Musk Promises “Major Increases” In Tesla Supercharger & Urban Charging Network Over Next Several Months

3 months ago by Eric Loveday 68

Superchargers In North America

Tesla CEO Elon Musk is promising that we’ll see “major increases” in Tesla Superchargers and the supporting urban charging network in the U.S. in the coming months.

Though Tesla’s U.S. Supercharger network is vast and extensive, there are still lots of holes here and there that need plugging.

Musk seems to acknowledge this in a recent Tweet:

Musk Tweet

Tesla has been working on expanding highly used Supercharger sites, as well as adding new Supercharger throughout the U.. and Canada. However, this latest Tweet seems to indicate that Tesla will put a new focus on urban chargers, which up to now only exist in select cities in the U.S. The vast majority of Superchargers are located in slightly remotes areas, generaly outside city limits and just off highways.

Urban fast chargers would be a welcome addition to what’s already the leading charging network in the world. the Tesla charging network, that is.

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68 responses to "Musk Promises “Major Increases” In Tesla Supercharger & Urban Charging Network Over Next Several Months"

  1. SparkEV says:

    Urban charging, so, guys who drive for Uber/Lyft/Maven can sit at the chargers? Clever solution is needed, not simply adding chargers.

    1. M Hovis says:

      I think that clever thing is autopilot. I am a bit old school and like a HUD and USB to plug things in. That doesn’t mean technology will comply with me forever. I also look forward to the day that legislation allows Tesla and others to remove their side mirrors so like the Italian driver stated in Cannon Ball Run, “What’s behind me is not important.”

    2. Nick says:

      Just make sure you build for demand. Uber and Lyft drivers in EVs are better for everyone, even if they inconvenience people from time to time.

      1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        Tesla’s cars were never intended to use Superchargers for everyday charging, and in fact it has now been acknowledged by Tesla that if you use Supercharging too much, their cars will reduce charging speed to prevent the battery pack from aging too fast.

        But more to the point, the stated and intended purpose of the Supercharger network is to support long-distance travel. To allow Uber/Lyft drivers to use the system for a fast recharge during a work shift is a gross misuse of the system. Every Uber or Lyft driver whose Tesla car is sitting at a Supercharger, is one Supercharger which can’t be used for its intended purpose, not to mention driving up Tesla’s expense in paying for the electricity.

        I very much hope that Tesla will ban all such commercial, for-profit use of its Supercharger network, which was never intended to support commercial use. In fact, it amazes me that Tesla has not already banned such use.

        1. Nick says:

          I agree with your interpretation of Tesla’s original goals for the super charger network.

          I hope they switch to explicitly allowing for profit use, while charging for it. Should still be less than gas, and is better for all of us.

    3. Mil says:

      Why does it matter if they are using the chargers? If they have a Tesla then they are entitled to use the chargers. If they’re plugged in and non-charging then they’ll get stung with idle fees.

      1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        Because of the “Tragedy of the Commons” situation. Promoting use for everyday charging would quickly make that situation far worse.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

    4. CDAVIS says:

      @SparkEV said: “Urban charging, so, guys who drive for Uber/Lyft/Maven can sit at the chargers? Clever solution is needed, not simply adding chargers….”
      ———–

      FYI, a clever solution has already been implemented by Tesla:

      There is no longer much “charger sitting” happening at Tesla Superchargers because Tesla a while back updated the Tesla Supercharging Software on all Tesla cars to automatically charge a $0.40/minute “Idle Fee” to any Tesla car that sits at a Tesla Supercharger after the charge is completed.

      But “Charger Sitting” does often remain an issue at many non-Tesla charge points.

