The New LEAF To Get New 150 kW DC Fast Charging Infrastructure Via DBT

JUN 17 2017 BY MARK KANE 49

The new 2018 Nissan LEAF is going to need more than the standard 50 kW DC fast chargers of today can offer the outgoing model.

And while we have yet to hear any specs of significance on the new LEAF (other than some spyshot of mules out testing, and a quick teaser from Nissan), we can say that French charging infrastructure provider DBT has signed a new contract with Nissan Europe to introduce and install the next generation of 150 kW fast chargers for the new LEAF throughout Europe.

DBT charging station

Does this mean the new LEAF will be charging at 150 kW out of the box?  We hardly think so.  But it does indicate the new LEAF’s DCFC abilities will be much improved.

Since 2013, DBT has delivered and maintained 2,100 fast chargers in 36 European countries in partnership with Nissan Europe.

The new contract covers new units, but is mainly about upgrading the entire current fleet of DC fast charging stations to 150 kW.

DBT will evolve the first models of fast chargers installed over the past four years, and adapt their performance to increasing power requirements, in line with a range of 300 to 400km (186-249 miles) per vehicle, in about fifteen minutes of charge” says DBT.

New DBT chargers dubbed QCNG 50/150 (NG150 series – see full details here) are equipped with CHAdeMO, CCS Combo and AC Type 2 plugs to handle all kinds of electric vehicles.

First deliveries of the 150 kW units are expected in September – which is also when the new 2018 LEAF debuts in Tokyo – on September 6th (which is the 5th in most other places).  DBT will also keep maintain the chargers for further 4 years.

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49 Comments on "The New LEAF To Get New 150 kW DC Fast Charging Infrastructure Via DBT"

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Brett

Liquid Schwartz!

Pete

Thats great news, looks like Nissan is on the right path with the new LEAF.

drpawansharma

If true, this would also provide a point of difference with Bolt.

seth

The word isn’t out what connector the new Leaf will use. We think it will be CCS/US or CCS/EU, but if they stick with ChaDeMo it could seriously affect the market.

If it does use CCS it would also give the Bolt access to faster charging, although the value would be small, it already tapers at 60% and hovers around 40kW at most existing chargers.

Brandon

Seriously?? You think Nissan would switch to CCS now?

ricegf

I certainly think Nissan will switch to CCS for fast charging *eventually*. One socket is better than two. It’s that obvious.

I hope they’re smart enough to do it now (except in Japan), but they probably are not. *sigh*

Brandon

Yeah, I guess we’ll see. But Nissan has invested a lot in CHAdeMO.

SparkEV

Actually, there are 3 sockets. If Nissan is switching, they might as well go with Tesla Supercharger. There’d be no need to make / deploy Chademo or CCS when Superchargers are in good spots for distance travel already.

In addition, there’s Chademo charger to Supercharger car adapter made by Tesla. Then Nissan having supercharger port doesn’t lose the ability for existing Chademo by bundling the $500 adapter.

Brave Lil' Toaster

Haha. That’s a nice fantasy – Nissan switching to Tesla superchargers.

I figure it’s right up there with the Toronto Maple Leafs bringing home the cup.

Robert Weekley

I would love to see them Keep CHAdeMO, & ADD CCS! It (Physically) is just the addition of two pins to the J1772 L2 Socket under the charging door!

Sure, Electronically, it might be harder than that, but short of adding a direct Tesla Supercharging option, that would give them access to all Legacy CHAdeMO, And CCS Charging stations, too!

THAT is probably the best way for them to step up their game, and be better than others, at least in North America and places that use the current J1772 plug for L2!

Maybe for Europe, with their MENEKES plug, this might be harder, but they already know what it woud take, and could Engineer a fit for that in a similar way!

Scott

It would make a lot of sense for Nissan to replace Chademo with CCS (combo 2) for the european market.

Renault (part of the nissan-renault alliance) has already announced its intention to include CCS support on the next gen Zoe.

Laws in europe will require every new public fast charger to include CCS ports (This will mean tesla can’t build supercharge only stations anymore too). So there is no chance of Chademo gaining unsurpassable market penetration in europe.

Going for a type 2 (three phase) AC plug rather than the J1772 (type 1) would also be very useful if the new leaf has a big battery pack. Large single phase loads are hard to accommodate where the primary power supply is three phase.

