Electric Porsche Pajun Getting Readied As Tesla Model S Fighter

NOV 19 2014 BY ERIC LOVEDAY 77

The first true Tesla-fighter is apparently on its way and it’ll come from one of the most recognizable marques in the automotive world: Porsche.

According to Autocar:

2014 Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid - Pajun Is A Baby Version Of The Panamera

2014 Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid – Pajun Is A Baby Version Of The Panamera

“Porsche is plotting a surprise entry into the electric car ranks with an all-new mid-sized liftback that aims to compete with the Tesla Model S.”

“Currently in the formative stages of development at Porsche’s Weissach R&D centre in Germany, the secret five-door is planned to form part of a new dedicated fifth model range set to slot into the German car maker’s line-up beneath the Panamera, according to German media reports citing comments made by Porsche’s outspoken chairman, Matthias Müller.”

Given the level of detail Autocar provides, we believe this Tesla-fighting Porsche could be well along in the development process:

“Details of Porsche’s first-ever series production electric car remain shrouded in secrecy, though Autocar understands it has been conceived around a second-generation version of the MSB platform that currently underpins the Panamera.”

“Set to employ a greater percentage of lightweight, hot-formed, high-strength steel and aluminium than today’s structure, it will boast a shorter wheelbase than that of the Panamera and aim to provide the new car with a kerb weight under the Model S’s 2190kg.”

As for propulsion and battery, it’s believed that the 5-seat Porsche Pajun electric will feature a synchronous electric motor with more output that the top-of-the-line Model S.  The battery will likely be the same unit found in the Audi R8.  Details on that pack are sparse, but we do know that in the R8 e-tron the battery provides up to 280 miles of range and that it’s next-generation battery technology.

We’ve heard “Tesla fighter” several times in the past now, but this electric Porsche, if true, is shaping up to be the first true Tesla competitor: loads of performance, seating for five, range of more than 250 miles, Porsche refinement, handling etc.  Oh, and Porsche has lots of experience with plug-ins.  In fact, Porsche has 3 PHEVs available today, more than any other automaker in the world.

If any automaker is to take on Tesla, the Volkswagen Group (more specifically, Porsche and Audi) is who we’d say is most up to the task.  Certainly Volkswagen Group has the means, expertise, know-how, etc., but is the full-on commitment to plug-in vehicles there?  If Porsche launches the electric Pajun, then the answer is “yes.”

Source: Autocar

Categories: Porsche

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77 Comments on "Electric Porsche Pajun Getting Readied As Tesla Model S Fighter"

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Benz

Any new EV model is welcome.

Ben

+1

JR

Great a German luxurious sedan that will be an ambassador for BEV

DaveMart

What has changed is that prismatic and pouch format batteries have narrowed the energy density compared to 18650 cells enough to make a big pack an option.

The first of these is the SK Innovation pack in the Kia Soul, which runs at 200Wh/kg at the cell level, around 80% of the specific energy of the Panasonics in the Tesla.

No one else except Tesla fancied their manufacturing process of sticking loads of small cells together, rightly or wrongly, and so could not get near enough to their energy density to make a comparable product.

These may well be LG Chem cells, using the same or nearly the same format as for their pack for a 200 mile $35k car, which they reckon they can have production ready in 2016 for that application.

Info on their big cell approach from their CEO of NA here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Wc3nzup5XuM

If they have suitable batteries, expect a fair few cars from Audi, top of the range VWs and so on as long range BEVs to go with their wide range of PHEVs.

GeorgeS

I agree David.
I think the prismatic cells make more sense. The number of cells in the S seems a little much….but they are lowering the cell count on their next gen battery as we know. I forget what was it a 22216 or something.

I can’t see why one couldn’t get the same energy density out of prismatics as the cylindrical cells.

This new Porsche electric is a good thing. Oh boy another fancy electric car I can’t afford.

Bring on the 200 miler GM.

DaveMart

George,

Here was me thinking it was your analysis of the Argonne data which showed why the 18650 format enabled more energy dense cells for the Tesla!

The NCA chemistry used runs hot pretty quickly, as you showed, and the gaps around the cells in 18650 means that it can be liquid cooled well enough.

