Edmunds Says Long-Term Tesla Model 3 Has Tons Of Issues

Tesla Model 3

MAY 23 2018 BY STEVEN LOVEDAY 317

Edmunds released its April update related to its long-term Tesla Model 3 and it’s far from positive.

As many of you are probably aware, Edmunds has a Tesla Model 3 for the long haul. Essentially, the publication lives with the car over an extended period of time and provides valuable information for prospective buyers. Based on the slew of issues Edmunds is reporting, it appears that either they got stuck with a lemon, Model 3s lack consistency from vehicle to vehicle, or this is just a really problematic car.Tesla Model 3

Not All Bad: Edmunds’ 40 Cool Things About The Model 3

Watch This: Tesla Model 3 Track Tested By Edmunds

We’re talking about intermittment screen and backup camera function, navigation bugs, failure to recognize keycard, audio system independently turning on and off and up to full volume, vanity mirrors falling off, and inability to shift the car into drive or reverse.

The crazy part is that this is just a small list of problems Edmunds has encountered. They’ve been driving the car less than four months and all of this happened in the last four weeks, resulting in two service visits, another visit scheduled, and a grand total of zero days out of service.

Edmunds even went so far as to say that they’ve started a shared Google Doc to keep track of the myriad of problems, warning messages, resets, and overall failures. The article says:

Forget that this is a “cutting-edge” EV with a cult following. That’s irrelevant if Tesla wants to be anything more than a footnote in automotive history. Our Model 3 cost us $56,000, and by that standard alone, the ownership experience so far has been unacceptable. But this is no ordinary $56K car. We put down a $1,000 deposit to get on a two-year waiting list for this car and it’s falling apart.

 

Early adopters who could spend six figures on a car such as the Model S might’ve given Tesla a bit of extra leeway. Maybe they figure it’s a small price to pay for such a technologically advanced car. Maybe it’s a sacrifice they’re willing to make to avoid using fossil fuels and get free access to the carpool lane. This far into its run, though, and with a car intended for mass appeal, Tesla should have the bugs worked out. It clearly doesn’t.

To put all of this in perspective, it’s important to note that Edmunds has driven the car a grand total of 5,257 miles. During the month of April, it put 1,120 miles on the Model 3.

Watch This – Teardown Expert Drives Tesla Model 3, No Longer Compares It To 90s Kia

Fortunately for Tesla, and for reservation holders, there is a hint of positivity in the review. This is especially true when it comes to performance and cargo space. Edmunds’ senior manager content strategy Josh Sadlier shared:

After my drive, a friend of mine asked me how the Model 3 compares to the current BMW 3 Series, and I told him I’d rather have the Tesla. He laughed. I wasn’t kidding.

Staff writer Travis Langness added:

I was recently transporting a large record collection, along with a few boxes of CDs, and the Model 3 was the car I had for the job. I was impressed by the Model 3’s storage ability relative to its size, with the space to fit four massive storage containers and several cases of CDs with space to spare.

Follow the link below for the full monthly report, including detailed descriptions of the plethora of issues, along with more quotes from different editors and test drivers pertaining to various aspects of the Model 3.

Keep the conversation going on our Forum. Start a new thread about this article and make your point heard.

Source: Edmunds

TESLA MODEL 3

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2. Tesla Model 3
Range: 310 miles; 136/123 mpg-e. Still maintaining a long waiting list as production ramps up slowly, the new compact Tesla Model 3 sedan is a smaller and cheaper, but no less stylish, alternative, to the fledgling automaker’s popular Model S. This estimate is for a Model 3 with the “optional” (at $9,000) long-range battery, which is as of this writing still the only configuration available. The standard battery, which is expected to become available later in 2018, is estimated to run for 220 miles on a charge. Tesla Model 3 charge port (U.S.) Tesla Model 3 front seats Tesla Model 3 at Atascadero, CA Supercharging station (via Mark F!) Tesla Model 3 Tesla Model 3 The Tesla Model 3 is not hiding anymore! Tesla Model 3 (Image Credit: Tom Moloughney/InsideEVs) Tesla Model 3 Inside the Tesla Model 3 Tesla Model 3 rear seats Tesla Model 3 Road Trip arrives in Tallahassee Tesla Model 3 charges in Tallahassee, trunk open.

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317 Comments on "Edmunds Says Long-Term Tesla Model 3 Has Tons Of Issues"

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Most of the issues are annoying but not really a big deal. I had some of these issues with a Model S loaner I was driving while my car was worked on. They are not critical issues. Certainly on par with issues they have reported on other long term test cars.

My Leaf has had exactly zero issues similar to these over 4 years and 100,000 miles. I really want to get a Model Y, but the terrible reliability of Tesla’s gives me pause as I am an 8 hour drive from the nearest service centre. An acquaintance owns a Model S here and he stored up issues then goes to Vancouver periodically to get them fixed!

It’s really so hard to put a finger on it. It’s so different with Tesla being top in the media and under the microscope. As soon as we post a negative story from one source, there’s a positive and contradictory story from another. It’s becoming increasingly hard to even know who knows who, who pays who, what the agendas are, how the stock stances come into play, etc. To put it lightly, it has all become so much of a huge mess. I will venture to say that we believe Tesla’s new cars may be somewhat inconsistent. Unless, of course, all the mixed reviews just stem from stock interests and such. I will also say that it seems (though we can’t really know for sure due to the above) that early models of any car are not on par with later models, as Tesla doesn’t use model years and is changing and updating daily. With all that being said, it’s just so difficult to get the truth and to know where this is all going. One can only hope that all of these lessons learned with the Model 3 will make the Model Y situation much better. Although, an epic… Read more »

++
The result of poor quality control is inconsistent quality/reliability, which *may* be a factor in the varied reports.
Toyota is known for consistent (and fairly high) reliability but in the 2000’s they also had a poor track record of introducing “all-new” product, so it can happen to anyone, and at Tesla everything is “all-new”
The key is to treat your customers well with prompt service and fix the root cause quickly.

I had a 1997 Camry which is unbelievably reliable from day 1 to the last day. The 2nd 2007 Camry was really bad and I traded it with 3,300 miles after 2.5 years. I didn’t miss a zero. It was 3 thousand and 3 hundred miles.

However, we (I and my spouse) did not lose faith with Toyota and bought a 2017 Prius Prime Adv. It’s been a blast owing it. Even with all the goodies, the MSRP is still less than Model 3’s starting price for a Std. Range model, which you can not yet get.

Business people are famous or should I say notorious of their distorting skills, to say it politely. With Jeff Bezos owing the Washington Post, you can be sure you will never ever hear the truth from mainstream media. I rest my case.

Tesla’s facebook groups aren’t reporting this as an issue.

People who join EV facebook groups tend to be early adopters or EV enthusiasts who tend to ignore the annoyances. Mainstream customers usually generate word of mouth reputations and they tend to be more cost sensitive to repairs.

That certainly does not apply to all social media. The people posting to the Tesla Motors Club forum certainly don’t pull their punches when discussing problems with their cars, mostly small ones but sometimes major ones!

However, FaceBook’s format does discourage any serious discussion of issues, so it would not surprise me if there isn’t much discussion of problems there.

People who join EV internet groups often complain loudly, sometimes making others believe problems are worse than they are. Sometime not. That’s how I read about the complaints Android is getting, as a Bluetooth key. TM3 seems to hear an Apple phone better. But complaints about the card, itself? Am I missing something?

People know the car comes with phone entry *and* a credit card sized key. Right?

One almost wonders who might moderate that!

I admin the largest Model 3 group on Facebook. This post is up on the group wall.

Your comment of a cluster…. is Tesla’s media relations, and it is what is going on in the executive offices, and factory floor. Tesla tries to cheat long understood testing and validations processes that industries have adopted for a reason. On a simple product this maybe possible, but a car is complex and has a world wide supply chain that all has to be perfectly tuned for the product to to be manufactured properly. Tesla builds something different and Elon’s superlative comments attract media attention. Elon claims of Safest, fastest, etc… draw scrutiny, its natural. Tesla has said they will get it right on the next product a couple times before, and Model 3 is about a simple of car as you could possible design. Elon talks a big talk, but over and over has proven weak on execution, which is really the most important part of the business. If you bought a Tesla model 3 a couple months ago, say VIN 15K and now at 19K Tesla updated the seats for more comfort, don’t you feel a bit cheated? Why didn’t they finish the design before production started? I ordered a Jaguar I-Pace because after seeing it in NY,… Read more »

You write like you follow closely, or are actually in the industry. Tesla didn’t get Model 3 seats wrong, as you imply. They changed a freagin’ stitch. Puh-lease.

Enjoy your I-Pace. People wanted a HUD upon learning about TM3’s interior. Tesla balked. Jag didn’t.

Jaguar i-pace would be awesome except they botched it and did not join the tesla supercharging network. Now you are stick with a car that in theory could charge at 100kW at superchargers that has between 6 and 40 outlets per location, at more than a thousand locations, but instead you are stuck with a fragile, badly maintained 50kW network with the hope that at some point it will be built out by somebody else, making your i-pace a local car.

Most people charge at home so this isn’t really a problem.

Most people that want to take a trip won’t be able to use their home charger.

Except, I never once “Charged” my ICE at home! And last week I only charged 2X near home (1x as I left, 1x when I came home!), while about 9x – 10x away, as I did about 4,000 Kms on a Road Trip (that would be doable on the Supercharger Network, if I was on my LR Model 3, as well!)!

Perhaps you’ve heard of Electrify America?

Now that’s funny !

😉

Electrify your pocketbook. Go use one and see how much it costs when you are done.

Is it more than gasoline? (never used a public charger)
If people almost always charge at home, I wouldn’t mind paying more at a public station, especially if it would be a Tesla charger, my money support a cause I believe to be good. Tesla should actually try to make a profit from their network – keep it cheap for a limited amount of kwh per month, then increase to step 2 fees.

In our case, we are a 3 car family, one will be the I-Pace, I did not spend 1 second worrying about charging… Electrify America pretty much solves the range issues anywhere I might want to go, but I would never go more then 1 charging stop from home, I would rather fly and enjoy time with the family at the destination, then spend our family time a superchargers, but its that is what you like… Have fun! Takes all kinds to make a world…

The important point is you are buying an EV and not an ICEV. No matter if it’s a Tesla, Leaf or i-Pace. You are not supporting the Fossil Fuel Pollution Industries…excellent!

Except, when he chooses to support them with another seat rented for that trip, on an ICE Powered Jet Plane!😞😰

or buy electric vehicle that uses lithium mined with diesels lol

As to Flying, I would Agree, unless you mean “Riding”, on a plane someone else is flying!?

So many people get mixed up, and think “They are Flying”, when in fact the Captain or the Autopilot is doing the Flying, and they are just privaleged Guests on that flight, riding along in the “Time Shared” seats!

