Nissan CEO: “Best Battery Maker Is LG Chem” – Wait, What?

JUL 21 2015 BY STATIK 81

Wait?  Who Is The Best Battery Maker Again?

Wait Mr. Ghosn? Who Is The Best Battery Maker Again?

A lot of waves have been made lately after Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn made some remarks about the expanding capacity of future batteries to be found inside the next generation Nissan LEAF, and the company’s potential tie-up on that project with South Korean battery maker LG Chem.

Nissan Currently Has Full Service Battery Production Facililties For The LEAF In Japan, the US, And In In The UK

Nissan Currently Has Full Service Battery Production Facilities For The LEAF In Japan, the US, And In In The UK

Specifically Ghosn said the following in a discussion with the Wall Street Journal:

“We have opened to competition our battery business in order to make sure we have the best batteries. For the moment, we consider that the best battery maker is LG.

Wait, what? 

Nissan, with the largest automotive lithium battery manufacturing base in the world, operating out of 3 continents is saying LG is the best?

And on LG Chem (or any battery supplier) for the future, longer range Nissan LEAF (gen 2):

“There is no guarantee for anybody that you’re going to get the business without performance.”

Taking the comments at face value, it appears Carlos Ghosn is saying that the “best battery maker” is LG over Nissan’s own in-house battery company it owns with NEC – the Automotive Energy Supply Corp, or AESC.

We take the quote another way, that Nissan is saying that LG Chem is the best battery maker outside the company’s own internal supply chain in Japan, the UK and the United States.

Nissan’s strategic partner Renault, of which Mr. Ghosn is also CEO, already has a deep working relationship with LG Chem to help ease the demands of battery production in Europe.  The battery maker supplies the lithium cells found inside the Renault Zoe and Twizy.

And about a year ago, Nissan put out word that they were looking for a 3rd party battery maker to bring on addition capacity for the next generation LEAF.  Ever since then, strongly worded hints around that process have pointed solely to LG Chem, and the potential for a joint production agreement between the battery maker and AESC .

Renault Inks 2nd Gen Battery Development Deal With LG Chem In May Of 2014

Renault Inks 2nd Gen Battery Development Deal With LG Chem In May Of 2014

Additionally, LG Chem and Renault signed a ‘memorandum of understanding‘ in May of 2014 to jointly develop next generation lithium-ion battery for electric cars, so the Alliance is more that comfortable with LG Chem’s cells, of which are likely to be near-identical to that of the next generation of cells from AESC.

Nissan's Smyrna Plant - Couldn't Shutter Battery Production Even If They Wanted To...well, the could pay off that ATVML loan first, then do it

Nissan’s Smyrna, TN Plant – Couldn’t Shutter US Battery Production Even If They Wanted To…well, they could pay off that ATVML loan first, then do it, but that seems unlikely

We see this week’s quotes from the Nissan CEO as an informal confirmation that LG Chem will indeed be a supplier of cells and components for the next generation LEAF alongside AESC.

The only question now is where Nissan might be looking to scale back and/or share production responsibilities.

Nissan USA has stated that the US plant is not a consideration for any drastic change – and would be off limits regardless due to the terms of a loan agreement with the United States government.

Given the deep relationship via the Renault Alliance already in place, Europe would seem to be a likely candidate to see the most change in battery supply chain for the next generation Nissan LEAF arriving in 2017.

Nissan currently has battery productions facilities in the US, Japan and the UK.

Wall Street Journal

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81 Comments on "Nissan CEO: “Best Battery Maker Is LG Chem” – Wait, What?"

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Scott

what is so good about LG Chem?

Sam EV

LG Chem Power CEO: We’re the Li-ion leader for PEVs because of material science

http://chargedevs.com/features/lg-chem-power-ceo-were-the-li-ion-leader-for-pevs-because-of-material-science/

DonC

Other than the anode, cathode, separator, and electrolytes? Probably nothing.

Of those four, the biggest advantage is the separator, followed by the cathode and then the electrolytes.

Pushmi-Pullyu

You left out the most important thing: Price per kWh. Of course, the way you get to a lower price is by improvements and/or lower costs in the anode, cathode, separator, and electrolytes.

