Chevrolet Exec: Tesla Model 3 Mania Helps Entire Electric Car Segment

2 years ago by Eric Loveday 140

Tesla Model 3 Is Expected To Launch In Late 2017

Tesla Model 3 Is Expected To Launch In Late 2017

Chevrolet Bolt Pre-Production Version Rolling Off Assembly Line Back In April 2016

Chevrolet Bolt Pre-Production Version Rolling Off Assembly Line Back In April 2016

Shad Balch, General Motors’ manager of new product for its Chevrolet division, took a moment to discuss the significance of the Tesla Model 3 reveal/mania with the LA Times.

In a Q & A session, Balch repeated stated that the mania surrounding the Model 3 helps not only Tesla, but the entire electric segment as well, including the upcoming Chevrolet Bolt.

Q: Elon Musk is getting a lot of attention for his planned Tesla Model 3, even though the cars will not be delivered until at least late 2017. Does that help or hurt the Bolt EV’s prospects?

A: It helps. It helps the whole industry. Every story about the Model 3 includes a mention of the Bolt EV and our target date is ahead of theirs. We’re on track. Pre-production models have rolled off the line about six weeks ago. We are on schedule to begin production at the end of this year, with deliveries to start immediately afterward.

Additionally, Balch was asked if the 200-mile Bolt will cut into Volt sales. Here’s his response:

A: These are different cars for different consumers. The Bolt EV will be the vehicle for someone who wants a daily driver that uses no fuel and produces no emissions. The Volt is for someone who still needs a car with a gasoline engine that can make that long drive.

For more Q & A with Balch, click the LA Times source link below.

 

Source: LA Times

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140 responses to "Chevrolet Exec: Tesla Model 3 Mania Helps Entire Electric Car Segment"

  1. Ash09 says:

    I just hope GM markets these vehicles, and that dealerships actually bother to stock these cars. Otherwise they’re not doing much to help advance the acceptance of plug-ins.

    1. evcarnut says:

      ONE THING HE FORGOT TO MENTION IS THE VAST NETWORK OF FAST CHARGERS THAT “GM” HAS IN PLACE & THEIR LOCATIONS for that Bonus “GM” customer convenience feature…..If I buy one where do I charge up @ one of the thousands of TESLA Superchargers?……L M A O………

      1. Someone out there says:

        There are plenty of CCS chargers around and more opens all the time.

        1. Breezy says:

          Thousands of them, in fact. 🙂 Nobody’s been paying attention as the number of CCS chargers has been growing.

          1. mo says:

            I hope the Bolt is just great and people love it, it’ll be a boon and a surge of confidence for all EV’s. Seems that Telsa is getting most of the attn and for the entire EV market to progress we need others to take part in this fanfare.

        2. John in AA says:

          I think the relevant point of the person you responded to is “their locations”. The Plugshare map of CCS chargers shows vast swathes of the country having no chargers for hundreds of miles. The urban clusters don’t help if you want to drive from Maine to California.

          1. Big Solar says:

            Why would anyone drive from Maine to Cali in a bolt? Or even 1200 miles? Get a Volt if you make long trips or a used Prius and an I miev or leaf. much cheaper and more convenient. You can get a used Leaf for 8k and a used prius for 10k or less. You can get a use imiev for 6k and a used yaris for 5k.

            1. jerryd says:

              Better for less money is the T3 that can do the trip with free clean fuel.
              And the T3 only.needs 15 minute super charges every 150 miles, just what I do for breaks while traveling anyways.

              1. theflew says:

                You’re not going to get 150 in 15 minutes of charging in a Model 3 especially if the battery is smaller than 55kWh.

                1. Rick S says:

                  You forget that Tesla’s mileage claims are at a speed of 65 me.

                  GM, Nissan and Mitsubishi mileage claims are “best case”, usually in a controlled lab. That might equate to 200 miles in a city environment do in 30 to 50 mm at most and intermittently.

                  1. Terawatt says:

                    Eh…. no.

                    All of the official range numbers are EPA range. So not the manufacturers claim.

                    Range may deviate more or less from EPA rated range for different vehicles when conditions deviate from test conditions. None of the manufacturers make any claims regarding this though.

                2. Ed Post says:

                  The charging time is not dependent on battery capacity. Tesla Model S & X batteries take approximately the same time to charge no matter what their capacity is. Of course, the range at full charge varies depending on battery capacity.

                  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19khEGozqREIoAN6hd440o4qrzS2ADMVokv8G5FWmWSk/edit#gid=0

                3. jerryd says:

                  Flee, are you an idiot or mathematically challenged?
                  Fast charging time depends on pack size and charger size and little else.
                  For any given charger size the less kwhr needed means less time needed.
                  I wouldn’t be surprised if the T3 had only a 50kwhr pack even as at 200wthrs/mile likely it uses easily gives the range stated and more.
                  I’ve unlike you have been doing fast charging 40 yrs now.
                  If kept cool most batteries cab be charged as fast as they can put power out which will likely be 400+kw in the T3s case.

              2. DonC says:

                Exactly! It’s why I love to dig fence holes with a spoon. You get to sit down rather than stand up. Plus the day goes by so fast.

                Hard to understand why anyone would rather use a fence hole digger.