My Problem with using an airplane to have more time with family is driving to the airport and then I’m required to show up one hour before flight time, then there is those 3 hour layovers to switch planes and hope your luggage isn’t lost Then time taken and cost incurred with a rental car and it’s return and the flight leaves at a time to early, or late, compared to just getting in a fully charged vehicle, driving for three hours, taking a well deserved time out to grab a coffee, and/or a sandwich, take a pee, answer an email or text or return a call (about 45 to 60 min). Car is now charged up and I continue for another 3 hours……rinse, repeat. All in all, air travel is stressful, inconvenient and expensive for trips less than 1500 miles. If you have kids, and plan the trip, you can make a car trip into an adventure that everyone enjoys. Time is important, but so is quality of time spent. It’s what I like and we have fun. I guess it takes all kinds. Priorities……

He is a Seeking Liars type serial anti-Tesla troll who poses as a concern troll sometimes but always goes back to his financial FUD against Tesla including his now ridiculous rumor that Panasonic is on the outs with Tesla.

He will write anything to benefit his shorting and even he outed himself as investing 100K in Chinese company BYD and claims he lives in WA but now he talks about NY which is where he probably lives as a scammer financial guy.

Get Real, you are full of …. As just about anyone on here that has seen my posts can see. I did not say Tesla and Panasonic are on the outs, only that they are not as close as other times in their relationship, and Panasonic / Toyota are getting closer and closer every day. Toyota is the 900Lb gorilla in the automotive world, not only are they the best at managing their company, and the best at designing manufacturing, but they also have the most capital to invest. If they decide EV’s are where it is at, they will own Panasonic so fast… http://fortune.com/2017/12/13/panasonic-toyota-battery-tesla-evs/ Yes, I did buy 100K of BYD, why do you bring that up every post? Like 100K is a lot of money? That is less then 4 % of the money I have invested, and BYD was trading at an incredibly low multiple. I had just gotten out of a multi year position with BA and MSFT, and looking for other opportunities. On the I-Pace, if you see my comments in the forum I stated multiple times that I flew to NY for the auto show just to see the I-Pace, because I do not… Read more »

Right, another rich guy showing his true colors by investing in non-American companies and buying non-American products.

Do you own any consumer electronics? Without knowing which, it’s a pretty safe bet that 95% of their content is manufactured in Asia or elsewhere outside the US. Ditto for appliances, fabrics, furniture and pretty much anything you own.

Last time I checked there are cars made in America so if you want it to remain that way you might want to pay attention to how you spend your dollars on your auto(s).

1) You said “products”, not cars specifically. Most cars have a very varied range of countries where their components are made, just google it.
2) Typical US-centric person, who insists on saying “America” when s/he means “USA”
3) Why do you assume I’m in the US? I’m not, and neither are ~50% of this site’s readers.
I also don’t give a !@#$ about the (pretty bad for you) US balance of trade.

Thanks for the perspective. My wife is also content made 100% in China, well Hong Kong if you want to get technical.

Showing my true colors? What do you mean? BYD is investing heavily in green initiatives and the stock hit a low point with multiples that are attractive to me. Greenhouse gas saved anywhere on the planet is good if you ask me? Also BYD has a manufacturing facility in Lancaster CA, paying American Taxes, and employing American workers.

“Get Real, you are full of ….”

No, that would be you, “Dave”. You can’t open your mouth without B.S. spewing out. There isn’t one single post by you on InsideEVs that’s not full of lies.

You are so full of it that your eyes must be brown.

You must have an extremely low opinion of yourself, too, to lower yourself to this standard of FUDdite indecency.

Pu-Pu,

Why are you always such a big jerk? 🤷‍♂️ The same goes for Get Real.

Pu-Pu… I love it… He cannot handle the real truth. He lives in some alternative Tesla universe.

Correct my “Lies” buddy? I am waiting for real debate sans the insults.

As Consumer Reports said if any car needs a HUD this one does.

Surely, as I said, it’s all going to get very interesting very soon. Let’s wait and see!

> Toyota could easily acquire Panasonic

Yeah right. That would not be an easy thing for Toyota to do.

And the M3 seats are just fine, based on my experience in sitting in them. The back seats are very comfortable. Also, seen so many reviews on Youtube, and no complaints about the seats. If anything, reviewers love the car overall.

So you found a youtube video that says the Model 3 back seats are comfortable, and that caries more credibility then seasoned automotive journalists with you? Wow, I sat in the back of a Model 3, and can tell you it is not the most uncomfortable backseat ever, Model S takes the cake for that, but it was not great, Not even close to the comfort of Bolt, Leaf, Camry, Accord, BMW 335, AudiA4, etc… you should go to a Tesla dealer that has one in stock and try if for yourself… Check out the S back seat while you are there. Certainly do not take my word, or a youtube video’s word, go see it for yourself, and you could make your own you tube video, or you can check out Bjorn Nyland’s review of I-Pace, where he shows the rear seat position compared to Model S. Interior starts at 4:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JvKsI3_xA0&t=436s

Very poor comprehension. I clearly indicated ‘many’ on those YouTube videos, and you brought it down to a single video.

Also, you seem to completely discount my experience in sitting in the M3 back seats. I found it comfortable, very comfortable, and I suggest anyone here to seat in those seats and judge from themselves.

I’m well aware of Bjorn Nyland, and watch most of his video’s and have seen that I-Pace video.

You just come across as insecure I-Pace fan. How dare anyone say the M3 back seats are comfortable! I will let you in on something, the M3 is going to absolutely destroy the I-Pace in sales, and it has nothing to do with the comfort of the back seats.

Haha, That was bad comprehension on my part… I apologize for that error. I am certainly happy that my neighbors will not all have the same car as me, and I hope you are right that Tesla Model 3 crushing the I-Pace, that is part of buying a luxury product is having a bit of exclusivity. Like my wife with her Hermes bags, she always buys the very limited production models just for that very reason. :)~

Fair enough.

I hope to have the pleasure of riding in a I-Pace, if and when Waymo comes to my town.

All EV’s are good.

Nope, dont feel cheated at all.
Love our Model 3

“Dave” continued his Tesla hater campaign:

“My opinion is that Tesla will need serious help or Model Y is not going to happen. Tesla’s financial situation is really becoming a problem…”

It really sickens me how serial Tesla haters are never satisfied with sticking with the truth, even when the truth is quite negative for Tesla.

Does Tesla has some serious problems with quality control and giving their builds consistent quality? I’d say yes, the evidence does point to that. This Edmunds.com review isn’t the first indication of inconsistency, but certainly does appear to highlight that problem.

But to suggest that Tesla is in serious financial trouble… well, that’s the same B.S. that Tesla short-sellers and haters have been spewing since the very first day that Tesla’s stock price starting its long rise to better than 10x its original price.

Really, I have to wonder how trolls like “Dave” sleep at night. Their behavior, in trying to damage a company that is truly and honestly trying to make the world a better place, is utterly despicable.

Pushmi… Take a look at the last 5 years of Tesla financial data and point out what seems to be improving? There is a legitimate reason to be very concerned on Teslas financials, yes the revenue is rising with a very rapid pace, but the costs seem to be outpacing the revenue growth resulting in worse cash flow and more losses. Oh and I mean the 10-K and 10-Q filings, the investor letters are usually baked in half truths. Dont take my word for it, look for yourself. Then when you have seen the numbers and pinpointed the dots, you might ask? Where is the money coming from? The answer is simple, stock offerings resulting in dilution, debt resulting in higher interest payments, debt backed with future amortizations, hybrid loans etc. Im not saying that Tesla is going out of business but they really need to change the direction of the boat quite fast, interest rates are rising and Tesla bonds are trading with a significant discount as we speak. That means that if Tesla wants to sell new bonds the interest will most likely be higher than today. Personally id say the Model S is perhaps in top 3… Read more »

That’s not entirely true. Net loss per common share went down in 2016 compared to 2015, but yes it went back up in 2017. Not surprising, you guys like to cherry pick stuff from the financials, or you could not read a financial table if you life depended on it.

The stock price is the greatest barometer of a company’s health, and the fact Tesla stock is so high is telling.

If this was a company that was in trouble, it shares would be under a $1.

Losses are being driven by R&D. Expansion of the company. Wall Street loves that. If they didn’t the stock would be worth nothing what it is today.

What company of Tesla size has revenue growth of almost 100% each year for the past number of years, and looks like it will be able to sustain that for a number of years more. Pre-orders of 500,000 for a car before it was produced, is unheard of.

You’re really are confused aren’t you.

How exactly am I cherry picking when I specifically said “Take a look at the last 5 years of Tesla financial data and point out what seems to be improving?” I choose a longer time frame to show that it is not just a bad year but a constant theme

Also, how is the share price the best indicator? Share prices move up and down many times with no reason at all. The share price indicates to me that there is an enormous amount of hype in Tesla. R&D has been quite stable at around 10% of revenue. That really cant explain all the losses.

The I Pace is $70,000 to $100,000

My order for a I-Pace First Edition, is $ 87,470 to be exact, and is pretty much loaded. After Sales Tax it is about 35% cheaper then a loaded Tesla Model X 100D

The IPace looks solid, they have been running pre production factory cars for months. Magna Steyr is doing the assembly and did much of the production engineering. Tesla is in way over their heads, my friend was at a graduation where the speaker was Tesla employee number 20. She was saying how they did not hire experienced auto manufacturering people from the OEMs…like that was a good idea, Tesla has remade mistakes last made 25 years ago. They have designed some excellent drive train tech but totally failed with all the stuff like the Model S door handles that are needlessly complicated and failure prone (google Tesla door handles). Theses are long solved problems that a few industry vets could have guided them on during design. They seem to be trying to “inspect quality in” after the build and after the customer buys the car. This is an incredibly expensive way to get to a finished product. Allot of the considerable EV cost of ownership advantages are being negated. If they scale the Model 3 with the sort of issuesthis test unit experiences then they will be building a new problem of massive backlogs of warranty repairs that will exhaust… Read more »

5 seats tops, no long range charge network, and slow…unless you wait for an SVR for deep into the 6 figures. And yes i have designed an I-Pace for myself as well, anybody can do that for free. I will drive the I-Pace, but not own it.

The only car i’d be willing to give up Supercharging on is the Porsche Mission-E.

Hello, Tesla Pete. Good to see you here. Followed all your contributions during the recent hypermile attempt. If you get a chance, please reach out to me via InsideEVs email: contact.insideevs@gmail.com. I will also try your email here, but have found that many here aren’t always real. Take care and thanks for your support of electric cars!

5 seats is true, charging is not a problem for most people, slow? Not sure what you mean? 0-60 in 4.5 seconds is not bad…

I am also looking at Mission-E, if the production version looks near as good as the prototype, I will have one. Building an extra garage bay just in case.

Steven, on a related note: I was searching the Google for “Bolt fatal crash,” and found zero headlines that mentioned the Bolt. There have been fatalities, and I did find some articles, but never specifying in the headline that it was in a Chevy Bolt; it’s usually just casually mentioned in the second paragraph. But every Tesla fatality has made headlines, even though there have been far fewer per capita.

Maybe not literally “every,” but you see my point.

Edit: also, they always seem to mention Autopilot, even if only to say they don’t know if it was involved, engaged or even installed.

Does Bolt have “AutoPilot”?

Oh, that’s right, no it doesn’t. A Bolt is just a car, not a “Chariot of the Gods That Harnesses Thought Control”.

Tesla wants media attention, so Tesla gets media attention. It’s as simple as that.

Tesla wants ONLY positive media attention, but unfortunately for them, that’s not how the real world works.

Yep, singling Tesla out with a vacuous criticism that applies to literally every company ever. Pretty much what I was expecting.

