Nissan Exec Confirms 60 kWh LEAF Is Coming, Won’t Say When (w/video)

Nissan IDS Concept

JUN 21 2016 BY ERIC LOVEDAY 172

New 60 kWh Battry Found In IDS Concept Fits Snugly Into Almost The Same Space As Current 30 kWh Version (new pack is slightly taller) - photo courtesy of Daily Kanban

New 60 kWh Battry Found In IDS Concept Fits Snugly Into Almost The Same Space As Current 30 kWh Version (new pack is slightly taller)

The writing has been on the wall forever, but Nissan has been reluctant to make any official announcement. That is, until now.

We’re talking about the next-generation Nissan LEAF, which will have a 60 kWh battery pack, as shown quite some time ago.

This new pack should bump range up to somewhere in the ~225 mile/365 km (EPA) area for the new LEAF.

Nissan LEAF Range Chart Snapped By Mr. Schmitt

Nissan LEAF Range Chart Snapped By Mr. Schmitt

We still don’t have a precise timeframe for the launch of the next-generation LEAF with the 60 kWh pack, but Autoblog got confirmation that “it’s coming” while attending EVS29 in Montreal, Canada.

Here’s what Autoblog states:

“Today, we finally got confirmation that the next-gen Leaf will indeed have a 60-kWh pack. Kazuo Yajima, Nissan’s global director of EV and HEV engineering, told AutoblogGreen that “It’s coming,” referring to a 60-kWh Leaf. “I’m sorry I cannot say when,” he said. We spoke with Yajima at EVS29, a large electric vehicle symposium happening this week in Montreal, Canada.”

Next Generation IDS/LEAF 60 kWh Battery - Cells In This Case Made By LG Chem

Next Generation IDS/LEAF 60 kWh Battery – Cells In This Case Made By LG Chem

Nissan has been using the IDS Concept to show off some of the tech that will be in the next-gen LEAF. However, IDS is not believed to preview the actual look of the upcoming LEAF. Regardless, here’s a look at IDS once again for your viewing pleasure/displeasure:

Nissan IDS Concept foreshadowing next generation LEAF for 2017

Nissan IDS Concept foreshadowing next generation LEAF for 2017

Here is some peaks at the components/modules in the next generation LEAF’s 60 kWh battery we’ve picked up:

Nissan 60 kWh Module Stack

Nissan 60 kWh Module Stack

Nissan's new high density module stack

Even larger high density module stack

...one more

…one more

The Autoblog video below captures the words of Kazuo Yajima, Nissan’s global director of EV and HEV engineering. He speaks of the LEAF starting at around the 3-minute mark.

Source: Autoblog

Categories: Nissan

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172 Comments on "Nissan Exec Confirms 60 kWh LEAF Is Coming, Won’t Say When (w/video)"

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I think they should take the cool parts of the IDS, or tone it down a bit, and it would look good. Seeing it in person in Detroit, it looks better than the photos.

I’d like to know if the 60kWh battery will have active thermal management. Will the DCFC be Chademo, or will CCS be optional?

And of course, how big is it going to be. The larger it is, the more it impacts range, unless they keep a low profile vs. upright CUV style seating.

Per ” Will the DCFC be Chademo, or will CCS be optional?”, Nissan could slightly enlarge their charging door and receptacle space, and make room for CCS and CHAdeMO, just like they have J1772 + CHAdeMO now! Plus, at 60 kWh, they could take a detour and go with a Tesla Partnership and access the Supercharger network like the Model 3!

Why not throw in a couple of Zoe motors with 23 kW AC charging each they could cover all bases.

What they need to do is make lightweight, aero cuv style EV that could get 300 mile range on 60kwhrs.
Then offer a 150 mile version
.And should put the pack in their van now to give it decent range.
And make them look decent, classic if nothing else.

I saw the new Maxima in person last weekend, and it has strikingly similar lines to the IDS. It looks really nice.

http://www.nissanusa.com/buildyournissan/modelLine/build/2016/MAX?_vipreq=1111982674

The maxima is stretched out vs the LEAF profile. Think mini Murano and that is what I am hoping for.

I wonder if they’ll use a thermal management system this time?

There’s not thermal management in the battery in the picture.

I doubt Nissan will do this. Seriously doubt.

I think Nissan will seriously consider thermal management. I think they (and VW) came from the angle that driving at typical highway speed won’t use nearly enough power to warrant it. But when it comes to DCFC, even their 30 kWh battery Leaf lags SparkEV.

When 150 kW DCFC come to market, not having TMS is going to be a serious handicap against most (all?) other EV, even against much smaller battery EV. If 150 kW Chademo based Nissan is found to charge at half the speed (or less!) of even “tiny” battery EV on 150 kW CCS, that’ll be doubly doom for Nissan.

I can assure you that they are not using the Spark EV as their benchmark.

For a “world car”, it’s just dollars and cents. It costs more to have a cooling system (and takes up space). They didn’t blame the issues with early LEAF batteries on the cooling system… they blamed the chemistry / anode design.

I also would find it HIGHLY unlikely that the LEAF 2.0 will accept 350 amps (the CHAdeMO spec for “150kW”), since that was only just recently released.

Since the Kia SOUL EV can take 200 amps, I suspect that the LEAF will be the same. It appears that GM will happen the Bolt with 125 amps, and of course, Tesla will be off the charts in comparison.

If they’re not using SparkEV as benchmark, they will be sorry. When a tiny battery EV on CCS can spank much larger battery Nissan, that will have bad consequences for Chademo. Seeing how Nissan might be the only Chademo soon, they need to chase the quickest charging EV, one of which would be to release 150 kW Chademo ASAP.

SoulEV has active thermal management, and it seems quite effective as you point out. Since SoulEV has been out for a while, I suspect / expect next gen Nissan to do better (ie, closer to 150 kW)

Nissan never mentioned anything about slow DCFC. I think you’re referring to battery degradation regarding electrodes. Certainly, active cooling would help with that, too.

The SparkEV doesn’t “spank”, it’s just poorly designed. Any battery can charge at a high C rate – it boils down to how long you want the battery to last. Since it’s just a compliance EV, you wanna guess?

Absolutely. The other manufacturers “choose” not to pump excess power into their batteries for a reason. Either the Spark has a huge reserve capacity battery, or it will suffer quicker degradation. That is if they don’t have some “Magic” battery chemistry that no one else knows of.

