Sensible Versus Sexy – Chevy Bolt Vs. Tesla Model 3

JUL 11 2017 BY ERIC LOVEDAY 248

Tesla Model 3 – Source: Business Insider

Sensible or sexy? Which is right for you?

The Business Insider has presented the Chevrolet Bolt and Tesla Model 3 in a rather unique way. Pitching the Bolt as sensible and the Model 3 as sexy, Business Insider is trying to differentiate between the two cars, while at the same time making them each attractive for various reasons. Business Insider even included a couple of nifty graphics to present the case.

First up, the sensible Chevrolet Bolt. The advantages of the Bolt over the Model 3 are its hatchback design, which allows for large items to be loaded in the cargo hold and its high roofline, which provides ample headroom and  a feeling of spaciousness. It’s also simpler than the Model 3, in that it includes normal door handles and less frills within. It’s the sensible choice.

Business Insider writes of the Bolt:

“…an electric car that aims for practicality over sex appeal, while still serving up some tasty performance. Designer Stuart Norris and the South Korea-based studio made sure the Bolt was roomy inside and provided good cargo capacity.”

“The Bolt looks much more like an everyday five-door hatchback.”

Chevy Bolt – Source: Business Insider

But if you want sexy, then the Model 3 is probably the vehicle for you.

It sure is the head turner of the two, but there are some compromises. It’s a sedan with a small trunk opening, which makes loading bulky items near impossible. It’s complex with those fancy door handles and a massive central touchscreen. It’s also a bit tight in the rear confines due to its sleek exterior design that cuts headroom.

Admittedly, we could still see some slight changes on the specs for the 3 (as we are still waiting on those despite the first “key hand-over party” happening on July 28th) but we don’t expect anything to be too dramatically different from current expectation.

So, will it be sensible or sexy for you?

Source: Business Insider

Categories: Chevrolet, Tesla

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248 Comments on "Sensible Versus Sexy – Chevy Bolt Vs. Tesla Model 3"

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John

I think I’ll wait for the Model Y.
Hopefully it’ll be sexier than the X, and still sensible!

Chris O

Sedan form factor limits practicality. I think Tesla needs to do a wagon version to appeal to those who want a more practical version of Model 3 but not so much a crossover. Maybe Tesla figures Model Y will be the practical alternative for Model 3, but many of Model 3’s lower luxury class competitors like C Class, 3-Series and A 4 have wagon versions and they are pretty successful in some markets. Also it seems a shame to do only variant on the Model 3 platform now that Model Y will get its own platform.

Could look pretty cool too:

http://www.carscoops.com/2016/04/tesla-model-3-is-there-room-for.html

John

The Volt is my second Hatchback car, I’ll never go back to something with a trunk again. I’d definitely rock that Model 3 Hatch!

unlucky

You know the Model 3 isn’t a hatchback, right?

It has sloped rear glass but it doesn’t open. It has a trunk.

Bojan

I think he was referring to the photoshopped Model 3 wagon, not the actual Model 3.

I’d prefer the wagon as well. Maybe once Tesla is finished with the backlog of preorders for the sedan, they’ll make one.

Stimpy

Volt trunk is tiny. I’d guess the Model 3 will fit more than a Volt.

FISHEV

Tesla knows it made a mistake (per Musk himself) on not making the Model 3 a hatchback same as Model S and X. That is crucial to practicality.

Also the RWD of the base Model 3 vs. the more practical FWD of the Bolt.

And size for city parking and maneuvering.

And a bit more range, the ultimate in practicality.

So fair to say Bolt wins on practicality.

Stimpy

a Model 3 is still far more practical to take on a road trip as the CCS network is sparse-to-nonexistent.

La frennia di Mamata

It says on the M3 Specs Photo above that there is no Gas Gage ,Gee I wonder why? No Gas Gage? on an electric Car? …..

FISHEV

95% of “take on the road” the Bolt is a more practical vehicle.

The “road trip” is a more than a bit “apocryphal” and the low rate of usage of Tesla users of the SuperCharger network (around 10% of Tesla owners) is testament to that.

That the Bolt is a much more practical car is pretty obvious.

parrie

” Also the RWD of the base Model 3 vs. the more practical FWD of the Bolt.”

What do you mean FWD is more practical? Do you mean easier and cheaper to produce? Because after driving a RWD car I see no benefit in FWD Its either RWD or AWD. Everything else feels unsafe to me.

FISHEV

For anyone who drives on snow or ice or wet pavement, FWD is more practical than RWD.

Lawrence

Crossover/SUV that is sexy … that would be a first.

Unplugged

Sexy and Crossover SUV are not to be used in the sentence. Sort of like President and Trump.

Pushmi-Pullyu

+5

Alaa

The range of the model 3 will be more and the price is less than the Bolt. So GM will get nutted!

Tom

No one is paying dull peice for the bolt. Its effectively 32-35k

Tom

Full price* fml

mevp

Do you really believe you can buy a Model 3 for $35k? I bet they’ll be $45k – $50k, with only a few stripped cars made available in the $35k range (after incentives).

Unplugged

You do realize that you ORDER the Model 3?

But look to the 3 series BMW to get an idea of what a stripped version versus a loaded version looks like and costs. It’s comparable to how the Model 3 will be priced.

unlucky

I think you should look at how Tesla’s orders have worked in the past. If you order a base model it simply won’t be built until much later. After several price hikes ,etc. Look at the Model S 40kWh version.

You can order it but it doesn’t mean you’ll get it.

Mark.ca

Dude, the guy in charge said the base M3 versions will go out first…i don’t get why we even debating this. If you don’t agree open your own Tesla.

unlucky

He did not say that. he said the initial ones would offer few choices of configuration. He didn’t say they would be base models. Other than no AWD he wasn’t specific at all.

You can bet even though they are all similar they are not the base model.

john

Tesla has said that the first units will have big batteries. If you want a small battery strippo you might have to wait (some unknown number of weeks).

Pushmi-Pullyu

unlucky said:

“If you order a base model it simply won’t be built until much later. After several price hikes ,etc. Look at the Model S 40kWh version.”

I see once again Unlucky is ignoring facts “inconvenient” to his serial Tesla bashing.

The Model S40 was cancelled due to less than 2% of pre-ordering customers choosing the smallest of 3 available sizes.

The Model 3 has only 2 battery sizes available for pre-order, and it’s aimed at a much less expensive market. Given those facts, do you really think that less than 2% of Model 3 buyers will chose the smaller battery pack?

No, of course you don’t really believe that. So do us all a favor, and stop posting B.S.

The optional range might be more, but I highly doubt the $35k price range will be more, most likely less than the Bolt EV.

sveno

I’ll bet a base M3 gets better highway range than Bolt EV. City should be similar.

unlucky

I bet a base M3 gets less city range and about the same highway range.

BenG

I bet the base Model 3 has less city range than the Bolt, but substantially better highway range and the base 3 will edge out the Bolt on the combined EPA range by at least a mile or two.

Mark.ca

I bet that in a cow tipping contest the Bolt rolls over first.

john

One advantage of the Bolt is that it will be much less likely to be stolen.

JeremyK

We don’t know the range or the price of the M3. My guess is that the Bolt and similarly optioned M3 will NOT be the same price…with the Bolt being the lower cost.

Chris

The Bolt doesn’t even match the standard options of a 3. There is no comparison here. When they have to make “standard door handles” a pro for a car you know the battle has been lost.

Lawrence

You’ll have to tell us what the standard equipment and options are on the model 3, because that has yet to be disclosed.

unlucky

What are the standard features on a Model 3 you are referring to that a Bolt doesn’t have?

Supercharging capability I suppose?

Michael Will
Supercharging is one of them, just like the energy aware navigation that routes you through them so that range anxiety is a thing of the past, but also the continuous improvement focus on technology, like over the air software updates that keep improving the car over time. I really hate about my VW eGolf that it still has the same avoidable flaws it had 2015 when I bought it, which I know tesla would have fixed over night eventually. The other is the remote phone access that allows me to start the AC before I go to the car, to see if it is charging, to start charging, to unlock and lock the car, to get walking directions to my car etc, all performing very well in stark contrast to what I am used to from VW eGolf car-net service. And unlike car-net that service is included for free. It also helps that the base price of the model 3 is cheaper than the bolt, while you can add more options to the model 3 to push its capabilities far beyond the bolt. Like to have more range (largest battery I expect about 280 mile range on the model 3),… Read more »
unlucky

Tesla hasn’t released pricing on the Model 3 yet.

