Bjørn Says Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars are Bull… Excrement

Bjørn Nyland calls Hydrogen Fuel Cells Bull

JUN 10 2018 BY WADE MALONE 133

Bjørn takes a moment to rant about Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles.

According to Bjørn, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (HFCV) and refueling stations are rare breeds of bovine in Norway. While driving his Tesla Model X, he came across a station and decided to take a look.

Unlike most hydrogen in the United States that is derived from natural gas, this particular station produces hydrogen from electrolysis. So this hydrogen is cleaner than from some other sources. Of course, it is still energy inefficient, impractical and more expensive to fuel per mile than a plug-in vehicle.

While hydrogen refueling may be theoretically more convenient than charging an electric vehicle, that is only true when traveling. In practice, re-charging a battery electric (BEV) or plug-in hybrid (PHEV) wins out over a HFCV. Bjørn explains in his video:

Alright, it takes 3 to 5 minutes. That’s like the main argument for using hydrogen. And it’s clean. Only water, right? Well yes, it takes only 3 to 5 minutes but you know what? My Tesla here, when I’m around Oslo, I don’t go to the Supercharger. I don’t go to the fast charger. I plug in at home. It takes 10 seconds. When I park at the garage, I plug it in. Done.

Because fueling stations are so sparse, long-distance travel is currently out of the question for most HFCV owners. Although that may change in the future, the cars have a lot of hurdles to overcome before they can catch on. Fuel cell stacks have a limited life. Home refueling stations are technically feasible, but wildly expensive and impractical. Especially when every home with a power outlet can charge a BEV.

Check out Bjørn’s video below:

Video Description via Bjørn Nyland on YouTube:

Why hydrogen cars are bullshit

I crunch some numbers and explain why hydrogen cars are bullshit compared to gasoline cars and EVs.

Categories: Videos

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133 Comments on "Bjørn Says Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars are Bull… Excrement"

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David Murray

This is more or less what I’ve been saying for years. Most people hate on hydrogen because of the energy efficiency differences between batteries and a fuel cell. But to me, the most important thing is, what will incentivize customers to give up their gasoline vehicles for this? The vehicles cost more money to buy, cost more money to fuel, and in the end don’t really give any benefit to the consumer themselves. In fact, because they have to fill up at dedicated hydrogen stations, they are less convenient than an EV and even less convenient than a gasoline car. So again, what is going to be the driving force behind this technology? The fact that it is somewhat more “green” than gasoline isn’t likely to be enough to get many customers.

Ambulator

Just to play devil’s advocate…

Politicians are rich (in general), and they hate to wait. Local trips are not a large part of their days. They see hydrogen as nearly ideal, when for the cost of a few extra cents in fuel they can appear as green as they want to.

The people aren’t going to be so pleased.

sean

Hydrogen is -solely- a way to greenwash NG. It was the main impetus behind Reagan supporting it over things like EVs.

Ash09

It could be viable, if hydrogen fuel cell cars were at least fun to drive. From what I’ve read though, the Toyota Mirai’s 0-60 time is around 10 seconds, which is on par with a Prius, which also isn’t known for its sportiness.

Sure, not everyone needs fast acceleration. But couldn’t they at least give it a bit more power than a Prius?

Hydrogen fuel cells could still have some uses, such as say powering a remote building or as backup power for a building where its role isn’t to move something around. But for light duty passenger cars, they don’t have a strong argument over plug-in cars. Especially plug-in hybrids.

TeslaInvestors

Mirai is a 2014 model and first attempt from Toyota. Let’s talk about something more recent, like Clarity FCEV and upcoming Hyundai Nexo, shall we? Most FCEV drivers I talked to are quite pleased with their cars.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/…hydrogen-cars-now-the-refilling-stations.html
“The daily commute is a real grind for most people, but not for Heather McLaughlin. In February, Ms. McLaughlin leased a 2017 Honda Clarity FC, a sedan powered by hydrogen fuel cells and available only in California. And it has transformed her daily 20-mile commute near San Francisco.
With no pistons or spark plugs, the car is serenely quiet. Its electric motor provides a peppy ride. And wherever Ms. McLaughlin goes, the only thing that comes out of the tailpipe is a bit of water vapor. There are no pollutants, no greenhouse gases.”

Bobish

That is a good reason for the electric part of the FC car – but it does not address the difference between FC and electric cars. With her 20 mile commute she would have the exact same experience with the Honda Clarity Electric… The real question is does she prefer to take a weekly trip to refill at the FC station or plug in every day at home?

TeslaInvestors

You are right. The real difference is in the speed of recharge. While electric cars have to sit for hours. the 70 miles a minute recharge of FCEVs will blow anyone’s mind out of his skull (if he has one)!
I let my Tesla owner friend refuel my Clarity, and he was blown away! He didn’t even know hydrogen cars existed! Talk about propaganda by the media and Silly con valley artists to hide this from the public.

To show the importance of ultra fast charging, I think we can look at Tesla’s own attempt in creating the fast charging (aka “battery swap”) Elon promised, and failed miserably. They used the phony swap stations to swindle CARB and then had to shut it down as it wasn’t practical.
Now think that Hydrogen stations are already achieving that. That itself is a huge advantage.

Gasbag

“Talk about propaganda by the media and Silly con valley artists to hide this from the public.”

Bwahaaa. Bwahaahaha. Our evil plan is working to near perfection! And to think we financed it almost entirely by the sale of tin foil hats!

