Porsche’s Upcoming High-Powered Charger Will Work With Tesla, Mercedes-Benz, Others

OCT 6 2016 BY ERIC LOVEDAY 78

Porsche Mission E

Porsche Mission E

The Porsche Concept Study Mission E shows up as world premiere at the IAA 2015

The Porsche Concept Study Mission E shows up as world premiere at the IAA 2015

Porsche boss Oliver Blume revealed to Top Gear that the high-power charged being developed by Porsche will most definitely be compatible with electric cars from other automakers, including Tesla.

This high-powered charger is being developed specifically for the long-range Porsche Mission E (set to launch in the next few years), but as Blume states, Porsche has been in contact with numerous automakers on this charger program and the goal is to make this blazing fast charger compatible with other high kWh electric cars.

Quoting Blume:

“We are in contact with other manufacturers and suppliers around the world to build a fast-charging network. Everybody has the same need.”

“It sounds easy but getting the details agreed is hard. We already have the clear technical concept. It can even work with Teslas, with an adapter.”

Blume says Porsche is in talks with Mercedes-Benz especially:

“We are in talks with them.”

“But the next question is do we co-operate on building power stations?”

It sure would be swell if several automakers cooperated on the charging infrastructure side, but that seems unlikely.

Porsche says that the Mission E concept features an 800-volt battery system and is targeting a charge rate of that allows the 310-mile car to recharge to 80% in 15 minutes:

“The concept version was estimated at 310 miles, and it recharges using an integrated capacitive charging technology in the underbelly, with wireless charging capability, that can reach 80 percent of a full charge in 15 minutes.”

Source: Top Gear

Categories: Charging, Mercedes, Porsche, Tesla

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78 Comments on "Porsche’s Upcoming High-Powered Charger Will Work With Tesla, Mercedes-Benz, Others"

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In the US, the National Electric Code (safety rules) makes it much harder to deal with anything over 600 Volts. Joe Consumer (and his toddler) is not allowed to handle a cable carrying 800V. I’d like to know if Porsche thinks this new 800V charging mechanism is going to get deployed to the US, and if so how they are going to deal with this NEC problem.

The oldest ad trick in the book, Porsche will advertise the 800V then throttle it down to whatever spec regulators will allow.

The oldest ad trick in the world probably had more to do with the oldest profession in the world, which might in turn have to do with where one meaning of the word “trick” came from!

I didn’t dig up specific code of current revision, but as you may expect, code gets adopted to real life all the time:

“The NEC Correlating Committee reactivated the High Voltage Task Group for the 2014 NEC development process and provided a specific assignment to review the entire NEC and submit proposals that change the 600V threshold to 1,000V. The reason behind this global effort relates to some output circuits from renewable-energy sources often exceeding the 600V level. The problem is significant enough that the NEC Correlating Committee determined the need to consider a proposal increasing the long-standing 600V threshold to 1,000V Code-wide”

http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/2014-nec-outlook

This makes sense, from the rotation back to DC lines for long distances. My understanding of transmission engineering is limited, but where renewable sources have long runs and high power delivery, volts would be the way to pack more into the lines. “HVDC” example – http://www.energy.siemens.com/nl/en/power-transmission/grid-access-solutions/dc-technology.htm

Porsche may abandon 800V charging, and yet keep an on-board 800V power bus, just like modern EVs power at ~400v and can charge at 240v, etc. Not all will be lost if they still develop wattage similar to Tesla’s SC’s. Charging is just one virtue of being able to manage higher voltage.

Thank you z^10 for that great information! I’ll be adding a link to that in the DCFC page on my reference website.

In my Opinion , These Chargers Should have “ALL” been universally Compatible right from the very start ! , Just Like Gas pumps’ filler nozzles…There are No excuses for all this Confusion, except to prolong & delay the transition to Electric cars!

