Nissan LEAF Owner Discusses His 2-Year Experience With Electric Car – Explains Why He’ll Never Get Another LEAF – Video

APR 27 2015 BY MIKE ANTHONY 330

Blaylock In His Nissan LEAF

Blaylock In His Nissan LEAF

“So it’s been two years since my initial Nissan Leaf review I made just after leasing the car. This video talks about some of my experiences with the car, my overall feelings about the car and all electric cars in general, and the reasons that I’m turning in the car back to Nissan and don’t plan on getting another one.” – Video description.

Everyone has different experiences with an EV, especially in different areas . However, this one in particular caught our attention.

Georgia resident mrjeremyblaylock, who leased a Nissan LEAF, is on his way back to the Nissan dealership to return it, as it is the end of his two-year term.

Throughout the entire 25-minute video above, he explains how he feels about the Nissan LEAF, and why he will never get another one…

Since there is quite a bit to talk about as to why he feels this way, it is best to listen to the video to understand his opinions.

We respect his opinion on this matter, though we feel this may help raise awareness on not only the charging infrastructure, but also on the need for EVs to have range of well over 85 miles.

This ~ 85 mile number does not appear to be a real world figure under most conditions. Use of accessories and climate system are likely to eat quite a bit of range, which is part of what the problem is.  Battery degradation over time is an issue too.

Even though most people do not need more than 85 miles of range on a daily basis, just about everyone wants more range, which is absolutely understandable.

The only EV that can deliver on range is the Tesla Model S, which blaylock briefly mentions in the video.

After watching the video, what are your thoughts on this matter?

Update:  Adding (below) Jeremy’s original video and take on his Nissan LEAF when he first took possession two years ago (hat tip to Josh!)

Categories: Nissan

Tags:

Leave a Reply

330 Comments on "Nissan LEAF Owner Discusses His 2-Year Experience With Electric Car – Explains Why He’ll Never Get Another LEAF – Video"

newest oldest most voted

Sounds like he has already made up his mind long before this video.

Well, he did lease it for two years.

That moment, when you smack your forehead and say…

not a problem really, it sounds like he is planning to correct that…

this guy doesn’t have a level 2 at home so ,i can understand way he isn’t that happy with the car.level 2 at home is a must ,but a lot of people live with level one ,15 hours for a full charge,that’s more than over night!

I charge my BEV in four hours off my Level 1.

http://www.whathappensnow.com/articles_show.cfm?id=443&cat=1&sub=3

I’m calling BS

Probably because you don’t drive your pack to exhaustion daily. You only replace what you use you know…..

Yeah, I noticed that too. He didn’t come out and say he only has a L1 charger at home, but we can infer that from what he said.

He also said he had problems with range reduction from below-20-degree weather, so that’s another reason he needs a L2 charger. A lot of people who live where the climate is mild say all they need is an L1 charger.

Furthermore, he needed a slow-charger at work, so he could drive down and have lunch with his wife. He didn’t say anything about his work situation, and whether or not he had asked for a L1 charger to be installed in the employee parking lot.

He could have solving his charging problem cheaply with a PlugShare phone app and this – http://my.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/combining-two-120v-240v-connector. His 2nd concern I call range “inconvience”, and is only valid in his worst case scenario (poor home & public charging; what appeared to be long commutes; cold weather; no 2nd car). He actually never ran out of charge and got stuck. Range “anxiety” is a complete misnomer. It only took me some forethought and a few days to adjust to my Leaf, then I was good. But good for him for trying, in his situation I would have gone for a Volt.

Not installing a L2 charger when you’re committing to a lease is stupidity. $1k or less for that is peanuts compared to gas savings.

But every other point of his is valid. Short range pure EVs will always be niche cars because almost everyone wants that once-a-year emergency to be handled by the car, and they’ll remember when their car falls short of getting the job done.

A L2 charger goes for about $500 last I looked, but there’s the issue of the circuit. You could say, hell, run a really long extension cord to the basement and swap it out with your electric dryer, but most people don’t want to do that. So now you’re hiring a licensed electrician to run a line to the garage, and (depending) maybe pay a local inspection fee. All that for a 2-year lease that you did just for the hell of it? I can forgive him for not going there, or at least not call his decision stupid.

He told you that he’d made up his mind “long before.” Didn’t you listen to him? He made the video on the way to give the car back to the dealer. And he’d already bought a replacement.

Sorry I didn’t pay attention to his every word. I could of said in 22 seconds what took him 22 mins.

LOL, I can’t blame you. When I saw that it was a 25-minute video, I was reluctant to watch it. I can count the number of long Internet videos I’ve watched on the fingers of one hand. I was sufficiently interested this time to make a rare exception.

I only watched this because there were so many comments. I do feel it was a waste of my time, so I’m puzzled that it’s generated so much discussion.

If it’s such a waste of time, please tell us what’s responsible for your multiple comments in this thread.

of course he made up his mind long before he did the video. after all, the video was made as he was driving to the dealership to return his Leaf. it was interesting to watch this video because he is saying many of the things that i have been saying here all along. it is not a good idea to have a BEV as your only car, because when it is your only car it has to satisfy your driving needs 100% of the time. as he points out in the video, owning a BEV can be a dicey proposition when the unexpected happens. this is exactly the kind of person to whom automakers need to listen because he is really giving a realistic assessment of the BEV from the perspective of a person who is favorably inclined toward EV technology. this video also reaffirms that Chevrolet was on the right track with the Volt and i think that as people gain more experience with BEVs they will realize that the more practical way to go is PHEV. there are some who will say that charging infrastructure is the solution, and while he did mention that he would have liked… Read more »

While you mentioned plug-in oil burner cars as our savior, you clearly understand that robust FAST and DEPENDABLE charge infrastructure and far larger batteries win in the end (unless you really like gasoline or diesel).

no they do not win in the end for the very reasons pointed out in the video; even 20 minutes is a long time when you can refill a car in 5 minutes. it seems unlikely that you would be able to recharge a large battery in 5 minutes; such would require megawatt EVSE, which would be a rather hazardous piece of equipment.

“no comment” said:

“it seems unlikely that you would be able to recharge a large battery in 5 minutes; such would require megawatt EVSE, which would be a rather hazardous piece of equipment.”

Super-fast-charging will absolutely require the charger to be designed to the same charging protocol as the car. I’m not an electrical engineer, but it seems very likely to me that super-fast-charging will require the charger to be plugged directly into the DC power system inside the car, bypassing any EVSE and also bypassing the car’s onboard charger.

Hopefully by the time the tech is developed sufficiently to charge, say, 300 miles worth of electricity in 10 minutes, EV makers will have agreed on a single charging standard.

Hopefully by the time the tech is developed sufficiently to charge, say, 300 miles worth of electricity in 10 minutes

That will be pathetic. 30 miles a minute, when the average U.S. small gas car refuels at 140 miles a minute?

That would be true if gas cars refueled at home on a daily basis. 30 minutes per 170 miles the handful or two times per year that most people actually drive their own car beyond 200 miles in a day is more than sufficiently offset by the 7-10 min time savings every 1-3 weeks by not visiting the delightful gas stations and paying $40-120 for that pleasure.

The next gen Leaf fixes his problem, if it has 150 mile range.

The Chevy Bolt with 200 miles of range fixes his problem.
The problem will be solved in less than 2 years,

Or, he can buy the next Volt, like he mentions in the video.

With 200 mile range, most people will never have an issue with range, or even finding a charger, most people will never need a public charger.

He says on the video that a bigger battery wouldn’t do it for him. I’ve been thinking about that, and can see it both ways. If it’s his only car (and it sounds like it is), then I can see how even a Tesla S85 wouldn’t cut it, because the minute he takes off for the country he’s gonna have issues.

If the LEAF was a second car, the situation would be different. He’d still need a bigger battery, but I think 65 kWh might be adequate for a lot of commuters as long as the price was right — which it isn’t at 24 kWh and certainly won’t be anytime soon at 60 kWh or ever 48 kWh.

there is more to it than that; if you are driving every day, and there is a deficit between the amount of driving that you do each day and the amount of charge that you recover from recharging each day; you may not have an issue on monday, but you might not be able to get to work and home by friday.

i think that the speaker in the video has the realistic perspective that you have to look at what it takes to be able to drive a BEV *every* day, and not just on the day after you have fully recharged the battery.

It’s not just the range of the vehicle that turned him off to ~85 mile EVs – it’s the lack of reliable and ubiquitous public charging stations.

If there were multiple charging stations at every gas station that you could count on getting a charge (and preferably a quick charge), many objections to 85 mile EVs would go away.

This needs to happen anyway as having more range only delays the need for public charging, but it does not eliminate it especially as the number of EVs on the roads grow.

Why would anyone want to be stuck waiting for their car to recharge every 70 miles? No one will build recharging stations because no one will use them because it is absurdly impractical to operate a car that only runs 70-80 miles per charge that takes hours to recharge. Leaf’s are like second or third cars for families that are obsessed with “being green” and who can afford to plan to drive it only down the street to the store or to their job and back each day. It’s a city car.

I agree with you. A BEV is a supplement. And, as he says in the video (and as I’ve said in other comment sections here), I don’t think public charging cuts it. Not even “superchargers” cut it.

He probably is a Volt guy, but hasn’t realized yet.

Actually, he does realize it. But he got a Jeep Cherokee instead because he wants a vehicle that will tow stuff.

Most arguments supporting a Volt will work for any gasser. Might as well go straight to the gas SUV.

Range? No problem. Just filler er up with polluting petroleum products.

as he said in the video, in the Volt, he would probably be able to drive without using gasoline most of the time but he has the range extender as backup to allow him to do discretionary driving that he has had to forgo in the Leaf.

Yeah, except the argument of doing 80%+ of mileage on electricity that’s cheap, domestically produced, and displaces ME oil imports.

You know, the whole raison d’etre of the Volt.

Yeah, except the argument of doing 80%+ of mileage on electricity that’s cheap, domestically produced, and displaces ME oil imports. You know, the whole raison d’etre of the Volt.

Maybe your (high falutin French for reason to be), but I don’t think the mainstream buyer cares about the raison d’etre or the reason for being. He just wants to save a few bucks on gas.

No American wants to help stop global warming?
Are most Americans waiting for someone else to solve this? Because Exxon isn’t going to do it.

Repeat: The mainstream buyer doesn’t care about virtue. He’ll be happy to take virtue, but it’s not going to make him an EV.

correction: … it’s not going to make him buy an EV.

Whether a BEV is a “supplement” or not depends entirely on one’s use case. We have two BEVs (60-ish mile range in both, sometimes worse), and a gas car. The gas car gets used maybe 4-5 times a year. So the gas car is the “supplement” for us. We do occasionally use public charging.

Yes @Zim, because all of us go on that Great American Road Trip every other day 😉

Not.

Most American cars do 30-50 miles a day max.

The Leaf is typically the family’s first car in terms of usage. And if they have another car that’s ICE, that car becomes a second, special-mission-only type of vehicle. In other words, one you could often just replace with an occasional rental.

But thanks for the name-calling anyway.

+1 – oh! my god – exactly – wake-up – Zim – such a hater

If you are stuck waiting for your EV to charge every 70 miles, then you made some poor decisions about how to utilize and charge your EV.

I prefer to have a “magically” full every morning EV, rather than one I have to wait for. Same car, just different utilization.

by definition, if you use a LEAF according to the manufacturer’s instructions, you’ll have a 70-mile range on 80% of the battery. It’s a characteristic of the car. And if it’s a really cold winter day, the 80% range will be 40 miles without the heater. This is simply true, and the fella in the video didn’t want to put up with that, and other range limitations.

He didn’t misuse the car, nor was he stupid. It’s not the car for him. You can pick it apart if you want, or you can accept it as a candid and factual assessment from a mainstream driver. Perfect driver? Hey I’m the only perfect driver, right?

Seriously, be reasonable.

I think you have read too much into what I wrote. My comment was addressing “stuck waiting for their car to recharge every 70 miles” from Zim which I don’t think applied to the person in the video. It may not apply to anyone at all and exist only in Zim’s hypothetical situation. The video maker only got stuck waiting a couple of times in the 2 years he owned the vehicle.

To clarify, my point was that one needs to consider how the tool will be used (in this case a car) when deciding which tool to purchase. If a person has no means of charging conveniently, an EV likely a poor choice for them.

Fair enough. Please try to understand that these comment sections wind up turning on subsidiary points, so I tend to get an attack of the literals when I post.

what he was saying in the video was that for the most part the Leaf *did* work out for him. his biggest concern was what happened in unexpected circumstances. as he stated, he felt that the range of the gen2 Volt would probably be enough for his use but what he wanted was the security of the backup generator.

One thing that puzzles me about the complaints in the video is the guy repeatedly forgot to plug in his Leaf at night. How do you forget that, once you’ve gotten into the habit? Most people who write about that say that it quickly becomes a habit, and they never have to worry about forgetting. It should be as automatic as closing the garage door after you get out of the car.