Bonaire

Scott, if you have to ask, you haven’t done enough research into the industry.

I also like a CEO who speaks openly and perhaps truthfully about their industry.

Scott

I have done much more research into the industry than most. I haven’t seen a definitive answer. They are scoring contracts left, right, and center so clearly they are doing something right.

Best information I could find:
http://www.lgchem.com/global/vehicle-battery/car-batteries

They also claim to be a leader in material science. Sure. But what if you ask all the top 10 lithium ion manufacturers what differentiates them, you’ll get 10 different answers about how they are superior to competitors.

Are they cheaper? More energy dense? safer? Better longevity? Or are they just slightly better in all these areas?

Bonaire

I suspect better in some areas in terms of chemistries and manufacturing methods. Their pouch packaging is more of a stacking/folding approach than using a wound solution. This video is helpful.

Also, as they grow, I am sure their supposed 400 engineers in S. Korea are finding new ways to tweak the chemistry. Jeff Dahn says they are basically #2 in cell chemistry behind Tesla’s chosen cell from Panasonic.

Londo Bell

I LOVE it!

The fact that he’s willing to admit a competitor being better said something about his humbleness despite being a CEO for so long.

Bonaire

When a CEO speaks like this, it makes me want to support them more. Will I ever buy a Nissan? I think the chances went up from 30% to maybe 45% after reading this article.

Alan

Ah, but such talk can be very demoralizing for his own employees. Honesty is a good thing, but there’s such a thing as unwise honesty; you don’t have to say everything that’s true.

Pushmi-Pullyu

After the rather public debate inside Nissan about whether or not to shutter their own battery factories or merely to reduce the output drastically, this should come as a surprise to absolutely nobody working for Nissan. Any demoralization had already occurred.

David Murray

I have no doubt that LG batteries are better, but they WILL require thermal management, which Nissan seems to want to avoid.

pk

+1

mr. M

The zoe has no liquid termal battery management. No degration seeable. Vetter performing than 2011/12 Leaf. But i dont know a compare between the lizzard Nissan battery and the LG chem battery.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Is the Zoe sold anywhere it gets really hot in the summer? If not, then that’s hardly a fair comparison with the Leaf.

Surya

How about Spain and Portugal? Do those qualify as hot?

io

VW and Kia also decided against liquid battery cooling for their e-Golf and Soul EV, respectively.

This IMHO validates Renault/Nissan’s strategy.

Cavaron

My guess is that AESC will license the manufacturing process of the superior LG batteries. This is necessary, because aside Tesla, BMW (Samsung SDI) and Mitsu (GS Yuasa) – almost enyone wants the next gen LG batteries (like GM, Renault, Daimler, Kia, VW, Ford, Audi, Hyundai…).

Brian

That’s my thinking too. LG Chem doesn’t have production capacity today to serve Nissan, but Nissan has 3 large manufacturing floors. It’s a win-win, not entirely unlike Tesla and Panasonic going in together on the Gigafactory.

A battery cell is made of layers consisting of a number of materials.

Why would Nissan need to purchase entire battery cells, when if improving the composition of the layer would make a significant difference? Saying LG has the best batteries is another way of stating they have a better recipe.
(kind of like making chocolate chip cookies … you don’t buy a competitors product to sell as your own, but you might reexamine the ingredients using in you recipe)

IMO: It would be very odd for Nissan and AESC to toss their investments in battery manufacturing made over the last 6-10 years.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Brian_Henderson asked:

“Why would Nissan need to purchase entire battery cells, when if improving the composition of the layer would make a significant difference? Saying LG has the best batteries is another way of stating they have a better recipe.
(kind of like making chocolate chip cookies … you don’t buy a competitors product to sell as your own, but you might reexamine the ingredients using in you recipe)”

You can’t patent a chocolate chip recipe.

Brian

In the lawyer-happy US, I bet you can. Then you can sue somebody over making a cookie with your recipe.

TomArt

haha – you can copyright a recipe, but that’s it. A copyright only protects against an exact copy, with little or no wiggle room.

A patent is a whole different story – you could apply for a patent on a method for making chocolate chip cookies, but given all the cookbooks out there over the decades, someone else has probably already done it, or something close enough to be obvious.