Samwise

The visit to a station every week to keep my car charged is already the most annoying aspect of my petrol car, why on earth would I want to perfectly replicate this experience in my electric car????
I’ll take 2 or 3, 20 minute waits a year when I’m road tripping to 50, 15 minute trips to the gas station everytime thanks.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“the 70 miles a minute recharge of FCEVs will blow anyone’s mind out of his skull”

Excuse me, but are you actually trying to convince us that we should be impressed merely because fool cell cars can be refueled not all that much slower than a gasmobile?

Seriously, dude?

There is no practical, logical, or rational reason for anyone to select a fool cell car over a compact, fuel-efficient gasmobile. The cost for fueling the fool cell car is far greater, and the very slight improvement in pollution emissions over an efficient gasmobile certainly isn’t a good reason to buy a fool cell car.

Fool cell fanboys love to talk about the lack of tailpipe emissions, but they try to change the subject quickly when anyone points out the well-to-wheel emissions are nearly as bad as they are for gasmobiles!

https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/how-to-promote-the-hydrogen-economy-hoax.429/

TeslaInvestors

Dude, I’m riding the fool cells! My invitation is open for ELon Musk (from whom you got your mantra) to come by any day see me riding the fool cells with joy. He may learn some valuable lessons in building solid quality cars in the process 🙂

Since you want to get into the guts, here is something on the env. effect of making the large battery packs. Mining, processing and then recycling all those rare earth minerals doesn’t come free. Eight years of CO2 emission is already built into the Tesla cars as soon as they are born! If they die prematurely in Autocrash, then those pollution are just lost for no cause. Don’t get me started on the toxic pollution that ensues when one of them battery packs catch fire 🙁
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/06/tesla-car-battery-production-releases-as-much-co2-as-8-years-of-gasoline-driving/

Chris Stork

Seriously? THAT’s your proof? A link to a known climate change denying website run by a man that’s on the payroll of the Heartland Institute (a thinly veiled front for the Koch Brothers)? Try harder or GTFO

TeslaInvestors

No idea what you re saying. Look at the source, not the site! I posted teh first link I found. If you don’t like that, then try this link. The fact remains the same. Batteries don’t drop out of the sky. Better yet, to end such debates, Tesla and other EV makers can publish their real data on how much CO2 was produced in making the battery pack. We know what that will look like for the engine block. How about the batteries and the motors?

https://www.autovistagroup.com/news-and-insights/swedish-study-calls-smaller-ev-batteries-finds-tesla-more-polluting-8-year-old

Mikael

That is not a fact at all. If you’ve actually read the metastudy you would know how horrible wrong it was. And how IVL and Mia Romare got scolded across the globe for such an horrible hack job with no proper explanations to how they could do a so poor job.
Unfortunately this horrible incorrect metastudy is now roaming the troll parts of the internet.

In reality it takes only a few months on the roads to offset the battery.

Ambulator

Rare earth minerals? What rare earth minerals? Modern batteries don’t use them. The motors may, but that’s a known trade off that can go either way, depending on prices.

Pushmi-Pullyu

His Tesla Hater cultist mind is made up, don’t confuse him with the facts!

Pushmi-Pullyu

Teslainvestor continued his promotion of the “hydrogen economy” hoax:

“…something on the env. effect of making the large battery packs. Mining, processing and then recycling all those rare earth minerals doesn’t come free.”

You seem to be confused, dude. We don’t burn batteries in BEVs; they last the lifetime of the car. We don’t have to replace that every week, as you do in a gasmobile or fool cell car.

“Eight years of CO2 emission is already built into the Tesla cars as soon as they are born!”

ROTFL!!
😆 😆 😆

Wouldn’t it be nice if you could find something to say to promote fool cell cars that wasn’t so obviously fake that it was laughable?

Nix

If speed of recharge is the prime advantage of a Fuel Cell vehicle, even faster refill speed can be achieved by purchasing a PHEV.

Jason
Must be a 12yr old. Anyone driving a car today already knows about 2min refueling, is called gasoline, been in use for like 100yrs. Hydrogen just replicates that model. Battery electric changes the model. Over night you charge your car, you don’t miss that time because the car is parked and you’re doing other things. Place those chargers where you park and the car is effectively always fully charged, all the time, and you don’t even notice it. For the several $mil to install the hydrogen station you can install a hell of a lot of these slower chargers. Now, on a trip, the DCFC is 30-60 min, not several hours. After driving a couple hours most normal people are ready for a break so stopping for 30min is not that big a deal. VW are also showing recharging in 15min, so it is getting better. The biggest problem is there needs to be more recharging stations. Think about how many cars there are and how many service stations. You can replace them with hydrogen stations (at least several $bil of infrastructure to be built) or you could use that same money and install recharger systems everywhere, probably even wireless… Read more »
zzzzzzzzzz

Bobish: “The real question is does she prefer to take a weekly trip to refill at the FC station or plug in every day at home?”

This hopelessly US-centric way of thinking that I hear over and over again. Most people in big cities Europe, China or Japan can’t charge at home anything more than their cell phone. Plugging a car sitting on street or common parking lot 5 floors below is lunacy for them. There are some surbubs, or some millionaires may afford to have their own detached house in city center, but it is not typical. Typical is living in multi store building with limited parking where charging is expensive hassle (if possible at all), and commuting to work on subway or other public transit, and using car mostly for road trips. City driving and typical overall distance driven each year is around couple of time less then in the US.

“weekly trip to refill” is another detachment from real life. Anybody who owned a car should know that you don’t take trip to refill, you stop at refilling station on your way. If you don’t have station on your way, you would better not to buy it.

sveno

If you do live and work in a city then any EV with 60kWh or more should work really well whether you can charge at your home or not. You charge at work or at a shopping centre, 1-3 times a week. Perhaps even bi-weekly.