So that is one reason the Leaf was an ill fit for this driver.

it is not fair to state that he *repeatedly* forgot to charge, he did mention that it had happened that he forgot to charge. i have had it happen when i forgot to charge my Volt; i had gotten home and i had stuff on my mind so i just didn’t think to plug it in. the next time i got in the car i realized that i had failed to recharge the vehicle. fortunately i was able to drive off the generator.

if you ever buy an electric vehicle, there will be circumstances in which you will forget to recharge the vehicle. it can happen to anyone.

“no comment” said:

“it is not fair to state that he *repeatedly* forgot to charge, he did mention that it had happened that he forgot to charge.”

My comment was fair. At one point he said something like “The next time I forgot to charge…”

“if you ever buy an electric vehicle, there will be circumstances in which you will forget to recharge the vehicle. it can happen to anyone.”

Well, let’s just say I’ve seen plenty of people online saying precisely the opposite. People who say once it becomes part of your routine, you never forget. But “Your mileage may vary.” 🙂

The people you know are EV geeks. The guy in the video isn’t. That’s the whole point. If all you want to care about is EV geeks, fine, but it’ll be a small niche now and in 30 years.

Lots of possible reasons for that… Say you get an important phone call right when you get home that distracts you.
Maybe you need to get inside the house urgently, so you leave the car outside the garage, thinking “I’ll move it inside & plug it in later”, and the forget.
Basically, anything that disrupts your routine can cause you not to plug in.

Because of that, I consider the absolute bare minimum or range to be 2x of the daily mileage, just like I don’t buy a cellphone unless it can last for over two full days on a charge.

Actually my family only has one car, and it’s a LEAF. Living in San Diego, it suits my needs perfectly. I can drive anywhere in California. Further, Las Vegas will be doable very soon, and I have no problem with the charging time adding to the journey time, as I know I’m saving money to compensate.

I can drive anywhere in California.

Please tell us about your trip to Crescent City and back.

http://www.upi.com/News_Photos/News/Effects-of-Gulf-oil-spill-on-wildlife/fp/3269/

Sorry birds, but you see, it’s just *too inconvenient* to wait an extra 15 minutes the 6 times a year I need to charge my car outside of my garage. It’s *absurdly impractical* for me to take a little extra time to get somewhere at 70 mph. So I’m just going to have to keep dumping oil on you and make the world that much more unlivable for you and the fish, and the dolphins, and the plants on the bottom of the ocean that make the air we all breathe. And speaking of air we all breathe, you’re just going to have to keep flying through the smokestacks of the refineries we build and the smog we fill the air with.

That extra 15 minutes out of my life is just *too high a price to pay*. So you’ve just got to go.

It’s not an extra 15 minutes. With a LEAF, it’s an extra several hours per charge.

I don’t have time to watch this video right now, but I do worry about the current round of mediocre-range EVs coupled with the near stillborn infrastructure turning off a generation of drivers from EVs. In a way, this is an argument for NOT advertising/pushing EVs just yet. In 2020, when the range has doubled on most offerings, it will be a different story.

I only half listened to it (while working), but I did hear him mention the 2016 Volt. If prices right, I think he new Volt will grab many former LEAF leasers that found the range not quite sufficient.

That is exactly my situation with my Leaf and yes we are waiting for the 2016 Volt to replace our Leaf.

+1

(I hope they have enough production to meet the demand from all the disenchanted Leaf owners!)

Ditto, I can’t watch videos at work but I already know all about it after living with a Leaf for 2 years. It’s a nice car, greatest driving car I’ve ever owned, but without a bigger battery/range extender/more infrastructure, it’s just not worth it. Living in a condo makes an 80 mile car more trouble than it’s worth. I was willing to put up with it to be a pioneer (one of the first in town to own one, now there’s lots!) but I cannot see this as a practical long term solution. Agreed with other posters, great local commuter, fine for a 2nd car, but garage with L2 is a MUST, at least double the range needed to make this usable to the vast majority of drivers. My next car will be a Model 3.

Well Brian I think you’ll half agree with this guy, and half say how could he be stupid. He only has 110 at his garage, as you did initially, which is fair enough since most of us buy cars ‘on a budget’ and don’t want to spend thousands for a ‘car charger’ if we don’t have to. You and I put in an EVSE in our garages since they are nice to have anyway, and are somewhat ‘fun’, besides being able to relatively quickly charge our cars back up.

This guy’s troubles started when he ‘forgot to plug the car in’. I’m sure you’ll agree, when all you have is a BEV, and you can only charge at 110, the one thing you *CANNOT* do is forget to plug in, if you have to be at work the next day. And we, of course, agree that batteries in general, especially with today’s lower pricing, are too small.

I didn’t get the impression that he abandoned his LEAF based on one incident where he forgot to plug it in. He mentioned that, but mentioned lots of other things too.

One aspect of ICEVs is that they’re a good deal more forgiving, in the sense that someone can make their minor mistakes and survive pretty much intact. EVs, not so much, especially when it comes to anything having to do with range. At this point in time, to own an EV is to have to pay a lot more attention to range and charging than an ICEV owner has to.

The reason: The average EV (non Tesla) starts from a very limited range. Doesn’t take much of a screw up to have a real problem, especially on a cold winter’s day. Mainstream buyers really don’t want to have to worry that much.

He didn’t forget to plug it in just once. At one point he said something like “The next time I forgot to plug it in…”

Once is understandable, if something distracted him just as he was pulling into the garage. Forgetting multiple times means that for some reason, he wasn’t able to develop a regular habit of plugging it in at night. That makes him an outlier, not a typical driver.

You have a pretty unforgiving idea of daily habits.

Like many Americans, I have a cellphone. I’ve had one for over 15 years and it is my intention to charge it every night. That doesn’t mean that over the last 5000 days, I’ve never forgotten to plug it in when I go to sleep. Sometimes you get distracted from your normal routine.

Similarly, while you may fully intend to plug in your EV every time you get home, sometimes you may pull into your garage and have to defuse a crisis between family members before you can even close the garage door, or you may need to run inside and log on to a web conference immediately. This is the kind of thing that happens in everyday life, and if this disqualifies you from owning an EV, there are a lot of people who will be disqualified.

No kidding. The average buyer doesn’t want to fuss around.

You plug in at night, and then never have to visit a gas station again. And since most people do that going to work, you’ll never be late again.

It’s a Good Tradeoff.
Fueling from home is 100% better.

I do both. Because I keep meticulous records on my EV, I spent a whole lot more time in its refill process than I do with my truck. But if EVs were mainstream and this wasn’t my personal science project, you’d be right.

Maybe someone can answer this question for me. As its on a related topic: speed of charging I recently had an i3 for a week, which was followed by a e-Golf. The e-Golf seemed to charge a lot faster than the i3 even though they were plugged into the same 110 V socket both times and should have the same sort of charger built in. When I plugged both into L2 chargers near my office, they both seemed to charge at roughly the same rate. The only difference is that the i3Rx I had was done to 5% range when I got it. The e-Golf had about 60 miles of charge left on it when it turned up. Would that have caused the main difference? (answers to pkg@aip.org please or under this comment). For some reason with the e-Golf my range anxiety was a lot less than driving the i3 or Leaf but I don’t know if its because I got used to it by the time the e-Golf turned up. I did also drive a Leaf and its charging seemed closer to the i3 than the e-Golf (and the e-Golf seemed to have longer range too). I should add… Read more »

You should not base any charging behavior off of a 110v outlet.

Anyone buying a BEV (any of the three you mentioned) should get an 220V EVSE which cuts the charge time down by roughly a factor of three.

For a PHEV (like Volt, Cmax Energi, Fusion Energi), a 110v outlet should be fine for overnight charging, as they can always use gas if they run out of charge.

While I don’t have any experience with either car, level 1 charging should have similar rates in both cars. Level 1 charging tends to be about a maximum 1.6 kW.

What you could be seeing is changes in battery temperature. I can park my car on a cold morning at work and find my range has increased when I go home because the battery has warmed up during the day.

PaulG, I believe your answer is the I3 may be set to 110 volt charging at either 8, 12 , or 16 amps, if your charger brick can ‘take it’. Most I3 charger bricks I’ve seen are 12 amps maximum. But without being there, I’d wager your I3 was charging at 8, and the EGOLF, which, as far as I know is only 12 amps, charged at that rate, and would explain why the VW was 50% faster than the I3, or, in other words, by selecting the intermediate ‘speed’ instead of the slow one, you’d have 1/2 again the charging speed with the I3 that you did.

Thanks! That’s extremely helpful. (and the other comments too).

You are more than welcome. I’m the type of guy that always asks detailed questions, but seldom get complete answers. Its been 3 years now, but I’m still unsure about the range availability with the Model S. So I ask owners who I think will give me unbiased opinions, and don’t ask those who I think will be biased.

There is more variation in EV performance than there is in gasoline cars. But the answers while there, seem to be harder to find with EV’s so the only thing I can do is keep asking questions. I have a Roadster and Volt by the way, both 2011’s.

Bill, I’m the same detail and numbers guy. If you ever feel like continuing our exchange in that one solar thread, I’d really like to. If not, I’ll understand.

Well, I’ve given you all the dollar figures of my system, its arrangement, and what it produced so far in the 10 1/2 months I’ve had it up. So I’m not sure what more there is to say since I’ve already spelled out the Net Metering in NY State.

I’ve got more questions. I’m not going to list them here because I don’t want to derail the thread. If you forget which thread or didn’t bookmark it, here’s a link. I truly appreciated your answers, and would love to close the circle there.

http://tinyurl.com/solrthrd

It is also possible that some of the charging energy is diverted to battery thermal control while the e-Golf doesn’t…

If the Leaf were anywhere close to a rock solid 85 miles of range day one and didn’t degrade fairly quickly the issues would be a lot less. Not sure that I agree great public charging infrastructure will do much for the general public’s appreciation of EV’s. Certainly multi-family, workplace, and destination charging will help. I just don’t see many in the general public using opportunity charging much.

I regularly get over 90 miles per charge in the city in my 2013 Leaf.

I regularly got less than 60 miles of range on the highway with my 2011 LEAF.

It’d be good to know from each of you what your SOC was after those drives, plus climate conditions when driven.

100% charge (every night), 70 mph highway, A/C didn’t matter much, but the heater at 5 – 10% range in Houston.

I would drink hot tea and wear a jacket in the mornings and skip running the heat. But then the damn windows would fog up.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved my LEAF. But the battery degradation over 3 years made it unusable for my driving needs.

I agree 180-200 miles should be the minimum starting range of all EVs. I wonder if he had a Level2 charger at home. If he did, why wouldn’t he have charged at home the day he forgot to plug-in the night before? All EV owners need Level2 charging at home.

NPNS! SBF!
Volt#671

I don’t want to waste my money for battery capacity I rarely use one or two times per year.

Did you also think the large gas tank was a waste of money? Do you never fill up your gas tank because you think it’s a waste do drag around extra gas and weight?

NPNS! SBF!
Volt#671

My big truck has a 32-gallon tank, and that’s a good thing!

That’s why sports cars Don’t have 32 gallon gas tanks.
Yes, gas is dead weight, and you actually don’t want too much on board, if you enjoy sporting driving.

By that same argument, very few people other than “soccer moms” would buy anything larger than a two-seat microcar. Why pay more to have a back seat when you so rarely have anyone sitting back there?

Actually, it makes even less sense to insist on a small battery pack than to insist on no back seat in the car. Larger battery packs have other advantages, such as degrading slower as they age, and being able to charge faster (in terms of miles added per minute/hour of charge) than smaller packs.

“The only EV that can deliver on range is the Tesla Model S, which blaylock briefly mentions in the video”

Here is another problem. Our own EV community unwilling to recognize the answer to his problem, and that being an EV with a range extender, which the driver talked about at great length and did not show up in the story.

What is better, to get the guy in a Volt and have him keep it, or frown on a range extender as not being pure enough and end up back in an ICE?

In time. we will have the infrastructure. In a very short time, we will have longer range BEVs. For me, a 150-200 BEV will do it. For this guy, it will not. He said so. I will certainly own a Tesla at some point, for I love the company and the product just that much. I think I will always own an EREV as not to dis people like this. For everyone who really can make it on a BEV, I applaud you all, for you are the future. This is a failure that I hate seeing repeated.

Well said. The “holier than thou” attitude of people who say that “A PHEV isn’t good enough; you must buy a BEV!” is downright counter-productive. The guy who wants a PHEV but for some reason is dissuaded, probably won’t buy a BEV. He’ll just buy a gas guzzler… like the guy in the video.

Personally, I’d rather have a PHEV -if- there was one available with a 60+ mile real-world electric range, so I would only have to use the “range extender” when driving outside my local area. But there’s no PHEV on the market with a range that big.

