Edmunds Asks – Do You Really Need All That Electric Range?

JUL 5 2018 BY DOMENICK YONEY 173

Maybe 150 miles is plenty.

Range is probably one of the most thought-about aspects of electric vehicles. Especially for new buyers. Not long ago, if you wanted more than a 100-mile leash, you had to shell out big bucks for a Tesla Model S or Model X. Now, there are a handful of cars that can go 150 to 300 or so miles without raiding the retirement fund, and more are on the way. As this magic number continues to increase, it seems it might be a good time to discuss how much is range is really needed.

This is exactly the conversation Dan Edmunds, Jason Kavanagh and Calvin Kim of Edmunds have in the video above. The publication just happens to have three such EVs in its collection right now — the 151-mile Nissan LEAF, the 238-mile Chevy Bolt, and the 310-mile Tesla Model 3 — and the three auto journos have had a chance to spend some time living with them long enough to have some good insights.

Interestingly, at 90 miles, Edmunds is the one with the longest commute (we assume that includes the return trip) but is the first to claim the mere 151-mile range of the 40-kWh 2018 LEAF is plenty. Charging to full each night in his garage, it covers enough distance to get him to work and cover any side trips he may have to make. The one caveat they make to this observation is an important one. Range can drop considerably in the winter, so those in more northern climes need to also take that into consideration.

 

Another curious aspect they discuss is how far the cars can go above their EPA-rated distances. In this respect, the two front-wheel-drive vehicles seem capable of overachieving the number assigned to them by the government agency, while the single rear-wheel drive Model 3 seems less so. For instance, Edmunds claims that he “soft-pedaled” the Bolt 334 miles and still had 16 more miles available according to the vehicle’s display. That’s pretty amazing, and they attribute it to the fact that regenerative braking, which puts energy back into the battery, is more effective when the motor which does that work powers the front wheels, which also do the heavy lifting in braking. This is a thesis that will be better tested once the dual motor versions of the baby Tesla make their way into owners hands, which should be very soon.

There are lots of other great tidbits in this eight-minute video which we think you’ll appreciate, so if you haven’t already, we suggest you sit back and hit “play.” Enjoy!

Source: YouTube

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173 Comments on "Edmunds Asks – Do You Really Need All That Electric Range?"

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William

Yep,

150 miles in a 2018 40 kWh Nissan Leaf, is all you will really EVer need!

Now how about that little (Elephant in the Room) battery degradation thingy?

You loose a little over 3% of those miles a year, on a annual 12k mi. driving cycle. At the end of driving, in year three (@36k mi.), you have approximately a little over 130 mile of useable range left.

This should be ok for some, but maybe a few others, will not like the ongoing diminishing returns, of not having a liquid TMS in their 2018 Leaf. These little details start to rear their ugly little head in year 4-5, with double digit battery degradation, starting to add insult to injury.

Lease the Leaf,
Buy the Bolt,
Or, wait on what you are patiently holding out for, in a NO COMPROMISE EV!

Michael S

The law of diminishing returns definitely applies to EV range. ICE drivers think they need 300+ miles, when in fact that ignores how EVs are actually used (charged nightly, rather than being fueled weekly as in the case of an ICE car.)

The 33-kWh battery in my i3 REx is rightsized with 120 miles of range, which is all you’ll need to go anywhere in the LA/OC mega-region. The on-board backup generator provides redundancy should there be an outage or a situation that prevents you from recharging from the grid. It’s a solution that comes at minimal complexity or weight (~250 lbs), and it also provides the peace of mind to use all of the battery capacity, rather than having to set aside a buffer.

I think you’ll find the i3 Rex is rated at 97 miles of range, not 120.

Michael S

BMW rated it very conservatively. I see 120+ miles on a full charge and average 4.2 mi/kWh without trying.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Or to look at it from a more objective viewpoint, you use fairly aggressive hypermiling techniques to stretch out the car’s range significantly.

That’s good for you personally, and your dedication to energy efficiency is admirable. But the range you’re getting is more of a measure of your dedication to hypermiling, and not a measure of what the average driver can expect from the car.

Willy

Or it is a reflection of his driving route, drive lower speed roads/congested highways and range improves, no hypermiling needed

David Green

I say, for economy and convenience buy a Leaf, and rent a different car for road trips.

Clive

I’d rather go to the dentist then visit a Nissan dealership sales department.

menorman

Just do everything online or wait for them to start hitting Carmax.

David Green

I had fun at the Nissan dealer last weekend, I got them down nearly 6K on a Leaf SV with Tech and Pro Pilot, and got my buddy 0% financing. In straight dollars that means my buddy got a car that sticker at over 36K for around 19K when you figure the $7500 tax credit, and value of the 0% financing. When he drives it for 5 years saving $1200 a year in fuel he will be into it 13K… Should be able to sell it for 13K with 50K miles, so his cost for the car is almost zero… Way better then leasing it financially.

Sustainable2020

Why buy when u can lease for lower costs per mile? Unfortunately no sweet lease deals on leafs yet…probably within six months though

dan

Bad teeth and irrational car choices. You must be a real catch.

Dav8or

120 miles of range is by no means right size for most Americans. I routinely drive more than that in a day. Then there is winter time, then there is 100+ degree days, then there is years down the road. IMO, if one is not retired, or just works at home every day, you need to get 200+ miles or range if you are going to buy a BEV. Even the 210 in the standard TM3 might give me range anxiety. The 240 in my Bolt solves this. The 300 in the upscale TM3 would be even better.

There is a reason that ICE manufacturers don’t sell gas powered cars with less than 300 miles in range. IMO, to pretend that 120 miles is enough is fantasy for most.

JMB

I have a 2018 i3S REX and just completed my first extended-range trip. I aimed to recharge every 100-110 mile and in the NE corridor going from NYC to Cape Cod that was very easy. The 33 kWh battery gave me plenty of range to tour and sightsee once on the Cape. With the Rex, I found I would run the battery down to 6-10% SOC..I never did that with my 2014 BEV i3. So, also having a TSLA S85, its larger battery allows for a great time between battery charging and also access to the SuperCharger network. Two great EVs but very different and each address my unique EV driving needs…I’m fortunate to have both

notting

*LOL* https://pushevs.com/2018/03/20/nissan-leaf-battery-degradation-data-24-vs-30-kwh-batteries/ -> 30kWh -> many with <80% original capacity in 2 years!
+ when cold, driving faster, reserves for the next day to drive to work and back etc.

notting

William

My 2016 30kWh (10/15 build date) Leaf, is at 6-7% degradation (LeafSpy Pro), with over 25k miles/20 months of in service use, w/ 100+ DC FastCharges.

26+ kWh useable out of 28kWh useable, is not in line with what you are reporting.

Clive

Take your car in a get the new update you will get some of your GOM back.