Jason
Don’t you think this is what needs to change? For the cost of a hydrogen station you could install hundreds on L2 chargers. Those people living in their high rise, you already said they park their car somewhere, and do very small trips preferring the public transport, so recharge time is not a big factor if the car is sitting days at a time. I know, my car charges at 3.3kW and takes a couple hours each day to recharge after the daily commute. So how about that, invest all that money from hydrogen station into chargers where people park? As to the battery aspect, everything we humans do has an impact. The materials to make a fuel cell come from mining as well. Battery recycling is going to play a big part (all materials recycling is going to be really important), and >90% of the battery material is recyclable. The 8yrs to recoup the CO2 manufacturing emissions has already been shown as over inflated, and the real figure is more like 5yrs. And after 5yrs it is effectively free, unlike every other solution (hydrogen is mostly made from NG, go figure!). If it goes up in flames, well that’s… Read more »
Prad Bitt

“TeslaInvestors” LOL! How deceiving do you want to be? How dumb do you think we are?

Pushmi-Pullyu

You’d at least think he wouldn’t choose a screen name that makes it so obvious he’s only posting here, and he’s only promoting the “hydrogen economy” hoax, to support his Tesla stock short-selling position.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Most FCEV drivers I talked to are quite pleased with their cars.”

No doubt most drivers of antique steam-powered cars are “quite pleased” with their cars, too. That certainly isn’t any indication they are practical or energy-efficient, any more than hydrogen-powered “fool cell” cars are.

Jason

With a 20mi commute Ms McLaughlin could drive any BEV and have an even better result because there wouldn’t even be water coming out of the (nonexistent) tail pipe.
And assuming she is parking at “home” then the plugging in of the charge cable would be seconds.
20mi commute! What a joke!

sola

It is definitely not enough to be fun for a car to become viable.

Very few people buy a car just to have fun, the car has to be practical for it main purpose (taking you from point A to point B with high reliability and at least acceptable comfort)

Dan

It’s a scam by car and oil company to entrench their vested interests.The hydrogen will come out of gas and the car companies making more money out of it. The only benefit is urban center pollution but the environmentalist pay for it! Scam scam scam!

sean

The largest cost is actually yet another infrastructure we have to fund either via higher rates, and/or gov’t subsidies. We already =need= an electric grid. There is very little sense propping up yet another infrastructure.

The single advantage HFC has is speed at this point. but that is only over EVs. Batteries should come down in cost and improve in reliability. Until then, it makes =very= little sense to switch to hydrogen for even 10 years during the transition and risking getting stuck with the bill when we already have gas/oil infrastructure already up and mostly paid for.

Hydrogen is just greenwashed NG, and being pushed by the NG industry. It has been that way for 30+ years.

EaglesPDX

Nyland’s complaints are the same as those made about EV’s earlier, no place to charge. Home, solar powered hydrogen fuelers are as practical as home solar powered EV chargers.

Stimpacker

Really?
An EVSE has a contactor and some low voltage electronics.

A solar powered hydrogen unit will have the same plus a water supply, electrolysis unit, pressure fittings, hydrogen tank, regulator, pumps, valves, etc.

Mikael

Sure… because a hydrogen station only costs a $1 million when it’s outside someones home. Inside it then it is practically free…

EaglesPDX

“Sure… because a hydrogen station only costs a $1 million when it’s outside someones home. Inside it then it is practically free…”

You can buy one from Graingers for $10K (less than a Tesla Powerwall) but if you want to buy a $1M H2 generator, knock yourself out.

Lou Grinzo

I refuel my Leaf at home and at zero marginal carbon emissions, without putting solar panels on my house (which would be highly problematic for location and orientation reasons). How? I’ve signed up for 100% green electricity from a supplier beside my utility. Costs me something like 1 to 1.5 cents/kWh more; I don’t know the exact price because it’s so little I don’t car.

And as for the claim in you last sentence: Show your numbers, including sources. I study energy, car and climate issues extensively, and I don’t believe it for a nanosecond.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Home, solar powered hydrogen fuelers are as practical as home solar powered EV chargers.”

No. Just no.

$250,000 just for the hydrogen generator/ compressor/ storage unit — not counting the cost of the solar power generating system — is not “practical”. And nobody but a fool cell fanboy would try to claim otherwise.

It’s not just the high cost of the hydrogen fuel that makes fool cell cars completely impractical, it’s the astronomically high cost of the infrastructure required for the fuel.

https://insideevs.com/ivys-simple-fuel-hydrogen-station/

Nix

Eagles — just let me know where I can purchase a spark-free compressor pump that runs on household current that is capable of compressing a tank full of hydrogen to 12,000 PSI. Even if the hydrogen could magically be generated cheaply, you would still need to compress it well over 10,000 PSI in order to fill a tank to 10,000 PSI.

EaglesPDX
Mikael

You are funny. How do you expect that thing to charge a car when the output is up to 100 psi and you need 10 000 psi to fill the tank in the car?

I can buy you a chemistry kit for $10 for you to make some hydrogen at home, it is about as useful to fill the car. 😉

Bill Howland

Several commenters are under the impression that hydrogen electrolysis requires a compressor afterwards… Not true with models I have read about – those work at 10,000 psi (or more), and the only compression required is the relatively small amount needed to get the incoming water to this pressure. But seeing as in most locales this is not the cheapest way to do things, I expect most upcoming ‘home refuelers’, if they are ever made mainstream, will function on Natural Gas, with the waste heat being used to produce hot water or some other household heating need to greatly improve the ‘well to wheels’ efficiency.