Base Price: $35,000.00; March 31st, 2016, Elon Musk, on stage!

Only price of options are not yet released, but he did respond last lear, the the Dual Motor Option would not cost the $5,000.00 it does for the Model S, but would be less!

Based on that, option costs for the Model 3 could be not less than half the cost of those on the S, but between that and some figure less than current option prices.

Al

I wouldn’t consider Tesla OTA updates as improvements. There are several threads on forums of owners complaining about reduced performance after some OTA updates. Most other are bug fixes. In 2.5 years I have not received any improvements in my Model S. I don’t consider Sketchup and Submarines improvements.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Given the uniformly negative Tesla bashing posts you’ve posted elsewhere, it would appear your “Model S” is entirely imaginary; merely a fiction you use to bash Tesla and its cars.

DJ

When you don’t even have an option for a speedometer you’ve lost out 😛

Comparing options on the Bolt and Model 3 IMO is kind of silly. The Model 3 has things the Bolt doesn’t have like the sensors for “self driving” meanwhile the Bolt has other things the Model 3 doesn’t have and at a lower price out the door and you can go get one right now if you want.

It’s not really just a Bolt or a Model 3 purchase decision IMO but hey comparisons must be made!

DJ, per “meanwhile the Bolt has other things the Model 3 doesn’t have and at a lower price out the door and you can go get one right now if you want.”, and as to the “and you can go get one right now”, that is not true over most of GM’s world wide market!

Much of the USA can’t ‘just go and get one’ now, and even by December, only a fraction of licensed GM Dealers may have it!

Already in Canada, the Allotment of about 1/2 of USA January Bolt EV Sales, or about 700 cars, are all sold out, and only if you put down some $2,500.00 Deposit, will they even suggest you ‘Might’ get a 2018 Model!

So, the Bolt EV Is Not The Most Readily Available EV out there as of now, or yet! Europe already sold out they small 2017 allotment of them already, too! Same issue: small production numbers!

sveno

Some base configuration M3 advantages that have nothing to do with the design/shape, in my view:
– Software (granularity of settings and features, remote control, usability of navigation)
-remote updates (car ages slower, could get even better)
-better performance
-a more peaceful interior
-more charging options
-faster charging (most likely)
-safer (most likely)
-better seats (Bolt EV seats are bad)

unlucky

Usability of navigation? I guess you didn’t see the mess that happened when Tesla switched map providers a couple weeks ago.

The navigation in a Bolt is either Google Maps or Apple Maps depending on what is on your phone. And it updates every time you update your phone. There is no way to complain about the navigation usability in a Bolt, well, at least while moving. I guess you could complain you have to connect your phone before it activates.

sveno

While your points are valid – only Teslas navigation will offer your A to B navigation with automatic on-route charging option/time calculation. It saves a lot of time!

unlucky

We can always hope Google Maps or Apple Maps adds it later I guess.

Right now Apple Maps has an option to find charging stations but it doesn’t even distinguish between AC and DC stations. So if I push that button my screen is flooded with charger options I’m not at the least interested in. It has a long way to go. And I bet Google Maps does too.

sveno

Well neither Google nor Apple can connect to a Supercharger station to check if there are free spots or available charging power to calculate where you should stop and for how long. That’s what I am referring to specifically.

sveno

Google and Apple also don’t know the capacity, Wh/m, SoC number of your car.

unlucky

Availability is availability on plugshare. There’s no technical reason why Google or Apple’s maps system can’t take into account availability for DCFC chargers.

They perhaps couldn’t get the data for superchargers but the Bolt can’t use them anyway.

sveno

In this regard even Leafs navigation is smarter but my god the interface is clunky and the data is old.

Stimpy

I’ll complain about having to connect it each and every time you get in or out. That BLOWS. We’re at the point now many cars don’t ever require taking the “keys” out of your pocket to unlock or start the car yet we should be ok with plugging/unplugging a phone all the time? NO WAY!

Lawrence

Everything that you listed is based off of … speculation. At what point have you actually sat and driven the Model 3. Have performance numbers been released yet?

sveno

I wouldn’t call something speculation that Musk has promised and still not backed off from?

Is it really unfair to assume that M3 will have the capability to charge at superchargers and use the ChaDeMo adapter? CCS in Europe like S/X? Also 3-phase AC charging.

Is there anything at all that points that M3s controls won’t be running similar software as S/X?

At the March 31st, 2016 unveiling, Elon said that you would be able to charge up a Model 3 anywhere there was a plug!

Based on them knowing standards for electricity, and EVSE specs in every country they already do business in, I would say that they are preparing the Model 3 to be more widely universally usable, even than the Model S or X are!

Bacardi

In 2017 pull up to a restaurant valet in a:

Tesla M3 and be swarmed by the entire valet staff where most will already have their phones out snapping pix…

Bolt EV and you will find it difficult to locate staff because the majority of the senior staff ran away as soon as they saw you pull up…

unlucky

It’s so funny to hear someone say valets are excited about Teslas. Around here they don’t bat an eye at $120K S/Xes. They aren’t going to go agog over a $50K Model 3.

And this is the area where most if not all 2017 3’s will be delivered. The valet payoff may have to wait until 2018.

Lawrence

It is funny to hear about people’s delusions. If they aren’t snapping pictures at the Model S and X’s. Do they really care about a Model 3? It’s the equivalent of a BMW 3 or Audi A4. They won’t care.

Pushmi-Pullyu

I don’t think the many reports from all those Tesla Model X owners who report being swarmed and incessantly questioned about their MX every time they open the falcon-wing doors in a public parking lot, are “delusions”.

Claiming you know more about the matter than someone with first-hand experience… that is a delusion.

Lawrence

I’m buying the car, but I’m not buying the ridiculous hype that the model 3 will somehow turn heads. The Model S doesn’t turn heads so that is a fair comparison given that it’s a car that costs twice as much, so somehow the Model 3 will wow people. Get ready to be disappointed when the valet driver parks your car next to the Accords and BMW’s and reserves the front spots for Bentleys, Lambos, and Ferraris like they always have.

Bacardi

Model X/S don’t have 400k-ish reservations…

theflew

Bolt owner goes to Ikea and leaves with a dinette table and chairs. Model 3 owner goes to Ikea in their truck.

Seems like a lot of Model 3 owners are more concerned with their image than getting a car that meets their needs. There is a reason why there is more than just one auto manufacture.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

Isn’t that what everyone does?
It’s the American way!

Look at Soccer mom’s. Most have one, maybe 2 kids and they take little Pookie to practice and games in a Tahoe/Suburban/Armada/Expedition.

So…you’re saying that Bolt owners like crap furniture? :p

Stimpy

Bolt owner hopes the IKEA is less than 100 miles away or they can’t make it home due to the non-existent CCS network.

Model 3 owner arrives from the next state having used the convenient superchargers the whole way.

Pushmi-Pullyu

theflew said:

“Seems like a lot of Model 3 owners are more concerned with their image than getting a car that meets their needs.”

You’re describing the American car culture. To Americans, that attitude is perfectly normal. Perhaps you live in another country, so haven’t been much exposed to that?

Al

In 2017 I’ve already pulled up to a bunch of restaurants. Not a Model 3 in sight.

WadeTyhon

Why choose? 😉

Get one now and the other later. Both cars have benefits and compromises.

But when their powers combine…

La Frennia di Mamata

Yea, But Only one looks like a REAL Car at a Lower Price … DUUU…. lol

WadeTyhon

Well, let’s see…

One looks like a small crossover/hatchback.

The other looks like a small sedan.

They both have 4 wheels… and are street legal…

Y’know, maybe I am missing something. Both look like cars to me!

Unless you are implying that one of them is a light truck or something? 😉

unlucky

It doesn’t look like a small sedan. It’s not small on the outside.

La frennia di Mamata

One is Puddle jumping Cartoon Car..

Pushmi-Pullyu

Nah, Benny the Cab is an open-seat roadster.

WadeTyhon

I hope it is! I need to park it in a cramped apartment garage when I get it.

From the dimensions I have seen, it is about the same length as a Chevy Cruze right?

Looking it up, they’re both about 184 length, 57 height. Model 3 is about 3 inches wider. But the Cruze has more trunk space. (Although, perhaps the Wikipedia dimensions are not exact. The car isn’t out yet after all.)

Maybe the Cruz isn’t considered a small sedan, but I think of it as one at least.

Lawrence

Good point. Most people have at least two cars in their family, so why not get one of each. We are getting both the Model 3 and the Bolt.

