First Honda Clarity Fuel Cell Cars Delivered, Next Up An All-Electric and PHEV Clarity

11 months ago by Mark Kane 106

Honda delivered its 2017 Clarity Fuel Cells on December 19, 2016 on the Torrance, Calif., campus of American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

Honda delivered its 2017 Clarity Fuel Cells on December 19, 2016 on the Torrance, Calif., campus of American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

Honda has begun deliveries of its Clarity Fuel Cell Sedan in California, where 12 dealers have signed on for the job.

Interestingly, the first six cars were delivered to former Clarity FCX users from Southern California, so there will be no surprises as to what the fuel cell can (or can’t do).

Honda delivered its first six 2017 Clarity Fuel Cells to Jon Spallino, Terry Tamminen, Karen Thorp, Jackie Keller, Jack Cusick and Jim Salomon (left to right) on December 19, 2016 on the Torrance, Calif., campus of American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

Honda delivered its first six 2017 Clarity Fuel Cells to Jon Spallino, Terry Tamminen, Karen Thorp, Jackie Keller, Jack Cusick and Jim Salomon (left to right) on December 19, 2016 on the Torrance, Calif., campus of American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

Hopefully soon we will get the first reviews and insight of how the latest Japanese hydrogen fuel cells copes with California’s fuel cell infrastructure, as well as its on-road performance.

With 366 miles of EPA range and seating for five, it’s certainly a major competitor to the Toyota Mirai; especially considering the very attractive $369/month lease deal on the car.

Honda has also noted that an all-electric offering of the Clarity platform (undisclosed range) will be offered for the US in 2017.

That BEV will be followed by a 40+ mile plug-in hybrid Clarity by year’s end. Better still, the Clarity PHEV will be offered in all 50 states.

Honda Clarity Fuel Cell offer (more)

  • $369 a month lease price, with $2,499 down at lease signing. Over 36 months (and 20,000 annual mileage) the cost will be $15,783 (average of $438) not including tax, registration or official fees.
  • up to $15,000 of free hydrogen at participating hydrogen stations during first three years, and 24/7 roadside assistance as well as up to 21 days of an Avis Luxury Rental in California. Eligibility for California “White Sticker” single occupant HOV access
  • 366 miles of EPA range
Honda Clarity Fuel Cell Boasts EPA 366-Mile Range Rating, Best of Any Zero-Emission Vehicle

Honda Clarity Fuel Cell Boasts EPA 366-Mile Range Rating, Best of Any Zero-Emission Vehicle

Press blast:

“Retail leasing of the Clarity Fuel Cell is now available through Honda’s expanded network of 12 approved dealerships located in select California markets, including six dealerships in Southern California, five in the Bay Area, and one in Sacramento. Honda will further develop its fuel cell vehicle dealer network as the network of public hydrogen fueling stations expands across the state.

The Clarity Fuel Cell is available for the competitive introductory lease price of $369 a month for 36 months with $2,868 due at signing2. The lease terms include an attractive mileage allowance of 20,000 miles per year, up to $15,000 of hydrogen fuel, up to 21 days of an Avis Luxury Rental in California, 24/7 roadside assistance, and eligibility for California “White Sticker” single occupant HOV access.

The first deliveries of the Clarity Fuel Cell were celebrated on the Torrance, Calif., campus of American Honda Motor Co, Inc., where six Clarity Fuel Cell customers participated in a ceremonial delivery event after leasing their car from one of Honda’s six fuel cell vehicle dealerships in Southern California. The participating dealerships are Scott Robinson Honda in Torrance, Culver City Honda, Keyes Woodland Hills Honda, Honda of Pasadena, Norm Reeves Honda in Cerritos, and Norm Reeves Honda in Irvine.

Honda Clarity Fuel Cell

Honda Clarity Fuel Cell

The first six customers of the 2017 Clarity Fuel Cell are previous owners of Honda’s second-generation fuel cell vehicle, the Clarity FCX. These customers have grown with the development and deployment of Honda’s fuel cell vehicles, and have provided feedback of their real-world use of the FCX to influence today’s customer experience of the Clarity Fuel Cell. The customers are:

  • Jon Spallino, private securities investor and world’s first fuel cell vehicle individual customer with the 2005 FCX, whose new Clarity Fuel Cell becomes his third Honda fuel cell vehicle
  • Jack Cusick, assistant principal of Newport Harbor High School
  • Jackie Keller, founder of NutriFit, LLC™ healthy meal services
  • Jim Salomon, president at Questar Construction
  • Karen Thorp, deputy district attorney for the County of Los Angeles
  • Terry Tamminen, CEO of the Leonardo DiCaprio Foundation”
First Honda Clarity Fuel Cell Vehicle Have Also Arrived in Europe

First Honda Clarity Fuel Cell Vehicle Have Also Arrived in Europe

Steve Center, vice president of the Environmental Business Development Office at American Honda Motor Co., Inc. said:

“The Honda Clarity Fuel Cell has arrived as the next big leap forward in electric drive mobility, with next-generation style, fun-to-drive performance and customer comfort. In the year ahead, we will continue the rollout of the new Clarity series of electrified vehicles, to include battery-electric and plug-in hybrid models.”