      1. Jason says:

        I wont speak for SparkEV, but I think what he meant by uber/lyft drivers “sitting” at the superchargers is that they are sitting there charging for free several times a day, seeing as they have free unlimited supercharging for the life of their (often CPO) model s/x cars. Heck, if I was an uber/lyft driver, that’s exactly what i would do: Buy a used Tesla model s with free unlimited supercharging and become an uber Black car; you get a higher fee and never pay for gas. Rinse and repeat. Doesnt take a Genius – Tesloop is taking advantage of this in Califonia as well, ferrying people from LA to Vegas with zero fuel cost.

        1. SparkEV says:

          Of course, free is the worst.

          But I’m also talking about paid to charge. If the fee is per kWh, there’s no penalty for the driver to sit at supercharger when it has tapered down to almost L2 rate. They could even take a nap in the car while charging so slowly, which many seem to do. Last I read, Tesla’s plan was to charge by kWh.

          If something clever is not implemented before mass Tesla 3 sales, urban superchargers will be hopelessly clogged, maybe even the ones away from the city; there are lots of ridesharing driver out there.

          And let’s not forget that some companies can offer their “employees” free supercharging, like what Maven is doing with Bolt. That will be double hopelessly clog up the superchargers after mass Tesla 3 sales.

        2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          Jason:

          “Buy a used Tesla model s with free unlimited supercharging and become an uber Black car; you get a higher fee and never pay for gas. Rinse and repeat.”

          Indeed, and well said, sir.

          Tesla should have instituted Terms of Use for using Superchargers from the beginning, and should have banned this sort of commercial use from the start.

          It amazes me that — so far as I know — Tesla still has not banned commercial use of its Superchargers. That was not what they were built for, and such use is surely part of the reason some Superchargers have a waiting line much of the time.

        3. CDAVIS says:

          @Jason said:”…“Buy a used Tesla model s with free unlimited supercharging and become an uber Black car; you get a higher fee and never pay for gas. Rinse and repeat…”
          ——–

          Would be interesting to know how much Uber/Lyft drivers that drive Tesla’s are using Tesla Superchargers as you describe.

          Ultimately the Uber driver is going to do what is most economically beneficial to him/her.

          My doing back-of-napkin math I’m thinking the lost-opportunity-cost associated with the extra non-paid miles deiven and added non-paid time spent (Uber driver gets paid miles + time) driving to/from Tesla Superchargers between rides for a “free” charge is greater than the $ value of the free electricity they would get at the Supercharger. Most Uber drivers drive less than 150 miles/day and they generally hang/park near their last drop-off for the next pick-up in order to optimize “paid miles” and minimize “non-paid miles”.

          Perhaps what would be economically beneficial for some Uber drivers is to start their shift at a Tesla Supercharger while they are catching a meal or waiting for their first ride.

          1. SparkEV says:

            “My doing back-of-napkin math”

            People are not rational with their time. You can see from all the Leaf and i3 drivers that get free charging. While the car already has way over 70% and tapered to hell, they still sit there for full 30 minutes to squeeze out every last bit of “free”.

            While ridesharing drivers may not get free supercharging (or some will by buying used Tesla S), that irrational “must plug-in to the bitter end” will persist if current Maven Bolt drivers are any indication, especially if there’s no customer available at the time.

        4. Nix says:

          I can’t imaging a better per-dollar marketing spend for Tesla than making the Tesla Model S the go-to choice for Uber Black cars.

          What a perfect way to get potential car buyers to take a ride in a Model S and find out how quiet and peaceful it can be inside an all-electric car.

          Sitting all day at a charger while signed into Uber or Lyft will likely end up leaving you sitting at a charger all day. Both apps route the closest car to a fare to the fare’s location. You can’t just sit in a distant parking lot and expect to pick up fares.

          1. SparkEV says:

            With proliferation of “urban superchargers”, they won’t be distant parking lots. Drivers have to wait for a call, and they could be plugged in at supercharger even if they already have 90% charge already, like some Maven Bolt drivers are doing currently. That’s what’s causing much of congestion in San Diego lately.