They used that as it was the commodity version, but their proportion of orders is now big enough to up the cell size a bit from 18650.

Prismatics and pouch formats did not provide the gaps for easy cooling, and so AFAIK did not use the NCA chemistry, at any rate not commonly.

So it is the move to less thermally challenging NMC chemistry and its increasing energy density which has enabled the use of other formats which provide less space, and less well distributed space for cooling in non-18650 formats.

It has not been easy, witness the long, long delay in the NMC 150 mile range Leaf.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

When will proprietary prismatics achieve a scale of production that will bring their prices down to competitive levels with commodity cells?

How mature is proprietary prismatic assembly and engineering, compared to the >100 year history of cylindrical cells?

These guys are all still playing catchup, trying to shoehorn batteries into platforms that weren’t developed with EV use as their primary function. Proprietary prismatics may be a better choice for maximal layout flexibility as you can define the formfactor to fit into a particular volume more optimally, but they’ll never be as inexpensive as commodity cells unless they are built at the same scale as commodity cells, at which point they BECOME commodity cells themselves.

Commodity cells work because of the skateboard, and nobody else is using one, which makes GM look even sadder because they _invented_ the skateboard back with the Hywire and just got the power source wrong.

DaveMart

Prismatic/pouch cells will be competitive enough to allow a $35k 200 mile range car by 2016 from LG Chem according to their NA CEO.

See the video link I have already given, as it really is a good watch and includes information from Sakti3 on solid state battery progress too.

I always have serious doubts about 5 year out projections, as that time scale means to me that they still have a heck of a lot to do and it may not work out,

Two years is a different matter though, as it means they are on the point of gearing up for mass production, are long out of the lab and are doing final on the road testing,

Can things go wrong?
Sure, but it is fairly unlikely, especially since SK Innovation already has a battery in production with ‘good enough’ performance although unknown cost.

Mint

I think one of things that Tesla likes about small cells is that they can fuse all of them individually.

Imagine if a defect, occurring at a rate of once per 100Ah of electrode area, makes a cell short circuit after a few hundred cycles. If you have 4Ah cells, one in 25 cells go bad. If you have 40Ah pouches, it’s over one in three. Now I’m not saying defect rates are that high, but this probably means they can use a higher density construction more prone to shorts.

It’s similar to how, in semiconductor fabrication, a large chip has poorer yield than many smaller one with the same total area.

Delta

Notice that they slot this sedan ‘ slot into the German car maker’s line-up beneath the Panamera’.

So they don’t want to build the best sedan in the world. Their engineers have to make sure it is less than the Panamera.

To fight the Tesla, you have to build the best sedan in the world. And then build a thousand free superchangers for it. Porshe could do it but then what happens to the Panamera and all their ICE supercars and all the expertise they have refined over the last 125 years.

They truly have to see that the ICE era is closing and they must lead it or follow or fail.

Another 100 year old company, Kodak, was really good at film cameras…

DaveMart

The Panamera costs a heck of a lot more than the Tesla.
They are aiming this to go head to head, it looks.

GeorgeS

I think Delta is taking a shot at Porsche because they make gas cars. Gas cars are bad as we all know. Only the great and mighty Elon Musk can do it correctly. Sheesh don’t you know anything.

DaveMart

The VW group undoubtedly do some terrible things.
They have produced petrol and diesel cars for decades, in their tens of millions.
What is worse, they actually make a real profit doing so!
They should get with the modern world more.

Big Solar

Whats really worse is they make a lot of junk across their whole line of cars.

pjwood

+1 After killing Veterans Day, working on OBD-II “readiness” with Vag Com, after 2.8k in EGR, my third EGR flap, and other intake parts and labor, my 5 y/o 2.0ltr TDI finally passed inspection!! Woohoo!

DaveMart

I don’t much like VW cars myself as they have taken their eye off the ball on reliability.

The group seems to do things in projects, so five years ago they focussed on China and building multi drive train compatible platforms.

The current drive is using those platforms to deliver PHEV and BEV, and expanding in North America.

Presumably if they hit problems from customers on their reliability, they will focus on that more, and what they focus on they are remarkably good at achieving.

Funnily enough here in Europe we have a Czech VW sub brand, Skoda, which concentrates on the lower end, and reliability is just fine, and that is using the VW parts bin.