TeslaInvestors
Oh yeah! Dr. Nyland, the unbiased authority on fuel cells! May be he did taste both of the items he talks about! Doesn’t this guy get paid from Tesla for selling more Teslas using his Amway like tricks? It doesn’t matter if you can charge at home. If you are on the go without any time to stop long for charging, then the 3-5 minute refill time is crucial. I for one, have transitioned from EV to FCEV and find it much much less stressful. It is far easier to adopt than electric cars. Bjorn is just trying to come up with lame duck excuses. One hydrogen station can serve 12 cars an hour. Even if there are couple of cars waiting, it’s at most 15 minutes. Compare that to 3-4 hour wait at supercharges, and we have thousands of those . And the superslow supercharging at times. The recharge time of fuel cell cars (70 miles a minute) will blow even Elon’s skull out of his mind! How much money has been spent on electric charging and incentives? How many parking spaces have been dedicated to EV charging? And what is the percent of electric cars today? How many… Read more »
Mark.ca

And you probably “taste” either yet you still expose your ignorance here. Home charging is not only important, it’s the most important thing about evs. It allows you to control your cost in addition to being super convenient. You won’t even be able to afford your H. And who is spending 3-4 hours at superchargers, you fool? Even lower end Ionic getst 10 to 80% in 15 minutes. Back under your rock now.

TeslaInvestors

And you need to learn how to read 🙂 I said, home charging doesn’t obviate the fast charging requirement. I made no mention if it is important for EVs. It is certainly not important for FCEVs. I as an FCEV driver don’t care for the extra headache. Neither will the 99.5% of people. FCEVs are no longer a science project.

Control your cost by charging at home? For gas, at least you have a choice. For electricity, you are bonded to the monopolistic utility company that feeds you power.

Mark.ca

I have pv at home, fool..so I control everything!
“For electricity, you are bonded to the monopolistic utility company that feeds you power.”
Maybe one of the many texans on here can show yo how their electric market looks like…

TeslaInvestors

Idiot, it’s sometimes better to keep your mouth shut to hide your stupidity, You are still controlled by the NEM rules,.

Lou Grinzo

By all means, call people idiots instead of backing up your claims with facts from reliable sources. That’s a great way to win a technical argument.

TeslaInvestors

Sorry, I just felt obligated to return the favor. Mark.ca, sorry. Will try more to keep it civil and not get into tit-for-tat.

But I did back it up. NEM is still there and is controlled by PUC. In Califronia, you can’t build an off grid house (afaik). And it gets super expensive to do that, if someone is even allowed to do that.

Pushmi-Pullyu

The only thing you “backed up” is your utter lack of facts or figures to support your argument in favor of the stupidity and insanity of trying to use hydrogen as an everyday fuel for powering cars.

Mark.ca

I am in CA so you don’t have to tell me how NEM works…it’s NEM2, btw. I see people all over installing new pv so NEM2 is just fine. I’m under NEM and with an initial 20 year contract so no negotiations of any kind required. What i produce they give it back to me when i need it. End of story! I don’t give a flying f%#* who controls what, it’s not relevant to me. And don’t apologize to me as I won’t return the favor. And who the hell told you that you can’t off grid in CA?!

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Idiot, it’s sometimes better to keep your mouth shut to hide your stupidity…”

It’s a demonstrable fact: Trolls are completely oblivious to unintentional irony!
😆 😆 😆

SparkEV

If you don’t care for the headache, why did you bother with FCEV instead of gasoline cars? You can get a Corolla for 1/3 the price of Mirai, and it’d have similar specs (better since Corolla seats 5) while having far better convenience of “billions and billions” of gas stations. If you bought your FCEV, I suggest you get rid of it ASAP, because it will be worthless when free fuel period expires.

Mark.ca

It’s because he doesn’t actually have the H car either. Let’s be real here, if you think ev are a hassle then H is definitely a dead end.

TeslaInvestors

Vastly different car. Go test drive a Clarity FCEV and then we can talk.
Oh, too bad. You can’t because there is a 12 month waiting list and every car built already has a customer’s name on it.
After driving Clarity FCEV, driving the Spark EV will feel like crap.

ffbj

Problem is it’s all been said before, for years, and FCEV just don’t have any takers. Sure if you only build a few hundred, you can sell a few hundred. Not a mass market vehicle, and it never will be.

Gasbag

“there is a 12 month waiting list and every car built already has a customer’s name on it.”

ThAt is not difficult when there are only a few dozen per month available.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Teslainvestors said:

“Go test drive a Clarity FCEV and then we can talk.”

The fact that you feel the need to lie and pretend you own a FCEV, when of course you don’t, is really all the proof we need that fool cell fanboys don’t actually believe a word of their own propaganda.

SparkEV

Clarity FCEV has 0 to 60 MPH time of 8.1 seconds while SparkEV has 7.2 seconds. Why would I pay triple the price for slower turtle? Besides, Clarity being huge means even more hassle finding parking. It is you who should test SparkEV, and you’ll realize how utterly slow crap FCEV are.

TeslaInvestors

Good try, mate! My comp to Spark EV wasn’t a jab at your moniker, but it was because that’s the EV I drove for few years 🙂 I still have it as the resale value is too low and it is good for errands and easy to park.

If you live by only the 0-60, then sure you shouldn’t bother. But there are lots of other more important factors for people to buy a car. Like, range, refueling time, number of seats, safety, ease of recharging, ride quality rattle/squeak/noise, and so on.
Rememer: Turtle won the race; the rabbit had to take rest. Recall “LIMP mode” in the Tesla? Even very cheap cars have beaten Teslas around Nurburgring.
But I couldn’t care less for 0-60 as long as it is powerful enough to merge into freeways and climb hills with ease.