            2. SparkEV says:

              It’s not that people make those long trips on regular basis, if ever. It’s that they are available should they choose to do so. When there’s a competinng car with that capability (Tesla 3), whether used or not, it makes little sense to get less capable car for similar money.

              1. theflew says:

                I think it’s the similar money thing that bothers me. People think they are going to get a little 20% sized Model S for $35k. It’s not going to happen. If they can Tesla can kiss the Model S profit margin goodbye. Because the only reason to get a Model S at that point would be the larger size and most say the Model S is too large as it is.

                1. SparkEV says:

                  What do you think base Tesla 3 will have? It’s certainly not going to be crank down windows. It will offer similar features as most cars at that price today, though it may not have fancy ultra high tech 4G LTE Wifi that Chevy thinks is so revolutionary in their commercials.

                  But in areas that count, such as 200+ miles EV range and AC/heat/power windows, Tesla 3 base and Bolt will be pretty much the same. And quicker 0-60 for Tesla 3 certainly helps in bragging.

                  1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

                    So, your argument is that because the Model ≡ will have power windows, that means there won’t be a noticeable difference between interior fit & finish, nor luxury touches, between the Model S and the Model ≡?

                    That is, as they say, “Not even wrong”.

                    1. Terawatt says:

                      Can you please learn to write “3” like a normal human being?

                      Those three horizontal lines Tesla use as the LOGO for Model 3 is NOT a character. Unicode unfortunately happens to have a character with a slight resemblance to this logo, and you, among others, find it a good idea confuse the two. But it’s like using the copyright character when you mean Coke – these are two totally different things.

                      Even Tesla themselves never use the logo, or characters that slightly resemble it, when they write about model 3. In text, they use the car’s name, “Model 3”.

                      Ok?!?

                    2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

                      No.

                    3. Aaron says:

                      Take a pill, Terawatt. It’s close enough for a message board. ≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡

                2. Terawatt says:

                  LOL!

                  Chevy may lower the price of the Bolt by the time Model 3 becomes generally available. But as things stand now, the Chevy is the more expensive car.

                  Not only that, but the base M3 appears to be rather better equipped than the base Bolt. I was shocked when Chevy said the CCS port is an option. To me they might as well say the base price is higher, we just don’t want to say by how much. Because a fast charging port is not REALLY optional. Even if you will have a Bolt and some exhausted car, you still want the Bolt to have a decent second hand value down the road.

                  So if the port is $1k, the M3 buyer could choose extras for $3,500 to get to the price of the base Bolt!

                  To repeat: Chevy may lower the price before the Tesla becomes generally available. So its perhaps silly to compare at this point. But as things stand, don’t pretend the Tesla is the more expensive car, because the opposite is the case.

                  I don’t think the two are direct competitors anyway. Model 3 targets Audi A4 and BMW 3-series buyers. Bolt will hopefully capture customers who’d otherwise have bought an exhausted CUV. It’s all good.

            3. John in AA says:

              Or you can take Greyhound for next to nothing, but so what?

              You’re half-right: if you want a fully-capable car, don’t buy a Bolt. GM’s bet is that people who want that will move on to the Volt, just as you did. But if I’ve already made the mental leap to wanting a BEV and not an ICE why would I do that instead of buying a fully-capable BEV? If that competition didn’t exist, GM’s strategy would make a lot more sense.

              Yay competition.

              1. What would happen if GM used the Bolt EV with its Battery, and put a Volt Front Drive unit in the nose? They would need to find a place to put 5-8 Gallons of gas, but then they would have an EREV that offered room, range, and the flexibility of the Volt and more, with the cabin space and volume of the Bolt EV!

                To make room for the gas tank, they might have to shorten the battery, and cut it down 10 or 15 kWh in capacity, but they would still have ~150+ miles AER, plus ~200-250 miles range on gas!

                In doing that, they would have solid customer feed back as to what people want! BEV or EREV!

                Making the Bolt EV for late 2016 and into 2017, they could announc an EREV variant of in in the 2018 Detroit Auto Show, for Spring or Summer 2018 deliveries!

                THAT additional option, just might hold some sales, that are otherwise defecting to Tesla, if Tesla has not revealed THEIR CUV (Model Y?) yet!

                Not sure what they might call an EREV variant of the Bolt EV? Would they just muddy the water more, and call it the Bolt EREV, so they would then have the Volt (an EREV), the Bolt EV (a BEV), And the Bolt EREV!

                Maybe they could complete the dichotomy, by making a Volt EV?

                Since Tesla Motors gas Model S60, S70, S85, S90, S70D, S85D, S90D, and the performance variants, P85D, P90D, P85DL, and P90DL, Maybe GM could ad a battery size number to their designations, or use the EPA blended Range numbers: Volt 35, Volt 38, Volt 53, etc?

                Anyway, many commenters and coworkers over the last few years, have suggested to put the Volt Drive train, with the EREV capabilities, into a larger vehicle in their fleet!

            4. Speculawyer says:

              Or get a Model 3 that can drive from Maine to California.

