Nissan Denies Report Of LEAF e+ Battery Cells From LG Chem

JAN 10 2019 BY MARK KANE 92

Nissan produces its own lithium-ion batteries for both the 40 kWh and 62 kWh packs

The reports and rumors about LG Chem as the battery supplier for the new 62 kWh Nissan LEAF e+ were denied by Nissan.

According to Electric Revs, who reached out to the Japanese manufacturer, LG has nothing to do with any batteries for any LEAFs. Cells, modules and packs are produced by Nissan in Smyrna, Tennessee. That is contrary to strong expectations that the “new 60 kWh version” for sure would get LG Chem cells, what many had expected/speculated.

Here is the most important bit of info from Nissan spokesperson Jeff Wandell:

“LG does not supply any cells for our batteries, both in the US and globally, for either the 40 or 62 kWh battery”

“LG is not a supplier for Nissan LEAF batteries or cells. Nissan manufacturers the batteries for the [US] Nissan LEAF at our battery plant in Smyrna, Tennessee”

Nissan’s battery arm is Automotive Energy Supply Corporation (AESC), which – according to the latest news – still remains in Nissan’s hands, as there was no buyer:

“The battery factory in Smyrna is operated by a Nissan subsidiary called the Automotive Energy Supply Corporation or AESC. Nissan has made efforts to sell AESC during the past two years but Wandell said AESC is still owned by Nissan currently as no sale as been completed.”

We thought that AESC was sold to Envision Group, as the deal with GSR Capital was canceled, but maybe that was not the case. Sadly, the lack of an official announcement was the true root of all the speculation. We will come back to this topic when the matter clears up.

Source: Electric Revs

Categories: Nissan

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92 Comments on "Nissan Denies Report Of LEAF e+ Battery Cells From LG Chem"

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Interesting.

Not interesting to me, It just blew my opinion of it, Nissan, especially finding out they didn’t actively cool the cells either. Looks like they just don’t learn.
Their batteries are the worst in the industry we get in the US with only an 8 yr trend or so vs both Volt and Tesla are on 20+ yr trends.

So is this good or bad for the Leaf?

Bad. Expect seeing premature loss of battery capacity being common

Wonder why everyone is so convinced that the LG cells are better. We have no evidence that LG cells without liquid cooling don’t degrade just as fast as Nissan batteries

Ioniq has fan cooled, LG battery. No report of degradation like the Leaf.

Have there even been enough Ionics in the wild for long enough to come to that conclusion? US supply had been very limited and South Korea is not AZ or SoCal in terms of climate.

How many inoniqs are out there? What is their mileage? Is there an app like LeafSpy for them that reports battery health?

Lithium ion batteries all degrade. You can limit degradation by keeping them not too hot and not at too high states of charge for long periods. The idea that LG ones don’t is pure fantasy.

Active air cooling makes it a *completely* different story than no active cooling at all. It’s something like an order of magnitude difference.

Do we know that they don’t have forced air cooling like Nissan does with their E-NV200 van. This may prove adequate if the AC is hooked up that way to the pack. Anyone from Nissan know this?

Several news sites have explicitly stated that it has not active air cooling. Sounds very much official to me 🙁

We saw right here on IEV; 80% lease EVs…Lease and no one has to worry…

I sell them for a living and they put out 16c, 1k amps even 5 yrs old. Vs maybe 4c for the Leaf and 6-C for Tesla.
I check each cell and everyone for 7 packs now have had cell to cell voltages within 1/100th of a volt.
I use them in my EVs without a BMS and without cooling and they still are within 1/100th of a volt after a yr of charging abuse.
I seriously doubt other cells come anywhere near the Volt/LG cells including Tesla except for weight..
Most EV drag racers are using Volt/LG packs because they put out 300kw/400hp from just 16kwh. They normally use 2 of them.
I’ll be adding heating shortly by the cooling system though.
Vs Leaf batteries are lucky to make it to warranty , 8 yrs vs 20 yr trend on LG/Volt and Tesla.

I think that it’s better to have the control over the production of the battery cells, battery modules and battery packs.

I don’t. I think either strategy can be good.

