Renault Electric Program Director: Next-Generation Renault ZOE With Real-World Range Of 186 Miles

JAN 28 2015 BY MARK KANE 49

Nissan LEAF and Renault ZOE

Nissan LEAF and Renault ZOE

Interesting and potentially huge news is coming out of France in regards to the new, next-generation Renault ZOE and next-gen Nissan LEAF.

According to Les Echos, the new versions of both models will be ready in 2017 with double the range of today’s Renault-Nissan electric cars.

In the case of the next-gen ZOE, Beatrice Foucher, Director of Renault’s electric program, stated that the aim is 300 km (186 miles) of real-world range (and 400 km stated on NEDC).

The current generation of ZOE can go 210 km (130 miles) in NEDC testing.

Nissan apparently could equip the new LEAF with a 48-kWh battery pack, according to the report out of France.

Les Echos sees progress in battery technology, as well as in falling prices per kWh – from $1,000 in 2010 to $400 in 2014 and $180 in 2025 (forecast).

Source: Les Echos

Categories: Renault

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49 Comments on "Renault Electric Program Director: Next-Generation Renault ZOE With Real-World Range Of 186 Miles"

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So a 90.5% improvement. If this was done on the Leaf, and tested in the US, it would go from 84 miles to 160 miles.

Exactly. Still not the promised 200 mile Leaf.

If they made it smaller and more aero, they could actually make a 200 mile range car for less money, and with a smaller battery. But they figure people wouldn’t buy it.

They’d rather drive around in pickup trucks, and whine about not being able to afford a Tesla X.

Make it smaller! Are you kidding it is now already a super small thing. By the way Nissan Renault now have two super small cars with the Leaf and the Zoe but since the end of the Fluence they are left with no sedan sized ev car, so families are left kn the dust. Going smaller is insane and leave families even more out in the rain.

The LEAF is not a small car, it’s styled like one but it’s actually pretty spacious.

The LEAF is classified as mid-sized, while the Zoé is classified as compact. Parked side-by-side, the Zoé is noticeably smaller than the LEAF. (eg: 4 vs. 5 passenger seating)

The Zoe does have a middle rear seat belt, so technically it can carry five, in the same sense the Volt 2.0 can, if at least one of them is a child.

The Leaf is not small. I’d call it mid-sized just like the official classification. Definitely bigger all around than the Zoe.

What the Leaf could have is a lower drag coefficient. It is quite high at 0.28. This is huge for highway speed range. It should easily achieve 200 miles at city speeds with a 48kWh pack.

They need to reduce drag. That would not necessarily make it smaller. In fact it could be longer and lower, which would make it more aerodynamic and reduce the frontal area at the same time (drag = cd X frontal area).

Put another way, it could look more like Volt 2.0.

If the manufacturers truly want volume they have to start selling mid-size sedan and CUVs EVs in the USA.

“Small” is relative; in the US they’re pretty miniscule cars, I’d imagine. In Europe, they’re pretty typical small/mid-sized sedans.

Be careful with context … the stated Zoé increase is 300 km / 210 km or a 1.4x increase in range. Relative to a current generation LEAF (84 mile range), it would mean 115-120 miles on a. ~34 kWh battery.

The unknown: will just the battery chemistry be upgraded, or will the module configuration in the pack be modified?. To get the 48 kWh rumored in the article a combination of battery pack upgrades will be needed.

FYI: The LEAF was originally quoted as a 100 mile vehicle … which is possible under ideal conditions and controlled speed, but not practical for a typical owner in realworld conditions.

No, you read it too quickly.

210 is the current NEDC figure. They are talking about 300 real world, 400 NEDC. So it’s 400 / 210 = 90.4% increase in range.

Increasing range from 210 km to 300 km is a 43% improvement. Not 90-100%.

This is still a very nice improvement that makes an EV significantly more enjoyable and useful. Add more DC fast charging stations and EVs will be super attractive.

GSP

This is history in the making…I really hope it happens!!

Nissan/Renault has been hinting at this for quite a while. It would be wonderful if it comes to pass. Even more so if the 2017 actually ships early in 2016.

Of course, if this were Tesla 2017 would really mean 2019 – December 31, 2019.

It seems to me that this would be “huge news” only to those who have not been paying attention. Nissan has been talking about doubling the range of the Leaf in 2017 for a while now. Renault is basically the same company, so why wouldn’t they also double the range of their EV? All this does is provide one more reminder that Nissan-Renault is serious.