              1. Big Solar says:

                i would not drive 3k miles in any bev less than a 90D. makes no sense to me

                1. Samwise says:

                  Thats because your driving too far in one stretch and have become light headed and I don’t even want to know where your wee is going on those long stretches…

                  1. Big Solar says:

                    Depends. LOL

            5. John in AA says:

              Others seem to have picked up on the fact I was using “Maine to California” hyperbolically, as a less boring a way of illustrating “any significant East-West route”. To take a more pedestrian example that’s not subject to nitpicking, it’s entirely reasonable to drive from Ann Arbor to Minneapolis. And as for the route from Ann Arbor to Chicago, driving is not only reasonable, it’s the most reasonable way to make that trip. However, looking at the Plugshare CCS map, at 275 miles between Ann Arbor and the nearest CCS charger, there would be no way to do that route without L2 charging. Chicago to Minneapolis is even worse.

            6. Spider-Dan says:

              Or better yet: why drive from Maine to Cali at all?

              Airplanes exist and make the trip in 6 hours instead of 6 days.

          2. goodbyegascar says:

            Who the hell drives from Maine to California (in any kind of car)?

            1. Nick says:

              The same people who take their SUVs off road, and haul stuff with their pickup trucks.

              People sometimes buy for dreams not reality.

              1. Big Solar says:

                + 465 million

          3. Terawatt says:

            Buying a car is a decision for many years ahead for most people. Using the players map of today to decide would be very silly.

            There are plenty of people who will be able to travel regionally from day one. Not many drive coast to coast twice a year, and some people will be happy to risk not being able to make such a trip for another year or two, or having to rent a car for the occasion, given the benefits of driving a Bolt every day.

            There’s no doubt that the public chargers are a bit of a mess, with reliability and user friendliness issues in addition to the holes in the network. User experience as reported by users is an ocean apart for Tesla’s superchargers (excellent) and public chargers (half of users rate the experience as poor or very poor).

            But this will all take care of itself. It will be an actual business soon, and that became evident with the Model 3 reveal, which has raised expectations dramatically for not just Tesla but EV adoption in general. And that’s all that had to happen to create the conditions where investment in public chargers and competition between networks start to heat up.

            In a few short years it will be fine. And you won’t get there any faster with some centrally planned approach, because it would involve a bunch of parties that haven’t got identical interests. So I suggest you just sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

            1. John in AA says:

              It’s not clear to me that there is – yet, and maybe not ever – a business case for a profitable standalone charging network. As others have pointed out, only the utilities seem to be positioned to do this, and for whatever reason they don’t seem to want to. So I want to believe you’re right, and that GM is sensible to let the invisible hand of the marketplace take care of their charging network shortcomings, but I don’t think it’s anything like inevitable.

      2. beta995 says:

        For me 200 miles of range means 99.9999% of the time I’m not worried about a charging network.

        But, I am more worried about a twist-beam rear suspension in a $40,000 car.

          1. Clive says:

            Going to handle like a skateboard with that axle.

      3. James says:

        I think the Bolt is the ultimate city car, not a car that goes on 1,000 mile trips. We had a Honda Fit and loved it, and I think the Bolt will be a great second car for a Model 3 family who needs a more practical cargo hauler. Chevy’s partnership with Lyft on this car makes perfect sense, too, as it would easily service a typical driver for the day.

        Also, Chevy is conservative on range figures, so I assume 200 miles is the minimum, not the maximum.

        1. Terawatt says:

          Cargo hauler? Unless you haul across great distances, an e-NV200 would be cheaper and offer far more space.

  2. goodbyegascar says:

    Tesla is the invasive species that is fundamentally changing the DNA of the global transportation sector.

    1. evcarnut says:

      Not to mention that they may, by some chance Awake the “ARROGANT” Sleeping Giants to find that they were Dormant too long & too late for them to join the party …Just Like Eastman KODAK …remember them ?? From the Biggest to Vapor…..

  3. Alaa says:

    So does this mean that the Bolt will not make long trips? If so then why buy it. The M3 will use the supper chargers, while the Bolt, according to what he says is not intended for long trips.

    1. evcarnut says:

      The Bolt is TOO expensive for what it is. If they cut out the “EV” Discouraging $$ Money Sponging $$$ Self Important dealer “Principles” & sell it for say, $25,000 Direct before rebates it may succeed Even though IT IS A CARBON COMPLIANCE CAR??

      1. R.S. says:

        You really are a nur, but what should they do? Sell it for 30k without incentives until the tax credit runs out and then sit on a massive overcapacity? No they will try to keep the price as stable as possible, rather go down than up. Its GM’s big incentive dilemma.

        1. Mxs says:

          Yeah, you know by post name what will the reply content be … Without reading it.

          Let them troll.

          1. evcarnut says:

            Thanx Mxs

        2. evcarnut says:

          R.S 0nly F00LS Gudge 0thers…….THINK!

      2. TheSeer says:

        The cost parity between the Bolt and ‘3 will disappear by the time T3 reaches the market. Tesla has a history of cost overruns, and GM has a history of rebates, loyalty programs, GM Credit Card earnings, cost cutting, and other programs. I personally expect a differential of at least $10,000 – $15,000 once the competition really gets going. It won’t solve the “Tesla is cooler” element, but the “costs the same” argument won’t be hold.

      3. Terawatt says:

        Right. The car that will for a year be the sovereign king of affordable EVs is too expensive and a compliance car.

        At least you possess some insight into yourself. You really are a nut.

