Dieselgate Spreading To Other Manufacturers, Could Thrust Them Into EVs Too

Tesla

AUG 3 2016 BY MARK KANE 30

Clean Diesel Technology!

Clean Diesel Technology!  Oh, how you make us smile VW

Volkswagen was hit hard by the Dieselgate scandal, and in months that followed were effectively forced to turn towards electrification.

Your new clean diesel turns outto be less clean than you thought?

Dieselgate spreads in France?

Now, if the new reports from France’s independent commission environment ministry are verified, a similar fate could meet other manufacturers, as deceptive software (or other practices) seems to be widespread in the diesel industry.

Handelsblatt reports that “A French investigation has revealed that Volkswagen isn’t the only carmaker guilty of falsifying diesel emissions data in the country. The report concluded that the auto industry systematically employs the deceptive practice.

The French government intends to release recommendations to ban some models that exceeds acceptable levels of nitrogen oxides and carbon dioxide emissions.

There is many brands involved according to the article: “Models from Renault, Fiat, Opel, and Mercedes performed particularly badly.

How to gain back lost fleet emission ratings and to save face?  There seems to be only one answer – more plug-ins.

source: Handelsblatt

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30 Comments on "Dieselgate Spreading To Other Manufacturers, Could Thrust Them Into EVs Too"

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Both London and Paris have moved to ban new diesel vehicle purchases in their cities.
Not spreading … already history in some ionic locations globally!
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/aug/01/city-of-london-puts-the-brakes-on-new-diesel-vehicle-purchases

It is for one government agency only, e.g. 300 car fleet in London. A bit of meaningless. Yes London and Paris are adding more restrictions/fees to get into city center with diesel. But around half of the cars in Europe are diesels and it is impossible to ban them all at once.

And diesels can be made to meet emission targets, e.g. BMW does it just fine. It just gets too expensive for small economy cars, and EU emission regulations are too formal and out of touch with reality due to German automaker lobbying, so you have results like in this French test. Nothing new really, it is well known that cars are made & are legally required to pass EU tests only, but tests have little to do with street performance.

“The report concluded that the auto industry systematically employs the deceptive practice.” As an engineer, I have to wonder how much of this is true. Most products made will be evaluated for some kind of performance. Typically the engineers know the test ahead of time. So it’s all too tempting to “game” the design to do well just on the test. Kind of like studying for a final when you know what questions will and will not be asked. It doesn’t mean you know the subject – you just know the answer to those questions. Similarly, it doesn’t mean the product performs well in the real world, just that it does well against the known test. This is all too common in engineering. But that is distinctly different from what VW did. VW specifically determined whether the test was being run and then actively changed the performance of the engine in order to pass. Not to step on toes, but that’s more like people who drive with a radar detector. Rather than obey the speed limit, they actively monitor for when they are being watched. And when they are, they “behave” until the police officer’s radar is out of range.… Read more »

Regardless of wehter they are cheating or gaming the system their is active deception and end results of more polition are the same…
Some manufactures even emit several times more polution than VWs and they are legal???

It’s the difference between teaching to the test and giving the kids the answer key.

It isn’t deception if a car is made to pass the test without detecting it is tested and switching to different mode. You can only blame test design and whoever pushed for that design as adequate. A car is doing what you asked to do by law – pass the silly test. If you want more, you need to design better test. E.g. instead of 3 possible test tasks, take time and make 300 random tasks. Current emission tests are just too simplistic.

Brian said:
“So unless we find evidence of the latter (i.e. cheating the test), I tend to suspect it’s more of the former (gaming the system).”

Cheating vs. gaming the system is a fine line. I’m pressed for time, so I’m going to cut and paste to repost a comment I made in a previous dieselgate thread about how automakers used the “thermal window” loophole to cheat/game the test.

Automakers used the “thermal window” loophole, which allows them to shut off or throttle back the NOx emissions control system in cold weather to protect the engine from damage. These cold temperatures are never encountered in a testing environment when emissions tests are run in the lab. Thus, the software will never shut of the NOx emissions control system during a lab test, but readily shuts off the NOx EC system in the real world when driving in cold weather. The problem is that automakers have adopted very generous definitions of “cold,” with one manufacturer dialing back emissions controls whenever outside temperatures dropped below a balmy 64°F!!!

http://www.reuters.com/article/volkswagen-emissions-thermal-idUSL5N17P55D

Meanwhile, Fiat is accused of putting its emissions system on a timer that always throttles back after 22 minutes. The official European emissions test lasts for approximately 20 minutes. This means that Fiats will always have higher NOx emissions when they are running for longer than 22 minutes. That’s NOT a huge difference in effect from what VW did to defeat its emissions systems.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/diesel-emissions-scandal-fiat-under-investigation/

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-fiat-emissions-germany-idUSKCN0XL0MT

No suprises here as every diesel manufacture is cheating some just in more “legal” ways than others but the end result is the same… nasty foul diesel polution…
While it is obvios to blame the manufactures I equaly if not more so blame the EPA…
Can the EPA be fined for incompetience and derliction of duty???

Hopefuly the Govs will use it to outlaw diesels and further mandate EVs…

*snicker*

Yeah. You can go ahead and blame the EPA for not regulating diesel emissions in non-commercial private cars, which they, uh, never really have. Nor have they needed to, since nearly nobody in the USA buys diesel-powered cars to begin with.