I’m sorry this guy had a leaf for 2 years and did not have a L2 evse in his home garage? What?
He would run out of charge in a Tesla too if he depended on 120v charging at home.
This is as bad as listening to some reporter who gets handed a car for the weekend and runs it out of charge trying to hang an extension cord out his window.
His limitation is the number of kwhrs he can add at home on 120v , not the capacity of the pack
Go get a Volt you will be better off

I agree that a 240v charger is whsat to have, but at the same tie, if you plug a 24 kWh battery into a 12 amp Level 1 charger, you’ll get an 80% refill in 13 or 14 hours. Get home by 6 p.m., and you’ll be full up 8 the next morning. Not my preference at all, but possible. He mentioned starting out on really cold days at 100%, so he obviously was able to do it on Level 1.

Well at home i have a L2 240 at 40 amps, and my car is full in about 4h, if i’m empty.

I ran my EV to empty only once, just to establish a benchmark for my records. Otherwise, my average SOC at refill has been 28% in 2-1/2 years and 9,000 miles of ownership. Average recharge has been a hair over 18 kWh (3.3 miles/kWh, 114 mpg-e), which takes about 5-1/2 hours. Sounds like you have a 30 amp-rated charger; mine’s a 20 amp rated model that draws about 14 amps.

I must’ve skipped over you saying 40 amps. What does it actually draw? Rarely does something rated at X amps actually draw thst much. If you did, it would be 9.6 kWh/hour, which would fill 80% of a LEAF battery in a bit more than 2 hours.

My impression (might be wrong) is that the latest LEAFs have a 6.6 amp on-board charger, which would be rated at 30 amps, and draw 27.5 amps or thereabouts. I hear that some also accommodate DC charging, which is more powerful and somewhat faster, but you posted L2 and 40 amps, so that wouldn’t be DC, or so I’m thinking.

Correction: I meant 6.6 kWh/hr charger, not 6.6 amps.

Level 1 or level 2 charger at home does not make any difference. He said he forgot to plug his car twice. Don’t blame it on the car!

Totally agree with you.

Eh, you kind of do have to blame it on the car. This isn’t something that would happen in an ICE. If you forget to get gas on your way home from work one night, you just stop and get gas on your way to work the next morning. Even if you’re running on empty, you still have another 30 miles of range. A bigger battery makes the difference. If you forget to charge one night, you still have enough charge to get to work and back the next day, no big deal.

And yet… My wife had run out of gas more than once. ICE is not infallible. It runs poorly with no fuel.

I don’t think I’ve ever run out of gas. Came close, but haven’t actually done so. In the new cars with fuel injections, i.e. all of them, running out of gas will damage the system.

Tesla vehicles are rather in their own world, Kevin. All other EV’s can survive on 110 volt charging. Teslas (and Mercedes “B” class, and the Rav4EV) are notoriously inefficient ( in the strictest sense of the term – it costs you more $$ to charge at 110 in a Tesla than in other EV’s where the efficiency is the same at 110 or 220)..

At an EV show east of Rochester saturday, I asked about the “S”‘s charging performance on 110, and was told 2 or 3 miles per hour, sometimes only 1. ANd I know that when it is very cold out, the battery will go toward dead even though it is plugged into 110. My Tesla roadster fares somewhat better: You could survive at 110 vols, but it must be garaged and not allowed to get extremely cold, otherwise you will run out of chargingtime since all the time will be used up running a 1000 watt heater. Its either heating or charging with the Roadster. Now when my VOlt is at the lowest setting (900 watts), the car seems to charge just fine even in extremely cold weather.

All other EV’s can survive on 110 volt charging.

When I got mine, they advised getting a Level 2 charger because it’d insure that the battery cells were balanced, and that would maximize range.

Not knowing what kind of car you have CP, did the salesman make any more commission by selling you an EVSE package, or did you take care of this on your own as I did?

I’m not exactly sure what the salesman meant, but in general I’d say you can ‘balance your cells’ by giving the battery a ‘more full’ charge, at any charging rate, if your car allows a 100% charge of the battery (I have that option on my Roadster, – the only way I can change the charge shut off level of my Volt is to run the preheater and then shut it off, which charges up the battery another 1/2 kwh or so).

I have a Think City EV. Has a 24-kWh battery, same as the LEAF, and turns in very similar fuel economy numbers. Think started life as Ford’s EV division. They were too early, and got spun off when Ford ran into financial trouble. Changed hands a couple times, then gave up the ghost as a company.

I got it for $16K before the tax credit, compared to $36K list. Great little EV for what it is — and it’s a Ford, so it works. But small, independent car companies don’t usually survive, Tesla being very much an exception, along with an exotic here and there.

Anyway, I bought it directly from Think. Their person came to Oregon and sold a bunch of them there. I got that info straight from the company.

This was one person’s experience.
My Model S gets about 4 miles per hour of being plugged into a 110.
Unless, it is below freezing and the battery pack is warming. Then you may get less, or even nothing.

If you drive few miles each day, and live in the southern U.S., a 110 works fine.
For efficiency, and convenience sake, I would highly recommend a 240 connection.
That is true with any EV though.

Very interesting! This guy is a prototypical mainstream buyer. He’s making the points I’ve been making in my comments on previous articles here. I don’t expect that those who take potshots at what I write will stop doing so, but it was fun to be so vindicated. On to specifics: 1. Yep, you need a Level 2 charger at home. I tell this to everyone I meet who asks about a BEV. If you can’t hook it up to an electric dry circuit, forget it. 2. Public chargers are too slow, including Tesla’s “superchargers.” “No one wants to sit at a charger for 20 minutes.” BINGO! 3. Range is way too short. He obviously drives farther than practical for a car that’ll go 65 miles or so on 80% of the battery, in optimal weather. But he thinks even a Tesla’s range is too short. That did surprise me a bit. I’ve thought a 65 kWh battery would be enough to get the commuter-car market going, but that might not be enough. Maybe I’ve been too generous when analyzing the mainstrea requirements for EVs. 4. He endorses the Volt approach, i.e., a PHEV with “commuter” electric range plus a gas… Read more »

I agree with all of your points, but I disagree with how long it will take the technology to solve these problems.

I don’t see it happening anytime soon with lithium-ion. But I did see an interesting article in Fortune about a new aluminum ceramic battery in Japan. If true, it sounds like a quantum leap.

http://tinyurl.com/evbattn

Fortune is more credible to me than most publications, but you never know if it wasn’t planted by short sellers of TSLA stock. The quality of articles even in once-great publications has been falling fast, so skepticism is the way to go.

I also disagree that lithium ion is not sufficient. Every “200 mile” EV that has been announced is going to be using lithium ion. Not to say there won’t be a better chemistry eventually, but lithium ion will be able to deliver long range BEVs and compelling PHEVs.

As I understand it, lithium-ion chemistry is especially sensitive to loss of capacity at low temperatures, and rapid aging (loss of capacity) at high temperatures. I look forward to the next quantum jump in battery tech; hopefully whatever replaces li-ion tech will be less sensitive to temperature extremes.

Lithium-ion won’t be state of the art forever. Keep in mind that the first-generation GM EV1 used deep cycle lead-acid batteries, and those were replaced with NiMH before li-ion in turn replaced NiMH.

Better batteries -are- coming, and not merely the year-on-year gradual improvement from continually tweaking li-ion chemistry.

I basically agree with all what you wrote. It seems many early adopters have little understanding of what the mainstream buyer wants and disregarding those needs will lead to unrealistic expectations. It is likely that EV will only become real competition for ICE cars when it will become significally cheaper than ICE cars (right from purchase) and that (really) fast chargers will be spread out more or less like petrol stations. I will come but it will take time. I remember reading here a comment from a guy who leased a fiat e500 writing that the main reason he had one is because it was dirt cheap. Many young people (at least here in Europe) living in cities do not want to own a car anymore, if they eventually have one if will need to be very cheap, trouble free and on a short term lease.

EV drivers did their research and it fits their needs.
Now we have them folks who buy them without any research and they complain when the car doesn’t fill their needs, and i saw it with TESLA folks ladies and gentlemen.

Driving a plug-in EV does require more planning and dealing with different settings (for charging, for driving modes, for ensuring adequate range for a trip) than driving a gas guzzler. But then, if you read about driving a Ford Model T for any real distance, it wasn’t any different in the early days of the motorcar revolution.

In time, EVs will become more convenient and easier to use, just as happened in the early decades of the motorcar.

My impression from talking to Europeans on trips there, and from the articles I’ve read, is that car ownership is much more expensive there than it is here, due to taxes, higher insurance, higher fuel costs, and (depending on the country) tougher driver’s license requirements.

Beyond that, of course, Europe is far more densely populated than we are, so there are many more public transit alternatives. In the U.S., there are few places where not having a car is practical.

My grandparents in London never had a car and never learned to drive. It’s a common situation from just two generations ago in that part of the world.

That was possible because of a masterful public transit that almost no city in the US has.

Almost no city in the U.S. is as densely populated as London.

Because almost no city in America has decent public transit in the first place. They spent the past 70 years powered by cars, which is nearly as long as most of those cities have even existed in the first place.

New York, Boston, and Chicago have good public transit, and some others do okay if you live and work in the right places. By and large, however, we simply don’t have the density to support it even if we wanted to, which we generally don’t.

Well said, CP> Agree with all your points. My Volt’s 3 years lease is up in less than 90 days. I “assumed” there would be better, more flexible options on the market (in three years) when I leased, but now I almost wish I had just purchased it outright. The current crop is almost no better or a much worse value proposition (or both). The BMW i3 rex is kind of cool, but that small tank really makes it annoying on out of town trips (better than charging, but still) – and its ultrashort wheelbase doesn’t exactly make it a wonderful highway cruiser.
So where does that leave me? Likely another Volt, possibly even a leftover gen 1.0 since they are uber cheap and solid. It is sort of amazing there are no other 35+ mile EREVs out there beyond the Volt and i3rex.

Maybe you can persuade Chevy to keep the lease of your current car going until the new Volt comes out?

I’m quite high on the Volt in general, and especially the 2016 version because of the improved electric-only range. But it’s an expensive car compared to the gas version (Cruze, built on the same Delta II platform). There are a number of big challenges for lithium-ion EVs, cost being a biggie.

I don’t think we know the 2016 Vilt pricing yet? Or did I miss it?

This is rather my secret frustration also. Of course, we’d all like the future to get here faster than it does, but there are some things that, as you say, seem even worse now than years ago.

Today, you cannot buy a new EV1 Roadster, nor a New Roadster, nor a New Detroit Electric Roadster in the states. Now, why , oh why, doesn’t Lotus offer the US bound EVORA with an electric motor option. Heaven knows they could do it, and its bigger than the Leaf, so they could put a 100 kwh battery in the thing since there’s room. I don’t know why Tesla stopped at 70 kwh for the Roadster since about 7 years before they had 53 and battery advances haven’t been THAT STAGNANT.

There’s other silly issues, but I’ll not mention them since people get upset when I do.

typo: bigger than than Lotus-elise based roadster, not leaf.

A 100 kWh battery, with all the trimmings (inverter, BMS, etc.) will cost $40K or so. And it’ll add a lot of weight and change the driving characteristic of a Lotus, which is known for its old-school featherweight nature. Lotus, from my understanding, runs on something of a shoestring, so I’d be quite surprised if they’d make an EV for the 25 people who’d buy one.

Tesla had no problem selling their converted Elise’s for $109-159K. And they sold what? 2400 of them world wide? That ain’t too shabby. Yeah the handling ain’t that great compared to a real Lotus but its not bad either, and People who have both the S and the roadster say the S is a nice car but not nearly as fun to drive as the roadster. SO they’d sell 2500, not 25, if they didn’t get too greedy.

I keep harping on the fact that if a company makes something that is obviously wanted that no other company makes, they’ll do very well.

But Tesla made no overall profit on the Elise-based Roadster, despite raising the price 10% from the initial MSRP, and doing other things to improve income like charging outrageous prices for charging cables and adapters.

Perhaps Lotus could get away with charging a high enough price to actually make an overall profit on such a model, I dunno. For that matter, perhaps Tesla could have sold out the Roadster even if they’d have raised the price 25%. Again, I dunno.

Tesla had no problem selling their converted Elise’s for $109-159K. And they sold what? 2400 of them world wide? That ain’t too shabby.

Silicon Valley hype + first “real” EV + California status symbol = one-off

I didn’t buy my roadster for silicon valley hype nor a status symbol, and, being value conscious, I ordered it with zero options/accessories. I was also the first person of those who charge at 220 to not use a tesla approved method since I didn’t want to spend the money.

I did buy it for its 244 mile range. Which by hook or by crook I’ve still maintained.

I agree with most of your points, except for SuperChargers being inadequate. They are only inadequate if you don’t charge at home every night. Otherwise it’s only a 20 minute wait if you go on a 400 mile trip. Those trips are infrequent enough for most people, that the 20 minute snack and piss break isn’t a major inconvenience.

Actually, according to Tesla’s own numbers, if you start out with a full battery, you’ll take two breaks, during which charging alone (not counting the ancillary time involved with getting on and off the highway, maybe waiting for a charger, etc.) will take at least an hour.

If I start out with my truck’s tank being full, I’ll never have to stop for a fill-up.

