Honda Clarity Fuel Cell Boasts EPA 366-Mile Range Rating

OCT 25 2016 BY MARK KANE 148

Honda announced that its hydrogen flagship, the Clarity Fuel Cell, was recently rated by EPA at 366 miles (589km) of range.

The Japanese manufacturer took the opportunity to stress that the 366 miles is the “best range rating of any electric vehicle without a combustion engine“, while a Honda VP on the announcement added, “the zero-emissions family road trip is no longer science fiction”.

…and yes, we cringed a bit ourselves to hear those statements.

Honda Clarity Fuel Cell

Honda Clarity Fuel Cell

The fuel economy of the new Clarity Fuel Cell stands at 68 mpge (or 109 km/l).

Sales of the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell are to begin later this year in both U.S. and Europe, but we expect limited deliveries.

In U.S. specifically, Honda’s program reminds us a lot of Toyota’s, as the company will begin with “retail leasing to customers through its expanded network of 12 approved fuel cell vehicle dealerships located in select California markets (six dealerships in Southern California, five in the Bay Area and one in Sacramento)”.

“The Honda Clarity Fuel Cell, has received the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) driving range rating of 366 miles (589km) and fuel economy rating of 68 miles per gallon (109km/l) of gasoline-equivalent combined1], giving it the best range rating of any electric vehicle without a combustion engine, including fuel cell and all-electric vehicles, in the United States.

The Clarity Fuel Cell is the first fuel cell car to house the entire drivetrain under the bonnet of the car. Honda has reduced the size of the fuel cell stack by 33 percent whilst increasing power density by 60 percent, compared to the Honda FCX Clarity. Thanks to the compact fuel cell stack and integrated powertrain, Honda’s Clarity Fuel Cell is able to offer a more spacious cabin with seating for five people.

In Europe, Honda will be introducing the Clarity Fuel Cell to a limited number of European markets through the HyFIVE program to promote the development, use and viability of a hydrogen refuelling infrastructure. Together with industry partners, Honda is looking to gather real world user experiences of fuel cell vehicles and the use of hydrogen refuelling stations. The first units of the Clarity Fuel Cell will be arriving in Europe before the end of the year.”

Honda Clarity Fuel Cell

Honda Clarity Fuel Cell

Steve Center, vice president of the Environmental Business Development Office at American Honda Motor Co., Inc. said:

“Not only does the Clarity Fuel Cell fit five passengers and refuel in three to five minutes, it offers customers a driving range on par with gasoline-powered cars. The Clarity leads the pack with a 366 mile driving range rating, and with a growing network of hydrogen stations and fast fueling time, the zero-emissions family road trip is no longer science fiction.”

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148 Comments on "Honda Clarity Fuel Cell Boasts EPA 366-Mile Range Rating"

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A withered branch on the tree of transportation.

The last Gasp of Methane.
BOOM.

The “hypothetical” road trip, because after 366 miles you are pretty much stranded.

In the Netherlands I live just 141km away from the closest hydrogen station. Not to worry it’s just a 2 hour drive if there isn’t a traffic jam at either Amsterdam or Rotterdam.

So just fueling up will cost me over 5 hours and 176 miles of range. Good job.

I’ll just plug in every night with my pitiful 60 miles range of my i-MiEV, it’s enough.

I recall reading elsewhere that FCX will only be available to people who live within 10 miles of H station. Then worst case, it’s “only” 20 miles trip to fuel up. But if it’s bad traffic where average speed is like 10 MPH on highway (like Los Angeles), that could take almost 2 hours.

Also, if one happen to move such that new home is much further than 10 miles, then what? They should’ve made it plug-in with decent battery range like 50 miles to be more usable.

Honda also offered a home fueling system.

They’ve been demoing various versions since 2003 (other manufacturers have also had similar demos), but it has never been commercialized. Probably too expensive and getting permits to install a hydrogen generating/pressurizing/storage/fueling device at home is probably a challenge.

And you lose all the speed advantages, such that a standard charging station makes a whole lot more sense.

It was much like home CNG filling, it took a while to fill up but did the job. The car tank was the only tank with a large amount of hydrogen.

No, they showed a prototype of a home fueling system that was the size of a car.

FCX was older generation. This one is FCV.

You don’t need to live within 10 miles, it is enough if your daily commute route is close to some station, this expands number of potential users a bit. 366 mile range means that you may need to refuel it maybe once 10 days only or so. I think it is not sold to kindergartners, and adults should know their local traffic conditions and what they are buying perfectly well. Maybe they can just pedal a bike if car speed is 10 mph every time.

Mercedes is releasing CLK fuel cell plugin next year if you insist. It is an option until H2 stations are few. But look at Prius vs Prius Prime for example – plugin version of the same car is more expensive before subsidies, heavier and looses 5th seat to compensate for weight. May be not worth to pay extra for it, depending on personal situation. I don’t know about this Clarity, but Mirai uses just small 1.6 kWh battery as in Camry Hybrid.

Let’s assume your argument once every 10 days; that’s 36 miles a day. For BEV, that’s 0 mile wasted to fuel up while living even 10 miles from H means 20 miles of driving to get H, and it could take hours in terrible traffic. You might say pick a quicker route, but there’s no way to avoid the traffic in LA. It might be quicker to ride the bicycle to get H, except you can’t carry H like you can with gasoline. If you happen to live further than 10 miles from H, that problem gets far worse. If you don’t live just around the corner from H station like with gas stations or it’s on your way during commute/shop, FCV makes no sense. And what happens if your situation changes so that H station is now much further and not along your route you travel? If it’s only 10 miles additional, that’s 40 miles trip through hell-hole traffic to get H. Unless you’re retired and definitely not going anywhere and happen to live near H station, FCV makes little sense. However, adding a largish battery would make it more practical, but as we both agree, that will add… Read more »

“If it’s only 10 miles additional, that’s 40 miles trip through hell-hole traffic to get H.”

If it is hell-hole, it just doesn’t work for you. I think nobody claims it will work for everybody right now. Certainly not. Still, there are around 2 dozens of stations opened or going to open in 2017 in Los Angeles area.
https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/stations.html
For example in worst case scenario, you live in Downey, there is or soon will open station in some 12 miles North of you, 12 miles South, 17 miles West, 23 miles South East or North East – basically in every direction. I don’t think anybody would just drive around Downey every day, otherwise why would you need a car? Any 10-20 mile trip to either direction from your home can be used as opportunity to refill. Not ideal, but still may work for early enthusiasts.
I don’t think it needs literally match number of gas stations. We have way more gas stations than needed. 1/10th of the number will be more than enough, possibly much less initially.

“I don’t think it needs literally match number of gas stations. We have way more gas stations than needed.”

Ummm… ummm… California gas stations service, on average, about 1100 cars a day. Even optimistically, H2 fueling stations service 24-36 cars per day.

Yeah, it’s certainly true that we wouldn’t need to match the number of gas stations, if people actually started buying fool cell cars in large numbers. We’d need far, far more H2 fueling stations… at $2-3 million per.

At current prices, that’s about $8333 per car just to build the fueling stations! Sure, if these were built out in large numbers, the price would come down somewhat due to economy of scale. But it’s foolish to think that the price would ever come down to the neighborhood of what it costs to build a gas (petrol) station. Those high pressure pumps, tanks, and special seals will always cost a lot more than the simple pumps and tanks used at gas stations, even if they figure out some method of stopping H2 from embrittling metals.

The closer you look at the case for “fool cell” cars, the worse it looks.

