How Chevrolet Is Conducting Final Tests On Bolt

JUN 16 2016 BY STEVEN LOVEDAY 180

Chevrolet Bolt EV

Chevrolet Bolt EV

Production of the Chevrolet Bolt EV is set to start this October, with retail deliveries promised before year’s end. The final phase of three primary testing phases is now underway. This phase generally occurs in the last six to nine months prior to production. In the final few months, employees are given pre-production vehicles for daily use.

Chevrolet Bolt EV Interior

Chevrolet Bolt EV Interior

Prior to the third and final testing phase, vehicles go through two very rigorous initial phases. In the first phase, the “mule” phase, older generation vehicles or even other models are gradually fitted with parts for the new vehicle. These mules accumulate miles for a year or even several years before an actual prototype is constructed. Parts for the Bolt EV were initially tested using Spark EVs and Volts.

Phase two is when the actual prototype begins to be dealt with. Most parts that will go into the production of the vehicle are included in this phase, and the vehicle begins to look like what the final product will look like. In 2015, about 100 prototypes of the 2017 Chevy Bolt EV were built.

In the third phase, several hundred pre-production vehicles are built for various purposes. The cars are built on the assembly line by the employees that will eventually be building the production vehicles, as “practice”. Some of the cars are used simply for marketing purposes, auto shows, public test drives, and photo shoots. The rest are put into durability fleets and captured test fleets.

Durability fleets run the cars through all of the typical tests and accumulate many miles in every type of driving condition. Captured fleets, the ultimate final test, put the cars in the hands of employees. The vehicles are taken home and driven daily in real life situations. The employees report all issues that they discover, before production starts. If there are any major concerns, sometimes production can be pushed back due to captured fleet discoveries.

A new car model may accumulate four to five million miles of testing before the first person takes delivery. Although this is a monumental attempt to work all of the bugs out, we all know that recalls still happen on a regular basis.

Source: Forbes

Categories: Chevrolet

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180 Comments on "How Chevrolet Is Conducting Final Tests On Bolt"

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I really, really, really hope the GM dealer network does a better job of embracing these than they did the Volt.

I bought my wife a Volt a month ago to stop her from stealing mine all the time. The dealer spent 15 minutes trying to convince me the ELR was all electric.

After spending 30 minutes trying to talk me out of a Volt and into a Cruze.

Argh

Well, on the bright side.. many dealers aren’t even certified to sell the Volt. They think it is too much trouble and expense to sell a single car that they believe nobody wants. On the other hand, when the Bolt EV comes to town they may want to get certified because then they would be missing out on selling 2 electrified vehicles. Same will go for training. So the Bolt EV will likely help Volt sales simply by getting the dealers more motivated to sell them.

you should have immeditley said I want to speak to another sales person.

Exactly!

Demand to see the one most knowledgeable about the Volt, preferably after speaking to an average dimwit salesperson for long enough for them to know you’re serious about buying one.

It’s amazing what a salesperson is able to learn after seeing his colleague collect a commission he thought was his!

If we all do this cumulatively six, seven times per dealer, word will get out that money will be lost by those who are clueless, and before long, no dumbass salespersons. It’s a shame to have to look to this method, but it can be effective…

Sadly, the person with the most mis-information was the sales manager.

This is the downside from GM lieing to everyone, INCLUDING THEIR DEALERS for over 18 months with the release of the Volt.

It seems dealers need to relearn how the car works. I can’t fault the dealer for memorizing fraudulent information from the corporation.

Bill I purchased my Gen 1 at KIPO in Ransomville. The sales person who sold me still calls from time to time with questions that she doesn’t know how to answer. I went in to look at the Gen 2 and she said that she isn’t even going to try and tell me about the car, tossed me a set of keys and told me to take it home for the evening and let her know my impressions.
I should ask for a commission as I suspect I’ve sold a few for them. LOL.
My next will be a BOLT

Doug you must be quite local to purchase from KIPO. Email me at william_e_howland@yahoo.com and lets compare notes.

I have one question perhaps you or someone else can answer on GEN 2. There is a shaft that rises from the drive train and goes to an actuator. I know the Gen 2 has 2 active clutches, 1 freewheeling clutch, and 2 planetary gearsets. Is this one of the clutches?

“you should have immeditley said I want to speak to another sales person.”

Or go to another dealership.

Maybe you can’t due to your location. But generally speaking, Chevy and Ford got the most dealers in the country.

We should only reward “good” dealers with our money so they will have to change eventually.

Good dealer that sell PEVs do exist. You just have to look harder.

Your comment reads like an ad for online direct sales.

Uhh. Why was a Chevy dealer talking to you about a Cadillac when you were there ready to buy a Volt? You didn’t go to the same dealer you bought your first volt?

What dealer would argue with you about the car you were ready to buy?

Sometimes these internet tales strain credulity

Not sure where you are located, but outside California there are not many sales people motivated to sell Volts. Perhaps the Volt carries a lower commission? My attempt to lease a Volt a few years ago went like this… Finally convinced my wife it would work for her (she love my LEAF but hated the range). Searched online for an inventory Volt with the color and specs she liked. Also searched for all the Volt promos currently being offered. Called the dealership and asked to speak with their “Volt sales specialist”. Asked if the vehicle was indeed in their inventory, he confirmed. Drove down to the dealership immediately after the call. Car isn’t there, if fact they have no Volts at all on the lot, so nothing my wife can drive. He only figured this out after walking us around the lot on a hot Houston summer afternoon. Offered us a Silverado, because it was in the same color my wife liked. He wanted to talk numbers with us, even though he had no idea when he would get the car. Then proceeded to not offer any of the national incentives. We left and my wife said she wouldn’t buy… Read more »

I feel this is a common practice for car salespeople to confirm the car is on their lot. Until the customer drives to the lot and magically it has disappeared.

Just another reason to buy a tesla. I can’t stand dealing with dealerships!

“Asked if the vehicle was indeed in their inventory, he confirmed. Drove down to the dealership immediately after the call.

Car isn’t there, if fact they have no Volts at all on the lot,”

Wow. I think that experience calls for a Yelp review.

