Renault To Equip Future EVs With 22 kW AC and 100 kW DC CCS Combo Charging

OCT 24 2016 BY MARK KANE 57

CCS (Combined Charging System) - single inlet for AC charging and fast DC charging

CCS (Combined Charging System) -a  single inlet for AC charging and fast DC charging

French media reports that Renault is considering two charging options for its future electric cars:

  • 22 kW AC (three-phase Type 2 inlet)
  • 100 kW DC (CCS Combo – European version)
Renault ZOE

Renault ZOE

Both methods are available through using the CCS Combo inlet, and as such, Renault already has become a member of the CharIN CCS DC fast charging group this past June.

These development plans for Europe-based Renault, probably means that new partners Nissan-Mitsubishi have been left alone as the major backers of the CHAdeMO protocol in Europe…although the two OEMs have combined already for some ~525,000 sales through September to date.

According to the report, Renault’s base charging offering will include 22 kW AC, which is well-fitted to the European grid, as there are few obstacles to install three-phase 11 kW charging station in most countries, and public 22 kW spots are relatively cheap compared to stand-alone DC fast chargers (50 kW or more).

The CCS Combo DC option will become more of a complimenary option for longer journeys, with acceptable power of at least 100 kW.

Eric Feunteun, Director of the EV program said:

“Up to 22 kW AC load is in the heart of our strategy and remain integrated in the entire visible horizon in our new vehicles. For us it is a real advantage over the car but also in terms of costs with terminals much more affordable in comparison to the DC load.”

“In Germany, where every house is equipped with three phase load domestic AC 11 kilowatts is quite common. This is a real competitive advantage!”

“Between AC 22 kW Combo, there will clearly cohabitation on future models. Soon it will move to the load 100 kW and more, it is clear that the Combo 2 standard, which was imposed in Europe , will be our standard. This is information we want to share to help investors make the right choices in terms of infrastructure,”

source: Automobile Propre

Categories: Charging, Renault

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57 Comments on "Renault To Equip Future EVs With 22 kW AC and 100 kW DC CCS Combo Charging"

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I just hope that Renault now stops with the stupid battery rental thingie and just sell the batteries together with the car.

that is what you can do with the new zoe

I thought it was limited to a few countries only.

Not in all countries, here in Sweden they don’t sell the car and because of some stupid reason they don’t sell the version with 43 kW charging, only the version with 22 kW. Don’t Renault Sweden understand that fast charging is important?

Well maybe AC higher power fast charging has its issues, and so Renault is looking to use CCS DC charging in the future to enable long distance travel with longer range EVs. Battery packs need to be big enough (IMO at least 40-50 kWh) to make travel convenient along with high power fast charging.

The two main issues with AC charging are the heat and the efficiency.
With 80% of efficiency at 22-43kW, it’s not very good at all, but at 3kW, it’s worth the efficiency is about 55-60%.
The heat is a direct consequence of the 80% of efficiency. 20% of 43kW is ~8.5kW. You have to cool the motor, the inverter and the batterry.
The Chameleon charger is a ‘false good idea’. Ok, you can charge at 22kW AC, but the efficiency is really bad.
Combining a 7kW AC charger and a 100kW Combo charger is better for the efficiency. ~95% against ~80% at the best.
At 7kW you can refill 50kW per night, or more than 300km per night. On the road far from your house, you can refill at 100kW DC.

In the states there would be an additional problem to the mediocre efficiency you mention: lawsuits requiring a separate charger in all models sold in the states with the exception of the Tesla Roadster.

Initially, there were even lawsuits over that model.

In Germany, the 43kW AC charging Zoe is also not sold anymore (only the very first Zoe (before the 1st facelift), but e.g. in Austria). But you can already by a Zoe incl. battery. But then only 66% capacity guarranty and renting as normal person costs max. 119EUR/month.

notting

Renault Germany appears to be thinking about putting up the Q90 version of the Z.E.40 in Germany.
At first they thought there was no demand, but apparently there is, what wunder…;-)

This is interesting. I wonder if there’s any chance for something more like these AC levels in the US?

For home-based and work-based free charging, what we have now is more than sufficient.

However, for “opportunity charging” having a higher rate like this likely increases commercial viability. You can sell many more kWh of charges if you can get people in and out of the station in 30-60 minutes. Of course, we’d need more J1772 stations that go up to 20kW as well.

More likely the lower power 24 KW DCFC will be available in the US.

Hmm… hence DCFC levels right?

IMO a fast charge location of 2-4 fast chargers (or even more in the future) is what is needed to handle enough volume of EVs to avoid queuing and ensure availability and reliability. That way if one fast charger has a fault error or something then the location still serves its customers. And, (what made me think of this in the first place) like you said, economies of scale are more easily achieved with more kWh being sold.

Well, I was thinking AC, so the charging stations would be less cost prohibitive. Of course, there’s a trade space there, because then you need the charger equipment in the car.