Mikael

I don’t like it when (almost) everyone is going to the same source. It takes away a lot of the incentives to improve at a high pace.

Thankfully at least BYD and Panasonic are increasing their own production on a massive scale to keep some kind of balance.

Bonaire

There are some automotive manufacturers who are far more overwhelming than this. Certain names make almost all the airbags, almost all the transmissions, almost all other specific parts because cost of scale of having one or two behemoth OEMs makes the input costs a bit better – if not a lot better. Compare that to many of the hand-made cars like Rolls Royce or Ferrari on price differential. Ford could make Ferraris on an assembly line for perhaps half the price – but there isn’t a large-enough market for them on the scale needed to find that half price.

Leptoquark

I agree, especially if any one of the dozens of newly announced battery breakthroughs can actually be brought into volume production. If LG Chem has a huge sunk investment in the particular batteries they’re making now, and can undercut an upstart technology long enough on price, they can squash what might very well be a better battery technology.

JakeY

I’m worried about that too. LG Chem already has a bunch of automakers signed up (and more coming). If a big player like Nissan also signs up then they will take a large majority of the market. Basically only Tesla/Panasonic and BYD can get close to them.

It will reduce the amount of competition in the market and might slow down the pace of innovation.

DonC

That LG Chem produces better batteries than Nissan has been apparent for quite some time. Hardly matters if Ghosn admits it or not. The comment linking the business to “performance” aka price just seems to be some public negotiating.

What he’s not saying is that GM has better battery technology than Nissan, which does of course follow.

Bill Howland

THe volt and elr batteries do seem to lose less range than my roadster, (seeing as I can’t sense any loss at all in either gm product), (agreeing with what other Volt owners have stated here),
therefore its nice to hear a candid statement out of Ghosn.

Phil Trubey

I think the reason the volt looses less range than a Tesla is that GM reserves more of the battery in a hidden area for range degradation. GM has made the conscious decision that when they say 43 mile range (or whatever) they mean it for the useful life of the vehicle. Tesla, on the other hand, gives you access to more of the battery, but expects battery degradation. I like Tesla’s approach better, but it takes a more educated consumer to understand/deal with this. Bottom line, the cell chemistry degradation is probably similar between the two.

As has been beaten to death, hybrids in particular need to guarantee performance to meet the EPA / CARB guidelines.

Honda famously did not with their hybrid.

So, GM quite wisely uses only about 80% of the battery when new (compared to 93-95% of most all-EV cars).

As the battery degrades (all batteries degrade), the battery can slowly expand to use 82, 85, 91, up to about 95% of the existing pack. That should be enough to get the vehicle past the emission warranty and regulatory periods.

Both the consumer, and regulatory agencies, so “zero” degradation or loss of range (and subsequently no increased use of the polluting ICE). Everybody is happy for about 100,000 miles.

Toyota does something very similar with the RAV4 EV. As the battery degrades in normal charg mode (about 83%), they allow the expand the charge % at 1/2 the rate of the degradation.

So, at 10% degradation, the charge will go to 88%. At 30% degradation, the battery will charge to 95-99%, and this would be considered “end of life”.

The car can also charge on “extended” to 95-99% at any time, however, at 30% degradation, the normal and extended charges will be the same capacity.

scottf200

Re: Everyones happy up to about 100,000 miles.
But did you read this article on the 250,000 mile Volt with still great battery capacity?
http://insideevs.com/worlds-highest-mileage-volt-250000-mile-2012-chevrolet-volt/

Most states require an 8 year / 80,000 mile warranty for hybrid vehicle batteries, and 10 year / 150,000 miles in CARB states (pure EVs are 10 year / 100,000 miles, because everybody knows they can’t possibly drive as far as a hybrid).

TomArt

Tesla just increased their warranties to 8yrs/unlimited miles standard for all packs.

Anton Wahlman

@ Tony Williams

Stated differently, the battery degradation is approximately twice what it appears to be, if you are correct. I had heard the same from other expert Tesla battery people as well.

ModernMarvelFan

So how do you measure Volt’s battery degradation if you “never ever charge it to full”.