            Now instead of few dozen Maven Bolt drivers, imagine 100 times that number of Tesla 3 drivers working for Lyft/Uber. Even if superchargers become as numerous as CCS/Chademo in urban areas, they will be hopelessly clogged.

  2. Victor says:

    The supercharging network that Tesla has now and will have in the future give Tesla a huge advantage over all other Electric car manufacturer. Tesla cars are superior to all other electric cars out there in the same price range, but even if they were not the supercharging network would have made up the difference. I have a Chevy Volt and a few weeks ago I went to a wildlife refuge Center in Laurel Maryland. There was a chargepoint level 2 charger there. I didn’t have an account with chargepoint so I called the number on the service equipment. They tried to get the charger started but they couldn’t. They told me they can give me another location where I could find a charger. I told them nevermind, it wasn’t a big problem because the Chevy Volt can run on gas also. Next year my lease is up on the Chevy Volt. My next car will be the Tesla Model 3 and all my future purchases will be Teslas until there’s a robust charging infrastructure out there to compete with Tesla. Because Tesla charging infrastructure is good and getting better I feel comfortable buying the model 3 with the smaller battery, this saves me $9,000.

    1. ffbj says:

      I think of it as a Modern Marvel.

    2. InvaderC1 says:

      Chargepoint is fairly easy to use and sign up. I signed up for both ChargePoint and Blink in the car before using their systems respectively. The apps don’t really bog down my phone and unlocking the units are pretty quick. The blink one was a bit more annoying, but I now have a card I keep in my car for each of these types of stations.

      1. Stimpy says:

        Ok but surely you would agree that not having to deal with multiple networks at all is a far superior solution?

        Imagine if each gas station required a membership before you could use the pump. It’s insanity and there’s no reason for it at all.

        1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          Yeah. Not being able to use a standard credit card, like pay-at-the-pump gas pumps, is just crazy. The fact you can’t use an ordinary credit card to pay is one symptom of the fact that competition doesn’t really exist yet for public EV chargers.

        2. (⌐■_■) Trollnonymous says:

          “Imagine if each gas station required a membership before you could use the pump. It’s insanity and there’s no reason for it at all.”

          Seriously, why does one even need to be a member of a “Network”.

          I don’t need to be a member of any network when I pay for street parking at the POS (pint of sale) pole next to the street.

        3. Nix says:

          Electric chargers are victims of their own low cost per charging session compared to gas.

          The problem comes from single credit card charges typically having minimum per-transaction fees charged by the clearing bank. Those charges make small dollar amount purchases have a larger percentage

          With a gas car, you are typically paying enough that these fees are a small percent of total purchases.

          But with doing errands around town and topping up at every opportunity, you would have many more much smaller transactions. That kills profits.

          Cards for charging networks exist because it may make sense when only charging for half an hour and pay a much smaller amount than if you were filling up an empty gas tank.

          1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

            The credit card transaction fee could be easily dealt with by having a minimum charge for plugging in.

            And given the ridiculously high fees reported for some chargers — Blink comes to mind — it’s hard to believe that the fees generated are so low that it’s not worth paying the credit card transaction fee for using such chargers.

    3. CDAVIS says:

      @Victor said: “The supercharging network that Tesla has now and will have in the future give Tesla a huge advantage over all other Electric car manufacturer…”
      ———-

      100% correct.

      My hope is that the traditional car makers sooner rather than later figure out a way to provide their EV offerings similar or better access to a convenient & reliable Supercharging Network…if not Tesla will for a long while be the only EV player for anyone wanting to purchase an EV unconstrained by travel distance.

      1. (⌐■_■) Trollnonymous says:

        Reliable is the key.
        I have been to spots where only half of the chargers were working, The Cahd DCFC were offline and the L2’s would not “Talk” and not charge.
        Even some Chargepoint spots where I called, they couldn’t activate the EVSE’s, same with Blink and other carriers.

        That said, I rely more on home and work charging.

