European Parliament Prepares Draft Calling for Termination of CHAdeMO in Europe

AUG 6 2013 BY MARK KANE 82

Nissan LEAF Interacts With The CHAdeMO Protocol

CHAdeMO Association reported alarming news that the European Parliament prepared a draft to terminate the CHAdeMO standard in Europe:

CHAdeMO Announcing 2,501 Fast Charging Stations Deployed Around The World

CHAdeMO Announcing 2,501 Fast Charging Stations Deployed Around The World

“The European Parliament prepares a draft that suggests to terminate CHAdeMO in Europe at the end of 2018, because “the Combo technology is not fully ready at the moment and as there are more than 650 CHAdeMO chargers already installed in Europe, with more than 1 000 to be deployed by the end of 2013” (Amendment 70 on Page 45). CHAdeMO Association is very surprised to learn of this suggestion. While we prepare our reaction to this latest draft report, you can find its original here on the European Parliament website.”

The European Commission earlier decided that IEC 62196-2 Type 2 will be the target AC charging standard for 1 and 3-phase current and now the battle is on for fast DC charging. If the European Union bans CHAdeMO, then manufacturers eventually will not be able to sell vehicles equipped with the CHAdeMO inlet.

“Amendment
Direct Current (DC) fast recharging points for electric vehicles may be alternatively equipped with connectors of Type “CHAdeMO” for a transitional period ending on 31 December 2018.”

From Left to Right: Mennekes, CHAdeMO and Combo

From Left to Right: Mennekes, CHAdeMO and Combo

If such a thing passes, we can be sure that operators will move from CHAdeMO to CCS or CHAdeMO/CCS chargers earlier then 2018 and the  CHAdeMO inlet will disappear in new vehicles well before this date (we see no market for vehicles equipped with a near-death QC standard).

The “funny” part is, of course, that CHAdeMO dominates Europe’s DC quick charging in terms of number of chargers, number of compatible vehicles and models on the market.  It will be a huge loss to ban a standard when so much effort was put in, mainly by Japanese manufacturers.

For now, CCS does not exist in commercial use.  The most popular EV, the Nissan LEAF, uses CHAdeMO. Renault Zoe and the electric smart are using 3-phase AC for faster charging.

Will it be wise to force the adoption of a standard that’s only found on a few upcoming, lower volume vehicles like the BMW i3 or VW e-up!?

And what will become of Tesla’s connector in the Model S? If CHAdeMO is banned, are we to assume that Tesla’s connector will follow?

Fortunately, there are countries out there like Norway (not a member of the European Union) that will continue to use CHAdeMO.  And, as expected, the CHAdeMO Association loves Norway, stating:

 “Norway, the most CHAdeMO-friendly country in Europe.”

For now, the European Parliament’s efforts to ban CHAdeMO remain only in the draft stage,  Let’s us hope it goes no further than that.

Categories: Charging

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82 Comments on "European Parliament Prepares Draft Calling for Termination of CHAdeMO in Europe"

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scottf200
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scottf200

Re: And what will become of Tesla’s connector in the Model S? If CHAdeMO is banned, are we to assume that Tesla’s connector will follow?

Perhaps I misunderstood the above or there was not much search/research done. This has been all over the TMC forum as well. See:

http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/eu-model-questions-and-official-tesla-answers
Q: Definitive answer on the charge-plug on the EU versions?
A: Mennekes Type 2

George
Guest
George

Mennekes does not make Teslas connectors. The EU Model S will get a modified type 2 connector that can handle both AC and DC.

scottf200
Guest
scottf200

Not sure what you were correcting from what I posted. Again all those details are on TMC as well as videos and user doc. AC and DC version listed here it seems: http://www.mennekes.de/en/latest0.html?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=851&cHash=e8c0b2b3dcd8ab512d9abd3a7870ec7c

Josh
Guest

Thanks for that link.

It looks like Model S will only be able to charge at 70 kW at SuperChargers because of the use of the Mennekes charge port (DC mid – 500V DC at 140 Amps). I know they added the 3-phase charging, but it is to bad the EU will miss out on the 120 kW capability of Tesla’s proprietary connector.