I like the fact that as 2017 approaches, the announced year isn’t changing. That implies to me that the next generation of batteries is well understood outside of the lab, and they have some real-world experience with them in some kind of test vehicle. Now they just have to ramp up production and work out any issues that appear along the way. And there’s no way that Nissan has exclusive rights to the technology. GM, Tesla, VW, BMW, and others will too.

The 2017 year seems to be sticking now. Previously I thought it was going to be 2015 following a 2014 release of the Infiniti LE.

I think the battery heat issue set them back ~2 years already.

I don’t see how this battery price projection is ‘huge’ news. In four years, 2010 – 2014, battery prices fell 60%- huge news! In the next ten years ‘Les Echos’ are projecting only a 55% reduction to $180/kWh. That’s less than half the pace of price reduction we have already been experiencing, and this just as economies of scale for car batteries should be ramping up.

A 55% reduction compared to today’s prices will be more than enough to cross the price and range treshold that makes adoption of EVs possible on a massive scale.

This is likely a lg battery in the renault. Nissan may want to use their own battery (nec partnership) which may be behind. My guess they are testing both.

No one knows where battery price drops stop, but I don’t think this $180/kwh in 2025 is a bad guestimate. As we get down to consumer electronics battery prices price declines will slow. 50kwh at that price is only $9000 definitely inexpensive enough.

Does anybody else hear that faint ringing in the air … sounds a bit like the death knell of the IC engine …

+100 I hear it.

NPNS! SBF!
Volt#671

Can the first generation have a battery upgrade… please…

Even if they made an upgraded replacement pack, it probably wouldn’t have the capacity of the new LEAF.

I am guessing there will be some geometry/packaging changes involved too. It is highly unlikely that the volumetric energy density will double from 2010 to 2017.

There has also been the talk of Nissan outsourcing the battery cells to LG, which would mean a totally new pack format.

“It is highly unlikely that the volumetric energy density will double from 2010 to 2017.”

Make that impossible. We may see it in ten years, if solid state batteries become a reality. Morse’s Law only applies to integrated circuits.

Even if there would be such higher density batteries available, they would very likely need some form of active thermal management, which obviously would make upgrades extreme expensive and simply uneconomical.

Nissan’s current solution to the heat issues was a change in chemistry, not an active thermal management system.

I am not sure if that will change with a switch to LG cells, but it seems they were determined to go without active management with their own battery development.

Having a chemistry that does not degrade, can quick charge, and doesn’t need active thermal management is really the holy grail. It just might be too good to be true.

That’s not necessarily true. It depends on the chemistry. I think Nissan has made a decision to avoid liquid thermal management due to cost, and work on the chemistry instead.

I think this is a long-term bet that they have made, because Ghosn wants to go down market as fast as possible, as he is targeting developing nations broadly, countries like India. In these countries, even the Tesla Model III will be a luxury car.

They could, but they won’t. It’s called planned obsolescence.

Renault said that the advantage of the mandatory battery leasing was to allow future battery upgrades, but that was a scam to rip off early adopters.

Renault is now saying that they will buy back the Zoe first generation cars from the costumers who want the new generation batteries, this means you will have to buy a new car if you want more range.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=pt-BR&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-services/automobile/0204107325852-les-renault-et-nissan-electriques-rouleront-deux-fois-plus-loin-en-2017-1086627.php&usg=ALkJrhjshCPpsZ3ZppVGmEjdSJp5YB_1ww

Yeah, you’re probably right.
The only chance for a battery upgrade is if the have an economic base of providing existing owner with a a replacement battery availability by law and they figure that it’s just simpler and much cheaper to provide one set of those that fit all their goods.
It’s tiny, but not impossible.
OR they find profitable to sell upgraded battery with a good profit and keep their retailler happy with somme after market incentive.
I guess then it’s possible.

Nissan has been testing a “double battery” in the leaf for around 6-9 months from recollection, does this just mean that they are going to put two packs in the 2nd gen or have the batteries energy density been advanced to achieve twice the range from the same size I wonder ?

Either way it’s great !

Managed to dig out one of the articles from last October about the 48kw battery Nissan was using !

