Porsche Details Its Plans For Non-Discriminatory Ultra-Fast Charging

AUG 29 2018 BY VANJA KLJAIC 49

Porsche is actively pursuing the future of electromobility and the challenges that await

Porsche is one of those legacy companies that is pursuing electrification with more zeal than others. With so much emphasis put on the Taycan lately, the company’s other moves in the same direction are kept mostly unnoticed. However, for Porsche, making the transition from combustion engines to electric power will undoubtedly require bringing their customers accustomed to electric propulsion. After all, Porsche is a company most known for their high-performance, petrol powered machines. That means a well-thought of and all-encompassing solution including both the vehicles and infrastructure will be needed.

Consequently, bringing the ease of use to their electric car customers is seemingly as important as the vehicles themselves. The currently developing fast-charging network and easy-to-use charging solutions are key goals for the German car company. The company even wants to tackle the lack of standard in charging solutions. To some, that might mean that Porsche wants to deal away with the same mistakes the smartphone industry made over a decade ago, when all the different charging ports, connectors, and technology was employed.

So we can only sell electric cars if we give customers the security of knowing that there is a viable charging network available. Porsche is therefore forging ahead and actively pushing the expansion of the charging infrastructure itself.

All of these issues concerning an active pursuit of electromobility, ideas were the journey is going and where challenges await is discussed in an interview with Otmar Bitsche, Director of Development Electrics, Electronics, Electromobility at Porsche. He is joined Michael Kiefer, Director of High-Voltage Systems at Porsche Engineering.

You can find the full interview right below.

Carmakers never bothered with the issue of fuel supply for combustion engines; they just left it up to the oil companies. Why has Porsche Engineering decided to develop its own charging park for electric cars?

Michael Kiefer (M.K.)— With the transition from combustion engines to electric drive units, I have to bring my customers along on a journey into the new electric world. With our brand, 100 percent of our customers are accustomed to combustion engines. So I’m confronted with a chicken-and-egg question. No charging network, no electric vehicles. And if there are no electric vehicles, no one will invest in a charging network. So we can only sell electric cars if we give customers the security of knowing that there is a viable charging network available. Porsche is therefore forging ahead and actively pushing the expansion of the charging infrastructure itself.

How are you doing that?

M.K.— For one thing, we are providing the market with an efficient solution, while at the same time the Volkswagen Group is participating in the “Ionity” joint venture for the expansion of a fast-charging network along the European highways. Once there are enough electric vehicles on the road, investors will undoubtedly jump on the bandwagon with charging stations and make a business case out of it with which they can make money. But to make this business model possible, we need a burst of initiative like our own efforts to make the overall concept viable in the first place.

How important is a user-friendly charging system?

Otmar Bitsche (O.B.)— Very important. The current system with complicated payment modalities and extremely variable energy prices is a real barrier to the acceptance of electromobility M.K.— Someone who wants to drive from Munich to Hamburg in an electric vehicle today needs multiple cards with which they have to authenticate themselves at the charging stations. Porsche eliminates this authentication rigmarole for customers by establishing contracts with all of the charging station operators, so the customer only needs one charging card that is accepted everywhere. And they can also count on a guaranteed electricity price that applies throughout the entire country. Customers of the Porsche charging service ultimately receive just one transparent bill from Porsche.

What distinguishes the charging park from Porsche Engineering from other charging station concepts?

M.K.— We have approached the charging park issue from the perspective of the customers who have to operate the charging stations. But also from the perspective of the operators who have to build these parks. For both, the market has few optimal solutions to offer. Their use is often complex or there are difficulties with the maintenance, servicing or diagnosis capabilities for such parks. So we have invested a great deal of effort in the issue of user-friendliness. Our charging stations even look different than the predominant ones seen today. They aid the customer through a design that guides the cable cleanly. We’ve also designed the overall system for the lowest possible power loss. That pay-off in terms of operating costs and the potential operator of the park stands to save a lot of money.

Can the Porsche charging park be built in any location?

M.K.— We have two different variants, the charging park and the ChargeBox. The park is designed for locations with more available space in which a very high volume of charges is to be expected, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. With a small compact station, however, a charging park is possible in the city as well, for example in a residential area. For all areas with extreme space constraints, there is our second variant, the ChargeBox with an integrate battery. It can be connected to the normal low-voltage grid and enables fast charging in spite of its compact dimensions.

Is fast charging always the goal for Porsche?