We have heard a lot of stories about Leaf owners seeing reduced range/battery capacity. I haven’t seen any Spark owners running into the same problem. The Spark may not be a great BEV, but it is a solid limited utility, short range BEV. Once the Leaf gets a 60 kWh pack it will move into a completely different type of car, i.e. a full utility BEV vs. a limited utility BEV.
And some form of thermal management is a very good idea.

FYI I live in the greater Phoenix area. The SPARK EV battery and every other battery pack with cooling air or liquid has a very long life with almost zero capacity loss.
EVen the new 30 kW LEAF (Lizard) loses capacity since it has no cooling.

Jim, your experience is in line with just about everything I have heard about the Spark EV. GM did a really good job on it. I just wish it, and the Volt, were a bit bigger/roomier.

It’s not just matter of chemistry that determine the charge/discharge rate. It’s also battery cooling. SparkEV is so poorly designed that over hundred DCFC has resulted in almost no battery degradation. I still see range of over 95 miles, just like the first day I got it. If this is poor design, please, please design all cars so poorly like SparkEV, not like Leaf.

My I3 has a refrigerated battery and still tapers more than the Spark on DCQC.

What year is your SparkEV?
As far as I heard early ones used phosphate batteries, later ones switched to LG Chem (some NMC mix?). You should know you can only have some of all good Li On battery features at the same time. Li-phosphate has excellent safety, cycle life and power (charge/discharge rate). But low specific energy that makes it unsuitable for long distance battery cars.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

The LEAF 2.0 will likely not be “slower”… 200 amps is greater than the 120 amps of today’s LEAF.

But, I very seriously doubt that LEAF 2.0 will have 201-350 amp capability.

I’m not sure how any of this “looks bad for CHAdeMO”. The CHAdeMO Association protocol chargers appear on track to maintain their lead, and with dual CHAdeMO / CCS (Combo1 or Combo2 for their respective regional niche markets), CHAdeMO will soldier on quite nicely.

The Nissan LEAF 2.0 will absolutely be CHAdeMO worldwide. With the world’s largest auto maker, Toyota, possibly coming out of a deep thaw on EVs, they will absolutely be CHAdeMO, as will Honda (someday).

Spark EV is not a competitor, and never was. Bolt will be, however, and it appears GM will stick with 125 amps max. Model 3 will likely be around 350 amps, however, putting all the others to shame.

I’m not saying next gen Leaf will try to compete against today’s SparkEV. SparkEV is the benchmark of the best today, and next gen must beat that. There isn’t a way to do that without active cooling. If Nissan isn’t looking at SparkEV or even SoulEV, that will be their downfall.

Chademo may soldier on even with slow charging Nissan products (ie, no active cooled battery). However, the argument for it will become more silly when many will make CCS cars and some with much smaller active cooled battery that charge quicker. Yes, it’s not due to Chademo, but if the only cars made for Chademo are slow, it’s the same thing.

We don’t know when (or if) Toyota will rescue Chademo, or maybe they’ll simply partner with Tesla. If I’m starting BEV with DCFC, I’d rather go with superior tech (Tesla) than Chademo, especially when billions of Tesla 3 are on the road all over the world.

Billions of Tesla 3 are on the roads..?

Return when you’re sober…!

Ooops. My bad. It should read trillions. 😉

My recollection on the Soul EV is that it is more like semi-active: cabin air is routed to the battery pack, and since the battery likes about occupant temperature, that can work ok. Whether the Soul will choose to run the A/C in the cab, thereby having cool air go to the battery during DCFCing, I’m not certain. Could a Soul EV owner chime in?

http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=256

And for the record, I am not a huge fan of people jumping all over you for liking the Spark EV. Looks to me like it does some things very well (e.g. better DCFC capability then the Leaf). Not the car for me for other reasons, but no reason to rain on its parade!

Kia Description sounds right… and I know the Nissan e-NV200 also uses a forced air battery duct from the AC to cool battery. They only felt it necessary because of the expected heavier daily use of CHAdeMO.

Tony,

I love all you do to promote EVs, but how about drag racing the Leaf vs. the Spark EV to see which is the “inferior” car?

How do you think that will turn out? Will the Spark EV driver be able to read a book after he finishes the quarter mile before the Leaf gets there?

Now, if only I could actually buy a Spark EV at my local Dealer, like I can do for the Leaf. 🙂

GSP

I did race the RAV4 EV against the Spark EV… I lost… twice.

In defense of the RAV4, it’s impossible to not melt the tires on launch (or have severe power reduction from traction control).

“When a tiny battery EV on CCS can spank much larger battery Nissan, that will have bad consequences for Chademo”

I don’t understand what you’re saying either. The fact that Spark EV outperforms the Leaf on QC has literally nothing to do with the protocol used at the connector. Both CCS and CHAdeMO support similar amperage and voltage. The difference is the car. You could put a CHAdeMO on the Spark EV and a CCS on the Leaf and get exactly the same results – Spark EV will still charge much faster.

Here in the northeast, dual-standard is the norm. I have only seen one single standard QC (CHAdeMO), but that has since been torn out and replaced by a CCS/CHAdeMO dual standard. This is ok by me. It makes the chargers marginally more expensive, but satisfies the market. I really doubt we are going to see consensus on a QC format in this decade. Maybe when we get to 500kW+ power levels, we’ll see the automakers converge.

They better hurry or they will be like Honda after the 1st gen Insight….

Looking at that battery pack,it doesn’t appear to have any type of coolant circuit running through it that’s visible tat this angle.

This was the #2 reason why I didn’t get a Leaf. Why would I want a car whose battery degrades so darn quickly. Fine for a lease but not a purchase. I really hope they put something in to it to cool the bigger battery!

Nissan really improved the batteries in the 2013. Mine is 3 years old has over 40k miles and still has all 12 bars.

So does my 2012.

Did you know the bars don’t mean anything? The battery warranty is tied to the number of bars, and Nissan can change what the bars correspond to. So in other words our warranty is that Nissan guarantees to fix the battery pack if they want to…

Over three years in my 2013 Leaf and 30k plus miles, still twelve bars. Your 40 k /12 bar is where I am headedto be in 6 months, at least mileage wise.

2015 Leaf, 26k miles. No battery degradation based on LeafSpy data, not just the 12 bars. My schedule just recently changed and now requires DCFC about once a week, so by next year should know if that is having a negative effect.