WadeTyhon

Exactly! Why paint ones self into a box if you are a two car household. Theyre the two best long range affordable EVs on the market right now!

We got the Bolt this summer. We are getting the Model 3 next year to replace our Volt.

Both will spend most of their time as commuter cars. The Bolt will be great for our camping trips and short drives to Austin or Oklahoma. The Model 3 should be perfect for when we take the rare long range drive to Chicago, California or Florida.

Mark.ca

I would get both but then i will have to fight my wife to see who drives the Tesla…and she would win!

Lawrence

Whatever. I doubt that the Tesla will be anywhere near what you all are hyping it up to be. It’ll be nice, but it won’t be anywhere Model S nice that everyone seems to think that it will be. Small difference between driving the Model 3 and Bolt will not be worth even reaching over the counter to grab one set of keys over the other.

Stimpy

Are you serious? The fun of RWD alone will make the difference. Torque steer is the opposite of fun.

WadeTyhon

Probably for the first month or so at most. 😉 My fiance wants to drive my bolt a lot too since it is the exciting new car for us. But that new car excitement will wear off quickly unless it is your first EV.

Especially when you realize that by the end of next year, hundreds of thousands of people will own the exact same car as you with most of the same options.

The Model 3 will probably replace the Volt and Leaf as (essentially) the Toyota Corolla of EVs. They will be so common that no one cares anymore! lol

So all that ultimately matters is that you have reliable transportation that is pleasant to drive and meets your needs. For me, the combination of the Model 3 and the Bolt will do that.

La frennia di Mamata

+1000 Wade

Mark.ca

Truth is 90% of the households don’t need 2 long range evs. One is plenty.

Can’t remember, but thete was a 2010 story of some people who bought a LEAF and a Volt! I Guess a Bolt and a Model 3 would be the All BEV version of such a plan!

Would like to find out for sure if the Model 3 will have any towing options!

VazzedUp

Sensible with 0-60 still in low 6’s. Front wheel drive for better snow performance. Dog fits in trunk. Not reliant on distant proprietary maintenance shops.

John

From experience:
Rear Wheel Drive with proper weight distribution does just as well in snow as Front Wheel Drive.

That being said….nothing drove like my Subaru in crappy weather. They do AWD right. I miss the car…but not the fuel bills!

La Frennia di Mamata

Always had rear wheel drive even in a”snowy Canadian area” , I drove an AMX a 2 Seater Top heavy 4sd Muscle car for 2yrs & I never got stuck in the snow…

rem83

Fwd provides better traction in conventional cars (front engine ice) mostly because the engine is in front and weight distribution loads the front wheels significantly more than the rear (often up to 60% of the weight is on the front wheels). This improves the friction on the drive/steering wheels. Tesla doesn’t have a front engine, it has a center mounted battery pack with rear drive motors. The weight distribution should allow the rear wheels to have much more traction than in a front engine ice car. I’m not sure what the weight distribution is in the model s but I wouldn’t be surprised by 55% on the rear wheels.

unlucky

FWD provides more useful traction in the snow because you are turning the driving wheels. If you get stuck you’re more likely to be able to “drive out” than of the rear wheels are just driving forward and back and the front wheels can’t do any real steering because the car isn’t moving.

ffbj

Right. It’s pulling rather than pushing the car.

La frennia di Mamata

Shut up & Push it , Push it Real Good !

Stimpy

FWD: sucks to drive all year, a bit better in the snow (assuming you don’t use snow tires which makes the problem mute)

RWD: fun to drive all year, good idea to keep a set of snow tires for better traction than FWD on all-seasons in winter.

I could out drive Camaro’s back in the Early 80’s, with my Mid Size, Front Wheel Drive, 1981 Chevy Citation, because I drove my Sticky Snow tires into Summer, and I kew the road, and how to drive it! The Camaro likely had All Seasons that offered less cornering traction!

Yet my Rear Wheel Drive 1983 Mazda RX7 GSL SE with aftermarket Turbo, only had the Stock Bridgestone tires: it could loose traction in wet roads under power, too easy!

Chris O

I don’t really see Bolt and Model 3 as competitors, they just appeal to very different crowds. Bolt appeals to the sort of people that would pay $40K for a compact hatchback while Model 3 appeals to people who would pay $40K for a lower luxury class sedan. That’s just wildly different markets with wildly different sales potentials.

zzzzzzzzzz

There are plenty of people between these 2 different crowds. People are not just black and white. When you have only 2-3 realistic choices of longer distance battery only car, you can’t choose something in between.

Who pays $40K for compact hatch? Bolt is $30K since everyone takes subsidy. There are people buying $30K “hot hatch”. But once the subsidy runs out, Bolt at $38K becomes highly uncompetitive.

Meanwhile, $35K for entry level luxury sedan is a “huge” market. Frankly, I don’t know why anyone would get a gasser BMW, MB, Lexus, Infini, Audi (and the list goes on) over Tesla 3 at that price.

unlucky

Because they want a luxury car and a Model 3 isn’t one?

Why compare it to an Audi when it’s a Ford Fusion equivalent?

If you think Tesla brand is equivalent to Ford, you are insane. Tesla is considered a premium brand far above anything big 3 has to offer, at for $35K regarded higher end than any of the “premium” brands.

unlucky

I don’t care about the brand. I’m not here to show it off. I’m not trying to impress others. I care about the car and how it relates to me. And the Model S/X aren’t even very luxurious for their price. The Model 3 carries this forward to a much lower price point and thus ends up not luxurious at all.

A car doesn’t become luxurious just because you put a nameplate on it. The Model 3 has an interior inferior to a Ford Fusion and a feature list approximately the same (the Fusion has had auto parking and such for quite some time, it’s actually rather advanced in its market segment). No, it doesn’t have optional autopilot, but it’s about as close as you can get in the segment.

unlucky: “I don’t care about the brand. I’m not here to show it off. ”

Ask yourself why would people buy entry level luxury BMW, Mercedes, etc. and why Toyota/Nissan made Lexus/Infinity brand. Unlike you, most people care about brands.

unlucky

I’m sure that there are plenty of people who buy branded cars just for the brand. That’s not my problem and it’s not my job to defend them.

I don’t understand why you think people who buy base models can’t be buying it for what it is. Sure, many aren’t. But some are. My point is there IS a difference between a luxury car and a Model 3. And while the luxury difference between an Audi A4 or A3 and a Model 3 is going to be smaller than between a S class and a Model 3, there is still a real difference. The Model 3 is not appointed like a luxury car.

Anonymous

For starters, I think most luxury cars splurge for a speedometer and instrument cluster.

Plenty of people? Try almost everyone. If a Mercedes costs the same as COMPARABLE Toyota, most will take the Mercedes simply because of the brand. This is precisely why we have Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Audi, Cadillac etc. and they are able to charge more.

Only a tiny minority would choose a Toyota over a comparably equipped Mercedes of similar price.

zzzzzzzzzz

SparkEV>
If you think people buy Audi 1 to signal their status to gold-diggers, you are mistaken 😉

That’s why I drive a SparkEV. It repels gold diggers. 🙂

Hmmm. Now that makes Tesla 3 less desirable: gold digger magnet!

Stimpy

A Ford Fusion interior is nasty and convoluted shapes everywhere while Model 3 is clean and minimal.

BenG

Yeah, unlucky has an axe to grind on this point of his about the level of “luxury” provided by Tesla.

I’d just point out to him that “luxury” is in the eye of the consumer, and not everyone is obsessed with how soft the leather is and how much dead tree is put into a car.

Tesla is undoubtably perceived as a sport-luxury brand directly competing with BMW and Audi, and they’re aiming the Model 3 directly at the BMW 3 Series and the Audi 4.

And Tesla sports a sky-high customer satisfaction rating by independent observers, so the people paying $70-150,000 dollars for their sport-luxury automotive experience are not complaining, the opposite in fact.

unlucky

You’d like to point out to me that luxury is in the eye of the consumer as a counter to me indicating that a Model 3 isn’t a luxury car? Are you intentionally or unintentionally backing my point?

Forget the brand. I’m not here to pay for the brand. You pay for the brand. I’m here for what the car is, not what it says to others.

A Model 3 isn’t a luxury car just because a Model S (sort of) is anymore than a Hyundai Sonata is a luxury car because a Hyundai Genesis is.

The car is luxurious because of what it is, not who makes it.

The Model 3 is an affordable, functional car with moderate-level appointments. Like a Ford Fusion.