Dealers want to sell what is on their lot, not what they have to order. It’s all about moving inventory, and many dealers will have their sales droids say whatever it takes to move current inventory.

I went to look at a 2017 Volt and the sales droid tried to talk me into a Malibu. I told him I didn’t want a Malibu, I wanted a Volt, and I’d even begun to install a 220V line to the garage and had a charging station on order. The droid blinked his eyes and stepped back, then said “oh you had better get an electrician to do that!”

I just walked out. I’ve decided to buy a used Volt.

@Jacked Beanstalk

Hahaha!

Well depending on the municipality, the dealer could get into legal trouble if they told you anything else..

There is something to be said for ‘plug and cordset’ wallboxes.

If they are hardwired, then the inspector concerns himself with EVERYTHING.

If Its a bare outlet by itself in the garage, that is the only thing for the inspector to inspect, and there are inexpensive models of wallboxes with factory installed cordsets, eliminating this other issue. Purchased after the inspector leaves, of course.

Yeah, I’m going with a breaker box so I can add both 120 and 220 volt outlets. The joker who originally wired the garage thought it would be funny to put the entire three car garage on a single circuit. He thought it would be even funnier to put the microwave on the same circuit as the halogen track lighting.

Please remember to:

1) Use 4 wire cable at 60 deg centigrade capacity rating.

2) Buy the option ‘Equipment ground bar’ for your panel.

3). Remove and discard the green bonding screw.

Thanks for the tips, I knew them but it’s always better safe than sorry. I also study the local codes before any project like this so I’m up to date on the latest safety provisions.

60 C wire? Seriously? Where do you live, Alaska?

The temperature limitation of the thermoplastic may indeed be 90 degrees Centigrade or higher, yet the inspector will look for 60 degree sizing on Service Entrance Cable used as sub-feeder, and also non-metalic sheathed cable “Saturday Helper”, “ROMEX”, etc.

This is in a state of flux, but my State still uses NFPA #70 2008. Over 98% of the continental US and parts of Mexico put the force of law to NFPA #70.

Specifically this limitation means:

Copper:

#14 – 12 amp charging.
#12 – 16 amp charging.
#10 – 24 amp charging.
#8 – 32 amp charging.
#6 – 44 amp charging (some inspectors may allow 48).
#2 – 72 amp charging (some may allow 80).

Use 2 smaller numbers for aluminum, and be aware of the shining and greasing required, besides cadmium plated terminations.

It is very common to wire the entire garage into 1 circuit. Generally most people use there garage to house their car or for storage both thing that generally require very little power. People who end up using there garages as a workshop or need power for an EV has to get extra wiring done.

The latest NEC requires a dedicated 20 ampere outlet behind each garage stall. EG a 4 car garage would require 4- 20 amp 120 volt dedicated outlets and circuits.

Unfortunately, my state doesn’t currently use it, preferring the 2008 instead.

Because he would get a higher sales commission. Duh.

taser54 said: “What dealer would argue with you about the car you were ready to buy? “Sometimes these internet tales strain credulity” You write as if you’ve never had to deal with a major auto dealer in the USA. Pretty much everyone I have ever talked to about dealing with stealerships dealerships has had similar tales. My first car was a Honda Civic CVCC. I knew what I wanted; it was merely a matter of finding a dealership which would sell me one at a reasonable price. I was a naive first-time buyer. After agreeing on a specific car, and agreeing to pay a whopping $50 off the sticker price (again, I was a first-time naive buyer), the dealer asked me to sign a waiver that stated the car had a few hundred miles on it. “Why does it have all that mileage?” I asked. “I don’t know”, I was told. In hindsight, it’s obvious I was sold a demo, and I should have gotten an approx. 10% discount because of that, in addition to whatever other deal I should have negotiated. Now, taser54, does that strain your credulity too? If so, then my guess is that either you’ve never… Read more »

Look, I don’t spend all my time on these forums like you do. I have to wonder how you have the time to respond to dozens of posts in each thread here. Are you paid for it?

I will note, your honda civic story has nothing to with this thread generally (it’s about GM), or my response to the poster, specifically (wondering why a poster who supposedly bought a volt before, was happy with that sale, but apparently did not return to that dealer for the wife’s car).

Dealerships are staffed by professional LIARS. That’s the truth. Sometimes they traffic in small lies, like hiding the fact that a car was beat on as a demo. Other times they tell big whoppers like “that ELR is an EV!” Most of the time they just spew misinformation because they don’t bother to inform themselves.

This thread is about dealerships in general and you question weather a dealership would attempt to sell you something that makes the seller more money. It is very relevant to the topic.

Taser54 said:

“I have to wonder how you have the time to respond to dozens of posts in each thread here.”

Exaggerate much?

“Are you paid for it?”

Nope, just retired, with a lot of time on my hands, and a keen interest in the EV revolution.

And frankly, if someone wanted to pay someone to shill online for them, they’d want someone more soft-spoken and not as “sharp elbowed” as a grouch like Pushy! 😎

They don’t make as much money on service when you buy an EV!

I’m not a fan of the dealership model, but must admit that good ones do exists. When I was shopping last Spring, I had typically wretched experience at one of the local Fiat dealers here in Portland. I knew vastly more about the 500e’s specifications than the salesman, and he kept steering towards an ICE model. Infuriating. The three Chevrolet dealers I emailed abut the Spark EV surprised me by jumping through hoops to get my business. I did my test drive at the most convenient location, the salesman was easy going and politely. I went home, got the required information for the lease to them electronically, and returned the following day to sign documents and drive home a freshly washed and fully charged car. Easiest auto transaction ever.

I’m sure it gets increasingly more difficult for those in moral rural areas (less dealer competition), or areas not known for strong environmental regulation. In this regard, those of us in CARB states have a greater selection of models, and more sympathetic dealers.

Nice. Which Portland dealer? I’m tempted to wait to the end of the year when they’ll be dumping Spark EVs, and tow it (behind my little SUV) up to Seattle.

