Kansas City Power & Light, Nissan & ChargePoint To Install 1,000 Charging Stations, Including CHAdeMO/CCS DC Fast Chargers


Efacec will provide  15 DC Fast Chargers as part of KCP&L's Clean Charge network

Efacec will provide 15 DC Fast Chargers as part of KCP&L’s Clean Charge network – Notice that these units support both CHAdeMO & CCS.

It’s odd what makes headlines everywhere and what doesn’t.

Case in Point

This announcement from Kansas City Power & Light is HUGE: 1,000 electric car charging stations installed over the next several months, the largest installation of electric car chargers by an electric utility company in the U.S.

That’s 1,000 new chargers installed, including DC units that support both CHAdeMO and CCS.

However, there’s virtually no media coverage of this announcement, yet that CCS fast charger announcement with 100 chargers installed over an undisclosed time frame grabbed headlines everywhere.  The name power of the automotive OEM we suppose (in that case BMW and VW).

Kansas City Power & Light will install DC fast chargers too, so that’s a plus and Nissan is involved, the world’s leader in electric car sales.  So too is ChargePoint and there’s free charging for 2 years, so we’re perplexed by the fact that this news hasn’t hit the major media outlets.

Here are the details:

KCP&L Becomes Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Leader With Groundbreaking Announcement
KCP&L’s Clean Charge Network will be the largest utility electric vehicle charging station installation in the country

KANSAS CITY, Mo.– Today, at a kickoff event at its headquarters, Kansas City Power & Light Company (KCP&L), a subsidiary of Great Plains Energy Incorporated (NYSE: GXP), announced its plans to install and operate more than 1,000 electric vehicle charging stations, making it the largest electric vehicle charging station installation by an electric utility in the United States. KCP&L’s Clean Charge Network is the next step in the company’s leadership in environmental sustainability. Over the next several months, KCP&L will install more than 1,000 charging stations throughout the Greater Kansas City region. This network of stations will be capable of supporting more than 10,000 electric vehicles. Through partnerships with companies at host locations and with Nissan Motor Company, the Clean Charge Network will offer free charging on every station to all drivers for the first two years. The stations are manufactured by ChargePoint and will be part of the ChargePoint network of more than 20,000 charging spots in North America.

“The Kansas City region is quickly building a reputation as an innovative, sustainable place to live and work,” said Terry Bassham, President and CEO of Great Plains Energy and KCP&L. “We’re excited to continue being a leader in support of this growth by providing our customers and visitors to this region with an environmentally-friendly alternative to gasoline-powered vehicles. Thanks to our Clean Charge Network, everyone in our service territory will be able to charge up and hit the road.”

Where can I charge my electric vehicle?

The charging stations will be installed strategically throughout KCP&L’s service region, ensuring there will be a charging station near where electric vehicle owners live and work.

“We are committed to the electric vehicle industry and want to give residents and visitors the ability to join the electric vehicle revolution. As a utility, we will place the stations where they’re needed most and support them as part of our electric grid, leveraging our expertise with electrical infrastructure,” said Bassham. “Our Clean Charge Network eliminates ‘range anxiety’ in the region, which is the number one roadblock to greater electric vehicle adoption. Now, electric vehicle owners will have an answer to the question, ‘Where do I recharge my vehicle?’”

Installation of the charging stations began in late 2014 and will be completed this summer. The first stations deployed on the network will include 15 fast charging stations provided by Nissan and KCP&L, which will charge any model of electric vehicle on the market. On the fast charging stations, an electric vehicle like the Nissan LEAF will charge from empty to approximately 80 percent in about 30 minutes. In addition, the Clean Charge Network will have more than 1,000 standard charging stations, which will give most electric vehicles a 25 mile charge for every hour it is plugged into the station.

“The number of stations allows electric vehicle owners to change their habits, charging as they go about their day, and giving them the freedom to drive that much further. It makes it easier for current electric vehicle owners and hopefully will remove the perceived barriers for potential electric vehicle owners,” said Bassham.

What’s in it for me?

“The most exciting part is that everyone benefits,” said Kansas City Mayor, Sly James. “Not only do the owners of electric vehicles in Kansas City benefit, but with this project, KCP&L is also investing in the economic development and environmental sustainability of this region, which is a win for everyone. I applaud KCP&L for taking this groundbreaking step forward right here in Kansas City.”

