EPA Chief Wheeler Says EV Standards Are “Social Engineering”


The decades-long battle over vehicle emissions standards is heating up again.

As I’m writing this post, two of the most important and powerful players in the EV world are meeting across the hall in a small conference room at the Four Seasons Hotel in San Francisco. Behind closed doors, Andrew Wheeler, the U.S. EPA administrator for the Trump Administration, and Mary Nichols Chair of the California Air Resources Board are discussing the decades-long battle over vehicle emissions standards.

Wheeler and Nichols are presenters at the BloombergNEF San Francisco Summit on mobility. Wheeler, who took the stage earlier, restated the Trump Administration’s position against California’s right to establish zero-emissions mandates. “California is only looking at energy efficiency. We are also looking at highway safety and getting older cars off the road,” said Wheeler. “We would like to see a 50-state deal,” he said – presumably the topic he is discussing with Mary Nichols at this moment.

Wheeler was interviewed on stage with Stephen Munro, a policy analyst with BloombergNEF. When Munro asked Wheeler about the future of the $7,500 federal tax credit for consumers buying electric vehicles, he replied, “I don’t think the agency should be picking fuel types,” said Wheeler.

“We are looking at the market data about what consumers want,” said Wheeler. “We are not trying to social engineer the choice of fuel.”

Wheeler argued that the cost for automakers to meet existing fuel economy standards, such as electric cars, is measured in the billions. And that those costs are passed on to consumers. Wheeler believes that the Trump administration’s proposals to revoke Obama-era fuel economy standards and California’s ZEV mandates would have a negligible effect on carbon reductions.

“Our proposal would almost get the same reductions,” said Wheeler. “The current co2 reductions would go beyond just those 13 states [following California rules] to all 50 states.” Wheeler said that auto industry officials met in his office to inform him that the Trump Administration’s numbers are more stringent.

“It’s not the EPA’s role to promote a particular type of fuel, such as electricity,” he said. Wheeler was challenged about China taking the lead in the emerging EV technology. “We should not be dictating what automobile companies should be producing or what kind of vehicles Americans should buy,” he said. “It’s not grounds for concerns for the EPA.”

We are unlikely to get a complete picture of what Wheeler and Nichols discussed today. Before stepping into the meeting, Wheeler said, “We both want to see improvements in air quality and co2. “But this is not a two-way negotiation,” he said, referring to the federal government’s ability to revoke California’s waiver that allows the state to establish its own air standards.

Wheeler repeated that the Trump administration’s is concerned about the price of cars and highway safety — not only energy efficiency.

“When I took this job, the president asked me to deregulate to create more jobs,” said Wheeler, a former coal industry lobbyist.

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194 Comments on "EPA Chief Wheeler Says EV Standards Are “Social Engineering”"

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Isn’t this the same administration that was pushing for using the Defense Production Act to prop up a moribund and increasingly obsolete coal industry? Is that not picking fuel types?

Bought and paid for by the Koch Heads!

Koch suckers.

You mean just like the entire Democratic party and “climate change is gonna kill us all in 12 years” hysteria is bought and paid for by Sorry Soros?

Keep reading Breitbart.

Being proven now with polar vortex during the week that killed 10-20 people and 60s during the weekend. Infrastructure were not built to withstand drastic Change of weather

First off, weather has nothing to do with climate.
Secondly, the temps that hit Chicago, northern Illinois were the same temps that we had EVERY YEAR in the 60s/70s in Feb. for 2-3 weeks long. And the infrastructure was just fine.

Weather is a result of climate change….
When talking about climate change its about changes in long-term averages of daily weather. In most places, weather can change from minute-to-minute, hour-to-hour, day-to-day, and season-to-season. Climate, however, is the average of weather over time and space.

BoltEV: Translation: I flunked science.
Too bad your dad didn’t raise you in a Democratic state with good teachers.

If you didnt know 7 MILION people DIE each year due to air polution,,would you be against EVs IF it was someone in your family ?

for Bolt? I doubt it.

No, more like the “Democrats are going to kill our economy saving the planet, we are being invaded by Mexico, voter fraud (unless we do it) , deficits are bad (unless republicans are in office), and limited government (unless we do it) hysteria that republicans keep pushing.

No, more like Republicans are trying to keep our economy in the carbon age when the rest of the world is racing to the sustainable energy age. We are falling behind in technology and innovation every day we persist in over funding old technology. Look at all the innovation spawned by investment in NASA in the 60s and 70s. The free market already voted against coal, but Trump is trying to intervene. Bad capitalist! Keep burning coal and oil if you want to kill the economy.

Some day you will realize you are bought but not paid for by the Koch Klowns. Nobody (except maybe Breitbart) said we die in 12 years. Science says we have 12 years to get serious about changes to stop or mitigate the effects of climate change. After that we will see feedback loops that will make the atmosphere unlivable for humans.