Bingo !

But, I don’t need to alter my route to charge my car when my current range of 60 miles is enough. I have a charger at work, and my wife has a charger at 100 meters from work. We also have a charger on the driveway.

So unless we take a larger route and need to pass a DCFC (that isn’t already directly on the highway, Yay Fastned) we don’t loose much, if any, time.

Honda Is really thinking Smart these days..

I’ll be interested when I can put hydrogen generating panels on my roof that will pay for themselves in under a decade and continue functioning for two decades more.

Till then, not interested in being tied to someone else’s pump.

Why is this concept so hard to understand?

In theory, making H at home is pretty easy. Stick + and – from solar panels to water and collect H above the electrode. Use a small compressor and H tank to collect H during the day. All of that can be mounted on the roof. If refrigerators are any indication, such system could last 20 years or more with only few consumables (ie, electrodes)

But the problem is cost. While BEV could charge only from solar panels at ~90% (or ~70% with with DC-AC-DC), H would be only about 30% (50% loss just for electrolysis) or even less given how small it would be. Throwing away half the energy (aka, money) for long range that you’d hardly ever use is very wasteful, and that’s not even considering the cost of consumables or initial cost of pump, tank, plumbing.

There is no such thing as a small 10,000 PSI compressor.

What physical limit would prevent small compressor? Given that gun barrels are rated around 55,000 PSI (ie, AR 15) to 65,000 PSI (many 30 caliber hunting rifles), making small 10,000 PSI compressor is matter of cost, not of Physics. Since home H generators would be making tiny amounts of H, pump with gun barrel size volume would be enough.

Now cost is a different story, and I just don’t see any way to make it cheap compared to wires down the side to charge the battery.

Honda has, off and on, been working a on home solar hydrogen station; see:

http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/SolarHydrogenStation

“small enough to fit in a typical household garage. … For the next-generation Solar Hydrogen Station, Honda developed a new high-differential pressure electrolyzer that combines electrolysis and compression functions in a single unit.”

By my calculations, a typically sized home solar installation would produce enough hydrogen to power a car for 12,000 miles a year.

By the looks of it, it’s more off than on.

Zing!

yes, since the suns shines roughly 10h a day. The other 14 h it is likely off duty producing hydrongen from solar.

SparkEV asked:

“What physical limit would prevent small compressor?”

High pressure pumps that can handle pressurized hydrogen are very expensive, and they are not small. You also need a storage tank.

“Given that gun barrels are rated around 55,000 PSI (ie, AR 15) to 65,000 PSI (many 30 caliber hunting rifles), making small 10,000 PSI compressor is matter of cost, not of Physics”

Physical limits certainly do apply here. Gun barrels are not designed to prevent gases from escaping. Gun barrels which get jammed so the expanding gasses can’t escape tend to explode.

Presumably you don’t want your compressor to explode. 😐 Also, presumably you don’t want your hydrogen to leak out at a rapid rate. That means special seals to reduce the leakage. Reduce, not stop; since we’re dealing with hydrogen under pressure, it’s impossible to completely stop the leakage.

But hey, the “good” news is that SimpleFuel is offering an all-in-one compressor, storage, and dispenser, so you can refuel your fool cell car at home! And they say it even has “…a smaller footprint than an economy car.”

No word on cost, or safety…

http://www.hydrogenprize.org/simplefuel-world-premiere-system-design-unveiling-at-act-expo-a-great-success/

More non-sensic FUD from Wall Street shill Pu-Pu. Better sell your TSLA shares and stop pumping this junk. It will get to penny stock where it belongs and you will loose all your money despite all the spamming efforts.

He presented a valid technical argument, that containing high pressure for more than the millisecond a gun barrel must is difficult. He presented an example of a home hydrogen facility. And your response is to say Tesla will go bankrupt without any data to back it up, as part of your own campaign to short TSLA. You’re at Trump levels of desperation now. Next you will claim criminal Negroes and illegal aliens from the slums are buying Tesla stock to oppress Real Americans.

I disagree with zzzz and PuPu, but calling someone Trump is uncalled for. No one deserves that kind of insult except Trump.

super390,

You may as well discuss physics on TV show with your Trump, as discuss it with Pu-pu at Kindergarten level. Pu-pu doesn’t have any wish for serious discussion in the first place, just retyping the same pro-Elon propaganda and FUD about anything remotely competitive. I would doubt he is able of serious discussion and understands the subject anyway.

@zzzzzzzzzz

I’ve got facts, science, physics, and economics to back up my arguments.

You’ve got wishful thinking, insults, and wild accusations.

I think it’s pretty clear who is presenting reality here… and who is not.

PuPu, sometimes, logic goes out the window with your argument.

I use gun barrel as an example of a pressure container vessel for pump that can handle over 6 times what H needs in small volume and repeated cycling, not saying you’ll make H pump with it. But in theory, you can make H pump with it with proper seals, and the pump itself would be small.

If you’re talking about exploding barrels, obviously you have no idea how guns work. 65,000 PSI will not explode the barrel (more specifically the chamber) where they are designed as such. Otherwise, we’d have barrels blowing up on each shot.

Clearly you don’t understand the difference between a metal being able to withstand a momentary high pressure, and being able to withstand that high pressure long-term. Gun barrels, firing chambers, and breach blocks only need to withstand the pressure momentarily. If that wasn’t the case, then it wouldn’t be so very important for safety to make sure the barrel is cleaned regularly. And Sparky, if you’re claiming that gun barrels which get a bullet jammed in them during firing do not explode, then it’s not me who doesn’t know much about guns… it’s you. Do they explode every time that happens? No. But it happens often enough to be a significant safety concern. And if that happened every time the gun fired, then that gun will explode, sooner or later. Again, presumably you don’t want your H2 pressurization/containment system to do that. The point is that you cannot cheaply build a high pressure system to pressurize, store, and dispense H2 into a FCEV. Nor can all that heavy equipment be fit into a small space. There’s no magic that will enable you to handwave away the laws of physics or thermodynamics. Such systems will always be expensive, they will always… Read more »

Tiny compressors compress tiny amounts of H2. You will need HUGE amounts of H2 to power a car.

Given that home H generation will be very inefficient (30%?), you won’t be making much H using solar. Then pump doesn’t need to be large volume. Rather, you’d store it in a tank slowly and fill up the car from the tank.

If tank volume and car volume are the same and tank is 10,000 PSI, empty car would be filled to 5000 PSI (assuming no energy in thawing the pipes). You can do the math to figure out what tank pressure / volume is needed for 10,000 PSI (hint, damn high!)

But it doesn’t matter whether it’s physically possible or not. Money is what matters the most, and that makes it impossible.

5 kg of hydrogen is still 5 kg. You still need the pressure and the volume.

5 kg is provided by the storage tank, not directly from home electrolysis. From electrolysis, you need pressure, but volume is made up over 6 to 12 hours when the solar panels are making H. If you assume grid is also used to make H, that 5 kg is amortized over 24 hours, which is adequate for small pump.

I’m too lazy to do the math, but you can figure it out that it’s a tiny volume pump.

No, it’s not a tiny pump; it’s a pump that has to be able to compress a large volume of gas down to a very tiny one, all the way up to 10,000 PSI pressure.

That takes a large, expensive, heavy pump.

But if you think you can do better than all the engineers who have worked on such systems for decades, then by all means do so, Sparky. Get back to us when you’ve filed the patent.