It course they should have been, but we live in the real world where it takes time to resolve conflicts and come to a consensus needed for a standard. They did it for level 2/240 volt, but because it was taking too much time for DCQC, Tesla blazed a path with their own standard. They eventually settled on two for fast charging, so there are three total, and Porsche’s would make four. As long as there are plenty of stations, adapters for using plugs, and “sharing”, it’s not that big a deal, nor a conspiracy.

EPRI and SAE are working on supporting 1000VDC charging in the US. They’re aware of the electrical code.

CHAdeMO has already announced 350 amp at up to 1000 volts for worldwide use, including the US.

Insulation capabilities and electronic control systems don’t remain at a stand still, so there is no reason obsolete legislation would remain unchangeable. I think 600 v limit is ridiculous with present technology and even more with newer one to come. Not 600 v not 800 v not even 1500 v but at least 6000 v should be the new limit for charging. We will need at least 1600 v or 3200 v to be able to megacharge a car at 1 MW or why not at 18 MW. This last rate would allow charging an 150 KWh battery in 30 seconds which is quicker than a gasoline fill up.

U can still fill up gas quicker. Like in the Formula 1 under 6 seconds :-))))))

For once the legislation should limit gas filling speed to a dropper speed. And 2 Gallons maximum of course, that would help gas cars. 🙂

How big of a tank?

Regardless, 18MW would probably still deliver more range per second! (ie, 10-20 miles/second, depending on the car and how it will be driven.)

I can’t believe 1MW is being seriously considered though, let alone 18!

I’d like to know if Porsche thinks this new 800V charging mechanism is going to get deployed to the US, and if so how they are going to deal with this NEC problem.”

The article mentions wireless charging. If this system is restricted to wireless charging, then there should be no problem with regulations which prevent an ordinary citizen from handling high-voltage equipment.

But exactly what are the restrictions? Do they specify that there must be a barrier preventing people from being within X number of feet of high voltage equipment? If it’s on the underside of the car, then obviously anyone sitting in the car while it was charging is gonna be pretty close.

But for once, I agree with zzzzzzzzz, regarding what he posted below. If the regulations need to be changed to allow high voltage fast charging of PEVs (Plug-in EVs), then those regulations will be changed. The EV revolution won’t be stopped by a fiddling U.S.-only restriction on high voltage equipment. There is too much momentum and too much capital investment in PEVs to allow something like that to bring advancement of the tech to a screeching halt.

“with an adapter.”
Everything can work with an adapter as long as charger uses open standard. Guess what will be the cost, weight and practical usability of 350 kW 800 V adapter 😉

Tesla proprietary charging network is gradually becoming a ghetto instead of walled garden, as everybody else is working on open standards for common good.

That’s how most Tesla owners like it, exclusive and available for their use. Everybody else has been working on a common standard and you see the results, a myriad of competing standards. Don’t get me started on the common good argument…

That’s about it in a nutshell.

On this one, Tesla wasn’t fostering “exclusivity”. They accurately predicted how reluctant, if not hostile, other manufactures were going to be toward supporting “common good”.

That’s how I see it, too. If Supercharging is a “walled garden”, it’s certainly not what Tesla intended. That’s just how it has wound up.

Sooner or later, there will be an actual PEV (Plug-in EV) charging standard, rather than the competing formats we have today. That is as inevitable as gas stations conforming to a standard nozzle on the gas pump hose… which was not standardized back in the day when gas stations were a New Thing.

http://www.terapeak.com/worth/huge-lot-9-vintage-gas-pump-station-or-pump-nozzles-handle-102-402-ebw-brass/140976437803/

However, the PEV charging standard which will inevitably arise may be for wireless charging… and not a plug at all.

I must say, I’m still amazed at the criticism of Tesla (and Tesla owners) for recognizing a truly vital need early on and acting on it.
This compared to the appalling foot dragging on the part of the rest of the auto industry.
We are still hearing that GM has no interest in contributing to any part of the charging infrastructure despite now, at last, having a very functional EV.

So Tesla produces and this somehow benefits Tesla owners. Yeah, scurrilous indeed.