M.K.— Yes. Our power range starts at about 150 kilowatts today and extends up to 350 kilowatts. In a later phase of development, it could be even more than that. We believe that everything that will be installed in the future will play out in this power range. In the public space, no one wants to have long-term parkers at the charging stations because charging takes so long. Low charging capacity is really only acceptable for charging at home.

The Porsche charging stations enable direct current fast charging with 800 volts. Can this be used by all electric cars currently on the market? What prerequisites do they have to fulfill for fast charging?

O.B.— Most electric cars can be charged with 50 kilowatts today, but not more. M.K.— So future charging points will have to be free of discrimination. What that means is that all fast-charging stations, even if they offer 350 kilowatts, will have to be able to charge all electric cars on the market

Is inductive charging part of your future plans?

O.B.— On the vehicle side, absolutely. We plan to offer inductive charging later with the Mission E as well. But that does not allow fast charging. However, with this technology a vehicle can be charged in one’s own garage overnight with little complication. The dilemma with inductive charging is simply that there is not yet a binding standard in place. That is the objective of a joint research project with other manufacturers. M.K.— The lack of a standard is currently standing in the way of public charging spots as well. Today there would have to be a dedicated induction charging spot for each manufacturer, and that is an entirely unattractive model for the operators of parking garages. O.B.— With standardization it’s not just about the transmission of power; all the safety and communication pathways have to be standardized as well. Foreign object recognition, living object recognition, metal object recognition, the entire communication apparatus and even the positioning of the car all have to be standardized.

When will this standard emerge?

O.B.— With all the bells and whistles I think not before 2020. Perhaps we’ll manage to standardize power transmission by mid-2018.

What type of electric motor is a possibility for Porsche sports cars—asynchronous, synchronous or permanent magnet motors—and why?

O.B.— Permanent magnet synchronous motors are our choice. That is primarily due to three reasons. First: impressive power-to-weight ratio, i.e. a low weight with high output, because the excitation is provided by the permanent magnets. Second: very high torque. Third: sustained high performance is possible.

Is Porsche committed to the dual motor concept— with one motor on each of the axles?

O.B.— At the moment we are deliberately focusing on all-wheel technology. But other concepts are possible as well.

Currently high-voltage batteries using the latest lithium-ion technology are the gold standard. They offer an energy density of currently about 180 watt hours per kilogram. Are there battery concepts for the future that envision a significantly higher energy density?

O.B.— We expect an increase in energy content of roughly five percent per year. There’s a bit of hype surrounding the solid-state electrolyte technology at the moment. We see major technical challenges there, but we’re watching it very closely. The lithium-ion technology definitely has a lot more potential through ceramic separators, through silicon dioxide, through electrolytes, etc.

Does fast charging damage the battery?

O.B.— Not when it’s done properly. However, it’s not possible to get a 100 % charge with fast charging. As the charge level rises, the power has to be cut back. Altogether, we can charge for 400 kilometers in as little as 20 minutes without the battery suffering. That makes the charging experience very pleasant for the driver, because the vehicle controls the charging completely automatically. M.K.— Whether on the vehicle or infrastructure side, we will offer the users of our systems a fast, flexible and efficient solution.

Source: Porsche

Categories: Charging, Porsche

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49 Comments on "Porsche Details Its Plans For Non-Discriminatory Ultra-Fast Charging"

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Brian D

400 km in 20 minutes, is about 248 miles in 20 minutes. Clearly better than any technology we have today. It should also allow a road trip where you stop for 20 minutes every 3 hours of travel. This is pretty good. While we occasionally push 4-5 hours between stops on long trips, I can ‘deal’ with stopping every 3 instead. To be efficient, will need to eat 4 or 5 light meals per travel day coinciding with the 20 minutes stops, instead of the usual 3 large meals.

Quebec 100% EV

248 miles in 20 minutes is similar to what model 3 LR offers already today. Basically one 25 minute stop per 3 hours of highway travel. Porsche slightly better but not a huge difference. I prefer model 3 LR since the supercharger network in North-America is already mature, whereas the Porsche and Electrify America networks will take quite a few years to fully build out to the point where Tesla is today with their network (and it’s constantly growing).

Seven Electrics

Superchargers do not operate at 750 mph.

jelloslug

How would you even know how fast a supercharger chargers at…

Quebec 100% EV

Never said that.
I said one 25 minute stop per 3 hours of highway driving (at highway speed limit). You arrive at the SC at 10% SOC and you can achieve 495 mph supercharging (795kph) at 117kw until at least 50% SOC with model 3 LR.