Ydnas7
Guest
Ydnas7

Don’t assume that Tesla is limited to 70kW,
car side Tesla’s plug is keyed to accept Mennekes but plug side it will not go into a standard Mennekes car (ie ZOE etc)
so, its embraces and extends Mennekes similar to DC Combo, but elegantly and robustly, (not the frankenplug way)

Max
Guest
Max

In short – stupid, given the fact that all of the fast charge HW manufacturers have already introduced combined Chademo, CCS + fats AC stations. This will begin the war that will happen in European courts because it can easily be treated as artificial limitation of competition on the market. The result of the war will be slow down of charging infrastructure and sales of cars with fast charge option in Europe.

Really really sad.

Spec
Guest
Spec

The war already exists. This is a move to end the war not start it.

Tony Williams
Guest

This is a move to escalate the war, in a lethal way. GM already tried this trick unsuccessfully in California (where there are more EVs than any other US state).

I suspect this legislative attack will be the norm from here on out. New Jersey may have just implemented a new charging network devoid of CHAdeMO (sorry, no confirmation yet on that).

It’s all the Frankenplug bloc consortium has, because it sure isn’t cars or chargers!!!

Hopefully, the heavy hitters using CHAdeMO won’t let these actions go unchallenged. Perhaps a simple law in Japan that no German or US cars that use Frankenplug on their cars can be sold in Japan. Or a law that says that auto manufacturers from countries that block CHAdeMO can’t be sold in Japan.

Spec
Guest
Spec

Oh cry some more and keep using childish names. Grow up.

This the way the big boys play. Deal with it.

And why are you hating on American car makers? Why are you demanding that Japan create a discriminatory law? You just whined about this discriminatory law and then demand Japan do the same? Completely hypocritical.

David Stone
Guest
David Stone

It is the grown-up way to accept something, just because it is?
If that were true, we would still be throwing stones at each other and hunting in packs.

This ban is wrong, plain and simple, and will only be abandoned if enough people protest.

And there was no hating on american car makers, just a suggestion to threaten similar measures to discourage the ban.

The only hating was against anyone doing something wrong, being the EU for proposing a ban and GM for something similar.

Saying you can only critisize non americans is nationalism at its most pathetic.

Spec
Guest
Spec

Well if you want to be real mature about it, the best thing to push for is whatever will create a single standard that is agreed upon by all of the auto manufacturer. A single industry-approved standard for an entire region is what would be best to move EVs forward.

Now what is the best way to achieve that?
1) Back an existing standard really only being pushed by a single company because it has few cars out there? Or . .
2) Back a standard that has been created by the industry’s standard organization (SAE) and has been adopted as the official standard by a majority of the car makers?

An objective analysis would point to #2 being the best path to creating a single approved standard.

A lot of people that already own CHAdeMO cars are going to get emotional about this because they have a vested interest.

Tony Williams
Guest

The old adage applies… the best thing about standards is that there are so many to chose from.

Clearly, you’ve chosen yours in principle (since there aren’t any), and about 100,000 people around the world have chosen theirs already and are actually using them.

I agree with the one standard policy. GM and the German car makers do not, and are proposing to add yet another standard. I say, no thanks.

Your nationalist protectionism certainly is something that GM and those foreign German companies would like to capitalize on… because foreign Japan is not as good as foreign Germany.

Frankenplug is DOA in the USA.

Spec
Guest
Spec

My nationalist protectionism? You are the one who said “Perhaps a simple law in Japan that no German or US cars that use Frankenplug on their cars can be sold in Japan. Or a law that says that auto manufacturers from countries that block CHAdeMO can’t be sold in Japan.”

You are the one supporting nationalist protectionism. I’m just pragmatically saying that the standard with the largest number of automakers behind it should win. Period. The current number of EVs with DC chargers in the USA and Europe is statistically about zero and doesn’t really matter.

You apparently have a CHAdeMO car and get all emotional about this to the point that you advocate nationalist discriminatory laws and use slurs like ‘Frankenplug’. Grow up.

Steve
Guest
Steve

Spec says “The standard with the largest number of automakers behind it should win. Period. The current number of EVs with DC chargers in the USA and Europe is statistically about zero and doesn’t really matter.”

Tens of thousands of existing EV drivers might say “The standard with the largest existing installed base should win. Period. The current number of EVs with CHAdeMO chargers in the USA and Europe (and Japan) is statistically about 100% of the installed base.”