Thank you; I think you just gave me my future Model 3’s new name: “Chariot of the Gods.” Athough I may just abbreviate it to COTG for the vanity plate. Or, “CHARIOT” would make a pretty good vanity plate too.

Would be appropriate for nearly every Tesla driver I’ve met. Looking forward to 2020 and onward when we’ll have many choices to make.

I’m guessing that you’re too young to have read the best seller.

I preferred Food of the Gods (the book, not the vanity plate) myself, with apologies for going off topic.

Exactly

“There have been fatalities, and I did find some articles, but never specifying in the headline that it was in a Chevy Bolt”

Fatalities involving other people in the accident. Was there ever one that killed the passenger or driver of the Bolt?

The biggest/most severe Bolt crash was the one with a drunk Bolt driver went the wrong way on the hwy killing 2 person in the other vehicles and he was in stable condition last I heard. That accident report said ” Investigation indicated that a Chevy Bolt driven by 74-year-old Edwin Brown of Chelsea was heading northbound in the southbound lanes of US-23 when he struck a Ford Fusion with three occupants, killing two passengers.
State Police are seeking two counts of operating under the influence causing death against Brown, although he could face additional charges.”Two Ann Arbor residents in a Chevy Silverado that was struck were also hospitalized and treated for injuries. All have since been released. ”

A Bolt against Fusion and Silverado? And did pretty well in this case…

It sounds like the Bolt is a real tank, although it sucks the other people died. 🙁

“But every Tesla fatality has made headlines, even though there have been far fewer per capita.

“Maybe not literally ‘every,’ but you see my point.”

It is literally every single one. Even reports of fatal accidents from China, which don’t generally get reported here.

And yeah, the media certainly does love to imply that “Autopilot” (they actually mean AutoSteer, but what do they care about actual facts?) is responsible for every accident, even when the facts rather strongly suggest otherwise.

Media attention is a two-edged sword. Tesla lives by free media attention to promote its sales, and they die by free media attention, in cases such as this poor review from Edmunds.com.

Fortunately, Model 3’s are selling too fast for any one message to dominate. If Edmunds has “keycard” (not Android) issues, and trouble going into forward and reverse, anyone can look at what thousands of others are saying. Do they, also?

Model 3 has hugely redeeming virtues, that get past a lot of this stuff. Not everything, though. Not surprising to me, was the negative reaction to interior ergonomics. But there, I suspect Elon/Franz knew they were giving up demand, to define their car.

Agreed fully. Thanks!

I agree that it’s very difficult to figure out the truth when just about everyone reporting on Tesla (and that’s a lot of media outlets) has a significant skew. It’s one of those companies that (partially by design, in my opinion) is very polarizing. Combine being a relatively new player in an established industry that changed one of the fundamentals of their products compared to others, a futuristic “techy” feel, an outspoken CEO, and deliberate efforts to run the company differently than others in the same field. All of this makes for compelling journalism. Today’s reader just has to sort through the fanboys and the doubters to find the truth. And the exciting thing from a story perspective is there are still possibilities for Tesla to be either an incredible success that defines modern and future transportation and energy, or a crushing failure that collapses into bankruptcy and ends up being a stepping stone for other companies which get it right.

Well said!

Strongly agree.

In particular, I would stress the fact you mentioned that we have no idea how the “Tesla Story” will play out. I strongly suspect it will be a merger with Apple, Google, or Amazon. The questions in that scenario would be: What happens to the battery manufacturing? Is it part of the merger or spun off? And what happens to Musk? Does he agree to stay on for something like 6 or 12 months?

One of the big draws of Tesla is that they’re definitely not like other car companies, from their cars, how they design them, to their company-owned stores. That can be a refreshing break from the old guard, and it can also turn into an extended explanation for why the legacy companies do at least some things a certain way: It works.

Please. This is the standard rumor now, that Elon will step down. He is hardly a spent force. Apple would be a great example of that, their entrepreneurial force died with Steve Jobs. Elon’s biggest problem is he wants to do to much in this lifetime. However, he does more before breakfast than Tim Cook does all year.

I think it is worthwhile to ask what that skew might be. With SA, its clear: A list of stock shorters want the stock to go down. With the Wall Street Journal (and perhaps others) they have a lot invested in Tesla’s failure because they have predicted it for a long time and don’t want to admit failure.

Are there examples on the other side? Sure, the Tesla fan boys shouting down any perceived insult, and anything from Evanex is fairly tiring.

Big Oil also has it in for Tesla. The EV revolution threatens the dominance of Big Oil in the energy sector, and Tesla is leading the EV revolution.

Also, Elon/Tesla’s message favors a pro-“green” agenda. So between threatening Big Oil and being perceived as promoting the “green” cause, that gives a strong motive for far-right think tanks to generate a lot of anti-Tesla FUD as part of their anti-“green” propaganda.

Let’s not forget that GOP nominee Romney once called Tesla one of President Obama’s “failures” during a presidential debate! Yeah, right… that’s the kind of “failure” that most companies can only dream of becoming!

Plus, with all the reports of Russian troll farms participating in any controversial subject on American social network forums, we need to keep in mind that anyone posting divisive comments might be an agent for Russia. Especially anti-EV FUD, since Russia’s economy is so dependent on selling fossil fuel, which gives them a big incentive to favor anti-environmental propaganda.

> and anything from Evanex is fairly tiring.

I refuse to click on those articles. Promotions for Evanex masquerading as an article.

“there are still possibilities for Tesla to be either an incredible success that defines modern and future transportation and energy, or a crushing failure that collapses into bankruptcy and ends up being a stepping stone for other companies which get it right.”

And the best part is, whichever possibility comes to be, Elon still wins, as the mission is to accelerate sustainable transportation.

Yup, Tesla is a very polarizing car (maker). At least on the internet, but then again, what issue isn’t polarizing on the Internet. 😉

Keep vigilante, keep reporting!

Another Euro point of view

Indeed, out of my own experience I found out that it is rather difficult to get 100% fair/unbiased information about Tesla in English as there is such a conflict between Tesla as a company and Tsla as a stock, many Tesla US owners being also shareholders and for the rest Tsla (stock) is such an crowded short. Thus when I want a fair view I often go on European EV enthusiast forum where it is a lot less likely that people writing comments are either shareholders or shorts. Now on an English standpoint I would say that Insideevs is way above the lot as far as a fair overview of EVs (& Tesla) are concerned with Electrek and Cleantechnica trailing way behind. I guess the temptation as far as readers traffic and whatever kickbacks they can get by having a biased opinion is just to high for them to bear. So keep up the good work !!

Thanks so much.

That Electrek is fed material (TSLA) info, by Tesla, is also a stark point of separation from other EV websites. When you have that line, you try and keep it and it shows.

May be best to recalibrate on the level of Tesla stories posted. Not sure what it means when for every Bolt/Leaf/i3 story there are a dozen or more Tesla stories, seems like the bar for entry is much much lower, which makes it difficult for the reader to contrast between vehicles.

Well said Steven. This, indeed, is reaching an apex of stupidity. SA is dumping rumors and potpourri of mixed facts on a daily basis. The Wall Street Journal produced an incredible diss peice this morning with the fantastic conclusion that Elon was trying to push buyers to the $85k model of the car and that perhaps it was time to treat the reservation list as a fraud.

Trumpster-loving Murdoch owned rag WSJ is for awhile now not much better than his Faux News.

If he keeps it up it will get as bad as Seeking Liars.

And did you hear (on the street) they’re bringing back the market cap / per car ratio? Sure, Tesla’s production is going to double this year. But never mind deep state concepts, like “Pro Forma” analysis. Grab last year’s number, because that’s what stock prices represent. A snap shot of the past.
/S

Stock prices most definitely do not represent the past. They may fit with the past if the future is widely expected to be just like the past, but that’s very often not the case.

In theory, the price should reflect the expected value of owning a piece of the company, since that is what a share is. But in practice it seems to often represent merely whether people expect the stock itself to go up or down with no connection to any real world economics. And of course, as long as someone else pays even more than you did for a stock a bit after you bought it, your profit will be every bit as real regardless if the company you “invested” in actually generated profits or not.

So far Tesla hasn’t made any money and has spent far more than their revenue. Elon Musk on the other hand is considered to now be worth about $20 billion, of which a huge chunk is good Tesla shares…

Maybe you should stop reading reviews from paid media and start reading reviews from actual owners who overwhelming love their cars

We do both daily.

Go to Model 3 owners club and read the delivery thread for Model 3, in the delivery reports I read from the last month, only a couple were clean deliveries, all others had paint and body defects, and screens that freeze, there is a poll on there about bulging interior on the A Pillar, and it seems most customers have that problem… People love their car, but the quality is not terrific, and as an investor the warranty cost is painful.

My Leaf certainly has fewer problems but it also never has all of the extras and conveniences that Teslas have. Also my Leaf never got any worthwhile software updates and its software sucks. None of the dealers even understand my gripes because they have next to zero EV experience. So for me Leaf has been just another cheaper side Nissan with EV bits bolted on. Not that Im regretting anything but there certainly isn’t much reimagining of what a car could be when its a BEV – something that oozes through Teslas albeit not always in a positive way.

Leaves are in a class of their own. Better to compare Tesla Model 3 to early BMW 540i, early Porsche Boxter, early NAS Audi A3, all which had catastrophic engine problems. I’ve owned a Leaf and A3. The Audi couldn’t hold a candle to the Leaf.

I totally disagree. It must be compared to contemporary cars. And it’s not like recognizing a key card is an unsolved problem. The EV stuff – battery, power electronics, and to a lesser extent the motors – are Teslas strong points. It’s all the stuff that has zero to do with it being electric they constantly screw up.

Not having an instrument cluster has nothing to do with electric propulsion. Weird doors and silly door handles likewise. Or a huge screen.

You may like their reimagined cars or not, but you’re absolutely wrong to think it has anything at all to do with propulsion. It has everything to do with electronics and computers, but you need even more of that in ICE vehicles (because of the complexities of engine control units). Autonomy also is a matter of low-power electronics and software, not propulsion system.

Exactly my experience owning a 2015 VW eGolf for three years. What a relief when I got to trade it in for the Model 3 in january. 5400 miles of bliss and significant improvements over firmware updates without visiting a service center. The stupid VW car-net still sends me health updates for the car I sold. It was so bad, it would send me an sms each time after locking and walking away from the car that its doors would be unlocked, a delay of the message and ignorance on the devs to fix the associated user experience.

Well you mean other than the whole missing thermal management of the battery. If that’s not a major issue, then I don’t know what is.

How many “bars” do you have left in your 100k Leaf? What’s the fully charged range now?

Tesla batteries have been proven to degrade less than 1% per year. Leaf is the polar opposite due to poor design choices.

My Leaf loss nothing in 3 years. I never fast charged it and it never needed mechanical attention in 35k miles.

So your Leaf is breaking the laws of physics. Good for you.

No, it means that it loss less than a full bar. Range was always slightly over 80 miles give or take a couple of miles.

The first bar represents about 15% though, so “nothing” then means just “maybe less than and not much more than 15%”.

Get an ODBII adapter and LEAF spy and check your SoH.

Tester, I have lost 1 bar on my Feb 2014 build car. About in the ballpark for what I knowingly signed up for, so I’m satisfied with that. Everything else on the car has been bulletproof. No issues. No “rebooting” the car, no flakey door handles or keys, super quiet.