Kansas City is the largest auto manufacturing center in the United States, outside of Detroit. That position makes the region well suited for leadership in the transportation of the future. Range anxiety — the fear of running out of power before reaching the next charging station — is a top concern for potential electric car buyers. By alleviating that anxiety and enabling more people to purchase electric vehicles, KCP&L’s Clean Charge Network continues Kansas City region’s leadership as an automotive center by creating new jobs and, ultimately, attracting new businesses and talent.

This project extends KCP&L’s position as an industry leader in environmental sustainability. Along with KCP&L’s environmental upgrades at several local power plants, renewable energy portfolio and its energy efficiency programs, the KCP&L Clean Charge Network will reduce carbon emissions and help the Kansas City region attain EPA regional ozone standards.

“All our environmental investments, including the new network, advance our commitment to a more sustainable energy future,” said Bassham. “We know our customers want more choice when it comes to their energy solutions, and we are committed to providing them with affordable, long-term energy solutions that offer them greater control of their energy use.”

In addition to regional economic and environmental benefits, the Clean Charge Network can help keep electricity costs low for all KCP&L customers. As more drivers adopt electric vehicles, not only will vehicle emissions be reduced but the cost of operating and maintaining the electrical grid will be spread over increased electricity usage, benefitting everyone. Those who drive electric vehicles will see the bill for fueling their cars go down because electricity is less expensive than gasoline, even at gasoline’s low current price. At the same time, increased efficient use of electricity will offset cost increases for operating the grid, which would otherwise become part of customer bills.

“People generally charge their cars at non-peak periods when KCP&L’s electrical grid is being underutilized. By stimulating electric vehicle adoption with their Clean Charge Network, what KCP&L is doing is encouraging people to use the electrical grid more efficiently and drive down the cost of electricity for everyone,” said Natural Resources Defense Council Senior Energy Economist Ashok Gupta. “KCP&L’s efforts to encourage the use of electric vehicles, modernize the electrical grid, increase the use of renewable energy sources and invest in customers through robust energy efficiency programs are all critical parts of a sustainable energy future. More electric vehicles on the road means that people will be using more electricity during times when KCP&L already has enough generation and distribution capacity to meet their demand. That means savings on electricity bills for everyone and cleaner air for everyone.”

Why KCP&L?

KCP&L is not new to electric vehicle infrastructure. In 2011, KCP&L worked with the Kansas City Regional Clean Cities Coalition to bring ten charging stations to the area. KCP&L also deployed additional stations through the KCP&L SmartGrid Demonstration Project. All of these stations offered the opportunity to test technologies and behaviors while monitoring usage, laying the foundation for KCP&L’s Clean Charge Network.

“We’ve learned a lot over the last few years about how our customers use electric vehicles,” said Bassham. “Combined with our knowledge of the electric grid and award-winning reliability, we think we’re well-suited to operate the electric vehicle network.”

KCP&L will install ChargePoint stations as part of this project. ChargePoint operates the world’s largest electric vehicle charging network, making Clean Charge stations part of a nationwide cohesive network and not a series of one-off stations. As a result, electric vehicle owners in this region will have the same experience, the same customer service and a set of transparent and standard pricing options at every station. And for the next two years, charging a car in KCP&L’s Clean Charge Network will be free to electric vehicle owners. KCP&L is partnering with Nissan and the host sites to cover the charging cost to further encourage electric vehicle adoption in this market.

Economies of scale with KCP&L’s Clean Charge Network will help keep costs low. As a utility, KCP&L’s costs are regulated by state commissions. These factors combine to ensure a fair price for the stations. The commissions will also help facilitate conversations to ensure all stakeholders have a voice.


“Our partners helped make this groundbreaking program a reality,” said Bassham. “Each is a leader in the electric vehicle industry worldwide. We look forward to working together on making the Midwest a leader in the electric vehicle industry.”

Nissan, maker of the Nissan LEAF, the best-selling all-electric car, is providing funding toward 16 fast charging stations, including covering the costs of the electricity necessary to power the charging stations for two years.
ChargePoint, the world’s largest and most open electric vehicle charging network, will manufacture the standard charging stations in KCP&L’s Clean Charge Network. ChargePoint manufactures the stations and this represents the single largest single installation on the ChargePoint network. ChargePoint provides 24/7 driver support and offers a free mobile app that drivers can use to find stations and start charging.