Note the above doesn’t apply in japan where J1772 & Chademo have a near monopoly.

Brian_Henderson

DC is DC …. how the vehicles talk chargers is just a protocol.

In the future the protocol communications will be wireless as vehicles are increasingly becoming wirelessly connected. The high amp power (energy flowing) will still require a 2-wire conductor … the unknown is what pin-out these future connectors will use … likely neither CCS (type1 or type2), CHAdeMO, or current Tesla comnnector.

One thing is for sure, it will be designed to be small and easy to use like the current Tesla connector (unless political trolls get in the way)

Scott

CCS is future proofed to 350kW (350A at 1000V DC).

It is doubtful we will need more than this charging power in the next few decades (for light vehicles anyway).

As you say, the comms protocol isn’t that important. As such, for europe, we might as well stick with the plug type and protocol we have. European regulators have selected as CCS as the chosen fast standard for there area (no fast charging stations can be built without CCS in europe).

Regarding plug size, i don’t think bulk is an issue. The fast charging cables are stored gas pump style. The socket on the car is small enough to fit under a normal gas filler cap (unlike the nissan leaf’s chademo & J1772 ports)

Regarding the tesla supercharger plug, in europe this is a modified Type 2 connector (with longer pins to allow for approxx 120kW DC power via the otherwise disused “DC Mid” pin configertaion). This is no good for future higher charge rates as there is no spare capacity.

zzzzzzzzzz

All the new open standard chargers have both Chademo and CCS plugs. It makes totally no difference now what Nissan will choose, it will work the same. The only difference would be for Nissan itself, to support multiple connector types in different markets, and for used car buyers thinking about importing US spec cars.

Brandon

True. And the cost difference of having both CHAdeMO and CCS plugs on a fast charger versus just one of them is around 10% of the price of a fast charger.

unlucky

It tapers after 60% at some point.

I have actual proof.

Brian_Henderson

Seriously … Nissan using CCS?

Anyone starting this has totally ignored the hundreds of CHAdeMO chargers Nissan invested in deployments in North America and Europe (not just Japan).

jim stack

The Battery heats up and loses 5-10% capacity in our Phoenix Area summer heat. Faster Fast Charging will make that even worse.
All the Nissan Dealers also turn their Fast Chargers down to 18 kW rates so they don’t get a big bill for electric use. So 150 kW won’t mean anything.

seth

Quite the opposite for some chemistries, where exposing the battery to charging for a shorter period is beneficial. It’s a tradeoff.

Slow charging in heat is definitely not recommended, but hardly something you can escape from when you charge at home.

The Original Leaf chemistry didn’t help in the slightest though, and the Leaf wasn’t the only one. I found the PDF from testing the Mitsubishi i-MiEV and it lost similar amounts in heat. Some others, namely Tesla with the NCA chemistry which has great shelf life has far less issues, but can not deliver as much power, which doesn’t matter because the battery was huge.

Brandon

Jim, I wouldn’t put much value in fast chargers at dealers anyway. They are unreliable to say the least!!

I would say that in 3 years we’ll have decent nationwide 150 kW fast charge infrastructure located at good locations like convenience stores/gas stations and others in parking lots next to food options and 24 hour access to restrooms.

Stimpacker

How much are you willing to pay?

The current eVgo model of charging $10 for barely 20kWh is ridiculous. That’s more than paying for gas, plus the wait. Only free time-limited charge cards from Nissan creates demand.

SparkEV

$10/20kWh is the maximum rate. If you charge more than 2 times a month, it’s cheaper to get OTG, which becomes $3/20 kWh (assuming no taper). OTG membership fee gets amortized over number of charge sessions. If you use DCFC 3 times a month, it’d be $8/20 kWh. That’s $8 for about 80 miles ($0.10/mile), about that of 30 MPG gas car when gas is $3/gal.

Brandon

Actually I don’t think you have much of a point on costs.

$10 for a 30 minute session that gives you 20 kWh comes to $0.50 per kWh.

Last year I did some research of the prices that fast charge infrastructure providers charge around the world, and the average per kWh cost comes to $0.70.

EVgo is a bit high, especially for a slower charging LEAF, but it’s really not much more than the norm in many many places.

And, free charging has its issues, as regular commenters on here will know from our friend Spark EV.

JoeS.