My experience matches that with our 2015. No obvious signs of degradation at over 20k miles. Still boots up in AM with 1o1 to 111 miles on the gom… still goes over 90 miles easily 5 to 10% left. When mine was new the inventor of the LeafSpy checked it … and it was first 2015 he’d seen… said it was showing more battery than he’d ever seen a new battery display. My guess is they opened more of it up… or they were already starting to improve the batteries in other incremental ways. Our 2015 sure has more battery than our 2013 which has also not lost any bars… but is not showing nearly the range of the 2015.

Leasing a 2016 30kWh, I have 2000 miles on it now. My SOH is increasing slowly. Based on data I had seen before leasing, I expect it to take some large dive by now.

So far, very happy.

Perhaps air cooling combined with HVAC?

Any predictions on when the 2nd gen Leaf will be released? My guess is April 2017.

Actually April or soon after is my prediction too. It does seem an odd time for it considering most year models are in the fall/end of the year before, but things do point to the 2nd quarter next year (2017).

It is better to release in a warm month than in a cold one. When the Volt came out in December of 2010 some of the car mags did AER tests in temps that were freezing or below, and not surprisingly, the range looked horrible.

If they base the 60 KWh on the IDS concept then it will be one sweet looking car. With the actively cooled battery (finally), it should dominate the Bolt. Too bad for Chevy they decided to go with econobox style.

Whats wrong with an econobox? Isn’t it nice to have EVs with different bodies?

I’m not into generic econobox styling. Most people prefer a sexier design, something that that evokes an emotional response.

I’ve seen the Bolt in person and it’s worse than the pics. It does not look like $20K car much less a $37K car.

I don’t think you can speak for “most people”. Only yourself. Obviously vehicles with a lot of utility sell well as the CUV/SUV segment is more popular than sedans.

You’re right, most people prefer boring econobox style. That’s why Tesla can’t get any preorders for their sexy Model 3.

sveno asked:

“Whats wrong with an econobox? Isn’t it nice to have EVs with different bodies?”

Certainly there would be nothing “wrong” with GM making the Volt a car with such a tiny passenger cabin, if they also offered Voltec in larger cars.

But they don’t.

GM claims the reason they don’t put Voltec in a larger car is that the tech “can’t be scaled up”. But a lot of us EV advocates think the real reason is that GM doesn’t want a car using Voltec to compete with its more popular gasmobiles.

GM could so easily scale the Voltec…it would be nearly as easy for them as it is to scale up their ICE engines to power their humongous road barges.

“Easily scale the Voltec….”.

GM doesn’t have to scale anything… They already have an off-the-shelf dual planetary gear box, dual motor hybrid system 5 years ago for the Cadillac Escalade, which they discontinued.

Just plop that in a big vehicle, add their existing 3.3, 3.6, or 7.2 kw charger, put a j1772 jack on the side of the thing, and get a 30-60 KWH battery from LG.

60-100 mile all electric range in a very large PHEV SUV, or large truck? They’d have the market all to themselves.

And the gasoline savings which are large per vehicle times the number of vehicles sold would be huge.. You almost wonder whether the Oil Cartel made them an offer they can’t refuse.. Almost as scared as CHEVRON got when buying the EV1’s improved battery which never wore out, they bought the rights and then sat on them.

Thank you Cowboy Tesla, for moving Nissan along …

Hmmmm in the space of the Leaf release (2010), Tesla has launched the S3X, with the Model 3 pre-orders doing the most damage.

Nissan, because of its complacency, deserves to lose this war completely.

Nissan got tired of being in front. THis is their plan to bring up the rear.

As long as the new Leaf rocks who cares if they are a few months later than the Bolt? They still beat Tesla to an affordable 200 mile range EV.

We don’t know. Like at all. How do you know?

Jacked Beanstalk asked:

“As long as the new Leaf rocks who cares if they are a few months later than the Bolt?”

If Nissan still refuses to put an active thermal management system into the Leaf 2.0, then believe me, there will be a lot of potential buyers who will show how much they care, by choosing to buy something else instead.

I do agree with you about timing. Timing of entry of a new product doesn’t matter if you actually offer a better product. But will Nissan offer a product that many consider better? That’s the real question.

However, it’s inevitable that Nissan will sell a lot of Leaf 2.0s. The reason for that is it will be widely and immediately offered worldwide, whereas the Bolt will be a rather limited production car not offered in many countries, and Tesla certainly won’t be able to ramp up production of the Model ≡ fast enough to satisfy demand, at least in the early years of production. Also, the M≡ won’t immediately be offered for sale in most countries where the Leaf 2.0 will be sold.

Of course they can’t say, LEAF sales would drop to almost zero if it’s coming soon…

But all signs point to 2017-2018.

PS: And it’s certainly not a coincidence that Chademo announced a 2.0 version up to 150kW in the same timeframe:

http://www.chademo.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2016-06-01_High_power_CHAdeMO.pdf

The 350 amp “150kW” CHAdeMO specfication was mostly to counter the CCS competition.

I absolutely would not expect the new LEAF to use that power, nor have an active thermal battery management.

Battery – 55kWh useable, 60kWh advertised
no or very simplistic cooling, rudimentary heating
200 amps max on DC (already more than Bolt)

wireless charging option

16 / 30 amp AC max (about the same as now)

some autonomous driving features

bigger center screen like Toyota Prius Prime and Tesla

lots of hype

lots of secrecy so as to not completely stop current LEAF sales

Agreed on all points. And probably just 100 kW fast charging capability.

FWIW, Tony predicted 200A QC. Given that the Leaf’s battery is likely to remain ~400V, this implies 80kW charging. Slow by Tesla’s standards, but likely faster than the Bolt.

Charge rates at 80kW aren’t terrible. Hopefully the Bolt will be able to charge faster than the 50 kW charge rate that is being talked about. The GM engineer I saw quoted last month was not shutting the door on a faster charge rate for the Bolt.
If I had to guess on how it will play out, given GM’s past history with charging of electric cars, they will completely fail to understand the importance of faster charge rates and then they will be surprised when other cars (in addition to Tesla) hit the market and outsell the Bolt.

The actual cost to increase DC charging is quite literally a few dollars for heavier cables, and maybe larger contactors.

Chump change.

Original Model S 60 didn’t used much more than around 80 kW (~200A) charging rate, and only for smaller part of charging, going down below 50 kW soon.