KCP&L is also partnering with local companies to be host sites for the Clean Charge Network. Host sites have been selected using a variety of criteria, including ensuring KCP&L’s Clean Charge Network is accessible at geographically diverse sites that are convenient for customers to access. There are still a limited number of spots available for sites. Interested business can apply online at www.kcpl.com/CleanCharge. Customers who would like to nominate a location can do so on KCP&L’s Facebook page at www.facebook.com/KCPLConnect.

How to access the Clean Charge Network

To utilize the stations, all drivers have to do is sign up for a ChargePoint membership (https://na.chargepoint.com/register). Drivers will then have access to the more than 20,000 charging locations nationwide on the ChargePoint network, including these new stations offered by KCP&L. Drivers can find charging stations and see their availability in real-time at ChargePoint.com or with the free ChargePoint mobile app. To use the stations, drivers simply wave their ChargePoint card in front of the station, or use the ChargePoint mobile app.

For more information on this project and to see a map of locations already selected, please visit www.kcpl.com/CleanCharge.
About Great Plains Energy

Headquartered in Kansas City, Mo., Great Plains Energy Incorporated (NYSE: GXP) is the holding company of Kansas City Power & Light Company and KCP&L Greater Missouri Operations Company, two of the leading regulated providers of electricity in the Midwest. Kansas City Power & Light Company and KCP&L Greater Missouri Operations Company use KCP&L as a brand name. More information about the companies is available on the Internet at: www.greatplainsenergy.com or www.kcpl.com.
About Nissan LEAF

With more than 158,000 global sales since launch, Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling electric vehicle. LEAF seats up to five passengers and boasts an estimated driving range on a fully-charged battery of 84 miles and MPGe ratings of 126 city, 101 highway and 114 combined. The effective price of a Nissan LEAF starts at about $23,000 after the available $7,500 federal tax credit, which is competitive with gas-powered cars while providing the benefits of lower running costs and less scheduled maintenance. For more information, visit www.nissanusa.com/LEAF.
About ChargePoint

ChargePoint operates the world’s largest electric vehicle (EV) charging network, with more than 20,000 spots to plug in and charge. We are transforming the transportation industry by providing the charging stations, mobile apps, analytics and the charging network that allow property owners and drivers to benefit from EV charging. We are also transforming the energy industry by providing intelligent solutions to help people and businesses shift away from fossil fuels and use electricity more efficiently. Our mission is to get all drivers behind the wheel of an EV and provide them a place to charge whether at home, at work, around town or out-of-town. Realtime network information is available through the ChargePoint app and in many top-selling EVs. For more information, visit www.chargepoint.com

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43 Comments on "Kansas City Power & Light, Nissan & ChargePoint To Install 1,000 Charging Stations, Including CHAdeMO/CCS DC Fast Chargers"

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It’s rather ironic that this article is posted just after one about hydrogen fuel cells where it is stated that 100 hydrogen stations will be built from $200 million of public funds.

That works out to $2 Million per hydrogen station. If the same is true for these electric filling stations, is Kansas City really spending $2 Billions on 1,000 electric filling stations?!? If not, somebody quickly please call Toyota and let them know that there’s a much less expensive and practical zero-emission solution than hydrogen fuel cells!

The biggest thing is that we the public are paying for this 200 million dollar hydrogen road to nowhere. Such as when hydrogen cars and gas stations where first proposed and planned as a system in 2000. DC electric car fast chargers didn’t exist but as soon as Nissan and Tesla came out with their fast Chargers hydrogen became obsolete much like the steam powered cars in the 1910’s.

According to the KC Star (our local paper), the charging network is expected to cost only $20 million…paid for by a small rate increase. This goes to show how relatively cheap a network of charging stations really is, esp. when compared to a network of hydrogen refilling stations.


Not all of the locations have been revealed, but the KCP&L website does have a map of current planned locations. There is even an option to sign up for a station in front of your business.

This makes the BMW+VW and even the NRG announcement seem pathetic in comparison.

In response to why this didn’t make national news, I agree with the comment below that KCP&L does not have the brand power that BMW and VW have (or even NRG). However, I would also add that we here in KC are in flyover country, which is typically ignored in the national media (unless something bad happens, like a tornado).