Yes, I agree that Volt only charges up to 80% of its battery.

But how does GM “open up” the range if the battery NEVER EVER charges up to full. How does GM know the degradation amount?

Are you claiming that GM just opens up the range based on some kind of “predicable” math formula? If so, then if the battery degradation is better than predicated, the owners should then notice an increase in range.

So, until someone who can explain the way to “measure battery degradation without full charge”, all your claims on GM opens up Volt battery capacity are just totally BS.

Pushmi-Pullyu

ModernMarvelFan said:

“until someone who can explain the way to ‘measure battery degradation without full charge’, all your claims on GM opens up Volt battery capacity are just totally BS.”

Contrary to what you apparently believe, ModernMarvelFan, your personal lack of understanding of a subject doesn’t limit the ability of others to discuss things intelligently.

Tesla limits its batteries to 95% charge; so their cells never reach 100% charge, either. I suppose you think that Tesla is also unable to design PEVs that can tell what the current state of charge of the battery pack is?

Unlike you, I don’t presume to know more than experts on the subject. But I do know that as battery cells are charged and discharged, their voltage rises and drops. Just guessing here, but measuring the voltage might be one way of determining current SOC (State Of Charge) of a battery pack. There might be other ways, too.

ModernMarvelFan

Before you claim that others dont’ know anything. You should have studied the question a bit more.

You answered how a SOC is measured. My question was how do you detect capacity degradation…

SOC can be easily measured by charge voltage which follows a steady curve. But degradation doesn’t unless you fully charge the battery.

If you never fully charge the battery, then how do you know your capacity has degraded? The voltage that you charge to will be far less than the degradation capped charge voltage.

So, learn something before you post anymore nonesense.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“SOC can be easily measured by charge voltage which follows a steady curve. But degradation doesn’t unless you fully charge the battery.”

Wrong. Clearly you don’t understand how degradation is measured, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done. Clearly it can be done, and you’re rather firmly ignoring the evidence for that.

“If you never fully charge the battery, then how do you know your capacity has degraded?”

All the onboard charger has to do is to measure the amount of energy that has been put into the battery pack, and compare that to the SOC (State Of Charge) which should be expected when the battery is new. If the SOC is higher than expected, then clearly the difference is the amount of degradation in capacity.

Again, this is done routinely and automatically by various EVs, without any need to charge the battery cells to 100%. Not just the Volt, but also the Leaf displays battery fade by the number of “bars” on the display.

It seems reasonable to assume other EV makers’ cars can also determine amount of battery fade. This ain’t rocket science, ModernMarvelFan. Just electrical engineering.

ModernMarvelFan
PuPu clueless dude said: “Wrong. Clearly you don’t understand how degradation is measured, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done. Clearly it can be done, and you’re rather firmly ignoring the evidence for that.” Said of someone who doesn’t know battery. LOL. “All the onboard charger has to do is to measure the amount of energy that has been put into the battery pack, and compare that to the SOC (State Of Charge) which should be expected when the battery is new. If the SOC is higher than expected, then clearly the difference is the amount of degradation in capacity.” The SOC is measured by the Voltage of which the battery is charged to. Without charging the battery to “full” and fully discharge, you won’t be able to “ACCURATELY” measure the amount of capacity lost. “Again, this is done routinely and automatically by various EVs, without any need to charge the battery cells to 100%. Not just the Volt, but also the Leaf displays battery fade by the number of “bars” on the display.” The number of bars won’t tell you accurately unless you fully charge a battery. If you don’t fully charge a battery, then explain to me… Read more »
Brian
For one thing, every EV made today has the ability to measure the amount of current into and out of its battery. Combined with the battery voltage, the car has a highly accurate “real time” picture of the amount of energy flowing into and out of the battery. It is no stretch at all to imagine that one could program the car to always pull X kWh out of the battery before entering CS mode. Another way to do it is simply to trigger off a low battery voltage. In reality, it is likely a combination of the two. So no, GM would not have to know the degradation ahead of time in order to open the charge window. Every single Volt *could* be programmed to do it in real time, based on its own measurements. *I do want to stress that just because they *could* do it, doesn’t mean they did. However, your claim seems to be that GM could not have programmed the Volt fleet to open its charge window over time. Without any word from GM themselves, I remain agnostic to this argument. And if it was found that they did open the window, that would not… Read more »
Brian

*And by “this argument”, I mean the discussion of whether GM did implement such a feature. I know that they could have done so.