SparkEV BoltEV

These are the same 3 idiots who thinks Leaf is the best choice, never once discussing the awful lack of TMS on Leaf. Had they said Leaf is crap since Nissan will come out with TMS Leaf next year, their opinion might hold some water.

David Green

Strongly disagree with you… Leaf is a good car for the money… TMS or not… and I see no evidence of battery degradation on people that use the car as it is intended… a commuter car. My buddy bought one last weekend I will monitor his for degradation and see…

Rafael Sabatini

Agree on all points. Having a ModX coming in over 6000# with passengers… and too much battery… is causing a lot of problems.

We need lighter and more efficient for the BeV model to work.

And, now, with 100-200 KW_hour battery packs from Tesla, there’s suddenly a worldwide shortage of Lithium. Weird, huh?

SparkEV BoltEV

If you want lighter BeV, SparkEV should be the answer since it’s only 2866 lb AND it comes with probably the best TMS ever made. Even Nissan is conceding defeat and will integrate TMS in upcoming Leaf. Yeah, air cooled ICE engines are simpler, but no one’s making those other than toy motorcycles (aka, Harleys and wannabes)

Bottom line, whatever range you need, stay away from Leaf until 2019 model with TMS is out.

Mint

The SparkEV was sold at a loss in limited numbers and had an EPA range of only 82 miles. You just make yourself look stupid by continually bringing it up.

It’s one thing to say most people don’t need 200+ miles, and 150 is enough. It’s quite another to say 82 is enough.

As for the Leaf, I’ll bet you the bigger battery version will sell worse than the TMS-less 40 kWh version in 2020 and beyond, because the Leaf’s strength is being the best EV under $35k. It has ProPilot, sub-8s 0-60, is roomy, and has a very adequate 150 mile range.

It’s the ultimate commuter car. Add $5k for a bigger battery, and you start considering a Tesla and all its advantages.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“…there’s suddenly a worldwide shortage of Lithium. Weird, huh?”

Weird that even a serial Tesla basher like you would make such an obviously B.S. claim. 🙄

Hey, lose any money recently on your TSLA “short” investment?
😆 😆 😆

David Green

Tesla shorts had a good week… Just saying! do you ever pay attention to what you are saying and have an ounce of situational awareness?

Unplugged

Sure, lack of TMS is just fine so long as you don’t live inland in California or live in Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, or any other place in the Western U.S. that has high temperatures. Oh, and you can’t travel to these places either. Or move to them. So you can’t live on the California coast and travel to Palm Springs. Or Las Vegas.

But that’s okay, I guess.

menorman

Factually incorrect. There’s a lady in the Nissan Leaf Owners Group on Facebook who lives in AZ and bought a new Leaf and hits the CHAdeMO daily. So far, she’s passed 20k miles with no signs of degradation, though her charging does get throttled at lot. The other options you presented should absolutely be doable, especially since some will fit well within range of a single charge.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Citing anecdotal evidence in this case is meaningless. For every example of no premature Leaf battery degradation in a hot climate, you can find several reports of premature degradation in much more northerly climates, such as Minnesota or Michigan, or even Canada.

The sad fact is that the degradation in a Leaf battery pack is erratic and unpredictable. Your odds are better if you live where it never gets very hot in the summer, and your odds are better if you never use DC fast charging, but it’s still a crap shoot no matter how you do or don’t drive the car.

David Green

I would not own a Leaf in Vegas, or in Phoenix, that makes total sense, but Northern CA, Oregon , Wa, no problem. You should go test drive one, they are actually pretty good little cars.

Henrik

I think you hit a very important point. I have a 2017 Leaf and a 2018 MY Leaf, made 10 months apart. I’m in Sweden where a few days of 25 C is a heat wave… The old 24 kWh battery is still above 100% state of health after 16 months after it left the factory according to LeafSpy. The new one, which was made some 6 months ago, has dropped a little less than a percent in the last three months and is now at 98.5%. Taking the worst case – which will probably not happen – the car loses 4%/year. In five years and 240 000 km / 150 000 miles it would have lost 20%. Perfectly fine by me. It will still be a perfectly usable car. We should be careful when projecting the failures of the old Leaf onto the new one. The greater initial range makes battery degradation much more tolerable. Furthermore, I and most other Leaf customers will never take the car to California, which means that this never ending talk of battery cooling is way overblown. It’s a great car but Nissan would be wise not selling the car in hot climates.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

Just wait when the intended use of the DCFC is used a few times.
I have many coworkers with LEAF that used DCFC and lost a bar then another bar after DCFC on a trip going 125 miles. In winter their range is so bad they come around asking if anyone is done charging so they can charge.

Will

In the winter. Lies. 2018 Leaf just came out in February

Pushmi-Pullyu

Several serial Tesla bashers have posted lies in this discussion thread. Sadly, that has become the norm at InsideEVs. 🙁

Trollnonymous isn’t one of them.

David Green

Are you trolling EV’s again… and in an EV forum? FUDster

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Strongly disagree with you… Leaf is a good car for the money…”

Ohhhh, a very active, die-hard serial Tesla basher agrees that the Tesla Model 3 isn’t worth the price.

Color me very unsurprised. 🙄

David Green

Been trolling lately?

Viking79

I mostly agree, but problem areas for all cars with thermal management include reliability of said thermal management system. Volt has had many issues with coolant sensors, eventually those coolant systems will leak requiring expensive repairs (cooling failure is a major cause of ICE failure as well). BMW i3 cars occasionally have the AC unit blow out costing thousands to repair. It isn’t all sunshine and roses.

However, I am only arguing the counter point. I would always buy an EV with active thermal management for the battery.

SparkEV BoltEV

No one’s making air cooled ICE, even Posche abandoned it. Writing’s on the wall, all EV will have TMS sooner or later. Speaking of leaks, it seems FCEV advocated think FCEV will not leak when they’re subject to thousand times the pressure with far smaller molecules.

Mint

I don’t think the writing’s on the wall at all. Have you seen any of Jeff Dahn’s or CATL’s work on battery life?
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/04/exciting-developments-nmc-811-lithium-battery-technology/

After 1000 cycles at 45°C, CATL retains 86% of life. Jeff Dahn’s chemistry tweaks are seeing over 95% life after 1000 cycles at 40°C.

I think in 5 years, almost all economy EVs will skip the TMS. If solid state batteries get cheaper than liquid electrolyte batteries (and that’s a big if), they generally work *better* at higher temperatures.

You like ICE analogies? Everyone is switching from hydraulic power steering to electric. Fluid systems have significant cost, and they sap energy, too.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Volt has had many issues with coolant sensors…”

Is that the Volt 2.0? The Volt 1.0 has been almost universally reported to be very reliable over the long term. I’d read that the Volt 2.0 is less so, but I haven’t read of just what problems have been reported.