Jason

Ha, ha, that’s hilarious! I can’t because they don’t exist where I live. FCEV is limited to a few very small markets, while BEV are pretty much available everywhere.
Drive your FCEV from California to New York and tell me how it goes? You can drive your BEV the same trip, even if it takes a God awful long time (Tesla excepted).
So on a convenience and utility scale it is ICE, BEV/PHEV then FCEV.

marshall

He doesn’t own the FCEV. He leases it. He gets $15,000 in fuel, a $5,000 rebate from California, and a HOV sticker.

Without these goodies, he wouldn’t look twice at a FCEV.

Gasbag

“For electricity, you are bonded to the monopolistic utility company that feeds you power.”

Nut up dude and act like an American. Solar power can give you a backbone. You don’t have to be a helpless victim all your life. The good news is your lease will be up in three years and you can re-evalute then.

HR

Here in the province of Quebec, Hydro-Quebec is state owned. And it delivers the same electricity to our homes for heating as it does for our (electric) cars. So I’m not sure there’s any “danger” here.

Djoni

You think people choose to buy gas 20% more because they raise the price overnight, with no explanation.

Imagine how it will be with an even scarse product like hydrogen.
You’re done!

You have no clue, but everyone and your mother but you, know that!

Jason

Seriously? In general it seems like people are paying $2-$4/gal, but electricity prices are less than $0.30/kWh (right down to effectively free if you have solar).
I’d say you have no idea about this aspect of owning an EV vs a gasoline car. One has price certainty and the other has price volatility.

Stimpacker

But as a consumer, FCEV are worse than ICE vehicles.
Pricier to buy.
Pricier to fuel, harder too.
Pricier to repair, harder too.
More parts to repair than a BEV.
No extra cargo room, no instant torque, no home charging.
No “wow” experience.

Gimme 1 good reason to switch to FCEV.

I’m in the Capitol of California. All are FCEVs here are bought and running on taxpayer dollars.

So yeah, I call Bull Sheeeeet on this and I get no money from Tesla.

TeslaInvestors

Your comment only shows your ignorance! I’ve no time to refute each of them.
Here is my thread on Clarity FCEV. I have test driven Model S and have driven a BEV for years.
https://insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/clarity-fuel-cell.1156/

If by “wow factor”, you mean hype, then agree about that. Elon has green washed too many folks 🙂
Ask Bjorn how much subsidies and rebates Norway is giving him compared to similar ICE cars.

I find it strange, that insideevs chooses to publish articles on rubbish comment from some ignorant about fuel cell, rather than publishing well researched articles on the subject. It almost feels like there is an agenda 🙂

Mikael

Started reading your thread and for example the Nissan Note e-Power has much longer range than the Clarity FCEV.

Pushmi-Pullyu

A -14 rating from readers for your serial Tesla Hater cultist FUD, and counting.

I’m quite gratified to see that nobody here is swallowing the fool cell fanboy manure you’re shoveling out.

And someone promoting the “hydrogen economy” hoax complaining about greenwashing is astoundingly hypocritical!

Pushmi-Pullyu

“But as a consumer, FCEV are worse than ICE vehicles.”

You left “Almost as polluting as gasmobiles” off your list.

Otherwise, well said, sir!

https://cleantechnica.com/2014/06/04/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-about-not-clean/

HR

Once you’ve had an electric car (and I mean BEV) and experienced the pleasure of charging at home, you don’t look back. I will never, ever, go back to a system where I have to go to a re-fueling station.

Now for those who don’t currently own an electric car, they can look at the alternatives,be it hydrogen or battery. I personally advocate BEV because it works (and you can charge at home). ASs for traveling long distance I just did a 1300km round-trip journey two weeks ago. Smooth like butter in my S75D. Just need minimal planning.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Teslainvestors said:

“I for one, have transitioned from EV to FCEV and find it much much less stressful.”

There is absolutely no rational reason whatsoever to believe anything posted by someone whose only purpose for posting here is to tear down Tesla’s good name, and bash battery-powered EVs in general.

Specifically, there is no good reason to believe you when you say you’re driving a fool cell car.

Mister G

CONNECT THE DOTS ON CLEAN AIR WAKE UP

John M

Is Elon’s skull inside his mind?

Assaf

…and I’ve been saying for years that the only practical FCV format long-term is as a plug-in hybrid. Since the motor is electric and batteries have become cheaper, this is a no-brainer solution that would obviate the need for gasoline and diesel. I believe that in Europe there are PHFCV converted vans.
Of course, it’s a niche solution. But it would enable a future fleet (~50 years in the future) where the majority of vehicles are BEVs, the majority of the rest are plug-in FC, and the smallest niche are gas/diesel, remaining only in places and applications where no “grid” of electricity or refueling is available (or in sectors of society that are most resistant to change).

Mikael

A range extended EV with a fuel cell running on a liquid fuel.

A PHLFCEV. 😉 (plugin-hybrid liquid fuel-cell electric vehicle) 😛 😛 😛

Nix

The problem with using FC as a range extender is that you can already run a range extender on 100% bio-fuels, or synthetic fuels, or CNG, etc.

I see no advantage to using FC over those options in areas already far from population centers, where tailpipe emissions aren’t a critical problem in the first place. Any carbon-neutral or low carbon fuel would suffice for small numbers of those vehicles. And all those fuels are much more portable for low volume production, and can be used in multi-fuel applications where a vehicle can use bio fuels, synth fuels, CNG, and gasoline with the same engine (omnivore engines).