  3. ffbj says:

    Tesla continues to surge upwards with positive notes that it’s Model 3 will appreciate much greater demand. Also the bond deal, was probably one of best ones ever for a company, not so good for bond buyers, flimsy covenants.

  4. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

    What is a Tesla “urban charger”? Is that the same thing as a destination charger?

    1. ffbj says:

      I think it’s an umbrella term for all chargers within the urban environment, with destination chargers being a subcategory, but generally it will mean sc, located within the city and other fast charging. Just a guess.

    2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      To answer my own question…

      According to an Electrek article:

      The automaker updated its Supercharger expansion plans earlier this year with a shift in their strategy.

      Beyond just expanding the network with a goal to have 10,000 Superchargers by the end of the year, they shifted the goal of the network from primarily enabling long-distance travel to also facilitating urban travel or even owners without driveways or garages.

      https://electrek.co/2017/08/10/tesla-major-expansion-urban-charging-network-elon-musk/

      I fervently hope what Electrek is reporting is wrong! An attempt to market Tesla cars as not needing home (or work) charging can’t help but create a backlash against both Tesla and the EV revolution, as people realize that trying to depend on a public charger for everyday charging is at best very inconvenient, and more likely simply makes it impossible to depend on using a BEV for daily transportation needs.

      Encouraging people to use Superchargers (whether located in “urban” areas or not) to replace daily at-home (or at-work) charging also promotes unnecessary clogging of the system, increasing the “tragedy of the commons” situation.

      🙁 🙁 🙁

      People who can’t charge at home or at work should not buy a plug-in EV. Period.

      1. x says:

        You’re wrong, some people have to live in apartments (that’s what’s available/affordable), and most people can’t charge at work, it’s not that they’re lazy to charge at home.
        I think Tesla is right to install SC in urban areas to address a bigger market. Charge a fee per charge and it will be ok

        1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          There seems to be an undeclared assumption in what you’re writing; the assumption that even this early in the EV revolution, that everyone “should” be able to drive a plug-in EV.

          That’s just not how it works. Our culture will have to change before that happens, before every place that people park cars overnight, or long-term, has an EV slow charger within reach.

          This will be less of a change than happened in the previous transportation revolution, the switch from the horse-and-buggy era to the motorcar era. Back then, “early adopters” of motorcars faced a similar problem. Apartment dwellers would have had no place to park their motorcar!

          Plug-in EVs are not for everyone. Someday they will be, but not now.

      2. (⌐■_■) Trollnonymous says:

        “People who can’t charge at home or at work should not buy a plug-in EV. Period.”

        +1

        1. 2013VOLT says:

          That is ridiculous, then what should they buy then? An ICE running on fossil fuels? How is that a better solution.

          1. (⌐■_■) Trollnonymous says:

            Buy something that makes more sense for them?

            Not that hard of a concept. If you don’t have the means to recharge it then all you will do is B[tch and complain that there’s no place for you to charge at home. That give’s EV’s a bad rap simply because someone made a dumb@s$ decision.

            Scenarios like this remind of this one stupid neighbor kid that has 2 kids under 2 and went and bought a Mustang convertible as a “Family car”.

            1. 2013VOLT says:

              Eh, I have 2 small children and I bought a Volt as a family car. Does that make me stupid too? Car seems to work pretty well for my family. Also, if you want to spur mass EV adoption you need to make charging accessible to people who do not have access to home charging. Otherwise EV vehicles will always be a niche market.

              1. (⌐■_■) Trollnonymous says:

                “Does that make me stupid too?”

                Bruh, you bought a hatchback with room for a stroller and diaper bags. Nothing wrong with that. Plus you bought a PHEV. No need to charge right?

                Have you ever been in a Mustang convertible?

                ” if you want to spur mass EV adoption you need to make charging accessible”

                Tell that to GM, Ford, FCA et all…..
                None of them want to invest in ‘make charging accessible’ but they will fight to lobby against emissions control…
                http://insideevs.com/ceos-of-gm-ford-and-fca-call-again-to-review-emission-regulations/

                I bet the cost of the fight could bring online at least 8,000+ L2 chargers.