Same experience during a test drive of a 2017 a few months ago, John. None of the salesmen knew how the car worked. The car was still in “transport mode”, which caused the ICE to come on repeatedly even though battery was only one-half depleted. The tried to convince me that was normal operation, until one guy at the dealership knew enough to disable the “transport mode”.

European point of view

On the other hand you have Tesla and is CEO who are on the rush to compress all these normal delays .

We get the same thing from our CIO. He wants innovation not stability. Well, the main system we support is an ERP. Without stability (and extensive testing), there is no system.

Yeah, I gotta say that if you really want the car that will have better quality control, the GM Bolt is probably the one to get.

I admire both strategies:
1) GM is carefully designing and thoroughly testing their Bolt to get it right.
2) Tesla is pushing hard to speed up the manufacture of the Model 3 that is very highly desired and will revolutionize the auto industry (IMHO).

If you are in the market for these vehicles, take that into consideration. Personally, I’m still going with the Model 3 because of its specifications & Supercharging ability despite the fact that I worry a little bit about some bugs it might have.

I have an Opel Ampera (Volt) and the Finnish menus are full of typos and translation errors. It’s like the translation is done on Bing and left at that.
Nothing would’ve been easier for GM than to spellcheck this small detail of the user interface that has a great impact on the feel (or lack of) quality. They did not.

You write English fluently enough. Use those menus. Having had more than my share of problems with Ev’s lately – I think you’ll agree its a small sacrifice, since nothing is really wrong.

You’re missing the point.

I do. I also sit on the seat that has the perforated leather sewn crooked, under the headlining that is cut too small to fit under the door seals and between the bumpers that are fitted poorer than on my brother’s old 2002 Fiat.
The point is that GM’s quality control is nothing to celebrate.

Bad comment Bill, he has a good point.

Considering the English proficiency in Scandinavia, I’m surprised they even bother with language localization.

Oh! What a selfish comment! I would be really upset if my car didn’t display correctly in my native language!
What would you say if there were many mistakes in English? Switch to the Spanish display language because there are less errors?!?
Stop staring at your big red, white and blue belly for a moment please.

IMO it would’ve been better not to rather than do it so poorly.

It’s because those Finnish words are too damn long! 🙂

(disclaimer: I have Finnish heritage)

Have you ever seen a Stop sign in Wales?!
😉

I dunno, the Welsh town of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch may be too small for one.

LOL – inappropriate, but hilarious…being stuck at work this evening, that really lightened the mood – thanks!

Excellent article. Very informative. We don’t always get to appreciate the complexity behind putting a new car on the road.

Neither does Elon. 😉

I suspect your knowledge of what someone does or does not know, is perhaps influenced by your jealously of their success?

Because if you really knew what Elon does, I know you wouldn’t be wasting your time HERE, whining over him, his companies, or his products.

It’s not jealousy, it’s a recognition that Teslas are unreliable cars full of bugs and design flaws.

Early Model X buyers are literally beta testers. I admire what Tesla are trying to do but no way would I buy one of their rolling junkyards.

I imagine many a Tesla owner would beg to differ with your hyperbolic assertion.

If you read the X forum on teslamotorcars.com, you’ll find that while many (most?) owners love them, the word “beta” comes up a lot. The condition some of the cars were delivered in was simply shocking. Let’s not overlook that these were $100-$140k vehicles.

Let us also not overlook that it is not possible to verify that anything you read in a forum is true or that the commenter even owns a Tesla. I’m not saying all reported incidents are lies and fabrications; I’m saying it’s impossible to know for sure and there are a lot of people with strong motivation to trash the car.

There’s also plenty of picture and video evidence. Just sayin’.

Yeah, dRanger, but in general, where there is smoke there is fire, – and I’ve had plenty of negative experiences myself.

Note: (to eliminate the silliness) the only corporation I accused of Lieing in the comments was GM.

Mike said:

“If you read the X forum on teslamotorcars.com… The condition some of the cars were delivered in was simply shocking.”

While I certainly don’t want to downplay the fact that Tesla does start delivering its new car models before they’ve gotten all of the bugs worked out — remember that the early Roadsters were delivered with a non-functioning 2-speed transmission? — at the same time, let’s remember that you can see similar complaints on every forum dedicated to a specific make of car.

Let’s also remember that Tesla has the highest owner satisfaction rating of any auto maker: 98%. So yeah, there are a lot of problems with every new model of Tesla car. But those new owners with complaints are still a tiny fraction of all Tesla car owners.

And I know many would agree with my assertion.

Tesla build unreliable cars. That’s a fact. Deal with it.

Jacked…do you have the credit or cash to lease/purchase a model x? If you don’t its OK, I can’t and that’s why I leased 2016 leaf.

My income has nothing to do with the quality of Tesla’s products.

More complete BS Jacked @#$%, Tesla could not have the HIGHEST CUSTOMER SATISFACTION RATING in the industry if its cars “…Teslas are unreliable cars full of bugs and design flaws.”

Then explain why Tesla does so poorly in every reliability survey publicly available. CR gives them the highest reliability marks out of any survey, and even CR cannot recommend their products!

“CR gives them the highest reliability marks out of any survey…”

That’s the second time you’ve made that assertion. Can you back it up?

I’ve only seen reports on two (2) reliability surveys for the Model S. Have you seen more?

Since CR doesn’t actually report numbers but only a vague description such as “Excellent”, “Good”, “Fair”, etc, it’s hard to see how you could possibly claim that CR gives higher or lower reliability ratings than other sources. There’s no way of comparing them directly, since — correct me if I’m wrong — CR doesn’t report actual numbers (other than the total number of people responding to their survey).

I don’t think what you’re claiming here can be backed up with actual facts.

I heard Elon on conference calls try to explain away Tesla’s production and delivery delays and the companies poor execution.

Elon tried to explain away missing his annual sales guidance by saying he didn’t foresee and was astounded by the fact that in December there could be bad weather that delayed deliveries, and that people would go on vacation for the holidays and be unable to accept delivery.