What a jackass.

If 1% of what people said was paid for by Soros, he’d be broke.

Where is the permanent block button when you need it?

I think you’re talking about George Soros. I didn’t know who that was, but I looked him up, and he seems like a super awesome guy. He’s spent huge amounts of his wealth with helping minorities, teaching tolerance, and encouraging democracy. Why would you call him “Sorry?”

Because apparently having a social conscience is a bad thing now.

Also he’s Jewish. Some people have a problem with that.

Not at all. The Daily Stormer’s type love jews.

Aren’t you supposed to be posting over at your daily stormer?

Natural selection stop working with humans, you are the example of why we’ll be extinct. Pure stupidity

“I don’t think we should be picking fuel types”
But, they do with MASSIVE Tax Cuts and Subsidies to the Oil Industry in every step of oil production. The drill bit gets a credit, the oil tower gets a tax cut, the pipeline gets a tax cut, the refinery gets a tax cut, and the US Navy protects their shipping lanes.

The US has been “picking” oil for the last 75 years.

Is this guy Stupid, or is he just Pretending to be stupid. And by the way, global warming is hitting Southern States Hard. Those are RED, REPUBLICAN STATES. Don’t let stupid in government or get your home wiped out. List of US Fossil Fuel subsidies from recent G20 report: – Expensing of Intangible Drilling Costs – Percentage Depletion for Oil and Natural-Gas Wells – Domestic Manufacturing Deduction for Fossil Fuels – Two Year Amortization Period for Geological & Geophysical Expenditures – Percentage Depletion for Hard Mineral Fossil Fuels – Expensing of Exploration and Development Costs for Hard Mineral Fuels – Capital Gains Treatment for Royalties of Coal – Deduction for Tertiary Injectents – Exception to Passive-Loss Limitation for Working Interests in Oil and Natural-Gas Properties – Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit (EOR) Credit – Marginal Wells Credit – Corporate Tax Income Exemption for Fossil-Fuel Publicly Traded Partnerships – Excise Tax Exemption for Crude Oil Derived from Tar Sands – Royalty-Exempt Beneficial Use of Fuels – Royalty-Free Flaring and Venting of Natural Gas – Liability Cap on Natural Resource Damage – Subsidies for fossil fuels used in the residential sector – Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP) – 50 year amortization schedule… Read more »

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“Chesapeake Bay’s Tangier Island a Symbol of How Rising Seas Will …
Sep 7, 2018 – But its inhabitants argue that it’s erosion, not climate change. … As Tangier Island, in the Chesapeake Bay, sinks and the surrounding water rises, its marshland is …. The island came out strongly in favor of Trump in 2016.”

Sounds about right.

They will destroy themselves, and the rest of us with their gullibility.
Right Wing Hate Radio, shock, Propaganda Works.

It’s technically Coal Tycoon Bob Murray; his company drafted multiple E.O. to withdraw from the Paris agreement…

6 drafted E.O.’s were delivered to the Oval Office.


That is one of the few good things that Trump has done.
Paris, like Kyoto, is worthless.

youre right! Its terrible😡

It’s like the blind leading the dumb.

Hope California stays strong in this fight. I think highway safety is no concern because cars are already very safe and getting safer every year. Just seems like a silly argument.

Price probably won’t change much. The switch to electric cars doesn’t happen overnight. It’s a gradual switch.

No word about fuel efficiency from him. What does it say about him. And a former coal lobbyist. So he’s probably in denial about climate change as well as Trump. Total desaster for the EPA.

50% of the cars sold in America, are sold in California.
They have a RIGHT to cleaner air.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

CA should raise gas taxes more and also add taxes on those “Precious metals” used in catalytic converters for recycling fees. 😛
Also increase fees for SMOG tests and Certs.
While were at it increase costs for refineries and costs of land use/property taxes on lands where gas stations or crude are stored on………lol

No need, renewables and EVs are getting to be cheaper than fossil fuels and gas cars anyway.

Some things you don’t need to do…but should!

That doesn’t make for good policy. If there is no real need to do it and it’s inevitable anyhow why are we spending so much money on credits?

No need to hit consumers. Just put a massive “new vehicle” purchase tax on ICE-based cars. Watch what the manufacturers do when their new car sales tank. They couldn’t even last three months, let alone long enough for litigation to play out.

Neither would the economy. You probably don’t care, because you have your job and figure you’ll be fine no matter what, but car sales is very, very, very important to our country’s financial well being. It’s very, very, very, important to people’s employment and by extension their lives. In case you forgot, we bailed out the car industry ten years ago or so just so it wouldn’t bring the whole country down. That was a smart move then and your suggestion is a poor idea now.

The thing is, anything done to encourage electric car growth will help California’s economy because they have the factory that produces more EV’s than any other. California can do fine without shipping in dirty cars from outside the state.