      4. jerryd says:

        EVCARNUT, again you show yourself so ignorant.
        GM can’t do direct sales by law.
        At $37k the bolt is a bargain now so of course they will charge that and should get it while they can as when the 3
        Comes out they will have to cut $5k at least if they want to keep production up.
        As will all the other EVs and lesser range ones even more.

    2. John M. Glennie says:

      It’ll take about four hours to charge the Bolt/LEAF, and 40 minutes for the T3.

      1. evcarnut says:

        “BREAKING NEWS”…… GM WILL HAVE AN ALL NEW …….”DIESEL POWERED”……… QUICK CHARGING NETWORK FOR BOLT AT EVERY GAS STATION IN THE USA & CANADA ….Now that’s about the size of it !…..

      2. theflew says:

        Where are you getting your information the back of a cereal box? The Bolt will charge to 90 miles in 30 minutes and 180 miles in an hour using DCFC. To “fully” charge either car will take hours, because that last 20% will be at a much lower rate.

        1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          DC fast charging capacity will only be available in the Bolt as an option; it’s not standard equipment.

          http://electrek.co/2016/01/11/gm-bolt-ev-battery-pack-fast-charging-full-specs/

          So you’re both right.

    3. sven says:

      What happens when a Model 3 owner is on a long road trip and needs to recharge in the afternoon? Can he use a lunch charger? 😉

      1. Anon says:

        As you well know, Tesla’s have more choice in chargers than any other EV in North America. J1772 to CHAdeMo. Who knows– if CCS catches on, an adapter could be created by the time production ramps for the Model 3. All bases covered.

        1. georges says:

          It was a joke about supper chargers. Sheesh.

      2. SparkEV says:

        First LOL of the day! 🙂

      3. Big Solar says:

        good one sven, u killed 2 birds with one stone.

        1. Terawatt says:

          Please stop killing birds.

    4. jerryd says:

      They are different cars for different markets.
      Both are great for those who want the body style, range , cool, speed, etc types.
      Both are market changers that will make the world a far better place.

      1. Both the Bolt And the Volt, could be made with BEV and EREV Drive Trains! That would allow them to hit on all cylinders for BEV interested buyers, as well as for the ‘One Car does Everything’ almost EV crowd, that still likes Chevy!

        The experience they will get with the Bolt EV should allow them to create Bolt 2 with both drive trains (BEV and EREV), and Volt 3 with both drive train options: also as an EREV, And a BEV!

        The Volt 3 could have a flat pack battery, like the Bolt EV, and the EV Version should be able to hit some 150 – 180 miles, and could be brought ought by 2018, along with an EREV variant of the Bolt! A Volt 3 EREV model should be able to have an AER of 80 – 100 miles, or more, using a Bolt EV like battery!

        1. Terawatt says:

          Rests on false assumptions. Nobody likes Chevy.

        2. jerryd says:

          Sorry Robert but you don’t have a clue on EV design.
          Just include real fast charging, 100kw plus, and no one needs an engine with 300 mile range.
          By the time the Bolt needs a redesign EVs will cost the same as gas cars so only fools in most cases would buy a gas car.

    5. Daniel says:

      Why do these conversations continually revolve around the exceptions and not the rules? Road trip excursions are not occurring on a daily basis for the average driver they are exceptions there can be many many weeks maybe many months apart An Occurrence. but yet it seems everyone is hell-bent on holding electric cars to the expectation of being able to drive Coast to Coast twice a week. It reminds me of buying a four wheel drive 7 seat Chevrolet Suburban for the handful of times You actually pull your boat with your family and full gear and get the thing off road. the other 360 days a year it spends either sitting or stuck in traffic as your commuter vehicle with only you in it

  4. Jim_NJ says:

    Unless there is a charging network and capability to charge in less than 30 minutes for 2 hours more driving , the Bolt’s sales will be dismal compared to the model 3.

    1. Dan says:

      First year sales of Bolt will be infinitely higher than the m3 that year.

      Since the m3 sales will be zero.

      Look, I share the desire for bolt to have supercharging. But if only 10% of the demand for the m3 is met by Bolt in the first year, that’s a lot of EVs. And a lot of these cars, especially for business, don’t need supercharging

    2. evcarnut says:

      DUE TO THE FACT THAT “GM” HAS “N0WHERE” FOR ME TO CHARGE THIS CAR…,I would never buy A Bolt Even If it were Half as Beautiful looking as The M3 & Sold for Less Money……

      1. SparkEV says:

        Tesla 3 will most likely be late. So for many people, leasing Bolt could be the way to go while they wait. That is, IF lease pricing is right. Going by Volt lease prices these days of $97/mo + $4K down from ev-vin blog, Bolt at those terms will be highly attractive as lease cars, especially those new to EV.

        1. Rick S says:

          I hope you are not basing that on the model S or X. The Model 3 will be completely different using a different manufacturing model. In fact, the model 3 is being designing specifically to be built in mass production. Neither of the other two were done that way. Also, based on the announcement of getting the VP of vehicle production from Audi and the interior designer of interactive 30 systems from Porsche tells me Elon is serious about getting the right people in the right place to do the right job. Elon still has aces up his sleeve that he hasn’t yet revealed. Elon is bold but he is not stupid. Wait and see. He has a history of doing things others have said can’t be done.

          1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

            Rick S said:

            “The Model 3 will be completely different using a different manufacturing model. In fact, the model 3 is being designing specifically to be built in mass production.”