Clearly the problem is priorities, and VW need to sort it.

Sublime

Porsche has a long track record of crippling cars to keep them in line with the lineup. The Cayman is a mid-engine sports car with lots of potential. It was slotted between the 911 (rear engine) and Boxster (anemic mid-engine) so it was tuned to perform almost exactly between these two models.
If Porsche develops an EV and it’s slotted below the Panamera you can expect it to perform exactly below the Panamera in every aspect of performance. This handcuffing of the engineering team will likely result in a product that doesn’t shine in more ways than performance.

Blueberry Blipblop
“Notice that they slot this sedan ‘ slot into the German car maker’s line-up beneath the Panamera’. So they don’t want to build the best sedan in the world. Their engineers have to make sure it is less than the Panamera.” They are probably just talking about it’s price in this matter. The are not saying it has to be of lower quality, even if that normally follows the price. “To fight the Tesla, you have to build the best sedan in the world. And then build a thousand free superchangers for it. Porshe could do it but then what happens to the Panamera and all their ICE supercars and all the expertise they have refined over the last 125 years.” You would have to be price competitive to fight Tesla, get atleast the same bang for the buck, so to speak. Christian von Koenigsegg makes some of the best supercars in the world with ICE engines. He still owns a Tesla and thinks electric is the future, speaking warm heartedly about it. He sees his own market as a niche that could survive the initial phase of electrification. But he would have to fight against electric supercars like the… Read more »
EV_Drive

I would never ever ever buy a vw group product. I worked at a vw dealer as a salesperson for 6 months 10 years ago when I graduated college. Taking people on a test drive in an new passat during a rainstorm, the wipers shorted out. I had to drive back to the dealer with my head hanging out the window. In fact about half of the new cars I sold, jettas, passats, beetles, a toureg, came back within a few weeks to a few months with electrical system malfunctions. The mechanics said it was because they moved the factories to Mexico and they were poorly assembled. They also said if you want a reliable vw, special order it from Germany.
I couldn’t even imagine buying a EV from vw with their electrical system failure track record.

The TDI cars we sold that were supposed to be greener threw out so much carbon monoxide and particulates, aka black smoke pollution. They were nasty. Clean diesel my ass. We made fun of the people who were buying them thinking they were greener cars. Maybe there are some clean diesels now, but 10 years back nope not in the us.

Brian

This is exciting indeed. It sounds like this car can compete well with the Model S on paper. The biggest challenge Porsche will face is the supercharger network. If this car relies on a rollout of the CCS network, then Porsche faces a true uphill battle.

If this car can share that network, then they will both benefit (Tesla and Porsche). In fact, we as a community will benefit, since that will make two plug-in powerhouses in the same QC camp. Maybe we could put an end to the standards war, and just go with Tesla’s design (wishful thinking, I know).

DaveMart

Why on earth should rolling out a few hundred fast chargers using the perfectly adequate CCS 100kw charger be any sort of substantial challenge to the VW group?

Tesla tell us that they include $2000 or so per car in their price to pay for superchargers, including the electricity.

By the year end they will have sold something of the order of 60,000 cars, so call it $120 million for the superchargers.

With a $22 billion a year investment budget, that represents around 2 days investment for the group.

I was thinking the same thing Brian. IF Porsche manages to make a product that hits the same performance numbers as Tesla, and IF it is not priced in the stratosphere, THEN they will still need to look at charging. Once you get to a 200 mile range battery for longer trips, you need to look at 100kW charging (or more as Tesla does 135kW). What will Porsche do? Work they with Tesla? Or create their own stations using CCS? Or wait for others to install CCS chargers? And will those other CCS chargers be anywhere near 100kW and will they be in the correct/strategic locations?

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

And will those 100kW charging stations be clogged up with 50kW (or less) capable vehicles? Will Porsche have to allow all comers to clog up their stations because they choose to accept government grants of financing, access, permitting, etc?

DaveMart

You seem to imagine that the VW group and the other manufacturers using CCS are lousy at logistics and can’t plan for toffee.

That does not seem to be the case to me.

If you wish to assume total incompetence as a reason for what you apparently think will be their failure, then there is really no point in showing how they can perfectly reasonably and at good cost provide all the charging stations needed, as you simply assume that they will foul it up.