Unplugged

Consumers Reports rates the Volt for 2016 and ’17 at worse than average in reliability. There is no reliable information on the cooling system yet.

fotomoto

No it’s not enough when you need to figure in range reduction things such as:

High speed trips….. in the cold…. with heater blasting…… battery degradation years from now…..headwinds……don’t live in temperate SoCal……etc….

My personal needs: 150 miles guaranteed 24/7/365 for the life of the car.

Viking79

This is why everyone is different and why people need to buy a car with a minimum range of 2x their average commute and maybe 3 to 4x in a cold climate area or with high speed driving. Rentals are available for emergency situations of course.

So, if someone had a round trip commute of 80 miles with speeds up to 75 mph, they might need EPA rating of 240 miles. Why? Let’s take Bolt EV as an example. Highway range at those speeds will drop to more like 190. In winter maybe 130. 10 years old? Maybe 100. In a moderate climate a 150 mile range might be fine. Drop to 120 or 130 at highway speeds, then similar 90-100 when it has aged.

Bolt driver

+1. Then throw in a few day trips of 200-300 miles at high speed and cold weather. In those conditions the Bolt doesn’t have enough range or recharge fast enough to be the right choice.

It has been amazing to see how much more range I have in summer than winter. Due to not needing all the range most days I run hill top reserve and my summer range is 200 miles vs winter range as as low as 130. This is in the first year, so not much battery degradation if any. I would expect that 5 years from now and at 100k+ miles my winter range will be less than 100 miles. I would expect that the 40kw leaf would not be able to do my commute within 2-3 years of actual use during winter driving.

tim

I took a trip from Wisconsin to Idaho in my Tesla S P85+. with 5 people and all the luggage, we had about 1200 pounds in the thing. Going through Montana uphill into the wind at 90ish MPH in 100ish temperatures and the car wouldn’t go 150 miles on a full charge. That being said, the chargers were close enough together to make for a good trip, but a car that started out with a little over half the range would be hopeless.

Pushmi-Pullyu

If I had subjected my family and/or friends to reckless driving at 90+ MPH for hundreds of miles, I certainly wouldn’t brag about it!

No car, gasmobile or BEV or anything in between, is going to come even remotely close to its MPG or EPA range rating if driven at the excessive speed of 90+ MPH. The EPA range rating for BEVs is, if I recall correctly, done at an average 55 MPH.

Viking79

Driving fast isn’t necessarily reckless. The issue arrises when fast mixes with reckless.

Will

90 mph is reckless especially on divided 2 lane highway

Doggydogworld

Speed limit is 85 on SR130 near me. Lot of people drive “90ish”.

Will

Where at cause I can look it upon google maps

Unplugged

Unfortunately, my Google Maps only shows 80. Still, that is really nice for freeway speeds.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Glad I don’t live in your State!

Nix

And people tow trailers on SR130 at that speed too. Crazy.

Rafael Sabatini

Bad news, Pushy-Trollme,

For decades Montana didn’t even have a speed limit… “Reasonable and Prudent” for Conditions.
Many’s the time I’ve driven Billings-to-Butte with the pedal down.

90 is sort of the norm for Montana even today, where the distances are vast and distant “progressives” trying to impose their will on the more rural parts of the country are considered half-vast.

Will

Yeah ruals can eat crap all care about for voting in Dictator Trump and giving Russia America

SparkEV BoltEV

Will, you are doing a fantastic job in converting moderates to vote for DUMP. DUMP won 2020 thanks to guys like you.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“For decades Montana didn’t even have a speed limit… ‘Reasonable and Prudent’ for Conditions.”

To echo what someone else already commented, driving 90+ on a two-lane, non-divided highway is anything but prudent.

It’s understandable that in a State which has “miles and miles of nothing but miles and miles” that there would be a strong motive for a higher speed limit, or even in some cases a push for no speed limit, but just because there is a strong motive for it doesn’t mean it’s sensible, reasonable, or safe.

Nix

Montana put speed limits on all their roads 20 years ago.

Ziv

Montana was forced to have a speed limit in 1977, so the State legislators said the fine would be $5 and no points on your record. Jay Leno claims he was driving through Montana a year later and got pulled over for speeding. The HP told him the situation and said that Leno could pay the fine in person in cash or pay it at the nearest county seat with cash, check or credit card. Leno then handed the HP a $20 bill and said, “Keep the change, I am going to speed across your whole da**ed state!”
And knowing Leno, he just might have done so.

Will

Yelp agree with pupu. EPA is for moderate driving l. High speed driving is 2x less of the range. I just finish a 400 miles trip to NYC and mpg was 33 but I know I can get 48mpg with battery full in my volt if I drive 60 mph on the freeway

David Green

90 MPH through Montana is not really unsafe, go under 80, and people will run you off the road… My diesel pickup at 90 does ok governor at 98MPH, but it is certainly no miser to begin with. Range at 90 MPH still over 500 miles so 20% greater consumption then 65MPH.

Nix

You sound like the exact folks one of the Montana Senators talked about when he changed his mind and began supporting the speed limit bill in Montana that eventually became law:

”Two years on the road with the crazies out there” changed his mind, Mr. Stang said. He drove 50,000 miles in 1998 alone, and said it was worrisome to be ”going along at 80 and someone from out of state, who doesn’t understand the road conditions, passes you at 100.”

What is your stopping distance in your Duramax from 90 mph?

Ziv

David, it depends. I grew up on the HighLine on Highway 2. 90 is simply not safe for anyone given the amount of wildlife that pop up from the road side at the last second. There are parts of interstate in Montana in which 90 mph is safe, but the vast majority of highways in Montana are too narrow and too likely to toss a deer or cow at you to make 80 mph safe, let alone 90 mph. I am not saying I didn’t drive at 90 fairly frequently, but I also lost several friends to traffic accidents. I once drove from Glasgow to Billings (277 miles) in less than 3 hours, trying to catch a friend who was driving a 1977 Trans Am. Turns out the friend was behind us the whole trip. Ah, the joys of miscommunication in the days before cell phones!

leafowner

Tim – just saying — instead of 90 you did 70-75 — you would have had way more range and maybe actually have gotten there quicker. You are probably using 50% more power at 90 vs 70.

xm

“My personal needs: 150 miles guaranteed”. — Statistical Outlier SPEAKS!

fotomoto

Really? That’s like a 60 mile trip with 20 miles of running around in between the two back/forth legs and 10 miles left in the bank for safety.

notting

Good posting, but you forgot that more capacity means faster charging (in additional range per charging time) _and_ less degradation.
Example: You got 25% more battery capacity than you need. For easier calculating instead of 80kWh you got 100kWh. Most batterys can be charged with maximum power until roughly 80% SoC. Then charging becomes quite slow. With a 80kWh battery that’s 64kWh and with a 100kWh that’s 80kWh. So if you actually need 80kWh, with a 100kWh battery you can charge the same amount in kWh in much shorter time. And if you’re using 90-100% SoC much less (easier with bigger capacity), your battery will degenerate muss slower.

notting

David Green

Thats a tall order for an EV, as most people do not want to fully discharge…

fotomoto

My actual scenario is about 125 miles not 150 giving myself 25 miles in the bank for safety. Stuff happens.