On the 2015 year-end conference call, Elon sounded child-like and dumbfounded that he had only recently discovered that just one or two missing parts means that Tesla can’t finish assembing the Model X and production would have to be delayed until the missing parts were delivered. Literally everyone in automotive industry knows this. Elon gave a lame excuse that building cars was really hard. It might be hard, but it’s not exactly rocket science.

Logistics can be more difficult to execute than rocket science because there are so many players involved. Lots of chances for failure, esp when it’s out of your control.

Sven

When are you going to start your own car company?

If you can do better, then do it.

Very well put, Sven! Now let the ad hominem begin.

Hey, the non-EV driving Dr. FudSpreader makes another appearance to spread his self-serving, anti-Tesla FUD as a well known shorter/gambler.

sven, I see you’re experiencing a flare-up of your chronic TES (Tesla Envy Syndrome).

But wait, there’s hope! Those suffering from this debilitating condition can get instant relief by selling off their “short” interest in Tesla’s stock.

Here’s hoping you’ll take the cure, sven.

“Tesla envy happens when other people have, ahem, long positions and yours is too short.” –Jim Whitehead

The more “modern and advanced” approach is to dispense with the testing and have your PR department and your Twitter account attack anyone with the temerity to suggest your under tested products have problems.

Innovation at its finest.

Did you have your head thrown back with your arm across your forehead when you typed that. Give me a break! Every car company in the U.S. tests their cars!

Considering the never ending bovine scat that Tesla has to put up with, I don’t blame Musk in the least for coming to its defense, when the trolls ‘come-a-callin’.

As far as bovine scat is concerned, few people in the world are in Elon’s class. As far as trolls are concerned, there is no shortage of pitchfork-wielding Tesla fanboys spewing self righteous hatred against anyone with the temerity to suggest that there might be a problem in Teslaland.

Rot starts at the top.

Success starts at the top, which is why Tesla (and SpaceX) are so successful.

“Success starts at the top, which is why Tesla (and SpaceX) are so successful.”

Successful in bloated stock price and fan base, but NOT in a single dime of profit…

It is all depending on how you measure it.

DonC, you almost always makes serious comments, and it is a waste of your time to respond to childish sexual, or filthy comments.

I for one am interested in the detail you bring to your comments, and encourage more detail, regardless of whether the magpies preapproved it.

Yes there are Tesla defenders as well as detractors, as with any car company, but I’m not talking about the run-of-the-mill, ‘I like-I hate’ Tesla stuff we see on these forums, I’m speaking of genuine saboteurs, who have a vested interest in seeing Tesla fail.

When Musk naively handed over keys to the likes of Top Gear or John Broeder, he learned the hard way, that there are people or groups who will exaggerate, obfuscate, or even lie to place this company in a negative light. He understandably has to respond to those threats to the bottom line. I wouldn’t consider him a competent CEO if he didn’t.

Well Don, being that Elon Musk has successfully built 3 very large and successful companies (PayPal, Space X and Tesla).

With Tesla as the first new mass-production automotive OEM to become established in over 100 years in the USA, I’ll put your hatred of EM down to some mental problem you have about this extraordinarily successful and innovative entrepreneur.

DonC said:

“…there is no shortage of pitchfork-wielding Tesla fanboys spewing self righteous hatred against anyone with the temerity to suggest that there might be a problem in Teslaland.”

Wow, someone who only posts on InsideEVs to spread FUD about Tesla in a greedy attempt to benefit his short stock position, complaining about negative posts from others.

Not only is that being hypocrite, it also ignores the fact that Tesla fans are giving their honest opinions. You, FUDster, are not.

Other company don’t put up with BS?

It just seems to me that Tesla is “extra sensitive” to it than any other company.

Tesla loves the coverage and attention it gets from the media, but when it isn’t in its favor, it barks loudly and along with its cult base.

They have to, given the scat thrown at them, whether warranted or not – how many car companies have websites dedicated to monitoring their presumed, imminent downfall?

The tenuous position of Tesla Motors, in terms of image and being in a critical ramp-up phase, launching their 2nd vehicle (not 12th, or 22nd), where everything that is said and done can have grave consequences on their financial stability…yes, I would be testy, as well, in Musk’s position. They can’t afford to take much lying down.

I see that DonC is also having a flare-up of his TES (Tesla Envy Syndrome).

Don’t worry, there’s hope! You can actually cure your condition, not merely treat it, by selling off your “short” position in Tesla stock. It’s amazing how instantly this will alleviate your desire to make FUD posts on InsideEVs!

TES…I love it…can I borrow it?

Please do, thank you! And that goes for anyone else who wants to use the term and the concept.

There have been comments, and deservedly so, about the war of words between Tesla fanboys (like me) and anti-Tesla FUDsters; a war of words that gives a negative tone to these comment threads which may sometimes drive neutral readers away.

I hope to start a new trend by treating the subject humorously. Obviously the FUDsters aren’t gonna go away, since they’re posting here for a profit motive, not merely a pastime. Since they’re apparently going to be a permanent fixture, better to laugh at them than constantly expressing anger.

I’d be very happy if TES (Tesla Envy Syndrome) became a watchword in these discussion threads!

Right next to chronic TFS (Tesla Fanboy Syndrome). Symptoms are an ensive need to bring Tesla up in threads talking about the Bolt because deep down they are afraid the Bolt might actually be successful. Not that it would make their vaulted Tesla look bad but who says Syndrome have to make sense.

They are easy to spot. They must repeatedly make statements like. The Bolt can’t travel because Chevy didn’t decide not to build their own priority network. Sometimes they will dig down deep into the irrelevant topics such as EV1 and how Chevy killed it of.

When finding someone with this condition avoid at all cost they seem to lose all ability to do anything but spit out talking points.

Robert Middleswarth played amateur psychologist:

“…an ensive [sic] need to bring Tesla up in threads talking about the Bolt because deep down they are afraid the Bolt might actually be successful.”

Gosh yes, that must be it. We’re absolutely terrified that the Bolt might steal all of Tesla’s sales away from the Model ≡.