                1. 2013VOLT says:

                  “Tell that to GM, Ford, FCA et all…..
                  None of them want to invest in ‘make charging accessible’ but they will fight to lobby against emissions control…
                  http://insideevs.com/ceos-of-gm-ford-and-fca-call-again-to-review-emission-regulations/

                  I bet the cost of the fight could bring online at least 8,000+ L2 chargers.”

                  I can’t argue with that which is very unfortunate.

              2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

                2013VOLT said:

                “Eh, I have 2 small children and I bought a Volt as a family car. Does that make me stupid too?”

                I dunno; did you buy a Volt without being able to charge it either at home or at work? I’m guessing that no, you weren’t that stupid.

                “Also, if you want to spur mass EV adoption you need to make charging accessible to people who do not have access to home charging. Otherwise EV vehicles will always be a niche market.”

                I entirely agree; we should work to change our culture, campaigning and lobbying for EV charging points to be installed everywhere people park overnight and long-term. But until that cultural change happens, it’s just not going to be practical for some people to drive PEVs.

          2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

            “That is ridiculous, then what should they buy then? An ICE running on fossil fuels? How is that a better solution.”

            Nobody claimed it’s “better” to drive a gasmobile; it’s merely that for some people, it’s impractical to drive a PEV (Plug-in EV). Pretending that’s not so isn’t going to change anything.

            This isn’t about “right vs. wrong”; this is about practical vs. impractical.

            We can each individually work on changing the situation at the local level, by trying to persuade individual landlords to install L2 chargers in their apartment parking lots, or at least to allow their tenants to install them. We can also lobby our local zoning committees to require installation of EV charge points in all newly constructed parking lots. We can lobby our State Representatives and Senators to pass laws requiring EV chargers to be installed in all newly constructed parking lots, and curbside in residential areas where people park on the street.

            But let’s not pretend that being able to charge a plug-in EV overnight wherever you live is a “right”. Because it’s not; it’s a privilege. Just like driving a car.

        2. Bob Nickson says:

          People who can’t refuel at home or at work should not buy an ICE vehicle. Period.

          1. (⌐■_■) Trollnonymous says:

            If there were no regulations against someone holding 25+ gallons of gas for their SUV at home then sure. But that’s not the case is it smart guy?

            Can _you_ store 25 Gallons of Gas at home without violating any regulations?
            The EPA discourages 5 gallons or more and the NFPA limites at 25 gallons but more importantly your local fire codes will dictate your limit. In New York City, 2.5 gallons is your max.

            But you’re comparing having a Gas station at home vs. EVSE charging. 2 Totally different fuels, that makes no sense.

          2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

            Bob Nickson said:

            “People who can’t refuel at home or at work should not buy an ICE vehicle. Period.”

            Funny, I never had any problem with that.

            So let’s not resort to the fallacy of false equivalency, hmmm? Sarcasm only works when you actually have a point to make. You don’t.

            Just because I’m a plug-in EV advocate doesn’t mean I’m foolish enough to believe they will work for everyone.

            1. Bob Nickson says:

              The point is that combustion engine cars are enabled by publicly available infrastructure. To assert that EV’s should only be charged at home or work and no investment for public charging should be made is just ridiculous.

              1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

                “The point is that combustion engine cars are enabled by publicly available infrastructure. To assert that EV’s should only be charged at home or work and no investment for public charging should be made is just ridiculous.”

                Wow, how many fallacies are there in those two sentences?

                Since you’ve moved beyond reasonable debate to both moving the goal posts and using a straw man argument, it’s time for us to declare victory in this argument and move on.

      3. Stimpy says:

        If the stations are FREE then yes it is an issue.

        If they charge a per kWh fee (as Tesla now does with Supercharger, then this becomes no problem at all.