Not sure who you are responding too, but I’m not saying they can’t do it, but asking WILL they do it? Are they going to spend the money to create a nationwide CCS network, or will they rely on others or goverments to do this. Tesla decided to build their own network, but they only sell EVs. I just find it hard to imagine any of the other major auto companies investing in fueling infrastructure. This included Toyota spending their own money for a hydrogen infrastructure. I think the big auto companies want to stick to building cars, and let others do the infrastructure part.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
Between government mandates and mediocre legacy corporate management doing a halfhearted job, I absolutely doubt that VW will have the will to develop a CCS network that can handle truly high-speed charging of 100kW or greater. Even if they do, they’ll likely try to do it on the back of government subsidies, which opens them up to interoperability requirements, which then leads to the whole ‘clogging by slowpoke’ problem that Tesla doesn’t have (and will likely never have). I have not seen much that disabuses my notions that legacy automakers don’t really have the stomach to develop pure EVs without massive government carrots and sticks, that they see EVs as qualitatively superior in many ways to legacy ICE power, and that they fear cannibalizing their existing product lines more than someone else coming along and doing it. Granted, my notions are mainly from watching the US legacy automakers, but I think Japanese (aside from Nissan, maybe) and Germans (aside from BMW, maybe) can be painted with the same brush. I think, eventually, automakers may see the light. The Germans may even be first! But by that time, say 2020ish, Tesla should already be at least 2 if not 3 generations… Read more »
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

(er, make that “not qualitatively superior” :p)

Brian

Dave,

You make this argument frequently. Yes, I get it; VW Group has a huge investment budget. However, that does NOT mean that they necessarily want to get into the EV infrastructure business.

Tesla has jumped in with both feet because they have to. They have no gas cars to sell, and could not afford to wait until someone else hopefully installs a quick charging network.

I am not saying that VW Group cannot quickly roll out a charging network IF THEY WANT TO. I am saying that I’m not sure whether they want to play that role. I am not making judgement here, I am simply posing the question.

KDawg got it right. They could build out CCS. They could license Supercharger access. Or they could wait for someone else to build out CCS. If they wait for someone else, they will have a hard time competing with Tesla for sure.

LOL, you are reading my mind again. Should have read your post before typing mine riddled w/typos.

DaveMart

Brian,
You also have made the same point many times, so you can hardly fairly object if it illicits the same response,as I don’t think it a sensible one.

You seek to argue that:

a) The lack of fast chargers will be a serious enough obstacle to cripple sales of big battery cars from the VW group.

And:
b) Although they have ample resources to do so, they will be too dim to action it, and will instead see their intent to take the first place in the market fail.

I don’t find that remotely credible.

I don’t find VW’s approach of letting others break the ground in new technologies, then moving in with massive resources to take over attractive, but they are remarkably effective.

And one thing they are not is dim.
If they need fast chargers, they will ensure they are built.

DaveMart

If Porsche are building BEV car without considering that they will want to fast charge to compete with Tesla, then they would have to be complete idiots.

Is that really what you think?

What are the chances that the VW group is moving to cars with large batteries without even considering that they will need to offer fast charging?

In any reasonable assessment, something close to zero, I would have thought.

Making extensive, highly detailed plans is kind of what German car companies do.

Mint

This is not about them being idiots. It’s about them making a business decision. The benefit for VW will be 1/10th or less of what it was for Tesla.

An electric Pajun is not going to have anywhere near the sales volume of Tesla. Furthermore, it won’t be a matter of no fast charging vs 120kW+, as was the case for Tesla’s decision. It’ll be a matter of existing 50kW vs new 100kW.

If VW does not partner with Tesla for SC access, what we’ll see is a handful of 100kW chargers and a promise that it’ll expand. VW said themselves that PHEV is their vision of the future.

BTW, how is it that you are so cognizant of automakers’ multibillion development expenditures when it comes to charging infrastructure, but can’t apply the same logic to $81M/yr in fuel cell manufacturing to hit $100/kW as per the DOE estimate?