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106 responses to "First Honda Clarity Fuel Cell Cars Delivered, Next Up An All-Electric and PHEV Clarity"

  1. Nicholas says:

    Seems like a free trial considering the 15k in fuel and luxury rental cars.

    1. Dr ValueSeeker says:

      Amazing car,amazing deal adn amazing range! 366 miles EPA is massive for a ZEV.
      With a BEV like P100D, that’s almost impossible to achieve. The P100D is only 303 miles but is so heavy that its front steering and suspensions keep failing in dangerous ways. Even fanboys are getting scared and pissed.

      1. Chris O says:

        Dr. NonsenseSeeker;)

      2. floydboy says:

        Question: Are you a PART(Post And Run Troll) or a SAFAART(Stick Around For An Ass Reamin’ Troll).

        I really hope you stick around!

        1. ffbj says:

          He drops in from thyme to thyme to cast his pearls of wisdom on the ground, but they are usually quickly smashed, as they are merely beads of fragile glass, by heavy trodding feet of passersby.

        2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          “I really hope you stick around!”

          Why? You can see Tesla bashing FUD posts from “Dr. ValueSeeker” pretty much on a weekly, perhaps sometimes daily, basis over on Seeking Alpha, if you want to wade through that sewer.

          The less of that here, the better.

        3. zzzzzzzzzz says:

          Troll here is you, moron-boy, as this particular article is about FC, not Tesla & Musk worshiping column. You may get more of your cheerleader echo chamber experience at Teslarati or Electrec.

      3. Bill Howland says:

        Dr. VS I thought Tesla had fixed the front wheel ‘fall-off’ problem.

        Do you have any reasonably hard numbers as to the percentage of owners who are having specifically what kinds of trouble, and at what mileage the problems seem to be happening? Thanks in advance.

      4. Bill Howland says:

        At the Canadian car club I belong to ( a very friendly group, relatively ), several Tesla S owners were stating their 12 volt batteries had to be replaced every year, to which I asked “what do you think the problem is”, and one person who lived ‘off the grid’ (who therefore was the most familiar with batteries – or at least I wasn’t going to question him – I have a fair amount of Telco experience with batteries myself, but he was on a roll so I just let him go).

        “There has to be a charging problem.”
        I asked, “The battery isn’t float charged?”
        He said, “I don’t think so, in any event there is no good reason an AGM battery shouldn’t last a decade and these last 1/10th of that”.

        SO any info you have on that subject also would be appreciated.

        1. Dr ValueSeeker says:

          Bill,
          No stats, but some repeated problems. See this video of a P100D owner below. It just seems physically challenging to produce really long range pure EVs till we have some real breakthrough in cell chemistry for packing much higher energy density.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM5z0dW60KE&feature=youtu.be

          1. Bill Howland says:

            Dr. VS:

            That was a very illuminating video, in the sense of the oft-mentioned repeated problems.

            Early adopters such as myself tolerated these thing and did not invoke “Lemon Laws” which most states have, even though we were legally entitled to do so.

            The general public will not be as so compliant or forgiving, and huge numbers of “Lemon Law” cases for Tesla just can’t be beneficial to their ultimate profitability.

          2. Bill Howland says:

            With this Apollo, I have a small disagreement with you in the sense that I don’t see how just releasing a larger battery can cause seemingly totally unrelated steering problems which is a life threatening issue and normally would DEMAND a recall from the NHTSA.

            IF this video is the Norm, then something is way slipshod at Tesla.

            I thought the “S” was now their most ‘reliable’ vehicle? I’m a bit dumbfounded since I didn’t think this kind of thing was happening to the “S” ANYWHERE.

        2. unlucky says:

          The problem was real and endemic. People I know who have (or had) early Teslas were getting new 12V batteries 2 to 3 times a year.

          The problem was reportedly that the car would simply refuse to charge the 12V battery. Tesla would replace the battery but still not fix the base problem so it would trash another battery and another.

          Reportedly the problem was the software controlling the charging of the 12V from the traction pack. This was eventually fixed and the problem was fixed. But it’s not completely clear it was just software since Tesla is not forthcoming about what fixes they perform under warranty (there is no legal reason they must be either). And this was all done under warranty.

          Is this not the case? Are early Tesla Ses still eating 12V batteries? My sources say it is fixed.

          1. Bill Howland says:

            I’m told by my Canadian “S” owner friends that it is an ongoing problem – and the cars are quite far from being 2012 ‘prototypes’.

      5. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        Seriously, a serial anti-Tesla short-selling FUDster is still trying to flog the “Tesla is hiding a suspension problem” smear campaign?

        Gosh, I’d have thought y’all would have found some less obviously untrue Big Lie to flog, after that was refuted so very thoroughly.

        What a loser!

  2. Reddy says:

    Hey, I’ll take one! $15k lease and $15k free fuel for 3 years. What a deal. With that deal they’ll sell millions. Oh wait, you must be one of the hand selected few and live less than 100 mi from a Hydrogen station. Oops that leaves me and the other 350 million Americans out. I guess I’ll just keep driving my Leaf and charging at home while I sleep.

    1. jimijonjack says:

      Maybe, If they come up with a BEV that looks decent & has Good Range ., they may be onto something worthwhile to talk about. HONDA is loosing Loyal Customers By the Minute. It looks like HONDA IS GOING DOWN & WILL BE 0UT BEFORE YOU KNOW IT…Unless they start using their Heads & Drastic Measures are taken soon.. These Foolish Games & Stupid car Introduction NONSENSE they are Playing Will Cost them Big Time!