Somehow every fanboy screamed that it is enough :/ Leaf 2 would likely to use similar size battery. And it will not be NCA battery with just 150 Celsius thermal runaway, but NMC that doesn’t need to keep temperature as low. Sustaining 200A for 80% of charging duration would be faster than Model S 60. But you don’t know really what will they show in 2017 or in subsequent model year.

By the way, it is speculated that Tesla Model 3 may have air cooled battery. Liquid cooling hassle is not pretty really.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3975416-tesla-model-3-wins-innovative-simplicity

There is a new press info at chadmeo that official test for 150 kW version will be on first July, so that all charging manufacturer will soon get the 150 kW protocol.
http://www.chademo.com/pdf/ver1.1eng.pdf
I think the easy way for Nissan beat both, Bolt and Model 3 range by far would be the good drag from IDS and the tyres. I drove the i3 and its just awesome how economical you can drive this car. I would change my Leaf tyres but only 205 wide are allowed.

Well, it IS known that the Bolt arrives, so why hasn’t LEAF sales dropped to zero?

What is better: losing sales to Bolt because no new LEAF has been announced, or having potential customers hold off before buying LEAF 2.0..?

Surely announcing the coming car and reducing price and/or production of the obsolete product is the right thing to do. And it will piss off fewer people since you won’t have to give a lot of customers a raw deal!

Because, unlike Nissan dealers, Chevy dealers don’t actually want to sell plugins ?

Besides, Bolt won’t be quickly available everywhere.

I hear this a lot. I can believe they didn’t push the Volt and often didn’t have any. I don’t really believe they refuse to sell it to customers who come in specifically to buy it. And the situation may be, should be, better with the Bolt, which goes on sale in all states, not just the CARB ones.

The Osborne effect is real, but it isn’t the only force and it isn’t only relevant how ones own future products may cannibalize sales of today’s current products – others future products do that as well! Besides, the Bolt will soon be a CURRENT product, and then it should really be impossible to sell any Leafs at current prices. (I believe those who buy it now are the kind of buyers who don’t do online research and go see what’s on offer in the shops… at least I can see how that process would lead to buying a Leaf…)

By the way: Nissan dealers in the US haven’t exactly been trying hard to sell the LEAF either!

I recently called a dealer, he was none to happy concerning my queries on evs. He did say 2017 Volt and Bolt are under allocation models. I took that to mean they would go to the CARB states first which he confirmed.
Nothing new, but perhaps things will change.

I hopes and dreams were Kings and Queens, we would all be royalty.

Maybe its just where I live, but I see tons of VOlts all over the place = and almost never a Tesla.

The chevy dealerships have several 2016, and 2017 volts for sale, as well as used Volts.

If you want a volt, the dealers here will be more than happy to sell you one, new or used.

I guess it is where you live.

I live in Houston, 4th biggest city in the US, probably the #2 auto market after LA. I see at least 3 or 4 Model Ss everyday in my 10 miles of driving. I have seen 3 Model Xs in the last 2 days. If I drive across the city (60 miles), I usually see 10 – 15 Teslas and about 10 LEAFs and Volts combined. the rest of the plug-ins are harder to spot. I do see an i3 at least once a week.

I have yet to see a Volt 2.0. My calls to dealers to see it have said special order only. There is a 30 kWh LEAF at the dealer, but the only one in stock.

It is just different outside CA.

I’d say that in Philly, Volts are #1 EV, followed by Teslas and then we see some LEAFs. Yesterday I counted 7 Teslas on my way to a meeting. I drove through an “upper crust” neighborhood and that accounted for 4 of the Teslas. Typically I see3-4 Volts every day on my commute, 1-2 Teslas and occasionally a LEAF. Also, we do see the stray I3 every now and then. Of course I take note of any EV, and I have started seeing 2017 Volts more and more. I think that a lot of people, though, are buying used Volts(like I did)that came off lease.

Bolt isn’t for sale yet, not in the US, not in the rest of the world, so how exactly they can loose anything? They need to clean up existing Leaf first before going out with new one.

Leaf sales have dropped already, and will drop more anyway once the Bolt arrives, so I’m guessing it’ll come out around the same time as Bolt.

Chademo 2.0 up to 150kW it is, nothing else would make sense given their past investments:

http://www.chademo.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2016-06-01_High_power_CHAdeMO.pdf

The timeline also makes sense, 150kW Chademo was just announced for a 2017+ introduction.

ChaDEmo needs to die. And luckily it’s got one foot in the grave already.

Toyota just thinks about building EVs few days ago I read in an interview, and they use CHAdeMO. CHAdeMO is ready to V2G and thats one most important step in future energy role of an EV.

Who cares? Toyota is crap.

Yes, they are “huge”. But Nissan, Toyota and Honda can’t carry ChaDEmo all by themselves. And Nissan has already hinted it might switch to CCS. The Koreans have made clear they are making the switch. American and European makers back CCS – even including Tesla, as full members of CharIN.

I agree that both protocols are largely equivalent, but that’s exactly why having both is useless and just drives cost. Many providers of power but a single open-source protocol is what we want (if we’re rational).

CCS is behind in deployment, but in terms of new deployments in Europe it’s already way ahead of ChaDEmo, thanks to the EU basically making CCS the standard for public charging stations.

Its really sad that you have such a craw up your six concerning something you have no control over.

CHAdeMO is an official EU standard, just like CCS.

CHAdeMO (and private Tesla Supercharger) are the only DC chargers in Japan.

In the USA, EU, and Japan, CHAdeMO leads by a wide margin. New installs mostly include CHAdeMO and CCS (with its regional differences).

Both Toyota and Honda hydrogen cars use CHAdeMO for vehicle to home/grid. Nissan LEAF is still the world leader EV, and it uses only CHAdeMO worldwide.

CHAdeMO is absolutely the only DC standard that uses the exact same plug worldwide.

Sooner or later, the world’s largest automaker will wake up… with CHAdeMO, of that I guarantee. Nissan has nearly single handed ly carried CHAdeMO so far, and look how well that worked out.

Anyhoo, I suspect we will have both CHAdeMO and regional CCS for many, many years… with nearly matching capabilities:

125 amp – “50kW” today
200 amp – “100kW” design
300-350 amp – “150kW” near future (2017-2018)
300-400 amp / 700-1000 volt “350kW” future designs

Sorry Charlie.