How about electrochemical compressors? Or high pressure electrolysis? You know, technology doesn’t stay in place, mechanical compressors are getting obsolete for this purpose.

Although I don’t get this idea to make everything in your own residence. Are you guys some survivalists growing all your own food and digging a bunker under your yard too, no matter the costs? Making your own electricity only pays off if the grid pays triple price for it by netmetering, and provides free backup in addition. Not exactly scaleable path of society development.

Anyway if it is your hobby and cost & time is not an issue, some people done it:
http://hydrogenhouseproject.org/photos.html

Conservation of energy would state that any form of compression will need energy whether electrical or chemical.

Making H at home is foolish endeavor IMO. But given the lack of H stations, that’s what would have to be to be more practical. Yeah, I know, more H stations are coming “any day”.

Frankly, I wouldn’t mind FCV if FCV kicks ass and H stations are as numerous as gas stations and cost about what I pay for SparkEV both to buy and “fuel up”. But it fails on all of them, and I don’t see that changing much any time soon when BEV are getting so much more breakthrough.

I don’t see how home H2 station can be practical for most people with todays’ tech. Sometime in more distant future, when netmetering will be phased out and solar will be way cheaper, maybe. So far if nobody has built public H2 station in your area, just forget it. Nobody would be selling H2 cars in your area without stations anyway, and with home station you would be restricted by car range, which defeats H2 car advantage over long range battery cars.

I see things differently. Soon the grid is going to be able to produce cheap, renewable electricity for much less than you can at home. The latest proposal in Nevada can produce electricity for roughly two cents per kwh.

Soon buying home solar panels will be a money losing proposition, if all you want to do with it is provide green power to your house. You could use your home solar to charge your car instead, but that would imply that your car is at home during peak solar, which is never true. You could buy storage, but that is going to be very expensive: why buy a 90 kwh home battery just to charge another 90 kwh auto battery?

As an alternative, you’ll be able to buy a home electrolyzer and store hundreds, if not thousands, of kilowatt hours of electricity at home, and fuel your car from that in less than three minutes. The benefit is increased emergency preparedness (try charging your car after an earthquake) and you don’t need to remember to charge your car every night.

Do you really think that the power company will only charge you 2 cents per kW? Out here the cheapest rate you can get is 20 cents per kW and yet the wholesale rate is a whopping 4 cents.

As more and more people go with home solar the amount required to keep the transmission lines up and working is going to cost more and more per kW so I don’t see it getting cheap any time soon.

The utilities are in it for a profit so they’ll find some way to charge you more than it would for you to produce at home.

Charging plans that restrain such self-generating users are well known and typical in industrial use.
1. You pay spot price on electricity market
2. In addition you pay grid delivery charge per kWh
3. In addition you pay demand charge per peak kW per month. Typically if you reach certain power at any 15 minutes, you are hooked paying for 100% of that power for whole 12 months. For example $42/kW in San Diego as I last heard.
It makes some half the bill, and people at factory make special schemes to avoid powering all electric motors at the same time when shift starts for this reason too.
Some utilities may still not have demand charges, or very low charges. It is going higher with proliferation intermittent solar/wind. So much “free” backup concept of rooftop solar. Nothing is free, expect monthly charges per max kW used to go up.

I am on a TOU-D rate. More like $56 but recomputed monthly so $6 in summer, $4 in winter.

This rate is pretty rare in the US but will of course increase. The more it happens, the better the control will be. I have timers on water heaters, a small element on the water heater etc etc. Solar works pretty well to balance this for a/c. We can be one step ahead of the utilities here to avoid peak demand.

Big peaks are dryers, ovens and hot water heaters. A/C can often be met with solar. Here I have electric heat (pump) but have NG as backup so no peak needed.

My typical peak is 4-5 which is mostly from the oven.

Four Electrics said:

“Soon the grid is going to be able to produce cheap, renewable electricity for much less than you can at home.”

I always have to laugh when “hydrogen economy” advocates first tell us that electricity will be incredibly cheap in the future, but then turn around and tell us that cars which run on electricity won’t be able to compete with “fool cell” cars.

Cheaper electricity will make “fool cell” cars even less competitive against PEVs (Plug-in EVs) than they already are.

No matter how many times Big Oil shills repeat their fallacies about the “hydrogen economy”, they are still fallacies.

Pu-pu,

Just get out of your fanboy echo chamber and check how much batteries cost for real. Maybe buy some Model S or X, at least get idea of price tag. Long term DOE target is $125/kWh for cells. Even if you reach $100/kWh at pack level within 10-15 years without going to Lithium-metal or other exotic technology, it would be whooping $10,000 cost of goods for automaker for 100 kWh battery, that can’t match half cost fuel cell system by range, especially in winter, is much heavier, and takes forever to recharge. Add 50% to get retail price, and you are at $15,000 for battery alone, while it is whole economy ICE car price. It makes no sense, other than local commuting when you don’t need to go over 100 miles and don’t need to recharge on road.

You’re trying to handwave away reality again.

The price of batteries is dropping every year. In fact, the price of batteries is dropping faster than just about any product in any industry except computer chips and other solid state electronics.

We are orders of magnitude away from achieving what is physically possible for batteries. In theory, altho probably not in practice, batteries could have the energy density of gasoline.

But the future of electric cars may not lie with batteries. A small nuclear-electric generator has already been demonstrated in the lab, one that needs only aluminum foil for radiation shielding; see link below.

Contrariwise, the high cost and low efficiency of using hydrogen as a fuel will never significantly improve, because you can’t change (or improve) the physical properties of a hydrogen molecule.

To claim otherwise is nothing but wishful thinking.

http://tinyurl.com/mswyby7

And you will be able to (magically) compress the hydrogen and transfer it to your car at 10,000 psi without electricity.
Hydrogen is DOA and Honda is wasting all its money on a dead horse.

See? Someone gets it.

+1

It is indeed hard to understood why you have some irrational fear of fuel stations that can be opened by anybody, but insist of being tied to single electric utility that is natural monopoly and it is unlikely to change any time soon until you invent some wonder battery that would allow you to go off grid at reasonable cost and store your summer solar energy over the winter.

It must be some religion, it has no rational explanation. I guess reversible PEM fuel cells or direct solar electrolysis is strictly forbidden in this religion, so I leave it.

He was talking about solar panels, not utilities.

But hey zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, how much are they paying you? Can I get paid too?

John M:
“He was talking about solar panels, not utilities.”

No panels on residential roof make sense without grid and grid provided incentives. They are 99% grid-tied with few exceptions.

“But hey zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, how much are they paying you? Can I get paid too?”

Yes, sure. Koch Brothers are conspiring with Illuminati to prevent Branch Elonians under St. Elon leadership from founding Mars settlement. They together conspired with little green people, who want to take Mars all for themselves. Get out of the house at night, and look at the sky for a while, they will certainly come and bring you cold hard cash for your assistance to the Dark Side in this evil conspiracy 😐

Thanks, I’ll try that tonight. ?

zzzzzzzzzz said:

“…until you invent some wonder battery that would allow you to go off grid at reasonable cost and store your summer solar energy over the winter.”

Do you really think your readers are so clueless that they won’t notice you’re trying to sidetrack the argument into the cost of batteries for home solar power systems?

Hydrogen fuel is too impractical, too difficult to handle, and will always be too expensive, to compete with using electricity to power cars. Period.