      1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

        Honda is not giving a .. about few fanatics and not going to please them. They are fine playing in 99% of the auto market and will think about the rest when technology will be more ready for practical purposes. Maybe even next year for that matter. Anyway they will not be doing that to please few fanboys, constantly unhappy that the world doesn’t go their way.

  3. SparkEV says:

    How many miles is $15K worth of H fuel? Considering 20K miles per year lease, if $15K is for 60K miles, it’d be $0.25/mi. Assuming about 60 mi/kg, it works out to $15/kg.

    Then after 60K miles, one would have to pay $15/kg, or equivalent to about $7.5/gal gas compared to driving 30 MPG gas car. Yikes!

    1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

      “Then after 60K miles, one would have to pay $15/kg”
      Some elementary grade math: $15,000 is 1000 kg assuming it stays at $15/kg (e.g. Nikola promises $3.5/kg). Anyway, at 1000 kg at rated 68 mpge (or miles per kg) is 68,000 miles for 3 years. Unless you work as taxi driver, I don’t see how you can end up paying much extra, it is over lease allowance of 20,000 miles/year.

      1. SparkEV says:

        Yeah, I underestimated as 60 MPGe, but 68 MPGe doesn’t make much difference. I also underestimated 30 MPG for gas car when Ioniq could get almost twice that.

        If you believe everything carmakers tell you, I’d be driving Tesla 3 by now. Fact is, based on current pricing, it’s roughly $15/kg. Unless you have complete faith in company that doesn’t even make mass market FCEV, fuel price for FC is going to be “HUGE” (say it like Dump) after lease is over.

        1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

          There is more than enough fuel included in lease. After lease will be over, you will not be the car driver and will not be paying for that fuel, so what exactly your point? You may speculate all day long how much fuel will cost 3 years from now, but it would be just that, wild speculation and it doesn’t change today’s offer from Honda (or Toyota, or Hyundai for that matter).

          It depends on just too many factors to draw the answer on the back of envelope. As feedstock cost is some $2/kg or less, I find hard to believe that it can’t be reduced for some reason to much less than $15 eventually, when/if proper dispensing scale will be reached.

          1. SparkEV says:

            So if you’re not the driver after the lease is over, who is? Are all FCEV destined to be crushed after 3 years since no one will pay exorbitant fuel prices?

            I can guesstimate what H will cost 3 years later: roughly what it costs now. You can’t scale when FCEV is selling few hundred. And even then, no one will buy them after lease is over since fuel will be so expensive. There’s simply no way to scale to bring the price down, and you need low price to scale. Chicken and egg problem is insurmountable.

    2. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sven says:

      SparkEV,

      Hydrogen prices are currently as low as $9.54 per kg in California. Edmunds did a 6-month long-term review of the Mirai and had this to say about the cost of H2 if you had to pay for it:

      “Say you left your fuel card on the dresser or say the three-year grace period ran out. We found hydrogen prices vary considerably from station to station and paid anywhere from $9.54 to $16.63 per kg during our test. Our average cost per mile was 24 cents.”

      https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/2016/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html

      1. Bill Howland says:

        SO, Sven, you basically agree the current H2 price is $7.50 Gasoline gallon equivalent then. (assuming the car with a typical gasoline engine would get 30 mpg).

        Unlike some I’m not worried about the flamability of hydrogen, but 10,000 psi is a bit of a concern (as I’ve seen the damage a 5,000 psi SCUBA tank rupture can do – in one case the thing took off like a rocket, and blew threw the basement foundation and through the front yard grass), and then mundane problems like joint leaks after corrosion (internal and extenal) has set in.

        The very expensive, high power consumption, complicated and large real estate dispenseries also give me pause in that I don’t see any practical way the retail cost can be lowered all that much from what it is now.

        The first thing that makes one doubt the viability of these fuel cell cars, is that, they’ve been working on these things for at LEAST as long as EV’s, yet the lithium – ion battery has made several BEV and PHEV models practical and 100,000’s of them have been sold.

        Meanwhile here, we just get 5 were sold here, 6 were sold here, but only with 3 years free fuel under controlled conditions.

        I’m glad I don’t have any stock in these companies. Doesn’t sound like much mass-market appeal, unlike EV products.

        1. bogdan says:

          Being more expensive than gasoline makes it a no go. Eco-friendly or not, the car hasn’t best performane, fueling stations are scarce if not unavailable, the technology is not fit for mass production.
          I guess the fuel price is the best proove for the inefficiency of FC propulsion.

          1. SparkEV says:

            Not quite. H usage is not as widespread as electricity usage or even gasoline usage. With scale, they could bring the cost down, though whether than can bring it down by factor of 3 to achieve similar cost as Prius and Ioniq is questionable.

            But the problem is how to achieve scale when gas and EV are so much cheaper? Sure, manufacturers could throw in 3 years of free fuel when new, but when happens after 3 years? You can’t sell it since cost is so high. Large number of people won’t pay double or triple gasoline to fuel up. I just don’t see a way out of this chicken-and-egg cost problem for H.