If you convince yourself you are getting an Audi-level of luxury for the price of a Model 3 you are fooling yourself. And that, in a nutshell, is why people will buy Audis at $40K over this car at $40K. And others won’t.

ffbj

I suppose but then you get a luxury drive train, a luxurious ride, very silent, the luxury of ota updates, and autopilot.
It just doesn’t match your definition of luxury, or even many others, because it’s a different sort of luxury.

unlucky

There’s no reason to think the Model 3 has a luxurious drivetrain or luxurious ride. It is very quiet. But so is a 500e, so that’s not a luxury definer.

Autopilot availability is nice. No one else in the price range has that yet. When the LEAF gets it next year you’ll start calling it a luxury car?

BenG

Silly to compare a 500e drivetrain with the Model 3. Model 3 will obviously be much more powerful and will also be rear-wheel drive.

Yes, the Model 3 will have a luxurious drivetrain comparable to, or better than, that in the target BMW or Audi.

I also expect it will have an excellent combination of handling and ride, much like the Model S, due to the heavy battery pack and low center of gravity. Though we’ll have to wait and see, I expect the ride to be better than comparable BMW or Audi.

The quietness of the electric powertrain is a luxury aspect.

ffbj

No, since calling the Leaf a luxury car is a luxury I can afford.

Stimpy

A 530e has Ye Olde Transmission and is in no way comparable to a Tesla (or any BEV) when it comes to luxury drivetrain. Luxury is silence, no shifting, and max torque at zero RPM.

BenG

Right on, Stimpy.

BenG

Audi A4 starts at $34,900. I expect the Model 3 to match up well with the A4 (or the BMW 3 series) on merits as a low-end sport-luxury sedan.

For some reason you think the Model 3 will be more comparable to a Ford Fusion. I don’t know why you think that, but I disagree for now while withholding ultimate judgement until we see 3rd party reviews.

LS

So what exact features does a $35k Audi have that you think make it luxury?

Someone out there

If leaking water and crooked panels are considered “premium” these days I’m sure the model 3 customers will feel they got their money’s worth.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Amazing. Not one single Model 3 has ever been in the hands of any private owner or any reviewer, yet a Tesla basher is here to give us a review of the car.

You’d almost think it was complete B.S.! 😉

Al

But it’s OK for the Tesla fan boys to praise the Model 3 luxury interior appointments.

Stimpy

One can be shown in pictures and the other is a figment of your imagination. Can you tell the difference between the two?

a person

Most important aspects are left out

1 Supercharger for TM3 vs “we don’t care” for the Bolt

2. Autopilot

At least number one is worth A LOT.

The most despicable aspect is that GM could use the SC if they wanted for a fee, or build one in few months just with the money from 2-3 bonuses. But no, “we are not in the business of refueling”. Ok, keep it.

zzzzzzzzzz

Open standard 350 kW chargers are likely be all over the place both from Electrify America and from others before Model 3 will be available for real.

I don’t know if next year Bolt will be upgraded to take more than 150-160 A at peak, but nobody has public knowledge about real life Model 3 capabilities either until it is in mass production and widely available. Dreams and wishful thinking doesn’t count.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

“but nobody has public knowledge about real life Model 3 capabilities either until it is in mass production and widely available. Dreams and wishful thinking doesn’t count.”

Nobody has real life knowledge of Bolt DCFC over 50KW capabilities either and the Bolt is available. M3 out the gate will probably be 100KW SC rate and the Chad adapter will open it up to the public DCFC’s.

M3 will eventually have options for Dual motor for AWD, the Bolt has options for????????

unlucky

No reason to think the Model 3 will be 100kW capable, given that a Model S 75 kWh barely makes it to 100kW.

At least on the base model 3 that is.

zzzzzzzzzz

Trollynomous>

There are few 100+ kW CCS chargers in Europe and few rebadged Bolts, so somebody may had tried. There is one test charger in California too and as far as I remember they were allowing public to access it on request.

As for the Model 3, it is not reasonable to expect that smaller battery version one would charge faster than supposedly more upscale Model S.

unlucky

I don’t think the rollout will be as fast as you think.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

At Glacial pace.

BenG

Yeah, total pipe dream to imagine widespread public 350 KW public charging any time soon.

We’ll be lucky if we get widespread public 150 KW public charging within 5 years.

350 KW will be more than 10 years away.

unlucky

I don’t know what widespread means exactly, but I think your figures are too pessimistic.

I think we’ll see 150kW chargers being common in under 3 years. However, I don’t know if common becomes commonplace, because they still won’t be incredibly numerous. Not like gas stations for example. And existing 50kW chargers will still exist at the time, they won’t be upgraded.

It’s hard to get a read on 350kW. It seems super esoteric but I also know VW (Porsche) is relying on it. And they are about to roll out a lot of chargers. So I think at least some of those will be 350kW. Given this, I think 10 years until we see 350kW chargers commonly is too long.

BenG

We’ll see, but Tesla has been working on their Supercharger network for 5 years and still do not have coverage across the entire lower 48 states. I don’t expect 150 KW CCS to spread a whole lot faster than that.

There still isn’t a single car sold that can use 150KW, so while there has been an initial installation (has there?), the roll-out hasn’t even really begun.

unlucky

There’s a 150kW CCS charger in Fremont California. It’s really a proof of concept. It’s not publicly usable.

Check the label picture.

https://api.plugshare.com/view/location/75858

zzzzzzzzzz

BenG:
I don’t know what would qualify as widespread for you, but Electrify America plans are quite specific with timetables and numbers, you can read them.

Al

Supercharges are going to be dead in 3 years. Tesla won’t be able to afford the overhead while all other make use of public charging networks.

Stimpy

It’s charge per use, you know, like a gas station? How is that going to be dead?

You anti-tesla trolls really need to try harder!

Pushmi-Pullyu

If the Supercharger network is “dead” in only three years, that will be because there are enough for-profit commercial DCFC chargers that charge as fast or faster, so that it’s no longer needed.

I would love to see that happen! Sadly, the chances it will are slim and none.

Your assertion that the Supercharger network will fail because it will be too expensive for Tesla… well, such an expression of willful ignorance, ignoring basic economics, certainly outs you as yet another serial Tesla basher, and thus someone who doesn’t care if everyone can see that what he posts is complete and total B.S.

In the real world, unlike the Bizarro world of Tesla bashers and FUDsters, Tesla’s sales of new cars will support expansion of the Supercharger network, and will continue to do so until Superchargers become superfluous.

Anonymous

I think you tremendously underestimate the difficultly and expense of purchasing and obtaining permits to develop hundreds of building sites with access to high voltage power.

And Tesla opening up their patents is a far cry from allowing other manufacturers to make extensive use of their private charging network. As an owner of a $130K luxury SUV, how are you going to respond the first time you can’t access a supercharger because it’s busying charging a Leaf after Tesla let Nissan pay to add superchargers to their No Charge to Charge program? X and S owners are going to be pissed off enough when the peasants driving Model 3’s clog up their superchargers. Letting in outside manufacturers is a non-starter.

BenR

I think the existence of the Supercharger network makes the Model 3 a whole lot more sensible.

Yes, if you take a lot of long trips. Even with a short range EV, most people don’t need quick charging very often. So, a 200+ mile range means LESS quick charging is needed; not more.

Chris O

Absolutely. Even if people rarely venture beyond 200 mile round trips they still like a good answer to the question: what happens when the juice runs out? Tesla has it and GM…well it’s nuanced at best.

Al

That’s funny, I just pulled up to a DCFC in my Bolt and got 100 miles in 30 minutes.

Stimpy

Must be nice to live in California. Ever try driving your Bolt out of the state?

Bojan

I am thinking back, trying to remember what was the longest distance I’ve ever driven in a day…

Ah, yes, it was about 350km, which is still within the single-charge range of the Bolt. Even if it weren’t, I was going on vacation, so I wasn’t in a hurry and could have easily waited for the car to charge somewhere along the way.

Of course, being in Europe, I might see a Model 3 before I see an Ampera-e, but I won’t be seeing either of them any time soon. But that’s okay, I won’t have 35k$ saved up any time soon either.

Must be nice! One day after work I drove that in a fast Out and Back drive in Ontario, from about 6 PM to about 10 PM!

Road trips for me are typically about 1,000 Kms, one way, up to about 2,000 Kms One Way, but have been as far as over 6000 Kms on one occasion!

I know, in Europe, that is from many, to dozens of countries passed through, depending on directions and roads taken! But in Canada and USA, distances can be quite large, going from where you are, to where you want to be!