Brian

From your numbers, you get 165 miles in 20 minutes on a model 3 LR. To get 248 miles, you would need to charge for 30 minutes. To me that is similar, but to those who feel the need to do a cannonball run, it’s not.

jamcl3

And the Total Addressable Market for “Cannonball Run” drivers is what % of the market?

3laine

Source for the Model 3 being close to 248 miles in 20 minutes?

I mean, I bet the “400km” is WLTP or NEDC and not real-life numbers, but I haven’t seen anything anywhere close to 248 miles in 20 mins for the Model 3. I looked yesterday and found 125 miles in 15 mins or so.

Tech01x

248 miles in 20 minutes is 744 mph. But that’s NEDC, so its roughly 520 mph EPA. 125 EPA miles in 15 minutes is 500 mph. Then the two are almost the same.

Quebec 100% EV

Tesla advertises 170 miles in 20 minutes with the model 3 LR, but in reality people have been reporting well over 200 miles in 20 minutes, especially when arriving at the SC with 10% SOC you can achieve 495mph (795kph) supercharging at 118kw until at least 50% SOC.

Will

It’s 170 miles for 20 min on Model 3

Quebec 100% EV

That’s the bare minimum that was advertised by Tesla in order not to cannabalize model S sales. In reality people have been reporting well over 200 miles in 20 minutes, especially when arriving at the SC with 10% SOC you can achieve 495mph (795kph) supercharging at 118kw until at least 50% SOC with model 3 LR.

Tech01x

The Model 3 LR today can charge at 115kW for more than 20 minutes. At 4.08 miles per kW, that’s 470 EPA miles, or 756 km. Then convert to NEDC to match against the Porsche, and that’s about 672 mph, or 1081 km/h. That ranks pretty close to the 744 mph or 1,198 km/h that Porsche is talking about. A huge portion of this is the efficiency of the vehicle, not just the charging rate itself.

Celestar

One needs to consider highway speeds. Porsche assumes a laid back highway speed of around 80 to 90 mph for their “400 km in 20 minutes” figure. The Model 3 is nowhere near 6.5 km per kWh there.

Kbm3

Show proof.

dathomir

Agreed, good stuff coming from Porsche!

jamcl3

Six years late, but hopefully they are as serious as they try to sound. No mention of costs, although that has never really been Porsche’s focus. But cost will presumably be a focus for the parent company VW?

Some have argued that charging networks for highway travel will never make money, and I tend to agree this is a risk. Tesla is perhaps treating the cost of the SuperCharger network as an advertising expense, and they seem to have a lower cost solution. So perhaps Porsche/VW will have to compete in this area at least.

Good luck to them all. There is so much innovation coming that I would not be surprised if every single charging connector in use today is gone and updated by the time the kids are my age. Smaller cheaper better faster cleaner safer etc.

F150 Brian

Six years late? Seriously?
Global market share of EVs of new sales is less than 5%.
Global fleet share of EVs is less than 1%.
The time is in the near future, not in the past.

Welcome Porsche to the right side of the future!

Seven Electrics

Yes, they’ve wisely avoided losing billions of dollars in an attempt to boil the ocean six years early.

Get Real

LMAO, they and all the German luxuxry/sport OEMs have been forced to compete with Tesla’s superior technology because Tesla has done what no other American auto maker has by competing and winning against these same Germans.

Meanwhile you continue to try and perpetuate the Seeking Shorters lie that Tesla has “lost billions” when in fact they have WISELY invested that money into capacity so that they now have many times the capacity to build compelling and high margin EVS then the laggard, legacy LICE makers and the EV score card reflects this.

Then there is your own personal lie that you own Tesla cars!

jamcl3

Yeah, I bought my present EV seven years ago, although to be fair to BMW, we did lease one of theirs nine years ago. So yes, six years since the modern era of EVs, and Porsche is finally bringing a battery-only EV to the US. Did I get something wrong? My neighbor has a plug-in hybrid Porsche, but I think it has less than 20 miles of EV range. Doesn’t really count as an EV in my book.

Yes I agree, welcome Porsche. Better late than never.

antrik

In the segment the Taycan will be in, Tesla had a compelling, and profitable, offering in 2012. So yes, Porsche is six years late by now. (Closer to eight by the time the Taycan actually hits the roads.)