WopOnTour
Guest

I know, maybe we should ask the Japanese (or Musk & Ghosn?) to re-write the entire NEC electrical code in the USA while they’re at it? LOL
That’s fine if Tesla want to construct their own proprietary network of chargers THEY have built, with THEIR money, for THEIR customers as that’s THEIR business. But you simply can’t expect public utilities or government to do the same. THEIR function is to endorse and promote REAL standards developed by REAL recognized and qualified entities that THEY have a ratified responsibility to endorse- such as those created by the NEC, ANSI, IEC, NFPA,CSA, and the SAE. NOT a mere consortium of electric car builders, or video game manufacturers, or po-go stick constructors, or time machine makers.
It just doesn’t work that way even if you or Elon Musk or even 30,000 Leaf owners might think it should. (of which only a small fraction actually have fast charging anyways so…) Get real!

Tony Williams
Guest

Well, at least you’re misinformed! You might want to check your data on those 30,000 LEAFs in the USA (and 70,000 worldwide, plus another 30,000 CHAdeMO equipped cars).

But, hey, let’s not let facts get in the way. Love your thoughts on who is actually making EVs in the world. That’s the kind of supreme ignorance and arrogance that companies like GM displayed in the past when Japanese car manufacturers first came to the USA. We all see how that worked out.

We do know who isn’t building mass volume EVs in the world; every single one of the eight US (except world EV leader Tesla, of course) and German auto makers who have raised their plugs in the electric vehicle charging war.

I think I’ll keep my Tesla stock.

WopOnTour
Guest

There’s no war. There won’t even be a battle. lol

WopOnTour
Guest

So since you seem to think you’re “in the know” how many of the 29.193 Leafs sold in the U.S. since Dec 2010 have fast charge capability and CHADEMO port? Is it not “fractional” as I stated? I would suggest very much so – but you tell me! lol

Tony Williams
Guest

I just realized that your the … from the GM-Volt forum who gave me a “first and final warning” to ban me from that site. I’ve been bragging to all my friends about your actions, and wouldn’t ya know that I’m not the first to get such treatment from you. You’re famous!!!

Anyhoo, I obviously won’t waste anytime trying to educate GM zombies like yourself who have years of sucking up paychecks through our very own recently bankrupt, multi-government owned auto maker.

>>>> which only a small fraction actually have fast charging anyways so <<<<<

Yep, your clueless Don't let that Frankenplug get wedged too tight up "your six".

WopOnTour
Guest

What treatment was that? The only “treatment” you received was a warning that “personal attacks” were not permitted on gm-volt.com and that if future transgressions of that nature were observed you could be subject to a forum ban.
I guess that’s unreasonable to the likes of an “EV advocate” such as yourself?
The gm-volt.com forums are NOT the “Wild West” like a blog that permits incognito posters to call people names, belittle, or insult them. You seem to be very well versed at that as displayed by your statements over there. So feel free come back to our forums and either “check” yourself and discuss these issues like an adult, OR continue on your foul-mouth tirade in which I can assure you it WILL result in banned.

Now back on topic.

Do you KNOW the exact number of “fast charge capable” Leafs out of the roughly 30,000 or so that exist in the USA or not?? If it’s NOT a “small fraction” as I indicated then can I presume it’s a LARGE fraction? You seem to know everything. So put up or shut up!

offib
Guest
offib

What the hell!? This is awful! If anyone remembers, countries like Estonia, UK and Ireland has bent over backwards for building proper and attractive infrastructure! From an Irish perspective, the CHAdeMOs are the only rapid chargers and there’s quite a lot enough to deem as satisfactory to travel long and irregular distances. So much money invested into them, and they’ll be just terminated in over 4 years?! That will be a horrendous waste. Seriously, it’s saddening and almost suspicious. It would be no surprise to hear if German manufacturers like VW would have done any lobbying to do with this. What will happen to all of the owners who own electric cars equipped with CHAdeMO charging?

This is going to prove to be such a waste of time and investment. This could harm future adoption of EV ownership and might even put off current EV drivers if the termination of CHAdeMO actually comes to play. I certainly would never buy or recommend a VW e-up!, for many reasons, one being for not having a CHAdeMO and I think VW knows about that too.

David Murray
Guest
David Murray

What the hell? This is just as crazy as the government deciding to ban USB in favor of firewire. Or to favor Blueray over DVD. I mean, what business is it of the government?