            1. Dr ValueSeeker says:

              Charging on the go is not cheap. EVGO charges $9.95 for 30 mins of DC fast charge. How much is that per kwh, and per mile? The cost isis close to H2 costs.
              https://www.evgo.com/charging-locations

              1. SparkEV says:

                If you get eVgo membership, it’s $0.10/min, or $3 for 30 minutes. Since SparkEV would get about 80 miles per 20 minutes, $6 would get 240 miles, or $0.025/mi. That’s 1/10 what you pay for H with FCEV.

                Now if you go for the most expensive DCFC option, it’s 240 miles for $21 (three 20 minute sessions) or $0.0875/mi. That’s still about 1/3 what you’d pay for H with FCEV.

                To suggest DCFC is anywhere remotely as expensive as H is ridiculous. Do the math.

        2. zzzzzzzzzz says:

          “I don’t see any practical way the retail cost can be lowered all that much from what it is now.”

          People do extensive cost studies (available for study for free if you are interested), automakers from startups to major ones do business plan based on this, and you just proclaim that you don’t see practical way without giving any numbers or reference to studies to support your point. And we should take it seriously?

          1. Bill Howland says:

            Yeah, you should. I haven’t had to change any of my statements yet. Its ok if I do in the future have to change them, since I’m obviously here making an opinionated observation. Its not my main area of expertise.

            A response should have included illuminating information, but where you usually provide some of it, you did nothing here.

      2. SparkEV says:

        If they averaged $0.24/mi, that’s not far off from $0.25/mi that I estimated. Granted, that’s based on today’s prices, but I don’t see the price going down much any time soon, and I think it’ll still be similar 3 years later.

        Basically, they have to bring the price down by factor of 2.5 to be competitive against 30 MPG gas car, or factor of 3 to be competitive against other eco gas cars like Prius and Ioniq. I just don’t see that happening in 3 years unless as of yet unknown breakthrough occur.

        1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

          It doesn’t need to happen in just 3 years. Nobody plans or expects for FC cars to outprice everything else and take 99% of the auto sales in 2020.

          Besides, it is quite US-centric view. US is not center of the world and not even biggest automarket now.

          Gas prices at pump including taxes are already $5-7 per US gallon in Europe. As most of the gasoline & diesel taxes most likely wouldn’t apply to H2 fuel, it would be about the same to fuel regular 30 mpg gas car or 68 mpg Clarity.
          Similar situation is in Japan, gas with taxes is some $4.5/gal at pump.

          https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/gas-prices/#20163:United-States:USD:g

          1. SparkEV says:

            I use 3 years since that’s the term of the lease. If it doesn’t get “free fuel” after lease, who’s going to buy them? No one in US.

            If you’re talking about outside US, they could give subsidy for H for short term, but for how long? Even if FCEV cost the same to fuel as gasoline, why would people opt for it when H stations are so few and inconvenient? At least BEV offers convenience of home charging and cheaper and better performance in some instances. FCEV is just underpowered, less convenient, and more expensive than gasoline. One has to be out of his mind to choose it over gasoline.

            With such undesirable product, there’s no way H will scale large enough to reduce cost.

    3. SparkEV says:

      Didn’t see the bit about taxi driver. If you’re going to be leasing a new FCEV forever, sure, you won’t pay “HUGE” H price, assuming carmakers continue to foot the tab.

      But what happens after lease is over? With such high H price, people won’t buy it after lease. They can’t sell it as used; who’d buy it when it cost over triple similar gas car like Prius? Even if they extend free fuel (free charging SUCKS!), they’ll eventually hit this wall. Then it’s crush time.

      You can’t build an infrastructure on few hard-core rich people. H is doomed if that’s the model they’re going after, which seems to be at the moment.

      1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

        You are assuming they are trying to push and take market by storm now. It isn’t the plan. The plan is to start selling in bigger but still insignificant numbers like 30,000-50,000/year around 2019-2020 only. It takes time and nobody promises some revolution next year. Just check how long Prius was selling in insignificant numbers before it reached the scale of millions.

        1. SparkEV says:

          How are they going to sell 30-50K FCEV per year? That’s more than Volt sales after almost 7 years of selling. That’s not wishful thinking, that’s just blind faith in magic.

          As far as I see, FCEV are under powered, less convenient, hugely more expensive if you buy it (ie, after $15K) than gasoline cars and BEV. Lease is “ok” deal, but buying is just ridiculous.

          You bring up 2019, and that’s interesting year. That’s when the leases will be up, and let’s see what happens. I suspect no one will buy them used since H price will still be so high. That reputation for high H price will further dampen FCEV sales.

  4. Fool Cell says:

    You could easily get a 60kw battery or more in that monster of a car. Watch out for the hydrogen bomb sorry car.

    1. Dr ValueSeeker says:

      Pal, that 60 kwh will be worth 50 kwh in couple of years. And 30 kwh when the cold winter front hits. Hydrogen tank capacity will remain the same.
      The fuel cell stack will last million miles. The 60 kwh battery otoh..

      1. floydboy says:

        LOL! You are an amusing individual! Smart money would pit the longevity of a temperature controlled pack against a fuel cell stack any day of the week!

        I doubt you get 40,000 miles before having to refurbish the stack!

      2. Nick says:

        Obviously, longevity is one of the big problems with fuel cell stacks.

        The batteries will greatly outlast current fuel cell stacks.