Apkungen

Model 3 is more sensible too, not only sexier!
* Model 3 charges about 3 times as fast (when compared with the bolt charging at a 50kw charger) and has an incredible reliable widespread fast charging network
* Model 3 has more space for seating 5 adults comfortably I am sure. Just look at the dimensions of the car.
* The range of the bolt at 75mph is 300km/190miles. The model 3 will beat that on the highway even with the base model.
* you will be able to get a tow bar on the model 3
* you will be able to get four wheel drive soon
* it will be way more comfortable for long drives

To sum it up: The model 3 competes with the top of the line vw pasat and the bolt with a medium equipped vw golf.

Only two things are certain: Model 3 will be able to tow, and it will have AWD option (at higher cost).

It may charge bit quicker than Bolt, but average power to 80% may not be even 1.5X Bolt due to the famous Tesla taper. It’s unknown how Bolt will do with 350 kW charger, so the difference might be even smaller.

There’s no spec on rear seat dimensions. If anything, I suspect Tesla 3 will have less rear headroom than Bolt.

There’s no official word on range. More likely, base Tesla 3 may be comparable or even bit less up to about 70 MPH, especially with AC. Not sure about heat since heat pump might make it better than Bolt.

unlucky

Why do you think the Model 3 will have a heat pump? Tesla’s more expensive models don’t.

I don’t know, but it’s not impossible. As mentioned, only two things are known, all the others are just guesses.

I suspect Model 3 will have smaller battery than Bolt, so they’ll try to squeeze out all efficiency tricks to up the range. But that’s just my guess.

Bill Howland

Why has the model “3” been released to Musk and others, yet we still know little of the basic car, nor options, nor pricing?

unlucky

Because it’s not really released. You can’t sell the car if it doesn’t have an EPA sticker. And it doesn’t have one yet.

It’s a production-intent or production model. But it wasn’t sold, it isn’t really for sale yet. I presume that happens before the end of the month when the other 30 are delivered.

That’s why I often say that Tesla will be late and that I will be pleasantly surprised if they deliver even few dozen Tesla 3 this year.

Another reason is IEV failure. Jay should beat up a Tesla employee until he talks, kind of like what you must do to Ford salesman to admit Ford has FocusEV.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

Isn’t it 215?
Also Tesla will probably lower whatever EPA rates it at and 215 may be that figure.

http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-modest-model-s-p100d-epa-rated-range/

At least 215 could mean anything. 215.001? 238.001? 314.15926?

Bill Howland

If the past is any indication, it is not likely the “3” will go much further than Musk said it will.

The BOLT ev does, but then GM either didn’t really know, or else they knew there would be catcalls if they got it wrong so they were extra conservative.

unlucky

I think the early models will and the one we’ve seen already will. I don’t expect them to offer a base pack model in 2017. I figure the one seen is about 255 miles normal range.

Michael Will

http://insideevs.com/image-appears-show-tesla-model-3-range-271-miles/ option exists for who needs it. Most people wont need it.

unlucky

My dash on my Bolt has read over 300 miles at times. Doesn’t mean it has a rated 300 mile range.

Mark.ca

My dash reads 125 sometimes but i never got over 95 actual miles…irrelevant.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

The GOM!
Gotta love to hate that thing.

lol

Nix

Exactly. Unless somebody has been driving on the EPA test cycle, whatever shows up on their dash display simply can’t be converted to EPA ratings. That’s true for EV’s and ICE cars too.

It is worse than trying to compare NEDC numbers to EPA numbers, because at least NEDC numbers are done on a defined test cycle. The dash display can be from anything.

Apkungen

Have you seen how slow the bolt charges at a 50kw charger? Check björn nylands videos. Goes down a lot after 50 percent to like 20-30kW. It is very unlikely the bolt would charge faster from a 350kw charger when it can’t even charge full speed from a 50kw charger. Biggest difference though is that there are no 350kw charges, no 150kw either. A couple of 100kw charges all over the world. But the sucs of tesla are everywhere! And so much more reliable

unlucky

Tesla has not announced any particular charging rate for the Model 3. And given only only the 90/100kWh battery Model Ses charge at the top rate and the Model 3 won’t be available with a 90/100kWh pack you can be sure it won’t charge at 3x the speed of the Bolt.

I’m sure the Model 3 is wider than the Bolt. I’m also quite sure it’ll have less legroom in back and headroom all around than the Bolt.

We’ll have to see what more comfortable for long drives means. Maybe that means better seats?

ffbj

I doubt they would be any worse, the seats that is. Don’t the seats of the Bolt suck?
At least that is the word on the street.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Lots of people say the front seats of the Bolt suck. Perhaps the rear seats are okay. Reportedly those rear seats have better headroom and leg room than the rear seats in the M3.

The Model 3 will have limited headroom in the rear seats, so lots of people will say rear seating sucks in the M3.

But since most people rarely carry passengers in the rear seats, I don’t know that the improved seating in the rear of the Bolt is going to be much of a selling point. GM really does need to do something about those front seats, and if they really want the car to sell, then they shouldn’t wait until next model year to do it. But I doubt GM is really interested in the car selling well, so my guess is they won’t.

unlucky

It may be hard to believe for those of you who don’t have one, but the Bolt front seats are really not bad. People are making a mountain out of a molehill. Blowing things way, way out of proportion.

Tesla drivers, know how when someone says that superchargers are still too slow because they only want to stop for 5 minutes at a gas station and go on? Know how you can’t quite say they are wrong because there really are some people who do that. But you know that most people are just overreacting and the time at a supercharger generally fits in well with driving patterns?

It’s kind of like that, but for Bolts and seats. There really are people the seats are impossible for. But it’s really not as common or as bad as you think.

ffbj

That may well be. I think it’s need specific, in that for various people one choice or the other is best.
If you drive a lot I would go for the M3.
If you mostly just do city driving get the Bolt.

As far the time it takes to sc your vehicle. I just plug in at home.

Pushmi-Pullyu
“But you know that most people are just overreacting and the time at a supercharger generally fits in well with driving patterns?” No, I don’t know that at all. What I do know is that, in general, most Americans won’t wait more than 15 minutes for anything. It’s a psychological thing, and I’ve seen it happen: A fireworks display delayed, and right at the 15 minute mark, most people drove off. The willingness of so many current Tesla car owners to spend ~30 minutes to get enough “juice” to drive 150 miles, is evidence that the EV revolution is still in the early adopter stage, and that like most early adopters, Teslae owners are more forgiving of the limitations of tech still in an early stage of development. Most Americans — heck, most first-worlders from any country — wouldn’t put up with that. I also take note of the survey that found 55% of PEV drivers say they have never used a public EV charger, so there are clearly a lot of Teslae owners who wouldn’t even think of putting up with waiting that long. As far as the Bolt EV seat problem: You’re right, I have no personal experience… Read more »
Kdawg

“* Model 3 has more space for seating 5 adults comfortably I am sure. Just look at the dimensions of the car.”
———-

I doubt it. The Bolt EV already has more passenger room than the Model S, and the Model 3 is a smaller version of the Model S.

darth

M3 is way more sensible for any type of long trip or touring because of Supercharging.

Also you can fit some pretty bulky stuff in a small sedan with a trunk and fold down seats. We cram all sorts of weird stuff into our Altima, which the M3 will replace.

theflew

The single Altima truck is 1.5cu. Ft. larger than both the truck and frunk of the Model 3.

JK

What about driving characteristics? How will the M3 drive?

I am concerned about the weight and suspension on the M3. With a steel body on the M3 compared to aluminum on the Model S, how will weight impact the M3?

The type of suspension on a car impacts how it drives. Is the M3 due to cost reductions going to have a cheap suspension system, and if so how will it impact the ride and handling of the car?

The Bolt was fun to drive, but still I was a bit disappointed. I was expecting the car would corner more like a model S than it did.

BenG

I expect the Model 3 to be a sweet-handling sedan for its class, like the Model S is for its class.

Sure the 3 is cheaper, but it’s quite a bit lighter weight, and Tesla had a lot more resources available during the 3’s design than during the Model S’s. Tesla has been openly targeting the BMW 3 Series, so I think they know that the standard they will be held to for handling is high.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Sure the 3 is cheaper, but it’s quite a bit lighter weight…”

According to who? Correct me if I’m wrong, but Tesla has not given the curb weight of the M3.

Smaller but with more steel and less aluminum in the body than the Model S; the weight difference might be less than you think.

ffbj

I’m guessing it is 15% lighter, due to the decreased battery pack weight in the form factor, but giving back 10% for steel instead of aluminum.
So Model S 60 rwd 4869 lbs
so 4200 lbs for the M3 60 rwd

JK

I too am expecting 4200 lbs for the Model 3. Hoping for 3950.