Cars are no longer a viable solution for principal transportation. Here in Los Angeles county, the daily freeway commute is a snail-race. We need convenient mass transit.

How’s that hitting the consumer . Then can just be an EV

You know the lobbyist wouldn’t let that happen.

when people make sensical statements in sarcasm…I am here in Cali and would welcome all those things! Something must be done about wasting all those precious metals in cats…how about designing cars that DON’T NEED THEM. (also, find a better way to make batteries and controllers without rare earths.)

That is not true

Think he meant 50% of US electric cars were in California.

Correction. California has the MOST new car sales in America by a wide margin, but it’s not 50%.

I think you are working with the wrong numbers.
U.S. Auto Sales Totaled 17.25-Million in 2017, California New vehicle registrations reached 2.047 million units in 2017
So California is about 12% of US car and truck sales.

By State sales, they lead the nation by a wide margin.

I’m all for highway safety but should that be a part of EPA’s mandate? I don’t think so. Seems like a thinly veiled endorsement for big cars.

Exactly. The EPA has nothing to do with highway safety. These people are so stupid, they don’t even realize when they’re establishing the public record for blocking what they’d like to do. This is the same guy who just approved poisoning drinking water, so it shouldn’t surprise anyone that he is an evil piece of ….

(switch to electric cars doesn’t happen overnight. It’s a gradual switch Join the discussion)

I bought my first hybrid 19 years ago, first electric 9 years ago just how long is gradual in your opinion?

It’s so gawd damn corrupt, it’s awful.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

that makes us just like other countries……..LMAO

Sorry to say, but you are in a league of your own here.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

No worries, I’m always an outlier here.
Nobody seems to want to admit we’re just as screwey as other countries.
We may be slightly better but come on man, look at out elected officials bickering about what they will and won’t support even though when they were rallying up votes they say one thing but now in office they decline to do so because someone else is pushing the issue.

Look at Pelosi and Trump, couldn’t even get a date to do the SOTU address………LMAO

Show me the slightly better part, but do it without the fake both side-ism that you toss in at the end about how Pelosi is somehow wrong for telling the man child he can’t shut everything down and still get his TV time.

Slightly better my @$$. America hasn’t been in the top 10 since the 80s.

When a Repub loses an argument, it’s always ‘both sides do it’.

Both sides don’t have AOC, Elizabeth Warren and Burnie Sanders. The only politicians who represent the AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

WTF? Where the hell did I say Pelosi was wrong?
Quit trying to put words in peoples mouths.

It’s exactly what you try to do. “Nobody seems to want to admit we’re just as screwey as other countries.”

The Nordic Countries don’t allow uneducated, old, billionaires who control an oil monopoly to control government or a political party.
You don’t have a party that represents you.
You have a party that represents KOCH INC.

The blame is laid at the feet of the Roberts Court, the US SUPREME Court gave the rich the power over government by allowing Citizens United: Corporates to Flood Elections with Money.

Nordic countries are also gradually making themselves less Nordic so dont expect that for long

Make that two. US isn’t perfect, we have corruption just like in other countries. Unfortunately, people on left think there’s no corruption in left, people on right think the same for their team.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

Exactly! +100!

In the US, we prefer not to use the “C” word when referencing our sponsored politicians. The preferred PC term, in and around Capitol Hill, is “Super PACs”, and not the 100 kWh + battery type!

And there it is…

BOTHSIDEISM in plain view.

In America we have the HATE party that doesn’t think, and the Democrats.

I mean had Obama COLLUDED with Russia with 27 members of his staff, he’d have been tar’d and feathered.
But, Crook Trump gets a pass.
They Love Republican CRIME.

They deem to see it as an accomplishment

Two Russian trolls working in tandem using typical Russian troll tactics. Guess who they are. Because of Russia we can’t have nice things.

There’s usually one more here. Where is he today?

When do find corruption we don’t mind locking them up not like you guys

No, even Saudi Arabia is investing heavily in renewable energy.
The U.S. is at the bottom of the barrel.

Something like 5 Gigawatts are going in in the next three years in a Desert Country.

No, unlike where you are from in Russia, we don’t murder journalists, blow up commercial airliners, or poison defectors with nerve agents. We also don’t have a murderous dictator who stole over $200 billion from the people of Russia for his personal piggy bank.

Yes, the word “corruption” is very noticeably missing from nearly all the news coverage and commentary on the workings of Washington D.C. The corruption — and I don’t mean just among the Orange One and his gang of criminals, I mean among congresscritters — has become so pervasive that, to a large extent, it’s now seen as normal and accepted.

Where are the muckrakers of previous generations?