        Thanks!

        1. HydrogenFan says:

          That’s just bollocks, mate. GM’s FC stack is good for at least 300,000 miles, same for Toyota, who actually tests every aspect of the cars they sell, unlike some other new companies. And wait till these Battery Fans get to a charger with long lines- “Charge Rage” will become a new thing- for elites!

          1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

            “Fool cell” fanboys would be more convincing if they were not so obviously just pretending advocacy of FCEVs as a pretext to bash BEVs… and specifically Tesla cars.

            The Toyota Mira comes with a warning label: “DO NOT REFUEL AFTER 2029/11”

            Does Honda Clarity come with a similar warning label? That seems unavoidable, as pure hydrogen embrittles the metal used in fuel lines and even inside the fuel cell stacks themselves.

            Do BEVs have an expiration date? Not so much, which is why you see such desperate and ridiculous FUD like “that 60 kwh will be worth 50 kwh in couple of years” posted here.

            We can be sure that current well-designed BEVs (basically, every modern production BEV using li-ion batteries, other than the Leaf) will be running on the roads long after the insane boondoggle of using compressed hydrogen to fuel cars has been relegated to the dustbin of history.

          2. zzzzzzzzzz says:

            The lines at Tesla chargers are already become an issue in California. Just google it.
            https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/weird-supercharger-incident-reduced-charge.74239/
            https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/slooooooowwwwww-supercharging-0
            And they are dreaming about pushing 0.5 mln cars/year on this pathetic infrastructure. Guess what PG&E would say to them in summer afternoon if they will really do it?

    2. instant tq says:

      and it will be cheaper than any fuel cell car

      1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

        In virtual reality 60 kWh battery would be cheaper than FC car.
        Here on Earth we have FC cars for $350-$368/month including fuel and options with 300+ mile range and 5 minute refuel from 0% to 100%, even if technology is just at the beginning of deployment. While 60 kWh battery only car would be limited to 200+ miles, would have hopelessly slow & unreliable “quick” charging on road, and TCO in the same ballpark. Yes you may get cheaper if you would reduce it to some 30-40 kWh, then it would make great commuter car for city and surburbs and I’m not arguing about it. Going long range with battery only is like attempting to teach pigs how to fly. At least until some Li-S or solid state batteries will get into mass production a decade or two from now.

  5. SJC says:

    Taking a page from the Hyundai Ioniq play book. They can make H2 for $5 per kg. At 300 kg per year that would be 5-10 years of fuel included.

    1. Terawatt says:

      I think you should get one. I mean, you deserve one.

      1. SJC says:

        If that was an attempt at a snide comment it was lame.

    2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      Perhaps they can generate it for $5/kg, but by the time it goes through all the steps it has to, in order to be dispensed into the fuel tank of a “fool cell” car, it will be a lot closer to the current $14-16/kg price. A bit less if it’s made by reforming natural gas, but not that much less.

      1. HydrogenFan says:

        Do you think Elon Musk refers to “fool cells” when he goes to Japan and tries to scrape a few points off the latest price for his lithium batteries? If he does, he’s the fool, because Panasonic makes a household fuel cell unit called the Ene-Farm.

        Educate yourself.

        1. Timmy says:

          Who needs to educate whom? Stationary fuel cells are not fool cells, especially when the heat can be used. It’s the boneheaded belief that they are a good idea for passenger cars that gives rise to the term FOOL CELLS. Good grief.

          1. SJC says:

            How about delivery trucks and semis?
            Cleaner air in the cities with range and less dependence on foreign oil sounds good to me.

        2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          “Panasonic makes a household fuel cell unit called the Ene-Farm.

          “Educate yourself.”

          Dude, I’ve educated myself thoroughly on the subject of the “well to wheel” supply chain for using compressed hydrogen to fuel cars, just how very inefficient, wasteful, and polluting that supply chain is, and why that will never, ever be able to compete with either gasoline or electricity used to power cars.

          What you’re talking about is hydrogen generation as stationary energy storage, which certainly does cut out several of the energy-losing steps of getting that fuel into fool cell cars. But even still, using stationary hydrogen generation to store energy from electricity is only about 50% efficient round-trip. If we’re looking for a good method of storing electricity long-term, then wasting half of the energy ain’t a good answer. We need to keep looking.

          Furthermore, we can be sure that batteries will keep improving in cost and size, so the economic advantage of using battery packs for stationary storage will keep improving.

          Sadly, the hydrogen molecule can’t be improved. Not ever. Claiming otherwise is magical thinking. I prefer reality, thanks.

          1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

            Pu-pu, your knowledge (or rather set of talking points from some Tesla’s Pravda media) is from stone age and you are stubbornly refusing or unable to update it. Solar PV panel factory cost is some $0.40/W now in 2016, and heading to $0.25/W in few years. And you are whining about some round trip efficiency when solar or wind generation cost is not the bottleneck. Energy storage is bottleneck, and Li-Ion batteries are light years behind long-term methane or hydrogen storage in salt caverns both by cost and by ability to scale.

            1. SJC says:

              Why don’t you children grow up?

  6. Brian says:

    This car looks very much like an Accord to me. And that’s a good thing. The Mirai looks as ugly as…well, as ugly as the new Prius, so I guess that’s just what Toyota thinks of alternative fuel vehicles.