        1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          Tesla only charges a fee under certain circumstances, with a large number of exceptions. So absolutely it will be a problem. The only question is just how much of a problem it will be.

          One only needs to look at all the complaints about Supercharger stations having waiting lines or being too full to use, to realize it really is a problem, Stimpy.

      4. BenG says:

        A Tesla with access to a convenient urban supercharger station should be perfectly fine hitting the ‘gas’ station once or twice a week for their daily driving, so long as there are sufficient chargers at the station.

        I’d say a major point of Tesla building out an urban super-charger network is to enable people to buy Teslas that do not have access to home or workplace charging.

        1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          It is absurd to suggest that Tesla should be paying for the electricity for people to use Superchargers for everyday charging. It’s even more absurd to suggest that Telsa should build enough Superchargers in urban areas to support that.

          And if they did, this would drive up the cost of Tesla’s cars to the point that they would be… if not non-competitive, then at least much less so than they are.

          It’s just as ridiculous to assert that Tesla should build out Superchargers to replace home charging as to assert that the Ford Motor Co. should have built a nationwide network of non-profit gas stations to support Model T drivers.

          1. BenG says:

            I don’t see anyone suggesting Tesla should be paying for the electricity for local Supercharging. Haven’t they already established a policy of allowing a limited number of free Supercharging sessions, then charging for the electricity?

            The Supercharger network is a massive advantage for Tesla in competition against other EV manufacturers. Nothing absurd about building that advantage out to expand the target audience for Tesla sales.

      5. Jason says:

        Pushmi-Pullyu:
        I’ve seen your comments on here before and they are usually very intelligent.

        But I believe that as EV enthusiasts (which I’m sure 90%+ of the people on here are) we should never say that people without home or work charging shouldn’t get an EV. MOST of the US population (81%) reside in urban areas, often in apartments or condos with no access to home or work charging. To say that they shouldnt get EVs would be to dissuade the majority of the population from getting off fossil fueled cars. We’re already fighting against a massive dissuasion and disinformation campaign being funded by big oil and big auto to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, please do NOT add yourself to the mix!

        Tesla is now charging for supercharger use, which will help to dissuade people from using the superchargers when they could charge their cars more cheaply at home. However, for urbanites who live in apartments or condos with no home charging, charging up once or twice a week at an urban supercharger (which is being specifically built for them) is a perfectly good solution and I hope it takes off in a big way, for the sake of Tesla and more importantly for the sake of mass EV adoption and hopefully leading us more rapidly to the end of burning fossil fuels for transportation.

        1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          You are making a right-vs-wrong argument.

          Contrariwise, I’m making a practical-vs-impractical argument.

          Yes, I absolutely agree that we should replace every single fossil-fuel burning vehicle with an EV, or where that’s not possible (airliners), replace fossil fuels with biofuels or synthetic fuels. That should be our goal.

          But telling people they should buy a PEV (Plug-in EV) even when they don’t have any practical place to charge it up overnight or while they are at work, is both foolish and counterproductive. Convincing someone who can’t charge at home or at work to buy a PEV won’t convert them to the cause; it will convert them to an EV hater, one who will complain loud and long to his friends and on social media that trying to drive a PEV is an exercise in frustration.

          Is that really what you want? I hope not!

          1. Paul Stoller says:

            We need to build the infrastructure so that they can charge, that is the practical thing to do.

        2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          Jason said:

          “…for urbanites who live in apartments or condos with no home charging, charging up once or twice a week at an urban supercharger (which is being specifically built for them) is a perfectly good solution…”

          No. That’s not any solution, let alone a “good” solution; that’s a problem.

          We already see complaints that people plug their PEVs in at charging stations, then walk off and just leave them sitting there for hours, blocking other from being able to use them.

          And if you don’t live within walking distance of one of these urban Superchargers, then what? Are you supposed to wait around for hours, waiting for the car to charge? Or are you supposed to depend on someone else using his/her gasmobile to get you there and back?