Nevermind that GM is only planning to make, what was it, 25k-30k Bolts in the first MY? And nevermind that GM has clearly signaled they have no intention of ramping up production to high numbers, as Tesla is moving to do. [/sarcasm]

Here’s your reality check, dude: I and other EV enthusiasts would love to see GM crank up production of the Bolt, as well as make it a more compelling BEV by, for example, adding DCFC capability.

Now, from your more than slightly biased posts, I would guess that you’re the sort who has made up his mind on the subject, and refuses to be confused by the facts. But please, do prove me wrong about that.

At Tesla, the first few thousand customers do this final testing as paying Beta teters 🙂

Perhaps because they believe that even as paying beta testers (as you call them) they are still getting a vastly superior vehicle that will be constantly improved over time via OTA updates.

Okay, but when they “OTA” those thousands of drivetrain replacements, just make sure you duck!

LOL! I got a great image out of this one, thanks!

Huh? I don’t get it. That joke went right over my head. 😀

You ducked!

They are poking deserved fun at Mr. Musk’s “We don’t do OLD Fashioned Recalls like the OTHER car companies, we do Over-The-Air software updates”.

That left him open to the plenty of hardware drive failures that cannot possibly be fixed by software alone.

The joke is, since Amazon was going to make deliveries by Quadrecopter, except the idea was dropped when it was discovered 747’s would be put in harm’s way, that since MUSK “ONLY” performs OTA updates, the way this would happen is huge quadrecopter delivered drive trains – flying low due to the weight.

“…since MUSK “ONLY” performs OTA updates, the way this would happen is huge quadrecopter delivered drive trains – flying low due to the weight.”

ROTFL! 😆

Thanks Bill, I hadn’t heard that one.

Ha! I have this image in my head of an Amazon drone dropping a drivetrain in my driveway…lookout below!

And I have an image of a notorious Tesla short and his sock puppet dropping a load of FUD on my head. Duck indeed.

Hey, the non-EV driving Mark Spiegel makes another appearance to spread his self-serving, anti-Tesla FUD as a well known shorter/gambler.

Does Autopilot and LED headlight also come over the air? Ha ha, no…First 400000 Model 3 customers will be denyed also to some key features the later customers will get. Like every automaker Tesla is considering what they can offer after 2-3 years on market that the first ones want to buy a new one.

It is my sincere hope that they won’t be “denyed also to some key features”. ?

Peter said:

“First 400000 Model 3 customers will be denyed also to some key features the later customers will get. Like every automaker Tesla is considering what they can offer after 2-3 years on market that the first ones want to buy a new one.”

That’s the first time I’ve seen anyone suggest that the inability to see the future in detail is a conspiracy theory to deprive current car buyers of future improvements and inventions. 🙄

Tell you what, Peter: You invent a working, dependable crystal ball that can reliably see into the future, and I’m sure Tesla will be happy to use it.

Is TES (Tesla Envy Syndrome) contagious? There certainly seems to be an outbreak of sufferers posting here!

tftf, I think you’ve been suffering from chronic TES longer than anyone else posting to InsideEVs. But even for you, there is a cure available, if you’ll sell off your “short” stock position.

I know it’s hard to believe after so many years of constant TES attacks, but give it a try!

Anyone know if Bolt rear leg room is any improvement on Volt?

Looks like it is from the walk arounds and walk thrus.

Yes. Here’s a video @ approx. 40 secs shows the rear layout:

Thanks for the link. That front seat looks close to all the way forward. I’m guessing Bolt will feature higher seating, than the coupe-like Volt/ELR. That reduces the need for leg room, at the expense of a higher bench (like i3). Tough call.

The closer 85kwh Tesla’s come to $50k, used, the less likely a new 30-50k anything else will get my attention.

Used 85’s are already 50k and under.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/2013-model-s-85-13-689-miles-metallic-blue.70501/

I spoke to the owner of that 85, and he said he would be willing to let it go for $50k even, despite the list price of $54k

Buy it. Those first VINs above 2XXXX are when parking sensors showed up and many improvements for the 2013 year were on board. That, and this car not even having 20k miles, makes it a steal.

What are you waiting for 🙂 ?

This guy is 6’5″ and says he has “room in every direction”.

(video of him sitting in the back. starts 27 sec in)

Traditional car sales reps dont like or understand any car that has an electric drive train. I almost had to shout down my local GM (OPEL) dealer to get him to sell me a VOL(AMPERA). When it was all said and done, it turned out they could service the car!!! I had to find another dealership to do it for me.

Shut down?

“Shout down” is an expression meaning you have to out-shout the other guy to get him to shut up and listen to what you’re trying to tell him.

Hardly surprising in a car salesmen, given that they are trained to “steer” you into buying whatever cars the dealership is currently trying to promote. Of course there are exceptions, but in general new car salesmen try to sell you what they’re told to sell, or what will best benefit the dealership, rather than what you actually want or need.

Traditional car sales reps dont like or understand any car that has an electric drive train. I almost had to shout down my local GM (OPEL) dealer to get him to sell me a VOLT(AMPERA). When all was said and done, it turned out they couldnt service the car!!! I had to find another dealership to do it for me.

GM better Fix that rear suspension QUICK.
The Auto Press destroyed the Honda Insight because of that kind of suspension.

I’m worried this one area will kill this $37,000+ car.

If designed and tuned properly the rear suspension will be fine. It also permits more cargo capacity.

My only problem (so far) with the Bolt is the platform choice. I think a bit larger platform should have been used to allow for more cargo space and fold-flat rear seats. Of course then you have more weight and need more batteries for the same range which pushes the cost beyond target.

If only they were putting this level of effort and resources into the CCS charging network as well.

GM didn’t invest in building out gas station infrastructure, so I’m not sure why they should be expected to invest in building out charging infrastructure… especially when one of the main selling points of an EV is cheap charging at home.

That kind of thinking is short-sighted.

They’d sell more Bolts if they helped expand CCS. At a minimum to myself and a few other Leaf owners I know in my area looking for their next EV. Despite 200 mile range, the Bolt remains a metro car around here. With a model 3, I can travel without needing a 2nd car.

ymmv

“Despite 200 mile range, the Bolt remains a metro car around here. With a model 3, I can travel without needing a 2nd car.”