(Disclosure: Not a Tesla owner – yet)

Apart from China and Tesla who are “we are deploying it” every body else is “we are working on it”.

No idea why You thing everybody but China and Tesla gets it….

No. Really. Tell us.

The word “ghetto” suggest economic isolation(as well as other types). To suggest that for Tesla’s quickly expanding charger network, displays an inherent bias on your part, not remotely based on current evidence.?

LOL, fool cell and serial anti-Tesla troll zzzzzz is now fantasizing that Porsche can knock off Tesla’s huge lead in compelling BEVs!

Good luck with that, all the laggard German OEMs are playing from way behind as their endless series of announcements and press-briefings show.

In any case, this “Tesla Effect” has forced these laggards to stop their plans of going as slow as possible towards electrification and sustainable transport to protect their ICE profits and stranded assets.

And no, the grossly inefficient Hydrogen that keeps fool cell owners as slaves to Big Oil boondoggle you support so much is not going to work either,

Another Euro point of view

Why this need to be so aggressive in your comments all the time, I would like to buy a Tesla but can’t as each time I am about to order your comments comes in my mind and I can’t help to think that if I ever own a Tesla I might become someone like you.

I didn’t find that aggressive but rather an humor filled description and a quiet objective point of view.

Another Euro point of view

I know, this is why I have a dog, then I don’t need to do the barking myself.

Nice (-:

Euro — The Mods have decided that they prefer Lord of the Flies to banning trolls. That only leaves troll bashing as the only option to endless trolling.

If you don’t like the obvious and predictable results of allowing a bunch of Reddit “violentcruz” style clowns run loose, and the obvious consequences, please feel free to let the mods know what brilliant solution you have for the issue.

Meanwhile, stop the false narrative that bashing down the lies of “voilentcruz” types with truth delivered with a sledgehammer, is somehow equivalent to the lying trolls themselves.

What brand of car do YOU drive? Because I’m absolutely certain I can find much worse stuff being posted on the internet than anything posted here against anti-Tesla trolls. Will you sell your car when I post examples?

I know from the ‘Drive Electric’ events that there are several ‘normal’ Tesla owners. There are several morons, superdopes, and clowns who comment here. Ignore them.
If you like the car, and are satisfied with the price, service options, and warranty, then buy one.

So Porsche must have been the “European manufacturer” that Elon said they were in talks with about charging networks.

Not really Porsche but their owner VW. They are not expanding the charging infrastructure out of the kindness of their hearts, they have to as determined by court due to the diesel debacle.

I thought Tesla specifically said the company was “not German”. That would rule out Porsche.

I thought it might have been Volvo.

Brian and ffbj, that’s correct about the automaker not being German. However the discussion by Porsche here referred to are only having to do with the feasibility of an adapter (likely CCS to Tesla) not the actual use of the Supercharger network by an automaker.

Maybe it’s Rimac? They’ll only do 8 cars so it’s not like it’s going to make the superchargers crowded.

Could be Aston Martin.

Nah, I don’t think they really need to charge their 12 volt battery.
The efficiency gain would be unmeasureble.

Since ford used to own AM, now all AM’s look like Fords.

I don’t understand your 12 volt battery reference.

It was a joke. The only battery they have is the 12V one 🙂

Yep, what we really need is yet another charging standard!

It’s very likely to be a new version of CCS that supports 800V. Not surprising that Mercedes, VW, and others will support it. Version 1 supported up to 100kW (400V), version 2? up to 150kW (400V, 350A), and version 3? up to 300kW (800V). https://chargedevs.com/newswire/porsche-foresees-800-volt-dc-charging/

“version 2? up to 150kW (400V, 350A)”

up to 400 V and up to 350 A only gives up to 140 kW.

400 * 350 A = 140 kW.

lol, 140 kW is up to 150 kW. Especially if you make marketing 😀

In a way, we do. We need the next big standard, but it needs to leap-frog the current power levels. That’s what this one does.