But how did those racing guys throw 1,000 lbs out of the Model S??

Pushmi-Pullyu

They are pretty aggressive about how much they throw out of the car to get it down to “racing weight”. They strip out the entire interior — not just the seats — and install just one lightweight racing seat. I would guess they also remove things like the heater and A/C, or at least the parts of it that aren’t connected to the battery cooling system.

See photo here:

http://autovolts.com/2016/06/30/tesla-model-s-p90d-takes-down-record-time-at-pikes-peak/

JK

Thanks for the photo link Push.

I wish Tesla would sell a few bare bones Model 3 cars. I think I would want the air and working Windows, but without seats, carpet, headliner, sound stuff and even just the most basic paint undercoat and wheels. One steering wheel airbag would be sufficient. The rest could be customized.

From an environmental point of view I wonder how much the safety and luxury features cost in terms of weight and vehicle efficiency.

BenG

According to me. ;0

It’s substantially smaller, ergo it will be substantially lighter weight. Some higher percentage of aluminum use won’t make up nearly the difference that being smaller and having a smaller battery will.

georgeS

The BoltEV IS a more functional design. The only problem is it’s on too small of a wheelbase. GM should have gone one size up in wheel base.

The only problem with going to a slightly longer wheel base is that they might have sold more EV’s and we certainly wouldn’t want that to happen would we GM.

I agree that the Bolt EV is more practical. But what does a longer wheelbase do? It already has small overhangs, so if the wheelbase was longer, it would also lengthen the car.

theflew

People keep saying the Bolt is too small, yet it’s wheelbase is 3 inches longer than the Buick Encore, Chevy Trax. No one is complaining about the size of those vehicles and they are selling well.

unlucky

And the Bolt has more space inside for passengers than those.

I’m not sure what a Bolt would use extra length for. I guess people want more trunk space? It’d be a waste of time to add length to the passenger compartment. It already has a lot of longitudinal space.

BenG

I’d like the Bolt to be offered with a wagon configuration, adding about a foot of extra length, partly wheel-base and partly rear overhang.

Giving it better cargo space and better rear passenger space.

unlucky

It doesn’t need any more longitudinal passenger space. It already has more footroom than the Model 3 will.

WadeTyhon

Passenger space is already fantastic unless you are a family of professional basketball players. 🙂

A bit more space in the hatch wouldn’t hurt I suppose. But it will carry decent sized luggage, carry ons, and 4 people with no issue. Fold down one of the rear seats if necessary for an oversized item.

BenG

Yeah I guess length of passenger space is fine. Option for more cargo space would be good.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“I’m not sure what a Bolt would use extra length for. I guess people want more trunk space?”

Maybe they want a longer crumple zone in front? Personally, I applaud GM for using the space efficiently. Reportedly the Bolt EV has superior legroom, which for me is usually inadequate, and a heck of a lot more important to me than most characteristics of cars.

One could always use more cargo space, but you can say that about any passenger vehicle. Even full-sized pickups are sometimes too short for what you want to carry.

theflew

The Bolt has done better in the crash test than the Model S, so crumble zones are not the problem.

Stimpy

Those two cars only exist to hit a price point. Anyone that can afford it goes the next model up.

For me, Model 3 is more sensible choice, because it can carry far more cargo using a trailer. Bolt is not rated to tow.

The Bolt EV Premier has standard roof rails, and you can put a hitch on it for about $120 and in less than an hour.

It’s lot harder to carry 4×8 sheaths, refrigerator(s), or even bonfire wood and grill for beach parties using short roof fails. Trailer works far better.

Any car can have a hitch installed. But doing so on a car not rated to tow could void the warranty. Musk has publicly stated that Tesla 3 will be able to tow, not merely have a hitch for bicycle racks.

unlucky

No way I’d put a trailer on just to carry wood for a beach party. To have to go through the trouble of backing and parking with a trailer just to carry bonfire wood?

Have a friend bring it or tarp it and put it in the trunk.

I haven’t moved a fridge or 4×8 sheath in the last 5 years. I don’t expect to move one in the next 5 years. I’ll rent a truck.

unlucky

Renting a truck would cost me less in the end than even buying a hitch to use it less than once per 5 years.

If renting/borrowing a gasser is the answer, why even bother with 200 miles range EV? SparkEV works just fine since I use the giant gasser for all the things mentioned. But the point is that I can do all that without invoking the gasser.

Sure, it won’t be as convenient as the most practical van ever made (Chevy Astro), but it won’t be eating 6 miles of gas just for couple of hours of beach BBQ and kayaking. Which, by the way, seem to happen far too often these days in unbearable 82F heat wave in San Diego.

unlucky

Because I use 200 miles range almost monthly while I would use a truck about every 5 years?

You’re making a false equivalence. Surely you can see the financial difference between renting a vehicle almost monthly and once every 5 years? Surely you can see that if a hitch is $700 (I hope not, but that’s what it costs on the X) I can rent two trucks (one every five years) during the lifetime of the car and still not spend $700.

Side note, I find it hilarious we’re arguing about burning 12 miles of gasoline for a trip to go to the beach to make a bonfire which pollutes more than 10 or maybe even 100 trips to the beach.

Other question: are all the AC Blink chargers in San Diego 3.3kW or did they fix some of them to go faster? If they are fixed, can I tell on plugshare or do I have to show up to find out?

Most people drive less than 50 miles a day on average, not 200 miles. Ability to tow is far more practical than 4 times the daily range than people typically use. It may be false equivalence if Tesla 3 has range like SparkEV or priced like Tesla S, but that isn’t the case. You’re getting towing ability for less money, quicker acceleration, better DCFC locations, etc. etc. You’re making up worst case Tesla hitch to make straw man argument. Bolt that isn’t rated to tow has $125 hitch available, yet Tesla is $700? You’re getting desperate here. What I actually meant is 6 gallons of gas (over 40 miles each way); I wish I live 6 miles from the beach, wouldn’t that be nice. Heck, I may not even need a car, just ride the bicycle with trailer. (example of false equivalence: bicycle is better than Bolt since bicycle can tow a trailer). As I mentioned numerous times in the past, I don’t care about emissions. 6 gallons at $3/gal is $18, about half a month electric bill for SparkEV including eVgo OTG membership fee. Wasting so much money in one afternoon “fun” is what I’m talking about. I don’t… Read more »
unlucky
No, you’re wrong. It doesn’t matter what the average is. If I drive 30 miles on weekdays and 300 on weekends, then my average is less than 110 miles. A recent LEAF, i3 or IONIQ has a range higher than that. But it still means I won’t have sufficient range 29% of the time. And about 8 days a month. You can’t just say a range is sufficient by comparing to averages. You have to look at use cases. And if I use the longer range about once a month and don’t trailer at all, how is the towing hitch more valuable to me? Most people don’t tow AT ALL. Not even once a year. Look at how many cars have hitches. So clearly more range is of value more to the average person than towing. And don’t forget that when you tow you’ll need that extra range. Your 80 mile car isn’t going to make it to the beach and back with a trailer on it. I really find it hilarious you’re trying to pump up towing as more valuable to the average person than range. I mean come on, you think that car companies are really that bad… Read more »

You argue as if I’m talking about SparkEV vs Bolt. Read again what I wrote; I specifically stated that I’m not comparing SparkEV (or bicycle) to Bolt.

Simple fact is, Tesla 3 has towing capability that Bolt lacks. Whether you use it or not is immaterial. It has the extra ability while costing less, performing better, better aerodynamics (quieter?), better DCFC network, Tesla badge, and probably few more points (no dealer hassles?) make it more sensible choice than Bolt.

Again, why does trailer hitch for Bolt only cost $125, yet you insist on $300 or $700? You’re still stretching it.

It’s your opinion that Musk tweet won’t be fulfilled, but he has stated that it will be able to tow. If he reneges on his tweet, Tesla 3 loses lots of luster for me, though it’s still more sensible choice than Bolt simply because of other reasons stated.

Only sensible reason for Bolt is if Tesla 3 subsidy runs out, making Bolt $5K cheaper. But even then, I’d probably go for Tesla 3 over Bolt if Tesla 3 can tow. If neither can tow, I’ll probably wait for next gen EV that can tow. I’m tired of spending so much money on gas.

unlucky

Any reason to think Model 3 is rated to tow?