If you pay for the SC option however much it will cost.

Also, you are assuming that CCS won’t get better by the time Model 3 is available to you which is at least 2 years out…

Klaus said:

“That kind of thinking is short-sighted.”

Speaking not as an EV advocate, but strictly from the viewpoint of a business trying to make a profit:

It’s not at all short-sighted for a legacy auto maker to not make any effort or spend any money on proliferating public EV chargers. Why in the world would they want to make EVs more competitive with their most profitable cars, which are all gasmobiles?

Despite my enthusiasm for EVs, I certainly don’t think that we should expect auto makers to build EV charging stations any more than the Ford Motor Co. built its own gas stations, back in the days of the Model T.

Kudos to Tesla for building the Supercharger network, but let us be realistic here and acknowledge that Tesla did that to promote sales of its cars. Since 100% of Tesla’s cars are PEVs, that certainly makes sense from a business standpoint.

For legacy auto makers, whose plug-in EV sales are perhaps 1% to, at most, 3% (for Nissan in Europe, if I recall correctly), a similar investment makes no business sense at all.

Setting the intentional conspiracy to suppress EV sales aside, a charging infrastructure is a loss leader for an automaker.

Furthermore, DCQC charging is not cost competitive with gas or with charging at home. So the target market for DCQC charging appears to be those who 1) have a BEV as their only vehicle and/or 2) do not drive an EV for the cost savings.

That market will not support a sustainable business model, and I’m not sure when it could.

electric-car-insider.com

I think the Bolt will be a huge success. Very nice interior and dash/instrumentation design. Large feel inside despite compact exterior dimensions.

I can imagine a whole lot of Leaf drivers trading up. There will be some amazing bargains on used Leafs soon.

Agreed. Lots of people coming off LEAF leases will be after the Bolt.

Nissan has to announce the LEAF 2.0 before the Bolt on on dealer lots, or they will lose customers in droves.

Yup. But will they trade up to Bolt, or to the second generation LEAF?

It seems Nissan has alienated a lot of its US LEAF customers, so perhaps they now will prefer hated GM to Nissan, who knows?? But for the rest of the world, Nissan should be able to compete with Opel Ampera-e, if they just get to market with the new LEAF in time.

Can’t wait to see it and hope it’ll resemble the IDS covertly car. ?

I really hope the Bolt does well in the US if only to open the minds of the average American to the BEV advantage and all the follow on impacts.
Having said that, I personally will be waiting for another Japanese product (even if made in the US/Canada) or the M3.

I bet the new BoltEV will be a reliable car. The Volt’s reliability is excellent.

Problem is it’s a 29,000$ car not a 38,000$ car and after you add DCFC it will push 40K$.

So then it will be a $32,500 car after the federal tax incentive.

A $3000 premium for a superior drivetrain over a comparable hybrid isn’t bad when you take into account fuel and maintenence cost over the vehicle’s life.

It will still be a few more years before the tax incentive runs out if they sell 20k-30k Bolts a year along with 20k Volts.

By then they can hopefully get price down close to that same premium up charge without the incentive.

DCFC on SparkEV is $750 option. I don’t see why it’d be much more for Bolt. Another interesting bit is that all the SparkEV for sale these days seem to come with DCFC, even the ones that are $49/mo lease. I have to wonder if DCFC will come standard on Bolt.

I agree – I think it would be rather stupid of GM to not include DCFC as standard. I kind of get it on a short-range EV if the manufacturer decided not to include it, but part of the point of the 200 mile car (to me) is to be able to do regional trips with perhaps one or two mid-day DCFC stops.

I also think that the Bolt will be able to charge at beyond 50kW, and the only reason GM has advertised it to imply 50kW so far is that is the typical power available at today’s DCFCs.

I would prefer GM charging $1750 for the Bolt EV DC fast charge option, instead of the $750 Spark EV price. IF they would then invest the $1000 in a dependable, nationwide, DC fast charging network.

Ideally DC fast charging would be standard equipment and the $1750 collected in the base MSRP, but it doesn’t look like electric Powertrain costs are low enough to support that yet.

GSP

DCFC was a $750 option on the Spark EV I can’t see it costing more the 1K to add that.

I’m trying to convince my granddaughter (and her mom) that Bolt is the right car for her first car.

She has a few opinions such as ‘I hate the way Kia Soul looks’. No clue what she ‘likes’ in a car except it needs iPhone connectivity. And it can’t be a huge pickup truck like her mom drives.

Get her to do a test drive. Sale complete.

A nearly $40k car for a first car? Must be nice.

Well if it lasts her 20 years, not a bad investment.

I think it’s wildly unrealistic to expect that any of these first-gen and early-second-gen BEVs will be on the road in 20 years.

To clarify my previous statement a bit: anyone who can afford to finance a $40,000 car today will not be driving the equivalent of Bronze Age BEV technology in 2036.

So while I concede that it may be possible that her hypothetical 2017 Bolt will still be on the road in 2036, even if so, it is virtually guaranteed that she wouldn’t be the one driving it.

I’ll be glad to durability test the Bolt for GM. It needs a DESERT HEAT test and our Phoenix area is the place to do it. In fact they used to have a GM Proving grounds right here in Mesa,AZ. If it can take our HEAT and trips to the Grand Canyon up steep long hills with cold at the Canyon it will be great anyplace in the World.

Looks like this coming weekend in Phoenix would be the perfect test.

The Bolt will sell in volumes directly proportional to the “Stealerships” efforts.

It looks to be a car that could really sell. GM should use any leverage they can to get the dealers to play ball.

Hopefully more effort than they displayed with the EV1, though making a greater effort would be easy.

Has anyone seen advertisements for the BOLT on tv?

The vehicle isn’t even out yet, waste of advertising dollars…

They’re probably going a new route, Lyft…In Chicago Lyft drivers can rent/lease an Equinox which includes insurance and maintenance for free if you perform 70 rides a month…In major cities expect a similar system with the Bolt EV…

It’s actually a fairly good strategy…Customer acquisition is like fishing, the Lyft strategy casts a very wide net to get people who wouldn’t normally think about an EV into one…Some may like the smooth quiet ride over their ICE vehicle…

Didn’t know Chevy and Lyft did that. I could see that really moving Bolts.