And no matter how expensive batteries are, you only have to buy them once every 15 years or so. The cost of hydrogen fuel is something you have to deal with every time you fill up… or you car manufacturer does, if he has guaranteed you free fuel for three years or whatever, so that you won’t be put off by the fact that non-subsidized, renewable H2 costs about three times the current price of gasoline to power your car an equivalent distance.

The current cost of home solar power systems, and how fast those costs will come down in the near future, is irrelevant to the reality that using hydrogen for fuel is utterly impractical, and always will be.

CARB, manipulated by the fossil liquids industry, still funding this.

Well John:
# 1 is the technology you describe doesn’t exist and isn’t likely to ever exist in a safe, reliable and economic fashion.

#2, its hard to understand because the Big Oil companies behind the fool cell charade and people like zzzzz aren’t interested in anything other then delaying compelling BEVs so that people will keep buying their polluting gas/diesel.

And Big Oil is certainly not interested in anything that lets people make their own fuel because that would again conflict with having a captive audience of customers they can fleece.

If you want complicated technology with half-assed performance that is expensive to buy and run, fuel cell vehicles are for you! I’d rather have an EV though, thanks.

“If you want complicated technology with half-assed performance that is expensive to buy and run, fuel cell vehicles are for you! I’d rather have an EV though, thanks.”

You should get out of Tesla fanboy echo chambers sometimes, as you are loosing touch with reality. There are no battery cars for sale that match this 366 mile EPA range, and this range doesn’t get reduced by heating needs in winter. The closest match offerings from Tesla are well over $1000/mo, when pilot production Mirai (Clarity pricing in the US isn’t announced yet) leases for $350/mo including fuel, maintenance and all options, that all is extra for Tesla cars. For this $1000+/mo you would get half-assed 1 hour charging times on road and no chance to catch up with Mirai when going across California from Los Angeles to Lake Tahoe and back, as shown by Edmunds.com. All these weird ideas of long range traveling on battery only are starting to look obsolete now, when car fuel cell cost mass production target is $40/kW and batteries may have hard time reaching $100/kWh pack cost any time soon.

No, it’s still junk. Batteries have a lot of developmental potential left, hydrogen is pretty much finished. Hydrogen cars exist for one single reason, because the oil industry wants to sell green-washed fossil-sourced hydrogen. It’s not going to help them.

If conspiracy theories is your only way to explain the world around you, you should be concerned about health, not cars.

zzzzzzzzzz said:

“You should get out of Tesla fanboy echo chambers…”

You’re the only one talking about Tesla Motors here. If Tesla disappeared tomorrow, that wouldn’t make using hydrogen for a fuel any less utterly impractical, nor improve its horrible energy inefficiency, nor reduce the non-competitive price by a shekel.

zzzzzzzzzz also said:

“Better sell your TSLA shares and stop pumping this junk. It will get to penny stock where it belongs…”

Thank you for, at long last, finally admitting what is really motivating your carpet-bombing comments on every single article related to fool cell cars which gets posted to InsideEVs.

I have no investment in Tesla Motors, nor does anyone need to, to admire the company for its accomplishments and its vision… both of which are very noticeably lacking in attempting to mass produce wholly impractical fool cell cars!

A reasonable thought to have.

“Honda Clarity Fuel Cell Boasts EPA 366-Mile Range Rating”
———–

As a plug-in owner, I read this headline as “Honda Boasts you must find a refueling station every 300 miles”

It’s a good time to mention the hydrogen refueling station finder app: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106586_hydrogen-fuel-station-finder-app-launched-by-air-liquide

I’ve been checking it out regularly. Some stations occasionally go offline for a day or so, which I believe corresponds to them running out of H2, so these stations are being used. By my calculations, the planned 47 H2 station set in California is sufficient to fuel about 20,000 cars. Of course, less than a third of them have been completed so far. See: http://cafcp.org/stationmap

I like to use this site for all different fuels.
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/locator/stations/

Just filter for what you want. (not very many Hydrogen stations.. 31 total)

Regarding the app you mentioned, here’s the link about it.

http://letscleartheair.com/

This is a mobile-optimized website that tell you the status of every California H2 station at a glance, updated every 15 minutes.

http://m.cafcp.org/

If we assume that:
There are 16 hours per day when refueling stations will be visited.
There will be 47 stations in total, each one with single plug.
It will take 15 minutes to pump Clarity*.
There will be 20000 cars like Clarity on the roads.

We get a grand total of 6,6 days to fill all those cars.

That’s with best assumptions possible. (We only excluded “night” hours, but most will want to refuel during rush hours going to or from work, which should leave more hours “under used”. We assume that all those stations will be always operational. We assume that they will always have those huge PSIs available. etc. etc.)

20000 seam to be stretch here, unless those stations have 3-4 stalks each. (Or better yet its just an average and stalks are clustered where most fuel-cell cars are driving).

20000 BEVs?

Some of them would be charged at home, some at work. There would be order of magnitude more of them, and with even bigger disparity in number of actual stalks.

Oh wait. That infrastructure already is here. 😉

FC cars can not go through rush ascend. Infrastructure will simply put potential buyers off, even if such infrastructure build out will be taking place.

Those stations take a considerable amount of time to recover their pressure after fueling a car.

Your info is woefully out of date. Those were the old H2 Research stations, which are all being upgraded to the new Retail stations or closed. Get with the times.

Thanks for doing the math, przemo_li. However, the case is even worse for the “fool cell” fanboys than you are saying. Keep in mind that they always claim the hydrogen will be renewable; that none of it will be “frackogen” sourced from natural gas. The California Fuel Cell Alliance claims that each H2 filling station can fill between 24 and 36 cars per day with “clean” hydrogen, generated on site. Let’s ignore the reality that many stations are closed much of the time, or limit customers to only 1/2 a tank; let us be generous to the claims of the “fool cell” fanboys, and pretend that those filling stations will actually do what the advertising is claiming. 47 stations at an average of 30 cars per day = 1410 cars. Assuming the average FCEV needs to be filled once every 7 days, that means those stations can (optimistically, not realistically) service a maximum of 9870 fool cell cars. (And realistically, servicing that many fool cell cars per week would mean a large percentage of the H2 would have to be frackogen… not renewable hydrogen at all.) And at that, as you point out, those H2 fueling stations won’t be able… Read more »

Pu-pu,

Are you so desperate that some pilot production fuel cell cars will destroy Saint Elon narrative and his Wall Street pumped financial pyramid will collapse? Just stop trolling and relax, it will collapse one way or another. Better sell now until it is too late.

I notice that you never concede you’ve lost an argument; you just try to change the subject.

Elon Musk did not invent the laws of physics, nor thermodynamics. The existence of Tesla Motors has no impact whatsoever on the reality that cars powered by compressed hydrogen are now, and forever will be, wholly impractical and non-competitive with either BEVs or gasmobiles.

Pu-Pu said:
“Let’s ignore the reality that many stations are closed much of the time, or limit customers to only 1/2 a tank”

That’s complete bullsh!t. The 22 new Retail hydrogen stations are very reliable, and if they do go offline they’re repaired usually by the next day. Today, all 22 of the new Retail H2 stations are up and running.

Your comment is based on the reliability of the old Research H2 stations, which are being upgraded or closed. Last year there were 16 old Research stations, and only 2 of the new Retail stations. Today there only 5 Research stations left, and 22 new Retail stations. By the end of Quarter 1, 2017 there will be only 1 Research station still in operation.

The rest of your post is also BS.

http://m.cafcp.org/

It would, of course, help if you were not citing one of the websites for the California Fuel Cell Partnership, when trying to refute my claims that much of what the CFCP claims is mere advertising propaganda… or, if you prefer, bullsh!t.