In Nissan’s case if AESC batteries were so good, why would Nissan tried to sell this company ? And also why, AFAIK, AESC doesn’t supply any other automaker eventhough the annual battery production for Nissan is not that big ? There should be room for other clients (at least Renault).

They didn’t

Renault Kangoo uses ASEC cells.

Renault users LG Chem

You answered your own question: Nissan’s volume is not large enough to keep their own production competitive…

To my mind Nissan is the traditional car manufacturer mindset. I bet Carlos Ghosn was a main reason for AESC in the first place, and ousting him allows for changes like selling AESC. Nissan wants to just do their core business, make the cars, not be vertically integrated and do all this battery tech stuff. If they did want to be vertically integrated then you would think they would hold on tight to AESC, develop their V2G, introduce a Powerwall type device, and really maximise this battery tech advantage they have as a company. Instead it seems like they are doing everything they can to offload that advantage.

And why do you think that? If EVs become mass market products, the batteries must become commodities. You don’t generate a lot of profit from commodities.

The downside are the high investment costs to keep up with competitors that sell to all brands and markets (laptops, phones etc.). So eventually it will be bad.

You also take the full risk of missing an innovation right now, or being stuck to non competitive cells. Your own battery division also lacks competition, so it’s easy to loose your edge. That’s what happened to Nissan. So it’s actually bad right now.

So why do something that led to an undesirable outcome eventually and already put you in a bad situation?

Conversely your battery company might be the one that has the major break through. It’s not like computer electronics where there is a pretty well defined path of improvements. This is a chemical reaction process, someone at any point in time might hit on a combination of chemicals that yields a quantum improvement. Then all of a sudden you have a serious advantage. You’d think AESC has some talented battery people. Let’s face it, they have persisted without active cooling, yet in essentially the same form factor increased the battery power very much similar to their competitors. And I don’t know of one single case of LEAF battery fire, so thermal runaway hasn’t been an issue even though active thermal management has not been used. And you could argue that ICE sales prop up the LEAF, but you would think that could only be sustained at the corporate level for so long before management pulls the plug or limits it to compliance sales only. Yet here is LEAF, priced at the lower end of the EV scale, with some pretty good features, and sold in worldwide markets. So they must be doing something right. I think if Nissan was more… Read more »

That sounds like a “worse” news to me based on their past history of the battery durability.

“Nissan” and “battery durability” are almost mutually exclusive.

Tesla sales FUD

Can we all take a moment to reflect on how many times we all read on various sites that the 60 kWh pack would DEFINITELY use LG cells? I must have seen it a dozen times, and it turns out to have been a big, steaming bucket of wrong.

Something to keep in mind as we go about our merry way in the coming weeks, months, and years…

We also heard that it would be liquid cooled for sure. Maybe that was the plan before the AESC sale fell through and then they decided to fall back to their own supply

The liquid cooling talk was probably mostly from wishful Gen 1 Leaf owners.

Do Not Read Between The Lines

I think it was an assumption that followed from the use of LG Chem cells.

We don’t know whether the sale actually fell through — and even if it did, I rather doubt they would base the decision on that…

They many have licensed LG battery chemistry/equipment, but still make the cells themselves.

The change in form factor is interesting, and the significant increase in power density implies a chemistry change.

AESC has been using cobalt since the 40 kWh packs.

Or maybe already the 30 kWh one… To the best of my knowledge, it has never been officially confirmed for either.

Does it really matter or are you just OCD?

Apparently this was the first time any of the dozen EV news blogs actually asked Nissan for a statement. That says a lot about the quality of the “news” you get there.

Maybe Cleantechnica will put themselves in their next #pravduh report.

How do you know they haven’t asked before, and just got the usual “no comment”?

Because if they did, they should have said it’s still unknown. So they were either lazy, or sold something as facts they didn’t know if it was true.

If I look at the amount of articles such sites typically produce and the amount of authors they have, I‘d guess they are lazy.

It’s perfectly possible that they were indeed testing prototypes with LG batteries, but ultimately decided against it, for any number of possible reasons. In fact that decision might even be the reason for the delay…

No thanks to any Nissan ever again. Battery degradation in my 2017 Leaf is totally unacceptable with over 20% loss in 7500 miles. Now their just making more of the same. And only marginally faster charging at 70 kW chadmoe. No thanks. Nissan, your history to my family, my friends, anyone with a brain.

where are you driving this car?