            You’re making the mistake of believing Tesla’s hype, instead of looking at what Tesla is actually doing.

            Cars which have glass roofs and eschew a driver’s instrument panel in favor of a heads-up display… are not designed for ease of manufacture in mind. Ease of manufacture would include, for example, using a standard sized windshield that would be available from multiple suppliers.

        2. Terawatt says:

          Unless you can charge at home I’d recommend you get a bus card rather than an EV.

  5. Bevo says:

    Gee, welcome to the party GM. Different manufacturers’ EV’s don’t actually work against each other, they help each other. A rising tide lifts all boats, Elon and Tesla have understood this from the beginning, glad someone else is waking up..

    1. evcarnut says:

      “GM” is accustomed to “Failure” It’s No sweat for them when they spend/loose Other People’s Money…

    2. Nom de Plume says:

      Yes, thank you. I’m not sure why people are expecting a single car manufacturer to make every EV in the world, but sorry folks, it ain’t gonna work that way. If you want a Tesla, buy a Tesla, but if you really want the ICE to die, every carmaker is going to have to be on board.

      1. VazzedUp says:

        +1

    3. Spider-Dan says:

      Hard to believe Musk thinks “a rising tide lifts all boats” when he takes every possible opportunity to bash other, less-expensive EVs as subpar.

  6. Paul Corsaro says:

    There is a lot of people that will bye the Bolt because they just do not understand the total specs.
    I am buying the M3 with or without the incentive. I will buy the M3 even if I wait 1 year longer.
    The Supercharge stations, Autopilot, safer tired, range, air filter, etc and etc are the reason I will wait for the M3.
    The reason I will not buy a hybrid is that I want a car without: water, gas, oil, water pump, fuel pump, oil pump, radiator, Tesla maintenance is only the brakes and tires. Hybrids are like twin engine airplanes which have twice the chance of failure.

    1. Breezy says:

      I think some people who understand the full specs will still buy the Bolt. Its a hatchback vs. a sedan, and a Model 3 with Supercharging and Autopilot will likely be considerably more expensive.

      1. Nate says:

        Plus extra for awd. I like rwd cars normally, but from what I hear from rwd Model S owners I might want to consider awd due to regenerative braking feel. Since breaking is heavily dependent on the front axle, rwd bev regen not as effective and doesn’t feel quite right. In this way the fwd Bolt has an advantage against the base rwd model 3.

        I reserved and still want a model 3, but figure it will be a step up in price from a Bolt or second gen Leaf. Also, by the time it gets out Bolt will have been out long enough for factory incentives. GM or Nissan could still be options for me if the cost difference is big enough.

    2. Dan says:

      I agree breezy. Let’s say you drive 110 miles a day commute in a two car family.
      Especially if you prefer hatchback why wait probably two more years ?

      I really wonder if you put a m3 order in today, when will you get your car? I think 2 years is optimistic

    3. evcarnut says:

      Yea Paul…, But., You’re An “Educated Buyer”..Unlike the Unaware “GM” loyalists..

    4. SparkEV says:

      You do realize EVs have radiator, water pump, coolant (as you say, water), including Tesla and even non-active cooled cars like Leaf.

      1. Mxs says:

        A lot of experts here obviously …

      2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        SparkEV said:

        “You do realize EVs have radiator, water pump, coolant (as you say, water), including Tesla…”

        Yes, but you’re talking about a sealed system for the battery thermal management system; one that runs at far lower pressure and, I’m fairly sure, with far fewer problems with leaks and blown hoses than a gasmobile’s engine cooling system. It’s not like you have to add antifreeze and water every year, as you do with a gasmobile’s radiator.

        “…and even non-active cooled cars like Leaf.”

        What does the Leaf need a radiator for? I imagine it has a condenser for the A/C, but a radiator? A condenser may look like a radiator, but it’s not the same thing.

    5. georges says:

      Paul C. said
      “Tesla maintenance is only the brakes and tires. Hybrids are like twin engine airplanes which have twice the chance of failure.”

      Sure. In theory but have you looked at the reliability record of the Model S and the Model X?

      I know someone that has both and he’s hopping mad about the X and there’s plenty others over at Tesla Motors club that are having the same experience.

      When LEMON law is quoted on the threads, you know the natives are restless:
      https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/how-far-will-tesla-go-to-fix-alignment-issues-doors-chrome-trim-etc.69311/page-6#post-1531985

      And the recalled seat replacements aren’t easy to raise for now:

      https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1529627/

      Scan the thread topic titles. New problems occur most everyday:

      https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/model-x.84/

      The Volt, even with it’s increased complexity is more reliable than the Tesla Model S and X.

      1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        You’re comparing apples to oranges. Yes, the Volt is a very reliable car. Kudos to GM for engineering a surprisingly reliable hybrid drivetrain, despite its complexity.

        But the Model S and X are premium cars with lots of added gadgets. If the Volt was also a premium car with lots of added gadgets, you’d see a lot of discussion online about maintenance problems with the Volt; problems having nothing to do with its very reliable drivetrain.

        For an apples-to-apples comparison, try comparing the Models S and X to similarly priced sedans and CUVs.

    6. SparkEV says:

      Also about hybrids, if one engine on twin engine plane fails, you can still fly it. If either gas engine or battery dies in hybrid, you can’t drive it. That’s why hybrid of any kind, including Volt, is not an option for me.