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/24/nissan-tests-48-kwh-battery-leaf/

Hopefully they will do a compatible 20 to 40% better battery in the same form factor for the last model year of this LEAF… then a year later the new model… with a larger form factor of the new chemistry in the newer package for the 180 epa rated to 220 hypermilers mile range.

Can you see the dominos being put up right now. Then you will only have to wait for the first one to pull the trigger on the ~200-mile EV and all the rest will be out instantly too.

The only question is who will be first with the second gen EV? What is your bet?

My guess is Renault Zoe 2, then Nissan Leaf 2 and Mitsubishi CA-MiEV and finally the Chevy Bolt. Ford, Kia and Hyundai will be next. Tesla Model 3 will be the last, but the supercharging is very tempting and some people will wait. Mazda, Fiat and Honda will follow. Toyota will enter bankruptcy with hybrids and fuel-cells, and finally become a Chinese company.

That would be poetic justice!

You can buy a 2nd gen EV today from Tesla in the Model S. The 1st gen was the Roadster.

Of course, you need to pay a lot for it.

To the many an ev with less than 400 miles ev range without a rex is just irrelevant. The Leaf should therefore get 200 miles ev range and a rex. It should actually every get a rex before 200 miles of range. In the same time it should get a sedan trunk so that you can put stuff in there. By the way the Model S 60 KWh would also need a rex and even the 85 KWh could still have one as a valuable option.

You are a Rex.

Oh cool! You just gave me a name for my mythical Tesla P85. I am going name it “Irrelevant” Just like the comment you just posted.

Why would an REX be at all relevant when you can charge all over and quickly? Average daily driven distance is around 40miles. I have more range anxiety in my ICE, as gas is $8/gallon and charging an EV is free here.

Wonder if the Nissan “Alliance” is just keeping all these cool Renault EV’s out of the US on purpose. 🙁

Twizzy’s and Zoe’s would sell here…

Just checked today: zoes and leafs are selling awful in the Netherlands. Teslas are on top. You can only drive about 350 km max in this country till you hit the border, but let’s see it as a state like in the us. You can’t go on a holiday with a zoe. You can’t tow anything with a zoe. The only reason why leafs are selling so well in the us is the tax credit.

Now I’ve heard this myth that in Holland we can get a similar form of tax credit as well, but this is only for business owners. Yep, that’s exactly the people that are buying Teslas.

I think Renault just for some similar reason decided that your country does not really present a viable business case for selling zoes. Maybe because of the alliance the credits are being eaten by the leafs?

Reanualt, like all French auto companies, decided they can’t make it in the US market.

So they gave up or didn’t even try.

Zoe can charge all over Europe up to 43 kW from any outlet.

Because we have 400V 3 phase installed in our houses. And right now 43kW AC chargers are popping up along the highways all over Denmark. You can choose between normal supply of 50% wind energy or 100% waterfall energy from the Swedish rivers. All other EV cars can fast charge only from expensive DC chargers. Therefore the Zoe is unique!

Finland is exactly the same in regards to EV incentives; they’re only for companies. What private citizens get, is a lower (5%) car tax, however. Typically it’d be around 40% depending on CO2 emissions. I don’t get why it isn’t 0% for EV’s, Finland is such a backwards country.
Tesla is the most sold EV here as well, and Tesla doesn’t even sell them directly yet (they will in 2015), the base 60 kWh model is around €90k ($120k). We don’t really have that many EV’s officially on the market yet, I think it’s only limited to Leaf and Nissan e-NV200 van. Renault is launching Zoe here in 2016 🙁

Top new EV’s registered in 2014:
Tesla Model S 94
Nissan Leaf 77
Nissan e-NV200 20
Ford Focus EV 4
Volkswagen e-Up 4
Mitsubishi i-MiEV 2

I’m still wondering when we’ll see some fragmentation of product lines, e.g. Nissan sells a Leaf S with a 120 mile battery and an SV and SL with a 180 mile pack. Or maybe they bring the Zoe here with its current pack and then bump all trim levels of the Leaf to 180 miles.

Eventually, some manufacturer selling cars much cheaper than a Tesla is going to do something like this, and I think it will be extremely interesting to see how it plays out.

Nissan, Renault and other companies will have to come with some form of upgrade or replacement program, otherwise NO-ONE will buy a Zoe or Leaf anymore in 2016 (perhaps not even in 2015) anymore.

If you lease the battery, Renault will upgrade it free of charge, I believe. It also has a lifetime warranty.