Mostly on roads, I would hope.

An ICE car is the one for you, my old ICE car tank started with 70l and after 1 million miles is still 70 liters!
🙂

ICE cars lose range too even though the tanks don’t change in size. As ICE efficiency drops, its range will drop.

But that drop in efficiency is usually small enough if the vehicle is well kept. And owners rarely notice the difference. Since gas refilling is quick and easy and gas stations are plentiful, it is rarely a problem.

Due to a fall in compression.

Entropy never sleeps.

You foolishly paid for so much fuel. It sux to be you.

Did you try the software upgrade to fix the problem?
In most cases it is not cell degradation but the cell monitoring software that is at fault.

Just keep beating it, it will fall under warranty claim soon.
Nissan garantee 66% remaining for 8 years or 160 000 kilometers.

5% loss on my 2018 w/ 7500 miles, one hot summer, and 100+ QCs

First 5% is not really representative — but if it keeps degrading at that speed, that would be pretty bad 🙁

no battery loss on my 2016 Volt. Thermal management is the difference.

Where do you live? I’m at 13% loss for my 2013 with 40,000 miles

My 2013 Leaf (3/’13 build date) has only 18-19% battery degradation (LeafSpy Pro), after 5.5 years of in service use, and closing in on 70k miles, with almost 750 DC fastcharge sessions.

I have 10 X as many miles and probably the same multiple of DC fast charges, and we are both down the same battery capacity loss?

I’m smoking my Leaf battery pack on the DC fast chargers in So. Cal. at up to 120. F + during at least 10% of the road trip repeate CHAdeMO sessions.

It has been widely reported that what was first thought to be a case of premature aging on the 40 KWh Leaf battery was actually a software error in which the car reported the capacity incorrectly. This can be easily remedied. Have you taken it to a Nissan dealer?

A 20% loss after 7,500 miles sounds basically impossible to me, unless the battery was just defective from the factory. I had a 2013 24 KWh Leaf that lost no capacity after 7,500 miles.

There’s a battery management bug in the leaf 30’s. Sounds like this is missing it.
Expect it to jump back into the 90’s when it’s applied.

A 2017 gen 1 supposedly ? Sounds like the old software bug

Sounds very made up but if there’s any truth to this, lesson learned, you should have leased…All the cool kids are doing it…

Did you fix the BMS software? If not that’s not degradation.

FUD

FUD again. My 2016 leaf 30kwh as 90k km (60k miles) with 370+ rapid changes and still have 90% SOH according to leaf spy. The software patch was applied and made a big difference.

That’s not good news. But it does explain why they don’t use active cooling. I’m betting LG wouldn’t have sold batteries to Nissan unless they were going to have cooling. Well, the Leaf once again stays off my radar.

I doubt they would actually deny to sell. More likely just refuse to make promises about degradation…

They would loose their brand value if they allowed Nissan to fry and degrade their batteries + tell everyone that they source from LG to sell their cars better.

As an established battery cell supplier, I would certainly not allow my product to be used like that.

I’m not sure I believe this, since if the source is truly Nissan, then that’s all the more reason to suspect that it’s false.

Nissan trying to be more like Elon and Tesla? False statements and all? 😀

I may of either started or perpetuated the LG Chem rumor. Probably a case where sell on the rumor, especially if it’s not true, would have been good advice.

Don’t give yourself too much credit.

Do Not Read Between The Lines

Renault switched to LG Chem.
Lots of manufacturers switched to LG Chem.
Nissan was selling AESC.
So people assumed LG Chem and assuming LG Chem they assumed liquid cooled.

Renault switched from who to LG? Zoe had LG cells from first day.

Hmm.. interesting facts on the battery was well as other commenter responses.

There probably would have been a long waite as LG battery has their hands full already.
Also, all the press releases announcing the Rechargable battery division sale came from Nissan USA, now whos fibbing?

I think the key word is the transfer isn’t completed *yet*

It’s scheduled for march.

