Phoenix CBS Affiliate Airs Out LEAF Capacity Loss Issue (Video)

JUL 19 2012 BY MARC LEE 26

Phoenician LEAF owners who have experienced early battery capacity loss are growing frustrated with Nissan’s low balling the number of LEAFs affected and its steady insistence that the losses are “normal”    Now thanks to CBS affiliate KPHO in Phoenix Arizona, and the laudable efforts of the LEAF owners themselves, it is going to be much more difficult for Nissan to keep stonewalling on this issue.

TV Journalist Heather Moore reports there are 400 LEAFs in Arizona.  The MNL Wiki shows 34 LEAFs just in Arizona reporting at least one lost capacity bar.  If 8.5% of  Arizona LEAFs have reported on problem MNL, it is not hard to imagine that the actual number suffering from capacity loss is double or triple that since most owners are not active on or even aware of MNL.

The TV news segment highlighted the case of one LEAF owner, Scott Yarosh who while still loving his car, states:

 When I first purchased the vehicle, I could drive to and from work on a single charge, approximately 90 miles round trip, And now, I can drive approximately 44 miles on this without having to stop and charge

Yarosh has lost 3 capacity bars, which should correlate to about 28% capacity loss.  Yet his statement above indicates about 48% capacity loss.  Three minutes of air time did not afford the opportunity explain that discrepancy.

Nissan’s Director of Product Planning,  Mark Perry spoke with Moore,  and says that Nissan is investigating “five complaints of rapid loss of battery capacity” and concluded “we want to learn more about what’s going on, but it’s something we’ve just been made aware of, and we don’t have any conclusions yet,”

Clearly more than 5 people are involved.  Either people aren’t calling in about this problem or the numbers are not getting reported up the chain to Mr. Perry.  And strangely Perry offered the suggestion that:

Owners with similar complaints shouldn’t leave the dealership before making sure the dealership calls the region’s technical service manager

Maybe there really is a “issue” with getting this reported up the chain?

Perry’s suggestion that only 5 are involved prompted the MNL group of LEAF owners affected by this to begin documenting the case numbers for those who have called in to make a formal complaint on  Nissan’s EV hotline, and they repeated pleas for those with capacity loss issues to call that number at 877-664-2738.

Some owners calling in have been asked what remedy they are seeking.  One owner suggested a fan.  The LEAF already has a fan, although its purpose is not to cool the battery but rather to make certain that all the cells are equally hot.  Seems the remedy most these owners want is an assurance of a  70% capacity retention over the eight year/100k mile “warranty” period of the battery, which is probably what most thought they were getting in the first place.

The organization and savy with which this group of LEAF owners has doggedly pursued this issue should make clear to all OEMs that early adopters of EVs are not a group to be toyed with.

CBS 5 – KPHO

Categories: Battery Tech, Charging, Nissan

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26 Comments on "Phoenix CBS Affiliate Airs Out LEAF Capacity Loss Issue (Video)"

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Ambulator

“Seems the remedy most these owners want is an assurance of no more than 70% capacity loss over the eight year/100k mile “warranty” period…”

I think they were expecting no more that a 30% capacity loss, not 70%.

MOD EDIT: Yupe, little typo there. /fixed

Jay Cole

Who knew Phoenician was the plural term for people in Phoenix? Not I.

…learn something everyday

vdiv

If I was a Leaf owner experiencing this issue, maybe I would want the battery to lose capacity beyond the threshold before the warranty expires so that I can get a new and hopefully improved one.

Wood Foss

Now that is a little scarry. I have researched the cost of a replacement battery for the Focus and it is $10,563.00 not including labor. Ouch…. Let us know what if any resolution this develops into….

Lindsay

Does that cost include a “trade-in” value for the battery that is being replaced? Or is it just the cost of a replacement battery?

Mark Hovis

Very good point. It is most likely just the cost. There will be a market for the 60%-70% battery such as for PV solar. It also may not include labor. I have already asked this question of my Chevy dealer and was pleased to find the labor charge at $365. Not bad. Also if you check out the battery section on this site, you will find the prediction of this listed price dropping substantially before replacement is required. Of course smaller KW batteries in the HEVs will cost less to replace. Comparing the replacement cost to timing belt replacements and oil changes, the difference could be recouped quickly in a HEV. Current cost based on $600/KW. Some are speculating the replacement cost around 200-300/KW.