You are one of, thankfully, only two remaining people who keep carpet bombing every single article related to the “hydrogen economy” on InsideEVs. Apparently the other former fool cell fanboys have finally quit practicing wishful thinking.

It is increasingly obvious, sven, that the real motive for the posts from you and zzzzzzzzzz have nothing to do with whether or not fool cell cars will ever be practical. Your posts are motivated by your “short” interest in Tesla Motors and your Hard Right personal politics. Nothing more. Nothing at all to do with reality, or science, or technology, or economics; nothing to do with the practicality, or impracticality, or science, or physics, or economics, of trying to use pressurized hydrogen as a transportation fuel.

So you resort to personal attacks when you have no answer as to why all 22 Retail hydrogen stations were open and fully functional not only yesterday, but in fact most every day. It’s because you know your claim that “many stations are closed much of the time, or limit customers to only 1/2 a tank” is an outright lie, completely false, and nothing you but trying to spread FUD. It’s like you said in a comment above:

“I notice that you never concede you’ve lost an argument; you just try to change the subject.”
-Pushmi-Pullyu

If that ain’t the pot calling the kettle black, then I don’t know what is. 🙁

Good stuff !
It is just sad how much public money is being diverted on fool cell stations that could be used for L3 charging or multiple family dwelling charger retrofit subsidies or any other cost-effective EV infrastructure

There is only one battery station in the world that matches speed of these H2 stations or regular gas station.

It is the Tesla swap station in Harris Ranch, built just to get extra ZEV credits for the whole Tesla fleet, that requires you to call in advance to schedule your 5 minute swap done by couple of mechanics, and do exactly the same on your route back. How great!

When you are talking about refueling one car that it true. If you had even two FC cars at the same station your average time is going to be on par with two cars at a Tesla Super charger. Bump it up to three cars and now you are talking CCS/Chademo speeds. Add a forth car and now you might as well just come back later.

Refueling takes 3-5 min in practice.
You probably heard some FUD based on performance of some obsolete testing stations. These are upgraded now, they all have buffer tank that keeps pressurized hydrogen ready.

Newer stations have even better performance. E.g. CAR-200 can dispatch 100kg per 3 hours peak time and has just 10 sq. m. footprint.
http://h2logic.com/h2-logic-launches-next-generation-hydrogen-fueling-station-product/
H2-Logic production capacity is 300 refueling stations per year, sufficient for refueling 200,000 new fuel cell electric vehicles annually. This is one company only, there are few more.

But how many Hydrogen fueling stations fill up my car while i’m sleeping, or at work, or at a movie? Can I get a wireless H2 station?

To me, the owner experience is like comparing apples & oranges. Personally, I prefer not to be tied to a “station” and just refuel at home. If I do make a rare long trip, I will either use a DCFC, own a PHEV, or rent a gasser/carpool.

An analogy would be owning a cell phone that either ran on batteries, or on H2. You can plug in your battery cell phone at night, and use it most of the day, but once in a while you might run out of juice and have to charge is somewhere. Or you can have a hydrogen fuel cell phone, that will run 50% longer than your normal cell phone, but after 2 days, you have to drive to a hydrogen station to recharge it in 5 minutes.

I’d rather have a battery cell phone.

Not a FCEV fan but to continue on with the cell phone analogy, millions of folks can only charge their phone by either using an illegal long extension cord to the street which is sometimes there sometimes not or have no charge options at home and have to find a charger somewhere everyday.

Those folks will want a superquick charge location to visit once or twice a week.

In the future autonomous HFCVs will drive themselves to the H2 station at night while you sleep and fill up. If the H2 fuel station is far away, autonomous H2 fueling trucks will drive to your neighborhood at night to allow your autonomous HFCV to fuel. 😉

I heard about few startups that deliver gas home. They may deliver hydrogen too once there will be significant matter.

Anyway, if you are more than home user, you can always order your H2 deliveries from few industrial gas companies, just like any H2 station operator, or forklift operator, or any industrial facility.

This lack “charge at sleep” is minor inconvenience compared to lack of range and almost hour long charge time on road, or multi hour wait times at overcrowded California Bay Area Tesla superchargers. Taking extra care of your electrical installation pushed to the limit at maximum rated current at night without supervision isn’t the task every person would enjoy anyway. Especially those parking on streets or random parking lots in half of the world. Still, those who must have plug for whatever reason always have a choice of MB CLK 2017 plugin fuel cell car. There is no point to buy and carry super-expensive 1300 lb battery around when you use full capacity once a month only maybe, and are forced to long wait times to recharge it on road.

Sorry son, but none of the station in California are like that. The existing stations still have a long recharge time.

That is completely untrue.

It would be helpful if you could offer some first-person reports from actual FCEV drivers reporting an improvement in real-world refueling of their fool cell cars, instead of merely shoveling out pro-Big Oil propaganda copied from the websites of the California Fuel Cell Partnership.

Where are your current first-person reports from actual FCEV drivers reporting that all of the existing stations “still have a long recharge time” in real-world refueling, instead of merely shoveling out anti-hydrogen propaganda copied from the internet echo chamber?

Edmunds has a Mirai in their long term test fleet and have driven it 6,825 miles, yet NONE, of the Edmunds reviewers has ever complained about having to wait for the H2 pump to recharge so that they can start filling their car. When they do mention filling times, they invariably say that the time that the pump spends actually “filling the car” (pumping H2) is in the 5 minute range, at most.

Edmunds 2016 Mirai long term review – all articles:
http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/2016/long-term-road-test/

Please read the following Edmunds long-term review article: “2016 Toyota Mirai: Easy To Refuel.” In that article the Edmunds’ reviewer unequivocally states: “It takes about the same time as it does to fill a regular gas tank. After that, you’re back to having 300+ miles or range depending on how you drive.”

Here are two other Edmunds articles that reference the fast refueling time of the Mirai. From the first article: “The hydrogen fill up takes exactly 5 minutes and 14 seconds, timed from the moment I open the door and step out to the moment I sit down and close it again.” That means that the actual time the pump spent filling the car is less than 5 minutes, probably closer to 4 minutes. “This station requires me to watch an instructional video on the pump’s screen before it will issue me a code number that I must then input before I can operate the pump. This first-timer video requirement drags my refueling session out to 9 minutes 40 seconds.” The time the pump spent actually pumping hydrogen to fuel the car is shorter when you include getting in and out of the car and watching the video. http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-toyota-mirai-hydrogen-vs-electricity-road-trip-to-lake-tahoe.html From the second article: “This refueling stop takes eight minutes from power off to power on.” The time the pump spent actually filling the car was shorter. “Sacramento comes up swiftly, but the filling station forces me to watch the dreaded instructional video before refueling. Arrggh. Then some poor instructions result in… Read more »

Jelloslug,

How about checking how many minutes it actually takes in practice instead of repeating old tales? People have done road tests and have written articles about it:
http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-toyota-mirai-hydrogen-vs-electricity-road-trip-to-lake-tahoe.html

Tesla car lost hopelessly on the Edmunds road trip.