Google “Elon musk tweets Model 3 towing”

kubel

Based on my Tesla Fanboy Assumptions Reference Guide, the single production Model 3 that exists is rated to tow a bagillion pounds and the Bolt EV can’t even carry a single passenger.

[hint, neither are rated to tow anything]

John Ray

Ah, yes. The T-FARG.

The Bolt EV has nearly flush front door sills, which is a welcome thing for some people.

The Bolt EV is 164″ long, and has a 102.4″ wheelbase, and the turning circle is 35.4′.

The Tesla Model 3 is 184.8″ long, and has a 113″ wheelbase, and apparently has a 37′ turning circle.

Warren

Save your breathe. Most of the people arguing for the Model 3 aren’t going to buy one anyway. They will have some other excuse when it finally becomes available. They are waiting for the $25K, 400 mile, SUV.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

I predict only half of the 400K on the wait list will result in sales.

Warren

I am not going to guess. Next year will certainly be interesting.

DJ

Of the original 400k I would say even half is too high. I know more people that have cancelled than have kept their reservation and when people realize they won’t be able to get it soon or it’ll cost a hell of a lot more than $35k to get it in 2018 I suspect many more will cancel.

I am sure some additional people will step in but we’ll have to wait and see how many it is.

Could it be even Tesla truly thinks it won’t go gangbusters given their refusal to divulge the current reservation #’s and no current plans to keep the SC ratio where it is today, or improve it. Given the supposed huge increase in the # of cars that could use it you would think something would be announced. Doubling the # of SCs just isn’t gonna cut it if they sell as many cars in 2017 and 2018 as they claim they’ll be able to.

Michael Will

Lol I know more people saying: I wish I had reserved earlier than that have canceled. But the surge in reservations will come when the model 3 hits the streets and people show each other how great it is without having to say: yeah it costs $100K+ so its not for you. Instead they can say base price $25,000 after incentives in california. Much different conversation. And electric driving is vastly superior to legacy gas cars, so we are in for a lot of iphone moments. Remember when we stood around and showed each other pinch-zoom?

Thats whats going to happen all over the place once model 3 ships in numbers and to outside of california.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Of the original 400k I would say even half is too high.”

But since you’re a serial Tesla basher, we know you’re not giving us your honest opinion.

The cancellation rate for reservations for the Model S, at least in the early years, was ~25%. Altho we can’t assume the same cancellation rate for the M3, at the same time it doesn’t seem reasonable to think the difference will be all that great.

Eco

Model 3 is both sensible and sexy … I have no desire for a FWD fugly hatchback Bolt with a wiper on the rear window for all that dust and grime from the poor aerodynamics.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

LMAO

Lawrence

All new fanboy argument …. when driving for long durations in reverse, the Model 3 is more aerodynamic and gets less dust and grime.

La Frennia di Mamata

Thank you Eco ! I could Not have said it Better than That!

DJ

And this parents is what happens to a kid who plays video games and watches TV all day long. They grow up and become adverse to “dirt”.

Pushmi-Pullyu

So… your argument is that the Bolt EV will appeal to those who enjoy their cars getting dirty. 🙄

Somehow I doubt most GM fans would agree.

Mister G

Model 3 for ME

William L.

Don’t want to buy a $35,000 car that looks like a $20,000 car.

theflew

Are you saying I shouldn’t buy a Tesla because it looks like a $20k Mazda 3 4 door? Let’s be honest Tesla is just saying it compares to a 3 series BMW or C series Mercedes. But they don’t tell you how it compares – performance, dimensions, accessories, refinement, handling, cost?

BenG

All of the above.

Stimpy

If you think a Model 3 looks like a Mazda 3 I’d hate to hear your opinion of the Bolt! LMAO

BenG

Anyone else notice that Business Insider put “The sloping shape is aerodynamic” on the wrong car?

Aerodynamics will be a substantial advantage for the Model 3, in part due to the “sloping shape” of the rear window as opposed to the near vertical rear window of the Bolt.

The Model 3 is also described by the blurb on the Bolt about the battery taking up the whole floor and providing structural strength.

Lawrence

Substantial? So why do ICE cars that have hatchback/wagon equivalents have the same MPG?

Pushmi-Pullyu

Because in general, gasmobiles are so profligately energy-inefficient and wasteful of their fuel that a difference in aerodynamics is often swamped by other differences, such as a larger/smaller engine or the transmission gear ratios.

The far smaller energy available from a BEV’s battery pack has to be managed much more carefully and more efficiently by EV designing engineers.

Lawrence

Nice bunch of BS. Inefficiencies between both ICE sedan and hatchback variants are equal since all mechanical components are identical, therefore if there were a “substantial” difference between the two in terms of aerodynamics, there would still be a delta between the two. If cars that get 35 mpg don’t show at least a 1 mpg difference then the difference is less than 3%, which is negligible.

Pushmi-Pullyu
Mea culpa, I didn’t read your post carefully enough before responding, and didn’t realize your comparison was restricted to, say, sedans vs. wagon versions of those same sedan models. (A hatchback version of a sedan? Are such things common? I can’t think of any offhand. Perhaps more common outside the USA?) The reason why there isn’t much if any difference there is because fuel efficiency, at least at highway speed, is far more dependent on drag than on other factors, including weight. Obviously a sedan and a wagon of the same model line will have exactly the same frontal area and exactly the same streamlining on the front half of the car, and thus close to the same overall drag. Of course there is some difference in drag due to turbulence at the rear, and there will be some difference between drag in a sedan vs a wagon due to that, but it’s only a few percent, so far less difference than a change in the frontal area or a change in the shape of the nose. Contrariwise, when comparing the Model 3 and the Bolt EV, the M3 has much better aerodynamics and significantly lower drag. We already know… Read more »
BenG

The Model 3 isn’t a sedan variant of a Bolt, it’s aerodynamic advantages go beyond the design of the tail.

Bolt’s CD is .31 vs Model 3 target of .21, and Model 3 probably also has a lower frontal area, considering that the tall Bolt has frontal area almost as big as the Model S.

These will indeed add up to a substantial advantage in aerodynamics for the Model 3 that will pay off with better highway range. As a comparison point note that the Model S has better highway range than city range (i.e. the 90D with 286 in the city vs 303 on the highway) while the Bolt has much better city range than highway (255 vs 217). That difference between the cars comes down mostly to aero.

Longvsshort

The Model 3 has greater appeal only in the sense that people are evidently more appealed to it.

Pushmi-Pullyu

GM is planning on making only ~30,000 Bolt EVs the first year, and has pretty strongly indicated it has no plans to ramp up production to any significant extent. (For example, no move by GM to build its own battery factories.)

Contrariwise, Tesla is planning on ramping up production ASAP to ~400,000 per year.

For the Bolt EV, appeal may not matter much, since GM apparently has no intention of ramping up production to any significant extent. For the Model 3, appeal — and therefor demand — matters a great deal indeed!

unlucky

GM not planning to build their own battery factories does not indicate anything about how many batteries they plan to use;

Using external suppliers does not mean you won’t or cannot get as many batteries as you want.

If you have actual information on how many packs GM is planning on buying (and setting aside money for) next year then that means a lot. Saying they are not building their own factories does not indicate anything about this.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“GM not planning to build their own battery factories does not indicate anything about how many batteries they plan to use…”

I’m tired of arguing with you on the point, Unlucky. Clearly you’ve made up your mind and refuse to be confused by mere facts and logic.

Let’s revisit that question in a couple of years, Unlucky, and see who is right.

Kirk

And Jennifer Lawrence is only beautiful in the sense that a lot of people think she is beautiful.

BillT

For replacing my wife’s ICE RAV4 the Bolt has a chance due to the utility factor of the hatch back and relatively high seating position. No chance of the M3 fitting the bill for her. Neither of us care at all about the brand prestige or “coolness”.
The model Y might be a candidate if they don’t sacrifice too much utility in the name of aerodynamics and use normal doors and framed windows. We use my Volt for road trips so Supercharging isn’t a selling point for us right now. When it is time to replace my Volt in 2024 or so I will care about fast charging and highway range.

abc123

My problem with the Bolt is that it looks too practical/utilitarian/boring. Not the car for you in you’re an attention seeker. I would not be caught driving this car if I was single.

My problem with the Model 3 is that is looks sleek and fast because of it’s resemblance to the Model S, but it really isn’t. So it goes under the “All show but no go” category. You will not see this car in the Dragtimes videos like the ones we’ve seen to date.

Which is worse? Practical/utilitarian/boring or “All show but no go”. I’ll stick with the practical/utilitarian/boring and save myself the humiliation of being beat at every stop light by cars that cost less.