Finally got rid of Scott Pruitt only to replace him with a coal lobbyists Wheeler that never seen a fossil fuel he didn’t like.
Pruitt gave out exceptions allowing what they call small refinery’s ( which were at times billion dollar oil companies) from having to meet the law and blend 10% ethanol into a gallon of gasoline. This meant hundreds of millions more gallons of gasoline was used at the expense of farmers, ethanol refinery’s and the environment.
E15 has been legal for sale for years but the oil industry claims that they can’t blend anymore because of gasoline demand.
However having E15 would allow almost 5% more ethanol to be used in place of gasoline year round.
Somehow Grassley and Iowa voters still believe Trump supports E15, this couldn’t be further from the truth.
Legislation has to be signed by this Friday. Iowa GOP voters were lied to the past two years.
Will have to see what happens in the next few days.

Ethanol sucks for the environment and is a stupid giveway for a single state. If he kills ethanol, it will be the one (accidental) thing Trump did right.

Well said!

Ethanol is better than oil and it’s only a transition fuel

Yup. Government subsidies for ethanol as fuel was well intentioned, but the “law of unintended consequences” has kicked in, in a major way. Diverting corn production to ethanol has significantly raised global prices for corn, which has had a significant impact on the price of food in third-world countries, which in turn has contributed to famine, starvation, and political unrest in many places.

If the current administration ends that… well, as they say, “It’s an ill wind that blows nobody good.”

There was a spike in mid 2000s, but now prices are back down. So yes, it created a temporary spike, but now corn yield per acre is up more than what they use for ethanol.

The work on biofuels has continued for many years. Corn and soybeans are not the only sources for ethanol or biofuels. Advanced biofuels from animal fats, algae, wooded plants, etc. all these are needed. Electric vehicles are only part of the solution we still have ships, planes, trains etc. that need a cleaner fuel. Let’s not think of a single solution. It’s going to require attacking the Climate Change problem with everything available.

The issue with corn prices is, if they’re any lower, farmers can’t afford to grow corn. The price of fuel, fertilizer, and insurance has gone crazy, so if corn prices go down, farmers go under. That won’t help anyone.

Too bad we can’t get electrified farm equipment. Run diesel at steadier state and all equipment electrically instead of either hydraulic or pto.

Ethanol has a lot of people hating it without really understanding the issue. Please site some sources that aren’t overly biased (you will find a lot on either side).

That would be so true, in nearly any context, except for a comparison to…burning petroleum.

It’s needed to reduce emissions. Some people like to breathe.

Wait, Trump lied?

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

wait, any politician lied?!?!?!?

Trump made lying an extreme sport. He’s a terrible liar nobody believes anything he says. His supporters know Trump’s lying, but like Mexico is gonna pay for the wall. They make excuses for his lies.
All the President’s in our history haven’t told as many lies as Trump has in the first year.
I probably could say on any given day.

Trump was just kidding around! Honest!

Our MAGA man is just too busy, wading waist deep, trying to “Drain The Swamp”, while trying to keep his pants from going up in smoke!

Trump’s tweet said, “The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive.”

Trump doesn’t lie, he’s just a big kidder!😉

The Koch’s fought the farmers and won.
The winning against the rest of America too.

Sometimes we need mob rule to get ride of billionaires that want to do harm

Wheeler says we shouldn’t be dictating to auto companies the type of fuel to use.
Yet Trump, Pruitt and Wheeler all support dictating to utilities that they should use coal and nuclear before renewable energy to generate electricity. They also say that because coal and nuclear can’t compete on price, that they would allow utilities to charge rate payers more for using coal and nuclear.
Under the guise of energy security just like tariffs on steel imports is because of defense security.

I have not heard the Orange One utter a single word in favor of nuclear power. If he did, I might be forced to say something nice about the idiot wannabe dictator.

GE hasn’t bribed him yet, he’s still waiting…

HAHA!! Yeah – GE so far has no takers for its new Boiling-Water-Reactor design. Even Westinghouse’s Ap1000 only has one up and working model in China – the 2 being built in the states are way, way overbudget – something quite amazing for what was reported as a ‘Cost Reduced’ Reactor.

China has resurrected the older PWR Westinghouse designs so much that the companies have been called – tongue in cheek – “Eastinghouse’s”, hahaha.

The Russians, Chinese, and Koreans lately are the only ones who can build Nuclear plants on budget. I would assume they are just more realistic as to the complications they know they are going to run into – and don’t worry too much whether it is the absolute low-cost energy producer. Which of course is much more important in the states. The 2- Ap1000’s being built do not make any economic sense in this country. So although they are ‘interesting’ from a industrial perspective – the ratepayers may not be that enthusiastic when they are asked to actually pay their high construction cost (about a 6 cents / kwh rate increase across-the-board).

“Wheeler says we shouldn’t be dictating to auto companies the type of fuel to use.” unless it has something to do with Environmental protections which it does 100% obviously.