Aaron
Guest
Aaron

It’s good to have a standard, but let the market decide. The market has, in fact, already decided: CHAdeMO is by far the most popular standard. I wondered why the SAE standard even existed. Was it the “we didn’t make it, so we won’t use it” school of thought?

MTN Ranger
Guest
MTN Ranger

Last time I checked, GM, Ford, Mercedes, BMW, VW/Audi/Porsche, Chrysler, etc are bigger than Nissan and Mitsubishi. Case closed, CHAdeMO will get swamped by the bigger players over the next few years in North America and Europe.

Ydnas7
Guest
Ydnas7

Last time I checked, GM, Ford, Mercedes, BMW, VW/Audi/Porsche, Chrysler, etc have minisule dedicated battery EV programs compared to Nissan and Mitsubishi. Case closed, CHAdeMO will continue to swamp CCS EU spec for the next few years in Europe, And CHAdeMO will swamp and outlast CCS US spec until both are replaced by something better at some distant point in the future.

Spec
Guest
Spec

Mitsubishi has 1 kei car that has flopped. Nissan has the Leaf and that is it. No, those two cars are do not swamp the Spark, Volt, E-Golf, Fiat 500e, BMW i3, Smart ED, etc.

GSP
Guest
GSP

If you add up the Sparks, Volts, eGolfs, 500e, i3, Smart EDs, equipped with DC fast charging it would be way less than the Leaf alone. Most of those cares don’t even have a DC fast charge option. Currently NONE of them have the option!

GSP

Tony Williams
Guest

The good news is that we will know is just a year or two how serious these Frankenplug manufacturers are. Fiat/Chrysler is saying “10 more years” before they have more than a strict compliance car (currently the Fiat 500e).

GM has been telling their folks internally that the Chevy Spark EV will remain compliance car only, and only in California and Oregon. Of course, the Volt will never have a Frankenplug.

German manufacturer BMW has high hopes with the i3, but initial reviews are spotty. They will need to sell that car in California for their compliance program.

Ford, not even a Frankenplug car on the drawing board. VW and Mercedes, strictly compliance. Audi, out of the game, as is Porsche (neither have requirements to CARB due to their low volume sales, or they can use hybrids for the ZEV mandate). Mercedes, B-Class EV compliance car.

Not looking good, considering that the LEAF will sell more in one month than many of these manufacturers have planned for the ENTIRE multi-year run of compliance cars.

Yep, not looking so rosy unless you have rose colored glasses.

Suprise Cat
Guest

Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and many others are also Chademo supporting members.

Spec
Guest
Spec

But none of them make a single CHAdeMO car do they? Not exactly big supporters are they?

Suprise Cat
Guest

Toyota had hold the iQ EV, but it’s not complete scrapped and they still making some new test cars.

http://www.expansion.com/2013/07/26/empresas/motor/1374858583.html

The latest step from Toyota to join charging station deployment in Japan may be a hint, that there will be a Toyota EV or much improved plugin hybrid in the near future.

Tony Williams
Guest

It’s always great to hear the faithful parroting their hopes of a Frankenplug world. Thankfully for EVs around the world, you have no substance in your statements. More significant is the dedication of companies like Nissan, who just announced 100% EVs by 2050.

That’s surely not to say that folks like you and the Frankenplug bloc won’t pull a lot of dirty tricks, regardless of the outcome. CHAdeMO will largely remain the defacto world charging standard until something replaces it in 10-20 years.

Naturally, I hope that consensus will be found in the 250-500kW standard, but already the Frankenplug bloc has tried to muddy that up, too.

Anderlan
Guest
Anderlan

Which standards are patent protected and which one’s require only non-IP costs to build? I think a govt has a right to ban patent-protected standards in the name of waste-reducing standardization. I mean, we are all sitting here at this moment benefiting from the EU’s forcing phone makers to standardize on micro USB.