Their entry still seems more convincing than most other legacy makers, though 🙂

eject

What might be unclear from the excerpt of the interview: This is about Porsche manufacturing charging products not only for themselves but to sell to third parties.

jelloslug

In the end, I see this working out about as well as the BMW CCS units that were supposed to be cheap and readily available when the i3 first came out.

mzs112000

Well, there are now Bosch CCS units that only cost $9,000, which is expensive for most people, but cheap for a public DCFC install…
Those Bosch ones can use 480v or 240v and have maximum output power of 24kW.
Now, in order to install one, in a residential setting, you would need an additional 200A service coming to your house. Also you neigbors wont be happy when their lights dim because you plugged in your car.

But for urban dwellers with low-range EV and no on-site charging, it could work. Although, an apartment complex would be better off just installing level 2 chargers. Because the same 200A service panel that supplies 1 DCFC could easily supply 5 level 2 32A units instead.
Now, ideally, they would install enough service for 20 EVSE’s and then add a solar array for it… Now half of the people in that complex can use an EV…

jelloslug

The BMW units were supposed to be cheap for L3 units also ($5000 or so) and the few I did run across in the wild were very problematic and only could deliver 25 kw.

Bill Howland
That’s overstating the case…. The Bosch 25 kw charging units will run off a lightly loaded 200 ampere service no problem. Although the input is roughly 27 kva, its an analogous situation to one Tesla “S” owner I know with dual chargers that could charge at a 19.2 kw rate with a 150 ampere service. 200 amperes allows far more headroom. As most ev’ers have half a brain at least, there is no law saying they can’t shut off the hot tub heater while charging the car. However both utilities in my area allow 400 ampere residential services, although I can think of only one home in ALL of Western NY that actually has one. The vast majority of the ‘Mansions’ have 300 ampere services. The 400 ampere service could support 2 Bosch fast chargers – the unit is voltage dependent on the input, and a higher voltage will greatly reduce its actual current draw. The other factoid is many of the dealerships throttle the fast charger. The only BOSCH in this area is limited by the dealership to 18 kw, presumably to keep demand (commercial) charges to what is deemed reasonable for them. As far as having the lights… Read more »
(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

“will have to be able to charge all electric cars on the market”

So how are you going to handle Chademo interfaces with the CCS?
Remember, the CCS1 & 2 standards DO NOT allow adapters.

eject

They will sell their cars and the chargers with Chademo in Japan and GB/t in China.

bro1999

I bet they really meant “will be able to charge all *CCS* electric cars on the market”.

eject

No they don’t. The actual magazine article makes this quite clear.
https://www.porsche.com/germany/aboutporsche/christophorusmagazine/archive/385/

eject

Wrong link somehow. It is on page 50 and 51 where they mention that they will offer Chademo and GB/T
https://www.porscheengineering.com/filestore/download/peg/en/magazine-2018-01/default/62500222-4a0f-11e8-bbc5-0019999cd470/Download-Magazine.pdf

jamcl3

Nice link. In one place they say they could support Chademo, in the other place they say they will support it, but later. Like “the check is in the mail” I suppose…

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

You’re most likely correct but eject dude below thinks otherwise. I can’t read that link so……..

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

“it is also possible to implement charging
standards such as CHAdeMO or GB/T, enabling
service to other vehicles even in regions as far afield
as Japan and China.”

Sounds more like the deployed charging station can be either CCS or Chad or GB/T but not both.

Thanks for the pdf post though!

eject

Localisations for the different markets. Chargers for Japan will be Chademo and GB/t for China.

Bill Howland
This is all well and good, but a few days ago I stopped at my local PORSCHE dealership to see how they are progressing on their dual – 350 kw charging facilities at every dealership plan. No sign of that OVERGROWN APOSTROPHE dispenser as of yet, and the dealership is so extensively landscaped and the current meager underground power system (208) is so entrenched with 3 other dealerships in close proximity, that it will be a real construction job to bring in the amount of presumably 480 volts that they will need. The particular utility does not even offer 208 at these power levels so just upping the current facilities straight-forwardly is out of the question. The area path taken will need to be re-landscaped after the construction is done. I had THOUGHT they had 2 level 2 docking stations (those SUPER HUGE oval things that are like GE Wattstations, just 4 times the volume), but I wanted to confirm that, since the very small #14 AWG cords coming from the units made me think the output of them can’t be much. To my great surprise they have digital displays where you can change the output from a full 100%… Read more »
(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

I don’t consider any of those EVSE’s at stealerships of any use.
Many park their SUV’s in there or keep whatever plugin car plugged into it not charging then close the gates after hours.