CHAdeMO is a great system… I don’t want any charging system to die… until its replacement is more plentiful and ubiquitous than it is. Currently CHAdeMO is in more places… working well everyday for more folks than the mildly supported… (GM doesn’t care, BMW and VW might…) CCS. I’d be happy to have CCS and CHAdeMO both available for at least the next 5 years in as many places as it can be installed. Why kill things that work? Makes no sense.

The pro CCS / CHAdeMO haters seem like paid shills to me.

Like it or not, get settled in for many years of both.

Slightly off topic… but would it be that much more expensive to update the ports on a LEAF to handle the updated J CCS socket and the CHAdeMO? Seems like the DC wiring is nearly there and most of the problem would be in the roms and other software. Really appreciate the CHAdeMO but also becoming plug agnostic.

LEAF is a world car, and both J1772 / L2 / Type 1 single phase AC and CHAdeMO are the same plug worldwide.

Yes, they could add two DC pins, a set of contactors to switch between CHAdeMO and CCS, plus some firmware to control it all.

But, that only works in the North American market. In Europe, it would require a completely new Mennekkes plug, which would require an entirely new three phase AC onboard charger. That’s not going to happen.

But, could they use the Renault method using the three phase motor as a three phase charger (Chameleon)? Of course, but it doesn’t sound like Renault and Nissan play that well together.

Range will be interesting. If they only hit 200 with a 60kWh pack, what does that say about the Model 3 hitting 200 using only 55 or so kWh? The Model 3 certainly isn’t a compact car! Tesla must have an incredible CdA and other efficiency tricks that Nissan and Chevy haven’t figured out.

Tesla 3 Cd = 0.21. Leaf > 0.3 (claimed less), Bolt > 0.31. What isn’t known for 3 is the weight, which will have much bigger impact at city speeds / traffic. Though it’ll have lots of steel, smaller battery could make up for it.

We don’t know the final cD for the Bolt. Only figure out there is the .31 number Car and Driver seemingly just made up out of thin air.

Based on Bolt’s boxy shape, 0.31 is probably reasonable guess. It won’t be whole lot better, certainly not like Tesla 3, not even in Prius territory.

The MS has a Cd of 0.24.
The 2014 Prius, which no one would ever call “sleek,” has a Cd of 0.25.
The sleek, low-slung i8 has a Cd of 0.26.

You cannot eyeball Cd.

You can eyeball Cd to a point. Take a cube and you know what it is. Same with sphere. You can roughly see that Bolt is boxy in rear, and similar to SparkEV in shape but bit longer. As such, it won’t be lot better than 0.3.

Anyone with a basic understanding of aerodynamics knows that the Prius shape will have a lower Cd than the i8. Yes, it is “sleek looking”, but it’s also designed to be sexy and catch your eye. The Prius is designed for low drag. Someone with experience can certainly “eyeball” Cd to some degree.

So you can “eyeball” that a Prius is 0.25 Cd but a Leaf is 0.29 Cd?

That’s not what I said. I don’t personally have a lot of experience with aerodynamics, but I do have a background in engineering. I understand why a kammback is more efficient than a wagon. And I can certainly tell by looking at them that a prius is more slipery than a Leaf. The Leaf is taller, boxier, and has a much more abrupt tailgate.

Cd will be lower, but CdA will be lower on the i8. So the i8 will have lower total drag.

Oh so now you can guess just the umber by looking at a car?

Since you are so good would you guess a number for Chrysler Promaster cargo van? Don’t cheat ….

The Bolt range is 208 miles. The 60 kWh Leaf range will be 235 miles, in Autocar Nissan told already 550 km NEDC are the claim. Thats more than a S90, because the Nissan is more efficient at low speed european cycle. And with this narrow tyres and 0,20 drag of the concept they could easy more than double todays range.

Yeah, but the next gen LEAF is not expected to have the actual look of the IDS concept. Quoting the article:

“However, IDS is not believed to preview the actual look of the upcoming LEAF.”

Nakamuto said already Leaf 2 will be in the direction of IDS, but we don’t know how much.

Mike said:

“Tesla must have an incredible CdA and other efficiency tricks that Nissan and Chevy haven’t figured out.”

Ya think?

In the years they were tested on the same EPA test cycles, the Leaf and the Model S got almost precisely the same miles per kWh, despite the Model S being a rather heavier car. Obviously Tesla has a more efficient powertrain.

Whether or not the Model ≡’s Tesla powertrain will prove more efficient than the Bolt’s LG Electronics powertrain is going to be more difficult to discern. The Bolt has a much higher roofline in back, sacrificing low drag for more rear seat headroom, and of course the utility of the Bolt’s rear hatch which the M≡ will sadly lack.

It’s a tradeoff, and obviously not all buyers will prefer one over the other. But the M≡ will almost certainly outsell, strongly outsell, the Bolt over the course of a few years; GM has signaled pretty clearly that they don’t intend to ramp up production the way Tesla plans to.

Too bad they don’t double that and really beat the competition with a 120 KWh pack instead of just staying at level with the Bolt, Model 3 and BMW i3. The way is up and above not staying in the pack. The same with charging speed, 500 KW 1600 v will leave the competition amazed and get the global market in the pocket. Price is secondary, just do it and prices will fall down as fast as market expends. It is time to be aggressive not prudent, bullish not bearish. That is at least so up to 150 KW and megawatt level charging. There are billions of sitting duck gas cars waiting to be feasted on.

Even Tesla isn’t that bold. Nor will the upcoming Chinese funded competition.

Established auto manufacturers aren’t going to stick their necks out too far with scary high voltage. 400 is scary enough.

I suspect that Porsche will be the only 700-800 volt battery car in this decade. There also will be next to zero chargers to support it, except for perhaps a few in Germany for photo ops and press releases.

Don’t forget that battery technology is a huge factor in what can and can’t be done.
Price per kWh, Watts per kg, liters per kg, etc etc determine to a large extent what is practically and economically possible each year that goes by.

The reason why they don’t use a 120kWh battery is because no one is willing to pay six figures for a Nissan Leaf.

Where do you get a six figure price from? According to GM they buy LG batteries at 145 $/KWh for the Bolt. If you take 60 KWh that is 8700 $, if you double that you get to 17400 $. You then add the box wheels seats, electronics and you get the new Leaf + price which will be higher than the new Leaf price but only by about 10 k$, for a much better car. So where is the six figure price?