I think utilities should charge more for nuclear (expensive but worth it for zero greenhouse baseline power 24/7). And coal burning (i.e. not metallurgical) a capital felony. Some day it will be; future generations will be repulsed by that as much as slavery.

We don’t have anyplace right now to store all the radioactive waste that will be hear for 300,000 years.
I guess everyone has already forgotten about Fukushima. It’s going to cost billions and billions to clean it up and take 50 years.
This was the worst but we’ve also had Chernobyl and Three Mile Island.
Take to people that will pay higher rates for the advanced nuclear plants that were under construction in Georgia and South Carolina. Vogel and V.C. Summers.
Units 3and 4 and both plants have stopped work after being 10 billion or more over budget.

What’s wrong with radiation, a little cesium polluting 50% of the Pacific Ocean?

He’s right that not his agency

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

” “I don’t think the agency should be picking fuel types,”

Doesn’t the Dooooosh know about the US Petroleum/Energy subsidies?

That’s department of Energy mission

Like Wheeler cares. He is crowing about highway safety which is not the EPA’s mission.

Why not do some of what we do in Norway?
A small tax on every fossil car depending of emissions/MPG..that way BEVs dont Get any tax

Republicans loathe taxes. One of their core things is to not introduce new taxes.

Yeah Trump really hates the estate tax that only effect someone with over 11 million. Only effected about 3,000 people last year.
Yeah the GOP has to sign a pledge to Grover Norquist to not raise taxes. You have a war against terror in 2001. How are you gonna pay for it. Keep it off the books and cut taxes.

Republicans sure like deficits and debt!

Yeah after Bush run up all the Bill’s from the Mideast wars, cutting taxes twice, letting corporations bring offshore money back into the country for close to no taxes. Was in power when when the recession started in 2007 and Leman Brothers collapsed in October 2008.
Then when Obama is handed a trillion dollar deficit.
The GOP start becoming the deficit hawks, for the entire 8 years Obama was President.
Now that Trump is President the GOP deficit hawks are extinct or will they return when a Democrat is President.

Except when the taxes are called tariffs. Then they are AOK.

As much as I’d like to see that, it would never happen. In fact, I believe the only way it happened in Norway is because the tax for gas vehicles was already present before the EVs came around.

A few years ago, I would have been concerned. By now, this discussion is inconsequential, IMO, seeing that the industry moves to electric cars irrespective of Mr. Trump’s stance, simply because EVs are the superior technology by any measure. Look at coal. The downward trajectory has not been affected by Mr. Trump’s intervention.

Only because Trump hasn’t gotten his way. Remember he want utilities to use coal or nuclear before renewable energy and pass the higher cost to the consumer.

No, I don’t remember him promoting nuclear power at all; just coal. If he ever did actually say something in favor of nuclear power, then I guess I missed it, and I might have been forced to actually say something positive about the person who is doing everything he possibly can to ruin this country as fast as possible.

His Energy Czar Rick Perry was responsible for trying to implement it. It included coal and nuclear under the guise of energy security.
Look up Rick Perry Energy Security I’m sure you’ll find articles about it.

Exactly, let them lower fuel economy standards and make fossil cars even less competitive. Who cares at this point, it will still accellerate EV adoption.

“We are looking at the market data about what consumers want,” said Wheeler.

Consumers want a livable climate as well.

You’d think so… but then they keep buying gas guzzlers and oversized trucks.

Got to “compensate” ya know😉

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

I’ve heard so many soccer/baseball moms say about their SUV purchase that they fell “Safer”.

Then later in the year they 8itch about the cost of gas.

Exactly. Auto makers have been very successful in psychological manipulation of American women, to make them feel “unsafe” on the roads, and plant the idea in their minds that only big, tough-looking SUVs are safe to drive.

I used to wonder why SUVs were designed to look “mean”. Even the Tesla Model X — quite clearly marketed to “soccer moms” — has a meaner “face” on it than the Model S does.

Well, I don’t wonder any longer. It’s marketing psychology used to get people to buy bigger, more expensive cars; and in the U.S. it has been remarkably successful. 🙁

Most on the right don’t want a livable climate if it means they are the change in any small way.

Right. Protecting the environment is fine as long as it doesn’t inconvenience them, or cost them more than a few dollars a year.

Even animals aren’t self-destructive enough to sh*t in their own nest. We humans, sadly, are not that wise.

That’s what works with their healthcare plan too, get sick, die quickly.

So as Tesla is 80% of US BEV market by number of sales and 93% of BEV market by USD volume and Tesla is now profitable how does it cost the legacy auto makers billions in USD to combined do only 7% of the BEV market as measured by USD value. LOL

I costs them dearly because they are making so FEW cars.
Tesla would not be profitable either selling only 18000 Model 3s in the US in 2018 like GM did with the Bolt.

“EPA doesn’t pick fuel types” = bowing down before the petrochemical industry.