Suprise Cat
Guest
And now consumer all around the world suffer from this poor political dictatorship. USB was designed for data transmission, not for charging. Especially micro USB plug has a lot of down sides: – can only plugged in one direction – has low voltage, requires high currents – has very small contacts, allows only low currents -> long charging times – mechanical fragile plug design, because the plug was only made for occasional data connections, not for everyday charging use – you can not use the phone while charging, because you need to fear the micro USB pops out or even breaks apart – is not scalable; it was set as standard at a time, when the batteries were much smaller than today, which results in much longer charging times today, or proprietary, incompatible software controlled high power modes There was already an industrial standard for power supply plug, the jack plug. It doesn’t require a specific direction to plug in, is mechanical very stable, has large contact surface and the cable can even be rotated while in use, so you can still use the phone while charging. Of cause, there were many different sizes, but the 3.5 mm jack plug… Read more »
kdawg
Guest

I think its better for everyone to use the same standard in order to help adoption. I’m sure adapters & combo starters can exist for the next decade while all this gets sorted out.

If someone like Tesla wants to build their own proprietary charging stations, that is their prerogative. But if government funds are used for public stations, then it should be one standard.

Ydnas7
Guest
Ydnas7

This is not about government funds, this is a simple ban on vehicles with Chademo.

similar to a ban on new vehicles with old refrigerant

Tony Williams
Guest

Hey, we agree!! One standard (and let Tesla do their own thing).

Frankenplug = DOA in the USA

Spec
Guest
Spec

Oh jeez, I’ve pointing this out for a while now. The US and European car makers don’t want to pay the TEPCO royalties for CHAdeMO. That is not an unreasonable position.

I know a lot of early adopters are going to be annoyed but that is a risk you take by being an early adopter. CHAdeMO was never a worldwide industry-approved adopted standard, it was merely a de facto standard backed by a handful of Japanese automakers. The Japanese also created the first HDTV standard but it didn’t get adopted worldwide either. (And good thing too . . . it was a stupid analog system.)

Bloggin
Guest
Bloggin

With every other manufacturer besides Nissan/Renault is set to offer the Combo Charger in the US(14 million market) the 2nd largest auto market in the world, and soon China(19 million market) the #1 auto market in the world, it makes sense that Europe, the #8 (2 million market) followed suite.

Then there is tiny, tiny Norway as part of Europe that will transition also. Total auto sales YTD is only 81,956. To put that number into perspective, the Chrysler 200 has sold 83,137 in the US.

Which makes it clear that the next gen Leaf will come with the Combo Charger as an option in all major markets. Which also means that the new chargers Nissan will install in the states, will be duel chargers, CHAdeMO for first gen Leaf and Combo for second generation Leaf EVs.

So it looks like Japan will be on it’s own at #3 and at 5 million market to maintain their CHAdeMo system.

It does seem the CHAdeMO charger is going the way of the Beta Max rather quickly.

Suprise Cat
Guest

Bullshit.

MTN Ranger
Guest
MTN Ranger

I totally agree. Death to CHAdeMO.

Tony Williams
Guest

Wow, aren’t you a peach? Death? Clearly this battle is going to get a LOT more ugly with guys like you out there.

MTN Ranger
Guest
MTN Ranger

Lighten up Francis. Shouldn’t you be harassing owners on the Spark EV message board. 🙂

Ydnas7
Guest
Ydnas7

http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3408
Actually, former Spark EV owners like Magicinstalls probably appreciate some honest disclosure before purchase…
and Tony has done plenty to get real life disclosure for Nissan LEAF too…

Josh
Guest

Wow, Magicinstalls story is why dealerships should not be selling EVs.

Spec
Guest
Spec

Coming from the guy saying ‘Frankenplug’ non-stop? That’s rich.

David
Guest
David

Right. A bunch of manufacturers which don’t make EVs are setting the standard for the ones that do make EVs and have charge station infrastructure in place.

Spec
Guest
Spec

Don’t make EVs? GM makes the Spark EV and the Volt. Ford makes the Focus electric, the C-Max Energi, and the Fusion Energi. Even Chrysler makes the Fiat 500e. Benz makes the Smart ED. BMW makes the i3.

And Nissan doesn’t have to adopt the standard if they don’t want to . . . but that would not seem like a wise decision.

Jens Kirkeboe
Guest
Jens Kirkeboe

Of those, only the Spark and i3 can quick charge anyway, and the i3 is not in production yet. The Volt isn’t even an EV, it’s a hybrid like the Ford Energis. Hybrids don’t need quick charging anyway.

Spec
Guest
Spec

Bloggin, that is pretty much the way I see it working out as well.