Software isn’t as flashy as the Tesla, but it’s a car for driving around, not a rolling media centre.

Tesla has done the infrastructure right, but the design choices and crappy validation of said design (both hardware and software) hasn’t inspired confidence in me for the Model Y. Really the only thing keeping me hopeful for the Y is the charging network, the thought that they might learn from their mistakes, and the absolute awesome factor that they only make EVs and are pulling the rest of the industry along with them.

RE: “rolling media center”
While split-screening traffic navigation with qtes.la’s weather radar is an awesome display to have up, the Model S browser still sucks for throughput and access. I’m too much a Pandora die-hard, to give Tesla streaming the knod, either.

The model s browser has recently been updated. And it is just as fast as my iPad air. But still no video support. Which is fine since my eyes is on the road not the screen.

Why do you need a browser or a screen, if you dont need videos, as your eyes are on the road?

Leaf has one problem. The battery.

And its a very big problem since the battery is the single most expensive part of the car.

Reading your blog. Very interesting!

I’ll take a Tesla with some software bugs and a solid battery, than a Leaf with a rapidly degrading battery.

I will say Nissan puts together a really good car.

I sat in Model 3 yesterday with a loose panel and it was a huge turn off. I was the inside of the B Pillar.

Well why would I be impressed.

“an 8 hour drive from the nearest service centre.” – That will likely change by the time the Y is revealed, if not by the time it starts delivery.

Course Leaf has less issues. Have you seen it’s infotainment system? Basically off the shelf Chinese parts. No real software, no AI, no programming.

From I know all leafs have an overheating problem with the batteries that reduces his life. A car from 2011 is likely to have 73% when a Tesla keeps his longeti to 90%
Nissan is aware of the problem, it is a question of cost and the last model won’t solve the problem.

also, all except for the vanity mirror are software and will be fixed with OTA update

Not necessarily, wireless tech can be notoriously buggy for things like the Bluetooth phone entry and such. Maybe work around it with software, but doesn’t mean there isn’t a hardware issue.

Yes I wonder about that too, Tesla hooked into a notoriously buggy tech with the blue tooth key thing. However, I can’t help but think they can do better. The blue tooth hookup to android is buggy in other ways. For example, my bolt can transfer a call to the car, as in walk up on a phone call and it will flip to the car speakerphone. Also Tesla won’t play media from the phone for me anymore. It did it once, but never again. To me this indicates they just need to work on the issues. Its is better with Iphone? Likely. The difference being they put more work into that solution.

Try to pair your phone once again, it usually helps on bt bugs.

Bluetooth is buggy because there’s a million ways to implement it and nearly impossible to test that device combinations work well together. It’s very easy to make two specific devices that function together, because you control how both behave. What’s hard is making a device that world well with every other device including future ones.

NFC is a much simpler thing and if you consider key cards at office buildings you’ll know this has worked quite well for a couple of decades now! It’s ridiculous that Tesla somehow manages to botch even something this simple and mature, and release the product with such embarrassing faults.

Something is very wrong in how Tesla does software. And probably hardware as well. There is no excuse for this level of poor quality, in my opinion.

I know OTA can fix many things. But the real issue here is the car was rushed to market. Things that can be fixed via OTA updates wouldn’t have even been issues on a traditional car. Tesla knows they have a closing window for success. I remember back in 2014/15 everyone was laughing at the large manufactures about their 2020 plans and how far out front Tesla was. Tesla isn’t as far out as people had wished and the other guys know how to design, test and build cars and crazy rates.

I agree, and why they ship this to owners first. They are more tolerant of this sort of thing.

The reservations were a bit of a double edged sword, they showed Tesla how much they needed to build the gigafactory and brought in investor money, but they also showed other manufacturers that they needed to be on the EV bandwagon.

Where Tesla still leads the race is charging infrastructure and possibly autopilot if they get it working better. I don’t think they have to worry too much for another generation of EVs.

Other companies are all coming with them, but looking at 50k per year for most models instead of higher volume like the 3.

But we haven’t seen any of them yet. They will have their own difficulties, eg finding batteries. So far we have seen lans for limited production numbers for these expected EVs.

You must have missed the multi billion dollar deals VW has signed up for as well as LG Chem. I think GM and VW have their battery supplies in order for their planned output.

Yes, VW does look like it’s getting serious about large scale EV production. Too bad it’s the only legacy auto maker for which that it true!

But what Tesla bashers don’t seem to understand, or pretend not to, is that for most of us who are Tesla fans, we became fans for what Tesla has actually accomplished, not for what it promises or touts. If VW or some other legacy auto maker starts making compelling EVs and selling them in large numbers, then we will become fans of VW too! Or at least, a lot of us will.

For example, I’d love to be a fan of GM, for its Bolt EV! But I can’t, since GM has chosen to limit its production so far below what the market would bear if they would ramp up production. Of course, to do that, GM would have to invest heavily in battery production, as Tesla and BYD have, and as VW apparently is now doing. At least they are according to reports, but it’s hard to believe anything from VW after so many EV vaporware claims plus Dieselgate!

Yeah, GM is really a mixed bag. On the one hand they’re arguably in the top 2 in terms of EV tech (and you can argue number 1 either way with Tesla). But on the other hand they’re not really pushing the tech at all. Just giving Europe and Canada what they want would easily double, if not triple current production.

It wouldn’t have helped much with the poor build – Tesla has to learn by doing – but the software could and should have been a lot better.

Can Tesla fix the uncomfortable back seat OTA?

yep, it’s in the new code drop along with the new brake pads.

The “lightweight” brake pads aren’t a huge problem for 98% of Tesla owners, but I hope that the performance models get heavy duty pads that can stand up to a track day, or two. It wouldn’t hurt for the heavy duty pads to be add ons that fit the non-performance Tesla’s, as well.

They are not a problem for anyone 99.9% of the time. They’re only a problem that one time when you need to stop quickly in an emergency.

And…90% of the time you need to do that, was because you drive too fast, were Tailgating, or not paying attention! Maybe the remaining 10% is really an “Emergency!” Like a Moose leaped up a bank, in front of you!

Yeah but even if that’s the case it doesn’t mean it’s not an issue. For that matter I could have gotten away with never wearing my seat belt in my life, but I still always put it on. Likewise, personally my life wouldn’t be different if cars didn’t have air bags. That doesn’t mean I’d even consider buying one without them.

Hopefully they’ll come up with a solution that uses the existing caliper carriers and rotor retention schemes. The nice thing about BMW M-series (and Audi S/RS upgrades) gear is that you can often retrofit the newer, more-capable bits onto an earlier series car.

Yea, turns out the Model Y is OTA 😉

Exactly! It just “Expands” the Model 3, on command!

Not only that. Rumor has it Model Z will be revolutionary and actually consists exclusively of software.

Eliminating the hardware completely has the huge benefit that EVERYTHING becomes fixable as an OTA update.

Sure! They will initiate a Teleportation escape for you!
😂

Thank goodness most of these are software issues and can be resolved over the air.

Not a big deal?!? When the car can’t engage drive it hardly qualifies to be considered a car at all. It’s like saying a phone that fails to turn on is annoying but not a big problem, when it’s add serious as it can get except for actively killing you (exploding, brake failures)…

The keycard is also an issue that can readily lead to being completely stranded, so I think that’s very serious as well.

And the stereo thing? It’s not just annoying, but humiliating and embarrassing! I don’t want my neighbors hating me because my car wakes up the whole building randomly at night. Nor could I drive with the sound at maximum; my tinnitus is bad enough as it is and anyway it’s unsafe in many situations. Again an absolute deal-breaker kind of issue.

If these were extremely rare I could accept a small risk one of them would hit me. But they had all on the same car in a short time, which means they are extremely unlikely to be rare at all.

Seems mostly software related that can be fixed over the air

The danger with those issues is that Tesla will have to spend insane amounts on warranty claims.

Their warranty costs are declining.

Stop making stuff up.

Dude, can you read the 10K, Warranty cost almost doubled in Q12018 over Q1 2017???

Tesla Warranty costs reported in Q1 2018 are nearly double same QTR 2017, and remember 2017, Q1 is when Model X was having tons of problems.

These service and support costs will eat them up. No dealers means all the hard and soft costs are on the Tesla income statement. It’s also why the gross margins are over-stated

With nearly double the vehicles under warranty…imagine that.

No that is bad, really bad. Double the warranty claims on double the volume mean the new cars are just as bad as the early ones. So they are not making progress.
They are scaling their warranty claims on service delivery network and group of technicians that cannot scale the way manufacturing scales. What takes seconds to install on a car on the line can take hours to get to on a fully assembled vehicle, and each time you take off things like interior panels new problems tend to be created (rattles, gaps, missing pieces). This smacks of GM back in the early 1980s.

Serial Tesla basher “Dave” said:

“Tesla Warranty costs reported in Q1 2018 are nearly double same QTR 2017, and remember 2017, Q1 is when Model X was having tons of problems.”

Gosh, with Tesla now selling lots more cars per month than it ever did before, its warranty costs have gone up too.

Imagine that! 🙄

Only a serial Tesla FUDster would try to paint an increase in the number of cars on the road as a bad thing!

“Figures don’t lie, but liars do figure.” — Anonymous

Sales were up 10% Warranty cost up 90% Hmmmm… Like I told you Pu-Pu, disprove my numbers rather then just spread insults and accusations..

Yeah, they’ll need to double the garage bays to get all those brake pads done. /S

Issues so far appear to fit the “Ranger”/OTA strategy, perfectly. I hear “brake pad” and think “When’s my next run session, and where are my pliers”. But, please, go on about the “insanity”.

What someone REALLY needs to do is look into the vampire losses the Model 3 (and Teslas in general) suffer from that no other EV seems to be afflicted by. Edmunds found a 25% (!) difference between what the car reported being used and what was pulled from the wall. The EPA accounts for charging losses in its fuel economy numbers, but the vampire losses are not accounted for. Scan a Tesla forum and you’ll easily find reports of owners saying they are losing “X miles per hour/day” with their car just sitting parked. And cases where owners park at an airport with a healthy charge and come back a couple weeks later to find their Tesla is completely dead.

That’s not the definition of “vampire loses”.
I have a BMW i3 and it too, reports it needs 50% of battery to charge, and yet it takes .5 to 1 kWh more than expected from the wall charger. That’s charging loss or charging inefficiency.

Vampire loses are where the car is parked and it’s still using energy. And that could be from battery heating or cooling, or just general system monitoring, and it’s nowhere near 25% battery capacity loss.

Go to the comments on the Edmunds page. Read the one from “actualsize” (Edmunds) and one a couple down from “will_t3”

If it’s a non-fixable problem, (i.e. the clock’s ticking, your meter is running — on or off the charger) then does it really matter what you call it?

Of course it matters what you call it. It’s called “language”, and we use it to communicate information and ideas. But if you want, you can call it “glory”, like Humpty Dumpty. And just like him, nobody will have any idea what you’re talking about.

mx15, your BMW i3 can be parked for months with nearly no vampire loss. The i3 battery essentially goes into a cold mode when you power down. I’ve left on 2 month trips in the middle of winter to come back to a nearly identical %.

My Leaf has been similar

Same with the e-Golf. I think after being parked for 1 month my Leaf lost about 1-2% and the e-Golf basically nothing.