No, you’re wrong. You can go 270 miles on the first charge, and Tesla’s website says you can get 170 miles of range in 30 minutes. That’s 40 miles more than necessary, so about 20 minutes like I said. In warmer weather you would need less, in colder weather you would need more. Where do you get your numbers from?

The data for Supercharging at the Tesla website is rather optimistic. From what I’ve read, the rule of thumb is 150 miles for a 30 minute charge… and in some circumstances, that 30 minutes may actually be as much as 45.

You’re correct to state that a 400 mile trip should require only one stop to charge (presuming you plan ahead and charge to 100% before starting), but only because it makes more sense to drive slower to stretch out the range, rather than stop twice for charging. In this case, driving slower on the highway will get you there faster.

If you tried to drive at 65-70 MPH, you probably wouldn’t make the 400 miles without stopping twice for a recharge… especially if you use the car’s cabin heater or air conditioner.

You can go 270 miles on the first charge

Okay, we’re done then. Not worth continuing this.

Also, are you still going on with the “I drive 400 miles without eating or taking a piss” myth? There are the people who claim that a 70 mile BEV is enough for anyone, and there are the “400 mile no piss/no eat” guys like yourself. Reality lies somewhere in between, probably closer to the 70 mile BEV guys.

I think the actual reality is that the times you are hungry or need to use the bathroom will not tidily line up with the locations Tesla has chosen for their Supercharger, so in practice you will simply be adding stops to charge on top of your normal biological needs.

BINGO! See, a lot of commenters here freely acknowledge that they don’t take road trips. Yet they freely pontificate about the realities of road trips. Interesting, no? I can give a specific example with respect to Tesla. They have a “supercharger” near Hanford, California. It’s there to serve the techie geeks who drive their sleds from Silicon Valley to L.A. It’s located on the same lot as a gas station with a convenience store. I know, because I’ve been there while a Tesla was filling up. I was in and out of there while that sled was refueling. While he took half an hour to add 170 miles of range, I took 10 minutes to add >400 miles of range, clean the windows, and wait for my passenger to come out with a diet coke and chips (ain’t it great how Americans get a diet coke with chips?) Gas stations are not my preferred rest stops. I-5 all the way from Seattle to San Diego is lined with rest areas, and most of them are one hell of a lot more appealing than the places to get gas. If Tesla had any brains, they’d have done their supercharger deals with… Read more »

CP ” BOTTOM LINE: EVs have a much tougher path to broad acceptance than the crusaders want to admit. Hate me if you want, but bookmark this fella’s video and replay it every week. I think it’s pure gold, because he’s telling it like it really is.” I agree!

CP – I agree with your points. Limited range to start with and cold weather impacts are why the Leaf won’t work for me. I’ll probably lease a 2016 Volt while I wait for the Tesla Model 3.

If I were you, I wouldn’t expect too much from the Tesla Model 3. Unless they’ve got some revolution up their sleeve, they’ll be selling a car with maybe a 60 kWh battery, and it’ll go about 3.3 miles/kWh. At best, from what I can tell, they’ll get the battery cost down enough to sticker it in the low 40s.

It’d be great if they beat that, but I ain’t expecting it and I don’t think anyone else should — unless we hear about some brand spankin’ new development. Tesla has done anything brand spankin’ new (technology-wise) yet, so I don’t see why they’ll be changing their spots in the near future. We’ll see, huh?

Tesla partnered with Panasonic for a new battery cell design. The gigafactory is being built for that specific cell, and to reduce costs.

If they miss on the gigafactory and the new cell, they are out of business.

If the Fuji battery mentioned in the Fortune article below turns out to be real (a big “if” given the issues involved), then Tesla’s dead as the proverbial door nail. And if lithium is the material of choice going forward, I doubt EVs escape from their niche. Either way, it’s hard to be very bullish on Tesla’s long-term business future, or even its medium-term outlook.

Oops, forgot the link.

http://tinyurl.com/evbattn

The Tesla Model ≡ won’t need, or have, a 60 kWh battery pack, at least not as the base model with the stipulated nominally “200 mile” range. With a shorter range than the Model S and a 20% smaller size, it can and will use a smaller battery pack. I’m guessing around 45-48 kWh.

If they give it a 45 kWh battery pack its range will be:

– 145 to 150 miles average year-’round full range (to empty, can’t move) in a relatively benign climate, i.e. the western side of the Cascades/Sierras. Better in L.A., worse in Seattle.

– On an 80% use basis, i.e. refilling at 20% SOC, range will be 115 to 120 miles.

– On the coldest winter day in Seattle, full range will be 85-90 miles, and 80% range will be 70 miles. On the idealest West Coast summer day, full range will be 175 to 180 miles and 80% range will be 140 miles.

– In Chicago, take 20% off those numbers, and more in winter.

BOTTOM LINE: A 45 kWh Tesla 3 (or any other 45 kWh EV) will not, not, not even come close to being a 200-mile car. Lie to yourself if you want, but I won’t.

CP, it is very true EVs don’t work for everyone.
Likewise, the points you raise don’t mean the current crop of EVs don’t work for “anyone”.

I have a Leaf in Minneapolis. It works just fine for our driving patterns, even in the winter.

This guy, apparently didn’t get a car that fits his needs. That is fine, it happens.
Just because it doesn’t work for him, or you, doesn’t mean there isn’t a market of drivers for whom it does work.

As for the superchargers, they work great with our other car, and the time to charge at them has not been an issue for us on our trips (about 7000 miles so far).

Likewise, the points you raise don’t mean the current crop of EVs don’t work for “anyone”

I agree. Even though I’m occasionally adventurous with cars, I nevertheles tend strongly toward the mainstream mentality.

I have a Leaf in Minneapolis. It works just fine for our driving patterns, even in the winter.

Great! I’d honest to God love to know more, especially numbers.

CP said: “But he thinks even a Tesla’s range is too short. That did surprise me a bit. I’ve thought a 65 kWh battery would be enough to get the commuter-car market going, but that might not be enough. Maybe I’ve been too generous when analyzing the mainstrea requirements for EVs.” That wasn’t his concern at all. He didn’t express himself very coherently. His objection is that he -never- wants to spending more time waiting at an EV charger than he would waiting for his gas guzzler to fill up. His specific concern, stated repeatedly, was an emergency trip where he would have to drive a long distance, and he wouldn’t be willing to put up with waiting to charge in such an emergency. As you noted, CP, car buying decisions are a mixture of rational and emotional. This guy is pretty ill-informed, and apparently it never occurred to him that he could simply rent a car if he needed to drive a long distance without having to wait periodically for a recharge. I love Enterprise for car rental — they will even come and pick you up! (Shameless plug for a company I have no financial interest in.) But… Read more »

Yeah, he garbled a few things, and kinda-sorta contradicted himself on the whole public charger issue. But I think he expressed himself reasonably well considering that he wasn’t reading from a script and was talking while driving. I don’t know that I could’ve done any better.

Just proves GM built the Volt for cold America.
Just need that price to get down to affordable.

I watched it. It sounds like he did not have a LEVEL-2 charger at his home. That is problem #1.

And I fully understand the frustration with a crappy charging infrastructure. Here in Texas half of our stations don’t work, or are blocked by gas cars it seems.

And I agree with his sentiment about the Volt. I highly suspect Nissan is going to be losing some customers to the 2016 Volt.

However, there are other solutions. If he got an L2 station put in his home, and had reliable and widespread DC fast charging in his area would probably go a long way to helping out his situation. Add another 50 miles of range to the Leaf and I think the problem would be solved.

But I think in the short term, the answer will be Volt or Tesla.

You need to replay it and listen more carefully. Yes, he talked about wanting more chargers. But he also made clear that even “superchargers” are too slow. And he said he wants even longer range than a Tesla. Not entirely consistent, but that’s customer behavior for you.

I strongly agree with him about even a “supercharger” being too slow. Those things will add 5 to 6 miles of range per minute of charging, according to Tesla. A gas station will add 85 to more than 150 miles of range per minute of filling, depending on your vehicle’s fuel economy.

That said, I think if his LEAF had a 65 kWh battery, he might not have been turning it in, especially if he’d also had a Level 2 charger at home.

He was confusing Supercharger with CHademo. But it does show his level of knowledge, and how that represents the general driving public and not an enthusiast.

Hell, even I get confused about that one. In any case, it’s just one more of many examples of an issue that EVs face: The EV experience is a lot fussier and a lot less reliable, the former due to the bits of extra knowledge required and the latter due to short and widely varying range.

If the 2016 Volt was a more normal sized car, it would be significant. But GM didn’t fix its primary flaw. The 2016 Volt is too small and cramped inside. The battery is placed in the most inconvenient place through the inside middle of the cabin. Low ceiling. Not practical for families.
Its ok as a 2 person coupe, but not a more general family car.

In truth the best solution is probably a EREV with an 80 mile AER. All problems solved. But it’s a more complicated solution and you have to pay for two propulsion systems.

Like this guy I have two reason I’d never buy another Leaf. Not the same reasons he gave. I don’t get range anxiety. I may not be able to go somewhere but that doesn’t make me nervous. No, my reasons are:

1. I’ve lost a third of my range because of battery fade

2. The build quality on the Leaf is atrocious

If you’ve lost a third of your capacity due to degradation, I have to wonder whether you’ve been topping it up all the time. This is a no-no with EVs, or so a lot of people (not to mention the owner’s manuals) say. Or maybe you’ve put a whole lot of miles on yours?

What he said in the video:

“In general, it has been a great car”.

But he is turning it in for 2 reasons:

” 1. At least in his area, the charging infrastruture has deterioated… Multiple (Free) DCFC were available. Sometimes I forgot to plug in and can get up and drive to a nearby DCFC and it doesn’t have an issue. But recently, it happened again and the DCFC station broke.”

” 2. Range Anxiety. 99.9% of the time, I didn’t have the range anxiety. I wouldn’t be able to go to my work and then go to my wife’s work and then go anywhere else. I just can’t just get into the car and go anywhere. It is really about emergency situation.”

Well, I would say “duh”. Lack of range and lack of infrastructure are always the two thing that limit the EV movement…

So, buy a Volt or BMW i3 REx then. He does mention the Gen 2 Volt…

BTW, I noticed how “loud” the background noise is on the hwy and he is driving a Jeep Cherokee instead…

LOL.

In my opinion we are starting to see the emergence of a range of different technologies/business models. We have 4 main versions coming out: Tesla – massive batteries, no range issues day to day “super chergers” for long trips. All at a price premium that I personally can’t see coming down to sub $30k anytime soon. Nissan – modest batteries on the limit of average driving combined with massive infrastructure roll out to give a pretty good option for town driving and for those who don’t travel massive distances. The cost is much lower and could get to well below $30k in the near future. Volt/i3 – reasonable battery range that can cope with 80% of needs and then reverts to a regular car that can use existing refuelling infrastructure. Half way house on cost, upfront costs less than a tesla but more than a leaf. Will cost more to maintain and run. Pip/outlander/ford – car costs similar to a top end hybrid and offers similar performance but gives a boost in mpg. I don’t see these as a progression or a spectrum rather, in my opinion, I see them as different segments just as we have petrol/diesel/LPG/ethanol/CNG in the… Read more »

As someone who takes frequent long trips, I think it’s ridiculous to call Tesla’s cars suitable for long-distance travel. Sure, it’s possible. Lots of things are possible if you’ll put up with the compromises. But mainstream drivers won’t do it.

Mainstream drivers don’t take lots of long trips. Most commute, do around town driving and the occasional road trip every few months.

Frequent road trip drivers are a minority. Driving a lot basically sucks for most people.

Well, put it this way. The average EV is driven 8,000 miles a year. The average ICEV is driven 13,000 miles a year. The difference is long commutes and vacations. If you don’t think people take road trips, go to Yellowstone in August.

Even if their road trips are only occasional, car buyers still want the flexibility. They want to be able to do this:

http://tinyurl.com/rdtrip1952

If EVangelists think they’ll hit the mass market with cars that don’t allow it, they’ll have a tough time. Even in the mainstream second car/commuter market, 85 miles of full range in ideal weather is a dog that won’t hunt.

Argue with that all you want, but it’s true. This is why the fella turned in his LEAF, and it’s why EVs will not escape their niche without a lot more range.

There is no such thing as “car buyers”. There are a bewildering array of car models, in all shapes, sizes, and colors, because people have vastly different needs and wants.

A lot of people take road trips, a lot never do. I’ve been driving for 30 years and I have never driven 400 miles without stopping, or even 300 for that matter. I have made less than 20 road trips, and of those the very longest were with rental cars since I had gotten to the starting point by airplane. For example the Grand Canyon from Phoenix, where my family and I had arrived by airplane and no, we never even considered getting there by car from New York). Sure, if you saw me in the parking lot you’d go “see, there is somebody who does road trips!”. But you’d be wrong, as both of our cars were placidly relaxing in their garages back home.

CP said:

“The average EV is driven 8,000 miles a year.”

That’s not the first time you’ve made that dubious claim. This time I decided to research some independent data.