I think that if Nissan were really smart, they would have quickly adopted SAE-CCS and had the first SAE-CCS car available for sale. But it seems they are going to put up a fight . . . at least for a while.

But with the Big 3 and every German automaker aligned against them they must realize that it is hopeless.

Josh
Guest

Since nobody has ever built a car for sale to consumers that has the SAE-CCS port on it, I would say it is not hopeless.

We will see how it works out, but GM is certainly not being serious about pushing the standard by not including it on the Spark from the start. In fact 3.3 kW is the fasting charging GM has ever put on a vehicle. That doesn’t sound like commitment to fast charging.

Only the Model S, LEAF, and i-MIEV, have made an effort to push DC quick charging to this date.

Spec
Guest
Spec

It is hard for EV owners to see the big picture but the number of EVs on the road right now is pretty much statistically zero. And the EV market share for car sales right now is what . . . 0.3% or so? The current market numbers right now are irrelevant for long-term issues.

Tony Williams
Guest

And so will Frankenplug be irrelevant in the long term, with a base of zero cars and zero chargers!

CHAdeMO will likely double in the next two years, from 3000 to 6000 installs. They’ll need lot’s of guys like you trying to stop it with national protectionism, not-invented-here syndrome, and generic name calling.

Yep, that oughta do it!!!

Spec
Guest
Spec

You are quite the case of projection!

You are the one advocating nationalist protectionism. You said “Perhaps a simple law in Japan that no German or US cars that use Frankenplug on their cars can be sold in Japan. Or a law that says that auto manufacturers from countries that block CHAdeMO can’t be sold in Japan.”

You are the with the name-calling with your endless ‘Frankenplug’ Tourette’s syndrome.

Assaf
Guest
Assaf

Can someone enlighten me regarding which standard has bragging rights to being better? That is, safer / more efficient / whatever.

Thanks!

Bloggin
Guest
Bloggin

The proposed SAE J1772™ combo-coupler is designed to accommodate AC L1&L2 and DC L1&L2 charging all in a single vehicle inlet.

Vehicles using this coupler could be capable of being charged at 12 amp – from a regular 110 VAC wall outlet (1.4kw), up to 80 amp @ 240 VAC (19.2kw) or up to 200 amp – 200 to 450 VDC 90kw DC.

Communications between the vehicle and off-board charger as well as communication between the vehicle and smart grid will be done by Power Line Carrier (PLC) technology and requires no extra pins in the coupler.

The communications technology also enables other customer focused features such a accessing the vehicle infotainment system to download multimedia files or receive diagnostic information from the vehicle.

The SAE Combo solution represents an integrated solution to charging allowing for future customer features enabled by communication with the vehicle.

Josh
Guest

Does the current J1772 protocol have authentication/payment communication built into it? The most immediate need is to prevent owners from having to carry around 3 different fobs to use public chargers.

Roy_H
Guest
Roy_H

CHAdeMo was the first available, and as such built with available parts and protocol.
Later versions like SAE J1772 and Tesla were designed specifically for the auto charging market. They are more compact, and use fewer pins. The control pins (only 2) vs 8 for CHAdeMo are much larger so less likely to get bent. Newer versions, being simplified, are cheaper to manufacturer. CHAdeMo is ONLY high power DC, while the others allow both AC low, AC high, and DC.

The fundamental process of charging the battery is the same, and that means that it is not too onerous to convert CHAdeMo chargers to the new designs. The main investment in transformer, power electronics, casing, power routing to the charger, and installation are all preserved, and the cost of new control electronics, software, and plug is relatively minor.

pjwood
Guest
pjwood

No expert, but if CHAdeMo is only on/off fast-DC, you can see its days numbered by the demand-response benefits of J1772 Combo.

Destination charging is a key part of the EV future. Urban parking locations are already experimenting with battery buffering and “big data”, against extreme hourly price spikes in electricity (Example, NYC). Having flexibility with charge rates is the more natural infrastructrue choice, of those supplying the juice.

Jens Kirkeboe
Guest
Jens Kirkeboe

Destination charging? Fast DC is not used for that, we obviously use cheap AC charging points for that. You can’t put up 50 fast DC chargers in a parking lot, that would be hideously expensive.