    I’m personally waiting to see what they bring to the table for the BEV. And whether they offer it at least in the CARB-ZEV states (probably, at least out of necessity).

    1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      I suggest a more correct description would be “As ugly as a Mirai”. The new Prius, unfortunately, appears to have copied the look (calling it “style” seems highly inappropriate) of the Mirai.

      Ugly? Make that fugly.

    2. Rick Danger says:

      It looks like what Nash would make if they were still around.

  7. ModernMarvelFan says:

    I will take the PHEV version over this FC version any day.

  8. John says:

    You can tell which automakers want to actually sell their Alt. Energy vehicles by how goofy they look….

    Tesla – Looks great, sells them as fast as they make them.

    Honda – Looks fugly, will tell Trump “no one wanted them, now lower fuel economy targets”

    1. Brian says:

      Really? Does the Accord look fugly to you? In 2015, 355,557 Americans thought it looked good enough for them to be seen in.

      1. Yogurt says:

        Doesnt look anything like an Acord to me…
        The Acord is just a typical average car but this is actualy fuglier than the Prime to me…
        I also dont think legacy auto makes the cars look ugly so they wont sell they are still under the illusion that they have to make EVs stand out for some stupid reason…
        GM is the exception to this with the Bolt which is also a standard run of the mill design…

        1. Brian says:

          Please elaborate on what you find so “fugly”. I have seen the concept Clarity on the auto show floor, and it looks like another Honda mid-sized sedan. Nothing really jumps out at me. I’m not sure why everyone is getting so bent out of shape over the Clarity’s look.

          1. Bill Howland says:

            I’v seen views of the Clarity from different angles and its more elegant than the Mirai, or the Prius Prime.

            Agreed – I’m waiting to see what a 60 or 120 kwh Clarity looks like… They’ll sell more than 5 or 6 of them at a time unlike these fuel celled vehicles. I don’t think ultimately FC vehicles will be able to compete on price with EV’s.

            Fuel Cell advocates criticizing electric charging forget that, if a person thinks he’s going to have a problem that way, and the home charging and occassional public charging isn’t enough, that there will soon be many fine PHEV products that provide essentially ‘all electric’ driving, but in emergencies or vacations can revert to ubiquitous gasoline stations.

            1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

              ICE PHEV is fine as intermediate solution, but it doesn’t work for half of the world population that may need to park on street or in random places. And the ICE PHEV production cost makes it hard to compete with plain ICE cars without some tax incentives.

              FC can be cost-competitive drop-in replacement for ICE both for PHEV and for plain ICE cars/truck/SUVs. No fundamental breakthroughs are needed, just scaling of existing technology.

    2. Dr ValueSeeker says:

      Johnny boy said “Tesla – Looks great, sells them as fast as they make them.”

      Whom are you kidding son? There are thousands of new Teslas listed on ev-cpo.com. They are only the tip of the ice berg. Over 30 P100Ds in US. Seems the Musk excuse of “can’t make battery packs for 100D” is no more. Waiting to hear the next excuse from Mr. Musk in the next dreadful earnings call.

      1. Rick Danger says:

        And yet, Tesla gets bigger and better every year. When wilst thou get a clue?

      2. Nix says:

        Tesla is selling them off Inventory fast too. The median listing age is a bit over two weeks, and the industry average is over 70 days before sale.

        https://www.edmunds.com/industry-center/data/days-to-turn-by-category.html

        Also, when you compare the number of US models listed in Inventory, it represents about 1% of total US sales.

        So your big whine is that around 1% of Tesla’s new cars they sell in the US have been listed on their virtual lot for a fraction of the national average?

        I thought you were going to disclose your short position when you posted about Tesla? What happened to that agreement?

  9. ffbj says:

    I read where you can lease a Fiat ev in CA for
    $49 a month. They are just so desperate to get some credits for them, and I suppose they just can’t sell, as the Bolt is just too much car, in regards to range, for them to compete with, but they need those credits.

    1. SparkEV says:

      I suspect that’s the case of 500e being cheaper to make. With Pacifica, they probably got some good deals on battery.

      Similar thing happened with SparkEV Apr. 2015. That’s about the time when Bolt went into serious pre-production, and probably got “$145/kWh” deal on battery.

  10. speculawyer says:

    It is not interesting to criticize fuel cell cars these days. They are the walking dead now and pretty much everyone but the most die-hard fuel cell fanboys know it.

    Toyota and Honda largely throwing in the towel was the end. At this point they are just going through the motions of finishing the science project and collecting some CARB credits.

    1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

      Please let us know when Tesla will be leasing 366 mile/5 minute 0-100% recharge cars for $369/month including fuel, maintenance and extra rental 😉 I’ll be first in line (joking). Meanwhile you can pretend that everything is fine, nobody needs to travel over 200 miles from home or use a truck for business, and TSLA will get really profitable any time soon. And pigs will start flying too of course :/

      1. speculawyer says:

        OK, maybe I can have some fun criticizing fuel cells cars. The $369/month is a heavily subsidized lease, it is not a real world price. And yeah, you better not travel more than 200 miles in your fuel cell car because you will soon be too far away from the very few hydrogen fueling stations.