Tesla is pushing hard to get the Model 3 out the door fast.

I just hope that it doesn’t suffer a RUD. 😉

Geez….

GM is so dumb.

If GM is as smart as Tesla, it would have allowed journalist a ride in the Phase 1 Bolt so it could have reservations and then turn around selling the Phase 2 Bolts to existing GM employee and Volt/Spark EV owners and then gradually release the Bolt from West Coast to East Coast…

Why didn’t GM figure out a way to suck profits out of the early prototypes like Telsa? 🙂

What are the numbers of LG Chem batteries that can be supplied for the Bolt EV. If someone could figure the numbers it should show the production restraints and forecast max production numbers… I’m sure other EV producers have figured it out.

I doubt that either LG or GM is going to give any outsider a peek at their contract for battery cells, but a GM exec was quoted as saying he thought GM could ramp up production of the Bolt to 50k, apparently that meant in the first year of production. But let’s keep in mind that the Bolt isn’t merely limited by the number of cells LG Chem can supply, but also by the number of EV powertrains that LG Electronics can supply. GM has pretty clearly signaled that the Bolt is to be a limited production car by outsourcing the entire EV drivetrain. If GM plans to ramp up production in future years, I expect them to signal that by bringing a lot of the EV powertrain production in-house, or at least sourced from the more traditional auto parts suppliers that GM is already using. Making production of a car dependent on a single outside source means the auto maker can’t really control its volume of production. This is the same problem Tesla has had with the Model S, and that’s the most important reason why they’re building the Gigafactory. At the moment, BYD and Nissan are the only… Read more »

The article says:

“Captured fleets, the ultimate final test, put the cars in the hands of employees. The vehicles are taken home and driven daily in real life situations. The employees report all issues that they discover, before production starts. If there are any major concerns, sometimes production can be pushed back due to captured fleet discoveries.”

This is the sort of thing that mature auto makers can afford to do, and it certainly helps with the reliability issue.

Perhaps when Tesla Motors is a more mature company, it can start doing the same. Doing so would certainly help with Tesla’s reliability issues.

“This is the sort of thing that mature auto makers can afford to do, and it certainly helps with the reliability issue.”

That is something all automakers NEED to do to ensure quality and reliability. Even with that, you can still get crap quality sometimes at GM/Ford/FCA…

The point is that people are giving Tesla a lot of slack right now on quality and reliability because of the EV leadership position. Eventually people won’t cut Tesla any more slacks.

Model 3 needs to be good or it will ruin Tesla.

I would not call the captured test fleet cars the “ultimate final test.” They are the final test, but the “ultimate” tests are done on design validation cars, built a year or two earlier, on very tough durability tests. This takes such a toll on test driver’s bodies that many OEMs use robots to drive the cars. Components are also tested by themselves on cycle test rigs.

GSP

I like the Bolt much more than the Model 3, especially the center display and whole Interieur looks much better.

Ugh. This isn’t a story about Tesla. Enough of the endless whining about Tesla, no matter what the story is about. Sadly, this is what has destroyed green car websites over and over. Trolls who can only bash , no matter what the story is about, fill every story with their excrement, and destroy discussion. Mods try to stay out, because either they don’t care (the more clicks the better), or because they don’t have effective tools. Or they have a wrong-headed belief that they can have it all, and will be able to keep their solid, good commenters who contribute valuable content into the comments sections, while still allowing the trolls to clog the comments with non-topical bunk because they have an axe to grind. Sadly, what happens next is a few regulars will naturally try to take on the FUD and off-topic trash that the mods allow. It never ends well, with all intelligent commentary now being lost in a sea of off-topic excrement. Good commenters who actually contribute to the website with insightful comments eventually skip posting on stories full of off-topic FUD, and the BS to content ratio keeps going down. Until those people who actually… Read more »

Likewise, a story about the Bolt (as you said, a non-Tesla car) tends to bring the mirror image of your complaint out of the woodwork: the Tesla fan who feels compelled to point out that every other EV is pathetic compared to the not-yet-existing Model III, that the corrupt auto industry is in the pocket of Big Oil, and that anyone who says otherwise is shorting TSLA stock.

It is a feedback loop between the fanatical Tesla zealots and the cynical Tesla haters.

Nix, It really isn’t not caring, or the clicks (regulars really don’t do it). IEV is moderated 20 out of 24 hours a day…but the best we can do is keep the discussion free of language, excessive slander, off-topic conversations and spam. To assign a moderating threshold of comment validity is a huge task, and a slippery slope. First, there are ~1,000+ comments a day, so to even take 15 seconds on each comment to read, evaluate and dismiss/allow based on a set of criteria (and understanding of a comment nestle) would be a huge undertaking. Second, where ‘the line’ is for you, is totally different for someone else…so the result of that work would be accusations of favoritism, fanboyism, suppression, etc. There is no reward for sure. For example, I’m taking the time to respond to your statement (as I am on moderation duty atm), because you are a long standing, valued member of the discussion…and because we don’t get to talk about this subject much from our end. However, you can sometimes get a little animated if you get into it with some people…and your comments likely would spring the that same moderation filter you are looking for.… Read more »

Wow – thanks for all the hard work and consideration!

Jay,

You and your team have been doing a great job here. I must thank you for your efforts. I understand that it is a big job.

I also admit that even as regular sometimes we crossed the “line” with our comments during the heat of argument. I will try to do better and I hope all the regulars would do the same.

I think it is best if everyone will just stick with facts even if there are “FUD or Trolls” that posting stuff just to get reactions out of people.

By posting facts and stay calm, it will help potential readers to learn about what is real and what is not even if there are questionable intentions.

Again, thank you for the great job you have been doing.

I have definitely found this site to be one of the top EV news site on the internet.

Jay, thank you for that insight into just how much work it is to moderate these discussions.