The article you cite in no way refutes what jelloslug said. It only reported the times it took to refuel the Mirai on that particular trip; about 5 minutes for the first stop, and about 10 minutes for the second. It says nothing about the re-pressurization recovery time the station needs between individual customers. The California Fuel Cell Partnership claims their newer stations can handle up to 36 cars per day. If those 36 cars are spaced out over 16 hours, that means the station would need 26.667 minutes between customers to re-pressurize. I breathlessly await your explanation of how this basic math is wrong. 😉 Of course, there’s a way that H2 fueling stations can handle more cars, faster: Dispense frackogen made from natural gas, rather than the renewable hydrogen you fool cell fanboys keep claiming is what will power future fool cell cars. * * * * * Note that the trip in the Edmunds.com report took place in Southern California, which is about the only place in the country where you could so easily drive a fool cell car for hundreds of miles. Try starting in the Kansas City area, where I live, and the trip diary… Read more »

A quick check of the new Retail stations on the CAFCP station reveals the daily fueling capacity of some of the stations, and it’s in more than 36 cars assuming a average fill of 4 kg (Mirai has a 5 kg capacity tank).

Open Retail stations:
Sacremento: 240 kg/day = 60 cars @ 4 kg per car
San Juan Capistrano: 240 kg/day = 60 cars @ 4 kg per car
Woodland Hills: 180 kg/day = 45 cars @ 4 kg per car
Fairfax-LA: 180 kg/day = 45 cars @ 4 kg per car
West LA: 180 kg/day = 45 cars @ 4 kg per car
Santa Monica: 180 kg/day = 45 cars @ 4 kg per car
Diamond Bar: 180 kg/day = 45 cars @ 4 kg per car

Retail stations opening by end of Quarter 2 2016:
Mountain View: 440 kg/day = 110 cars @ 4 kg per car
Lawndale: 180 kg/day = 45 cars @ 4 kg per car

So how long does it typically take to charge a PEV (Plug-in EV)? About 30 seconds to plug it in at night, and about the same to unplug it in the morning.

There isn’t a gas station in the world that can offer that convenience, because it takes much longer to drive to the station and back… never mind the time actually required to fill the tank!

If you want a gasmobile to match the speed and convenience of charging your car at home, you’d need a race car “pit stop” area! And the crew to go with it.

There are 22 station on line in California that can possibly refuel just over 500 cars a day.

You must have failed math in school.

jelloslug’s math, or rather the premises his math is based on, look reasonably close to me.

The California Fuel Cell Partnership (CFCP) claims newer stations can service about 36 cars per day; the older stations, 24. The average is 30. On average, some of those stations are offline at any time. Checking your own citation, sven, at that time 3 stations out of 22 were reported offline; that’s 13.36%.

If we assume an average of 30 cars per station per day — and I think that’s optimistic, since most of those are older stations and the average is likely closer to 24 than 36 — then that’s 30 x 22 = 660, -13.36% = ~572.

That’s a bit higher than the figure jelloslug gave, but then in reality, the number of cars those H2 fueling stations will be able to service is lower than the optimistic numbers the CFCP claims. If anything, I think the 500 cars per day that jelloslug cites might be a bit optimistic.

More bull$sh!t from Poo-poo. Are you just spreading FUD or are you dense? I think it’s both. 🙁 At 4:28 AM Kansas time, Poo-poo said: “Checking your own citation, sven, at that time 3 stations out of 22 were reported offline; that’s 13.36%.” At 2:28 AM California time, 2 of the stations were offline because they are not open 24 hours per day. If you click on the “I” for info next to the station names, you will see that the Woodland Hills station’s operating hours are 6 AM to 10 PM, and the Saratoga station’s operating hours are 6 AM to 9 PM. So only one station was offline @ 6 AM, that’s only 4.5%. That 36 car per day number is BS, and if you’re going to be counting the 6-7 older research stations to bring the average “per day number” down, then there are 28-29 stations at which to fill up, not 22! You can’t have it both ways. That would be disingenuous, but par for the course for you. Poo-poo said: “If we assume an average of 30 cars per station per day — and I think that’s optimistic, since most of those are older stations… Read more »

A fcv (fuel cell vehicle) can not plug in, similar to an old Prius hybrid. It is not an EV (Electric Vehicle), it is a hybrid that runs off h2 that is extracted from natural-gas (cng, methane, CH4), likely from fracked wells.

fcv is only good for automakers because it has the most CARB credits (they do not have to make many fcvs to still be able to sell gasoline (ice) cars.

fcvs are difficult to refuel (too few stations that are far away), each fill up costs a lot (h2 is expensive), the fcv is expensive, and its repairs or maintenance is not going to be cheap nor a quick turn around (too few qualified auto techs and parts). All the above when compared to an EV that plugs either at home or at public EVSE, and the driver has the ability to charge off renewable energy.

No, fcvs suck when compared to EVs. The consumer would be better off just buying a SUV ice (that can run off B100 biodiesel or E85 ethanol than dealing with all the hassles of a fcv). Repeating: fcvs are only good for automakers not consumers.

If you think hydrogen is not going renewable, think again. You have stations like this one creating 100% renewable hydrogen:

http://www.airqualitynews.com/2016/10/13/electric-vehicle-refuelling-station-opens-east-london/

Then you have multiple MW+ hydrogen to grid storage projects like these:

http://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1412122/industrial-scale-hydrogen-storage-trial

… which have the capability to store large amounts of renewable H2 very cheaply via salt caverns and the like:

http://www.pandct.com/media/shownews.asp?ID=47186

The macrotrend driving the move to hydrogen is the quickly decreasing cost of intermittent renewables. When intermittent renewable costs drop to negligible amounts, storage becomes the cost. Batteries are good for hourly storage but prohibitively expensive for daily, monthly, or yearly storage. With hydrogen, the marginal cost of additional storage is very low.

“bruce dp” said:

“A fcv (fuel cell vehicle) can not plug in, similar to an old Prius hybrid. It is not an EV (Electric Vehicle)”

The correct term is FCEV: Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle.

Let’s not pretend that fuel cell cars aren’t EVs, because they are. They are propelled by electric motors, just like all EVs. The electric motor doesn’t care where the electricity comes from.

Fool cell cars are EVs. They’re just not practical EVs.

How much would it cost to fill up this FCV?

No one really knows. At current prices, it is expensive but they have been leasing the cars with all fuel paid already. They claim the fuel price will come down with mass manufacture but who knows?

About twice what it costs for gasoline.

Honda didn’t announced yet, but both for Mirai and Tucson it is “free”, i.e. included in lease price.

At large losses to Toyota & Honda, so not really “free”. At least don’t expect that to be the case if they ever sell in real #’s.

DOE had made long studies on the cost and their idea is that Toyota is far from loosing money even at current low level production. But at always, Tesla fanboys know better just “because” :/

https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/15015_fuel_cell_system_cost_2015.pdf
“The Toyota Mirai is the world’s first serially produced fuel cell vehicle to be offered for sale to
the public and thus offers a unique opportunity for cost validation. The Mirai was released for
sale in 2015 with a retail price of $58,325 [10] which equates to approximately $512/kW for the
entire vehicle. This stands in contrast to the SA projected cost of $216/kW for the fuel cell power
system at 1,000 systems/year. However, this comparison is imperfect as the Mirai value is a price
rather than a cost and is for the entire vehicle rather than just the fuel cell power system.
Nonetheless, this imperfect comparison is of some value in demonstrating that the cost
projections are not inconsistent with the only serially produced fuel cell vehicle to date.
Additional cost validation is planned for future years.”

WARNING: This post may contain traces of sarcasm. Avoid reading if you are allergic to humor.

“…the Clarity Fuel Cell, was recently rated by EPA at 366 miles (589km) of range.”