Cost doesn’t scale like that. You cannot say “60kWh costs GM $8700, therefore you can have a 300kWh battery in a Model X for $43,500.”

You will get 2-seater or 4-seater without trunk as it will be full of batteries, and it will be heavy as truck, and range will not be double because of extra battery weight and extra suspension weight needed to carry batteries :/ Tires will be eaten quickly just like on Model S, creating diesel-like PM pollution.

How many fans will spend fortune on such car really? Charging it at 150 kW would not be cheap either because of grid peak power rates.

Doubling the battery will add 250 Kg, which is not so much more as to call it a truck. Sure suspension and other parts will be adapted but it comes down to minor changes. The main change is that the car is height because you have a double layer of batteries. The batteries are not in the trunk so that will not be affected. The range won’t be double because of a higher mass and higher Cd but that will nevertheless not be far off. So sorry but I don’t see a game breaker in such a car, except 10000 $ extra for a compelling 400 miles battery. But the electronics, the motor, virtually all the rest of the car remains the same. You just add cost where it is essential, in more battery. As extra benefit since you double the battery you can also double the charge power so you can charge more miles/h too.

Spider-Dan

“The reason why they don’t use a 120kWh battery is because no one is willing to pay six figures for a Nissan Leaf.”

Exactly.

Put in something that will drive the price of the car up significantly, and don’t worry about price?

Hmmmm, that reminds me of what Ford tried with the Edsel. How did that work out for them, again?

Adding 10000 $ to a 40000 $ car makes it a 50000 $ car, a five figures price. Where does that calculation go wrong?

This is certainly no surprise to any of us here. But it’s nice to have competition. So 60 is the new 24, I see. It seems that 24kWh was used on so many first-gen BEVs because it got them to 100 miles on the LA4 cycle. Does this bring them to about 250 miles? If so, does CARB offer more credits at this threshold? Or are we moving beyond that, and into an era when we size the battery based on customer needs and not regulatory credits?

This car is seriously on my radar. Unfortunately, I would want to wait for a few summers to see how the battery fares in the heat before buying. I guess that puts me near the end of the decade.

BTW, I predict that Nissan sticks with previous statements of “by the end of Power88” (i.e. by March 31, 2017) to release Leaf 2.0. Look for it next spring, slotted between the Bolt and Model III. Also I predict that Nissan will give us a proper introduction to Leaf 2.0 before the Bolt hits the show rooms.

The next CARB-ZEV threshold above 100 miles (three credits) is 200 miles (four credits), then 300.

55kWh useable / 60kWh advertised will do that.

The Bolt, LEAF 2.0 and all Tesla cars will get 4 credits per car.

Hydrogen will still get 9.

Interesting. So if I understand you correctly, they overshot the second tier (200 miles) but didn’t make the third tier (300 miles). So unlike the first iteration, they didn’t just do the bare minimum to meet the threshold. So maybe they are actually learning what the customer wants after all!

Tesla drove this 60kWh battery race… so just having a 165 mile EPA car that earns “200 mile” CARB-ZEV credits wan’t going to cut it.

It’s no coincidence that GM and Nissan have exactly the same 60kWh size battery.

300 miles gets the same 4 credits, unless it’s hydrogen… then 9 credits. So, there’s no advantage to go with 300 mile car, or Tesla would have already done it.

By the way, under the old CARB rules, Tesla did get 7 credits for:

“300 miles” / fast refueling (battery swap demonstration)

Competition. It’s a beautiful thing.

I too, do think that Nissan will pull the cover on the Leaf 2 just before GM starts selling the Bolt. This way they will do the least damage on Leaf 1 sales and steal some Bolt buyers.

I have said previously that I think they will announce it at the Paris Motor show at the very end of September with a view start production during the Q1 or Q2 2017, I see no reason to change my mind.

They will wan’t to take some of those Bolt sales off GM by announcing it before production actually gets under way IMO.

They need to almost stop LEAF 1.0 manufacturing worldwide, if they announce in Paris.

This isn’t a problem for Tesla with Model 3, or GM with the Bolt, since they aren’t competing with their own car (the Spark EV three state pure compliance car doesn’t count, plus it only has another two months of build anyway).

What makes you think buyers are THAT loyal to the brand???

The Bolt is coming and we’ve all known that for some time. Can you please explain why this wouldn’t have a similar effect on LEAF sales as if it was known a 60 kWh LEAF was coming, and when, and what it’ll cost? Because to my mind it’s a total mystery!

I don’t think the LEAF buyers will be particularly loyal, so I’m not really following your thought process.

Please provide a new body design. The original is kinda ‘meh’. Better aerodynamics please.

Like the Tesla Model 3, the LEAF 2.0 will be more sedan like.

Unlike Model 3, I’m extremely confident that it will be a hatchback.

To decrease the battery height it makes sense to lengthen the battery pack. Now they have to redesign a longer car.

Or they make a car that comes out somewhat higher like a crossover. If that allow a double battery skateboard why not. Top speed will be lower and Cd somewhat higher but with so much more battery, double battery, the range could still be close to double. 400 miles would be great. From then on the focus could finally be placed on more compact cheaper sets. But 400 miles would set ev at par with gas cars once and for all. If charging speed goes to 500 KW too, that is.

Man..!!.. you and your far out ideas!!

Yeah, If someone cannot chart how something is to reasonably happen, its just a lot of mental-masturbation.

His basic point that if spark plugs run on a million volts car chargers should too.

Now the cost of things ARE coming down, on a decadal level. ABB just annouced a supercheap single phase ‘MICRO-Substation’ (that only works from Y connected transmission lines, since only having to deal with voltage on one wire minimizes the cost.

25 to 333 kva models are around $300,000 a piece – and that is almost FREE when you are talking about this stuff. The size range makes little difference in price at 150 KV.

He will immediately counter that 15 kv lines are not so rare. Ok, well, why doesn’t Tesla use them for their superchargers then? There is absolutely no reason why they couldn’t.

I would not call prospective thinking the way you describe it, otherwise we wouldn’t talk Hyperloop, Mars or Electric planes, but what I propose is not that far forward. It is also not about millions of volts but merely 1600 v, just double the 800 V Porsche is already using on his Mission E.

The Model S battery is a already from the start a combination of serial and parallel cells arrangement that just “happen” to be at 400 V, but Tesla could decide in an instant to modify that combination so that it “happen” to be at 1600 V. This doesn’t require any special magic but would allow a same power charging with a cable having a section that is four times smaller. Or if they keep the section identical, higher C rate cells, as soon as available, would allow four times faster charge with the same cable.