If Tesla hasn’t fixed the constant drain issues that’s very alarming and disappointing to me. I work out of my home and frankly my car ends up sitting more often than not, so a vampire drain would be a very serious issue to me.

Model S was notorious for using 250 watts. Continuously.

Is, not was.

Get a life why don’t you

“Was” is the critical word there. Tesla has reduced the S vampire loss rate by a large margin.

That’s been hard to quantify– Like most things Tesla you read all kinds of varying reports. Real world “mileage per KW-hour” is dropping into the 2’s , by some reports, which is pretty terrible (IONIQ users are reporting numbers that begin with a “6”). Long Term Testers are coming in at about 3 on the Model 3, which is also not very efficient.

time will tell, but the fact remains that Tesla have made some “inefficient” design choices.

250 watts is a considerable improvement from the 1840 watts I calculated using tesla’s own data for the NYTimes Broder overnight experience. Of course, amazingly there has not been a case of this test being duplicated at such low temperatures with a ‘modern’ tesla. We get frankly JOKE articles saying how great the performance is in the ‘extreme cold’, being defined as 40 deg F or HIGHER in the sunshine!. That’s San Diego – centric. As far as the 25% difference between what is reported by the car, and what is measured by the Revenue Meter on the side of your home, that is typically the way all automakers report electricity usage. All automakers assume the ‘charged battery’ is just there and starts with that figure, so that Charging Losses are ignored, yet Discharging losses are counted. 25 % seems a bit high…. The highest I’ve seen so far during hot weather for my BOLT ev has been around 14%, but then the Bolt ev seems carefully designed for high-efficiency under all conditions, commensurate with any heating deemed necessary for battery longevity. Of course a further enhancement in the Bolt ev would be to have Mitsubishi ‘HYPER’ heat pumps that… Read more »

“Real world ‘mileage per KW-hour’ is dropping into the 2’s , by some reports, which is pretty terrible (IONIQ users are reporting numbers that begin with a ‘6’).”

Cherry-pick figures much, dude?

Yes, the Ioniq Electric is a very energy-efficent car… altho the difference isn’t nearly as much as your outlier figures suggest. The Ioniq Electric is also a very low-powered car. If you compare a classic VW Beetle to a high-performance gasmobile, you will get a similar discrepancy in MPG. So what? All you’ve proved is that the Model 3 is a significantly higher performance car than the Ioniq (0-60 in 8.0 seconds, vs. 4.6 seconds for the Model 3).

That’s not better engineering on the part of Hyundai; it’s just putting a much weaker motor into the car. If you drove a Model 3 with an acceleration limited to what the Ioniq Electric can do, then surprise! you’d get a similar result for miles per kWh.

This is the real scary thing on these cars– the Model S has been notorious for burning 250 Watts 24 hours a day in the garage. The less people drive their cars, the WORSE their economy has been.

Tesla really needs to get their house in order on this front. They are kind of trading on the assumption that no one actually pays attention to what their utility power meter says— but generally it says that you are paying for A LOT more power than makes it to the wheels.

GM, HYundai, Nissan cars don’t have this problem to this extent.

Links, please. Not to the very first 2012 cars. I want to get me to some of those fresh “250 Watts 24 hours a day” claims.

Complete fabrication. Show me some evidence. The most I’ve lost going 3 days without using my S was 2 miles and during that time it had a software upgrade.

So I guess you imagine a software upgrade is an energy-demanding thing?!? Goes to show how little clue you have about the matter. Even your phone can do that using a negligible percentage of its single Li-ion cell (of about 3 Ah, soooo à couple percent of 12 Wh, let’s say 0.5 Wh which is of course 0.0005 kWh to over-estimate the required energy a good deal!)

Car software is no “heavier” to download or install. And the network is the same (cellular data, 3G or 4G).

You’re using MUCH more energy for one average second of driving than the car ought to use on even the most extensive software update.

240 post thread on “Model 3 crazy vampire drain” on the Tesla Motors Club forum. Tell me how it’s a complete fabrication again? Includes one owner that STILL observers a 20 mile per day drain (~5 kWh per day). Imagine a Gen 1 Volt owner with the same drain. Half their battery would deplete every day with the car doing nothing! That’s insane.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-3-crazy-vampire-drain.106750/

Some guy calling himself “Rafael Sabatini” said:

“…the Model S has been notorious for burning 250 Watts 24 hours a day…”

Altho this is a screen name new to me, I’m already starting to detect the definite whiff of serial Tesla bashing FUD from his posts.

250 Watts for 24 hours a day would completely drain a Model S85 battery pack in 14.17 days. I’m fairly sure nobody has reported a vampire drain that bad, even from the Model S before the software upgrade which reduced vampire loss.

Or, long story short: That’s B.S.

serial Tesla bashers “Bro1999” said:

“Edmunds found a 25% (!) difference between what the car reported being used and what was pulled from the wall.”

So… you’re counting charging losses — which are unavoidable in any EV which charges from the wall, including your beloved Bolt EV — as “vampire losses”.

Dude, that is not what “vampire loss” means. If you’re going to post FUD, then at least make some attempt for it not to be pure nonsense!

A 15% charging loss would be normal. If the loss is 25% — and it seems unwise to take your word for that, or anything else regarding Tesla or its cars — then that would indeed indicate some “vampire losses” are occurring, but certainly not at the rate of 25%!

I wonder what the vampire loss is for the Bolt EV? Hmmm? Somehow I doubt you want to talk about that.

With the recent news that Tesla are trying to “bump up” the sales price to $85,000 on this platform it raises the question as to whether they can convince people to pay 2.5X more than the $35K car promised for a car of this quality level.

Reminds me of the time GM tried this by slapping a Cadillac badge, and Cadillac price, on a cheap Chevy.
They sold a few, but generally people saw through the ruse.

The difference is it was a cheap Chevy trying to be sold at a higher price.

This offers the highest performance mass market EV platform available. So it would be like basing the cheap Chevy on the Corvette platform.

Er, this is a platform meant to be a $35,000 price point, no?
That’s Chevy/Toyota money…

This is a cheap Chevy being “prettied up” to Audi A8 money.
Don’t see that working, but I guess time will tell.

Not really. The $35k price relies entirely on a future price drop from current battery costs. Tesla is selling high optioned cars at the moment because they can and should to save/make money. Unlike legacy auto makes, Tesla can’t afford to loose money on the first two years of production and then look to make it back over the last 3 or 4 years of a model run. It’s a different business model.

Tesla’s announced plans were for a $35K car in mid-2017.
It’s now a year later, and the car actually available is $50K (Long range + “premium” interior + $1K bullshit fee for non-black color), production quality is still very much hit & miss, and there’s still no firm date for the $35K car;
there some noise about needing to hit production targets first, so that the earliest possible date might be Sept. this year, maybe. Personally, I think mid-2019 is more likely except for a tiny amount just to prove a point). WTF should any real non-fanboi customer who paid a deposit in 2016 care about the excuses?

It’s refundable. Stop crying.

VW charges $3,500 for a nicely dressed paint job on the e-Golf, not $1,000… So… You were saying…?

Plus, the darn car is ready for me sooner than I planned on it, in my own game plan, of “Late 2018”, as they meantioned to us previously!

Disingenuous … many cars can be options to >2x their base price.

OK> I’ll call that bet.
Please list any $35,000 car that can be optioned up to $85,000.
Take all the time you need.

BMW 3 series

Can you? I could only get to $69k

Did you option an M3? They go up around $90k

That’s a $65.5k vehicle that will set you back $83k (excluding taxes) if you add all the options. That’s not a big jump.

Mercedes C Class

Dodge Challenger

Audi A4 vs RS4.

A different model is not an ‘option’.

But an extra ~25KWh (or ~125HP, @5C) doesn’t make a different model. Have I got it right?

They aren’t different models.

Nix – Yes RS4, M3/4, AMG C63 are all different models (don’t believe me, research them).

Options – are just that, your BLIS, nav, autopilot, stereo options, seat warmers, etc.

I believe all of the confusion is coming from the person that used the words “optioned up” incorrectly.

I don’t need to research them, I’ve already owned S and M cars. They are the same model like Subaru BRZ and Toyota 86 are the same model, with different build sheets. And like Lexus and Toyota used to have overlap models with different build sheets and different badges but were the same under the skin.

The RS4 B8 is the same B8 chassis as the A4 B8, different build sheet.

That is why they are both referred to as B8’s.

Same for C’s and 3’s. Everything else is just marketing mumbo jumbo to make you justify handing over your cash. And believe me, owning an S or M car really does quickly separate you from your cash. AMG’s are even worse.

Performance Model 3 competes with M3, AMG, RS4 and base Model E, not Accords and Camrys. It’s has two motors and is supposed to not over heat on a track. These are massive upgrades if true.

Performance Model 3 will compete with M3, RS4 and base Model E. Musk says that it will beat all on the track he wasn’t referring to Accords and Camrys. Sure his claims could be entirely false/disproved.

> Please list any $35,000 car that can be optioned up to $85,000.

Why do you even care? Is Tesla forcing people to buy these options? Some people are unbelievable in their complaints.

More choices is a positive.

And the type of option being offered makes a huge difference in it’s cost.

Yeah, the Tesla bashing here has reached ridiculous levels. The problems Edmunds.com is reporting does indicate a serious quality control problem at Tesla. Maybe Edmunds.com got a particularly bad example; lemon laws were created for a reason, and they were created long before Tesla started making cars. But Edmunds.com does point to some real problems with the Model 3. How about we discuss those, and not the ridiculous suggestion that a car aimed at the same market as the Audi A4 and the BMW 3-Series, should have an average sale price of $35,000? Let’s remember that all auto makers cite a “MSRP” that is for the base stripped-down version, a version which few people actually buy. It’s fair to “ding” Tesla for delaying in putting the lowest price version into production, but that’s a consequence of the entire ramp-up of Tesla Model 3 production going much slower than planned, not some nefarious evil plan on the part of Tesla to force people to buy a higher priced version of the TM3 than they want! The truly sad thing is that the anti-Tesla FUDsters, by repeating their Big Lies over and over again, have actually made some headway in convincing people… Read more »

The sad part about the Cadillac ELR was it was a great car – just overpriced. If it would have been $10k – $15k over the Volt it could have been a success.

That’s a great example– even with the Cadillac badge on it, they couldn’t support that huge price differential.

Here, Tesla has gone to great pains to portray it as “an everyman, $35K car”. Can you get $85K for it without an “M-division” brand patina, huge fender flares and air dams and a spoiler the size of the USS Nimitz?

But why do you care?

So you are saying that Tesla buyers can’t be suckered by fancy badges and silly trim kits and boy racer spoilers (unlike BMW buyers) so Tesla puts all the money into the actual performance parts under the skin that puts out the performance?

And that is bad how? What is wrong with the classic “sleeper” formula for performance? Audi did it with the original B5 S4. Ford did it with classic Mustangs. The list goes on.