This entire scandal is in fact, actually happening in Europe, where lower taxes on diesel have made it more popular as a fuel for private cars, in spite of their more complicated and expensive design.

But I’m sure you’d blame the EPA anyway. Big government bad, free market good, right?

“You can go ahead and blame the EPA for not regulating diesel emissions in non-commercial private cars, which they, uh, never really have.” — which is why the EPA is fining them billions and forcing them to recal their products

“This entire scandal is in fact, actually happening in Europe” — again which is why the EPA is fining them billions and forcing them to recal their products

I dont live in Europe so I am not blaming them…
Actually EPA regulation is very very good and very very important…

FIFY…
Big government that wastes billions in tax payer money and needs a couple reaserchers with 20k worth of equipment to do their job for them is bad, and a non corupt highly regulated free market is good… unlike the one that brought us the hosuing bubble…

i don’t think it is appropriate for governments to tell companies what products to sell, but if the government sets CAFE standards, and individual corporations decide that the most cost effective way to achieve the standards is to introduce *ev’s, those companies will have the incentive to introduce *ev’s.

The original road testing that discovered VW cheating tested 2 VW cars and 1 BMW I think. BMW performed just fine, only VW was the problem. So no, it is not true that 100% everybody is cheating. Once you can spend some money on it, you can do it without cheating.

I coined it as the ‘Big Stink’ which never caught on, the press is so unimaginative. Although one of them did use that term. I like it since it is like a cloud spreading out from a source engulfing all who come into contact with it.
The death of diesel, at least for passenger cars is at hand.

Geez, the “clean diesel” marketing ploy was a scam the whole time? Who’da thought?

I admit that although I thought the claims of “clean diesel” proponents had a lot of hype in them, and I had read many articles on how European auto makers were “gaming the system” to inflate their European MPG ratings, I never imagined that there was systematic, intentional engineering by auto makers to wholly circumvent or spoof emissions testing.

As sven notes, the line between “gaming the system” and outright cheating is a fine one. But the line is there, even if there is some argument over exactly where it lies.

That’s enough now, people are dying because of the higher emissions. When people kill other people on purpose for whatever reason they go to jail. It is time to have CEO pay the price. Enough half measures.

It’ll be interesting to see if they can criminally prosecute the VW ex-CEO Martin Winterkorn.

Opel is a GM subsidiary. Renault is in a “strategic partnership” with Nissan, as is Daimler (Mercedes). Should be a relatively easy transition to EV’s for all of them, as their partner or parent companies are already heavily invested in EV’s.

Never mind Nissan; Renault is already a leading EV manufacturer.

http://cleantechnica.com/2016/08/02/1-renault-zoe-gobbles-38-frances-electric-car-market/

I think one of the agreements made for entry to the European Union is to allow host countries of the auto manufacturers to conduct the inspections. Not sure how much France can do?

The idea “there are others” keeps coming up, and I keep maintaining, nope, VW stripped SCR from its effort to comply with Tier 2 bin 5 all themselves. Others mess up, “tweak”, and make minor miss-representations, in comparison. The accelerated NOx regulations of the U.S. support the one-off nature, of the one OEM who went with diesel and didn’t use urea in the United States. Nobody else was this brazen. Nobody.

Give another listen to the Congressional hearing, particularly R-Congress, Chris Collins questioning of Michael Horn, again to appreciate what VW did:

Mark 1:50:48

It wasn’t just a rules violation, it was done with pride, trying to capitalize on a whiz-bang breakthrough, “Clean Diesel”.

pjwood1 said:

“VW stripped SCR from its effort to comply… Nobody else was this brazen. Nobody.”

Hmmm, I dunno, seems to me the various cheats sven describes in some posts above are every bit as bad. Especially the cheat by Fiat, damping down the emissions control system after the engine has run 22 minutes.

Just my opinion of course; reasonable people will draw the line in different places when it comes to ethical and moral offenses.

France has plenty of night time electricity from Nuclear, Hydro and Wind and can use this to power electric vehicles at night.

To this end, they have to encourage more people to buy Electric vehicles by installing more superchargers every 10 km. After all France is a much smaller country and can be easily covered with just few 1000 charging stations. Also registration charges should be reduced for EVs and raised for gasmobiles.

And they have to tax Diesel starting with the high end vehicles like SUVs and luxury cars.

Where are the Gaulist French who argued for French Aeroplane, French Rocket, French Reactor and so on.

First of all, the word “CLEAN DIESEL” should be removed and no automaker should be allowed to use this word in any of their vehicle. Not only in English, but also in other languages.

If they can use Clean Diesel, then someone can also use ‘Clean Petrol’, ‘Clean Kerosene’, ‘Clean Fuel Oil’ and so on.

Enough is enough with Dirty Diesel.

Many humans believe in “clean coal”…BELIEVE ME

Well clean coal (Coal fired power station with scrubbers fitted) Is still WAY more cleaner than a Diesel engine in a car or Truck!

I see what you did there.

I think a small part of the propaganda that the diesel manufacturers used to get public support was that, eventually, biodiesel would be cheap enough and then diesel owners could make an easy switch. Like the way the fuel cell manufacturers claim that eventually hydrogen made from water will be cheap enough to replace that made from natural gas. But biodiesel hasn’t turned the corner. I thought I’d read that biodiesel could be made that burned with fewer particulates than diesel, but that NOX was another matter.

Clean diesel and clean coal are both lies but many humans continue to believe…BELIEVE ME