France Preparing €10,000 In Aid To Switch From Diesel To Electric

AUG 12 2014 BY MARK KANE 35

Perhaps This Guy Will Pack Away His Soon to be Collectible Fluence Z.E.

Maybe even Renault Fluence Z.E. would sell good with such aid?

Marie-Ségolène Royal, Minister for Ecology, Sustainable Development and Energy in France, proposed at the end of July the final version of a bill, which seems to be generous for EVs.

The idea is to encourage the purchase of electric vehicles by exchanging a €10,000 bonus in lieu of the current environmental bonus of €6,300.

We feel this may make the market will explode. However, to get €10,000, the new EV must replace a diesel model.

It seems that France would like to fight with Norway to be the EV leader of the world.  However, we are not sure if France will be able to bear such incentives over the longer term. Anyways, we are awaiting to see if this bill will pass or not.

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35 Comments on "France Preparing €10,000 In Aid To Switch From Diesel To Electric"

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Le projet de loi est bien passé.

Mais c’est pour le retrait d’un véhicule diesel à la casse que la prime serait accorder. Mais ce n’est pas le cumule de 6200 + 10000€ mais uniquement 10000€ sous certaine condition de revenu. Autant dire pas beaucoup de personnes seraient concerné par cette mesure.

Seule un réseau de bornes de recharge pourrait faire décoller le VE en France

If I have that right it is:

The law is already passed.
Its a scrappage deal though and you don’t get that on top of the other 6,200 Euros just 10,000 and only under certain conditions.
That’s because a lot of people have doubts about this measure.

It a network of chargers that’s the hold up for electric vehicles in France.

I believe that “Autant dire pas beaucoup de personnes seraient concerné par cette mesure.”

it’s not “That’s because a lot of people have doubts about this measure.”

but, I believe : In other words (suffice to say) that not too many people should be concerned about (by) this measure.

I mightbe wrong

You are right. And Sachot also added that the personnal income is taking into account.

By the way, it’s the first time I see “Marie-Ségolène Royal”. Everybody in France just call her “Ségolène Royal”. For the little story : she is the ex-wife of the France’s president.

My French is getting worse than my English!
Quel dommage!

That would be great if it passed. Meanwhile in Germany we don’t get a cent in credits for buying an EV.

Company cars get a tax credit in Germany. To be honest I am not in favour of subsidies for people that are wealthy enough to buy a new car.
I’d rather have the money invested in infrastructure, especially in quick chargers.

It’s pretty useless to have an infrastructure if there are no one that will use it.

And any subsidies for the new cars will eventually people who only can afford used cars too. The price for them will be cheaper and they will get a cleaner car.

You could go another way with a bonus/malus system like Norway has or France had(?) with the new high emission cars being taxed high which pays for incentives for the new low emission cars. Making wealthy polluters sponsor wealthy 😉 green buyers. 😛

But the real point is that Germany is doing way too little to get EV’s on the roads.

Thankfully Germany and German manufacturers are forced by the EU to reduce emissions so that they have to at least produce EV’s and reduce the emissions for the local fleet of cars.

France has a bonus/malus system, this is where the money for the EV incentives come from.

However it’s only based on NEDC test cycle CO2 emissions, and the balance point is set to be neutral for most small diesel city cars sold in France. They did it this way in order to not penalise the bulk of French car manufacturers market share (the small city cars with diesel engines made by Renault and the Peugeot-Citroen group), which the French government spend decades to protect.

Is that how you feel about all subsidies, or just EV subsidies?

For example in the US, you get a lot of tax credits, “subsidies”, for buying a new home. Should people wealthy enough to buy a new home get subsidies? What about people wealthy enough to have children?

It’s always possible to have an income based subsidy. At least when it comes to things like buying a house or for kids.
It’s different when it’s a subsidy created to steer people in a certain direction toward a goal, like from polluting cars to less or non-polluting cars. Then everyone should get the benefit.

So steering someone towards buying a home isn’t steering?

The presumption is that everybody needs to live somewhere and nearly everyone wants to own that place.

With things like EVs, you cannot presume that everyone, or even a majority of people, want an EV, even if in the aggregate it is beneficial for the community.

I find it hypocritical that you can tell me what I can’t presume, but you can make presumptions.

Buying a home is like buying anything else. It’s not special. It’s not a “right” to own a home. If its something you “want” go for it. After the housing collapse many people do not want to be anywhere near investing in a home. 33% of Americans rent. More & more people are moving to cities. 50% of NYC rents.

I’m saying that there is no need to steer people into buying houses, therefor there is no need to give that subsidy to rich people who will buy a house if they want to or not anyway.

Unlike EV’s which might not be the first choice for people but can be with the right push.

I wouldn’t compare EV subsidies or scrapping schemes with state aids for buying homes or for children.
Owning a home instead of renting serves as retirement provision. In Germany there is the generations agreement meaning that the current generation of working people pays the pension of the current retired people. An incentive for having children makes sense to keep this agreement alive for future generations.
Cars are not needed for the social system and do not serve as retirement provision except those presented at Pebble Beach maybe.