How about my steam engine car? I can refuel it anywhere I can buy heating oil… and that’s not restricted to just a few West Coast locations, and even fewer in the Bos-Wash area of the East Coast. And of course the water it needs for the steam engine is universally available.

My steam car is obviously a lot more practical than this fool cell car! Everybody should buy one!

Yeah, but does one third of that fuel oil come from renewable sources? I think not!

(They mostly don’t use electrolyzed water for the hydrogen, but there’s not enough methane from waste to move all of our cars.)

Okay, I just converted my imaginary steam car from using an oil-fired boiler to a methane-fired one. (It’s amazing how easy that was! 🙂 )

Since methane (natural gas) can be created synthetically, arguably that should be very much better than using H2. The very high compression of hydrogen fuel isn’t required, and using methane for a fuel involves far, far less loss of energy between generating the fuel and getting it into the car.

An article on synthetic “natural” gas (there’s an oxymoron for you!) from electricity:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140106094557.htm

I just converted my steam car to use hydrogen gas that is combusted to generate the heat for the steam boiler. Much more efficient and clean than using methane or oil.

And you can make this hydrogen with clean electrolysis so my version only uses clean steam and clean hydrogen derived using electrolysis of water using clean renewables.

Much better than an EV because my H-Steamer can be fueled up in minutes and has a range of 400 miles*.

*400 mile range made possible by the H-Steamer’s advanced 10 hp steam engine which gives it a top speed of 35 mph.

“philip d” said:

“I just converted my steam car to use hydrogen gas that is combusted to generate the heat for the steam boiler. Much more efficient and clean than using methane or oil.

Nope, sorry. If we use non-imaginary science and tech, then the process of generating, pressurizing, storing, and dispensing the hydrogen is much, much less energy efficient — and thus more polluting and more expensive — than using methane.

Now, you’re right to say that burning methane isn’t as clean as burning hydrogen. But then, if the methane is generated using electric power, that’s at least CO2-neutral. Now, it does generate actual pollution (C02 isn’t pollution, despite what some non-scientists claim), but it’s certainly much less polluting than burning gasoline or diesel, and of course far more practical and affordable than using compressed hydrogen ever can be.

I think you missed that I was joking. I was using the same logic that HFCV advocates use to claim that using renewables to generate hydrogen, even though much less efficient than using the same electricity in a BEV, is better than an EV because you can fill it up fast even if you waste a lot of that clean energy along the way.

And when you arrive at your destination, there will be no way to fuel it up. (Unless you have just been driving around in circles.)

I do genuinely wonder if a FC + a decent sized battery will be a better option than just a pure BEV or FC. You would drive purely on the battery when needed a majority of the time but then for longer distances the FC could pick up the slack. Not to mention you wouldn’t need as big of a FC as it wouldn’t have peak needs, it could just recharge the battery at a set rate. If not for cars than possibly for buses or trucks or something. Although that said they need to drop the price of Hydrogen by a lot to make it economically viable.

Although if/when they get charging up to a rate that it’s acceptable for the masses and have the infrastructure in place such a vehicle may not be needed at all.

You will still need an entirely new infrastructure.

But that wouldn’t make fool cell cars any more practical. You still need to fill it up eventually. If you can’t, then functionally you just have a BEV.

And if hybrid battery/fuel-cell EVs were ever to become popular, that would make the case for building out H2 fueling stations even worse than they would with straight FCEVs. With the cars only occasionally needing to be fueled, demand for H2 fueling stations would be even less, which means the stations would be even more rare.

Over time, that would make hybrid battery/fuel-cell EVs even less practical than straight fool cell cars… and that’s saying quite a bit!

Mercedes is about to build such a car. The idea itself is quite clever. Like you mentioned, you save a lot on the fuel cell, but you’d still need an infrastructure and looking on the current hydrogen fueling plans, a fuel cell range extender won’t really make much sense for quite a while.

If they would only focus on a long distance hydrogen infrastructure and build every FCV as a plug in with a sufficient range, it could work. At least better than whats planned today.

Agreed on the infrastructure. It is like all these pure EV guys forgot that there didn’t used to be an EV charging infrastructure either! I truly wonder if it may be a better idea for larger vehicles than your small cars though. People keep throwing around 100kW batteries. Who knows what they will cost but even at $100 per kW that adds a lot to the car. How far is a Suburbanesque vehicle really gonna go even on 100kW. So what you put in a 200kW battery? How much is that gonna cost and weigh!?!? I don’t know if a FC or having it as an ICE PHEV would make more sense but putting in something that can say go 100 miles on the battery alone but then having a way to go farther will be nice. Maybe it will be an ICE range extender, maybe a FC range extender, or maybe they can charge so fast it won’t matter and it can purely be on battery power alone. I don’t know but the powers that be thought the ICE was the only way to go a long time ago and now the pure BEV crowd thinks they aren’t basically… Read more »

Yawn. So much infrastructure for so little benefit.

Not an EV.

Fool-Cell.

FCV=FOX Conservative Vehicle

I still see no advantage over a Chevy Volt. Volt drivers rarely use gasoline, so it’s those CO2 emissions versus the CO2 emissions of how hydrogen is ACTUALLY produced from CH4 to make it cheap enough to sell.

Definitely a huge disadvantage over the Volt. The Volt is the most practical PHEV on the market today, and has been for the past five years.

“Fool cell” cars will never be practical, and therefore hybrid electric/fuel cell cars never will be, either.

I really don’t see why this needs to be discussed endlessly. The science and the economics are pretty basic and well established. There isn’t any doubt or ambiguity here, despite what the fool cell fanboys keep claiming. What they’re saying is just wishful thinking; it has no basis in reality.

My last two gasoline-powered cars had a real-world range of only 220 or so miles. One was a 1990 Cadillac Sedan deVille, the current one is a 2008 Ford Focus.

On paper the latter has a 12-gallon tank, but in reality it takes so long for the fuel lines to drain that you have to wait several minutes to get that 12th gallon in. There’s a problem you never hear discussed in arguments about recharging times.

Yet Americans bought these cars in large numbers. Maybe the number of people who are happy with 220 miles range if they can plug in at home is as larger or larger than those who insist on 366 miles and a government-funded hydrogen station. But the former are not threatening the sacred rights of the latter or the existence of the giant corporations trying to get Big Government and Big Oil to pay for fuel-cell infrastructure before going out of beta.

LMFAO, serial Tesla-hater and Big Oil shill zzzzzz says “… Mirai (Clarity pricing in the US isn’t announced yet) leases for $350/mo including fuel, maintenance and all options, that all is extra for Tesla cars.”

What zzzzz forgets to realize is that the the Toyota Mirage and ALL H2 stations and the H2 they rarely dispense are so heavily subsidized that the true costs of this boondoggle probably exceeds the subsidies on a per unit of power then even oil and nuclear have traditionally received in huge amounts of subsidies.

You can’t blame zzzzzz for trying to fight for fossil fuel pollution if that is where his bread is buttered.

How is being a shill for Big Oil, promoting absurdly impractical fool cell cars, as well as being a serial Tesla Motors basher, fighting against fossil fuel? Nope, promoting fool cell cars is actually promoting use of fossil fuel, because most commercial hydrogen fuel is made from natural gas. That’s why companies like Shell and Chevron are full members of the California Fuel Cell Partnership.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Fuel_Cell_Partnership#Full_members

Read my post again, I’m agreeing with you, zzzzzzz is promoting fossil fuels.