Brian
True, I have made a similar statement multiple times in the past, and I will stick with it. Maybe I should keep saying it, though, because your response seems to be targetted more at what you believe I am saying rather than what I am. a) The lack of fast chargers will be a serious enough obstacle to cripple sales of big battery cars from the VW group. A lack of fast chargers (if there is one – I never made a statement either way on that) may or may not be enough to cripple sales of the car. Look at the Leaf – it does just fine today. A longer range vehicle will be that much more useful, even if you only ever destination-charge it. When I think “Porsche”, I don’t think, “Road Trip car”, I think “Rich Man’s Plaything”. A lack of fast chargers WOULD prevent this car from being a serious competitor to Tesla. b) Although they have ample resources to do so, they will be too dim to action it, and will instead see their intent to take the first place in the market fail. This is flat-out a straw man argument. Please point me to… Read more »
Bill Howland

I can’t criticize Porche at this date since in my area, Tesla has a scarcity of fast chargers also.

However, no doubt due to politicing by Dr. Ron, Clarence will have an 8 stall supercharger setup eventually.

Brian

Yes, thanks in part to Dr. Ron, Clarence has approved the permit for Tesla’s supercharger, and they are moving forward. Ron also reported that Tesla intends to start the process in Syracuse this coming January or February. I assume that means the permits will be done this winter and ground will be broken in the spring.

Tesla has a track record of delays, but they have come through will many of their promises (others we are still waiting on – Model X, your Roadster upgrade option…). I have faith that they will come through with the supercharging network.

Relevant to the article – I have not heard a peep from VW about building out their own network. I don’t doubt they could, but I have no reason to believe they will.

P.S. I hope you are staying warm out there with your feet upon feet of snow!

Bill Howland
Yup, the heavy snow just missed me, but I ordered a new electric snow blower to replace an Identical unit that was overloaded with 2 snow plowings. I was proud to advise the Clarence Town Board that there were no dangerous voltages coming out of a SuperCharger should one of the stalls get knocked over by a Snow Plow; so I’m glad to have some small part is having the Clarence Supercharger Permit Pass unnanimously by the Town Board. They advised the 3 Tesla Rep’s in attendance to improve the Landscaped Screening for the project, as it would also improve Tesla’s Reputation in the area, which the REPS seemed to take to heart. No word on the 400 mile Roadster Upgrade (No clue how many years in the future this will be). The only upgrade I know to the Roadster by Tesla will be the replacement of the troublesome UMC (Ron has burned out 2 of them already, so he went to the $2000 Clipper Creek Thingy), with a Model S UMC, which at least is alot cheaper for Tesla to replace (it will be an extra cost option for current Tesla owners, to have the TSL-01 connector changed out… Read more »
DaveMart
Brian: You said: ‘If this car relies on a rollout of the CCS network, then Porsche faces a true uphill battle.’ So are you claiming this as a major obstacle, or not? It seems perfectly clear to me that a vehicle whose advantage over other battery cars is that it can travel a long distance fast will need chargers to enable this, and more so if it is to compete with the Tesla S as it will plainly have to. You further go into what is to me incomprehensibility by saying first: ‘A lack of fast chargers (if there is one – I never made a statement either way on that) may or may not be enough to cripple sales of the car.’ And immediately after: ‘A lack of fast chargers WOULD prevent this car from being a serious competitor to Tesla.’ So what on earth do you imagine that the car will be cross shopped with? Lets think: What other high speed battery electric which can travel long distances is there? You surely can’t be seriously suggesting that this is NOT meant to compete with the Tesla? So pick any side you want to, but stick to it. In… Read more »
Brian
First, I have picked a side, and what I’m trying to say is consistent. I apologize that I am not the most elegant writer, and I have been unclear to you. Things just aren’t as black-and-white as you seem to be implying. Without a fast charging network, the Porsche will still sell. There are enough rich people who love the way a Porsche drives who would be willing to add this car to their collection. This would be a similar market to the original Roadster (even though today there are more options available). I have little doubt that the Porsche will perform better than the Tesla. By that I am referring to more than just 0-60 times. I mean the complete picture – handling, feel, fit and finish, etc. In the end, though, it will not be a very good direct competitor to Tesla. It will be cross-shopped for sure with Tesla, but also other high-end performance cars. Yes, even those with an ICE. Again, think of it as a rich man’s plaything. One car of many. The fun car. NOT the “pack the family and Christmas presents, we’re going to Grandma’s” car. There is enough of a market there… Read more »

Nissan, Mitsubishi, and Kia put J1772 + CHAdeMO; Porsche could also do a double take: install Tesla Charging onboard With optional Supercharger Access, AND install CCS, for charging where that is prevalent, like Europe, Japan, and maybe California!