Ydnas7
Guest
Ydnas7

Currently on the market in Japan are Chademo V2H power stations (Vehicle to Home)
http://www.nissan.co.jp/NEWS/CM/MOVIE/EV_030.html
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/eco/pdfs/2012e_02.pdf
http://global-sei.com/chademo/

so all the talk about powering the house during blackouts or load levelling during high demand/low demand are already commercial products using Chademo.

Chademo – looks like it was designed by an electrical engineer working for a power company.
Tesla SC – looks like it was designed by an electrical engineer working for Apple.
CCS – EU spec – looks like it was designed by a committee targeting EU politicans.
CCS – US spec – looks like it was designed by a committee wanting it to be similar yet different to CCS – EU spec.
CCS – China spec – Chademo style hardware but with CCS messages.

The AC DC – China spec is interesting, it suggests that Chademo hardware will be cheaper/more robust than CCS hardware, ie it uses dedicated communication pins.

FWIW the SAE places great store in that CCS uses a single vehicle inlet which facilitaes coversion EVs using the gas inlet location. But todate the market seems to prefer dedicated EVS and generally the centre front is considered the best place for the socket.

Dan Frederiksen
Guest
Dan Frederiksen

******* are playing with fire.

Ydnas7
Guest
Ydnas7

Amendment 70
page 45 of 50 (from the link)

‘Amendment
Direct Current (DC) fast recharging points for electric vehicles may be alternatively equipped with connectors of Type “CHAdeMO” for a transitional period ending on 31 December 2018.’

If you can’t beat them, then ban them.

Curiosly the ban didn’t seem to extend to Tesla’s supercharging, not that it sets a good precedent for Tesla either.

The Justifiaction is curious

‘Justification
As the Combo technology is not fully ready at the moment and as there are more than 650
CHAdeMO chargers already installed in Europe, with more than 1 000 to be deployed by the end of 2013, it is important to set a time limited transitional period where both systems can be deployed, with the final objective to find a single standard as indicated in the Commission proposal. ‘

I.e.
CHAdeMO is the established technology and must be banned if it is to be stopped. Combo really isn’t ready yet….

Suprise Cat
Guest

The funny thing is, even Germany’s power companies are installing more and more Chademo stations and type 2 AC stations, but have absolute ZERO CCS stations.

http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/de/250036/rwe-effizienz-gmbh/presse-news/pressemeldung/?pmid=4009523

Tony Williams
Guest

The crap will hit the fan in Germany, because the German car makers have already gotten the German government to basically prohibit public funds for CHAdeMO, and to build out a huge Frankenplug-Euro specification network.

Yes, CHAdeMO keeps coming. Not a good place to be a puppet.

Tony Williams
Guest

The top photo is NOT the SAE Frankenplug (with a correctly labeled CHAdeMO), but instead a Mennekes DC plug for Europe. No, you can’t plug that one into a SAE Frankenplug receptacle!!!

Jay Cole
Admin

Yes indeed, good call on the feature pic/thumbnail. Thanks for point that out Tony, will swap that out (…and won’t take anymore evenings off, heeh)

David
Guest
David

The top picture is misleading. It shows the frankenplug farther from the camera making it look smaller when it isn’t.
The frankenplug isn’t the plug proposed for europe anyway, which is supposed to be the whole point of the article.

Goes to show how the SAE frankenplug isn’t a single standard but multiple plugs depending on region.

Lasareath
Guest

I think the charging stations should have 26 different outlets and you bring your own cord and plug into the receptacle that matches your cord.

Then it doesn’t matter if you have a 1990’s electric car or one made in 2025!

tsenre
Guest
tsenre

Thanks Europa. Combo doesn’t exists without the existence and relative success of Chademo. It doesn’t exists without the current chademo’s buyers and piooners. It’s a monopoly disguised of EV standard for inexistent cars. Cars with the same brands that pretends to kill the EV California laws. Thank you from a european EV owner.

tsenre
Guest
tsenre

What’s next? Find all european chademo cars and put them in a scrapyard as EV1?

Colin
Guest
Colin

This is not a ban….repeat not a ban. The EU cannot ban other peoples technology. What they can do is not recognise it? If it doesn’t exist then they dont have to fund it, the ostrich principle. The hard fact is that there are some 700 chargers and thousands of CHAdeMO compatable cars in Europe and zero cars and zero chargers for COMBO. The answer is of course posts with both connectors which allow both standards to be used.