I sincerely hope that the automakers can come together and create a single 250+kW standard. And that includes Tesla, BTW. At this point, the charging time argument becomes moot. You can push 60kWh in 15 minutes. That will take a car >200 miles. and if we really got agreement on a standard, we could see a true network rolled out supporting all EVs.

Ah, to dream.

Ah…to sleep…perhaps to dream. A universal charging standard, my kingdom, for a universal charging standard.

“For in that sleep of death what” nightmares may come, when we shuffle on this 800 volt coil? 150kw charging, “aye, there’s the rub”. Porsche will have to “bear the scorn” of setting amps too low, and never reaching 200 EPA miles of charge, in 15 minutes.

+10!

Great thread, guys!

True, EV developement will be acordingly to Moore’s law.
So if they don’t want to start again in 5 years from now, the next lvl superchargers should put out at least 0,5 MW.

“recharge to 80% in 15 minutes”

Finally, an EV that can beat SparkEV. Unfortunately, it’s vaporware for next few years, long after SparkEV is gone. But all manufacturers should be talking about charging speed (are you listening, Nissan the turtle?)

In absolute terms, Tesla blows the Spark EV out of the water. Model S/X charge at up to 135kW. What is the Spark, 50kW?

Looking at time to 80% is not a valid comparison when the battery sizes are so different. Besides, that’s not how they’ll be used in the real world. People will drive their cars to get to their destination, not just 180% of their car’s range. On a long trip, a Spark will spend far more time charging than a Tesla.

‘135 kw charging’.

I remember seeing graphs of 85 kwh batteries charging, andthe graph always started at 110 kw. So it is definitelynot all the time.

Of course, I doubt the ’50kw’ charger is really a full 50 kw due to the ricketty way it was installed in Ithaca, the only non-tesla fast charger near me period, as I’ve explained previously.

If this is the best this half of NYS can do, I’m not holding my breath for a 350kw charger. I still haven’t heard anything about who is going to pay for this party.

Hey Brian, have you heard anything about the supposedly in effect $2000 NYS tax credit for new EV’s?

Yeah, I thought I heard that Tesla could support up to 135kW, but maybe that’s not true in practice. Also true that Tesla will taper much faster than Spark EV. But how long will it take until the Tesla tapers down to the level of the Spark EV (50kW)? By then it probably will have taken more kWh than Spark EV can hold in total. Which is my point – in absolute terms, Tesla blows everyone else away.

I have heard nothing new aobut the tax credit. I’m not in the market for a new EV for another couple of years, so I haven’t been paying close attention.

Brian,

It depends on which version of Tesla battery is being charged, but it looks like it will taper down to 50 kW somewhere between around 65% to 85% charged based on this data:

Tesla keeps ratcheting up charge rates, which appear to be artificially software limited at this point, not charger or battery limited. Just like they overnight sped up how fast the 90D charges one night last summer.

They actually pushed past 110kw to 120kw about 3 years ago:

http://insideevs.com/tesla-cranks-superchargers-up-past-120-kw/

Now the P100D is rated at a max of 150kW charging rate, and Tesla has quietly been moving from 135kW chargers to 145kW chargers.

But they seem to have decided for now to use this larger capacity to keep the P100D charging at 110-120 kW until well past 50%, instead of going for full 135kW:

But this may change some winter night and owners may wake up to faster charging, since the charge rate appears to be software limited.

Finally, to be clear, Porsche’s proposed chargers will taper off too, and won’t charge every car at full rate either.

Am I missing something? What is Mercedes experience with chargers and EVs. Almost nothing

They are researching quick charging for the 12 volt battery, just like Aston Martin.

The Germans are reinventing the wheel… Again…

Yes… I don’t know if this is what you meant but… why do we need faster charging than 150kW? For the vast majority of car users, 50kW is ample. Actually for the *vast* majority of car users, *3*kW would be ample given that the average daily car milage is not even 30 miles – 4 hours of charging at 3kW (over-night) would be easily enough to replace those 30 miles on any electric car.