Having small volume FC filling stations in remote regions that serve only to provide range extender fuel would be about as expensive a way to distribute a small amount of fuel to a small number of people as I can imagine.

Prsnep

Tesla fan doesn’t like hydrogen vehicles. Color me surprised.

Mark.ca

Can be said for any ev fan out there.

SparkEV

It’s not just Tesla fan. Price of 1kg of H in San Diego is $16.50/kg. That’s equivalent to $16.50/gallon of gas to fuel Prius / Ioniq. Only an idiot would pay that, which means whoever keeps FCEV beyond free fuel period is an …

Mikael

It’s hard for anyone with a basic understanding of science, physics and economics to like them. They are taking time and resources away from actual good solutions.

They are fine as side projects and nisch uses but should not be anyone’s primary objective (I’m looking at you Toyota).

prsnep

That’s harsh. I think the 3 biggest problems with hydrogen are these: 1. cost of fuel cell, 2. cost of fueling stations, and 3. loss of energy in the production of hydrogen as well as in the production of electricity in the consumption of hydrogen.

The main benefits are HFCVs: 1. very fast “charging”, 2. high energy density 3. range scales up easily without adding too much extra weight, 4. Hydrogen acts as a battery when there is excess grid power.

Like anything, the cost of fuel cell and charging stations will come down with scale and additional research. It will never be as efficient as electric vehicles, but both electrolysis and fuel cell stacks can get more efficient over time. Such technologies are already being demonstrated. I think HFCVs confer enough benefits that they can coexist with battery vehicles. In fact, fuel cells vehicles and battery vehicles are extremely complimentary. There is no reason the electric camp and the fuel cell camp need to be so antagonistic towards each other.

prsnep

Remembered another benefit of HFCVs: 5. The range does not degrade over time.

Pushmi-Pullyu

And BEVs don’t have an expiration date, a “DO NOT REFILL AFTER…” date, stamped on the car… as fool cell cars do.

https://insideevs.com/2016-toyota-mirai-refuel-2029/

SparkEV

Drawback to H is potential for leakage and expensive repair service. Every car I’ve had except SparkEV had freon leak, and that’s with giant xCFC molecule. I’m curious how long tiny H molecules will go without leaking in automotive environment.

Djoni

That remain to be proved.
The fuel cell stack have been prone to lose efficiency* over time, sometime becoming useless after less than 100 k miles.
They’re working on it, but only time will tell.
*Not having a good one from the start, but educate yourself before calling name to everyone.
Here a valuable link that I post, contrary of some so called “god of knowledge”
Have fun!
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/fuel_cell_technology

Prsnep

I did not know that. Thanks for the link. I appreciate real, non-snarky criticisms about what I’ve written.

Mikael

Three biggest problems: 1. Cost of fuel 2. Cost of fuel 3. Cost of fuel

Then there another 100 problems or so, some that you mentioned.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“That’s harsh.”

I’m sorry if you find physics, the laws of nature, thermodynamics, and basic economics to be “harsh”. Wishful thinking does not help to engineer a practical car.

“If only the world weren’t governed by the unfair and cruel laws of thermodynamics and economics, the hydrogen economy could rule the world.” – HVACman, comment at InsideEVs.com, July 8, 2015

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Tesla fan doesn’t like hydrogen vehicles. Color me surprised.”

If hydrogen-powered cars were actually practical, if they didn’t deserve to be called “fool cell cars”, then Tesla would be making those instead of making BEVs.

Duh!

TJKR

Hydrogen is a no go for cars and trucks but has amazing energy density.. triple energy density than gas, diesel and liquefied natural gas… 40 Kwh/kg… hundreds more than lithium-ion battery. It will be ideal for aircraft.

sola

The weight of the fuel cell stack and support equipment negates most of that energy density.

Fuel energy density alone is meaningless. You always need to consider the whole propulsion system.

Prsnep

It negates much of the energy density on a small passenger car but not on pickups or 18 wheelers.

TJKR

Or large passenger aircraft.

SparkEV

Except passenger planes are very sensitive to fuel cost. With H being priced 5X gasoline, there’s no way airlines will use it. Being too expensive for wide adoption, price will not come down.

Pushmi-Pullyu

There are no large passenger aircraft powered by hydrogen, and there never will be any practical ones. Hydrogen can’t possibly compete with aviation fuel on the basis of volume, nor even weight when you include the weight of the very heavy H2 fuel tanks.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Hydrogen is a no go for cars and trucks but has amazing energy density.. triple energy density than gas…”

Triple the gravimetric (mass-based) energy density doesn’t help much when the volumetric (volume-based) energy density is so very, very low! That’s why H2 has to be compressed to such an extreme amount — 10,000 PSI — as compared to more practical fuels.

The amount of energy carried by H2 fuel tanks is rather limited, as compared to gasmobiles, because the tanks have to be extremely strong and heavy, which means they have to be much smaller than what’s really needed. That’s why (for example) the Mirai has two fuel tanks instead of just one.

Bill Howland

Hydrogen enthusiasts would have an easier time of making their case if the heavily subsidized price of H2 was a bit lower. As is, its about the most expensive way to propel a vehicle there is. But with places like California’s ‘Hydrogen Highway’, and the head of CARB herself driving an H2 Murai, If Gov’ts WANT this to work it will since they have no reticence to increases taxes on everyone to pay for it. But I agree with BJORN that, all things being equal, it is a bit of a boondoggle, but since when did any gov’t care about that?

Its a fun educational exercise to think of ways that the multi-million dollar dispenseries could be made cheaper to purchase, operate and maintain. But from these eyes that appears to be doing things the hard way, at least in the states where we ALREADY have very fine gasoline infrastructure as a backup.