I already knew that moderating an active forum was a thankless job, but I had no idea it was anywhere near that time-consuming.

Thank you so much for giving us a place to discuss and debate (and argue, and vent our spleens) on the subject of EVs!

Jay, Absolutely right.

Moderation can only be for language – not opinion.

Jay,

Thanks for the detailed response. First off, let me say that I do appreciate all the work your guys do. I even agree when you delete my own posts when I go over the line.

I guess I’m going to have to accept that success for any EV website will always inevitably attract an element of posters that will frustrate many of us enthusiasts.

I think you put it well when you said: “where ‘the line’ is for you, is totally different for someone else…so the result of that work would be accusations of favoritism, fanboyism, suppression, etc.”

That is where a nice “mute” button would work as the ultimate “vote them off the island” tool.

That way we can decide for ourselves what our tolerances are, and maybe cut down on our frustration which multiple regulars have expressed.

Thanks,
Nix

No problemo, Nix

As we were discussing elsewhere in this thread, the quasi-fix we were thinking about (and were in the process of implementing before our IT fellow who was working on it went MIA) was to install a “vote up/vote down” system in comments. So other readers could + or – the comment if they felt they wanted to.

With this system, when any comment received a pre-determined amount of negative votes (ie-10), then the comment would be collapsed – so one could only read it provided it was clicked on.

This system would allow for the community to self-policing itself to a degree, and what it wants to read. At some point I plan on being less lazy and getting the process started up again, lol

“Ugh. This isn’t a story about Tesla. Enough of the endless whining about Tesla, no matter what the story is about.”

Isn’t the opposite is also true where endless of GM/Volt/Bolt articles are filled with Tesla cult members bashing them while praising Tesla which is completely unrelated?

Tesla is brought up here on the Bolt article because people feel they are the only two cars that has “confirmed” with prototypes that will be somewhat affordable and have 200 miles.

So, it is often a direct comparison done between the two. I hope both succeeds and do well and I have my reservation on the Model 3. But often I find the bashing of Bolt is completely off topic or unnecessary. But that is often deem “acceptable” by Tesla “cheerleaders”…

Occasionally, I do agree that some topics are completely off the topic all together and they are annoying.

Jay I really appreciate both your site and your efforts here and I agree it is very difficult to moderate these kinds of threads.

IMHO, there has to be a weeding out of the non-EV driving Tesla shorters/gamblers who only come on here to spread FUD.

These people have absolutely nothing to contribute and are only posting to try and influence other people so that they the FUDsters can line their own pockets on shorts.

We have considered a once-a-month (or bi-monthly, w/e) voting off the island scenario for the most notorious poster…just to ‘thin-the-herd’ of whoever is the largest distraction.

We aren’t about shaming, so the vote would be closed, and open just to persons on the IEV staff, and anyone who had contributed at least one piece (article or op-ed) during that month. The “loser” would simply not be able to post anymore, and would be notified via email of the decision.

There is a danger here that the offending party may in fact not be a “non-EV driving Tesla shorter/gambler” or FUD spreader…but just someone deemed too consistent a strong-armer or an over-whelming presence/disturbance. Personally, I’m not really comfortable with being omnipotent in deciding who best comes and goes-so I would leave it up to the group as a whole.

Jay, you (or someone on the staff here) posted a while back about a plan to allow InsideEVs readers to vote comments up or down. That by itself would greatly alleviate the situation vis-a-vis Tesla short-sellers using this website for a megaphone.

Is that plan for voting still in the works, or has that been abandoned?

Good remembering,

We actually contracted that out of house to revamp the comment system, including a vote up/do, block, extra feature discussion section…and it was going pretty well. Then the 3rd party kind, for lack of a better word, vanished on us.

It still is in the plan, I just have to get energized enough (find the time) to basically start over from scratch…and I admit to having put that on the backburner the last 4-5 weeks.

@Pushmi-Pullyu Voting comments would indeed be an interesting feature I believe but on the other hand maybe the result of this would not be as clear cut as you seem to expect. Indeed there are very few sites dedicated to EV’s worldwide and you would probably be surprised by the size of the “silent” mass of readers that do not comment because of rather poor command of written English. I suspect many of us do appreciate however a balance in opinions in the comments section. So I believe that in most cases for a Chinese, a German, a Brazilian,a French or an Italian like me, your comments or tftf comments have same (often positive) value. Many of us silent mass have nothing against the opinion of a short-seller as long as this opinion brings something to the debate, and it often does as those are often smart people. Balance, equilibrium, this is what makes an EV site interesting to read for probably 100’s of thousand of “silent” foreign readers. Then of course an EV site can be transformed in an North American & Tesla only site, but that is to my opinion the very start of decadence, and we Italians… Read more »

Will there also be a hidden immunity idol? 😉

…only if we can get “Pretty Boy Probst” to sign on, (=

Jay, wouldn’t you need to implement some sort of login system to ban a poster? Or would it be an IP ban?

Somewhat surprisingly, only 11 persons have been banned over the years. We ban by IP, IP family and name.

As with everything, there are ways around such a ban – but because we do read and moderate every…single…comment. So there isn’t an efficient way to get around the system due to the (labor-intensive) human component – short of IP masking and also using a completely different ID, inflection and attitude in posting.

And if someone is going to go to that much trouble to be a good member of the community…well, hats off to them.

I thought electric cars were about freedom of speech? I guess gasoline is the only one that’s not hypocritical?

It is worth a try and certainly better then nothing.

Nix is absolutely right about other EV forums that have really crashed and burned because a half dozen or so posters with financial positions or just mentally ill were allowed to derail and otherwise make intelligent conversations impossible through their antics.

I would certainly support you and your staff in taking this action and I think many posters would start to moderate themselves once their were consequences to needlessly unproductive/inflammatory posts.

You mean we still have mentally ill people amongst us despite obamacare?

Hehe “Mentally Ill”

Ok, THAT explains it!

No thanks. Non union Chinese labor is the only way to make things affordable enough to make America great again.

Trump built his empire from scratch. Musk was born with a silver spoon in his mouth on third base.