ModernMarvelFan

Yes, the pre-programmed “opening up” is what others have suggested.

If GM does this, then the car with slower degradation would potentially see their capacity increase over time and those cars with faster degradation would see their capacity decreases faster.

Neither has been observed “yet”…

JakeY

The other thing is if you lose 1 mile of range in the Volt (which most people won’t notice), it is equivalent in degradation to losing 7 miles in a Tesla (which most people will notice, esp. given Tesla gives a display of range that isn’t tied to most recent drive, while the Volt doesn’t).

AFAIK there isn’t a way to measure degradation in the Volt as it doesn’t provide any sort of interface to do so (Roadster has CAC, Model S has rated range, Leaf has Gids).

ModernMarvelFan

Volt displays the kWh used per charges.

So, we know for sure that Volt uses up to 80% of the total capacity. If a Volt degrades beyond 20% of the total capacity, then the amount of kWh used per charge will shrink as the car can’t maintaine the bottom buffer anymore.

TomArt

Perhaps, but of course, the Roadster batteries are old tech.

John

I like what little I see and hear from Ghosn. He’s obviously a smart businessman. He seems as honest as he can be without giving away too much information so soon that it hurts the company, and it sounds like he’s after the best, no matter where it comes from. For now, that’s LG, but he sounds open to it being someone else in the future if they’re better. All good. Bring on the 200-mile range Leaf and let the fun begin.

Bonaire

+1 one what you said. Open and honest is how the EV developments should be. Including honestly when someone is found to be wrong with all their hype as with other firms. Remember when GM thought they would do 60,000 Volt sales per year by maybe 2013? 45k in N.A. and 15k rest of world? Or Tesla and their selective hype to appear “bigger than they are” while trying to grow into their words (see the book regarding early 2013 and the possible sale to Google if they didn’t make enough sales in Q1 2013 – and yet said nothing to the public).

Robb Stark

Said book said Tesla shut down the Fremont factory at the end of 2012 early 2013 for lack of Model S demand.

Never happened. Said book is full of bovine feces.

Speculawyer

What a ringing endorsement for the LEAF.

Anon

His honesty, in an industry that tends to shy away from hard facts, is really refreshing.

Seems like LG vs Tesla Gift… I get the impression I need to get some LG Battery Stocks.

Jeff Songster

Always refreshing to hear an honest assessment of products. I am really hopeful to see the next gens of his products soon. I like the idea of a 150 +mile van.

viktor uneus

Can someone tell me what’s better with LG Chem compere to the battery Panasonic is doing to Tesla?
According to the link below Panasonics battery have 630 Wh/liter compere to LG Shems 275. When it comes to Wh/kg Panasonics have 233 and LG Chem have 157. I now that this is maybe not the only thing that matters but I would like to now what it’s that makes LG Chem much better then Panasonics battery because density does matters in a electric car.

http://www.advancedautobat.com/industry-reports/2014-Tesla-report/Extract-from-the-Tesla-battery-report.pdf

Anonymous

Probably less volatile when a cell is penetrated.

LiMn is a more safe (stable?) chemistry.

JakeY

For the next gen batteries they are using NMC. On paper they are more thermally stable and can be made in large format cells, while NCA is still stuck in small format cells. Of course Tesla is quite happy using small format cells, but the large automakers all prefer large format.

Tech01x

Tesla’s specific energy is actually higher than that report. They also just came out with partial silicon anodes which should push the specific energy even higher.

LG is about to ship 2nd gen NMC which should push their specific energy into the low 200’s at maybe 50-75% higher cost than Tesla’s. It will make the Bolt and Leaf v2 possible.

Scott

Where do your cost figures come from?

Ambulator

I know the energy density is higher with the new Tesla batteries, but I have no idea whether the specific energy is higher.