        Fuel cell cars do have an advantage of being able to fuel in 10 minutes (not 5 by what I have seen). However, that one advantage is completely destroyed by the fact that hydrogen is very expensive, the hydrogen is not green, and there is almost no fueling infrastructure.

        Since people rarely drive long distances, having to charge up for 45 minutes every 4 hours or so is not that much of a problem. But if you absolutely insist that you can’t handle that . . . then just buy a PHEV like the Volt. Most of your daily driving will be on cheap electricity and you can refuel with gasoline in 5 minutes ANYWHERE.

        1. floydboy says:

          DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!

        2. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sven says:

          Edmunds did a long-term review of the Mirai that lasted 6 months and covered 7,925 miles, and invariably reported 5-minute fueling times and not a single fueling that took anywhere near 10 minutes. The hydrogen stations were always working, except for one instance (reviewer did not check the H2 station status app beforehand). The reviewer drove to another nearby H2 station to fill up, and a technician arrived at the broken station shortly after the reviewer left and fixed/reset the dispenser.

          The only service that the Mirai required during its long-term test was a tire rotation, unlike the Edmund’s long-term Model S, which required both the battery and motor to be replaced multiple times.

          Edmunds took a 500+ mile road trip with a Mirai and a Model X from Santa Monica to Lake Tahoe. The Mirai got to Lake Tahoe 90-minutes faster than the Model X, even though the Mirai driver took an extra 15 minutes in total to stop 3 times for lunch, and also stopped for 10 minutes to take a walk to a geocache. A couple of days later on the return leg of the road trip, the Model X left the Lake Tahoe hotel with a fully charged battery and took a short cut through the mountains. The Mirai had a depleted tank and couldn’t make it to the Sacramento H2 station southeast of Lake Tahoe where it had fueled on the way up to Lake Tahoe. Instead, the Mirai had to travel north to the Truckhee H2 fueling station before turning south to head back to Santa Monica, and also had to travel an extra 18 miles after missing the exit for the H2 fueling station. Yet the Mirai still managed to beat the Model X back to Santa Monica.

          1. Dave says:

            Cool. How did they do from LA to Chicago?

            1. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sven says:

              Come to think of it, the Mirai left for Chicago months ago. I don’t know what’s taking them so long. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

              I’ll let you know when the Mirai gets to Chi-Town

            2. zzzzzzzzzz says:

              “Cool. How did they do from LA to Chicago?”

              I guess they just got Avis Luxury rental that is included in Honda Clarity lease. Or bought plane tickets. Not sure about Mirai, but it also has some rental included in lease. Avis allows unlimited millage for the same price, so why would you add depreciation & maintenance on your own car, even if you need to pay full fuel/rental cost for cross country trip.
              In Europe you can travel cross continent on some routes on hydrogen, and I suspect it would be much faster than Tesla’s currently best (until 350 kW open standard chargers are deployed) slooow “quick” charging network.

          2. speculawyer says:

            I see you just pretended not to see the killer part.

            “But if you absolutely insist that you can’t handle that . . . then just buy a PHEV like the Volt. Most of your daily driving will be on cheap electricity and you can refuel with gasoline in 5 minutes ANYWHERE.”

            Personally, I’m fine with the current long-range EVs.

            But when you compare fuel cell cars to PHEVs, there is pretty much nothing that the fuel cells cars can beat the PHEVs at.

            1. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sven says:

              Nothing except lower well-to-wheels CO2 emissions than a PHEV, and never using fuel made from crude oil, especially crude oil imported from countries that support terrorism and attacks-against/destruction-of the United States of America.

              1. mont says:

                frak them all. Subsidize domestic fracking for next four years; tank russia and all OPEC and oil countries economies.

                Oh wait, this is an EV site!

                FC is early technology. It definitely has clean energy and viable alternative and backup options with a built in V2H option for earthquake CA (and OK with all the fracking)

    2. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sven says:

      Throwing in the towel? Toyota is bringing hydrogen FC semi trucks to California, and will be building hydrogen FC buses for the Japanese market. Meanwhile, China and Korea recently announced their future hydrogen FCV plans:

      “The Chinese government announced on November 8 that it was planning to supply 50,000 hydrogen electric cars by 2025 and one million ones by 2030. In order to supply hydrogen electric vehicles, it plans to build 300 hydrogen filling stations by 2025 and 1,000 hydrogen filling stations by 2030.”

      “The Korean government also aims to supply 10,000 hydrogen cars and build 100 hydrogen filling stations by 2020.”

      http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/english/news/industry/16601-hydrogen-car-competition-korea-japan-lead-global-fcev-market-two-frontrunners

      China also just ordered 13 one-megawatt electrolyzers to produce green hydrogen for its planned deployment of fuel cell buses.

      http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20161220005202/en/Proton-OnSite-Awarded-13-Megawatt-Electrolyzers

      1. speculawyer says:

        As I said . . . “everyone but the most die-hard fuel cell fanboys know it.”

        1. ffbj says:

          Drowning men will clutch at straws.

    3. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sven says:

      Toyota and other HFCV automakers aren’t throwing in the towel in Canada either.

      Instead, they are lobbying the Canadian government for H2 station funding and HFCV purchase incentives:

      “A coalition of big automakers has asked the federal cabinet to help fund a network of hydrogen-fuelling stations for a fleet of vehicles powered by fuel cells.”