That’s what I’m thinking as well. The way they worded it, it doesn’t sound like the sale actually fell through. It was never announced to take effect immediately in the first place.

I’m in Southern California and my 2015 Leaf lizard pack battery capacity is down more than 30% after 90k miles. When virtually depleted the battery can take approximately 16kw. Range is less than 70 miles. 98% of the Charing done using L2. I’m done with EVs with no temperature management.

Sounds like it should be eligible for replacement under warranty very soon?…

What a mess… just buy Kona, Niro, Soul.

Nice that there are options now.

Or a Bolt, which is STILL the only 200+ mile, <$40k BEV you can buy in all 50 states.

Not an option outside the US/Canada (and maybe Mexico).
You shouldn’t think of the US as the default context for EVs. Remember, the US isn’t the most significant EV market. Not even #2, and fully half of InsideEVs’ readership is from outside the US.

Do Not Read Between The Lines

It’s not a mess because peoples assumptions were wrong.

Still, if you can get your hands on one, the KoNiro offers more.

These people are as bad as politicians it is all fake news.

So, in 2013, Nissan made a change to their batteries because of the horrendous battery degredation in the 2011 and 2012 models. This improved things from horrendous to poor. By all statistics I have seen, Nissan’s batteries still degrade at a much faster rate than Tesla, GM, BMW, etc. Now, in 2019, they are introducing a battery pack produced by the same group, with no indication of better chemistry and with no active cooling system like most other automakers use?

I certainly will not buy another EV from Nissan until they provide me some reason to believe that their battery degradation problems have been solved.

“with no indication of better chemistry and with no active cooling system like most other automakers use?”

Lack of in formation doesn’t prove anything. Let’s wait for the analysis of the chemistry and the cooling system before making any conclusions.

The 40 kWh packs use cobalt, you need to keep up.

Where is the information that using cobalt has solved Nissan’s degredation issue? Haven’t read anything saying that. As I said, until people see evidence that the batteries won’t degrade quickly, they will assume they will just as the current ones have.

Well I guess if the degradation goes beyond 8bars in 8yrs or 160,000km then you get a replacement battery. For majority of new buyers they probably sold the LEAF in that time, or they leased. It’s the next owner who wears this degradation issue, so 2nd hand market is really where this issue is going to be felt the most. But then again, if you bought a degraded LEAF and then were able to warranty replace the battery, that’s probably a really cheap, effective EV.

This is true, but don’t forget, poor resale value because of degredation affects current lease prices, and therefore sales of new cars. If you are selling a car for $35,000, but you know the residual resale value is only going to be $12,000 after a three year lease because the battery degraded, then you have to pay more per month for the lease.

If LG is not making the Leaf batteries… maybe they could make “alternative Leaf” batteries. By this I mean, they know how to make packs, liquid cooled, and I would personally replace my old Leaf battery with a new one from a reputable brand – LG, Panasonic, etc, … And I’m sure many many Leaf owners would as well – 24kwh Gen 1 and 2 are out of the 5 year warranty that existed back then. Also, Nissan is the only major EV player with low capacity batteries that does not allow upgrade. (Tesla, did it in the past and their batteries are neither low capacity nor high degrading) (Renault and BMW allow upgrading) (Mitsubishi/Peugeot/Citroen, I have no clue but I guess I also don’t even know if they are still in the EV market…) (Other brands have not yet had enough market time to have smaller batteries that would be upgraded to bigger ones now) So if LG, Panasonic, etc, could provide (40kwh or) 60kwh liquid cooled battery compatible with Leaf as an upgrade that would surely have >80% of Leaf Gen 1 and 2 sold interested, with possibly some 30kwh owners also interested now, but surely interested in… Read more »

I think LG, and all the others, have enough new business that they don’t even need to look at the upgrade business. Maybe in 10-20yrs when battery supply out strips demand, then we might see these sort of solutions. Or maybe a niche business opportunity, but battery manufacturing will certainly require significant captial, so probably still not worth it.

I talked to a Nissan engineer at CES today, he said AESC was the supplier, and that they had lowered the resistance in the batteries so less heat build up

That is interesting