      1. Jim_NJ says:

        Not quite true for the Volt. You could completely disable the engine (e.g. Remove the spark plugs, punch a hole in the cylinders) and you would still have an EV e/53 mile range.

        1. SparkEV says:

          Perhaps in states that do not require checks, one may drive it in that condition. Prius can also technically be “driven” with bad battery. Problem is that will throw check engine light, and SMOG check fail won’t let you register the car, hence unable to drive.

          And that’s another thing: hybrids require SMOG check, just like regular gas cars. Check method may be different, but as a consumer, inconvenience and anxiety of not passing is just the same.

        2. VoltOwner says:

          Not to mention just running it out of gas.

          (It will give you 4 more miles of battery range to find a gas station before packing in, more if you were using hold or mountain mode.)

          The opposite is probably true as well, if, in say 20 years, my battery does not have any range left, I could always just put $25 gas in it…

      2. Spider-Dan says:

        My charging system had a problem in my old Gen1 Volt. I couldn’t charge the car, but it still ran just fine on gas.

    7. Nate says:

      Paul Corsaro what you said above, “Tesla maintenance is only the brakes and tires.” is simply untrue. You might want to educate yourself about the true maintenance cost is on Tesla.
      https://www.teslamotors.com/support/service-plans

      $1,325 for the first and that DOES NOT INCLUDE tires. That is considerably more per year than any new car that I’ve owned or lease during the first 3 years. That is more in the range of the older cars I’ve had in our fleet.

      1. David Cary says:

        So we are clear, that number is for 3 years. Still too high but not horrible

        1. Nate says:

          Yes, meant to say first of 3 not just first but can’t edit.

    8. Terawatt says:

      So you’re saying aircraft should have just one engine, on the basis that there’s less that can go wrong?

  7. Breezy says:

    I does help by increasing awareness of other plug-in options available. EV sales continued to increase following the Model 3 reveal. I hope the trend continues.

  8. John M. Glennie says:

    Breezy, you encourage the question…. Will Supercharging be included for the $35 000 initial price? Each T3 will have the hardware for Autopilot, but to access it, you’ll have to pay an additional fee. Will an additional fee need to be paid for Supercharging?

    1. Breezy says:

      I think Supercharging access will be a $2000 option for unlimited use, same as it used to be for the Model S. It may be included with the larger battery. Margins on the base 3 will be too thin.

      I don’t see them going to a pay as you go model. Seems un-Tesla.

      1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        Yeah, I’m also guessing that Tesla will use the “Lifetime fee paid up front” just like it used to for the Model S.

        Not best for buyers, but best for Tesla using the SuperCharger system to help advertise its cars. Pay-as-you-go would be better for car owners, because it would discourage clogging of the SuperCharger system by cars that don’t really need to use it.

      2. Spider-Dan says:

        Absolutely, categorically disagree. If Tesla sells anywhere near the volume they plan, they will be FORCED to move to a pay-per-use model.

        If SCs remain free-to-use, with several hundred thousand MIII (+ MS & MX) on the road, SC wait times would be so long as to make the entire network useless. In order to make the wait times viable, Tesla would have to build so many SC stations that they cease to be realistically classified as a car company and would instead be classified as a utility company that also sells cars.

  9. przemo_li says:

    I’m still amazed at people so convinced that market leader Tesla won’t satisfy the demand but upstart GM will outproduce it….

    Let’s stop calling Tesla underdog. It’s false statement for quite a while.

    Nissan also share leadership position (for now). But for BEVs everybody else is distant slowpoke 😉

    Will LG be able to scale up? Yes. Faster then Panasonic? Not a chance.

    Hope they aim at 50k for the first 12 month sold internationally.

    Tesla saturated USA for now 😉

    1. Mxs says:

      GM upstart?? … You are getting the Sunday cake that’s for sure.

      What you and many other fanboys keep not accepting is that EV is like manufacturing ICE car … with obviously EV drive train replacing ICE.

      Sorry but the upstart is Tesla whether you like it or not.

      1. SparkEV says:

        So true. Just look at the finances. If Tesla had GM’s cash, it might be different. But Tesla is running on fumes and betting on upcoming new car, and that makes it the very definition of upstart.

        1. Mxs says:

          But that’s what I call a reality check.

          The only time Tesla could have mountains of cash and be as young as it is, if it was in ICE business previously. You cannot have it both ways, sell few luxury cars and be BEV only and be on solid finance grounds…. Hence the cash situation they are in.

          So, let’s finally stop blaming all manufacturers that they keep making money off ICE technology and pretend to sell BEV’s.

          Their time in BEV will come, with hopefully Tesla still around.

    2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      @przemo_li:

      Thank you for your “GM is an upstart in this market segment” post.

      I suspect you were not entirely serious (two smilies in one post is a broad hint), but you did make your point despite the obvious fallacy. And good job of forcing us to think outside the box! 🙂

  10. Ian says:

    GM calls it electric car segment, Tesla calls it an electric car market. Interesting.

    1. theflew says:

      GM sells a lot of different types of cars in many different segments. Tesla sells 2 which are in about the same segment.