But for those who do regular long trips, 150kW would be enough and without the need to over-engineer everything to handle 800V. It’s just plain silly.

All these EV owners waiting for 200 mile+ range EVs to come out before taking the plunge will find, the next time they come to buy one, that they simply don’t need that much range and will end up buying EVs with smaller battery packs and saving their money.

Relax everyone. This isn’t a new standard, it’s bumping up the capacity of CCS while retaining backwards compatibility.

Yes, this. Hat tip to you.

Then why aren’t they doing this through any official standards entity (SAE), instead of keeping it just between this group of car makers?

That seems to be exactly the opposite of sticking to standards. Am I missing something here?

The SAE _is_ exactly a “group of car makers” (-:
Actually, CCS isn’t an SAE standard, but an open one by CharIn, that uses additional IEC/ISO standards (e.g. for the plugs).

http://www.charinev.org/about-us/mission/

CCS is an IEC standard (it is System B… CHAdeMO is System A)

CCS – Combo 1 is indeed an SAE standard. This uses an entirely different plug than Combo 2. Combo 1 is a regional standard used almost entirely within USA / Canada.

CCS – Combo 2 is an EU standard (as is CHAdeMO, also). This uses an entirely different plug than Combo 1. Combo 2 is a regional standard used largely in EU, but also will likely be used throughout the world where three phase power is widespread,

GB/T is the official standard of China, and is IEC System C.

Tesla Supercharger is a private network, and not an official standard by any other venue or government. It uses different plugs between the North American / Japan markets, and the rest of the world where three phase power is prevalent.

The “CharIn” group is VERY new, less than a year old. They were formed to promote CCS… they didn’t found it, design it, or even make it an official government standard in EU. All those things happened prior to CharIn.

Isn’t the current issue on the battery (or the state of it)? Even with the current DCFC, I usually don’t get the full capacity of 50 KW. Never mind what the EVSE can push out, there is no use if the car limit the flow.

Why are they developing this privately between just these companies, instead of doing it openly through an open standard, like SAE? Tesla had a valid reason to go their own, since they were already building validation prototypes and ramping up production while the standards were still being developed and had yet to be finalized. The standards were too little, too late for the release of the Model S and the Supercharger, so they had no choice but to move forward on their own to avoid delaying production. But this story says that they are still a few years out from production. They should be working openly with ALL the members of a standards organization like SAE. This is NOT a step forward to standardizing across ALL car makers. This is the exact opposite. This is further fractioning the charging future by working outside the recognized standards organizations. They are choosing just a subset of car makers who they want to work with. And unlike Tesla, they don’t have a compelling reason like getting to market immediately. Somebody please explain why a charger developed by a subset of all car makers, without going through the established standards organizations, isn’t anything more… Read more »

As long as they do systems that are existing ev friendly, like allowing 400 V 135 KW charging, as well as new capabilities, 800 V 300 KW, it is ok if the new capability is not standard. Although from what I understood the 400 V was going to be pushed further towards 350 KW before even talking of doubling the voltage.

Both the CHAdeMO Association and CCS promoters have proposed “350kW” standards. The CCS one is clouded in secrecy as to exactly what will be the end result, but the CHAdeMO Association has officially identified theirs as:

1) 350 amps
2) 1000 volt max
3) Same plug design (reverse compatible)

You can safely assume that the CCS that Porsche will use for 800 volt charging will be 400 amps (320kW max).

Tesla Superchargers already supply 365-370 amps, which has been reported as “145kW”, but is still restricted to 120kW in vehicles.