Go Royals!

1) Locate them in logical places.
2) Maintain them.

3) Replicate elsewhere

I think the significant part of the story is the involvement of the local utility. We need more of that around the country.

Wow, 1,000 stations in a single city is impressive. I’m not sure how many we have here in Dallas/Ft.Worth but I’d say probably just 100 to 200 stations in the whole metro area. And most of those aren’t even that practical because they are at dealerships or other places that aren’t that useful.

I feel like if they don’t feel like telling me the number of QCs then they don’t deserve my attention. I figure this is 995 L2s, which are just dropping a port on top of an existing standard 240 line drop, and, say, 5 QCs, which actually involve real money ($10k for the inverter) and maintenance, coming off of a full, one-whole-customer-site 100kW-apportioned (why QCs often come in pairs) power drop.

“The first stations deployed on the network will include 15 fast charging stations provided by Nissan and KCP&L, which will charge any model of electric vehicle on the market.”

It’s even in bold text!

I think L2 stations are just as important if not more important than DC fast charge stations. For a few reasons.

1) They are cheaper to install so they can be spread out over a wider area.

2) When properly placed, they can be just as useful as a QC station, if not better. As long as they are located at some place you plan to be for a few hours, that actually works out better than having to sit at a QC station for 15 minutes with nothing to do.

3) If they are placed in areas where a lot of people see them charging, it is like instant advertising for the EV movement.

Yep. Proper placement is key.

They need to install L2 chargers at destinations where you spend a few hours. Zoos, arenas, museums, shopping malls, aquariums, theme parks, stadiums, beaches, parks, theatres, downtown shopping districts, employee parking lots, courthouses, etc.

I’ve become a San Jose Sharks fan and I know where some L2 chargers are right near the Shark Tank. I’ve used it several times now to charge up while watching a game.

I think 50 DC Fast Chargers would be more useful. I really hope they are going to build a 100 DC Fast chargers as part of this plan. In that a DC Fast charger really allows you to raise the amount of range you can drive in a day compared to a level two.

Ocean – Where did yo put the tracks for that Railroad (in the Ocean! – now – THAT is a Logistical Nightmare if there ever was one!) 1st – If you can show me that the average Mall Shopper is in, and out, in 30 minutes or less, I will grasp your point better. 2nd – how many Malls are in this City Space? If the simply put the 20 kW (or 25 kW) rated L3 Chargers at malls, they could put in 2X as many – as to hardware costs – and 2 of them would consume as much power, or less, than a single 50 kw Model; Plus – two times as many cars could be charging at one time – AND – Since most mall shoppers are at least an hour – the 20 kW speed would fill most current cars in one hour anyway! 3rd – for traveling between Cities – that is where higher rated L3 Charging is needed, like the 50 – 100 kW DC QC’s now available (Note – Kia’s Europe Expansion of 100 kW multi-standard units!) The Amount of range you can drive in a day – is also related to: –… Read more »

Something to think about, but we could make all plug-in cars charge on DC only (get rid of the L1 & L2 AC charging). Then put the AC to DC converter in the EVSE, that would save some space & weight in the cars, and all cars would be ready for DCFC. So you could still do L1 charging, just the converter would be external to the car.

Just a thought.

No, not as long as CHAdeMO/CCS is deploying EVSE’s less than 100 kW. Anything less than about 90kW is a complete waste of resources.

The next generations of BEVs with realistic range of 150+ miles will need a very different infrastructure than the current generation of 60-80 miles range BEVs. We need lots of 10kW to 20kW destination charging points. Lots as in more than the number of gas stations, as in at each hotel, government office, park, and so forth.

Why cripple the long term BEV infrastructure to support a limited first generation product?

Oh, by the way. The station pictured here is an interesting station. It’s the chargepoint station with the overhead hanging cables. I’ve only encountered one such station in the DF/W area. The overhead hanging cables work similar to a gasoline pump. No need to roll the cable up and hang it somewhere. I love these stations and wish all L2 stations were like this.

Yeah, I’ve used this type of chargepoint charger a few times now and it is very nice.

Awesome! More Utilities need to do this!

It seems much to their advantage to push EVs . . . EVs make great customers since they use a lot of electricity and they use it at night when the utility has excess power. Especially in a place like Kansas which will have excess wind power at night.