Nothing about your statement is accurate. I picked up my new ELR for $5000 more than I paid for my new 2011 Volt. The car was a BIG SUCCESS. The car was manufactured for 9 months in 2014, and 3 months in the 2016 model year before the EV-Hating Jerk Johann DeNysschen prematurely killed it. You know, the guy, while at AUDI has been quoted as saying “EV’s are Dumb. People should drive Clean Diesels.”. That Sentiment ended up costing parent VW plenty – and they are still paying, along with sick kids in London and Paris breathing in too many diesel particulates. DeNysschen has finally been fired from GM. About 3 years too late but better late than never. While it was current, the ELR, in only 1 year of production, outsold the Tesla Roadster’s Multiple years of production, and had about 10 times the sales of that new JOKE of a car, the PHEV CT6, that apparently can only go around 23 miles on a new VOLT battery – which while listed at being 53 miles in the new VOLT, many owners easily get 70. I test drove the CT6 PHEV, and it drives like a Slushomatic connected… Read more »

The ELR may have been a great car, but it was a huge market failure. They couldn’t sell them. Like the EV1, there is no surprise it got the axe.

The Tesla roadster had a fixed production quantity. Not a car to compare to.

It matters not to me what arm-chair quarterbacks say who haven’t had either Car. I’ve purchased both a Roadster and an ELR. As far as a ‘fixed production’ that was only true for the states, and it could have been manufactured for other markets and/or one of the other more modern Lotus Models which still legally can be sold here could have been used as the base.

Apparently the CT6 PHEV is considered a success. If so, the ELR is 10x that since its sales were 10x those of the ‘successful’ PHEV.

Frankly – I don’t think you have a clue about what you are talking about since that Chinese car isn’t even selling well in China.

Yup. It’s an indication of Bill Howland’s disassociation from reality that he calls the Cadillac ELR a “success”. Another indication is his refusal to recognize that the reason he got such a low, low price for his ELR is that the dealer needed to get rid of a car that was no longer being make and had been sitting on the dealer lot too long, even if that meant selling it at a significant loss.

“Maybe they figure it’s a small price to pay for such a technologically advanced car.”

Edmunds fails to recognize that Tesla 3 is still considered by most buyers as advanced car. There isn’t any true competition to Tesla when they are the only one with charging network. Like it or not, you will face those problems if you want an EV with decent charging network.

Based on how some Tesla S still suffer those problems, I doubt they will get fixed straight out of production any time soon. Such is the price we pay if willing to drive EV. Non Tesla EV suffer from Free charging SUCKS!!!!!

It’s so advanced that it can’t even engage drive. And the autonomous stereo makes the buyer look like the biggest idiot that ever lived.

Frankly I don’t understand why anyone would feel the need to defend such useless quality. Especially if they care about Tesla!

What is so advanced about it vs. other from-scratch designed BEVs? Larger battery in itself isn’t an advanced feature. Neither is forgoing a practical hatch simply to get a silly expensive large piece of glass to fit, or about 3x the amount of small DC motors, or using one large touchscreen for everything which is a single point of failure and isn’t even adjustable in tilt/swivel.

If you think the Tesla Model 3 doesn’t represent advanced EV tech, then by all means buy a Mitsubishi i-MiEV. Because it doesn’t matter how good or bad the tech is in the car, right? And the i-MiEV is much cheaper! 🙄

More biased extreme pro-Tesla “FUD”. You just spend all day on here white-knighting for Tesla, don’t you? Cute. Of course, those who actually know about the engineering and manufacturing know that Tesla’s merits with their cars center around the battery implementation/design in EVs. Just about all else is subpar compared to other automakers (systems, design other than battery related). For the average price now, Tesla still uses many low-end suppliers’ products for areas other than their specialty.

Only a matter of time before the years of research Mercedes-Benz and VW’s groups have done and their vast networks of superior supplier relationships cast a shadow over Tesla. All they really need is a comparable battery design and production (which I know Daimler already has in place for a mass-market EV). The German companies do everything else better. Tesla, in the long run, will likely end up turning to supplying other manufacturers with battery implementation and production as a large part of their strategy.

I wish only the best for the company and will support them to the max, but this is a reality.

Currently 2 months and 3,000 miles into our Model 3… love the car… only issue we have had foe a short period of time is the mobile Bluetooth Key sometimes finicky which seemed to have been resolved with OTA software update.

This is impossible and you clearly should have bought a FWD econohatch Bolt with a no charging network. Just ask bro!

Last time I had my Bolt updated, I did it OTA. Took about 5 minutes, and fixed several UI bugs that I had been experiencing. Thanks GM!
No need for OTA updates to fix improperly tested, poorly programmed brakes so far.

So was the OTA to fix the improperly tested, poorly programmed battery pack? Or did you have to go in to the dealership for that?

20,000+ miles and 0 problems with my battery. I haven’t even gotten any of the battery software updates yet.
And speaking of battery failures, your precious Model 3 isn’t immune either. Barely 1 week old 3 needs battery pack replaced. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/my-new-model-3-has-faulty-battery-needs-replacement.116109/

I own a 2017 model s and I hate how the Tesla cult defends Tesla on these issues. In 20 years of owning cars I only had to take my Japanese cars in twice for warranty repairs. In 6 months of owning a Dec 2017 delivered model S I have already had 6 issues. Yes they were minor but it speaks volumes about the build quality. (not to mention the loaner I received had build quality issues as well)

I should add my issues which include cracked B pillar, faulty door handle, vibrating front passenger door speaker, yellow banding on the LCD screen and squeaky dash, headliner and front passenger door

Tesla fan boys just a buncha dlck riders! FACTS.

In addition to Edmunds, Green Car Reports is reporting that Consumer Reports is not recommending the M3. Having two experienced and reasonably objective product review publications reach similar conclusions is fairly bad news any way you cut it.

I like Tesla. I own stock in Tesla. I want them to succeed and I think they will — eventually. But I have to make decisions in the present also. I put $1K down but got it back and didn’t buy a 3 because although we are financially OK, I really can’t afford to have this many problems with one of the most costly things I purchase.

I’ve been driving EVs since 2013 and am sold on EVs, so I don’t have a problem waiting for things to improve. But the mass market car-buying public is going to be a tougher customer.

If you’re set on buying a Tesla in the future, let the early adopters/Elon cultists be the guinea pigs to flesh out all the production issues. In a couple more years, Tesla should have all the kinks worked out of the Model 3 line! My last sentence is a solid as an Elon “in 3-6 months” promise. 🙂

I see Chevrolet still hasn’t worked out the problem with the Bolt EV’s front seats…. and there was that problem with the Bolt EV’s battery pack that resulted in a recall.

Tell us again how GM is so much better than Tesla with their build quality, Bro1999… for some reason, I keep forgetting. 🙄

hpver – Well said and especially the last paragraph.

“In addition to Edmunds, Green Car Reports is reporting that Consumer Reports is not recommending the M3.”

Oh, so what? Consumer Reports has lost all credibility with their reviews and recommendations (or not) for Tesla Cars. CR even flip-flopped on recommending the Model S just because there was a delay in the promised OTA upgrade for the automatic braking system! Then of course they re-recommended it after Tesla released that update, because that gave CR an excuse to run another Tesla-related article. 🙄

Edmunds.com giving a bad review to the Model 3 indicates something serious. CR giving a bad review to a Tesla car just means it’s a Thursday. In a month or three, CR will give a positive review of the same car, talking about how “improved” it is since their original review, so they can sell even more magazines.

This seems typical for something rushed to production, skipping a lot of internal testing, and using early adopters and employees to shake the bugs out.

By 2020 this should be all worked out.

“… intermittment screen and backup camera function, navigation bugs, failure to recognize keycard, audio system independently turning on and off and up to full volume, ” —— ——- I’ve experienced issues similar to these in my Model 3 during my 18 days of ownership. If I had to count, I’d say once the screen went berserk, like a ghost was swiping it and pushing buttons (I took video). I had to hold both steering wheel buttons to reboot it. And one other time I got in, but the screen was just stayed black, even though the car was ‘running’. Again, I rebooted it. A couple times the backup camera just showed a black square. Solution is to close it, then open it again. I’ve also had a couple times where it didn’t recognize my phone, so I used the keycard. My phone is a Samsung Galaxy S8. It’s like the car is more of a computer than a car really. This is both bad and good. When it works, it’s amazing, but hiccups can cause grief. Would I trade my Model 3 for anything else? Heck no. I hope they work through these bugs, while also adding more features.

I didn’t realize you had bought a 3, congrats and enjoy it!

I don’t think anyone is arguing if the Model 3 is a good car. The issue is a lot of the issues you’re experiencing wouldn’t happen in another car. You being a EV enthusiast is willing to deal with the issues. Most people see a car as transportation only. They want it to get them for point A to B reliable and safely. They don’t want to reboot anything or take time to take it in to get fixed.

Somewhat agree. A lot of others cars just cant have the same issues because they don’t have the same capabilities or an equivalent system.

Not sure I follow your rationale here… aside from the Autopilot, my Leaf will do basically everything else, except the keyless entry and keyless start works 100% of the time, along with the door handles, the stereo, drive, reverse, etc. This is basic stuff they are screwing up. Shotgun software I guess.

The price point will capture many who like driving fun. It worked for VW. Why shouldn’t it work for an unflappable car, like a skateboard with tons of torque. No dive, under braking. Little, to no, roll in corners.

It was a long time ago, I had a 3,200 pound VW wagon. They’ve since climbed close enough to TM3’s weight, that weight-location may become the deciding factor.

Reminds of the joke floating around in the 90’s ? about what a help desk for cars would be like, if cars were like computers.

I’ve seen cellphone & tablet touchscreens show the same symptoms, but only after 2+ years of heavy use. Basically, the screen is registering phantom touches when there aren’t any. It’s most likely a bad production batch of the screens (that is, they weren’t sufficiently tested after production), or screens with a faulty design (not specc’ed to withstand an automotive environment in terms of vibration/temps.)

You should demand a screen replacement ASAP.

(Sometimes, cellphones/tablets have debouncing software (like physical computer keyboards do) that knows to ignore multiple presses that are too frequent, or have unreasonable press patterns; if the Model 3 has that, the software is mismatched to the screens they use)

My last brand new chevy Malibu had a ton of issues. There is no reason to post how junky most cars are. Everyone already knows and is complacent. My next car will be a Tesla and I’ll be happy to suffer through any minor problems longer than I could stand the Malibu.

My Chevy Volt was flawless other than 3 issues in 6 years. I had the common problem of the plastic bearing spacer that caused a whirring sound. It was replaced under warranty. I also had the screen not respond to certain button pushes (such as eco/comfort on the HVAC). And I had the screen reboot itself once while driving. My Model 3 seems to have more bugs, but it’s computer seems to be doing a lot more.

I have had consistent screen lockup issues with my Bolt, so this is not new.

Have you had the latest UI version updated? 14.5.0
The newest version fixes the screen freeze issues.

It reduced the problem, not fixed it.

All cars have problems, but it’s never so widely publicized. My dad’s Soul is a mess with fit and finish, but still an amazing car. My mom’s Impreza while great is having screen and braking issues. Problems with new cars, especially, abound, but it is to be expected unless it’s Tesla or Nissan or GM EVs. Then the press is to a whole different level.

the old adage with GM cars was always “never, ever buy the first model year of a series run”.
It would take at least a year’s production to get it all tweaked well. The 2002 Trailblazer was a recall nightmare– 2003 was a bit better, 2004 better still, but the 2005-7 cars were rock solid.