If we consult the data for the GM Volt from voltstats.net, and take April 2013 as a typical month then multiply that by 12, then the range reported at voltstats.net comes to approx. 11,554 miles per year for the Volt. That’s a bit less than the USA national average of 12,000-15,000 miles per year, but it’s not -that- much less.

source:
http://www.voltstats.net/

Your 8000 miles per year claim seems to be cherry-picked data, not an average, and not representative of EVs as a whole. It certainly might be representative of cars owned by people who own multiple cars, and don’t use that one as their daily driver. For example, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Tesla Roadsters were driven, on average, 8000 miles per year or less.

A Volt is not an electric car. It’s a hybrid.

The Volt is not an electric car?

Gosh, that explains why it’s never mentioned in any article at InsideEVs, and isn’t listed on their Monthly Sales Scorecard.

Oh, wait…

Technically, a hybrid (without the plug) is still electric.

Your 8000 miles per year claim seems to be cherry-picked data, not an average, and not representative of EVs as a whole.

I know I’ve seen that number, but in some preliminary searching I could only fine 9,000 miles. So take 1,000 miles for now, EVangelist.

http://www.wsj.com/news/interactive/ECARSCHRTPRNT

And in case you want to call me a liar about the 13K miles for gas cars, it’s actually 13,476.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm

Now is there any other dilatory expletive deleted you want to toss around the room?

To be fair, I see the Leaf does come it at a figure somewhat less than the Volt: 9,697 miles/year. I would agree that, unlike the Volt, that is significantly less than the annual U.S. national average driving distance.

source:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18931

Still somewhat more than your asserted 8000 miles, though.

* * * * *

CP said:

“And in case you want to call me a liar…”

I’m sure I’ve never directed such language at you, CP. Nor anybody else posting comments to InsideEVs; not even the one or two frequently appearing Tesla-bashing trolls.

But if you don’t care for my observation that you’re using cherry-picked numbers… then you could always stop using cherry-picked numbers.

i haven’t used any “cherry picked numbers.” I don’t do that.

The WSJ material lists 9,000 miles for the average plug-in electric car. There is no break-out for the LEAF in any link I posted. I will also note that some people, including Inside EVs, lump BEVs and PHEVs together. Because PHEVs have engines and therefore longer ranges, you’d expect them to be driven farther. So, I think 8,000 miles for the average BEV is likely to be a good number. Another tidbit that’s a shade tangential, but not completely so because it plays into a point I’ve been making. At the link is a case study on two LEAFs bought for municipal use in Durham, N.C. Their LEAFs were driven an average of 4,900 miles (see p. 3). Now, it was only two cars, so I wouldn’t even think of generalizing that number. I only note it in passing. My point is elsewhere: The footnote at the bottom of thst page citing a study of how much municipal government cars are driven. It’s 9,500 miles a year. The reason I take note of this is because, by definition, municipal cars are used locally. This would logically account for the 9,500-mile average. Also by definition, because of their range, EVs other… Read more »

Forgot the link to the Durham, N.C. case study.

http://tinyurl.com/drncev

Actually, 5 versions if you count the Mirai – FCV for city dwellers who park on the street and don’t mind filling up in five minutes at a hydrogen station, because the alternative for them is DC quick charging for 30 minutes or hours on a L2 charger. While the cost of hydrogen is yet to be determined, charging an EV solely using public charging is currently an expensive proposition.

It’s hard for me to imagine that -any- for-profit EV charger -anywhere- would charge as much as paying for hydrogen fuel!

There’s a good reason that “fool cell” car makers are guaranteeing a year’s worth of free fuel. They’re hoping FCV buyers won’t notice how sky-high the fuel prices are! Reported to be around $14-15 for 1 kg of fuel (roughly equivalent to 1 gallon of gas) at the first public hydrogen fueling station in California, where it’s generated by electrolysis. Even at hydrogen fueling stations where the fuel is made by reforming natural gas, the price is said to be about $6-8.

My thoughts are that right now, a lot of 1st time Tesla buyers are hot for the new 70kwh car, without factoring in that the “old” 85 is still 15 more.

Range is still the best option to pay up for, in an EV. I also think M Hovis is correct, that EREV exists for guys like this Nissan driver.

My thoughts are that right now, a lot of 1st time Tesla buyers are hot for the new 70kwh car

On what base do your thoughts rest? Articles written by Tesla’s p.r. people, e-mailed to what’s left of the media, and republished under someone else’s name?

The reality is most people don’t need the maximum range of the 85D. They can easily live with the 70D range, and get in at the lower price point.

Many people would Love to own a Tesla, but there is that affordability issue. Just like the Volt.

The Tesla price drop opens up maybe 5 Times more buyers.

Very anecdotal, but a buddy of mine just ordered a 70D. He had been watching used prices on P85s before that.

He lives in the Denver area and all wheel drive, with the new lower price point, sold him. He never considered any other EV. lt is replacing his Toyota Tacoma.

I arranged his original Tesla test drive about 2 years ago, so it wasn’t totally out of the blue.

That’s a long video to simply state “range anxiety”. I’ll never get that 25 minutes of my life back.

Indeed, i want my 25 minutes back.

I sorta had it in a corner while I was doing other stuff. It was cool to see the Leaf be so well poised and quiet as he very casually drove close to 80 MPH on the highway. The biggest noise was road noise, motor noise was undetectable. He was completely confident in the car from a driving point of view, you could see that from his attitude through the video.

For people interested, but unfamiliar with EVs, this is actually a reassuring video so long as they feel good about the charging infrastructure available to them or the fit of their driving pattern to the limitations described.

As someone who is on my second LEAF, I agree with most of what being said here. I faced all the same issues, almost all of them related to limited range. And statements like “85 miles of range is sufficient for 95% of US population” is a bunch of crap. Everyone has a day here and there when we need to drive 100+ miles.

One thing I disagree with is his comments about Tesla. It’s 200+ mile range, plus Supercharger infrastructure allowing for 80% charge in 30 min would be sufficient for most of us. It takes me 10-15 min to gas up a car anyway, and there are only 3-4 days a year when I drive more that 200 miles, so that would not be a problem for me.

A gas pump delivers 5 gallons a minute. I timed it last week when I refueled my truck while on a road trip. (I have more than one vehicle, the EV being used strictly as a city runabout.)

At 5 gallons a minute, my truck adds 85 miles of range per minute. The average small car on the American road gets 28 mpg, which is 140 miles of added range per minute at the pump. Some cars get 40 mpg on the highway, which would be 200 miles of range per minute at the pump.

Tesla’s cars add 5 to 6 miles of range per minute at a “supercharger.” A LEAF will add about 22 miles of range per hour at a 30-amp Level 2 charger. There’s just no comparison. I think it’s flatly laughable when EV enthusiasts try to polish that particular turd.

I don’t own a Tesla (yet), but Indo have lots of L3 charging experience in a LEAF. Not driving it out of town, but crisscrossing Houston and needing extra range.

The one major difference with gas refueling compared to charging is the need to oversee the operation. Being able to start the charge, walk into a store or restaurant while charging make the events feel much shorter than breathing fumes and watching the $$$ meter roll.

You did leave out the fact that the Tesla Superchargers are no cost to charge (after you own the car of course).

You ever see those little notches on the gas pump that let you set it and then walk into the Quick Mart for a Coke and a bag of chips? You set it on a notch and it fills itself. Ain’t that clever?

Have you ever seen those fail? Gas pour out? Flames? It happens. I would never leave a gas nozzle unattended.

In >40 years and 500,000+ miles of driving, I’ve never seen either of those things happen, nor has anyone I know ever told me that (s)he’s seen it happen.

I’ve never seen a gas station catch fire but I have seen the release not working and fuel pouring out by the gallon, a scary sight. Seen that twice. Both times the gas station people looked unfazed, like they’d seen it before, and dealt with it.

I have lifetime around 150,000 miles in 30 years.

I’ve done one hell of a lot of driving all over the place. If I’d seen it or heard about it other than on a news program, I’d say so. One of the only complaints I have with my 2013 Ram 3500 truck is that the fuel line doesn’t match up well with a lot of pumps, so I have to do it manually a lot more often than I want to. This winds up extending some of my fill-ups when I can’t do other things while it’s filling.

I just haven’t even seen or heard of a gas pump that didn’t automatically disengage when the fuel reached the end of the nozzle. It’s a big country and we consume trillions of gallons of gas, and there are 150,000 or so gas stations, so I’m sure it’s happened to someone, somewhere.

22.4 Million hits on Google for “gas pump did not shut off”. Enough said. I would not leave it unattended, and don’t. Improbable?, yes. Impossible? Definitely not.

To be clear, I never said it was impossible. In fact, I said it was possible. But I’ve never seen it happen, nor have I heard of it happening to anyone I know.

Most gas cars take 4 minutes or less to refill. If you’re comparing 4 minutes of standing at the pump versus 30 minutes of hanging around a fuel station (for less range, mind you), there is no comparison.

All of the L3 chargers here (Houston) are at HEB grocery stores. I generally only needed about 10 minutes of 50 kW charging on the LEAF to add the range I needed.

Like I said above, this isn’t a road trip example, and I don’t have personal experience with it (yet).

Thanks, Spider Dan (btw, thst’s a good Jimmy Buffett tune). It’s pretty frustrating when the EVangelists play games with basic facts, isn’t it?

CP, you stated quite clearly that you frequently take long road trips. For most drivers, that’s an infrequent occurrence.

For most drivers, stopping for 30-45 minutes once or twice or perhaps even several times during the maybe 3-4 times a year they drive more than 100 miles in a day, would not be nearly as much inconvenience or waiting time as the time it takes to drive to the gas station and fill up once a week. Also, keep in mind that for the average American, any trip of more than 400 miles is more likely to be done by flying, not driving.

We accept that for you, CP, a BEV is not a good choice. But -you- need to accept that it’s you who is the outlier here. You simply don’t fit the profile of the average driver.

I have a BEV, and by that fact alone I’m not an average driver. But my total annual mileage in all cars (about 15,000 a year) is close enough to the national average for horseshoes. More of my miles are road trips, but the claim by EVangelists that hardly anyone takes road trips is just laughable. Believe me, it’d be great if that was true — I’d have a lot more places to myself.

Well, it all depends on what you have to do, i got an L2 at home, and it fits my needs, did he calculate his daily drive range before he leased.

I find it pretty sad because the Leaf gets bad press, when it’s a wonderful vehicle, i have had it for one year and it’s exceeded my expectations.

He mentions range anxiety, while driving on the highway at full speed, not having a L2 at home, did he ask his employer if he could charge? some of them are most willing to let employees charge.

Yes indeed in the winter we get a bit less range, but i calculated all my travels with both aspects.

Plain short, i saved 4000$ in fuel this year, and i’m glad that i bought the Leaf.

And there are many many more out there that an 80 mile BEV will be perfect for. And even more that a 150-200 mile BEV will match. Equally so, there are going to be those like CP and Blaylock whose lifestyle it does not fit. Fortunately for them, we already have the match in the Volt EREV. This is a 20 year journey. I am always amazed at how good the first gen EV turned out. Like you, I find them to be the best auto I have owned to date in my 30+ years of driving. The 2nd gen Volt, LEAF, Energi, i3, etc are going to make even larger strides.

In all honesty, i got the pleasure of driving back while driving the leaf, seriously, this car is a pleasure to drive.

My BEV fits my life just fine, but it was never a mainstream purchase for me — and I wouldn’t have bought it had I not gotten such a great deal as a consequence of Think’s bankruptcy, which made mine available for more than half off of list before the tax credit.

Saved $4,000 in fuel in a year? You drive 80,000 miles a year or something?

When people make those outlandish claims, it turns out that either a) they’re simply making it up, or b) they are comparing their EV to some gigantic old gas hog that isn’t comparable.

Had a Jeep liberty that drank 18 liters per 100km.

Calculate it all you want.

From his use of units, it sounds like a Europe driver. $4k would be pretty easy to save with their fuel prices.

I did the conversions, and his jeep got 13 mpg. I’m guessing he’s a Canadian, but let’s play as if he’s a Brit paying $7 a gallon and $0.20 per kWh. (I just researched these prices right now.) In a LEAF, he’d save $0.43 per mile driven when compared with that Jeep. To save $4,000, he’d need to drive 9,300 miles. I will add that the LEAF-Jeep comparison is completely faulty from the start, because these are simply not comparable vehicles in any sense. To return to the British example, I will cite my trip there 2 years ago during which I rented a Nissan Juke crossover that got 30 mpg, engines being smaller in Europe. Comparing a LEAF to a Juke, he’d need to drive 24,000 miles to save $4,000. But even that’s not a fair comparison, because a Juke is bigger than a LEAF. The right comparison would be to a compact sedan, which in the U.K. will get 35-40 mpg. In fact, in that part of the world there are lots more diesels, which do even better. But let’s stick to petrol, shall we? At 37.5 mpg in a UK compact sedan, he’d save $0.10 per mile… Read more »

pretty sure no one wants an ugly limited mile range car

true but since most of us don’t have a spare $50k to $100k kicking around our alternatives are:

1 – Have a car with an engine
2 – Walk to the bus stop

If they stop making ugly affordable EV’s with limited range I’ll be going back to walking. I’d drive a hot pink Leaf with Bunny ears if they knocked $10k off the price.