If the Combo camp produce and sell thousands of vehicles then they will gain credibility.

Ydnas7
Guest
Ydnas7

its a ban, the EU can and does ban technology. And automobiles are very subject to bans, http://www.caradvice.com.au/242534/more-eu-nations-may-ban-sale-of-mercedes-benz-vehicles/
its not about funding, its about proscribing/banning

Open-Mind
Guest
Open-Mind

Ironic that those who complain of this government over-reach are probably fans of CAFE over-reach and carbon credit over-reach. What goes around comes around. 🙂

Anton Wahlman
Guest
Anton Wahlman

You nailed it. If you complain about [gov’t regulation that you like to impose on others], you can’t complain when [gov’t regulates something where you’re in the minority and get punished]. What if the government passed a law that said “Batteries are bad, so we hereby ban all electric cars”? Then some people would be all up in arms. You can’t have it both ways when it comes to minority rights.

Anton Wahlman
Guest
Anton Wahlman

Everyone LOVES government intervention… as long as the government does what THEY want it to do. When the government does something they dislike, it’s BAD. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you are in favor of giving the government the power to regulate, you can’t complain when their decisions go against you! People tend not to care about minority rights until… they become part of the minority.

Tony Williams
Guest

Well, obviously Frankenplug is the minority by a HUGE margin, so I welcome the Germans and GM to build that Frankenplug network, like Tesla is doing.

I’ve got lots of time. But, instead it’s far easier and cheaper to try and tear down the successful competition. It looks weak and petty, which tells me a lot about their product.

Jay Cole
Admin

…I wish someone out there had an opinion on this subject, disheartening to see no commenting on it, (=

Mark H
Guest
Mark H

Of the 2000 InsideEV post, this one probably does the least for the advancement of EVs. Not the article itself mind you. Generally speaking, on this site the contributors often add as much info as the article. Something went terribly wrong on this one. Name calling of individuals and equipment? C’mon guys, the topics and this emerging industry need your valued input.

FastCharge
Guest
FastCharge

Mark H,

Thank you for pointing this out. Name calling, personal attacks and such only hurt us a group. To this day, I still haven’t seen a good discussion on the technical merits of each design. People focus on the politics instead. Kind of like watching reality TV instead of the discovery channel. Sure it is entertaining but you don’t really learn anything.

I also wish people would please stop using descriptions like “Frankenplug” It does not help promote EV’s and that should be rule number 1 for all of us. We have a huge task ahead of us to try and convert people from gas to electricity. We are going to have to work together if we want to see it happen in a more meaningful way.

Ydnas7
Guest
Ydnas7

Frankenplug is actually a pretty good aesthetic desciption of the CCS standard. Personally I mentally refer to as the Balkenplug because it attempts to break up the unified global standard into what is effectivley 4 distinct standards CCS EU, CCS USA, CCS China, Chademo. This was simply a delaying tactic by US and German car companies.

A good starter for the technical aspects is
http://cableflux.wordpress.com/2012/11/30/charging-part-aaaagh-charge-ix/

Personally, I think the Renault Chameleon is the best current solution, and a higher power version (akin to Tesla EU spec) is the optimal future solution. ie an AC future.
http://cableflux.wordpress.com/2013/04/14/receptacle-roundup-x-renault-cameleon/

Andyj
Guest
Andyj
Loving the irony of EU Fascism controlled by The Communists. Lets see what we have now in the EU. Leafs everywhere! And when they wish to top up they are greeted with a “type-2” connector which max’s out at 7KW, three phase. The control pins are identical to it’s lowly 15amp J1772-2 connector so the Leaf gets up to 18 miles in an hours charging. Where the full compliance cars can do a full charge in four hours. It’s plenty fast for an overnight charge (if the supermarket allows) or enough to get you home from the shops but its a toy! . The new EU standard cars that are offered for sale, i.e. Renault and BMW i3 get this mennekes-2 socket with no DC fast charging which gives Leaf owners a recharge speed of 140 miles in an hour and the EU cars dawdling at 25 miles an hour for at least the next 5 years. . Remind me people the EU laws about unfair competition. In law the EU will be leaping on the sword of their own making. . Chademo’s popularity has beaten the Fascists fair and square. To create a standards war will only destroy the… Read more »