Volt Master

If only someone made a hybrid with a 50 mile All Electric Range – you wouldn’t need big batteries and big costs…

CIO

Volt? Clarity?

Pushmi-Pullyu

I’m pretty sure he was being ironic. Look at his screen name.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Seriously? -3 for that comment?

Lotta troll activity here today!

Could I get one of those with 5 proper seats and from a company that doesn’t suck? Oh, and sold in Europe, please…. 😉

xm

Clarity.

How could I buy the Clarity PHEV in Europe?
It’s not even sold in Japan as far as I know, only a few compliance states as the compliance car it is.

Will

Lol. It’s sold here in the ole USA

menorman

The PHEV is sold nationwide, not just in compliance states. Even dealerships in Alabama stock them.

Pushmi-Pullyu

If you think the Honda Clarity PHEV is only a compliance car, then you need to learn the facts before commenting again on the subject.

Hint: It’s sold overseas, too.

https://www.topgear.com.ph/news/car-news/honda-clarity-phev-tokyo-a23-20171102

Rafael Sabatini

Company that doesn’t suck… guess that leaves these guys out of it…

https://www . bloomberg . com/news/articles/2018-07-05/tesla-drivers-are-getting-disgruntled-in-key-european-market

Pushmi-Pullyu

Not only an anti-Tesla troll, but a lazy anti-Tesla troll.

Must suck to lose so much on short-selling TSLA.

David Green

are you trolling other people then just me? Oh more negative Tesla news, it has to be fake? haha! Wake up old timer…

asdfasdf

And double the chance that something’s going to break because you now have 2 motors and a lot more complexity? No thanks. Hybrids are hacks.

F150 Brian

Prius has been one of the most reliable vehicles ever. Who makes it, not what it is is much more of a factor

Rafael Sabatini

Heh, yeah that’s why Toyota is always on the bottom of the quality surveys.

Oh, wait a minute…

Will

I have a 12 volt no issues with the power train since bought it with 42k miles on it just the annual battery coolant and tires

Will

Clarity

Another Euro point of view

The problem is maybe not what people need in their everyday life but what they think they might need one day. If it was that simple we would probably see a lot less pick up trucks in the US for example (you know maybe one day while driving back from my boring accountant job I may come across an elephant drowning in a river which needs a tow…). Now it also depends of age category you are in, the older you get more chances you have to have a holiday cabin or a cruising boat, then distances needs to be driven, gear to be carried along which makes EV not the ideal car unless you are ready to unload a ton of cash. In my case, not even considering less than 250 miles range, ideally at least 350 miles and less than $35k. I am a 2025 EV buyer. I need to be able to drive 3 hours at 80 mph in the winter without that being a problem.

Mike

Yes, I do. And I need more. Traveling to the northeast annually is getting easier, but whenever I go somewhere that does not have a destination charger we constantly have range anxiety. (even with 286 miles when full)

Alphaman

It’s not how many miles per charge that people need to think of, it’s the fact that with overnight charging with a cheap 16A EVSE, the lowest end cars can easily get over 120 miles a day. That’s 840+ miles a week, without ever having to visit a gas station.
EVER.
Most ICE cars will need to fill up two or three times if driven that much, gas fumes and oil stains included.

Loboc

150 miles is plenty for me. As long as it is ALWAYS 150 miles. What is it at 10-yrs old in cold weather? Will it go three hours at 10mph average in an ice storm with the cabin heat running?

Nobody buys a vehicle for their ‘average’ use. They buy it for all the corner cases like taking off for granny’s house when she calls for help.

tm

It would not need be always 150 miles, it may be average (bare minimum average as hybrids do over 500 miles). But only as long as you can reliably recharge in 5 minutes on the road and reach that granny house in time.

As it is not possible with current Li Ion technology right now, it leaves us with more realistic 700-1000 mile requirement for mass adoption, not just for enthusiastic “look I can do it!” early adopters who are happy to make compromises.

E.g. I don’t drive 500+ miles every month or even year. But last time I needed to make 1000 mile round-trip (with more than one driver in the car) and with absolutely no time in schedule to stop for hours, battery cars were out of the question. Airlines too for that matter because of non-matching schedule and airport hassle.

Viking79

People will tolerate slightly slower recharge times than gas times. Much of the time people spend at the gas station is inside when the car isn’t gassing, walking in to pre-pay, etc. I think as long as range is 300+ miles and they can stop every 2 to 3 hours for 15 min they won’t have too many complaints. Tesla is borderline fast enough right now for mass adoption. I think if Porsche delivers on recharge time of 80% in 15 minutes, that is fast enough for mass adoption. Also, most people only charge their EV at the station while on a road trip. They save time not gassing the rest of the time. Clearly, some people will never buy an EV nor deal with charging 240 miles in 15 minutes, etc. Whatever, can’t win everyone.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“…more realistic 700-1000 mile requirement for mass adoption…”

In what Bizarro coal-rolling fantasy world would people need BEVs to have a 700-1000 mile range before mass adoption could happen?

And your use of the word “realistic” here…

comment image

Seven Electrics

As someone who has run out of charge twice, the answer is, “yes.”

95% of the time, even 80 miles is plenty. However, five percent of the time a confluence of events conspires to make your life miserable. That five percent is some combination of:

– forgetting to plug in
– extra trips (appointments, school issues, errands)
– loaning the car to a family member
– vampire drain at the airport
– cold weather
– hot weather
– long distance trips
– hilly areas

When it happens, it’s extremely painful.

Most SUVs these days have a range of 400 miles. Some hybrids get to 600.

Indeed… My one-time stranding situation was due to a fast-charger I had planned to use not being available after hours (because it was at a car dealership) combined with a summer rainstorm that came out of nowhere requiring constant use of the defroster to see where I was going. Missed the next fast charge station by about 2 miles.