Six to one, half a dozen to the other…

We don’t have ubiquitous AC three phase in North America. Europe does, and it uses a Mennekes Type 2 plug.

So, no, we will never (in my lifetime) have:

11kW (16 amps)
22kW (32 amps)
43kW (64 amps)

three phase AC charging (called Chameleon by Renault).

The current highest AC charge standard in North America is 19.2kW (single phase 240 volt @ 80 amps, thanks to Tesla petitioning the SAE to raise the current above the world standard of 30 amps (it is still 30 amps in Japan and Europe for J1772 / Type 1).

Tesla cars can accept 277 volts, so it is possible to charge at 22kW in North America (277v * 80a).

Well, Tesla seems to be discontinuing the 80 amp option, seemingly offering only 48 and 72 from now on.

Just because something is non-standard doesn’t mean someone somewhere wont try it.

A few weeks ago I was working on a 40 hp phase converter running a 35 hp hydraulic elevator – the main service is a residential 400 amp.

Even though this elevator is not your typical home installation, it works fine.

There is absolutely no reason why someone couldn’t import a RENAULT with 22kw charging, and have it work in their home, provided the utility allows 400 amps, which mine happens to.

Servicing the car in the states would currently be the bigger problem.

Never in your lifetime? Well prepare your will, because there is already 14kW Level 2 stations in the US.

There are several Sun Country 70A Level 2 stations and the standard for US-style J1772 allows for up to 19.2kW. So today, we are at these levels.

To be clear, I was referring to single phase in the US, which you seem to also acknowledge.

I was talking power levels (around 20kW) and not specifically three phase charging in the US.

Yeah, CC, there seems to be the mistaken impression by others that Europe’s and north America’s somewhat differing distribution systems present some form of insurmountable problem.

Nothing could be further from the truth – especially in the past few decades when conversions from one type of power to another type of power are trivially easy.

I’m not talking about any solid-state developments… The phase converter I mentioned previously owes its economy due to low priced capacitors developed 60 years ago.

Great points Bill. These types of power conversions are definitely well understood and easy these days.

It is called Chameleon because it adjusts to any single or triple phase input from 3kw to 43kw.

100 kW charge rate would give you around 30-33 kWh in 20 minutes, or 105-115 miles of AER at 65 mph for most non-SUV sized electric cars. 20 minutes of charging for 1.5+ hours of highway driving isn’t great, but it is good enough for a lot of us. 30 minutes would be more like 48-50 kWh if you didn’t start to taper, which isn’t likely with non-Tesla packs. So maybe 45 kWh in 30 minutes, so maybe 160 miles of AER in 30 minutes, or more than 2 hours of driving for 30 minutes of charging. That is pretty decent.
I wish we had these chargers here in the States. Now that the Bolt is 2 months from showing up, I imagine we will be seeing more CCS chargers showing up here, though.

It’s too bad about Chademo. They could’ve used another player, and maybe force more companies to consider going that route. Now there are Nissan, Mitsubishi, Kia (or will they switch to CCS?), quickchargepower.com vs all others. It’s not looking good for Chademo when even Nissan aligned Renault is going CCS.

There is a company that is building chamo inlets for the Tesla Roadster and the Toyota RV4 EV.

That company is called quickchargepower.com, which I include in my post above. One big reason I cheer for Chademo is for that company, which I am a huge fan. No other after market company provide such innovative service/product for EV.

Chademo should die. It is an early first attempt, crude by comparison to later developed systems.

I agree. It doesn’t even have an AC-connector so every Chadrmo car needs two different connectors and wirings, which costs extra momey.

Chademo connector is the same all over the world while CCS needs different connectors due to type-1 vs type-2 vs who know what else in the future. L2 connector alone is cheap whereas L2+DCFC of CCS is not cheap. Then Chademo isn’t so bad for global car company.

What is bad is larger port opening for Chademo. Had they dealt with this issue, it would’ve been more attractive (literally).

Since chademo doesn’t support AC it is a bad standard no matter how you compare it.

What we need is a common world wide standard that supports both AC and DC up to 800 or even 1000 Volt in a convenient package, because that is where we are heading soon enough.

What I mean is if Chademo DC combined with L2 AC in one connector way back when CCS was being discussed. Backward compatibility could’ve been provided via dongle like quickchargepower.com is doing with Tesla destinations chargers for J1772 cars. Oh well, spilled milk.

By the way, where was quickchargepower when Chademo/CCS was being hammered out? I place all blame of DCFC fragmentation on quickchargepower for being late to market! 😉

They have asked me several times to join the CCS club. Every time I asked for the specifications, they claimed they weren’t available, so I saw no reason to join 😉

I don’t know if folks even understand that Renault NEVER adopted CHAdeMO, and that Renault, Nissan and Mitsubishi are now officially all part of the same big happy family?

No, blame still rest with you. You could’ve said “Home plug is crap. Why do you want to introduce another protocol when you already have a simple and robust CAN already in all cars? You’re FIRED!” and then propose to make better Chademo and backward compatibility. 🙂

Yeah, I know standards body don’t work this way (unless you’re 800 lb Gorilla like Intel), but sometimes it’s fun to think about. Some stuff in standards are just beyond insane.