The same’s probably true with Tesla– the first year’s run are going to be tough… eventually the lore will probably be “stay away from a VIN # less than 20,000 or so on the Model 3”.

Fortunately, the early guys knew what they were getting into. And the later buyers with delivery dates out in 2019 will reap the benefit.

That was the adage for every Big 3 car maker’s cars back in the day.

Except that an awful lot of people claim they do NOT have any issues with their car. The LEAF may or may not be to your liking, and the lack of an active TMS may or may not be considereda design flaw, but there is little doubt that there are exceptionally few reliability or build quality issues. I believe the same is true of the e-Golf, the e-Up, the Ioniq, and the Zoe, to name a few EVs that certainly haven’t received a lot of negative press relating to quality.

There were issues reported with the early built Model S’s and Model X’s, too. I have to wonder whether there are actually more issues with the Model 3, or whether it’s just that they’re getting more press.

I read Edmund.com’s reviews of the Model 3; they seem a lot less forgiving of minor problems in the car than they did for the Model S. Edmunds.com had a “laundry list” of problems with their Model S, but at the end of their year-long test drive series of reviews, the reviewer said he hated to give up the car. I have a lot of respect for Edmunds.com, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the guy writing their Model 3 reviews is free from anti-EV bias.

For instance, the problem with the phone “key”. From what I’ve read, all phone “keys” work rather erratically. That’s not a problem with the car, it’s a general problem with cell phones and the “apps” written for them. Why would Edmunds.com single out a problem there, when that sort of thing is — at least according to many reports — perfectly normal and expected?

Cancelled my 2 year old day 7 M3 reservation 4 months ago, when Elon first pushed out the SR delivery until 2019 and let every higher priced model cut in line. Bought a new VW Golf ICE. Typically not highly rated for reliability. Haven’t had a single issue of any kind so far. 3 months and 6,000 miles. It hasn’t seen the dealer yet. Car doesn’t feel much if any smaller than the M3. Interior as nice as the current $50k M3, but cost 20k. In a few years I’ll look at Tesla again, but more likely will buy different EV to replace our other high mileage car. Waiting for a EV that can tow… and doesn’t cost 120k.

“Waiting for a EV that can tow”
People towing, usually do if to vacation, sometimes off-the-path and away from *infrastructure*.
If that’s you, you may as well wait for a fish that can run. That, or Workhorse’s EREV (40KWh usable) trucks.
SCPPA and Duke power utilities are due their prototypes, this summer.

Having gotten below 10mpg towing, I can predict how happy I’d be with only 100KWh. -Not very. Around town, being a “soccer Dad”. no prob.

Where I live a LOT of people tow now and then. They have boats that must be set to sea each spring and taken up again each autumn, gardens to “renovate” each spring, and furniture to transport from IKEA using one of the free-to-borrow hangers. Many use the tow bar simply for a bike rack, too.

And it’s not like towing is a hard technical issue. I think it is extremely annoying that almost no EVs have the option.

But you’re running on dinosaur juice. What a bummer!

2,000 miles/month means you drive on average 64 miles per day. If you’d got a used Ioniq instead you might not have needed to quick charge even once in this period… and saved a significant amount of money first on the purchase and second on running costs. You’d have much less future servicing to look forward to and a much lower likelihood of ever being roadside assistance. Best of all you could then run on sunlight or wind or nuclear, emitting minimal pollution anywhere and none at all where you’re driving. The only drawback is the second hand prices are nearly the same as for new cars, since demand isn’t nearly met by Hyundai…

If the Kona comes soon, as promised (I’m in Norway) I’ll probably jump on the bandwagon. Will keep my Tesla reservation as long as I can since the cost – so long as Tesla doesn’t go belly up – is just $10 per year, in case things improve or the market proves crazy enough that I can make money buying and quickly selling it again.

IONIQ shows how efficient these cars can be. It’s a great electrical design

The Ioniq Electric merely shows how energy-efficient a car can be if you put an inadequate motor into it. That’s no different than a gasmobile; a car with a small, under-powered motor makes the car more energy efficient simply by limiting its ability to accelerate quickly.

That’s not “great design”, it’s just being cheap.

Strange how only the legacy car magazines have all these problems. My model 3 from january has issues unlocking from mobile phone app sometimes, but that is about it. Never had an issue recognizing keycard, never had issues with any of the other things mentioned, just like items listed in consumer reports article… is this because they all got second hand early builds that people tried to get rid off?

+1 exactly

“legacy car magazines” – that’s a new one…
Will be interesting to see after KBB’s long term review of the Model 3 if they’ve experienced similar issues and if folks will group their review into the same “legacy car magazines” category.

KBB’s value is built around their contribution to the used vehicle market, in the valuation of used vehicles. Tesla sells more of its own used cars, choosing to move them themselves, and away from the value KBB provides. Sorry to get windy, but realize that when you sell a car that costs less to maintain, you want to “CPO” that car and warranty it for 4 more years, like no one else can. Tesla doesn’t need Kelly, and you should expect the “legacy” of this reality to influence Kelly’s review of the Model 3. Kelly doesn’t need Tesla, either.

Nothing you said gives Edmunds any incentive to give Tesla a poor review. It’s possible some car manufacturer paid off a few people in exchange for a really bad review. It doesn’t seem to me any more likely than the same possibility for any other car they review though. If Tesla’s ambitious plans all of sudden began to adhere to the equally ambitious timelines, they would be making a million cars a year by 2023. That’s about 1.3% share by unit, perhaps 2.5% by value. The notion that a manufacturer and Edmunds would conspire and risk their reputation in order to stop this seems to me simply too silly to take seriously, especially when you consider that there will in time be dozens upon dozens of other long-term tests and thousands of YouTube and blog and forum posts about the same, making such an effort to thwart the Model 3 extremely unlikely to succeed. It’s well known that Tesla has had many quality problems in the past. Elon himself had even said the company priority is to ship the product, not to endure it’s completely finished (read his biographies). That Model 3 was rushed is equally undeniable – July 2017,… Read more »

Kelly Blue Book is about as legacy as it gets!!! It was started by a guy with a Ford Model T dealership a century ago!! He recorded all his dealership/s sales and then published the results for other dealerships to use. For decades the only way to buy a Kelly Blue Book was to provide a dealer’s license. NADA was actually the first to allow libraries to purchase their guides (with yellow/gold covers) as a competitor to KBB’s little blue books.

Ah, the good old days before the internet. When if you wanted to find out car values you had to take a trip to the library to figure out the Stealership down the street was full of BS with their “discount” price on their used car that wasn’t a discount at all, but still well above book value. It’s funny that anybody thinks of KBB as anything but an ancient auto dealership insider legacy company.

Considering that all of the long term reviews from professional outlets seen to have had an array of issues, it seems more logical to say it’s strange only you haven’t had these issues (even though you have had issues, and not just the one you name, or else calling it “just about it” would be a very poor choice of words).

But it is of course possible that the magazines reserved earlier than you or with more options or otherwise got hold of very early cars. This hypothesis however doesn’t really chime with the idea that this is just software issues fixable OTA.

Never Had a single problem with our S 60 D – Had it for almost 2 years now – just saying

We should have our Model 3 in about one month. Sure, I’m a bit nervous we could get THE “lemon” (when someone has issues, he seems to have all). But let’s not forget that Tesla is a very young car company that’s already doing a lot of good things right. And, in the end, I rather take a chance with a young company that try to change things for better than be sure to screw the planet the “old ways”.

Another Euro point of view

“Tesla is a very young car company”, Agreed but taking that into account they do “brag” a lot & this is a double hedged sword. The latest piece of bragging was “our cars are the safest”. It is very complicated to make such an assessment as you invariably end up comparing apples and oranges. Anyway such a claim should not come from the manufacturer itself. I take it that tolerance to bragging is very much a cultural thing. Probably Japanese have a tolerance to bragging at the very bottom, as a northern European I take it we are yet a bit more more tolerant but yet despise it hard , now internet being a eye opener as far as cultural differences are concerned, it seems the US population is, in average, in a class of their own as regards tolerance to bragging.

Consumer Reports reported the Model S as the safest. And nothing in the present article says that the Model 3 is unsafe. It’s about “issues”, annoying ones, but nothing unsafe.

“Consumer Reports reported the Model S as the safest”

I don’t remember seeing that.

IIHS certainly didn’t rate the Model S as the safest. You are making up stuff…

Definitely true. To most Europeans it’s impossible not to cringe at Tesla’s very American chest-thumping ways, which to us seem uncivilised (because that’s what it actually is!)

What would you call “clean diesel”?

Don’t be. The current production run is solid. My M3 from last week is great.

OMG, IEV now (likely) has a bi-partisan posse of Model 3 owners. Congrats 😉

There is nothing wrong with being bi….

Even for partisans. Just sayin’ 😉

If the issues are just software problems, how is a lemon car even a possibility? Those few cars delivered with much fanfare in July 2017 should now run the same software as the car you’ll soon be getting.

Build quality and any other hardware issues obviously do imply lemons will exist (by pure random walk). But there’s a law protecting you then.

Good luck and hope you’ll enjoy your Model 3!

I actually cancelled my model 3 reservation today. I’ve driven pure EV as my only car for nearly 4 years now and I love the simplicity and trouble-free aspect of the cars I’ve had so far. Tesla’s are great, but trouble-free they are not. We’ve got a model S100D in the family, so I do have some experience of daily life with a Tesla.

For those that want the performance and autopilot Tesla brings, they are great cars. For me, who really just wants a no-problem long range EV with a good charging network, Tesla’s come with some negatives that for me, aren’t worth the cost of entry. ymmv.

I think this matches what I felt about the Model 3. Edmunds has had the vehicle for 4 months, so they received it back in January. That was back when they were basically hand assembling the car and had a lot of rework issues. I have said here before that if my reservation came up, I might consider asking to delay to a later car.

I got my car last week. Its a great car. The issues I have seen with the car are (according to Model 3 owners club) standard software issues and include:

1. Android phone stops working as a key until it is rebooted, sometimes multiple times.
2. (only one time) backup camera came up all black and stayed that way. Turning the car off and leaving it for an hour cleared that.

So now hand-building is to blame for issues claimed to be software problems. Tesla fans don’t seem to let logic get in their way when they feel the need to make up excuses for Tesla!

You can’t have it both ways, Bois. Either the issues are software bugs, and if so affect all the cars, or else there is at the very least a hardware component to them, and that’s not fixable OTA.

Logic and reason are like oil and water for the TSLA cultists. 🙂

To me this sounds as a faulty computer board. A hardware issue that results in corrupting memory and the computer starting to do random things. If it were a software glitch, everyone would suffer the same issues and it would be all over the internet. So yeah, if the computer starts to do random things, you get a pretty long list of issues, all traceable to one single defect.

I suspect the touchscreens have a bad production batch that causes many phantom keypresses that exercise the UI; I’ve seen identical problems several times with well-used cellphones & tablets after 2+ years.
The next likely cause is more of an issue: The touchscreen design is not specc’ed for the vibration of the automotive environments.

Edmunds is not having any luck with any of their EVs it seems. Their Chevy Bolt stranded them TWICE!!
https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/bolt-ev/2017/long-term-road-test/2017-chevrolet-bolt-double-stranding-leads-to-replacement-battery-software-change.html

Meanwhile, Motortrend stands by its car of the year award for the Bolt.
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/bolt-ev/2017/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-review-long-term-verdict/

Day 15. I’ve gone 1539 miles. I’m upset that the wheels are dirty. It happened when I drove the car down a dirt road. I’ll probably take it through a carwash for the second time within a few days (first carwash was on day 5).