Of course, the EV owners are great customers until the install their own PV systems though . . . 😉

“However, there’s virtually no media coverage of this announcement, yet that CCS fast charger announcement with 100 chargers installed over an undisclosed time frame grabbed headlines everywhere. The name power of the automotive OEM we suppose (in that case BMW and VW).”

It’s more of an Internet echo chamber effect. I’ve noticed many times that in lieu of actually tracking down sources and writing original stories, many folks just pass on whatever the popular story of the day is, present company excluded 🙂

Being announced at the Washington DC Auto Show helped, too.

Hummm 1000 stations…. I’d like to get one decent level 2 station on the thruway halfway between buffalo and syracuse.


You and me both, Bill. Well, I would need more than one for it to be useful to my Leaf. But an L2 at each rest stop would open a lot of possibilities even to my Leaf which charges at a measly 3.3kW max! I wouldn’t be able to make it to Buffalo, but trips to the Fingerlakes would become much easier.

You would need a new Leaf for a fast charger to be useful for your Leaf 😉 Happy Easter!

Okay Brian, ignore that the original comment referenced Level 2 stations. I was just so darn excited about leaving you an Easter Egg …

A little early for Easter, isn’t it? It’s not even Lent yet!

Yes, I was just thinking about travelling to say the Waterloo outlets (which my wife enjoys visiting a few times each year). If you have never been out to the Fingerlakes, I highly recommend it. Beautiful area! 😉

Not to spill the beans but does Clarkson have the same 3.6 kw Docking station? Or is he ‘6.6kw’ ready?

Mr. Cote has the same 15A / 240V Voltec EVSE that I do. It is a great unit (although the silly light at the end of the cord burned out on mine – I thought LEDs weren’t supposed to burn out after a year, but oh well!). As far as I am concerned, that is “future proof” enough for me. If I get a 200-mile EV, I’m not going to suddenly drive 200 miles every day, and then need to recharge in 8 hours.

I’m on the same page with you. I just mention it because I know he’s criticized the new volt for not having a larger charger.

I would imagine you might do something else if you ever had 2 evs, but then it is still conceivable 15 amps will be enough for one ev and 110 volts for the other.

30 amp evse and a 110 voltec is plenty for me, even when my relatives put the miles on the volt. hehe.

Hi Bill,

Luckily, it’s looking like Tesla will have a few fast chargers along the Thruway soon for you. The Roadster is capable of using them, right?

The only fast charger I can use is that “Keep Canadians Working!” ; “Keep the Air Clean for Canadians!” SunCountryHighway 200 volt @ 70 amp thingy that Dr. Ron paid for (the guy who has 25 kw solar which only covers 2/3 of his bill in the summertime, and will probably end up with 5 Teslas on 2 – 150 amp services. Although I’d wager that is also subject to change.

Roadsters are level 2 only, but can run up to around 250 volts / 70 amps, but the most I’ve ever gotten is 204 @ 70 in Mississauga.

With the new battery (70 kwh supposedly), they may force you to buy the ‘upgrade package’, which is a Model S style Jack and the 40 amp car shaped Universal Mobile Connector, neither of which I want since the connections suit me fine.

Even though Roadster 3.0 so to speak, will have the S jack it will be useless at a supercharger, although a high power wall connector will be able to charge the thing at 70 (not 80) amps.

Not sure if you saw my post, since sometimes replies get lost if their days old, but maybe you didn’t realize there are 2 roadster car chargers, similar to the 3.3 kw gen 1 volt and 3.6 kw gen 2. Most of the roadsters have light, transformerless Power Equipment Modules that use the motor for the step up (single phase operation is by definition zero torque), but my ‘newest 2.5’ and also the sport models have a heavy transformered PEM, probably to settle a law suit with American Propulsions Reductive Charger formerly ongoing complaint. Its a work alike thing though. Only other difference on my 2.5 is the dc/dc converter is the opposite of the 175 amp thing in the Volt, here its only 30 (I believe it was originally 50), but the 2.5 roadsters shut stuff off if the load goes over 30 amps, a good thing because there’s no current limit and otherwise the thing would fry, as it is in danger of doing if the motorcycle battery develops a dead cell. Many Roadster owners fried the thing running accessories not tied to the cigarette lighter, since it is *NOT* current limited as absolutely everything with cars historically… Read more »

Kudos to KC! What a great idea… so now the Metro area with Google Gigabit Fiber everywhere will also be able to drive around their area in fully electric cars. OK… so maybe I will consider moving…
Then again… OK PG&E and SoCal Edison… step it up! DC fast and 80 amp AC Level 2 everywhere. Ok Maybe just 16 amp level 2 with a nearby bank of DCFC at airports and workplace centers… it just makes sense.