Will

Always plug in my volt unless I’m staying with aunt or cousin place

Bill Howland
I really don’t know why these guys bother, except they obviously love to hear themselves talk. They are REALLY putting the wrong idea in the head of people who have no familiarity with electric cars. Example: Enterprise Rent-a-Car in the Buffalo, NY area was CONVINCED that a Nissan Leaf would be a nice economy car for a rental. I saw the wallboxes go up on the side of all the rent-a-car buildings, but then about 4 years ago THEY ALL WERE REMOVED. Next time I had to rent a car here, I asked what the scoop was and the managers at BOTH locations I popped the question to were SO GLAD they got rid of electric cars, since in cooler weather everyone would get stranded as the cars wouldn’t go anywhere near their rated range – probably due mostly to the lead foot most people have with rent-a-cars doesn’t hack it with a Leaf. The local VW dealer also would warn people about the E-Golf, saying you can’t drive the car HARD and at the same time get excellent range. Many new E-Golfs were therefore promptly sold back to the dealership – and this is with the dealership warning the… Read more »
Assaf

Short-range BEVs are likely very bad rental cars, unless the rental is for urban-area use only.
Rentals tend to drive a lot and to out-of-the-way places.
But there are 20-30 million American households with 2+ cars, 1-2 of which are used mostly/solely for commute. For most of these vehicles, even 80-mile average range is plenty, let alone 150 miles which is likely more than enough for replacing one vehicle in nearly 100% of multi-car households.

The biggest barrier to EV adoption has become neither technology, nor economics – but public misconceptions. Yes, this includes misled/misguided rental agencies like the one you describe, but also a far larger number of EV-ignorant drivers and dealers.

I can somewhat agree to this. As somebody who has 5 EVs available for rent on Turo, I can say it is a lot more work and hand-holding that what it would otherwise be if I were renting out ICEs. I’ve had plenty of people show up to get the car without even realizing it was an EV. They saw that it was “electric” but confused that with hybrid. A few people have found their garage electrical sockets are either not working, or not up to the job, thus popping the breaker. So they can’t charge like they thought they could. Public charging is a nightmare since half the stations in the city don’t work or are blocked by gas cars, so they don’t have much luck with that either.

Rafael Sabatini

Sad truth, this, but fully the truth. Everything is harder– it’s going to be awhile before it’s mainstream.

menorman

I wouldn’t put the Leaf into a rental fleet, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a bad car to own, especially with the range of the updated version. Also, the dealer has to warn e-Golf owners because people aren’t used to how long it takes to refuel, which is what separates EVs from ICEs. If someone gets a GTI and floors it everywhere, they’re not getting anywhere near the EPA numbers either, but all it takes if five minutes to make a stop and refuel. And the average car owner in America drives ~40 miles a day, so even if the office charger is out, most people would be fine. Plus, fast charging networks are expanding, adding another option for those times as well.

Mark C

When I looked at what was available to me, I decided 150 miles was the bare minimum for my needs, not my wants. As the Bolt was available to me before the Model 3, this was it. The increased range of the Leaf mattered not at all to me. If I’d not gotten the Bolt, I wouldn’t have considered the Leaf until they had the active TMS that the current and previous versions don’t have. Their range just deteriorates too fast. The i3 has less range and the rest of those great EV options don’t mean a thing in Alabama.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Very disappointing to see Edmunds’ reviewers come to this conclusion. I must say, my respect for Edmunds’ ability to review BEVs dropped quite a bit here. There’s no question that Edmunds.com knows gasmobiles, but apparently they don’t know BEVs! 🙁

Apparently they think everyone lives in southern California, with its year-round mild weather. In much of the country, it really does get very cold on many winter days, and a BEV’s range really does drop some 20-30% on such days.

Let’s list the ways in which a larger battery pack is better:

1. Longer range on a single charge
2. No range anxiety worries even on very cold days when range is reduced
3. More flexible use because it’s possible to take additional trips in the same day
4. Retains sufficient range even when the car is older and has lost 10-20% battery capacity
5. Potential for faster fast-charging
6. Doesn’t need to be charged as often
7. Battery pack lasts longer
8. Better resale value because of #7
9. Ability to use shallower DOD* for daily driving, because more capacity is available, further extending battery life

You’d think the professional car reviewers at Edmunds.com would know all this.

*Depth of Discharge

JoeS.

10. Because of the large battery buffer, L1 charging using plain old wall outlet (120vac) is a very practical lowest-cost alternative for most people.

menorman

Sure, a larger pack might be better, but it’s also more expensive.

1. Theoretically obvious, though battery size really isn’t everything.
2. Really depends on the vehicle and intended trip.
3. Not completely irrelevant, but someone who can charge at home between trips can usually easily add more than enough range to cover the next trip after arriving home.
4. Hopefully.
5. Ioniq and Soul EV charge faster than everything except Teslas, including the Bolt which has twice the battery.
6. Marginal benefit since especially with home charging, it’s not like it actually takes a lot of time at all.
7. Hopefully.
8. …and because it almost certainly originally cost more in the first place.
9. Sure, but also comes at a cost up front. The question is whether the initial premium is more than the replacement cost, especially since they’ll have a warranty on the battery for the better part of a decade.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

I do take issue with this:

“6. Marginal benefit since especially with home charging, it’s not like it actually takes a lot of time at all.”

For someone who has two PEVs at home but only one charger on the wall, it’s certainly a benefit. It’s also a benefit to someone who charges at work, and can’t always rely on being able to get access to one of the chargers there.

In general, a lot of your comments boil down to “It depends on who is using the car and their individual needs.” That’s true. But it’s also true that the more capable a car is, the wider its appeal and the greater the market potential. The greatest PEV in the world won’t reduce our use of fossil fuels if nobody buys it!

Loboc

This guy is saying his commute is 90 miles. Suppose his car can’t charge one night for some reason. Forgot. Power outage. Equipment failure. Whatever. He won’t be able to get to work and back on the residual charge of ~60 miles.

Dependence on charging every day is a single point of failure. One would need at least twice the normal. Maybe even three times for emergencies.

A 90-mile Uber wouldn’t be cheap.

menorman

He mentioned the fact that it having a CHAdeMO port means that he should be able to stop and give it a boost on the way, which is true. Even a couple minutes each way should be enough to last at least for the day.

asdfasdf
Yes, you need all that range and 150 miles absolutely sucks. 150 miles is not really 150 miles for several reasons: 1) That’s an estimate and not necessarily real world. 2) Most people don’t usually charge to 100% all the time. Sure, you could say “then change to 100% when you need it” but people don’t always know ahead of time when they need it. 3) Nobody drives until the battery is dead. Thus, the 150 miles of range is probably more like 100 – 120 miles. Take into account battery degradation over the years, winter driving, etc and that range drops below 100 miles, especially if you’re the type of keeps a car for 10+ years and actually likes to use a heater when it’s cold. This is all fine if all you’re ever going to do with the car is commute to work but it’s no ok if you want to be able to drive all around a metro area, take a weekend trip somewhere, etc. However, I don’t want a car that still requires me to have a second gas car or requires me to rent one once in a while. I shouldn’t have to give up… Read more »
Pushmi-Pullyu

Well, said, sir!