My bet is that somewhere down the line, the Model 3 will get a ludicrous mode or something like that which would improve the 0-60 times to around 4 seconds.

BenG

Model 3 will be a good performing car. Hardly “all show and no go”.

Base Model 3 will be quicker 0-60 than a base BMW 3 series, I bet.

And I agree that we will see a Model 3 P75D (or similar) w/ Ludicrous, but I expect it will do 0-60 well under 4 seconds. It won’t be as fast as a Model S P100DL, but it will beat a BMW M3 0-60, which would put it at about 3.7 sec maximum 0-60. I’m guessing more like 3.3 sec or so.

unlucky

A base 3-series (in the US) is under 7 seconds. That’s about the same figure Tesla says the Model 3 will come in at. I don’t know if it’s “no go”. But it’s not really fast anymore.

Stimpy

The Model 3 will be faster than the bolt, no doubt about it. And since it’s RWD (optionally AWD), it will be much easier to accelerate without losing traction. FWD makes for terrible launches. You can’t beat physics.

BenG

Tesla said the Model 3 would come in under 6 seconds 0-60 and later a chart surfaced that said 5.6 seconds. Either one is quite a bit better than 7 seconds.

Nix

unlucky — Source please?

This place called insideev’s (maybe you heard of them?) got ahold of Tesla internal docs that say the Model 3 does 0-60 in 5.6 seconds.

http://insideevs.com/tesla-releases-new-model-3-details-model-s-comparison/

Tesla’s official website says “Under 6 seconds Zero to 60 mph”, which is much closer to 5.6 seconds than 7 seconds.

Meanwhile, BMW’s own US website says their first TWO 3-Series sedans range from 7.1 to 7.4 seconds from 0-60:

2017 320i Sedan 2.0-liter BMW TwinPower Turbo inline 4-cylinder 7.1s 0-60 MPH Starting MSRP $33,450

2017 328d Sedan 2.0-liter BMW TwinPower Turbo Diesel inline 4-cylinder 7.4s 0-60 MPH Starting MSRP $40,250

The closest 0-60 match for BMW is actually their third highest trim level, with 5.5 0-60 and a starting price tag of $38,750:

2017 330i Sedan 2.0-liter BMW TwinPower Turbo inline 4-cylinder 5.5s 0-60 MPH Starting MSRP $38,750

https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3series/sedan.html

I think the response you are searching for is simply “my bad, I hadn’t checked the numbers…”

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Which is worse? Practical/utilitarian/boring or ‘All show but no go’. I’ll stick with the practical/utilitarian/boring and save myself the humiliation of being beat at every stop light by cars that cost less.

You’re making no sense. If you want to buy a Bolt EV, then by all means buy one. But deciding against the Model 3 because you think it will have poor performance, is downright silly. The M3 will, without question, beat nearly all but the highest-performance gasmobiles at stop light drag races… if that’s really important to you.

Will the M3 have as good a 0-60 performance as the Model S? Of course not. But in stoplight drag races, it’s the 0-30 time that matters, and even a Leaf can beat most gasmobiles at that. The M3 will certainly outperform a Leaf, and even the base trim level M3 will almost certainly outperform the best trim level BoltEV!

Pushmi-Pullyu

*Sigh*

Once again comparing a car that someone can actually buy, with one for which we haven’t even seen full specs.

These comparisons will all have to be re-done when we have seen actual independent reviews of the M3. Until then, these articles are basically thumb-twiddling while waiting for the full Reveal of the Model 3.

About as useful as working one of those double slider crank “executive pacifiers”.

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Nix
Seems like two cars that will both find buyers, just like there are literally hundreds of different ICE models of cars available around the world that different people choose to buy. I’m looking forward to the near future when there is a long list of 200+ mile $30-$40K base price EV’s. Some day there will have to be as many EV cars for mass market buyers to choose from as they currently have ICE cars to choose from. So the more choices to fit more personal preferences of the most number of people the better. There is no such thing as 1 perfect car for everybody. There isn’t just 1 ICE car that everybody buys. EV’s won’t be any different. Everybody will bring their own preferences and priorities into each of their own buying choices, and neither of these are bad choices. (Not like a Coda, or anything leased through Better Place.) It is a bit of a bummer that the Bolt vs. Model 3 meme has become the new Volt vs. Leaf meme that used to be ubiquitous a couple of years ago that everybody got sick of. It makes for yet another boring overdone meme.
Pushmi-Pullyu

“It is a bit of a bummer that the Bolt vs. Model 3 meme has become the new Volt vs. Leaf meme that used to be ubiquitous a couple of years ago that everybody got sick of. It makes for yet another boring overdone meme.”

Well said, Nix. The Model 3 isn’t even released yet, and I’m already sick of the “versus” comparisons, as if the two cars were boxers sparring in the ring.

The important thing here is that the EV market is expanding. That’s a win-win for all EV advocates and enthusiasts, regardless of which car they think is “better”.

Silver bolt

Interesting how everyone is sure they know what the M3 will be like. Range, trim, price, etc. I would expect that the range isn’t impressive or there would have been a tweet.

Even if I wanted a M3, it would be years until I could get it since I didn’t place a reservation.

I happen to like a small hatchback. Easier to park and the upright driving position is nice. So I will just continue driving my Bolt and maybe in a few years when it’s got a pile of miles on it, I might look at a tesla as a replacement.

The only real advantage I see is the tesla supercharger network. After taking a long trip this weekend, I want a ice car for long road trips. Waiting to charge takes far too much time. I think users will quickly find that charge rate is limited by the battery size.

DJ

Well ya. Tesla fanboys know everything. If you don’t think the Model 3 is the busters thing in the whole wide world they think something must be wrong with you.

In reality the best car is the one that works best for you and your situation.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“I would expect that the [Model 3] range isn’t impressive or there would have been a tweet.”

You mean, like this?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
edudzi.‏: “Please tell me the Model 3 offers more range than the Chevy Bolt.”

Elon Musk: “Oh so little faith”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

https://twitter.com/edudzi_/status/845283556184199169

However, it’s possible that only the larger of the two M3 battery pack sizes will give the M3 a longer range than the Bolt EV. We just don’t know.

I would certainly not assume — simply because Elon isn’t tweeting up a storm about it — that Tesla is embarrassed over the EV range of the M3. Tesla has been “anti-selling” the M3 for months, aggressively trying to fight the Osborne Effect and support current sales of the MS and MX.

Stanley

I’d never buy the Bolt, I worked at GM indirectly for their Hughes Electronics / DirecTV division while GM owned it. We had DirecTV, Spaceway, Expressway, different satellite systems. On-Star is Expressway revamped, ReMarketed, ReNamed under a different moniker.
GM was giving peoples driving habits away and driving destinations to FBI Freaking Bureau of Idiots, on request without a warrant. just Like Patriot act.
Before you say “I have nothing to hide”, right up until they find out your wife or you just visited some gay club or your mistress and use that to Blackmail you. or you Teen son borrowed your car without your knowledge to buy some Crack, or the Valet went around the block with your car to buy some crack before parking. And they pin all that on you. And you wipe out your savings to defend yourself.

Tin foil hat? If you think GM is the only one doing this, you should’ve taken the red pill. As far as data collection goes, Tesla collects far more data than GM with their S and X, and probably also with 3.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Truth.

The OnStar system can, apparently, be disconnected without affecting the functionality of the car.

Contrariwise, a Tesla car’s tracking system is much more integrated into the car’s Autopilot functionality. Disabling that would be at best problematic, and quite possibly downright dangerous. I see no reason to think that won’t apply to the Model 3 just as much as it does to the MS or MX.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Wow, dude, the black helicopters are coming for you!

Seriously, I have never heard of the FBI “blackmailing” anyone, unless you’re talking about pressuring a criminal to turn state’s evidence to prosecute another criminal. “Give us money or we’ll tell your wife/husband you’re having an affair” is something the FBI does not do, and if you think they do, then you believe the FBI is a criminal organization.

That said, I am very concerned about right to privacy and about our country’s turn away from Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms following the 9-11 attack. But to advocate we shouldn’t buy a GM car because OnStar is used to track people’s movements, and GM has on occasion been too free with that info… that definitely puts you into the tinfoil-hat brigade.

If you’re really worried about it, then remove the fuse to disable the OnStar system in your car:

http://www.wikihow.com/Deactivate-Onstar

Nix

Stanley, I feel your pain. But unless your cell phone is ancient, they can collect the exact same info everywhere you go, not just in your car.