Moves like KC is doing make small battery electrics very practical… doubling and even tripling the daily range with a few short breaks.
Love my american made Nissan LEAF!

So BMW & Volkswagen partner with ChargePoint to install 100 DCQC stations and decide to make them all dual-use, CCS & CHAdEMO, seemingly extending the olive branch to Nissan.

A week later, there’s this announcement that Nissan, along with ChargePoint will install 1000 charging stations in KC, 15 of which are DC fast charge stations. All of the DCQC stations will also be dual-use, CHAdeMO & CCS. Obviously, Nissan has been discussing this with BMW and VW all along.

It looks like we are seeing the beginning of the end of the so-called standards war. Both sides are agreeing to support both standards with dual use stations. So the PC and the Mac can live together after all!


I sincerely hope that you are right. And maybe down the road we will see a true standard compatible with all EV’s. Wouldn’t that be nice?


Yes, of course Lou, that would be the best solution. We’ll get there for sure, but it may take many years to do so. In the meantime, if this is how it’s handled (everyone installing dual-use stations), I can live with that.

It’s just unfortunate that its come to this, with two standards at every DCQC charger. Not that one is superior to the other, they both have pros and cons. I drive a Leaf, but I’m no fan of heaving around a 5 pound ChaDeMo connector on the end of a stiff 3 inch diameter cable.

It’s adding to my appreciation of getting ahead of the curve early with the single J1772 standard for L2 charging. That was a very, very wise decision.

Like my comment above, if all plug-ins were DC only, we could standardize on something small like Tesla’s connector that just has the 2 large DC pins. Put the AC/DC electronics in the EVSE (for when those are needed).

It’s so ironic that Tesla pioneered talks to come up with a standardized connector, and now, they’re the only auto manufacturer with a proprietary one.

Yeah and the 2 tesla proprietaries won’t intermingle with themselves either!

“It’s so ironic that Tesla pioneered talks to come up with a standardized connector…”

Not ironic at all, if you’re familiar with how those talks actually happened. Closer to Game of Thrones than Mad Men.

Yeah, I thought the situation for the Baker Electrics (1904 to the next 15 years or whatever) was far better.

Around 1910, General ELectric came up with several MODUAlar home chargers, using inexpensive ‘Static’ (only moving part is the Arc jumping between anodes on each half wave of the Mercury-Arc rectifier), and they had all kinds of sizes depending on your budget and your home electrical service.

The smallest was (up to) 90 volts at 3 amps, and the largest was 50 amps, but the large one (4500 watt output) needed a single phase 220 line.

But the chargers were sold in either 110 or 220 volt models, and were available in all standard frequencies, eg: 25, 40, 50, 60, and 133 hz.

So you could charge your electric car at any speed you wanted, and didn’t have to pay for any needless equipment nor extra weight in the car. The cord was a coaxial (plus and minus) connector similiar to a j1772, but much more compact!

Commercial garages charging 4 – 10 cars at once used 5, 7 1/2 , 10 , or 15 hp motor-generator sets – kinda like a supercharger.

er 40 amps, 3.6 kw charger for the big one, (same power as a gen2 volt!). Too dinkny a chart.

Good motives it seems, but placing all 1,000 in a single metro area doesn’t strike me as logical or effective. Put the L2 chargers in places where people will spend an hour or more (shopping malls, theaters, etc.), and put the fast chargers on highways and freeways so EV drivers can reach other towns and cities.

Boom, this is why most people haven’t heard of this rollout. These installations are fine for daily driving, and will get you to Lawrence and Topeka. But St. Louis? Hardly, let alone Chicago or Dallas.

Meanwhile, electrifying I-95 connects NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, etc. And then there are all the smaller towns in between (eastern Pennsylvania, central Maryland, all of New Jersey) with an aggregate population as big as a major city.