Looks like you should be reviewing plug-in EVs for Edmunds.com, rather than those guys!
🙂

KumarPlocher

This question depends COMPLETELY on your available charging options. For instance, if my family travels from the SF Bay Area to Ukiah in our RAV4 EV (100+ mi range), we have to either re-charge overnight or charge for 3-5 hours at a Level 2 charger to be able to make the trip back, because there are no Level 3 chargers in Ukiah except for Tesla Superchargers. This makes it virtually impossible to do a day trip there. Because we do this trip frequently (many friends and family live there), we are considering switching to a used Model S.

Will

Can you upgrade the RAV4 with DCFC. I thought you can

NeilBlanchard

So – some people are never happy. EV’s don’t have enough range – and we jump right to EV’s have TOO MUCH range?!

Mitch

This morning I got 168 kWh/mile in my Model 3 with the AC on for my 15 mile commute. If you extrapolate it thats about 450 miles of range for the LR version. If I drive like I did with my LEAF with the AC or heat off and on the eco mode I could probably realistically get over 400 miles in the Model 3. The reason why its “hard” to get more than the rated range is because the Model 3 is so much fun to drive you’re going to be driving it like you stole it from time to time. The other cars are just ugly boring cars that while practical are just a car the Model 3 is a whole different ball game.

I used to hypermile my Volt quite frequently since it had such low electric miles and I hated to use gas. While driving my 3, I’ve been trying hard to keep it under 250 kWh/mile. If I’m feeling especially sporty, I can easily hit 400-600 kWh/mile. But with such a big “tank”, I can be profligate yet still have a full “tank” in the morning.

Ambulator

Both MTN Ranger and Mitch appear be using kWh/mile when they mean Wh/mile.

Oops, I’ll correct that.

Frederic Borloo

Here’s the only real honest answer to this question : It depends. It depends on how far drivers need to travel daily. But also on how far they want to drive without a break. And on how long they want that break to be. Also, some people might have short comutes, but no chance to charge at home or at work. I. That case a longer range car might only necessitate charging once per week. I personally find a 350km range plenty. Since I only use 70% of the Batt capacity between stops (arrive with10%, charge up to 80%. So 280 km between stops would be about 2,5 hours of driving. For me, that is the longest I would want to be sitting on my butt without break. I would probably need to recharge about 42kWh. So at about 120kw, that would be a 21 minute stop, which is the time I spend on breaks anyway.

3laine

Exactly. Trying to pinpoint a perfect range is like trying to pick out a perfect car for everyone.

For 95% of people, a Golf-sized car is perfectly sufficient, like 150 miles of range. But for the 5% that actually have to tow things frequently or have >3 kids, play the standup base, etc., those people actually need something bigger.

So, yeah, big surprise, people here can come up with occasional scenarios where 150 miles will be insufficient, just like people come up with reasons why 200-300-400 miles will be insufficient for their cross-country trip where they wear diapers so they never have to stop.

Nix

Frederic is 100% correct. People should realize that EV’s are the ultimate “your mileage WILL vary”. People shouldn’t worry about what other people’s needs are, they should worry about their own specific needs.

The best thing that could happen to EV’s would be creating a smart phone app that uses GPS, google maps, a weather app, and plugshare to simulate what would happen if you owned an EV as you drove around your normal everyday driving route. Then reported back after each day, each week, and each month with a list of EV’s and PHEV’s that would have suited your personal driving needs (including adjusting for weather).

Then folks could know exactly what would work for them personally, and stories like this become moot.

CDAVIS

Bottom line:

~250-350 miles EPA-AER and access to a convenient and reliable supercharging network (for those occasional long distance trips).

That takes EV range anxiety off the table…

Anything less becomes a compromise of convenience of some sort relative to ICE which is ok for many EV early adopters (they rationalize that inconvenience) but not ok for the general consumer market.

Another Euro point of view

Agreed.

cr08

This really is the best summary of the entire situation. Take away the specific scenarios and usage of current EV owners and early adopters and focus on the general populous (which you really need to do if you expect EV’s to take off) and this is ultimately the bare minimum needed to make EV’s palatable.

The AER and viable charging networks go hand in hand. Tesla got it right on this front and other manufacturers should really take note.

Here where I live I’d seriously consider a Bolt if there was a decent network (or simply better and more frequent spacing) of chargers. As it is here in the Midwest you are practically stranded within major metros even with a high range EV like the Bolt. And taking a point of view of a general consumer and not EV enthusiast, I shouldn’t have to compromise such as renting an ICE for longer travel which most often recommend.

Heisenberght 3.0

“if you expect EV’s to take off”

I cannot agree. Just look at Norway. They are at about 50% for PEV sales. I would call that a take off… And the fleet is already at around 6%.

I would say the main driver for EV adoption is cost. Once EV’s are cheap enough people will choose those which fit their needs. No need to pay for and carry around a large battery pack if you live in a city.

menorman

It would be okay for the general consumer if the prices weren’t so high. Sure, there are incentives available, but hearing that the Leaf cost $38k or the Bolt was $43k (because the auto journalists frequently are testing the loaded models) doesn’t send people in a rush to their local auto center at all. But since both GM and Nissan are supposed to be working to bring down the prices, that will ultimately move more product than more range.

Pushmi-Pullyu
“Anything less becomes a compromise of convenience of some sort relative to ICE which is ok for many EV early adopters (they rationalize that inconvenience) but not ok for the general consumer market.” Exactly, and it’s shocking to see the Edmunds.com reviewers miss that very important point. Sure, there are a lot of people who will be well served by a BEV with only a 150 mile range. But then, you could say the same about the tiniest microcar EV with only 50 miles of range: That there will be many people for whom that would be sufficient for their needs. EVs will never make gasmobiles obsolete until they are viewed by the general public as being fully as capable as, or better than, gasmobiles. Not in every single category, but overall capability. For example, BEVs don’t need to be charged in 2 minutes for the average driver to find them acceptable; a 10-12 minute charge to 80% should be sufficient for the overwhelming majority of drivers, who won’t be using DC fast charging that often. But considering BEVs as just as good or better than gasmobiles will never happen so long as BEVs are seen by the average person… Read more »
God/Bacardi

I have been championing this idea since day one…The best solution is offer two battery sizes…150 EPA miles for the low and at least 300 for the high…

Viking79

Exactly, like Model 3 base and Model 3 Long Range. Although the base can do long range it will be far more annoying given charge rate is only 66% of Long Range and 60% of the battery is only 132 miles instead of 186 miles. This is sort of your usable range on a long range trip without pushing extremes (in other words avoiding quick charging taper). Your average travel rate will be a lot slower in the base Model 3.

David Green

I think a real 150 mile range works for lots of people for commuting… Shoot, I had a Volt with 40 mile range, and made that work 90% of the time, without gasoline.