If you supply a supercharger with an 11000 volt power line you also win from using 1600 v instead of 400 v because your transformator must go down from 11000 v to 1600 v instead of 400 v. That’s easier and somewhat cheaper. It is also better to yields.

But that would come at the expense of requiring the internal wiring of the car to be robust enough to handle 1600 volts without arcing.

From the Wikipedia article on “high voltage”, it looks like using British standards you could get away with “low voltage” wiring if it’s 1500 volts or less “ripple-free” DC; standards for AC are more stringent.

Not sure how the U.S. standard fits into that; 600 volts AC or lower for avoiding what would commonly be referred to as “high voltage” systems.

If the legislator has a saying on this, 1500 v is fine too.

Haha, the only reason you mention 1500 volts is because I suggested it to you as being the highest practical voltage since it is already a standard.

Hyperloop seems as Pie-in-the-sky as anything I’ve seen.

As far as Mars goes, when George “W” Bush said we’re going to Mars, I would drive down to florida to see him and Dick Cheney off – since I put the chances of them being prosecuted is about as high as the Hildebeast.

Yes you suggested the 1500 v with that same legal reason, so I changed my mind towards it. No problem with that.
It is just that 4 times 400 v is 1600 v not 1500 v so it could be more complicate to reconfigure the cells in the pack so that it can take 1500 and still 400 v as well.

There is no direct relationship between the alternating current input voltage, and the dc output voltage anymore, in view of power factor correction required by Euro Standards.

If you are talking about historical ‘1904 Baker Electric’ supplies such as General Electric used to make for homes and small garages (large garages used motor-generator sets), here are some conversions: (from the output of the isolation transformer – so that ANY input voltage at ANY standard frequency could be supplied (25-133 Hz):

1). Half-Wave choke input: .45 V input
2). Full-Wave choke input: (most common) .9 V input.
3). Three-Phase choke input: 1.35 V input.

Except in the case of the use of an external phase converter, #3 was only available for small garages, as the situation is similar as it is 112 years later in the states, – few residences have 3-phase power, and those that do must do phase balancing, a utility requirement.

I’m not certain why everyone is so fixated on a skateboard… like why does it need to be the same depth down the length of the car? I think the current Leaf design makes a lot of sense (excepting the small hump in the rear footwell, though it is at least flat): I don’t want my seat flat on the floor of the car anyways, so rather than have empty space under the seat, it makes sense to have batteries in there. This also makes for a nice deep trunk in my Leaf.

The “skateboard” design gives you a nice flat platform on which you can put just about any car or light truck body, so long as it’s not too short or too long.

Put a battery pack under the seat, and you won’t be able to fold that seat flat for more cargo space. You also won’t be able to move the seat forward or back. That last wouldn’t be an issue for rear seats, but would for 2nd row seats in a SUV or minivan with 3 rows of seats.

Bottom line: The “skateboard” design gives auto makers more flexibility in designing vehicles, and lower costs for putting a new model into production.

That is the best design from engineering point of view, CG … Etc…. The problem is that you cannot fit any other power train other then EV on it, efficiently. No problem for Tesla, problem for others, because they need to maintains revenue streams from all drive trains, not just EV, like Tesla … And bleed money left and right for long time. Hopefully, they will start making money at some point, but then the others will be doing the same or better things in EV world ….

Happy to hear hatchback… versatility is so much more important than looks… Here’s hoping they can also shoehorn that 60 into the eNV minivan also. 10% less range of van would still make that an awesome choice. 7 pass or cargo. Bring over that RV conversion too.

With a 0.28 drag coefficient, yeah make it more aerodynamic…

Lol seriously, it’s like they didn’t even consider that.

They might as well go ahead and announce it. I can’t see it hurting current Leaf sales. basically everyone interested in an EV knows the Leaf is at the end of its road. Some are still buying for whatever reason.

Agree. The Bolt isn’t a secret and should have a very similar effect on sales of today’s LEAF. IMO, announcing the new and discounting the current Leaf is the way to go.

Nissan sold nearly 25000 Leafs this year, pretty good and they can continue because in Japan or also Europe Bolt will come not or later and no RHD. Also Bolt will be expensive in Europe because of no local production.

Leaf sales in USA are currently -40% year-to-year from 2015. The Bolt is definitely a problem.

I do wonder if they’ll keep their promise, but the Opel Ampera-e is supposed to begin deliveries in Norway during spring 2017. Not before March but no later than May – if they keep their word.

Taller battery pack – I don’t see it in the new LEAF and then it looking like this IDS Concept. There plain just won’t be enough headroom.

I see that 60kwh battery pack in a taller form factor, more like Bolt than the current LEAF. Sure, there will be styling cues off the IDS, like the taillights and some shapes. But that pack is too tall for passengers to have needed headroom in a car like the IDS.

My prediction? LEAF 2.0 will be more small crossover-like.

This is great for all the nutheads in N. America who are crossover crazy.

The 60 kWh pack is only a bit taller than the current LEAF pack, so I don’t see any issue there. Heh.. the rear seats are like 10″ thick now, so they could take a few inches of that room.

BTW, crossover/hatchbacks are quite popular in Europe too!!

* Did I say “Bolt”?! Shame on me! I meant, “Bolt EV”. Sorry, GM…

What they don’t confirm, is that they won’t offer current LEAF owners the chance to upgrade, it’s the whole dealership, car seller mentality that they won’t let the pioneers who purchased their car on a leap of faith have a nice upgrade as a nice gesture, yes, i can keep dreaming and yes i have saved a spot for a model 3. Nissan, is really disappointing, they keep telling us they have break-through in battery technology, but the only thing we got was their 30 kWh battery, which wasn’t up gradable for current leaf owners.

Nissan learn from Tesla.

Why should Nissan give upgrade now when they switch to new battery technology in 2017. Then they can also have a benefit from giving you a 30 kWh battery and you benefit is much leighter than the todays 30 kWh. I also don’t hear from Tesla upgrades except the Roaster which was small series, for the S you pay over 30k $ and Tesla knows nobody will do that.

Because Nissan could at least give back to the people who trusted them.

Way back when Tesla demo’d the battery swapping, I swear they talked about buying a larger battery. At the time, the S came with 60kWh or 85kWh. I thought a Model S 60 could be upgraded at any time to an 85kWh battery (albeit at a price!) Did nothing ever come of that?