Not many cars ever drive on both sides of the ocean.

I was also thinking something similar.

The standard J1772 plug should also have died when they designed the new US CCS connector, but they went for backwards compatibility. There’s no reason why they couldn’t have had a common socket.

But really, it doesn’t matter much. The cost of a cable and plug is only a small part of the overall cost of a DC charger.

There is no other developed DC charging system that is worldwide standard. Zero. Nil. Null.

All others are just fragmented regional standards, different on each continent/country, with multi-standard chargers in practice. CCS Type 2 in Europe, CCS Type 1 in US, Tesla non-standard in US, Tesla non-standard Type 2 extension in Europe, GB in China, and so on. Only Japan is single standard (Chademo) with only several Tesla chargers for the whole country.

And Tesla makes a CHADEMO adapter for their cars.
http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/chademo-adapter

Chademo is worldwide standard as in same connector everywhere.

The CCS plugs are different between the USA and Europe, but the protocols are the same.

Dontcha just love multiple standards?
😛

THere aren’t really ‘two standards’ – as was mentioned they really are the same. The plain level 2 plug is different (type 1 or 2), but that’s going to be the case anyway. So just adding 2 DC pins in either type isn’t really changing anything that wouldn’t be different anyway.

CCS has the big advantage that it is cheap. You have to have most of the connector anyway for level 2 usage so its just a bit more for fast charging.

Chademo can’t compete on price since its an additional complicated connector. Cars which use it also have an ADDITIONAL type 1 or 2 connector which is the majority of a CCS connector anyway.

Chademo may be currently the most popular plug, but the wind is blowing in a different direction for reasons described.

I think, technically, the DC pins in the CCS are slightly different with US versus European. I’m not sure why. And I don’t know if it’s enough to prevent mating one with the other, not that it really matters anyway since there’s an ocean in between and the AC/comms portion of the ports are also different.

There was a graphic on a story here a long time ago that showed this subtle difference.

That’s pretty wrong data you got there. CHAdeMO is in fact worldwide with the exact same plug. No other protocol offers that.

The standard has been 125 amps (so-called “50kW”) for CHAdeMO since its inception, and the same with CCS. There are a tiny handful of 200 amps “100kW” capable cars and chargers (Kia Soul and Signet brand charger, both from South Korea).

The 350 amp “150kW” cars are not even announced, and it will be quite a struggle to get many 350 amp “350kW” chargers in the ground, particularly in high demand EV states with HUGE electric utility demand chargers. It will absolutely require battery buffering.

Right. Battery buffers will be common place with 150 kW DC fast chargers I believe.

CHADEMO is a worldwide plug because, for any non-DC charging, it requires a second plug… worldwide.

It’s not really genuine to claim it is superior in that it is worldwide, while ignoring it is inferior in that it can’t handle AC and DC charging anywhere in the world.

Yep, with CHAdeMO you have a different AC socket, with CCS you have a different AC half.

The suggestion is a farce anyways, since how many people will move their cars across the ocean? As long as the protocols are the same, AC half being different isn’t really that big a deal.

CHAdeMO not having AC is a far bigger disadvantage. IMO, J1772 should have been developed with DC capabilities (similar to what Tesla did). Yazaki was involved with both designs, so if they had the foresight to design a connector that could handle both, we wouldn’t be in this situation.

I agree. It’s silly to claim the two different plugs on opposite sides of the world are a hindrance for J1772/CCS.

I can think of many other technologies that are far more likely to see both sides of the world, yet continue to be limited to their respective wall outlet standards.

A car needing to operate on both sides of the ocean is far less of an issue.

I really wounder has anyone tried building a car that has both a CSS port and a Chamo port on it?

Pretty sure the Kia soul had both at the auto show. Too bad it still only had 90 miles charge.

Not so! The Soul is j1772 for AC and CHAdeMO for DC fast charging.
Similar to the LEAF.

We will do that in the future as an option with our JdeMO equipment.

CHAdeMO and CCS 1 or 2 (depending on market), side by side.

The JdeMO kit for the Tesla Roadster is already set up for the second set of control hardware, with all mounting bracket included.

If your company ever came out with a kit to add a CSS port to a Nissan Leaf that could be used along side the Chamo I would be very interested in buying it.

I also hope that your company comes out with a Chamo port that can be added along side the BMW i3’s port too.

i3 is having Chademo as standard in Japan

Could Renault return to the states? Since they have no current dealers, just sell EVs like Tesla?

GM needs to do this with next year’s Bolt.

It will be an “Option”.

Exactly Speculawyer. Maybe by this time next year there will actually be a number of 100 or 150 kW fast charge sites actually in the ground in the U.S.

The last California Energy Commission grant required “sub-out” for 125kW chargers.

That doesn’t mean that any actual hardware will be in the ground, but the mold has been set.