These aren’t state aids for a “problem”, they are tax credits and deductions for choices. Population decline isn’t a problem Germany faces (or the planet).

Your graph is not very telling. Try this one instead:
You will see, that there are more and more retired people and less in an age where they work.

Most developed societies have an aging population due to advances in medicine (See Japan). However, people are also working later in life.
Also, in my personal opinion, I don’t think it’s a good idea to rely on the youth to pay for the old. Could they? Maybe. Rely on it? No. So instead of investing in a house who’s value isn’t guaranteed to increase, and relying on that for retirement, that may not be the best choice. There are more secure investments. Buying a house is simply an investment choice. Personally, I don’t see how this is a benefit to society and needs a subsidy to steer people that way. I always find it comical though how people who claim to be against *all* subsidies, but take advantage of everyone they can. And when it’s pointed out to them, they then defend *those* subsidies. And then there are the behind-the-scenes subsidies given to corporations/industries that many take advantage without even knowing.

Population declining problem is something Japan has been struggling with for quite some time and that the EU has been facing more and more. It’s a real problem and it’s already here.

Unlike the US which has a “problem” (or rather a great help) with immigrants in the right age and will for work and to support an aging population and decreased child births.

It’s kind of funny that you are actually exporting that problem to Mexico which also has a low birth rate.

Don’t forget that in the US there are limits on these tax subsidies for the wealthy. You can deduct mortgage interest on upto $1,000,000 of mortgage debt, and upto $100,000 of home equity loans. Interest on debt in excess of these amounts is nondeductible. Likewise, you’re allowed to take mortgage interest deductions on your primary home and a second home. No mortgage interest deduction is allowed on a third, forth, fifth, etc. homes.


Kdawg, this was in reply to your comment above (before 20 comments separated my reply from your comment):

kdawg: “Is that how you feel about all subsidies, or just EV subsidies? For example in the US, you get a lot of tax credits, “subsidies”, for buying a new home. Should people wealthy enough to buy a new home get subsidies?”

What I was to trying to say is that EV subsidies for the wealthy should be limited/phased-out just as they are for the wealthy when they buy an expensive new home. I guess I should have just said that, but it was early in the morning and I wasn’t fully awake. 😀

Perhaps they (German auto manufacturers and the German economy) are far too invested in diesel technology.

As much as I like this idea and how there’s a solution to getting rid of the green-washed diesels that clatter and foul up France’s city strets, but the incentives are a bit much. It’s too similar to how Japan is going to offer more than $30,000 of incentives for Toyota’s Mirai.

With this amount of incentive, it would make it easy to not take EVs seriously in France amoung the average perspective.

The French governemt really must be seeing some big savings being made if this pulls off.

The billions spent on importing oil will give a lot of tax money when spent inside France instead.
It would be interesting to see a study on how much they could give in incentives and still make a total profit for the state and country.

In Norway, our national Transportation Economy Insitue has performed such a study, based on the incentives Norway currently give to advance usage of electric cars
– No sales tax (25% on other cars)
– No weigt/performance/pollution taxes (typically ~10.000USD on a Golf class car)
– Access to bus lanes
– Free toll road access (typically $100-200 per month for other car owners)

TØI concludes that Norway as a notion does not lose money on these incentives (or so marginally little that it is of no consequence), ref:
-Article in Norwegian – but use google translate. I did not find the TØI presentation, only this article that refers to a presentation of it.

Are there Model S taxis in Norway? If so, I will make an effort to ride in one.

This is also a measure to help french carmakers sell electric cars, the french seem to be very loyal to their car manufacturers.

Something the german goverment is not doing for some reason. Probably because they don’t want to start another expansive endeavor like the “energiewende” with it’s solar subsidies.

This time they let someone else bring down the price and come in cheap later on.

The Germans are primarily responsible for pushing diesel on Europe, to now evidently disastrous results in London and Paris air quality.
I think the strong diesel lobby has not gone away and EVs have not been welcome by German car makers. I think only now BMW has realized the potential of the sector, with the success of the i3. VW may or may not follow since their offerings are so expensive.
I would guess BMW will jump ahead and will accelerate development of the i5 and other “i” variants.

The French government also havily participated in this push for Diesel by significantly lowering taxes on Diesel cars, both for businesses, and then quickly for consumers too.

Businesses almost only buy diesel cars to save taxes, then they flood the used cars market with cheap diesel cars.
Consumers resisted a little, especially at the beginning because early diesel cars engines were uncomfortable to use, made clunky tractor noise, had terrible reliabily issues, and were very dirty.
But the money savings over time progressively convinced consumers that diesels were worth it.

To this day, in France, diesel is still cheaper at the pump, although it’s actually more expensive to produce.

I think when told that the peasants could not afford electric cars Marie-Ségolène responded:
“Let them drive electric Trucks.”

It looks like a panting puppy

Like this car.