Most grid electricity is made from fossil fuels. Is promoting EV cars actually promoting the use of fossil fuel, because most grid electricity is made from coal and natural gas? You have to look at the well-to-wheels CO2 emissions, and both EVs and HFCVs emit significantly less CO2 well-to-wheels than a conventional ICE. Note that for the past two years 46% of the H2 sold in California for fueling HFCVs came from renewable sources (bio-gas and renewable electricity) that have very low well-to-wheels carbon emissions, and California requires that a minimum 33% renewable H2 be used. The minimum percentage increases after a certain amount of H2 for fueling HFCVs is sold in the state.

https://greet.es.anl.gov/public/images/greet_sample_ghg_emissions.png

https://greet.es.anl.gov/results

Boondoggle is the perfect word to describe FCV.

As I understand from your post, Tesla fanboys are suddenly all for alliance with Koch brothers to fight all subsidies, including electric cars? I see, when you are firm believer, you can do anything for your faith.

If yes, you may consider starting from Tesla cash furnace, it would be long bankrupt or not even started without all kinds subsidies. Solar City would be going belly up next quarter even with all the subsidies burned in it, so you may omit it.

The Japanese manufacturer took the opportunity to stress that the 366 miles is the “best range rating of any electric vehicle without a combustion engine“

And the 2nd worst MPGe rating (Mirai for the win) of any electric vehicle without a combustion engine.

That would be the 3rd worst MPGe rating. You forgot about the Hyundai Tuscon Fuel Cell, which at 59 MPGe has a lower rating than the Mirai’s 66 MPGe rating. Clarity would be 4th worst if you also count recent BEVs that are no longer sold but still on the road, since the BYD E6 with its paltry 63 MPGe rating is worse than the Clarity, Mirai, and Tuscon FC .

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/tucsonfuelcell/index.aspx

http://fueleconomy.gov/m/m.do?action=vehicles&id=34859

I stand corrected. But I think you get the gist of what I was saying.

Yes, we got it that you are trying to compare apples and oranges. Electricity is form of energy that already includes cost of conversion from thermal energy burning fossil fuel to electricity, so you may have good mpge at the last step of energy chain. Who cares about upstream NOx or sulfur emissions from burning, much higher than ICE cars, you don’t see it in front of you and don’t need to care :/
Hydrogen production doesn’t include much dirty low efficiency burning even when it is produced by steam reforming from natural gas at 70-90+% efficiency
https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2014/05/12/635390/10081221/en/GEI-Global-Energy-Corp-Completes-GEI-X5-Core-Technology-Testing-for-Fuel-Cell-Electric-Power-Generation.html

Well zzzz, 2012 called and it wants their “EVs are Coal Powered Cars” propaganda back!

More disinformation from from Big Oil shill zzzz lol.

The fact of the matter is that dirty coal and other carbon polluting forms of electricity generation are already being displaced by renewable energy.

As renewables like wind and solar get cheaper and cheaper this trend will accelerate and probably within 20 years the RE transition will be 90 plus percent complete because of global warming.

So, EVs which are already cleaner then fossil fuel cars, much less your H2 fantasy will only become even cleaner and sustainable.

Psst, you should tell your Big Oil connections to please invest massively into H2 production and stations please as a “good investment”!

zzzzzzzzzz said:

“Hydrogen production doesn’t include much dirty low efficiency burning even when it is produced by steam reforming from natural gas at 70-90+% efficiency…”

Seriously, you’re actually trying to claim that using hydrogen is more energy efficient than using electricity stored in batteries, in PEVs (Plug-in EVs)?

Wow. Just wow!

Reality check: Using hydrogen fuel means wasting between ~66% and ~80% of the energy that’s used in the many steps of generating, compressing, transporting, storing, and dispensing the fuel into a fool cell car. If you use H2 from electrolysis, rather than reforming natural gas, then it’s closer to the 80% loss figure.

It’s really sad when shills start believing their own B.S.

I was able to look at a Clarity (as well as three Mirais and an F-cell; I drove the latter) at the National Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Day event in the Bay Area. Like the range, but unfortunately the trunk space is severely compromised by a hump which covers what I assume is an H2 tank. It takes up about half the height and depth of the front half of the trunk, full width IIRR.

Neither it or the Mirai’s rear seat fold down, either. Presumably the car has about 5.4 kg of H2 to give it the EPA range rating, and I imagine they did that so they could claim bragging rights over Toyota, but I’d much prefer less range and less compromised trunk space. Actually, I want a hatchback/wagon/CUV body, like the F-Cell or the (absent) Tucson.

Since Clarity can seat 5 and has more than than Mirai, it may be priced much higher, lets say US $99,000.

And now the mainstream media will call this a TESLA KILLER or perhaps ELECTRIC VEHICLE KILLER.

So how many of this will sell?

Since auto makers are perfectly aware that fool cells are utterly impractical, and they make them only for the purpose of getting ZEV carbon credits and/or for the political/ propaganda value of claiming it’s possible to have a ZEV car without it being a BEV, then the relevant question is how much money the auto makers are willing to throw away on such cars for political and publicity purposes.

Make no mistake: The executives and the engineers at Honda, Toyota, and other fool cell car makers know perfectly well that the arguments given here by the (thankfully few) fool cell fanboys are B.S., even though their own advertising contains some of that same B.S. They see fool cell fanboys as — to use the political term — “useful idiots”.

Given the fact that Tesla is selling so many electric vehicles at affordable price and that Chevy Bolt has 238 mile range and an affordable 37.5 K price tag, I hope that Honda will price the Clarity affordably.

That’s what people are expecting.

Lol!

Cant help but notice how zzzzz and his trusted sidekick sven carpet-bombs all fool cell threads with his ad nauseum Big Oil propaganda.

Of course they also carpet bomb most Tesla threads with their serial anti-Tesla BS.

Here’s what works for me, I already have a 7kw, self installed solar pv system that I can expand if necessary.

When I get my Model 3 I will charge it up fully on the weekend and that will allow me to drive it M-F on my self generated electrons.

Next step will be to install a Tesla Powerwall V2 (find out more on this Friday) or better to cover night loads easily.

In other words, Tesla will allow anyone with a sunny roof to basically self generate ALL
their house energy requirements AND auto fuel.

So no to the greedy, planet wrecking Big Oil/Koch Heads (and their minions like zzzz) and yes to a sustainable future for me and you and our descendants and the planet and all its creatures.

BINGO…you are the fossil fuel industries worst nightmare. And I want to follow your footsteps LOL

Real long therm idea would be to have a 40kWh battery for normal driving and a fuel cell range extender with a range of 600+km that is used for extended trips, vavation and such. But this system makes only sense if gas is around 4$/liter or 12$/gallon, since otherwise the classic PHEV will win reagarding cost.

It’s an alternative if oil will run dry, nothing else.

To me this Hydrogen Highway stuff is proceeding at a super-slow rate, even slower than the price of ev batteries is decreasing.

At first these stations were only going to cost $1,000,000 a piece, now supposedly, they cost $1,800,000 each.

I frankly don’t see how these things can exist without massive state subsidy.

California may be willing to shell out gargantuan sums of money to force this to work, but I don’t see huge numbers of other states wanting to invest such big bucks.

The intrinsic advantage pure electrics or PHEV’s have, is that they both have very economical refueling.

The BEV may be refueled from the existing 120 volt outlet nearby to where the car is parked. Same with a PHEV, and, for long trips, there is also the corner gas station.

Electricity and Gasoline are both quite inexpensive.

I don’t see how H2 can compete with this, ever.