          Charging at home is a convenience; one which many or perhaps most PEV owners say makes driving the PEV more convenient than driving a gasmobile, because your car is always charged up in the morning, and you never have to drive to a gas station.

          Why in the world would any EV advocate want to replace that convenience by trying to talk someone into having to depend on public EV chargers for everyday charging? Seriously, which side are you on here?

          At best, this attitude is a case of wishful thinking. At worst… I have to wonder if some people advocating this are deliberately trying to sabotage the EV advocacy movement.

          1. BenG says:

            You are arguing against several straw men here.

            1) Tesla already has penalties in place for people who leave their cars blocking Superchargers after they are fully charged.
            2) No Supercharging session takes ‘hours’ to charge a car.
            3) An urban Supercharging station would by definition be in an urban environment, which by definition has businesses, restaurants, etc … nearby. How hard would it be for a condo-dweller to go once a week to the station, charge up for 45 minutes while grabbing a bite to eat, doing some shopping, taking a walk, conducting business on the phone, etc … ? Sure it’s not as convenient as home charging, but if someone wants to own a Tesla without access to home charging, it’s certainly workable.

        3. CCIE says:

          When the technology matures enough for EVs to recharge in 10 minutes at an EV “gas station” then it’ll be practical. Until then, EV’s just won’t work for most people without home or workplace charging availability.

          1. SparkEV says:

            Isn’t is interesting that SparkEV does close to that already? My average is 15 minutes, and average ending charge is bit over 80%. If DCFC is capped at 80%, average time could be very close to 10 minutes.

            Unfortunately, the rest of the world hasn’t caught up to SparkEV, and unlikely Teslas or anyone else (including GM) will catch up for many more years.

            In a way, I wonder if all my complaints are because I’m living the future. If some people in Ford Model T days had access to modern Corvette, I think the Corvette owners would complain about the slowness of Model T.

            1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

              It wasn’t hard for the Model T to compete with the horse, because it could do so many things the horse couldn’t. Back in the early days of the Model T, there were no gas stations; motorcar owners bought a can of gasoline at the hardware store or drug store. It was only when motorcars became somewhat common that special stores dispensing gasoline started appearing: gas stations.

              Contrariwise, for PEVs to compete with gasmobiles is much harder. It is difficult to compete with the gasmobile’s ability to refuel in just a couple of minutes.

              Someday, when EVs can be recharged in <10 minutes, and for-profit super-fast chargers are commonplace, then it will be appropriate to recommend that people buy PEVs even if they can’t charge them at home or at work. But until that day comes, trying to convince someone to buy something that doesn’t fit his lifestyle is both foolish and counter-productive.

              1. SparkEV says:

                Today’s EV are capable of <10 minutes of charging to get meaningful miles. The problem is that people look to % charged, not the actual miles. This is why C rating is important, and why SparkEV is the quickest charging EV in the world.

                With SparkEV 45 kW on average, 10 minutes gets you 7.5 kWh (adds about 40%) . At 5 mi/kWh, that's 38 miles, plenty to get across a city or to next DCFC station.

                With Tesla average of 70 kW and 3.5 mi/kWh, 10 minutes gets you 11.7 kWh (only adds about 15%) and 41 miles. Because 3 will be more efficient, that could be 58 miles at 5 mi/kWh but still less than 25% added.

                Now if the companies really wanted to force things, they can simply cap it at 10 minutes and not allow another charging session at the same spot for 30 minutes (prevent second plug in). But seeing how some Bolt drivers were bitching about 30 minutes cap, 10 minute cap will be very "noisy".

  5. jim stack says:

    PP, Yes the Urban-Destination chargers are given free and at many Hotels, Restaurants ,shopping centers and many other places people already stop at everyday.

    1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      Destination chargers are of course a positive thing, and kudos to Tesla for quietly building out about as many destination chargers as the Superchargers they rightfully brag about!