Explain to him these can be coal-powered, and he’ll come around.

“When I took this job, the president asked me to deregulate to create more jobs,”

That’s not the job of the EPA, @hole.

It’s to protect the environment.

So the president told you NOT to do your job and you accepted.
So you should be sued for the damage.

Someone should sue the EPA for that comment in that state he commented in

Greedy idiots!

This is how you Make America Great Again®

“Wheeler argued that the cost for automakers to meet existing fuel economy standards, such as electric cars, is measured in the billions. And that those costs are passed on to consumers.”

So if those costs are passed on to consumers, why do the car companies care? Supposedly lower sales?

He does have a point – consumers shouldn’t be pushed into a particular fuel type. But they shouldn’t have to choose over breathing clean air or dirty air.

Disagree. Trotting out “consumer choice” as some absolute right is a meaningless argument. If the water supply is poisoned but consumers have the “choice” of buying bottled water, is that in defense of consumer choice?

There are lots of choices that should not be offered. We can’t go backwards and change our dependency on fossil fuels, but we can change the present and future.

And meanwhile, Section 179, or the “Hummer Tax Loophole” is still around and allows vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating between 6,000 lbs. and 14,000 lbs to get a deduction of up to $25,000. Also social engineering, no Mr. Wheeler?

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous


Don’t tell but the Tesla Model X also qualifies for it…..

Now you did it!
You weren’t supposed to mention that!

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous


If the money is there, why shouldn’t Tesla take advantage of it too. But I do agree there should be no subsidy encouraging people to buy truck weight vehicles for personal transportation.

“Wheeler argued that the cost for automakers to meet existing fuel economy standards, such as electric cars, is measured in the billions. And that those costs are passed on to consumers. ”
When tRump rolled back the mileage standards because it would add $2,000 to the price of a car, no one spoke up about the additional $6000 it would cost the car owner over the average cars life.
His investors, the Kochs, sell the gas.

There is a middle ground potential to get moderate CAFE standards applied to all 50 states without blowing EVs out of the water. They won’t be as aggressive (unachievable) as the standards the previous administration set to go into affect after they left office but EVs can’t be stopped by the EPA like this. They have too many unrelated positives. Deep breaths people.

There was nothing unachievable about the previous standards. The only problem was that they favored large SUVs and Trucks.

The standards of the Obama administration certainly weren’t unachievable. In fact, with just about anyone other than an utterly corrupt con man* as president, those standards would almost certainly have been further tightened by now.

*Two words for anyone who questions that the Orange One is a con man: “Trump University”

Don sum EdgeUmication at the now Deflunked t-Rump U.

The Art OF The Deal!

The great irony in all this is that it benefits Tesla the most if traditional car makers get their wish for lowered EPA standards.


Become EPA standards and environment aside, EVs (like Tesla makes) are a better car to own than an ICE in almost every regard.

Therefore, traditional car makers backing off on aggressively transitioning to EVs to allow them to compete against a quickly growing Tesla would result in traditional car makers loosing market share to a Tesla as a function of how quick a Tesla is able to expand production capacity.

It’s no secret many traditional car makers would prefer to be minimally participating in the EV revolution which perhaps may ironically accelerate the EV revolution become there will be fewer half-baked EVs that make it to production.

The transition to EVs is going to continue with or without the participation of traditional car makers.

Ran out the edit timer…

Typo: “Become EPA standards“ should read “Because EPA standards”

What about Trumps Tariffs who are those costs past on too, hmm.
Any Trump appointee to the EPA is by definition a joke, look at his last appointment to the position.
CA, and their askance view of the auto industry is here to stay, this current administration is counter trend and on the way out.
Just what exactly does qualify this guy to head the EPA, formerly being a lobbyist for coal. He has zero credibility, and no legal standing for his point of view. Making cars safer by making them dirtier seems a bit contradictory, but then you can say whatever you want and be wrong most of the time, like this guy.

Wheeler the Coal Mole.
He’s so cute.

Holy Mole-E!

“We are not trying to social engineer the choice of fuel.”

Yes, heaven forbid that the Environmental Protection Agency would actually favor rules to protect the environment and help reduce global warming. 🙄

I’m going to be soooooooo glad when January 2021 comes, and Trump with his gang of criminals and oil-igarchs gets kicked out of the White House. Too bad the whole gang won’t get kicked out even if the Orange One himself is impeached and kicked out before then. 🙁

Wheeler is lying Like his boss. First prices of vehicles have gone due to legacies going full blown SUV and trucks. Second Trucks and and SUVs are heavier and needs to more energy to move causing more inefficient engines to move these beast. Third and final is safety is not EPA authority but should be under NTHSB. As no 2 reflects on safety since the heavier you are the more damage you inflect

The main driver for higher vehicle prices is cheap credit. Cheap credit brings future stokes demand. Higher demand, higher prices.