Seth, regarding the capacity loss in the i-MiEV, there has been a negligible capacity loss noted in the i-MiEV battery packs over these last five years in the i-MiEV community, even in packs that predate the mid-2012 cell upgrade. What is the source of the PDF you referenced?

Someone out there

With a 38 kWh battery, what’s the point? It will taper off immediately anyway. But for other cars with proper batteries I’m sure it will be welcome

Michael

seriously?

Internet speculation is not fact, especially if you are referring to that youtuber video of a guy who “knows a guy”

And we already know the new leaf is going to have two battery options, so why dont you just keep your pants on wait a few weeks before casting judgement rather than spreading baseless speculation on how the leaf is gonna charge? you really think they are upgrading all those stations to 150kW for the benefit of other evs?

Someone out there

As far as we know for now it will be 38 kWh.
The charging station provides 1×150 kW or 3×50 kW. There is nothing that says the 150 kW is for Nissan, more likely is that their interest in the cooperation with DBT lies in securing the CHAdeMO interface on the device.

Jay Cole
Just as a note, we saw that report (and several others so far this year – many (if not all) saying something a different) and we didn’t find the info reliable enough to pass on. The person who came up with the 38 kWh number used his own math based on an expectation of Nissan’s entry level battery, and the company switching to reporting usable capacity over total capacity. So we imagine the likelihood of an actual “38 kWh” battery being announced in September quite low (although it certainly could have an option in that ballpark). The unofficial word/scuttlebutt is that Nissan will have two battery options on the new LEAF, but that regionally the larger option won’t be available in the 2018 MY year. However, and while the sources/frequency of these various similar reports seem credible, InsideEVs is not passing that around as fact (or even open speculation in an article), because if one comes out and continually says “the LEAF will be this, or that…” and then that story changes a half dozen times, then it seriously damages the credibility of the site. Something we are keen to do. We feel this latest story is more than likely… Read more »
Someone out there

Yeah that is a good stance for a publication.
We’ll get the actual spec in two months time but the 38 kWh figure also fits with the “Nissan Targets 342-Mile*/550 KM LEAF By 2020” story you posted a while back, in which user Phr00t posted a link to a diagram that says 350-400 km in 2018, which on the JC08 cycle becomes about 140 miles EPA. So more than one thing points to the next LEAF having a small battery.
If there will indeed be more than one battery option I guess that is what is coming in 2020 then.

Jay Cole

Yeah, I don’t personally have any issue with the basic premise/ballparking and sizing of the pack in that report…its similar to the same scuttlebutt we have heard for over a year, which is also kinda why it gives one pause, as there really isn’t any “new” information, just repackaging of what is the basic assumption.

If one is going to have a couple battery pack sizes, and we have already seen a very completed/working and production ready 60 kWh pack (via LG/Renault-Nissan engineers with the IDS Concept), its seems like a ~40 kWh would be a good alternate sizing (and/or along with keeping the 30 kWh pack – I mean why not, you just starting make those and its ready to go for the cheapest option)

Pushmi-Pullyu

“…you really think they are upgrading all those stations to 150kW for the benefit of other evs?”

Speaking for myself, I really think that Nissan is looking ahead to future EVs (Leafs or not) which actually can use 150 kW charging. It seems very unlikely that the new Leaf will have a battery pack that large. And so far as I know, Nissan is stupidly sticking to passive cooling, which means even with a Tesla-sized pack, the new Leaf couldn’t charge at 150 kW for more than a few minutes.

Now of course, nothing I’ve said here is proven fact, but it’s certainly the most likely set of assumptions and conclusions based on available evidence.

If we were restricted in discussions to only statements of proven fact, Michael, then it would be a pretty dull conversation. So I think you’re trying to set the bar unreasonably high.

Just_Chris

The Nissan Leaf had a 24 kWh pack and charges at 50 kW. Why wouldn’t a Nissan Leaf with a 75 kWh pack charge at 150 kW? Also, everyone is expecting the 150 kW chargers to be for leaf 2.0. It is very conceivable that the charging stations won’t be in place for 18 months by which point Nissan could release something higher end to compete with the model 3. There are even outside left field things like Nissan introducing a new battery chemistry such as LTO that might only give you a 40ish kWh battery but that can charge in less than 15 min.