If they could pull that off, and make a J1772 and a CHAdeMO adapter like Tesla designed, for their cars – they would have covered the Holy Trinity of EV Charging: Tesla, CHAdeMO, and CCS (with J1772 adapters as well, they would be pretty much All In for The USA & Canada)!

Mike I

100kW CCS doesn’t exist yet. Last I heard, Ford was the only one pushing for it. If this is the way VW Group wants to take Porsche, they need to solidify the CCS standards push to and beyond 100kW.

JakeY

I believe you asked the same question a while back, but the reason is:
1) VW’s bean counters and board won’t let them do that, whereas Elon can order immediate changes.
2) It will take a couple years to roll out that infrastructure even if they did decide to do it.
3) Tesla’s superchargers (and supporting parts like battery backup and solar panels) are all in-house and vertically integrated so it costs them significantly less to build the same thing.
4) All the major manufacturers show a strong preference for dealer installed chargers (and government funded elsewhere) and VW would likely be no different. This includes even Nissan (which has a CEO with strong EV “vision”).

DaveMart

@Jake:
5. They haven’t needed to.

There are plenty of level 1 and level 2 chargers provided.

They have not needed fast chargers because none of them have built a car having the range or battery capacity for them to be much use.

Your argument seems to rely on BEV car manufacturers not having built infrastructure they don’t currently need.

How on earth are you using that as predictive of what they will do when they are needed?

JakeY

You can easily speculate just on how the roll out of 50kW chargers are going. None of the other automakers have stepped up and built their own 50kW charging network (including Nissan), even though all of them have plenty of money available to do so. So there is no indication they will do that for 100kW+ (which costs even more money per charger).

And given VW’s attitude as put out when announcing the hydrogen A7 concept, they expect others to built the infrastructure first before they make the vehicles.

GeorgeS

@Brian
I just can’t see Tesla sharing their network with anyone.

Brian

Actually, I see plenty of benefits for Tesla sharing their network. They could easily charge Porsche $3k per car to license the technology (and Porsche would pass in on the customers who would eagerly pay the premium). Since most of the network cost is wrapped up in installing the superchargers, and many of the necessary chargers will be installed anyway, this would be a boon to Tesla’s bottom line.

It would also establish Tesla as the defacto provider of charging for long-range EVs.

It would encourage third parties to install supercharger-compatible quick chargers, increasing the appeal of all of Tesla’s cars.

Yes, Tesla has far more to gain than to lose by licensing their supercharger technology.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

If I were Tesla, I would require any vehicles charging to be able to accept a charge at full power. So, any other automakers would need to sell vehicles with at least 60kWh of battery with a chemistry that can safely handle 2.5C charge rate or better, or a smaller battery such that (size in kWh * safe charge rate = 135kW).

I seem to remember Tesla suggesting future Supercharger builds would would move towards 150 kW. So, other users could be required to support from 90 to 150 kW on the Tesla Network.

Packs made with A123 cells like the little 2.5 Ah 26650M1B cells could be as small as 10 kWh and still handle 150 kW charging, since that is 15C, and they are 30C Rated!

More practical to be packs of at least 30 kWh, for some good 100 mile range, and since that would just be 5C charging, but – they are not as energy dense as Tesla’s Cell, so would still be a physically large pack!

Why not George? They have put the offer out there, but no one has taken it. Obviously the newcomer would have to share in the cost, which helps Tesla’s bottom line.

DaveMart

I can see no reason to doubt Tesla’s statements that they would love to share their network.

I can also see little chance of VW being interested.

Since the finance is not any substantial problem for them, why make their customers have to use two different connectors?

And why give Tesla a leg up when VW have the advantages of scale as they ramp up their BEV and PHEV production?