Pushmi-Pullyu

viktor uneus asked:

“Can someone tell me what’s better with LG Chem compere to the battery Panasonic is doing to Tesla?”

Very simple: Cost per kWh

The Panasonic battery cells that Tesla is using have a significantly higher energy (and power) density than cells used in other EVs, but that comes at a higher cost.

Tesla is working hard to bring down their own per-kWh cost of battery cells, by building the Gigafactory. It looks like LG Chem has already made a breakthru in cost. At least, I presume it’s a significantly lower cost. Why else would all EV makers other than Tesla and BYD be flocking to LG Chem as a supplier? Even Nissan, which has its own battery factories.

A significantly lower per-kWh cost also explains why no less than three EV makers are all planning to sell nominally “200 mile” EVs starting in 2017. Lower cost per kwh means the EV makers can afford to put higher capacity (more kWh) battery packs into their cars.

viktor uneus

Isn’t many reporter convice that because of the patents Tesla have developed toghether with Panasonic that means you take away many of the protection on each cell and put it on the pack instead have make Tesla get the cheapest battery per kWh also or is that just before the new technology that LG Chems have now?

Pushmi-Pullyu

It’s true that the cells Panasonic makes for Tesla lack certain safety features found in consumer grade cells, and it’s true that this does lower Tesla’s costs somewhat. But that doesn’t mean that the per-kWh cost of Tesla cells are as low as what Nissan is using for the Leaf or that GM is using for the Volt.

So far as I know, Tesla is the only plug-in EV maker that isn’t focusing on the lowest possible per-kWh cost for batteries. Tesla gains an advantage with higher specific energy and specific power cells by being able to make cars which go farther and charge faster. If the cells Tesla used had as low a specific energy as current Leaf cells, then the Model S’s battery pack would have to be significantly larger and significantly heavier. This would affect the performance of the car and, more importantly, would cause it to be even more expensive because it would have to be even larger.

Robb Stark

Tesla does not have higher cost, in fact it is almost certainly lower.

Other manufactures won’t use Tesla/Panasonic cylinder cells because they believe pouch cells will soon see a price reduction that will price them lower than the Tesla cells.

In other words they see more cost cutting potential in pouch cells.

That has yet to translate to a production car.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Robb Stark said:

“Tesla does not have higher cost, in fact it is almost certainly lower.”

Well, that’s what I thought until maybe a year or so ago, when someone in an InsideEVs comment pointed me to some info rather strongly indicating otherwise. I don’t remember the source, though, and I’d certainly like to see some current estimates.

I see various recent articles claiming that Tesla’s per-kWh cost for battery cells is $180-200, which is lower than I thought. Can you point to any credible source which estimates the per-kWh price Nissan or GM is paying for its current production?

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

They signed MOUs with LG Chem. That means “We’ll try to do X, and you’ll try to do Y, and we both hit our goals then we’ll both put in the necessary investment to make and sell a bunch of electric cars.”

Tech01x

LG Chem has built quite a bit of battery manufacturing capacity that has been chronically underutilized, causing them to slip to single digits of marketshare. They are in a strange bind though. With about 6 GWh of battery building capacity on tap but really only shipping only a small fraction of that, they really can’t expand all that much. They can bring their existing plants up to nameplate capacity and they can expand in China for the Chinese market. It will be interesting to watch what happens as they have new chemistry and new products using that chemistry. But they likely won’t have the capacity of Panasonic/Tesla in 2018. All these automakers are still betting on a very small PHEV and BEV market through 2018.

Anon

It seems the biggest obstacle unleashing higher range, affordable BEVs, are automotive executives. Everyone else is just waiting for them to give the word…

Pushmi-Pullyu

Quoting the article:

“Taking the comments at face value, it appears Carlos Ghosn is saying that the “best battery maker” is LG over Nissan’s own in-house battery company it owns with NEC – the Automotive Energy Supply Corp, or AESC.

“We take the quote another way, that Nissan is saying that LG Chem is the best battery maker outside the company’s own internal supply chain in Japan, the UK and the United States.”

Why not take the comments at face value? Nissan recently had a rather public internal argument over whether or not to shut down its own battery making factories, or merely reduce their output a lot.