Don’t feed the troll.

I’m learning a lot from the posters about the video quicker than watching the video.

***Level 3 charging infrastructure for trips greater than 40 miles is important to me. …and I’d be willing to pay long as its cost is not more than gas AND its sourced by renewables.

Level 2 charging, its nice, but Level 1 normally works well enough for me for my normal commute and working 2 days a week from home.

btw… charging at a Level 3 actually took me 10 minutes to fill up at a dealership. I barely had time to get online to check out things before I was ready to go again.

…but having said that, no, my i-miev does not use fossil fuels for instant energy and ‘unlimited’ distance, but its what I have available that allows me to meet my travel and life requirements.

No L2 at his home or he could have charged at home and called in 1 hour late, go to work, and charge on the way home not taking 3 hours time off from work.

Even when he did L2 at the Nissan dealer he stayed there for 3 hours instead of just getting 1 hour and charging again on the way home.

He says he isn’t an aggressive driver but does ~80 mph passing traffic on the interstate.

It is nice that he acknowledges the linear acceleration and the reliability but he apparently drove the car for 2 years and never figured out how much more useful his car would be if he put a L2 in his garage or on the side of his house.

80 mph on the interstate is NOT aggressive. I always drive 10mph over the limit, which is usually the flow of traffic, and in places where the speed limit is 70mph, that makes 80mph normal.

Here in Washington State, the speed limit on I-5 between Olympia and Portland is 70 mph. I set the cruise control at 75, and will occasionally pass at 80+. This is what people do. Nothing strange in the least.

I wouldn’t call 80 aggressive (and to be fair he was maxing out a 77 or 78), but I’d call it a bit too fast. 70 to 75 is much safer. Things happen very quickly above 80. People who drive at that speed need to look at some crash tests, all done at 40. 80 means four times the energy of those impacts.

Last December I had my giganto pickup up to 105 mph, at which point the electronic limited kicked in. Sunny day, unseasonably warm, dry pavement. I kept thinking that the poor coyote who thought he might cross the road would be nothing but fur and gristle on my grille guard.

Texas speed limits go up to 85. The point is every driver has a different situation.

Interesting. I think the guy, who is in Georgia, got the Leaf because of the incentives in that state. He never says that, but he’s clearly not an EV guy: He replaced the Leaf with a Grand Cherokee.

This also explains why he never got a level 2 charger at home.

So he’s not a good early adopter in that sense, and this speaks to a disadvantage with too many incentives. You pull in people who maybe you shouldn’t.

But he does point out something important: The charging infrastructure has deteriorated over the past two years. In EV heavy Georgia. That’s a problem Nissan should not have let happen in that state, especially when Ghosn always makes a big deal about infrastructure.

He replaced the Leaf with a Grand Cherokee.

OH WOW!

I don’t find anything strange about that.

Sorry to hear that.

Yeah, now that gas is cheap!

What we are looking at here is a price-sensitive (i.e. cheap) car buyer. He probably got the Leaf because it was cheap to Lease and to drive. Now with low gas prices he gets the SUV. Gas goes back up, he’d probably lease a Volt.

Wasn’t there an news story a couple of weeks ago that said lower gas prices were resulting in EV and hybrid drivers trading in their EVs/hybids for SUVs. Most everybody here said that it was the hybrid drivers that were switching to SUVs, and that low gas prices had no effect on EV drivers and EV drivers were sticking with EV vehicles.

This tells us that ICEVs are buried deep in the American lizard brain, and that mere equivalence won’t be enough to dislodge that.

I think that s the point. What would happen if a non Ev guy had a Leaf? As to charging stations not being operational… quite scary… Are we losing this war? Is support for Evs quietly fading away? Despite not having an Ev I know most charging stations in my country, Portugal, are in ruins.Yes, being a bit dramatic here. Still… If you had asked me 3 years ago, well, this is not what I had imagined

It occurs to me that Portugal’s charging stations (like an increasing share of the ones here) are “in ruins” because hardly anyone cares to use them anyway, on account of how slow they are. What do you think? I’ve used public chargers three times — purely as an experiment, just after I bought the car.

I listened until I got bored. The complaints:

1. You need to have a level 2 charger at home.

2. He appears to be using it as his sole car.

3. There is not enough working public chargers.

First, duh. There’s a reason Nissan dealers are offering free chargers.

Second, no, this is not meant to be your ONLY car. Even Tesla drivers don’t do that.

Finally, outside of workplace charging (my workplace doesn’t have one), I use a public charger perhaps 1-2 times per year.

So this is all you have to do to be front page news here? Make a video?

If that’s all you took away, well, I guess there’s no point in trying to tell you anything more.

A Tesla can easily be your only car. A Leaf can too, but that’s only if you use your car in a limited way, which is still true for maybe 30% of car buyers in the US.

A Tesla can “easily be your only car” if you’re rich.

Well, yeah, obviously. The Model III should fix that problem.

We’ll see. Tesla has sold two cars now, and each one of them has been more expensive than the company originally promised, not to mention delivered late. The Model 3 will be late too (S.O.P. in Silicon Valley, where Tesla basically lives, the “gigafactory” notwithstanding), and I’m betting that the sticker price with the typical options will be well over $40,000.

The Model 3 is not going to be the car for everyman.

No, it won’t. But it will be the car for a lot more people than the S. It’s for the kind of person who would buy a BMW 3 series, not for the Corolla crowd. They are going to need a fourth generation platform for that.

Hmm. They’ll sell Model 3s to some Silicon Valley “business development” types, but I don’t think it’s a very deep pool. We’ll see.

If the model 3 and the Bolt take off, imagine the drop in gas prices.

New cars in general are not for the “everyman”, used cars are a much more reasonable option.

That said, going from an Average Selling Price (ASP) on the Model S of ~$100k to ~$50k on Model 3 would vastly grow demand. I don’t think anyone is expecting a fully loaded Model 3 to cost $35k.

They are going to be at a disadvantage if they burn through their 200k vehicles for the US credit before that time. So I wouldn’t factor in the $7500 credit into the Model 3 price.

The keys for Tesla is to deliver 200+ EPA mile range and all of the software tech that is on the Model S (touch screen UI, AutoPilot, remote software updates, etc.). And to deliver it in volume by 2018 (in my mind).

I’ve had my 2012 Nissan leaf for almost 3 years. At the end of my lease I will be turning it in. I will get a 2016 Chevy volt. My experience was very similar to Mike’s, but I do have a L2 charger in my driveway. One cold winter I got 48 miles on a full charge. The battery electric car is not for every one at this time in history. I know that is hard for some EV enthusiast here to accept, but that is the truth.

Couldn’t possibly agree more.

You mean disagree. Everyone should be driving trucks.

If you posted something like this about a Volt all sorts of people would get upset and call this site anti-Volt and pro-LEAF.

I have yet to see much in the way of pro-LEAF stories here, but there is certainly resentment from early LEAF owners who got stuck with battery degradation and purposely over optimistic claims of range and battery longevity from Nissan. Nissan hasn’t treated those people well either.

How about doing something really different and taking it for what it is, a mainstream driver’s candid and factual assessment? I realize that we live in an increasingly tribal world full of media spin, but the video is straightforward and honest. Who knew?!

This video is representative of a large portion of potential customers. Nissan missed a chance to get a loyal fan with this one.

Sad, because it sounds like he liked the car except for the range/charging issues.

Have to wonder about the wisdom of posting this particular video so prominently on InsideEVs.

It will serve to harm the entire EV movement. Provides proof to naysayers that EVs won’t work. Stokes the flames of gas hybrid (Volt) vs. BEV.

Very easy to conclude from this that BEVs won’t work and the only possible alternative is a gas hybrid.

Very discouraging. Expect to see it on Fox, not InsideEVs.

On the other hand, any time a well-intentioned BEV advocate convinces somebody to buy a Leaf that doesn’t fit their lifestyle, that’s do a very big disservice to the cause. I once tried to tell a guy here in Wisconsin that a Leaf wouldn’t be good for his 40 mile commute because he would get 45 miles in very cold weather in the first year, BEFORE the battery degraded. Others convinced him that it would be a great choice. That poor schlub probably traded in after his first or second scare. Had the EV community been a little more realistic in their expectation setting, he would have been in a Volt, or waited a few years for something more appropriate. Not everybody has a 20 mile commute in coastal weather.

You did the right thing. A guy with a 40 mile commute in Wisconsin should not buy a Leaf. If he can’t afford a Model S, he should buy a Volt or perhaps an i3 REx. Definitely not a Leaf, and not even an electric Soul.

Rule of thumb: Your one-way commute distance should be 40% of your winter range. I’m guessing 50 miles winter range in WI, so 20 mile commute.

There is no “cause.” They’re just cars that have captured the interest of our Inner Nerds.

There is never anything wrong with a reality check.

Come on…what you suggest here is some kind of censorship. This site is interesting because it is not some sort of EV sect. It is open minded, actually often much more than its followers.

Seems that way to me. I think you never lose if you stick with facts.

LEAF owners are living on the edge, yes. I can’t believe he never got an L2. All e-cars should ship with L2 cords that plug into standard outlets.

Again. All e-cars should ship with L2 cords that plug into standard outlets. All e-cars should ship with L2 cords that plug into standard outlets. All e-cars should ship with L2 cords that plug into standard outlets. All e-cars should ship with L2 cords that plug into standard outlets.

That isn’t electrically possible in the US. We are sadly stuck with 110v / 12 amp standard circuits in our homes and businesses.

Most 110/120v circuits are 20 amps. Most houses have at least one, and usually more than one, 240v/30 amp circuit for the clothes dryer and the dishwasher.

Actually Dishwashers in the states are getting more and more whimpy, and of course the lack of phosphates in the detergents are exacerbating the problem. Since the detergents currently don’t work well at all, the only thing that helps clean the dishes is hot water during the wash cycle. I have a 37 year old maytag in my ‘new (to me) house’,(that I keep repairing) that was the only ‘added’ dishwasher to the kitchen, and it draws 13 amps. New dishwashers I’ve seen in the big box stores (and I’ve checked ALL of them) never draw even 1000 watts.. Wimpy pump motors and wimpy heating elements. My pump motor in my dishwasher sounds as though its really working, (1/3 horsepower), where the new models just can’t be even 1/4, not when they draw 1.8 amps, unless of course they have nearly 100% efficiency, which, in a dishwasher is pointless since you want the heat. The only home dishwasher I’ve ever seen running on 240 (In the NA market that is), was the 1967 Lady Kenmore (Sears – Whirlpool, or possibly KitchenAid, back when they were Hobart and not Whirlpool), that had a 180 degree wash cycle and a 2500 watt… Read more »

True enough about a dishwasher. As soon I clicked “Post Comment” I had second thoughts about that example. So this time, I looked at my electrical panel. 240v stuff that’s pretty common includes an electric dryer and an electric range. My point is that 240v service isn’t exotic.

VBy the way, I suspect Tesla’s reference to 50 amp service was actually about hot tubs. I’ve got one, and it uses a 50 amp circuit. I bet Tesla’s p.r. people told them not to mention hot tubs because of how it would come across in the media.

Wow, 134 comments! Well, let me put down my own reactions before reading what everybody else had to say. 1. Altho I understand why people feel the urge to make videos like this and upload them to YouTube, it amazes me that anyone would actually -link- to one. The speaker didn’t have his thoughts coherently organized, he repeated himself almost endlessly, and in general I would -never- recommend this to anyone. It really astonishes me that InsideEVs would create an article around this. 2. The guy has nearly all his figures wrong. Did he give even one number that was actually correct? Again, I am astonished that InsideEVs would link to a video made by someone so poorly informed. 3. Okay, if you set aside everything I’ve said in points #1 and #2, what he says is very much to the point. He has pretty well summarized the limitations of BEVs in this “early adopter” stage of the tech, and why there is only 1% market penetration of plug-in EVs. And for someone who is otherwise so ill-informed, he has done a surprisingly good job of outlining the improvements the tech needs before the average person will consider a BEV… Read more »

In your case, it would be more rational to own a Volt. If you can do almost all of your driving on electric, and just do a few miles on gasoline, then you will be driving more total EV miles than if you rented an ICE a couple times a month, because on those longer trips when your needed an ICE you would be getting 0 EV miles instead of 38, offsetting the few miles here and there that you would be putting on your gas engine. All while needing only one car instead of two. The pursuit of “purity” when it comes to BEV vs EREV leads many people to make irrational choices.

I find your response rather strange, John. It’s like you read someone else’s post and hit the “reply” button on my post by mistake.

1. I certainly am not advocating renting a gas guzzler twice a month! Someone else here posted that the average driver only goes on “road trips” about 3-4 times a year. I don’t know what the national average is, but that sounds about right to me.