Classic conservative vs liberal viewpoints.
Majority opinion wins (via voting). The planet only survives if the people agree it should.

No i think the real argument is on economy and health. Posing it as classic politics is trivializing. Government is elected to have wisdom and leadership. If we wanted majority opinion we would not need congress.

So let me get this straight….the Environmental Protection Agency’s job under Republicans is not to pick fuel types but to create jobs?

What do republicans have against clean air and water? Why are they so hellbent on turning the US into a third world country?

I caught that too. Talk about convenient double speak! Since when does the EPA’s job description include increasing employment?

Trump stated that before he was even elected. God help us.

Those statements can and will be used against him when the lawsuits start. A regulatory agency can’t just decide not to serve its purpose, let alone change its purpose.

Another Trump idiot.

A Trump buddy

As a lobbyist he is part of the swamp.

Ironic isn’t it?

Ohwa tana siis. Ohwa tana siis. (Faster) Ohwa tana siis. Ohwa tana siis. (Faster) OH WHAT AN ASS HE IS,!!

Word on the street says Wheeler is a psychopath

This right wing charge of “social engineering” has to be one of their most asinine memes of a lot of asinine right wing memes. Outlawing murder is “social engineering” – the same charge could leveled at most of the laws on the books. Civilized people think that allowing people who kill other people to roam free is undesirable so we pass laws to lock murderers up. That’s “social engineering”. Big f***ing deal. Voluminous scientific evidence has established that dumping CO₂ into the atmosphere is the primary driver for raising mean global temperatures and ocean acidification. It is therefore contributing to rising sea levels, encroaching desertification of the world’s most fertile agricultural regions, and destruction of ocean habitats. Pursuing policies that help prevent those consequences is “social engineering”. Hell yes it is – what of it?

“We are not trying to social engineer the choice of fuel”
Thank goodness Elon Musk and folks at VW, BMW, Nissan and other forward-thinking automakers know how to social engineer choices. It’s called make EV’s so compelling, nobody will make the choice to drive a fossil car.

Isn’t it the ENVIRONMENT Protection Agency and not the ENERGY-PRODUCERS Protection Agency?

The lunatics are still in charge of the asylum it would seem. how are you ever going to get an unbiased EPA when they install a fox in the hen house.

Not gonna happen. BS and funny numbers will stop in court.

Epa should be picking the least polluting. #electric. #itsfaster #&cheaper

I bet Wheeler got his wheels well oiled up!

“We are also looking at highway safety” – What? It isn’t the EPA’s job to worry about highway safety. We have the NHTSA for that. Stay in your lane Mr. Wheeler and protect the environment.

Good, can we stop giving the rich $7500 to buy ultra luxury cars normal people couldn’t hope to afford? The arrogance of these California bureaucrats boggles the mind. Stop and consider for a moment that the average salary in America is $61k, not $161k. Very few Americans pay $7500 in income tax, so very few have any incentive to buy an electric car to get the price reduced. Further more, all the regulations and mandates making cars more expensive just means more people holding onto older cars, which drives up the used car values, which pushes people into older and older vehicles. It’s a vicious cycle that ends with families like my own and all the middle class people I know buying 10+ year old cars because it’s what we can afford. You want safer, more efficient cars on the road? Make them as cheap as possible. It’s simple economics. With cheap new cars on offer, used car prices go down, and thus the age of used cars also goes down as more and more old cars are able to be scrapped and replaced with newer models that trickle down faster as the prices of brand new cars decreases. Right… Read more »

Using the new 2018 tax brackets, a person making $61k per year as a married filing jointly would pay $8197.50 in taxes, so yes, they would qualify for the $7500 Fed tax credit. You might want to do some research before making bogus claims.

Yes, they should make inexpensive EVs, but right now the economics don’t support that. They can’t make cheap EVs because the batteries cost too much. The only ones that they can make cheap have <125 mile range and very few people will buy those. So the automakers make what they can sell without losing money, which is the higher end EVs. That's what a business is in business for… making profit.

Of course it’s social engineering. That’s what governments DO! They want more people to own houses, so the exempt the mortgage interest from income tax. They want us to invest more, so they tax the capital gains from investments at a much lower rate than income. They want you to stop smoking, so they tax cigarettes at a high rate. They want us to drive zero emission vehicles (or at least, USED to want this) so they have the tax credit for plug-in vehicles. They want us to continue to be able to buy American-made vehicles versus China taking over automotive manufacturing (another reason for the tax credit).

What Chinese vehicle is sold in the US.

From BI on 11/27/18,

“General Motors confirmed that the Buick LaCrosse, Cadillac CT6, and Cadillac XTS will continue to be produced at its factory in Shanghai, China.”