Mart

I drive a smart ED and have no problems unless I want to take a road trip. Then we use my wife’s PHEV C-Max.

(⌐■_■) Trollnonymous

I want More Range!, More! More! More!

I need to go further than an ICE car that carries 2 Jerry Cans in the back!

David Green

HAHA! This funny!

Fool Cells

what is the point of this? Everyone has different requirements and desires. There is no one size fits all. Let the markets provide different ranges and people will buy what they want.

Rafael Sabatini

It’s probably NOT a popular view, but by “chasing the range anxiety problem”, and arbitrarily coming up with 300-400 miles as a range target, we’ve created a generation of cars like the Mod X and Mod S that are 1500 pounds too heavy and coming in (real world, with all the vampire drain and losses consider) below 3 miles per KW_hour.

meanwhile, cars like the IONIQ are twice as efficient and much, much lighter. At their 6 miles per KW_hour, only 50 KW-hours are needed to get 300 miles.

The Model X is likely to be remembered someday as the zenith of the “Battleship Era”… too heavy for battles with lighter and more efficient competitors coming.

I’d hoped the TM3 would remedy this, but the users are reporting vampire losses of 15 miles per day and road efficiencies well below 4 miles per KW_hour.

Sigh. And now there’s a world shortage of lithium? I wonder why…

Pushmi-Pullyu

🙁 Just another “concern troll” post from a serial Tesla basher.

Nobody, but nobody, ever says “Well, I’d love to buy that car, but the curb weight is just too darn high!”

And only an EV basher, or someone promoting stock in a speculative mineral exploration company, would claim there is a lithium “shortage”.

Heisenberght 3.0

Unfortunately I have to agree with Rafael on this one (except for the lithium “shortage”)

Carrying around too much mass is not efficient. The IONIC is highly efficient. That’s nice. The Teslas go further. That’s nice too. Most people just don’t need all that range in their daily driving. Those who do can choose to buy a Tesla. That’s great.

Really all that fighting about which company is superior etc is a waste of time. It’s jut nice to see a variety of solutions to the ICE problem.

Let’s focus on the problem not on trolling/bashing/shorting etc… It’s a waste of time! Of course I see the problem that some people use this Comments section for bashing a certain company.

“Nobody, but nobody, ever says “Well, I’d love to buy that car, but the curb weight is just too darn high!” – Well, you can call me nobody from now on 😉 I already did exactly that 4 years ago 😉

ffbj

The X is like a land yacht, but no one made anything to compete with it. So they have space to themselves. Are you inferring that someone won’t build one as big, that goes as far?
There is plenty of space in which evs can flourish and Tesla hasn’t covered them all, they’ve admitted they can’t do it all by themselves anyways.

So, I just think you are reading the situation wrong. People have always wanted more range. It’s true that beyond a point it becomes less efficient. If efficiency is your main criteria for what makes a good ev, fine,
If you want to get passed by an old granny going to church on Sunday, then by all means, get the IONIQ.
At best your arguments are unconvincing.

Unplugged

One thing that apparently escapes the three Edmunds’ writers is that range is not the only consideration so far as battery size is concerned. Battery longevity increases with size. This is due primarily to the fact that the battery is not stressed under most normal driving circumstances. If the battery can usually be kept between 20 and 80 percent charge, there is much less battery degradation compared to a battery that is fully charged and depleted.

This is the one of the reasons that Tesla batteries have so little degradation over 100,000 miles. The other main reason is that Tesla batteries have liquid cooling.

ChrisHansen

If this is a Leaf -vs- Others With More Range debate, my answer is NO. Leaf is not my choice. Not only because its lack of range, but also its awful battery degradation issue.

Mark.ca

This range talk is ridiculous. When talking about real evs, the ones that have over 100 miles of range, It is not the range that is the most important, it’s the charging speed. With a reliable fast charging network you can take the Ionic cross continent without problems. Sure you would stop every 100 miles for 20 minutes but you could do it. My point is, after a certain miles of range, the range gets less important and the discussion should shift to charging.

Pushmi-Pullyu

Range will never be “less important” until average DC fast-charging time gets down to less than 15 minutes. It’s a proven psychological phenomenon; under typical circumstances, the average American won’t wait for more than 15 minutes if something is delayed.

https://www.upressonline.com/2009/04/myth-if-your-teacher-is-15-minutes-late-can-you-leave/

Heisenberght 3.0

When I was in America 😉 it was different. Waiting seems to be a quite poplar hobby in Mexico.

James

Edmunds Asks – Do You Really Need All That Electric Range?

Answer: Yes

Harvey R

What is completely missing from the conversation is any discussion of the variation in needs of individuals. For my case, I am retired and have two plug in hybrids, in 2 different cities. For my normal daily driving, a small electric mode is all I need, but if I take longer drives, into the countryside or across several states I clearly need more than 150 mile range. Having an ICE engine along with an electric motor isn’t ideal, but does the trick nicely on the longer routes. Having a BEV with a 300 mi range and a good long distance charging network–e.g. think Tesla model 3 and supercharging network–would work fine too. Having only 150 mi range would definitely not meet my needs. Everyone has different needs and longer range batteries help bridge gaps from short commutes to long drives.

vvk

While in general I agree that 150 miles is “enough”, I also agree that winter range drops by aboout 40%-50%, so 200 miles would be better outside of South California.

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the video’s opinion on regen. I’d like to see their proof that front wheel drive regen is better than rear wheel drive regen. I can have my 3 come almost to a complete stop with the “full” regen setting.

Viking79

Weight transfer. During acceleration, weight transfers to the rear of the car, the harder you accelerate, the more weight is acting down on the rear wheels, which means greater traction at the rear. This is why rear wheel drive has better acceleration than FWD that lose traction the faster you accelerate.

Opposite is true during braking, weight transfers to the front wheels. So with regen, a FWD can regen much higher amount than RWD only without braking traction on the wheels since more weight is acting at the front (increasing the harder the braking). This is why FWD vehicles have huge front brakes and tiny rear brakes, but mid engine cars typically have 4 similar sized brakes.

It isn’t that FWD is better at regen, but it does have higher max regen power than a RWD car of similar weight. Best is AWD of course as it can balance as traction permits. Most cars immediately cancel regen if any wheel loses traction, which can be disturbing.

Pushmi-Pullyu

It’s basic physics. This is well established fact, not mere opinion. During heavy braking, most of the braking force comes from the front wheels. Rear wheel only regen simply can’t recapture all that much of the available energy during strong braking, because most of the potential for energy recovery is lost by use of the front friction brakes.

However, with the Tesla, there is no friction braking unless I use the brakes. If I coast/slow down by lifting the accelerator, I’m getting all regen. I would say 90% of my “braking” never involves the brake pedal.