Pushmi-Pullyu
“The Nissan Leaf had a 24 kWh pack and charges at 50 kW.” The forum discussion linked below would seem to cast strong doubt on your assertion. Perhaps the Leaf can charge at 50 kW for a few minutes (alto one comment claims 48 kW is the limit), but it seems the car’s electronics (BMS?) will taper off the charging pretty quickly at that level, due to overheating. Given the lack of active cooling in the Leaf battery pack, that’s exactly what we should expect. I’ll stick to my assertions, thanks. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=16150 “Why wouldn’t a Nissan Leaf with a 75 kWh pack charge at 150 kW?” I’ll believe in a Leaf with a 75 kWh battery pack if and when Nissan announces it, and not before. And I don’t think it’s credible to claim that Nissan would pay for installing a charging 150 kW charging system which could only charge their cars at that level for a few minutes — if even that — before tapering off the charging. That would be mostly a waste of money. So again, I’ll stick to my assertion that this is Nissan planning ahead to future cars, beyond the Leaf 2.0, which can charge… Read more »
William

It will have a 38 kWh battery? You might want to keep that thought until September, when Nissan brings a bit larger than a 38 kWh pack to the 2018 Leaf 2.0.

wavelet

Noone heew knows, obviously. IMO it’s possible that the low end battery option is 38kWh — if the LEAF has the same efficiency as the Ioniq, that should be good for 150-160EPA range, which will be enough for practically everyone for local daily driving, even in cold weather & freeway speeds.
I can see Nissan caring very much about volume sales, so not about to give all the cars a (say) 60kWh battery.

ricegf

38 kW with a 57 kW option would be logical. That would give the latter a solid 200+ mile range, which is the minimum for long distance travel. But we won’t know until September.

jmk

Ioniq tapers only at 85% or so to 20kW, which it pulls almost to the end at 94%.

Unplugged

It will be interesting to see how a passive cooled battery will handle DCFC at anywhere near the rate of 150 kW.

seth

I sincerly doubt it will still be passive. I can understand the Leaf refresh didn’t change it because it would have required a new cooling system the original model Leaf, that’s too large of a retrofit. So even the 30kWh model didn’t get it.

Even with basic air conditioning and using that for cooling the battery you’d be fine. That’s what the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, Renault Zoe and Kia Soul use. Going full liquid cooling isn’t required perse, but air cooling brings other issues, like water ingress.

Pushmi-Pullyu

The i-MiEV uses the cabin A/C loop to cool the battery pack?

Do you have a citation for that? Last I heard, the i-MiEV was using forced air cooling. A bit better than Nissan’s passive cooling, but not by much, as Seth noted in his comment above.

Magnus

Nissan already uses active cooling in their e-nv200. Same size battery and same powertrain as the Leaf.

DJ

It will keep you nice and toasty come winter time when you are waiting in your car for it to charge 🙂

hpver

They already have a history of problems with their batteries in high ambient temperatures, and they’ve refused to commit to active liquid cooling to fix this. So I have to wonder how the heck they think their battery is going to handle the heat of 150 kW charging in hot weather. Or are they just going to ignore those factors like they did with the first gen models.

I gave Nissan every chance. Leased a Leaf for more than 3 years. Good car. Terrible battery. Worse company if they don’t fix the battery issues.

This is one place where their continued silence is hurting them.

Bill Howland

“Nissan dealers cut the charge rate to 18 kw to avoid big electric bills”

Rather lets the air out of the balloon as far as 150 kw charging rate, huh?

Brandon

Yeah, personally I don’t see much value in fast chargers located at Nissan dealers. There are much better locations to be had that will be open 24/7, close to food and restrooms, and be multi stall 150 kW ChargePoint Express Plus fast charger style setups that are high power and reliable. In 3 years (summer 2020) I predict we’ll have 300-400 such locations across the U.S. A year ago I wrote an article that give a look at this type of network.

http://insideevs.com/op-ed-next-gen-fast-charge-networks/

Daniel Fearns

Why would the Leaf have a 38kwh battery when the Zoe has 41kwh?

Mark

If they are reporting usable vs actual size, this would make sense, giving the battery a 3 kWh buffer, just like the 24 kWh and 30 kWh batteries also have a buffer.

AlphaEdge

Different car, different company, different engineers.

Anyway, way too much speculation going on here. We don’t know.

Brian_Henderson

For anyone wondering what BEVs already support CHAdeMO at greater that 50 kw.

Add Kia Soul EV to the list, having support up to 100 kW. Has already be demonstrated in Norway (believe at IKEA located DC chargers).