VW are expanding their BEV line to a capacity of around 330,000 from their present 30,000, and are not hanging on for a gigafactory to do so, or for 2017.

That is aside from their PHEV production.

They don’t need Tesla, and they don’t need their superchargers.

They need something for long range public charging…

DaveMart

Yep.
And to suppose that they don’t know that, and are not making plans to cover exactly that, is to assume that they are complete idiots, which is a literally incredible assumption.

Mike

The car itself is only part of the ownership though.
The real key to Tesla is that they are building a charging network to let you drive across the country (depending on your country).
But a Tesla in Germany will travel faster because they have a great supercharger network already.
Porche will just build a car and assume everyone will sit for hours using L2 charging.

Acevolt

The car might have similar specs, but no way will it be priced as low as a Tesla. I bet it will start in the 90’s.

Priusmaniac

If they want to improve on the Tesla Model S they just can’t start from a 100 KW charger since Tesla is already at 135 KW. They need to have at least 150 KW, preferably 200 KW or straight towards the 1000 KW end goal. They could also incorporate under the car contacts at 6000 volt instead of 400 V cord to achieve that result. In the same time it would give a P&F feature that makes it even more convenient.

For the rest it is fine if they put another EV on the market. The more there is the better.

DaveMart

You upgrade until you have something which works well enough for the job, not for the sake of it.

100kw works fine, and since charge rates drop off considerably as the battery gets more full, effective average actual charge times are not vastly different for 100kw and 135kw.

In Europe at least subsidies which are considerable specify that charge locations have to be CCS compatible, hence even for CHAdeMO chargers now usually include a CCCS spot.

There are many thousand slower speed CCS chargers, and they are not going to swap to the Tesla charging standard for the sake of the few hundred of those that are installed.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

I doubt Tesla will warrant Supercharging any faster than 2.5-3C, so the batteries would need to be upsized to support higher rates.

A 120kWh car SCing at 250kW would be pretty much the end of competing ICE vehicles at its price point. ~400mi range recharging at 750mph. Problem is, getting that price point down.

DaveMart

Indeed.

GeorgeS

All right Doc.
Bring on the 250 kw SC’s.
Sounds good to me 🙂

Taser54

The power feed requirements for scaling up a supercharger location to address any appreciable amount of cars appears to be a huge barrier, let alone increasing the per car charging rate to greater than 150KW/hr.

I’ve read little on how Tesla has planned to scale up these sites.

Wraithnot

Tesla installs on-site battery storage at some of it’s supercharger sites to lower peak demand on the electrical grid. The Barstow supercharger has a pretty impressive bank of batteries- 360 kWh IIRC. Other companies that use DC quickchargers are also experimenting with this as well. Weight isn’t nearly as important for stationary batteries so you don’t have to use the same 250 Wh/Kg battery cells that are used in the car.

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Since they’ve already scaled up several sites, I don’t think it’s a big problem: you add more transformers and the utility adds capacity along the wire as needed. It’s like any new construction, really.

Back to the article:
– planning
– no year given

So Porsche is basically doing what everybody is doing: working on a long-range electric car.

Bill Howland

‘1000 kw’. Hummmm,, who precisely is going to pay for all this?

Maybe a Dept of Energy grant?

It would definitely be a sight to see:

85 cars charging at the same time in a parking lot, and of course, the 85 mw power plant next door making it all happen.

Maybe in a parallel universe.

pjwood

“..it’s believed that the 5-seat Porsche Pajun electric will feature a synchronous electric motor with more output that the top-of-the-line Model S…”

No, it won’t. Believing Porsche is about to come out with a 3.1 second BEV is about the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.

We’re talking about the company that ever so carefully sorts the pedigree of its models, by 0-60 performance. The top Panamera is a 3.7 second machine. Turbo-S and the new GT3 are 2.9-3.0 machines. I know this company too well, to put any faith whatsoever in the idea some “Pajun” will be built to take down just about their entire line-up (and its margins!).

If you want to beat every Porsche you see, today and tomorrow, buy a P85D with Pilot Supersports and have fun. The Turbo-S is about the only fair fight.

..Just don’t go to the track.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Two words:

Cayman Turbo.