      Destination chargers are intended for people to have their car sitting at them long-term or overnight. That’s what they are for, and so of course that’s how they should be used. More is better.

      But Superchargers were never intended to be used for everyday charging. Promoting the use of Superchargers for everyday charging will quickly create a situation where the network will become hopelessly unusable except in remote areas, with waiting lines so long that most people wouldn’t even try to use them. I’m sure that’s what EV advocates don’t really want, and it amazes me that so many seem to be advocating exactly that. I think they need to exercise some critical thinking here, and think about the unintended consequences.

      And there’s another problem: No PEV, not even Teslae, are designed to use Superchargers for everyday charging. It is now known and acknowledged by Tesla that they designed their cars to start limiting the speed of charging for those who use Supercharger too frequently.

      So let’s not pretend that Tesla’s cars are either intended or designed to be Supercharged on an everyday basis, because it’s simply not true.

  6. (⌐■_■) Trollnonymous says:

    I hope the destination chargers are at the minimum 7.2KW EVSE’s or at best 10KW and not lower.

    1. vdiv says:

      That’s up to the destination owner. Most are 80A split phase 240V, so almost 20kW.

  7. georgeS says:

    three night super charger trip coming up tomorrow in the Model S. First leg is to Durango (360 miles) second loop takes me up to Silverton, Ouray and Telluride, Co. I am relying on Tesla destination charger in Durango and Telluride to get my charging. The double tree in in Durango has 2 and the Mountain Lodge in Telluride also has 2. Hopefully I don’t have to battle with an ICE vehicle in them when I arrive.

    Should be interesting on the first leg to Durango. I’m going to try to make it 200 miles to Gallup without stopping. Then in Gallup I’ll hit the super charger with a low battery so I should get some decent charging rates.

    I’ll report tomorrow.

  8. Nick says:

    Again when tesla was building the brand free travel was great idea to push out cars but with model 3 you can’t and they said not free. Charge for power and much a profit is fair as the cost to maintain and build SC is crazy expense. I own an S and have super changed many times while road trips and have seen first hand these cars parked taking up places at malls and stuff. Do the 1 hour or 80% fee but increase it to a $1.00. I for one never purchased a car expecting free gas nor did I expect free charging but it’s a nice to have. As a share holder for 5 years now I fully expect Elon and tesla will fine line who gets what and focus on bottom line numbers,hate to be a quick turn profit when the $$$ in in the long term payouts.

  9. speculawyer says:

    I’d like to hear Tesla address how they are going to deal with long-distance-travel charging versus in city supercharging by people that lack home chargers.

    The former seems to be under control as the chargers between cities are not overloaded except during events that cause a number of Tesla drivers to go to the same event.

    But that in city supercharging seems to be a bit overloaded. They need to dissuade people from using superchargers unless they really need to. Perhaps they should charge a high charging price for chargers within 100 miles of your home.

    1. (⌐■_■) Trollnonymous says:

      I stopped to think about this and this looks like a step towards replacing gas stations on every corner.

      Think about it, Tesla SC locations replacing those gas stations one by one and the price could start at about half the cost of a gallon of gas for 32KWh of charge. Once the adoption spreads, increase the price per 32KWh.

  10. Jason says:

    Tesla should build green Super Charger stations as well. Red means free, unlimited, charging with fees charged for sitting after the charge, same as now.
    Green means paid Super Charging. Every new Super Charger should be green. Then you know, regardless what Tesla you own, the green ones you pay for and will most likely be less congested (because as we know everyone wants free), and red ones will most likely be congested as everyone queues for their free sauce!
    Model 3 is already indicated to be paid charging, with possible limited free annual amount. So you get that at red chargers, but green chargers you always pay, no free charging at green chargers.
    For apartments and other dwellings where you cannot charge at home, Tesla could offer a service to help you negotiate with landlord or local agency to install destination chargers at a convenient location.

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