Nissan isn’t just saying LG Chem is the “best” battery maker; it’s putting its money where its mouth is by buying batteries from LG Chem in favor of making the batteries themselves.

However, I think the word “best” in this context is rather vague. By what criteria are LG Chem’s battery “best”? Apparently the new batteries from LG Chem are cheaper per kWh than anybody else’s. Perhaps they’re also better at tolerating high temperatures than the batteries Nissan has been using.

But I rather doubt Tesla or Panasonic would agree that LG Chem’s batteries are the “best” overall.

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Ghosn is saying “Hey NEC, hey our guys, we’re serious about electric cars, and if you can’t deliver the batteries we need, we’ll have to go elsewhere.”

Nissan makes significant use of internal competition. Since they can’t do that with batteries, LG Chem is there to compete with their joint-venture.

Just_Chris

Nissan via Renault have had a strong relationship with LG for years all he is saying is our partners are the best. That doesn’t mean Nissan’s in house capability is no good, Nissan may very well be licensing some battery related technology to LG, if this is the case they’ll be selling lg’s capability hard as it makes them money.

evnow

The big question is – if they are still debating the battery source – will Leaf 2 get delayed ?

Possibilities are
– Nissan has already contracted with LG but isn’t disclosing it
– Nissan will use internal batteries for Leaf 2 and get LG batteries later
– Leaf 2 will not come out in 2016/17

Pushmi-Pullyu

Looks to me more likely that Nissan has contracted with LG Chem for a battery supply for the Leaf 2.0, but is negotiating or has negotiated with LG Chem for a license to build similar cells in their own battery factories. So if that’s correct, then the initial cell supply will come from LG Chem, but Nissan hopes to shift most or all of its sourcing to in-house supply within a few years.

Of course I’m making some assumptions there, but it seems to be a rational business plan. I was rather concerned to see reports several months ago which suggested Nissan would be completely abandoning in-house production of Leaf batteries; this scenario would certainly be a lot better for future growth of plug-in EV sales.

evnow

You are going with possibility 1 above.

While Nissan having already contracted with LG is the most logical – the statements do not reflect that. Essentially Nissan’s statements about Leaf gen 2 are not consistent.

Pushmi-Pullyu

evnow said:

“While Nissan having already contracted with LG is the most logical –- the statements do not reflect that.”

True. My scenario is based not on fact, but on widely reported rumors; for instance, see link below. You’re right, it’s an assumption on my part. But EV makers are almost uniformly reluctant to discuss anything about the cells they use in their car, even to the point of refusing to discuss who their supplier is. Note that Tesla even refused to publicly acknowledge that Panasonic supplied their batteries, despite it being widely reported, until they needed to partner with Panasonic for the Gigafactory.

Here is an article from Sept. 2014 speculating that Nissan was contracting with LG Chem for cells for its next generation of plug-in EVs:

Pushmi-Pullyu
Scott Franco, the greedy republican

Humm, I ran this through the “google weasel translator”:

“We have opened to competition our battery business in order to make sure we have the best batteries. For the moment, we consider that the best battery maker is LG.”

I got:

“we suck at making batteries”

Pushmi-Pullyu

I suppose you think an athlete who “only” earns a silver Olympic medal in his sport sucks at his sport, too.

Your thinking appears to be rather binary.

Goaterguy

Says the CEO of the company that just settled a class-action lawsuit because of the lacking performance of their batteries.
Grain of salt people, grain of salt…

Pushmi-Pullyu

I guess you missed the part where Ghosn is talking about batteries Nissan is going to be using in the Leaf 2.0… not the ones it used in the 2011-2 Leaf which were so temperature sensitive, and not even the ones currently in use in the latest Leafs.

Goaterguy

I didn’t, my point is about taking the opinion of the CEO on who’s best with a grain of salt. My comment had nothing to do with the comparison of the early Gen 1 batteries vs. the Gen 2 that haven’t even been to the market yet.

Pete

My fear is LG does better batterys than anybody else and they get a “monopol”.

To some extent LG Chem is doing good such as separator, cathode and electrolytes just as what they commented, however, to be the best battery maker, I think they still have a long way to go, though Nissan CEO thought they’ re the best.