Bill Howland

Both you and Viking are making silly generalizations. Whether front or rear brakes, “HARD” braking should be extremely rare, as a percentage braking. Pushy’s never driven an Electric car, and doesn’t drive period so he doesn’t know. But in general , the front of the car is attached to the back, and vice versa. Most braking in an EV doesn’t use any frictional braking at all.

Robert Lee

In near arctic environments, ICEs often have 120V block heaters. We have better insurance rates for a two car household thus an electric is perfect as a second car to top-off on 120V over night.

Bill Howland

Only detail here is a car charger is usually somewhat larger than a 500 watt block heater…. May be an issue at a public place when 10 or 20 cars are expected to ‘warm up’
and then they slowly convert from 500 watts each to something considerably more.

Stx

No, indeed, I need MOREEE!!!!

Dave86

More ranged needed? Yes! Consider…

* 100K fans at a stadium for a football game…
* 1000’s of people at a ski resort skiing on a busy weekend day…
* rural people traveling a long distance to a major city on a weekend day to do their Christmas shopping…

Neither the football stadium or ski resort is going to install 1000’s of Level 2 chargers to recharge 1000s of electric cars for a few weekends of business per year.

Presently I commute 50 miles per day to work. If there’s a power outage during the night while I’m trying to recharge my 150 mile EV, then that’s going to make for a difficult commute the next day. Particularly if its really a cold day.

Corner cases, yes. But corner cases that exist for a large number of people, not just a few.

Heisenberght 3.0

100K fans at a stadium for a football game…

* all of them owning a 100 mile range EV
* all of them coming from further that 40 miles away…
* all of them using their cars instead of public transport

…yes corner case indeed 😉 Never gonna happen…

Heisenberght 3.0

“If there’s a power outage during the night while I’m trying to recharge my 150 mile EV, then that’s going to make for a difficult commute the next day.”

I really wonder about GREAT MURICA… power outage seems to be a real thing there 😉

Terawatt

Their regen hypothesis is utterly wrong. It is no more effective on the front wheels then rears.

Now IF regen was ALL the braking you ever did, and you were still sometimes braking on all four wheels, you would regenerate more on the front axle than the rear. But if you are braking only with regen in a Tesla, it implies zero braking with the front wheels since they can’t regenerate. The fronts would just roll freely. So it makes no difference.

Magnus H

More power needs to be dissipated on the front wheels than the rear wheels when braking. So, regen on the front have more available power to turn into electricity, than regen on the rear wheel.

70% on the front and 30% on the rear is a typical distribution.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“But if you are braking only with regen in a Tesla, it implies zero braking with the front wheels since they can’t regenerate.”

Terrawatt, you really need to stop your frequent habit of demonstrating how little you know about a given subject by asserting things as “fact” when they are utterly wrong.

Tesla’s cars use standard, off-the-shelf, made-for-gasmobile friction braking systems. Any regen in a Tesla car happens by letting up on the accelerator, and only that. Pressing the brake pedal in a Tesla car does not increase regen; it just engages friction braking. All of Tesla’s cars work that way.

Furthermore, under heavy braking it’s dangerous to try to brake with only the rear wheels, Tesla car or not. It’s also not very effective, since most of the weight is in the front under heavy braking.

Lamata

I disagree with everything these guys say….They Are All Wrong!

Jim Whitehead

The Edmunds people have never owned an EV longer than the test drives. They haven’t driven a Leaf in the cold with the dash flashing red and “0” miles showing for 7 miles to crawl to a dealership for a recharge on a cold day in January. They haven’t driven an EV in the driving rain behind a huge truck in a storm on the beltway around a city, praying you can get to the charger.

Willy

Had an 83 mile range Spark EV, was a great little car that meet 95% of our needs, got home from daily commute with 10-20 miles of range, would only be a challenge if going some place right after work. Now have Bolt EV and only charge to 90%, don’t even charge every day, taken it on 120 mile one-way trips, meets 99% of our needs. For the other 1% Avis/Hertz has a gasser for $25/day with unlimited miles.

Don’t need an LR Model 3, just need that Super Charger access and the 99% turns into 100%.

But it can be different if you can’t charge at home. Then range and charging speed can be more important, for me it isn’t.

viriato
It depends. And is different Japan from China, Europe or USA. I think like in the nature, the cars evolve in each ecosystem to adapt at their enviroment in the best way. I live in a little city in Spain. I have all kind of services near my house. I use the bike, or walk. The public transport is good and cheap. As every old european city, parking is a problem. So I make short displacements and no often. On weekend, I can travel as much as 200 km in a day. I can live with an electric car about 250 km range. Even I can go to my familiy house in summer that is at 200 km. If I go France for hollidays, I can rent a petrol car. Once a year. I think that the obsession for the range made a problem with a question that truly its not a problem for most of people. How many make more than 300 km a day. Lot of EV users, had paid for a very expensive car to use the limit of its range only once a year. Or in a long trip, can make 2 charging stops instead 3.… Read more »
Else

Nissan propaganda.
Shame on you guys.

Gabriel Rheault

Canadian here, sadly those range need to be split in half during winter so 150mile is for real 70miles 3-4 month a years…that not much

150 miles isn’t enough. But a lot depends on where you live.

If you live in a place with hot hot summers or cold cold winters, you’ll need a bigger buffer.

If you want super fast charging so you can go on long road trips without spending a ton of time charging, you need a bigger battery so it can withstand the higher charge rates. Even a 2C charge rate, a 40kW battery is only 80kW of charge and probably it’ll drop down shortly after charging starts.

Matrix003

No, what you need is 80 to 90 miles of daily dependable range. Fiat 500e fits the bill for me. You can find some good deals on off lease California or Oregon 500e.

menorman
I think they’re on to something. The Leaf is good value for the money, especially for those who live in an area that’s already getting cash on the hood. There really aren’t many better (new) options for the money, particularly to get the driver aids that come in ProPilot since the Bolt doesn’t offer them at all and as stated, the Model 3 available now easily costs a good $15k more. That’s a lot of money for a lot of people, which is why Ghosn has said that focusing on bringing the price down will be the big challenge now, not more battery. I believe that if they could get the price of the SV down to where the S is now, they’d be well-positioned for several more years and would potentially even have to add production capacity to meet worldwide demand. The biggest question mark over the Leaf is how long the battery will last and how fast will it charge on CHAdeMO. Obviously, our eyes have been opened to #rapidgate, but if that at least manages to keep the battery alive for longer, then that’s the caveat that exists to ownership: don’t expect to set distance records in… Read more »
Cecil T

It’s the cold weather and high speeds that really get you. My FFE can go 150 miles+ in the right conditions, or 65 miles in the wrong conditions.

Take the EPA rating and cut it in half for worst case range a few years down the road. 250+ miles starts making sense.