I’m also upset with the lousy streaming service, podcasts service (no way to queue things up and subscribe as far as I can tell), and phone UI. Fixing the phone UI would make me not care about the other two. Fixing the other two would make me not care about the phone UI.

I wish there was a way to mute and unmute the navigation system without having to reach over to the far right of the screen (voice commands for that would be great.)

Could Tesla hurry up with FSD?

All ridiculous nits that I’m crazy for bringing up. OTA software update can and almost certainly will fix them all.

Buy a Chevrolet Bolt. Range and trouble free. And Costs less.

and looks and feels like a Honda Fit

> and looks and feels like a Honda Fit

Hilarious!

And that “MSRP from $37,495 USD” starting price is what kills it for me.

Which is an excellent car (but a smaller size class, so not a competitor to a Bolt).

Few months back I almost pulled the trigger on the Bolt and was about to cancel my Model 3 reservation. However, I saw the first Model 3 up close and sat in it and I was convinced. Model 3 blew my mind… amazing car and just gorgeous compared to the Bolt. Also convinced me that Big Auto is failing big time… really sad. I’ll wait and even forgo the full $7500 credit and more than willing to tolerate the little bugs.

If the Bolt was priced right, basically a Sonic with a battery, we would have one in our house next to the Tesla for a 2nd car. I’m not paying that much for that level of car.

That premise (“Sonic with a battery”) has definitively been discounted…

Different platform, different design center, different manufacturing facilities, different everything-except-the-badge, but you seem to be on a roll, so please continue.

The tiny Bolt (or Sonic with a battery) has more legroom and headroom compared to the large Model S. In both the front seat and back seat. Any questions?

And is technically inferior, weaker performance,

And looks that mean you’ll never feel any need to wash it!

This is ridiculous! I’ve had NO issues whatsoever. Every thing behaves as expected. Bugs? #FakeNews. Head-on collisions? #FakeNews. Battery catches on fire days after crash? #FakeNews Bad breaks? #FakeTest Bad headlights? Whatever, I only drive in the sunlight.
Disclaimer: I do not own a Tesla, but I am pretending I do.

The full volume blast is interesting as I was in the Chicago Tesla Showroom a month ago and noticed that twice. Read that the potential fix was to replace the touchscreen as it was registering fake touches. Hoping my July delivery is a better experience but also have comfort knowing Tesla has a high degree of customer service. Just hope their service centers do not get buried.

Which showroom did you see it in? I’d like check it out in person one of these days. The only ones I’ve seen out at Highland Park were sold and awaiting pickup. No display yet.

Tesla needs to lemon law Edmond’s car and do a teardown on it.

My wife really wants us to get a Tesla. The local EV standard in this household that Tesla is shooting against is “50,000 miles and the charger door sometimes sticks in cold weather, period.” That’s our experience with the current car, made by a boring old-school manufacturer.

Tesla needs to view and absorb Rich Rebuild’s videos, start triage by dropping reliability-killing tinsel like powered extending door handles. Let alone the 3, the other vehicles have serious long term problems.

The fundamentals of Tesla’s cars are so fantastic it’s just a tragedy to see these self-inflicted hits.

I hope the situation improves quickly. But it is appalling that Tesla still hasn’t got a handle on basic QC, and I would be lying if I said this doesn’t further decrease my estimate of the probability that I’ll actually use my reservation some day.

Failure to recognize the keycard. to engage drive, or to control the stereo are each, independently, issues that are serious enough to nullify whatever advantages the car may offer in space or performance. These are embarrassing and completely unnecessary faults. IDK why Tesla had to write all the software anew for Model 3 rather than just the front-end, but it smells of extreme incompetence and rushed work. It doesn’t inspire confidence.

I won’t cancel as long as I haven’t got any invite to order, but right now I think it’s at most ten percent chance I’ll bite the bullet.

Edmunds is Pro-Oil Anti-EV site and no wonder they talk bad about Tesla Model-3.
Insideevs should not publish any article published in Edmunds, Fox, Forbes, Car&Driver etc.

Edmunds gave the Bolt 4.5 out of 5 stars. Car and Driver gave the Bolt 5 out of 5 stars. Tesla Model S made Car & Drivers 10 best cars list. Edmunds gave the Model 3 4.5 out of 5 stars. Don’t you just hate facts when you’re trying to spread some hate? Kinda blows up your theory that those publications are Pro-Oil Anti-EV sites huh?

And they should publish more “real” news from sites like EVANNEX right? Lol what a joke. The truth? You can’t handle the truth!

Tesla Model 3 | Track Test | Edmunds — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4icQIuldZU

Guess what.
We Tesla model 3 owners don’t care.
We love our cars.

Also, I invite you to go onto a Ferrari or other luxury car forum, and read the nightmares posted there.

Elon asks Consumer Reports for help and recommendations. Admits to CR the Model 3 UI and key access must improve. Just goes to show Elon knows Tesla needs the Consumer Reports ‘Stamp of Approval’.

No it just goes to show that Tesla and Musk are maturing and listening to non-financial criticism regarding issues with their cars and reacting by looking to fix the issue if it is there.

You on the other hand are nothing but a serial anti-Tesla troll on the internet who has probably not accomplished much in your life.

You sad pathetic person. Consumer Reports discussed the one-hour long conversation with Elon and nothing I stated was a misrepresentation. Tesla wants the recommendation of Consumer Reports as does Honda and Toyota.

I am glad the Consumer Reports assessment will result in needed Model 3 improvements. As was noted in the video, this is a win for Model 3 owners.

FYI…. Great and prosperous life – something you should strive for

Don’t be concerned with Get FUD. Any perceived anti-Tesla person he just automatically labels a troll. His brain can’t discern legitimate criticisms from trolling, so he just calls out anyone saying anything remotely critical of Tesla as a troll. He’s a simpleton that way.

I’ve had no issues with my model 3. The car is pure awesomeness. Elon sends out an OTA, which fixes bugs and makes the car even more awesome. I hope the peeps who wrote this article are getting paid well, by the scared oil companies.

One thing to remember – Musk himself has indirectly acknowledged that the early production cars are considerably worse. Why else would he care if Consumer Reports or Edmunds had an early car.

Remind me again how the most loyal customers and employees got rewarded for buying and testing the early cars that are worse? Oh yeah, that is right. They got to pay full price – that is it.

What a joke.

Interesting, my Model 3 with 5K miles has been relatively flawless. If they are concerned about the occasional screen reboot, which takes only about 20 seconds maybe they have never owned a phone or computer before? It’s a high tech device and the good news is that you can reboot it and it can be updated. I think they are still living in the car-as-a-static-entity world.

Agreed. A 20 second reboot is no big deal. Plenty of time to figure out why you can’t shift into Drive while waiting for that reboot to occur.

Elon has lost it. Went full Trump today. News outlets keep publishing negative, self inflicted news, so he cries like a baby on Twitter, just like the Cheeto in Chief. Ridiculous actions from the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company.
Shut up and get flawless 3’s cranking off the line, Elon! There’s no crying in car manufacturing!
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/05/23/elon-musk-complains-of-holier-than-thou-hypocrisy-of-media.html

Screw Trump…. 😐

Please,,, get over yourself brosef !

So easy to judge from the sidelines… Being such a Jerk.

Yeah, and you never lose it.

You’re extreme insecurity is bordering on a medical disorder. Everyday you here being an absurd fanboy.

Do us all a favor, and follow you’re own advice and shut up!

btw, the M3 is going to destroy the Bolt! LOL! I love it!

Motor Trend today posted their long term results of the Chevy Bolt. “2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV Long-Term Verdict: Award Worthiness Confirmed”

Yep, we are covering that at the moment. Thank you.

I’ve had my Model 3 since early April and have put 1762 miles on it. No major issues at all. Nothing like what Edmunds is describing. The only minor irritating thing is the phone sometimes won’t unlock the car unless I open the app and wait for it to “wake up” the car. Or I could take my wallet out of my pocket and press it up against the B-pillar. It is absolutely hands-down the best car I have owned or driven. I haven’t tested the panic stop but I intend to.

While I have a great deal of respect for Edmunds.com — in fact, I respect their reviews of cars more than those from any other source — at the same time, I have to think they must be dealing with an outlier example of bad quality, perhaps a “lemon”. Sure, there have been problems reported with the build quality of Tesla Model 3’s, especially early production units, but this has to be far out of the norm. If the average Model 3 had this many problems, then the amount of complaints about them would be overwhelming, to the point that most people would have cancelled their reservation and Tesla would have a disaster on its hands the scope of the Edsel. What I take from this report is an indication of a troubling lack of consistency in build quality. That, unfortunately, does fit with many other reviews of the car. It does explain why many people praise the quality from bumper to bumper, while others complain endlessly about fit-and-finish issues and other problems, mostly minor but some major. Many Tesla fans, and I’m one of them, have been saying for some time that Tesla really needs to concentrate on making… Read more »

No big surprise. They can’t get the assembly line running right, so the product will be inconsistent and many units will have poor build quality. The S had build issues at the beginning too, and they weren’t rushing as much to get it out the door.

As to why we don’t hear more complaints from M3 owners: people who spend money don’t want to admit they bought a poor product.

Can’t complain about high gas prices though 😎.

That’s the results when you sell a car that still need at least 6 months, even a year of development. Tesla is selling an unfinished product cheating the clients. I think this can be some kind of fraud.
I can’t imagine any other maker selling a car with this huge ammount of problems. But like a secta, the Tesla Followers are ready to tolerate every slap in their face from the big lord Elon.

got 215K miles on my Mazda 3 ICE car, 1 problem, a broken motor mount. Oh, the money you’ll save by just taking care of your car.

The charger port is on the wrong side of the car? Whats up with that? Hopefully each day will see improvements. I’ll be glad when they can make 10,000 quality units each week.

We have a Tesla model three extended battery premium package. Back wheel drive. There been a couple glitches shoes here and there but the biggest complaints so far is the streaming issue that we’re having with the tuning. It’s all other functions seem to work very well. The car drives and performs as expected. We haven’t had any of the small issues such as mirror fitment your volume up and down or anything like that. I do believe Edmunds got a bit of a lemon. My partner drives this car every day to the tune of almost 100 km. It’s our grocery getter and run about vehicle. My 10-year-old boys friends love it. We even drove out to PI from around Toronto and back in the summer. Lack of charging on the East Coast was our only issue. With the 500 KM range there was only one overnight stop over there had to be planned for charging. So far a solid car though the cost of snow tires from Tesla is a lot excessive. We’ll see how he does through the winter.

We’ve had our Model 3 since September and it is now on its fourth service call. Stress cracks on rear glass windshield up and down defroster lines, dashboard not attached properly and rattling while driving, massive water ingress into trunk via poorly sealed trunk seam, huge software systems failure while driving that shut down stabilizing and abs systems. Poor service from Tesla who just shrug their shoulders and tell us they’re seeing a lot of these things on a regular basis. If Tesla doesn’t start issuing recalls, I’m predicting class action lawsuits and a lot of bad press.