2. I clearly stated that the Volt’s mere approx. 40 mile all-electric range (actually 38) is not sufficient for my needs. I don’t see how I can make it any clearer than that. And it’s not just me, either:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079936_forget-range-anxiety-chevy-volt-owners-have-gas-anxiety

* * * * *

John Hansen said:

“The pursuit of ‘purity’ when it comes to BEV vs EREV leads many people to make irrational choices.”

Rather odd you’d lay that charge at my feet, when I’ve said much the same thing in this very comment thread.

If you have a 60-mile roundtrip to talk to God, Satan, to the Holy Dice, and you insist on doing this every week (? of the year on batteries, then you’d better dig deep because you need a Tesla. And if you make that choice, some deity might later inquire about your priorities.

Leaf is the wrong car for this guy, but there are plenty of us that find it to be the right car. The best fit is to use the Leaf as the primary car (I use it for 80% of the miles driven per year) with a backup ICE vehicle for long trips.

Leaf is the wrong car for this guy, but there are plenty of us that find it to be the right car.

It might be worth noting that Nissan has sold 68,000 LEAFs, compared with sales of 126,000 Yugo sales during their peak 30 years ago.

I am sure the leaf would outsell if it was one if the cheapest cars available. At least you don’t have to push start it and hope it will run that day.

My point is that the best-selling EV is barely a blip on the sales radar. This carries a bunch of implications.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Yes and no. EVs sell much worse than even those nasty Yugos. That’s my point. Oh, and apples and oranges are both fruit. 🙂

p.s.: I use my Ev for 30% of my miles driven, and my ICE pickup for the other 70%.

The Leaf simply did not meet this guy’s requirements to be his only car. In my situation, I can drive to work, take a long lunch with my wife near her office, drive back to my office and still make it home easily in a Leaf. I don’t drive a Leaf, but my situation would allow for it with no regrets. I chose my first EV based on our weekend requirements. We drive from Silicon Valley to San Francisco and back monthly on the weekends. None of the 80-something mile EVs can do that with only home charging. That is why I got a RAV4 EV. It has a real world minimum 100 mile range. Do I use that range every day? Absolutely not. However, it does allow for many “emergency” cases that the guy in the video alluded to. People need to carefully consider their requirements and choose an appropriate vehicle. As people said in the comments above, encouraging people in borderline situations to get an EV is really not a good idea. Public charging has to be fast, ubiquitous, and reliable for EVs to get above 10% market penetration. I hope we get there soon.

The idea that someone other than a person wuth an outlier sort of driving requirement would have to even think about their daily city mileage as part of an ownership decision tells you that sub-Tesla EVs are not ready for the mass market.

“Mike I” said:

“People need to carefully consider their requirements and choose an appropriate vehicle. As people said in the comments above, encouraging people in borderline situations to get an EV is really not a good idea. Public charging has to be fast, ubiquitous, and reliable for EVs to get above 10% market penetration. I hope we get there soon.”

Now there is a post which deserves to be bronzed!

I think if there is anything useful to be gotten from this video, it’s that sometimes people buy a car that turns out to be a poor fit for their needs. That can happen with EVs as well as any other type of passenger vehicle.

Alonzo Perez said, “Rule of thumb: Your one-way commute distance should be 40% of your winter range. I’m guessing 50 miles winter range in WI, so 20 mile commute.”
What you’re saying is someone should not buy a Nissan leaf if their daily one-way commute is more than 20 miles. Think about that! Anyone who thinks at this point in history the Nissan leaf or any BEV with similar range is ready for adoption by the general public is unrealistic and delusional.

He’s absolutely correct about that 20 miles, in my opinion — and more like 15 miles if it’s a Chicago LEAF. The cold-winter range of a LEAF on 80% of the battery will be about 35 miles. If this is going to be your only car, meaning that you’ve got to drive it on that January morning when it’s -10, that sled will not get very far.

That’s not quite what I said. I said 20 miles for >Wisconsin<.

If you live in California the rule of thumb yields more like 30 miles, since your winter range will be almost the same as your summer range.

Actually, it’s not even a bad rule for Virginia, where I get at most 50 miles on an 80% charge even on 30-40 degree days for most of the winter. Since I don’t line an a table-top flat area, I never get the most favorable range. Fortunately, it still meets my needs 97% (29 out of 30 days) of the time. That’s why I have to keep my ’03 Prius. I ordered my Leaf back when they were still touting the 100-mile range and battery degradation was an unknown. Also, the Volt wasn’t available here. I still purchased my ’12 Leaf at lease end because of the $5K discount(missed the $6K by that much!). A 50-mile AER Volt would give AER 97% of the time

opps! line=live in

Oh, for goodness sake! opps=oops

I agree with your statement that an EV driver needs to consider their needs before purchase, but that is the crux of the problem. It is considerations ICE purchasers don’t even consider.

Unfortunately most of the country only has the choices of LEAF, Volt, or Model S right now (plus the Ford Energi’s). More choices in form factors, range, and prices are badly needed (and coming).

This guy traded his EV for a Jeep Cherokee. SUVs are selling really well right now, thanks to the artificially low gas prices. If OPAC does not succeed in killing off EVs, guess what this guy will do? Trade off the Cherokee for something more efficient? Who would want to keep more money in their bank account?

It’s still a Jeep, sure towing, but Wow is he going to take a Bath on Gas, and Repair bills.

Blunder.
Probably the worst decision he’s ever made in his life.

Cherokees get surprisingly good gas mileage, at least if you don’t get the V-8. Worst case, he’d pay $1,500 to $2,000 a year in extra fuel costs, but he’ll probably be closer to $1,000. As for repairs, they’ll be covered under warranty except for the oil changes.

The Shell Oil exec that predicted $5 a gallon and came close at near five, is predicting $6 a gallon in a year. Even if it gets into $5 a gallon, he is going to need to be rich to drive the Jeep as freely as he believes it will provide … or sacrifice a lot to feed the beast.

This all tells us one thing, we should be a bit more cautious on this site when commenting that mainstream car makers will likely desapear like dinosaurs for not adapting quickly enough to the EV revolution. Except for Toyota which makes a dangerous gamble with hydrogen fuel cells, my opinion is that the many others, (GM, Nissan, VW, BMW) do have a “normal” (profit based) attitude towards EV’s, I mean going there slowly & cautiously. Tesla on its side is a wonderful & daring start up but we should NOT despise other car markers for being slow into EV, nevertheless how frustrating it is for us.

I give Nissan, in particular, a lot of credit for hanging in there. I’d be shocked if they’re not losing money on every LEAF, given the degree of subsidy they give leases. But these things won’t be mainstream until batteries get much, much cheaper and more energy-dense.

I doubt lithium chemistry will do it, but I understand that what I don’t know about chemistry fills books.

I’m amazed. An article from a user speaking out against replacing a BEV with another one…

I’m surprised “you know who” didn’t drop by to say “I told you so”.

WAIT What did he buy? A Jeep, for towing?

Sure, you can make up a lot of poor excuses to Justify buying a Jeep, but he stepped Way Down to get into America’s nearly worst vehicle on the road.

Kind of loses credibility.

Jeep sold nearly 700,000 units in 2014.

http://tinyurl.com/jeepsls

Nissan sold 30,000 LEAFs in 2014.

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

I did not read all of the comments (so sorry if it was already mentioned) – but one factor that will greatly influence me is GA replaced the $5000 EV CREDIT with an annual $200 fee to make up for the lack of gas tax collected by EV drivers. This pretty much wipes all the savings most of the early EV adopters experienced in the state. Watch GA quickly fall to near the bottom of the EV list after July when this takes place.

Washington State’s EV fee is $100 a year. I’ve analyzed that in detail, and even that much is grossly unfair. It amounts to 37% of the cost of the electricity I put into my EV, compared to 10% for the gas tax on an ICEV that gets less than one-third the equivalent gas mileage.

Combine that tax with the implicit cost of battery degradation, and at current gas prices my EV costs 10 cents a mile compared to 12 cents a mile for an equivalent ICEV that has no range issues.

Seems to me there is a definite need for security cameras near charging stations to monitor them 24/7 so that WHEN vandalism happens, the person(s) who damage them can be caught and prosecuted. That security system would also be very helpful for the people who are sitting there while their vehicle charges.

Until that happens, every yahoo having an Anti-EV moment can chip away at the infrastructure that is being very slowly rolled out. I’m certain profitability is going to happen eventually on public EVSE equipment usage. Until then, the people / businesses who sponsor public EVSE, especially DC FC, are not likely to be able to afford to continuously monitor and repair what scumbags can destroy in a few minutes time. Maybe have some service like ADT has for homes to monitor these sites 24/7 for a small monthly fee. A few people prosecuted would go a long way to make this sort of vandalism less likely and infrastructure more reliable.

Notice the beard hat and glasses? Clearly he doesn’t want to be recognised. Camera set up was professional too.

I’m calling BS also.

You’re kidding, right? A conspiracy? Really? I’ve got a beard and I drive with a hat and sun glasses on. Want to know why? Because: 1) I don’t feel like shaving. 2) I’m bald. 3) It’s sunny outside. I also have a dashcam. It doesn’t take a lot to make professional looking video these days. All of his arguments were valid. 1) Charging infrastructure sucks. 2) It’s really difficult to own an EV in a one-vehicle household. I did it for about a year. I managed, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t suck. 3) It takes too long to recharge absent a quick charger. See #1. I think his experiences would have been a lot better if he had L2 at home, but I agree with him overall. It’s difficult to rely solely on an EV with limited range and slow recharge time. A PHEV like the Volt would probably work well for this guy. Either that, or keep a cheap gas car around for backup. With that said, 99% of my driving over the last 3 years has been in the LEAF. I really like the car, and I think it works out well for me. Lately, I’ve been… Read more »

Not only that, but did you see that black helicopter?!

I just realised that the video was scripted also.

But why?
And why is the guy driving the car so annoying?

He’s “folksy”. Look, it could be legit, or not. If not, then this is possibly meant to push the Volt, or it’s simply meant to push people away from pure EVs. Even then, it does not need to be a vast conspiracy. The guy’s cousin could be a Chevy dealer.

The video isn’t libelous or anything. It doesn’t try to render the Leaf as unsafe, for example. If the EV community can’t handle a video like this without showing tinfoil, then its too thin skinned. I’m not saying it absolutely is legit, we don’t know. But I am saying not to spend any time worrying about that, because it IS a video that a real life Leaf owner could have put together.

This is not a fake video. Here is his very positive review of the LEAF shortly after leasing it 2 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7abI3R_kVE&feature=iv&src_vid=RtMez3e4VBc&annotation_id=annotation_3948655427

The guy has an entire youtube channel with review of other stuff, vacation videos, etc.

It just sounds like his love for the LEAF faded over the 2 years, mostly based around range and charging infrastructure.

For an EV, it is so noisy on the road, I quit listening to his self-righteous comments, which could not be understood at 77 MPH – I hope he had a window down, but if you are taking it back to the dealer to turn it in, why not run the AC, assuming the dealer is within range.

I have 41,101 EV miles on my Volt – miles where the engine never came on, and with no battery range degradation (it reduces in the winter and goes back up in the spring). Plus I have many trips, including driving 1,065 miles in one day – try that in a Leaf.

Sounds like zero planning before he got the Leaf as to what kind of vehicle was needed – it certainly doesn’t tow. How about one SUV and a 2015 Volt – you can get a good price or lease on one right now.

241 comments? Woah. Someone big must have linked to you, insideevs! Congrats.

I must say, I am a bit surprised how well pure EVs have done compared to PHEVs. I thought PHEVs would be much bigger than pure EVs due to the issues this person describes.

(And that is despite being a pure-EV person myself . . . but I realize I’m out of the norm in being fine with dealing with the short-range pure-EV limitations.)

right now the market for *both* BEVs and PHEVs is quite small; its just that (in my opinion) the BEV is a lot closer to maximizing its market potential than is the PHEV.

i think that part of the problem with the Volt is that when people thought of the Volt as an “electric vehicle” they thought of it as being the same as BEVs like the Leaf. so when they saw that the Leaf had more EV range, it seemed like the Leaf was a better choice. in the second generation of *EVs i think that consumers will be a bit more educated on the differences.

as you saw in this video, the person came to the conclusion that PHEVs offer more flexibility than do BEVs. some commenters have attempted to limit this to being a mere issue of proving more range, but as the speaker in the video noted, there is no BEV that can provide a 100% solution. as he mentioned, even though he was generally able to work with the Leaf, the limitations, which occur in the unanticipated circumstances, would always sit in the back of his mind.

I share Speculawyer’s shock at the shear volume of comments in just a day! Eric or Jay, any thoughts on the high traffic volume? As for the video? TL:DW. Presumably his issues, in a nut shell, were with the range limitations and charging infrastructure. I have those issues as well but only the range was the major contributor to not keeping the Leaf (we’re going one car, and a Leaf for a one car family won’t cut it). I wouldn’t say that I’ll never get another Leaf, but with the Model III coming out soon and PHEV hybrids like the Outlander coming out, my priorities have shifted and the Leaf is now low on the scale of considerations. The thing to keep in mind is that the range limitations will take care of itself in a couple of years and will help on the charging infrastructure. You’ll see more long range EVs (I think 150 – 250 miles is adequate, especially in California where the HSR is being built) and more PHEVs for folks not quite ready to jump on the BEV bandwagon (or who want a long range travel/road trip car in addition to a BEV). The infrastructure? Where… Read more »

Well you had 89 comments from one guy. That has to be an IEV record.