Open-Mind

For Nissan, the cost of proactively replacing a few battery packs will be much cheaper than the cost of the bad-PR tsunami that’s coming if this escalates. Plus then they could analyze the failed packs in their labs to diagnose the actual problem.

Simple choice … spend $1 now or spend $10 later.

James

We organized a meeting of some of the affected owners in Phoenix last night, and I think we had at least 8 Leafs (and one electric scooter) present, so this 5 number that Perry is throwing about is bunk. At least two drivers in Phoenix have lost around 30% capacity, and I’m at between 15-20% loss. At 70% the battery is generally considered spent.

Mark Hovis
I remember when GM threw the gauntlet down with the 8 year battery warranty. I remember meeting with a sales manager from Tesla trying to explain to me all the superior aspects of the Tesla while carrying a 3 year warranty. There was no getting around what GM had done. At the time Nissan also offered a 3 year warranty on their battery and was forced to match the Volt. I also remember the anxiety over the news of NHTSA battery fire with the liquid cooled battery pack on the Chevy Volt. Was this an inferior design? After taking a breath over the single incident, I was back to being content with my liquid cooled battery. I am no expert on the chemistry, but I think with the current battery technology, the liquid cooled pack in the Volt will surface as a superior design to the air cooled method. Of course in the years to come, there will be new battery technologies that surpass all of the current designs. I plan on keeping my Volt past the second battery which with battery cost largely determined by KW, the replacement should be about $2000 less hence making the $5000 divide even… Read more »
scottf200

Re: Nissan LEAF Battery Warranty Update
Posted by Jay (Statik) Cole on October 26, 2010
http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/10/26/nissan-leaf-battery-warranty-update/

scottf200

Also note that it is just not folks in Phoenix, AZ as TX and CA have hot areas where they are being reports. See list there:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#three_bars
P.S. Even as another *EV owner I sure hope Nissan treats these folks right … and fast!

George Bower

Is this a permanent loss of capacity or will the range bounce back when the temps cool off??

Jay Cole

It is permanent George. In hot weather you are actually getting optimal range out of whatever capacity you have in your battery.

The drawback of course is when your core pack temperature gets over 95F (not outside temp) your starting to do damage, especially when you plug it in.

The greater the temperature above 95F in this cell chemistry the greater the damage/acceleration of damage that is potentially being done to your future usable capacity.

Marc Lee

There is some thought, that “some” of this capacity may come back when the weather cools. It is possible that the battery is restricting capacity when hot to protect itself. But indications are that for the most part we are talking permanent capacity loss.

Koz

Actually, the opposite will happen once it cools below optimal. It may get slightly better at mild temps, as Mark Lee suggests, but Arizona also has cold winters (well…relatively cold compared to Florida where I am. Not Wisconsin cold but cold in the context of this discussion. Once temps get below 50 or so they will start to lose range similar to the Volt.

Koz

Nissan may offer to repair or replace packs on some pro-rated basis but that won’t fix the problem. They have a fundamental issue with their current battery implementation and hot climates. The only way out without major lawsuits is to buyback vehicles and stop selling into hot climates until they have a battery solution that that works reasonably well in these climates.

Mark Hovis

I agree. I think it would be a shame for Nissan to lose credibility over a limited market. EV insiders must not take for granted that the masses will understand such a move though. I am guessing this is why Nissan is a little slow to respond. I made the statement that I plan on keeping my EV past the second battery 8 years from now. I bet my second battery (manufactured in 2020) will not be the same as the first.

azonie

With nissans current battery tech (or lack there of), out of all the possible solutions, the one that makes the most sence is to buy back all the ev’s sold in +95 degree climates and stop selling into those markes

Bill Branham

Nissan’s Director of Product Planning, Mark Perry spoke and says that Nissan is investigating “five complaints of rapid loss of battery capacity” and concluded “we want to learn more about what’s going on, but it’s something we’ve just been made aware of, and we don’t have any conclusions yet,”