercial charging will be Low power DCFC (city centers/suburbs); High Power DCFC (interstates) and long term 110v charging (in airports/long term parking).

I could see this DC quick charger replacing or acting as a upgrade to hundreds of public level 2 quick chargers

A example is in this story about the hundreds of unused level 2 quick chargers that are to slow to use on the open road

Sounds like a good work-around to the lack of automakers supporting the max J1772 kW, which I believe is around 20kW. These would be great at restaurants or parking garages with high-turn rates.

This charger is Built by EFACEC. IT was originally offered to BMW but they rejected it and went with another manufacture.

I don’t know don’t think 7000 is that bad yes I would be much happier with 3000 shoot I would be placing a order if it was at 3000 and with bigger battery Evs coming it would be great for my home
I am not a electrician I know I have 200 amp at house not sure if that is enough for this but time s are changing it maybe time to run a new meiter to the garge

This charger draws 25.5 kw which is 111 amps @ 230 volts. So the unit requires a 150 amp branch circuit. Pretty iffy for a home which had a 200 amp service, but it could be done if the homeowner changed out the residential loadcenter (like HomeLine ‘cost reduced’ products), and replaced it with a decent bolt-on style panelboard which had 150 amp capacity in its branches unlike the residential crap where 100 amp branches are pushing the design limits of the bus tap. In my area, the serving electric utility will provide 300 or 400 amp service, usually at no additional construction charge (and this can be dickered with the homeowner, provided he is satisfied with occassional 114/228 volt operation). So this is conceivably installable in someone’s garage. Installing TWO of them, on a small house with a 400 amp service, is also conceivable but would definitely be an eye-opener for all parties concerned. An upscale home ($650-1000K) in this area of cheap homes also unexpectedly would have trouble. These homes typically have 300 amp services, and the over $1Million homes have 400’s, however, to save money they are arranged as 2-150 or 2-200 using crappy panels that couldn’t… Read more »

If you have a use for a quick-charging at home, and you don’t mind a lesser look and a little DIY, here are 12, 20 and 25 kW CHAdeMO-compatible chargers starting around 4k$:

24 kW (actually 20 kW – 25 kW) Semi-Fast-Chargers Like these – are kind of like the 3.3 kW ‘Semi-Fast’ Chargers compared to 120V Service Cords that most EV’s come with: In the Sense that – A) 24 kW is a Bit Faster than a usual Level 2, but not tops in Really Fast Charging, and B) Slower than the typical 50 kW DCQC – just like the 3.3 kW on-board chargers are Slower than the 6.6 kW (and higher) on-board chargers!

Still – The Price of these Siemens units, and their level of Quality, might actually case more EV Dealers to Add Them, so as to move vehicle faster! Also – they make Nice Backups for the Higher Powered DC QC’s – and easier to install as ‘overflow’ units for the times when Lineups happen at the existing DC QC!

In Europe, the will need to provide a 3-phase version too.

At least here in The Netherlands, the most powerful single phase connection you can get is 1x40A. 40Ax230V = 9 kW. Not enough.