Lou Grinzo

This movement toward unifying the way people pay for charging is small but still very important step. We need EV ownership to be as close to hassle-free as possible. The vehicles are already excellent in terms of driving and maintenance, but public recharging at facilities an owner doesn’t normally use, e.g. on a long, one-off trip, can still be a huge pain in the neck.

Brandon

Precisely. What you are getting at is exactly what I was thinking to add to the discussion here, and that is this:
I hope most of the ultra fast CCS chargers that Porche installs will be at great retail and eating locations along major highways, not at Porsche dealerships that are out of the way and don’t have things like 24/7 restroom availability.

TomArt

Yep, like Tesla has done with the SC network!

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

“not at Porsche dealerships that are out of the way and don’t have things like 24/7 restroom availability.”

If I recall, the article they had said they would start at Porsche main offices and stealerships first.

From the sounds of Bill Howlands post above, it’s not moving very fast.

antrik

They still have like two years before they start selling the Taycan in the US — so they are in no kind of hurry…

Brandon

Yeah, but they are aiming to have a decent network in place by the time there are Taycan’s roaming the roads.

CDAVIS

Porsche’s Michael Kiefe said: “…So I’m confronted with a chicken-and-egg question. No charging network, no electric vehicles. And if there are no electric vehicles, no one will invest in a charging network.. we are providing the market with an efficient solution, while at the same time the Volkswagen Group is participating in the “Ionity” joint venture for the expansion of a fast-charging network along the European highways. Once there are enough electric vehicles on the road, investors will undoubtedly jump on the bandwagon with charging stations and make a business case out of it with which they can make money…”
————-

Hopefully that Porsche fast charge network plan will result in Eurpoean Porsche Taycan customers having (from very start of Taycan production deliveries) access to a convenient and reliable fast charge network for those occasional long distance trips. Poor access to a convenient and reliable fast charge network will likely considerably taint the “Porsche Driving Experience”… that would not be a good EV start for Porsche.

FreePat75014
Still no YouTube demo of an end to end 800V/350KW ultra-fast charging cycle. WHY ??? Understand they want to show only the optimum charging cycle between 10% and 80% SOC +/-, hence the 70% quote, but at least we would want to see a video demo of that in REAL ! Strange they used to say 15mn and now they say 20mn, for the 70% charge between optimal 10% to 80% SOC. Why ? Plus we need to understand what battery warranty will be granted to understand at whom expenses the much faster >3.5C charges will be (vs Tesla 1.2C cap on S&X). Same world-standard 8 Years unlimited millage set by Tesla on Model S & X, or less ? And still so many mysteries remain hidden… And the start at 150kW that means 400 Volts (# like Tesla), strange. Either the battery is 800V or 400V optimized. Understand they want to enable 400V on 800V capable EVs too, so they can charge everywhere, but still a mystery to me how they will do that technically. Will they split the pack in 2 half at 400V each and dynamically connect them in series when charging at 800V or in paralell… Read more »
Brandon

These 800 volt fast chargers that Electrify America is installing are still about a year and a half away from getting used by the first EV that will be capable of 350 kW charging, the Porsche Taycan. So you’ll have to wait till owners get their Taycan’s and take videos.

Bill Howland
Well, the large AC charging installations commonplace in Europe apparently are non-existent currently in the States. There is a new AC SAE standard – but I suspect that will mainly be used for large commercial vehicles, if they use it at all. In the states, there isn’t much use for a high power charger in the car (even North American Teslas don’t get 19.2 kw chargers in their cars anymore (new Teslas are limited to 14 to 17.3 kw). A small low-cost on-board AC charging facility is adequate for emergencies, since the dispensers in the field are 2.8 – 7.2 kw, with 6 kw being a happy average, and day to day charging at a high speed will happen back at home base for large trucks and buses. (I’m ignoring anything faster, since the nearest 14 kw level 2 charger is 160 miles from here (Donated by an Early Tesla owner prior to the Supercharger Era) – they are so rare, they’re not worth mentioning. Of course Tesla has their own destination chargers which are usually decent, but are a proprietary tesla product only, except with a converter cord – but then you’re limited to what the non-tesla can take… Read more »