(though it appears they’ll be actually building one for track use, which is reassuringly expensive enough not to nibble at the 911)

DavidCary

Right, if Porsche matched the P85D at anywhere near $110k, it would be very hard to sell a Panamera Turbo at $180k.

Predictions – car won’t be as fast as P85D, will cost more than P85D, and they will not figure out a QCDC option that competes. They will have a nicer interior though…

Porsche is in trouble. Has anyone see the rapid depreciation on a Panamera turbo. Check it out and see what the next few months does as the P85D delivers.

I’ve heard of a 1-2 year old $180k model traded in at $60k…

pjwood

What I don’t understand is why the massive gulf between PHEV and BEV battery size, at VWG. It is as if they wouldn’t understand EREV if it hit them in the face.

A “sporty BEV” is an oxymoron that aims to start at the finish line.

I witnessed my first i8, in the flesh, yesterday. I ended up the “Chargepoint mentor” for the guy, who asked, then said “I don’t have the time”. I later felt like the best reply might have been “Yeah, it’s a tiny battery, anyway”.

I don’t know if Porsche is in trouble, with depreciation. They don’t eat that. I am more inclined to think Tesla is in trouble, for lack of it. They are the ones worse off, if customers don’t see the value of “Autopilot”, over the savings to be had in a gently used 85kwh car. –No sale.

DaveMart

Their PHEV cars have 50km on the NEDC cycle to qualify as a ZEV city car in China.

That is where 45% of the group’s sales are, and is also fine for most non-American commutes.

The space they have allowed for their PHEV batteries will enable them to offer around the same range as the Volt I gets on electric without altering the packaging when better batteries arrive, in 2016 according to LG Chem, at least as an alternative.

Stimpacker

This is NOT a Tesla Fighter (I wish it was). This only addresses half the equation. In order to be a real Tesla fighter, it has to have Tesla SuperCharge capability. Hope they’ll ink out a deal with Tesla.

Can’t imagine taking a Porsche into a Nissan dealer (that’s where most of L3 chargers are here in Nor Cal) and begging them to move their Leafs.

ffbj

Since we don’t know the final feature set of the car, it is hard to say how it compares toe-to-toe with the Model S.

The one take-away I get from this: Tesla is enough of a threat to Porsche that they feel the need to have offerings in direct competition with comparable technology. In other words, they see the customer demand for Tesla-like technology.

Since the entire mission of Tesla is being the catalyst for EV adoption. Success (financial or not) seems to be in the not to distant future.

Dan

So the future of BEVs is… in high-priced luxury sedans. Great.

Still waiting for a 200-mile BEV from Nissan or GM.

Delta

Does anyone on this forum think that we will be burning gasoline to run cars in 2030?

If your answer is no, then to survive, the car companies have to start from scratch right now. 2030 is only 15 years from now.

Tesla seems to understand this. The behemoth car companies all say they could do what Tesla is doing “if they wanted to”.

History proves that this is not the case. It wasn’t the railroad barons who build the first cars , even though they had the billions required to do so. They could have done it, but they couldn’t envision a world where the steam engine didn’t exist.

Brian

I do believe that we will be burning gasoline in 2030. I wish that wasn’t the case, but I believe it will be. In fact, many of the cars purchased today (the vast majority of which burn gasoline) will still be on the road in 2030. I do believe that petroleum will be very difficult to find to satiate increasing energy demand. I would bet on $10/gallon gas by then.

A better analogy, btw, would be diesel engines replacing steamies. I don’t know offhand if that was done by the incumbents, or newcomers. The first cars were much more of a threat to horse and buggies.

Rich

Good conversation, but you are forgetting that there is another option available to Porsche, battery swaps. Right now Renault is using a company from Israel called “Better Place” who just focus on battery swap. That company, or a similar one could offer battery swaps eliminating the need for supercharging stations. In fact even Tesla is moving towards this model.

Mike I

That gave me a good laugh. You do know that Better Place went belly-up and company that bought the assets for pennies on the dollar can’t even make a go of it, right?

Rich, Better Place never made cars. They only convinced one auto maker to make one car with a swapable battery that met their specs. They are Bankrupt’ Kaput, gone!

Tesla, will be the next player to try swapping batteries, but at least they make the car that will be doing the swaps! Look for their first Swap Station announcement in December or January!