I wager it will be quite a while before H2 vehicles sell better than hybrids and plug-in hybrids – the latter reducing gasoline consumption by a whopping 70-90% depending on the long-distance driving patterns of the particular PHEV owner.

TeslaInvestors

Agreed, Hydrigen costs too much today. But you have to realize that costs are sometimes artificially modified. Like, gas is expensive in Europe because of huge taxes. Without it, the electric cars won’t be competitive in refueling. To some extent, that is also true in USA.

But part of today’s hyrdrogen station cost is fixed. Today there is just one pump. When more pumps are added at same site, incremental cost will be much less. Check out the news from hydrogen society. The per car cost is same as the cost of installing a L2 charger at home.

Mikael

Because there is no tax on electricity?

Electricity is at around $0,06 per kWh without taxes. Gasoline is at $0,6 per liter without taxes. That makes $0,9-1,2 per 100 km for electricity and $3-6 per 100 km for gasoline.

Take away the taxes and electricity still beats the crap out of petrol.

Hydrogen on the other hand are at ~$8-15 per 100 km, untaxed. With the possibility to drop down to $4,5-6 per 100 km when at scale. Still untaxed. The fixed cost for hydrogen is very small compared to the variable cost that are physically mandated.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“The per car cost is same as the cost of installing a L2 charger at home.”

Maybe in some alternate world where the laws of physics work differently. But in this reality, that’s never going to be possible.

Rachel Maddow, on her show the other day, talked about “Earth-1”, which is where most of us live, as opposed to some alternate world that some people apparently live in; an alternate world where “alternative facts” are actually true!

I dunno what world Teslainvestors is living it, but it sure ain’t Earth-1! 😉

Prsnep

Heavily subsidized price of hydrogen is $0 for 3 years – the length of a lease term.

SparkEV

And then what happens to the car after lease? No one will drive the thing at $16.50/kg. Crush em! Throwing away a car after 3 years is just poor business, not to mention bad for the environment.

Prsnep

I’d imagine the manufacturers would benefit from those cars staying in circulation even if it means extending the free furling programs and low lease terms. The chance that they get crushed after 3 years is next to zero, imho.

zzzzzzzzzz

Around 10 €/kg or 1000 yen/kg is no much different than similar gas car fueled by gasoline taxed to $5-$7/gal as in most developed countries (except US). May be even cheaper in some cases. It just about resale price that will adjust TCO for fuel cost/savings.

Anyway, who cares what happens with few thousand low production cars that are made to test and showcase technology? It equally applies to BEV cars – they are also impossible at today’s technology level without extreme subsidies, incentives and pollution to make batteries & electricity. It is not what is intended in the long run though, the idea is that after initial incentives the new technology will improve and will be able to stand on its own more or less. I think it should be obvious.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“…BEV cars – they are also impossible at today’s technology level without extreme subsidies…”

Wrong again, Mr. FUDster.

Looks like Tesla cars will be sold in most U.S. States with no government subsidies, starting this fall. And probably starting next year with the Chevrolet Volt EV.

That thing which you claim is “impossible”.
😆 😆 😆

Ambulator

The Volt is not a BEV.

AnonyMouse

“Because fueling stations are so sparse, long-distance travel is currently out of the question for most HFCV owners.”

Sorry Wade, but with regards to Europe this claim is BS and Fake News. In Europe you or Bjorn can drive a HFCV from Norway to as fast east as Spain or the U.K., and as far south as Italy.

Below is a map of hydrogen fueling stations in Europe.

https://www.netinform.net/H2/H2Stations/H2Stations.aspx

Bobish

Did You look at the map? If we look at open stations, then You are not able to go the distance between some of the gabs. Oh and You are stranded if one of them are broken. In the future it will be possible though… 😉

fotomoto

Same arguments were used against EV charging stations.

Pushmi-Pullyu

The difference is that the number of EV charging stations is growing rapidly, but the number of H2 fueling stations never will.

TeslaInvestors

Yes, same for Japan. It has 100 stations and that is more than sufficient to drive anywhere. Now, the price of the fuel cell cars and the hydrogen itself needs to come down. Number and locaton of refueling stations is not a concern for Japan, major parts of Europe and California.

Toyota moves to increase Mirai productionten fold. I’m sure Toyota knows a thing or two about mass market cars. No. not that $55k mass market car.
https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/corporate/22647198.html

Gasbag

“Toyota moves to increase Mirai productionten fold. I’m sure Toyota knows a thing or two about mass market cars. No. not that $55k mass market car.”

Of course not that $55k car. They are talking about that $59k Mirai but I’m not sure I’d call it a mass market car since they are planning for a max of 30k units per year. That is not a lofty goal for 2022. Considering that the H FCEV projections make Elon’s projections look reasonable I wouldn’t count on Toyota over achieving here.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Now, the price of… the hydrogen itself needs to come down.”

Yeah, good luck with finding some magic way to alter the laws of nature enough to allow H2 to be sold profitably at a filling station at a price which can compete with gasoline. 🙄

But if you do find that magic, then why fiddle around with fuel cells? Just go straight to perpetual motion; that would be just as likely to happen and far cheaper!

Bunny

Loves is adding Hydrogen to its west coast locations

Hydrogen also works really well for forklifts at Walmart and Amazon distribution centers, this has become a real successful niche for hydrogen use.

JimGord

And do not forget hydrogen’s best kept secret. Check page 86 of the 2017 Mirai owners manual to find that the car stops running when its tank safety certifications ends in year 14. It will not operate until the tanks are replaced just like BBQ tanks. Who is foolish enough to buy a car with an expiry date?