  11. AddLightness says:

    At least GM admitted that it’s a long range commuter car and aren’t trying to advertise it as a road tripping car when it’s not. But without a complete 100kw+ fast charging network most people might as well buy a 100 mile EV for much less.

    1. jerryd says:

      Addlightness, what a great name and the key to long range low cost EVs.
      Just when are they going to build composite body/chassis EVs that need 40% less weight, battery pack for the same range, performance,
      cost ?

  12. SparkEV says:

    “Volt is for someone .. that can make that long drive”

    So what he’s saying is that if GM were to expand charger network, both in terms of charging speed (ie, 15 min for 160 miles or 80%) and locations, Bolt would be killing Volt sales. Given that Tesla 3 will dominate, I guess they shouldn’t make things better for Bolt.

    1. Mxs says:

      No, that’s what you are saying.

      What he really means is that GM, for now, continues to believe that providing charging network is not their game to play. Therefore if you want a reliable long distance travel you buy Volt. And he’s not wrong, because there’s not better and more affordable vehicle to do that.

      1. SparkEV says:

        Actually, that is what he’s saying. 200 miles range will meet close to 100% of driving needs of people. For those rare 200+ miles range trips to other states, you need the Volt. But if there’s infrastructure, you don’t need the Volt even for those trips. Not getting involved in chargers is exactly the way to keep Bolt from eating into Volt sales.

        Actually, it makes sense from financial point of view. Volt is their cashcow in terms of PH. Why throw that away with unproven Bolt? They might get into it when (if?) Bolt is a success, maybe to gear up for Bolt 2.0. They really should help with 150kW chargers when they get involved, and that spec wasn’t (isn’t?) finalized.

        1. Spark, if GM added CCS capabilities as an option on the Volt for 2018, they would get a feel for how much adding CCS infrastructure might actually HELP Volt sales, And Bolt EV sales!

          I feel they should have already added that CCS Option on the 2017 Volt, as well as installing a better and faster L2 Charging option at at least 7.2 kW! For 2018 models, they could add a 10 kW AC charger option as well! It would still only be charging the Volts battery at about 0.5C!

          Even 50 kW CCS on the 18+ kWh Volt battery is only about 3C, and if the 16 kWh iMiEV battery can handle that from a CHAdeMO port, I am sure the Volt battery can also handle that from a CCS port!

          If one had access to Multi-standard CCS/CHAdeMO chargers spaced right for iMiEV and LEAF use, a CCS equipped Volt could also use them, to stay at a higher % of all EV driving! Fast Charging a Volt on CCS should be about 5 minutes to 15 minutes, tops most of the time, and on occasion, might be 20-25 minutes!

          That would add flexible choices for Volt owners, too, increase the usage at CCS Stations, and if the use charge was decent, increase the value proposition to instal more DCQC’s!

          1. SparkEV says:

            Volt won’t get much use from CCS, though some will undoubtedly use it. Frankly, I had hoped Volt at least come with DCFC option. Seeing how Volt battery is very similar to SparkEV, and we know SparkEV is king of fast charging at 2.5C, Volt would’ve done just as well.

            But the point I make is that GM guy said that Volt is for long travel while Bolt is for city. Then having Bolt capable of long drive would have to eat into Volt, thus not good financially.

        2. Spider-Dan says:

          Even with a robust CCS network, Volt would still be better for long trips for the vast majority of cost-conscious drivers.

          The cost to use a DC charger is far, far more than that of gas, and will be for quite a while. Tesla hides this cost by including in the price of their ultra-luxury cars.

          There’s a reason why commercial charging networks are struggling to tread water. The cost savings for an EV come from charging overnight at home. Charging on the road, especially at a quick charger, flips the equation on its head and makes EVs more expensive than ICEs.

  13. Texas FFE says:

    GM should be paying all the Tesla fanboz for all the Bolt bashing postings on this website. Most people will be able to see through the bias of the Bolt bashing posts and will explore for themselves the benefits of the Bolt. So all you Tesla fanboz keep up your bashing so we can keep the Bolt in the public eye.

  14. Four Electrics says:

    I wonder how soon Teslas federal rebate runs out, giving the Bolt a $7.5K cost advantage for the next several hundred thousand units. Those will be some interesting times.

    1. Spider-Dan says:

      Based on sales so far, GM and Tesla should run out of rebates at around the same time… at which point Congress will likely rewrite the law to sunset it for everyone.

      There’s no way Honda and Audi will be putting cash on the hood while GM and Tesla are not able to.

  15. Rick S says:

    The Chevy LE, if you read the fine print, is just a data plan with one specified ISP and at a higher price than one can get with a cellular phone plan. It is not as big a deal as they make it. My 2014 Mazda 3 can act like a hotspot too.

  16. Marshal G says:

    What would help the whole industry is if GM wouldn’t lobby states to make it illegal to sell direct to consumers instead of through stealerships.

    1. NO iPhone for you!
      Bad Boys buy them direct from Apple Stores, so you are not allowed in to such stores anymore!

      What types of Harrasment Laws would you be breaking , and what civil rights would you be seeking to trample on with your suggestions?

      If you want to play the Un-Free market card, Maybe Russia would love to have you as a Citizen?

      Why do you think That Idea would help the whole industry? Or do you mean, “it would help the whole industry slow down the movement to BEV’s”?

      1. ffbj says:

        Once again. I think that was sarcasm.