2019 Buick Envision. $31,995, 2018 Cadillac CT6 Plug-in Hybrid. $75,095, 2018 Volvo S60 Inscription. $36,950.

Here’s the Bloomberg interview:
I advise not to watch on a full stomach as the stink of the BS will make you queasy.
His arguments are so full of holes that you could drive a Truck through them.
70% of Americans are worried about money, a lot, but this guy wants you to go out and buy a new car, because it’s safer (questionable) and it’s good for the economy. Oh Brother.

Yeah the whole GOP is for the rich and corporations. They couldn’t care less about the middle class. Paul Ryan spent his whole time in office wanting to cut taxes and entitlements. Social Security and Medicare
However Paul Ryan and the entire GOP never about there entitlements.
Paul Ryan left office at 55 and will receive a pension of $150,000 a year and a gold health care plan.
Paul Ryan didn’t even have to rent an apartment in D.C. because he could sleep in his office shower in the Congressman’s gym.
He said he couldn’t afford an apartment even with a $175,000 salary and his wife being an attorney.
Unbelievable that GOP talks about cutting entitlements on poor and middle class while they keep there’s. Plus where else can you work where you get to decide how much of a raise you get.

Paul Ryan is just one individual, in a group that is known in D.C. as the “Couch Caucus”.

Congressional Staffers have to resort to using duct tape to maintain rodent control, while “We the People” neglect to use The Fourteenth Amendment, in being able to effectively sort out the larger 535 Congress Critter infestation.


Earning $175,000 a year and they can’t afford to get apartment in D.C.
How many pipefitters, electricians, carpenters, have had to work out of state for months or years and maintain a residence for family at home.
GOP Congressman and there entitlements, they hate entitlements except there own. Greedy and cheap.

If it’s unbelievable that you would have a coal lobbyist in charge of the EPA.
Trump wants David Bernhardt and oil lobbyist to head up the Department of Interior. Just got rid if Ryan Zinke the previous head that used taxpayers money like an entitlement. Zinke is under investigation for a dozen crimes from Puerto Rico to using military planes for his personal travel itinerary.
Ryan rode into D.C. on a horse he should have been far and feathered on the way out.

I’ll take clumsy social engineering over ruthless multi-million dollar marketing schemes.

Another big money blockhead from the Orange Dictator’s cohorts. Absolutely no sense of duty towards the future generation, just more profits for Old Money.

No Country in recorded History has ever regulated itself into prosperity; The EPA, if too overbearing with regulations, will advance the jack-booted thuggery of Gov’t dependence on the Taxpayer and their monies while driving down the use of personal transportation.
Let us not forget: the Automobile IS the very essence of Freedom; the Bus & Tube (subway) are forms of Public transport at the Public’s expense.

The EV Industry should rise and fall with the free Market and its demand or supply offerings – Soviet-style Public ownership of an “Individual’s” personal vehicle is rather Stalin-istic.

What the Santa Clause-style Gov’t giveth the same Santa Clause-style Gov’t will taketh

Yeah let the fossil fuel industry give up there subsidies. Over100 years the government gave them crutches let them walk on there own.

Too bad Wheeler-less’s being lazy enough to NOT read the Sunday NYT article 2/3/2019 on the Permian Basin and see this quote by a CEO of major wildcat driller: “OPEC changed the price of poker and the Permian had the best hand,” said Dale Redman, chief executive of ProPetro, one of the basin’s biggest fracking service companies. “They unleashed our creativity. They forced us to do things better and cheaper.”

Talk about Social engineering tunnel-vision and hypocracy!

I must be the only republican who is in favor of the electric revolution of the automobile. And I have driven a chevy volt for the past 3 years. I grew up in the gas business as my father owned a gas station and repair shop. Wake up people ! The combustion engine has provided us for over 100 years. Very few inventions last that long. Time is up and long overdo for a new invention to move us forward. And the electric car is that invention.

It’s the difference between the politicians in Congress and White House, compared to mainstream folks. I know a bunch of conservatives that drive hybrids and EVs, for any number of reasons – from pollution concerns and global warming to TOC.

Well than why vote GOP this isn’t Reagan’s GOP.

Unfortunately, none of this is surprising. Not long before he left, Bannon clearly and unequivocably stated in an interview that the goal of this administration is “to deconstruct the administrative state”. It is no accident that DeVos, Pruitt, Perry, etc., were appointed to the agencies and departments that they were – it was deliberate, because the current administration wants these institutions to fail, by introducing these festering fools to rot the very structure of these agencies from the inside out.

Many here have pointed out the fallacies in this idiot’s statements – but nobody picked up on the fact that deregulation does not necessarily lead to more jobs. If anything, the opposite is true – you need investments into innovating solutions to meet the regulations, and you need people to do that, plus people to implement the solutions, and people to enforce the regulations! You also need people for recycling used items. The list goes on.

We need more windmills and less blacklung deaths.