And basically a troll. That does to keep the comments rolling in.

Agreed, he does not share the mainstream EV enthousiast point of view, obviously a troll. He probably doesn’t even have his people EV’s republic party membership card.

People have different opinions and I get that. But repeated posts of overly inflammatory views simply done to get a rise out of people is trolling and there has been some of that. I don’t think he’s huge intentional troll but much of the snark is offputting. Perhaps it comes from everyone ganging up on him.

CP made is point very clearly in a long 7 bullet points comment. A troll would just write a few obnoxious lines. Moreover he is a EV driver (he owns a think). I rather think he is an early adopter who is rather frustrated as how slowly thing goes for EV’s (mainly due to poor charging infrastructure) and wants to shake us in realizing this (thus sometimes a bit extreme) . I would rather describe what he writes mostly as the “inconvenient truth”.

The only “frustration” I have is with EVangelists who misrepresent and misstate facts about these vehicles. Just tell it straight, and I’m fine.

To me, a conversation about EVs really ought to be about batteries. That’s what I say to non-EV owners who ask me about them. My line is this: “It’s all about the batteries. That’s it.”

How big? How costly? How quick to refill?

Past that, it becomes a comparison game. The bogey is the ICEV, and it’s very tough competition. ICEVs are cheap, easy, reliable, and flexible.

I have little patience with the virtue side of it, and no patience with shading of the truth. As for charging infrastructure, until refill rates get a whole lots faster, I think it’s barely relevant at all. Way, way, waaaaaaay too much gets made of it at this point.

Indeed. There is a simple mental exercice to realize this. Let us imagine it the otherway around. We would all be driving electric cars and then a start up would come with a much cheaper car one could refill in a matter of seconds with a widely available & rather cheap liquid. It would become the hotest thing around in a matter of months. It would get more hype than Tesla. I believe EV’s are the future but it will take much time. The environmental issue, lets face it, most users do not care.

I actually don’t think that is the case. I actually think it is more complex than that. I know more than a few “greenies” who do not own EVs or PHEVs and plenty of “lay” people who would love to own an EV. I think the problem is multifaceted. Let’s face it, EVs are expensive to the average person, and there is a bit of a learning curve. Add to that the fact that you would need to add a $2000+ accessory to your garage to feed it (yes, I know, they aren’t really that expensive, but tell that to the “average person”) and it is a wholesale deviation from what you’ve been doing your whole life. And I’m pretty sure I’ve only just scratched the surface of the challenges. We will get there. More of us will buy EVs, the costs will go down, the “average person” will learn from their early adopter or mid-range adopter friends and family and we will make the transition. I do believe PHEVs/EREVs like the Volt will get us there. It offers a compromise and is a gateway drug to BEVs. It took hybrids over a decade to reach mainstream status. I know… Read more »

*no help…

Add to that the fact that you would need to add a $2000+ accessory to your garage to feed it

A couple grand isn’t too far off if someone’s got to run 240v to the garage — which is just about everyone. I’ve owned three houses, and not a one of ’em came equipped with 240v to the garage. Running 240v is not a job for a typical homeowner.

p.s.: Without getting into the merits of the climate change issue, I’ll say this: Hardly anyone gives a damn. Climate change consistently ranks at or near the bottom of the problem list in polling. Mainstream buyers aren’t going to buy an EV for that reason, period.

Good point in the need for a 240V line. I actually installed a NEMA 14-30 in my garage. One of the two major reasons was so that if I were to sell my house later, I can advertise it as a handy outlet if someone had or wanted to get a welder (the other reason is Tesla compatibility).

As for “public opinion” on CC, I actually don’t give a rats a$$ about polls. If I actually cared what the polls say, then I’d be a democrat.

You missed my point about polls. Hardly anyone will buy a battery powered car to save the earth from climate change.

That’s a lot of comments from one person. Who was it? Was it MAM? I see quite a few from that individual.

Never mind, I figured it out. 🙂

This is a Georgia leasor. Georgia’s EV credit made it basically free to lease a LEAF. Of course they got a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon who are more like mainstream drivers, not the early adopters most EV drivers are.

And a mainstream driver is going to be disappointed with EV reality. It’s great, if you have L2 charging at home, to just plug in at home and not worry about a gas station. But except for that every thing else is a compromise – short range, slower to charge than to pump gas, unreliable EVSE infrastructure.

Nothing surprising about this video.

The pickup truck is out of gas and he’s waiting for the car to charge up. Plenty of time to post. I hope the 25 minute video is not typical of people’s attitude, I know its not here in Buffalo since I rarely if ever even see a Leaf since the car as currently constituted isn’t good for our weather… The Nissan dealerships having a hundred new cars have 2 or 3 leaf’s out in the back lot, and never on the showroom floor. Now In Georgia, what with all the previous incentives for EV’s, I’m sure zillions bought them. And if some over-zealous salesman told prospective customers they are the perfect car for every use, then there are going to be many who will be disappointed. I remember when the Leaf initially was released they wouldn’t even SELL you one unless you agreed to a 220 docking station. I guess they got too many hate emails from condo and apartment dwellers who could make arrangements for 110 but would never agree to a 220 set up. But then this change of policy lets salesmen say “Its just like charging your cell phone.” Except, maybe not. And you’ll still get… Read more »

Well, Buffalo is pretty cold and we all know EVs don’t do that well in the cold. I think cold areas will be (understandably) much slower to adopt EVs.

I also think that all the carmakers need to do a better job on thermal management systems for batteries (even Tesla).

The sacrifices we early adopters make for the pleasure of driving an electric vehicle are no surprise to us, but to the average person (like mike) they are major hurdles that have to be overcome it electric vehicles will replace the internal combustion engines. In my eyes Mike’s story is very telling. Sometimes we EV enthusiasts get wrapped up in our own world, we really don’t see the bigger picture. Some of us are trying to discredit this guy and we are not listening.

Agreed. Currently there are over 300,000 EVs on US roads and growing. The early adopters are made up of all kinds, but most all come to this site to share knowledge and experiences to advance the development of EVs. The articles and the stories are not always positive, but the motive is always to advance the development. With the 300,000 making up less than 1% of drivers, we know there are 100x that could successfully operate an EV today, and we obsess on getting those butts in a seat “as we should”. This video reminds us that there are easily 100x that are not ready. We should always be mindful of that group, and I think in general, this community does everything to help a person select the right car. I am very proud, particularly of the LEAF owners here, that constantly help others make the right choices which are not always the leading selling LEAF model, which has been a phenomenal leader in the advancement of EVs. I hired well over 50 engineers in my day. The job that we provided allowed them to work with cutting edge technology everyday (an engineer’s dream). They also worked in an environment… Read more »

I often sit down to give this advice. Never lie. Never exaggerate.

This is excellent advice for everyone other than a politician or someone going into the advertising business. I am retired from two separate careers where lies, exaggerations, or even honest mistakes with respect to facts could carry serious consequences, up and and including the ending of careers.

That simple reality accounts for the vast majority of my so-called “trolling” on EV sites. I give Inside EVs great credit for publishing this guy’s video. He garbled a few things, but he got enough of it right that I consider it to be one of the most important messages I’ve seen anywhere.

Enthusiasts need to listen to that guy on the video over and over and over until they finally get it. Joe Friday was no fun at a party, but he always got his man.

I think he’s right about infrastructure being super important. Even when all it is for is occasional use. DC QC is vital. Nissan should make chademo standard. They should also provide and maintain one DC QC at each dealer that sells LEAF. This would have likely retained this customer. Yes… 200 mile range batteries will be great.. But if your 95% case is under 60 miles a day… LEAF is a great car. My family now drives 2 of them. We have DC QC in every direction from out home out to about 100 miles out. So 150-200 mile trips are possible on rare planned occasions. We tend to take trains or planes for longer trips. Infrastructure is key.

If you blow off people who take road trips, you’ll be b.s.-ing yourself and will ,limit EVs to a small niche. Mainstream drivers want this:

http://tinyurl.com/rdtrip1952

I just don’t see charging stations being important, given how slow even the “fast” ones are. My EV is first generation, limited to 14 amps, 240v. It uploads about 10 miles of range per hour, or one-sixth of a mile per minute of charging. The equivalent gas car can upload 150 miles of range per minute of fueling.

Even if it could plug into a DC charger, that would increase the charging speed to only 1 mile a minute, still 1/150th the rate of upload at a gas station for the gas equivalent. And any savings on the cost of fuel would be more than wiped out by the premium rates for electricity at a public charger. At home, I pay about 12 cents/kWh. Public chargers are a minimum of triple that.

Numbers aside: I can’t think of a single trip I’d take in my EV if it could use a DC charger that I’d have otherwise avoided because it can’t. Why? Because DC charging just isn’t quick enough, or cheap enough, to be something I’d rely on.

I think your problem is about maintaining the status quo versus convincing people to change their behavior. And that is a challenge since people do not usually want to change (even though they do so all of the time). People will learn to plug-in their cars at night (and the upcoming high mileage cars will help so that it is not every night) or while they’re at work. As for DC QC, I don’t think they need to be any faster than achieving a full charge in about 30 to 45 minutes (assuming a high range vehicle like a Tesla). Why? Because most people who go on road trips will stop for dinner or a break at some point and really, driving for long stretches without stopping is unhealthy. You stop for a rest or meal every few hours and then jump back on the road after being charged up. Especially true if you have a family! People will have to change their behavior for electric cars, and I call that a good thing. I think it will change their habits for the better and I also think things like HSR will relegate the car back to its original purpose… Read more »

We’ll have to disagree about the refueling times. It’s not an issue now, because there aren’t any long-range EVs to speak of, and what there are out there are in the hands of early adopter enthusiasts.

People will be fine with charging at home, although if they top off every night, their batteries will quickly go to hell. This is partly why the range for commuter cars has to be a LOT longer than the average 28-miles of daily use, the other reason being that the average is one thing but the standard deviation is another.

But tell people that they can expect to stop for an hour every 150 or 200 miles, and that car will never be the only car. A so-called 200-mile car, i.e. 65 kWh, is going to be a commuter car/second car in the mainstream market.

And that second car ain’t gonna sell too well if a BEV stickers for $35K, even with a 65 kWh battery. It’ll expand the market, but it’ll still be a niche. That’s what the video here is really about.

Fair enough on the refueling time, considering we’re only speculating on what might happen and don’t know what really will happen until there actually are enough longer range EVs on the market. I don’t think topping off the batteries will cause range to go to hell though. Li-Ion batteries are not like NiMH. They don’t have the same memory issues. I actually rarely deep discharged my Leaf when I had it and I’d suspect that most of the time, the charge/discharge cycling was about 40% – 80% in the first year or two and then 40% – 100% in the last year. I did loose some capacity, but it didn’t “go to hell.” There is a difference between “telling” people what will happen and telling them how to live with such a car. It is all in how you deliver the message. Deliver it the right way and it will be embraced (i.e. tell them how to live with it and how it will benefit them, no more gas station trips etc.). Deliver the message the wrong way (you only get X number of miles and that’s it) and it will be rejected. Similar to how people thought the Volt… Read more »

I’ve studied recharging and battery life as much as a non-chemist can. My conclusion is that habitually running it much below 20% SOC, and/or topping it off to 100%, are battery killers. I believe the topping-off factor is the major reason why laptop and cellphone batteries (also lithium) crap out after a couple years.

I don’t think old vs. young is an issue. I think it’s a matter of people’s requirements, and of their dream, if you will. The idea, for example, of having one car that goes a short distance on a charge, and then renting an ICEV for longer trips, is based on a fundamental misreading of the economics of car ownership. To be specific: The main costs of car ownership, insurance and most of the depreciation, are incurred whether it sits in the driveway or is driven.

Therefore, renting a car for out-of-town trips is an additional expense and not a cheap one.

p.s.: I guess I need to clarify something. Fuel is also a main cost of ownership, but you pay that no matter what. I considered the differences when looking at renting a car while also owning one. The only savings you get when you rent would be less tire wear on the one sitting at home. Depreciation from driving a thousand miles on a vacation is minimal compared with depreciation emanating from the mere passage of time, which happens no matter what.

CP I agree what you said on both counts.

My 4 year old Roadster I will probably sell by the end of this week, and its obviously depreciated. Its out of warranty, so ongoing repairs will make it ultimately too costly for me. Since its basically the start of summertime weather, this is the perfect time to sell a “chick magnet” ‘hot’ convertible to a rich football player.

ALso, I feel you are intuitively realizing something the ‘big experts’ here don’t.

Namely, once you get a car charging at a 600 mile per hour rate, that is about the best that can be expected. A 6000 mile per hour charge rate (much slower than a gas station, still) will always cost MUCH more than 10X 600.