        1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          Perhaps, altho if that was mean ironically, the actual intent is both cryptic and opaque. In particular, Robert’s final sentence seems to indicate he’s being serious.

          All in all, I have no idea what he was trying to communicate. And I rather suspect I’m not the only one.

          1. ffbj says:

            I was thinking Marshall G’s comment was sarcasm as I read wouldn’t as would, which would have made it so, but it was a mistake on my part.

  17. bennyd says:

    The Bolt will be the first 200 mile range electric car available to the public. It will be much more affordable than the Tesla model 3. For those who want to spend more, the Tesla will be next. The electrification of the auto as a significant alternative to a gas powered car is truly at hand and is a reason to celebrate by ALL concerned!

    1. John in AA says:

      I just don’t get where “much more affordable” keeps coming from. Elon Musk has done everything short of tattooing “$35,000 with more than 200 miles range” on his forehead or jumping up and down on Oprah’s sofa and shouting it. How is the Bolt at $37,500 “much more affordable”?

      I get it that people think the Bolt OUGHT TO be less expensive because they assume it will offer less value. But based on what we know so far, it will be more expensive.

      1. John in AA says:

        P. S. I would be pleased if the competition does push GM to significantly lower the price, because if they’d come well down from $37,500 the value proposition might be ok.

      2. JeremyK says:

        That $35K number is still just a design target inspired by wishful thinking. Musk has said himself that the design is not final and that not all of the suppliers have been selected. GF is also not completed and manufacturing lines are not installed that will produce the M3. This means that he does not have a fixed prices on all of the components needed to make the M3. I would bet money that nobody, ever, will be able to buy a new M3 for $35K, unless Tesla decides to take a loss on it…which shareholders will not allow.

        1. John in AA says:

          How much are you willing to bet, and are you offering odds?

      3. Spider-Dan says:

        Do you mean like how he promised that the Model S would be a “sub $60,000” sedan?

        Which it was, for a few months. Then the lowest trim (which mysteriously had the same battery costs as the next higher trim) was suddenly discontinued due to “lack of interest.”

  18. ffbj says:

    GM is like the iron fist in the velvet glove.

  19. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

    Shad Balch, General Motors’ manager of new product for its Chevrolet division, said:

    “It helps the whole industry. Every story about the Model 3 includes a mention of the Bolt EV and our target date is ahead of theirs.”

    So… does that mean you’re re-thinking your short-sighted strategy of farming out the entire EV powertrain to LG Electronics & LG Chem? Are you gonna move to bring that manufacturing in-house, so you can crank up the volume without paying LG through the nose?

    And are y’all making serious plans to build your own battery factories, or buy out an existing battery manufacturer, so you’re not dependent on LG or any other third party for your battery supply?

    Hmmmm?

    If not, then don’t pretend you actually have any interest in making and selling compelling long-range EVs in large numbers.

    1. SparkEV says:

      It likely that farming out manufacturing to LG allowed GM to get good deal on battery. There’s nothing wrong with that _if_ they have great design. To put it another way, if Tesla 3 is labeled Bolt, it’d still be a great car, whether it’s made by LG or GM or Tesla makes no difference.

      1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        SparkEV said:

        “It likely that farming out manufacturing to LG allowed GM to get good deal on battery.”

        I think it very likely… I’m even tempted to say “almost certain” even though we have no direct evidence for it… that GM only got that “sweetheart deal” price on batteries as part of the deal to let LG make the entire Bolt powertrain.

        But that doesn’t alter the fact that it limits GM’s production of the Bolt not only to how many batteries they can buy from LG, but also how many EV drivetrains LG both can and will make for them.

        GM would never, ever have made that kind of a deal for any car it planned to make in high volumes.

        1. SparkEV says:

          Again, let’s take a case of Tesla 3 as being made by GM. They thought they’d sell 100K and contract out to LG for that many. Then the demand swells to 400K with 2 years to go before production. They ask LG to up the number of batteries. LG meets or counters with 3 years. There’s no magic in supply constraint by buying from third party.

          As Mercedes has shown, in-house battery development isn’t always a good thing. What they need to do is to focus on core competency, which is carmaking (I’m a firm believer in Ricardo’s principle). In case of Tesla, they had no choice since big battery makers were not willing to gamble on startup asking for 500K EV batteries. Imagine Tesla without having to spend on gigafactory; they would be profitable today with cash in bank.

          Basically, making battery + car is fighting on two fronts. Sometimes works, but lot harder.

  20. Adas L says:

    Why GM won’t do supercharging network. That’s only technical crucial thing which makes Bolt inferior to Model 3. If tiny Tesla could do this it can’t be big investment for GM.
    Of course there is Tesla hype and power and coolness, but thise are second rate factors which are worth anything only if first priority issues are taken care of (range yes but road trips/supercharging no).
    So Tesla is building full car and GM daily commuter only.

  21. lithium78 says:

    Who is going to build charging stations for all these EVs? Private businesses will and they will be at every rest area in the United States. Why? Because everyone is going to own an EV and they will want to charge them on long trips. This isn’t rocket science, folks. It’s inevitable that EVs are going to replace cars with ICEs. The writing has been on the wall for quite some time yet at this point only Tesla and GM are poised to capitalize on the shift in technology. The Bolt is going to sell like hotcakes. Believe it.