No, nothing ever came of it. At least according to discussion on the Tesla Motors Club forum, and I presume it’s true, the only guy who managed to upgrade his S60 to an S85 negotiated with the local Tesla service shop, which made the upgrade with no official sanction from Tesla Motors, and he had to pay through the nose for the upgrade.

This is one of the problems with Elon Musk being the principal spokesman for Tesla Motors. Elon often gets excited and talks about what he’d like to do in the future, without taking care to note the difference between hope for the future, plans which Tesla is seriously considering, and plans which Tesla is actually moving to implement.

It is very difficult and not cost effective to make early generations backward compatible. You could also end up with a sub-par product.

Considering most Leaf buyers are actually leasers, I expect any retrofitting of new battery to happen in CPO cars, rather than for a few thousand Leaf owners who might be willing to pay the steep price.

Battery are battery.
They just provide energy and there is nothing difficult switching battery of different capacity.
BMW did it and so VW follow.
Why Nissan is not doing it has nothing to do with technical difficulty.

The upgrade paths for batteries are apparently not as simple as they could be. From the little hints I’ve ever been able to get from Nissan engineers it seems that other components were very tightly integrated with the original batteries and the current 30kWh battery might need other components to be replaced that would substantially raise the costs.
I think another interesting upgrade angle would be if they lower the price on the newest 24kWh models. Even the Lizard 2015 battery seems much improved over the previous models. Also wonder whether or not refurbishing of the older batteries is worthwhile or not. ie: replacing the weakest cells in the multicell pack. Since the weakest cells can apparently make it tough for the rest of the battery to work as effectively. Now that these cars have reached the used market in a big way.

Would not buy this unless there is a battery thermal management system.

The Bolt has it, but imagine, if you have to wait for a 60 kWh battery to cool down, that would be some major design flaw from Nissan, and it wouldn’t be the first time.

CMON CARLOS YOU CAN DO BETTER.

Build the next Leaf like the IDS, would be super cool looking car, like from 2030 not like other cars.

We need to make a pool and make a bet on what date will be the last day that any EV manufacturer builds an EV with less than 200 miles of range for the US market.

I’m putting my $1 dollar on October 2019, with Fiat being the last to offer a sub-200 mile range pure BEV for sale in the US market.

Everybody else will have broken past 200 miles by then.

Actually, I think that’s way too early.

_For a period of time_, you could be correct, but if BEVs take off, and other costs falls, it could make sense again at some point in the future to sell more affordable short-range EVs. This would be especially true if cars become autonomous.

Consider that even at $100/kWh (which is pretty much Holy Grail) a 30kWh battery would be $3k cheaper than a 60kWh battery. If BEVs become ubiquitous. $3k is a big deal at the lower end of the market.

It would be interesting to have some hints regarding the price of the Leaf 2.0 in Europe.

Carlos does not like to lose.

Better Get cracking because otherwise you will lose a 3 Year Customer. In about 3 months going to acquire something else.

“Carlos does not like to lose (money).”

Carlos, is trying too hard, and when the Bolt and Model 3 is out, Nissan will plummet and fail.

It better be exceptional when it launches.

Bolt and Model 3 specs are already out there.

LEAF better be as quick and as spacious…

So far, based on current LEAF, it isn’t even close.

Just add more battery to the current LEAF won’t cut it.

I know there is no chance they will do it, but I wish they would offer a chance to upgrade the 1st gen Leaf battery to the 60 kWh one. I know the price would be steep, but it would still be significantly cheaper than a new car, Nissan’s dealerships could make money off the install, and it would be a lot less wasteful than older Leafs with degraded batteries sitting around forever. It would be win-win all around, but I don’t have faith in them to do so. I would consider paying a steep price to upgrade the battery in my 1st gen Leaf, but for the price of buying a 2nd gen Leaf I would just buy a Model 3 instead and Nissan would lose my future business.

+100

I would be happy to do like the i3 and change the cells for better ones… 36 or 40 kwh would make a very usable Leaf… and a lot better than my now 15kwh version!

They are not going to offer a battery that costs more money than the entire value of the 2011-2014 car.

I need more range…

Range is just aweseome, same like the Tesla S90 in NEDC cycle. Today the 30 kWh Leaf is already 250 km NEDC, with 60 kWh I think 500 km NEDC are just logic, and with narrow tyres and better drag they could beat a car with 30 kWh bigger battery.

I agree with PiP. I have a reservation for a model 3 right now but if the option to upgrade my Gen 1 Leaf battery with the new one at less than half the price of a M3, I would do it. Not as sexy as an M3 but would still be a very practical car for another 10 years.

Nissan needs to learn a few things from Tesla – show us the car, and get the benefit of lots of free publicity.

They obviously have a great new battery ready for production, and I think the IDS Concept looks great!

More importantly, it seems to have low drag and high efficiency features, that should help them beat the range of the Bolt EV, with similar capacity battery packs.

I’d go for a Nissan-sponsored lease of a 2016 Leaf right now to roll into a lease for the 2.0 Leaf as soon as and whenever it comes out. This would be so I can take a couple regional trips that my present 2011 can’t take without too much serial, slow charging. Otherwise I wait to give them any of my cash or maybe be spirited away while waiting for 2.0.

Nissan was first out of the gate with a 100% electric car in Dec 2010 (sorry, I’m not counting limited production cars like Tesla Roadster). It had big competition from a hybrid car (GM Volt), but there were no other serious contenders. The car still didn’t sell that well. Every other competitor in the EV market was a low energy attempt to convert a gasoline car for CARB compliance, model years 2012-2014: 1) Ford – Focus EV (built by Magna, sold nationwide to appease $5.9 billion government loan, plus CARB-ZEV requirements in ZEV states, and EPA CAFE to a very limited degree) 2) Honda – Fit EV (lease only, crush later business model) – available in California only, added a few other ZEV states in the northeast USA 3) Chrysler/Fiat – 500e (“don’t buy my car”) – ZEV states only 4) Toyota – Rav4 EV (Sept 2012), iQ EV (fleet only) – available in California only, and they were militant about it 5) GM Chevrolet – Spark EV (2013… way late, cost millions in open market ZEV credit purchases from Tesla) – available in California and ZEV state Oregon only, plus much later ZEV state Maryland Yes, the tiny Mitsubishi… Read more »