Any Tesla in the future could be configured for 800 volt charging at the present 365-370 amp power level for about 300kW max. I can’t imagine Tesla not going for a higher amperage through either two plugs on the car, or some other method for higher “on paper” charge rates.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but CCS was developed by a consortium of 7 or 8 auto makers. It wasn’t an “open standard” development like SAE. Look at the way that DVD and Blu-ray standards were developed. Each was a case of a few large industry leaders getting together and agreeing on a format, which became the standard because others in the industry decided to go along with it. There was some opposition to Blu-ray; there was a competing HD-DVD format. But ultimately the industry avoided a VHS vs. BetaMAX “war” (because the porn video industry threw in with the Blu-ray format! No, seriously, that’s what tipped the scale.) While it might be nice if auto makers went through the process of open charging standard development, I think history shows that would take much longer than just a few industry leaders deciding on a format, and leaving the rest of the industry to either go along with that, or not. The way I see it, the tech is changing so rapidly, in increasing charging current and in adopting wireless charging format, that I doubt any standard created in the next few years will last for long. When charging improves to… Read more »

No new standard, just confirmation that CCS is the way to go, the faster the better. Now if the Japanese swallow their pride and give up further chademo development in favor of 150 kW CCS, the standards issue will be resolved. In the long run, fast inductive charging would be the optimal solution.

For the moment the fastest charging that exists is the Protera bus system at 1400 KW. It is using a conductive system not inductive. The fastest conductive is planned at “only” 200 KW in the future.

Well, if passenger vehicle PEVs (Plug-in EVs) had a battery pack as large as the one in those buses, then perhaps they could be charged at 1400 kW, too.

Perhaps someday ordinary PEV cars and light trucks will be able to charge at 1400 kw, but it won’t be because they have a gigantic, bus-sized battery pack. It will be because battery makers will have figured out how to mass produce batteries that can charge rapidly without overheating.

Correction:

The fastest inductive charging is planned at “only” 200 KW in the future.

CHAdeMO has “150kW” charge specifications, as well as 350kW. CHAdeMO specification is: 50kW = 500 volts max * 125 amps max (really 62.5kW capable) 100kW = 500 volts max * 200 amps (max initial design) 150kW = 500 volts max * 350 amps (2017 launch, really 175kW capable) 350kW = 1000 volts max *350 amps = (proposed summer 2016) ************** Typical EV max battery voltage is: 354 volts (84 cells in series) – Mercedes B-Class ED, Tesla 60-70-75kWh cars 386 volts (92 cells in series) – RAV4 EV 395-403 volts (96 cells in series) – almost every other car – LEAF, Kia Soul EV, all 85-90kWh Tesla, BMW i3, etc. 416 volts (99 cells in series) – Tesla Roadster ********** CHAdeMO is: 1) 62.5kW capable today (up to about 50kW typical in virtually all cars. 2) 100kW design today (only the Kia Soul EV can use that power today, at about 75kW max) 3) 150kW in the year 2017. They picked that number to correspond with the CCS nomenclature, but in reality it is 350 amps * 500 volt capable = 175kW. We don’t even know what the max amperage of CCS will be yet, but I suspect 300-400 amps.… Read more »
J1772 seems to be the standard every car can use. 240v@30a (7.7kw) will charge the 60kw battery pack in about 8 hours. 200kw gets you about 200mi, so for a fair majority of users they will never need a DCFC as they will never exhaust their battery, and will top it up over night. Taking Tesla aside (and they do offer to let other manufacturers use their SC for a price), the standard does seem to be polarising towards CCS. Unlike the Chademo, it is a single plug socket, so in theory a cheaper solution. While there is plenty of space in a car for both J1772 and Chademo, manufacturers usually go for the simplest, cheapest solution. Nissan, et all should just bite the bullet and get on board (I drive a Leaf, but think CCS makes better sense than Chademo). So far the evidence is Tesla puts in their chargers and takes control of the whole EV ecosystem. Other manufacturers may place chargers into their dealerships, but seem less than eager to deploy generally. So far, Porsche has very limited real world EV credentials (if any?), so it is hard to imagine this being a reality. In any case,… Read more »

“It sounds easy but getting the details agreed is hard.”

Exactly, which is why Tesla, back in 2011, had to go it alone. Now, waaay after the fact, the industry is trying to catch up, and even improve.

*sigh*