TeslaInvestors

The same type of people who like to do BBQ ? But seriously, is that a real attempt at FUD? 14 years is a long time and it’s only the tank that needs replacement. How long are the Tesla Rodasters running? Check out the recent videos that are surfacing about lots full of tesla in Norway waiting months for repair, some with dead main batteries.
No worries about Mirai tanks. Toyota is going to make 10 times more tanks soon, before the 2020 BBQ season 🙂

Gasbag

“Toyota is going to make 10 times more tanks soon, before the 2020 BBQ season 🙂”

And I thought “post 2020” meant sometime after 2020.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Apparently time also works differently on Earth-2, where Tesla bashing fool cell fanboys live, along with the laws of physics working differently. 😉

Pushmi-Pullyu

“14 years is a long time and it’s only the tank that needs replacement.”

That’s probably just as untrue as everything else you’ve posted in this thread. Long-term exposure to hydrogen embrittles the plumbing, which includes all the valves and pipes carrying H2 to the fuel cell stack. And what about the fuel cell stack itself, which develops cracks over time? Won’t that need replaced at the same time?

Nope, quite probably not just the tank itself. More like “When the expiration date arrives, the car needs to be junked, because replacing everything which needs replaced would exceed the value of the car.”

MikeM

“When the expiration date arrives, the car needs to be junked . . . .”

What a perfect “vehicle” for the DIY conversion enthusiast!
The H2 junker has just about everything built in except a full sized battery and maybe a beefed up controller.

Pull out the tanks and FC and you’ve got a huge running start on your next home-brewed EV project.

I knew there had to be something positive to say about FCEVs!

Pushmi-Pullyu

Bjørn says that fool cell cars are B.S., and Toyota admits that they’re fueled by B.S., in an ad which itself was just more B.S. promoting the “hydrogen economy” hoax.

Seems to be a theme, here! 😉

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/04/27/toyota-mirai-fueled-bullsht-ad-total-bs/

Martin T.

100% Spot on, just have to have politicians who are a bit thick on mathematics of science to finally understand Hydrogen for transport is JUST A SCAM that wastes energy.
When we are supposed to be becoming more energy efficient !

zzzzzzzzzz

Wow Tesla fanboys and fangirls started noticing hydrogen stations 😉 It must be really disgusting excrement floating in their Great Leader Showing Us The Great & Bright Battery Future Kool Aid drink 😉

I understand their rightful irritation, it should be quite annoying to wait and wait and wait in 100k € Tesla car at charging station somewhere in Denmark that has more hydrogen stations capable of recharging car to 100% in 3 minutes than Tesla chargers, but none of these stations work with Tesla…

Pushmi-Pullyu

Well let’s see, you can spend what? Maybe 20-35 minutes driving to a hydrogen fueling station to fill up your fool cell car, and the same amount of time driving back home… or spend just 15-30 seconds to plug a BEV in at night and the same to unplug it in the morning.

Tell me again how fool cell cars are “more convenient” because you have to drive to one of the rare H2 fueling stations to fill them? For some reason, I never can get that. 🙄

Steven

The practicality of HFC vehicles remains about twenty years away.

heisenberghtseriously

After having read 104 Comments on this topic, I conclude that I sucessfully wasted a certain amount of my lifetime.

Hydrogen. Niche. Fancy. Expensive with unclear pathway to getting cheaper. Might be useful far in the future… I call it a side-project.
BEV. Nice. Expensive with clear pathway to getting cheaper. Is already useful in a lot of cases.

Now I can happily continue wasting my time reading:

https://electrek.co/2018/06/11/tesla-ai-director-insights-autopilot-computer-vision-neural-net/

Far less boring… Boring… Boring… Hey! Any news from underground?

notting

Summary of that article: Guy using a technology where people said some years ago things like “Because charging stations are so sparse, range is so short and charging is so slow, it doesn’t make sense” says similar things concerning a technology with more range and much faster “charging”.

He also says like “when I’m around Oslo […] I plug in at home”. Well, a FCEV is still a EV, so technically I shouldn’t be a problem also to plug it at home. But the first hybrids also weren’t pluggable at home…

notting

Brandon

For passenger cars, about the only place I see for HFCVs is for apartment dwellers and such who don’t have access to a place to plug in where they park. Having said that, I still believe BEVs will offer a more compelling option for mainstream consumers, mainly because of the cost of hydrogen vehicles and the hydrogen fuel.
What will obviously need to happen tho is DCFC infrastructure for the 1/3rd of households in the U.S. and the 1/2 in Europe who simply don’t have access to plug in at home.
What that DCFC infrastructure will look like is going to be very interesting to see. Fastned in the Netherlands is planning their infrastructure to cater to this need.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

In California, it costs about 1$Million to get a HFC filling station built and certified.

Boy will those start popping up EVERYWHERE!

EaglesPDX

Wow. That’s about $2M less than a gasoline station.

Bill Ramsey

Those many who think hydrogen is dead tech or not worth pursuing need to tell China right away. Because China is all in for H2. They’re building hydrogen cities, mass producing fuel cells and intend to dominate the tech in a few years. You can see by searching “Hydrogen China”. They just built the first H2 station in Wuhan. Hydrogen haters lost. That will become apparent very soon.

Mister G

You can’t change physics and the laws of thermodynamics LOL hydrogen is less efficient and practical than battery electric vehicles. GO TESLA GO DESTROY DIRTY GAS GUZZLERS AND DIESELS LOL CONNECT THE DOTS ON CLEAN AIR WAKE UP FOLKS co2.earth

ky thanh

I feel so sorry for you. You have made me laugh 🙂