      “The six automakers — Hyundai, Toyota, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Honda and Kia — are registered to lobby the federal government over the Electric Vehicle and Alternative Fuel Infrastructure Initiative, a fund that was given $62.5 million over two years in the last federal budget to build electric and alternative fuel charging infrastructure.”

      “But the coalition, which is proposing $100 million in federal funding to help build 100 hydrogen fuelling stations and $75 million to incentivize purchases of FCEVs for fleets and consumers, said it doesn’t know if that fund will be used for their project.”

      https://ipolitics.ca/2016/11/06/big-automakers-looking-for-hydrogen-investment/

      1. Terawatt says:

        A criminal use of public funds if they get it.

      2. super390 says:

        Of course they’re lobbying the government. The entire economics of fuel cells requires that someone else get stuck with the bill for building tens of thousands of refueling stations. That is why Toyota and Honda have not built anything on the scale of the Supercharger network. If they did so, Congress would say, “you don’t need our help.”

      3. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        sven said:

        “Toyota and other HFCV automakers… are lobbying the Canadian government for H2 station funding and HFCV purchase incentives”

        Well of course they are! Fool cell cars can’t possibly compete with either gasmobiles or robust EVs on a level playing field, without insane levels of subsidies.

        No reasonable and informed person can possibly think there is any good reason to keep wasting taxpayer money on the “hydrogen economy” boondoggle, which benefits only Big Oil.

        1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

          “..robust EVs on a level playing field, without insane levels of subsidies”

          Pu-pu, your weed is really strong. Where did you saw EVs that can compete without heavy subsidies right now before production is scaled up? Tesla CEO is publicly whining for not enough corporate welfare, as if free factories in corrupt New York and federal tax credits for vanity car buyers isn’t enough:
          http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/03/elon-musk-is-furious-at-a-small-california-state-agency.html
          https://www.cfact.org/2016/05/13/elon-musks-solarcity-sucked-into-federal-corruption-probe/
          http://jalopnik.com/tesla-contractors-havent-been-paid-in-months-due-to-new-1789498452

          But you still have enough arrogance to complain about some $100 million for Canadian infrastructure that is not your business at all by the way. Go to bed with your beloved “evil” Koch brother urban legend, they will certainly support your anti-subsidy (except when subsidies are for you personally) stance.

  11. CLIVE says:

    Fools driving Fool-Cells.

    1. floydboy says:

      Be nice CLIVE!

      1. CLIVE says:

        I am just saying.

  12. Terawatt says:

    Honda delivered its first, and nearly last, HFC cars.

    Hurrah.

    What next? Trump cells? With compressed Mexicans providing all the power you need.

  13. floydboy says:

    Let’s see, they’re not for sale, have no use of battery as backup(which essentially tethers one to the fuel source, halving the available travel distance) are giving away the fuel and severely limiting who can lease the vehicle?

    I’m calling this a temporary placeholder. When the full BEV comes along, this will go bye-bye. Until then, maybe they’ll collect enough credits to offset some of the development costs.

    1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      It’s no coincidence that only Japanese auto makers are putting fool cell cars into production. That’s because the Japanese government is providing an astonishingly high level of subsidies for every fool cell car sold.

      It’s also no coincidence that the only people posting here in defense of fool cell cars are serial Tesla bashers and very probably short-selling investors in Tesla stock. Two examples: “Dr. ValueSeeker” regularly writes anti-Tesla blog posts for Seeking Alpha, and zzzzzzzzzz recently posted a comment to InsideEVs that he hopes to soon see Tesla’s stock become a penny stock.

      1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        Ooops, that was a bit of an overstatement on my part. Hyundai also sells a fool cell car, the Tucson, and Hyundai is based in S. Korea.

        Presumably the intended target is mainly Japan, a market for cars which Hyundai has previously been unsuccessful at penetrating.

        1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

          Oops, and Daimler is selling too. Oops and BMW has plans too in cooperation with Toyota. Oops, and GM is selling to US military. Must be some conspiracy!! Ooops, may be you should look at mirror Pu-pu if you want too see Big Round Fool trolling every FC post.

  14. David Murray says:

    Honda lost the hybrid game a long time ago and hasn’t caught up since. I don’t see them catching up in the plug-in space anytime soon.

  15. Timmy says:

    A few sell fool cells
    not to fuel sages,
    but to say “FU, el silage”
    held in the fuselage.

    Well, it started off good, anyhow.

  16. bogdan says:

    The Clarity project has been around since 2007 and did’t took off yet.
    10 years later, same problem: scarce fuelling stations, very high price of fuel and car, mediocre performance. This means very low sell numbers.
    Why are they wasting money on it? ZEV credits?

    1. Timmy says:

      Yes. Probably mixed with some pride (refusal to admit defeat).

    2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      bogdan asked:

      “Why are they wasting money on it? ZEV credits?”

      No, it’s the insane levels of subsidies that the Japanese government gives to fool cell cars. Please note that both Toyota and Honda are Japanese auto makers.

      “Japan will provide a purchase subsidy of 2 million yen ($19,740) or more towards fuel cell vehicles.”

      Full article here:
      http://insideevs.com/japanese-government-offer-20000-subsidy-fuel-cell-vehicle-purchases/

  17. Mister G says:

    I PITY THE FOOL cell..lol