Chevrolet Bolt EV Equipped With 80 kW DC Fast Charging Via Owner’s Manual Now Online

DEC 6 2016 BY JAY COLE 202

The 2017 Chevrolet Bolt, which charges at "about

The 2017 Chevrolet Bolt, which charges at a rate of “about 90 miles” in “around 30 minutes” via the official GM promotional material

The topic of the maximum rate the 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV can accept a DC fast charge has been a hot topic since the electric vehicle was first announced two years ago.

The CCS Combo charge pot for the 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV

The CCS Combo charge pot for the 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV

Is it 50 kW – the maximum output of most DCFC Combo stations today?  Or 75 kW, 100 kW?

Who knew?  As GM , frustratingly, would never say – just that the Bolt gained about 90 miles in around 30 minutes of charge time”. Which was a pretty random way to express the EV’s fast charging abilities.

Now, thanks to the release of the Bolt EV’s manual, we can see that the recent suspicions of a 80 kW maximum input (via GM’s media presentation at the LA Show that stated all Bolt EV dealers would have to install at least one ~80+ kW Combo fast charging unit on the premises) seem to be correct.  One can watch that video in full below.

On page 232 (pictured below) of the manual released now, is this disclaimer on DC fast charging:

“When using a DC charging station with at least 80 kW of available power, it will take approximately 30 minutes to recharge from a depleted battery to an estimated 145 km (90 mi) of driving range. This time estimate is applicable to nominal temperature ranges. In extreme hot or cold conditions, this time may be lengthened. A full charge will take additional time.”

Good enough for us!

80 kW DC fast charging it is for the Bolt EV

80 kW DC fast charging it is for the Bolt EV

Chevrolet Bolt EV plugged in!

Chevrolet Bolt EV plugged in!

From this revelation and earlier maths given by the company, we can fairly confidently state that DCFC charging rates will equate to “80% fills” (the normal metric when judging DC fast charge times, as the ‘last 20%’ really slows due to tapering) in a little over an hour.

If one would like to peruse the 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV manual for themselves to perhaps unearth some other hidden gems (like on page 313 that notes the first fluid isn’t expected until mile 150,000/240,000km), or just to achieve unconsciousness…the 360 page handbook can be found online here.

Video (below): GM’s media presentation from the LA Auto Show in November.  Skip ahead to the 7:45 mark to hear the Chevy rep’s reference to DC fast charging stations to be a requirement for all certified dealers expecting to sell the Bolt EV, and another reference to 80 kW at the 17:35 mark.

Hat tip to Gary E!

Categories: Chevrolet

Tags: , ,

Leave a Reply

202 Comments on "Chevrolet Bolt EV Equipped With 80 kW DC Fast Charging Via Owner’s Manual Now Online"

newest oldest most voted

It doesn’t add up.

80kW is 40kWh for 30 minutes and that is only 90 miles or 2.25 miles/kWh?

Unless that thing ramps up really slow and ramps down really quickly.

Or GM is on the safe side to use the “slowest” case possible when it is too hot or too cold…

“GM is on the safe side to use the “slowest” case possible when it is too hot or too cold…”

Nevermind… it is nominal temperature.

I can’t wait to test it out in real life.

Some of the numbers don’t add up.

80kW (which isn’t averaged to be 80kW or sustained) for 30 minutes even get you 30kWh should get you at least 90 miles.

Maybe GM is on the conservative side as far as miles added. It would have been better if they just show how many kWh it adds.

Maybe the numbers can be explained as: 30kWh added in 30 minutes and because of bad aerodynamics only 3 miles per kWh expected, then the 238 mile range would mean an 80kW battery ?

Well, the lowest range figure I saw was ~190 miles at 75mph.

That is 3.1miles/kWh. Assuming 10% charging loss. that is 2.8 miles/kWh. 90 miles would have been 32.1kWh. 32.1kWh in 30 minutes for 80kWh is an average of 64-65kW, or 81% of max stated rate.

I guess that isn’t too bad.

It takes too long for traveling and it’s bad aero takes so much energy it cuts the miles/hr of charge you get.
Say like the T3 that will get about 200wthrs/mile on the same charger in 40% less time

If you think the Model 3, with a similar sized battery, will charge 40% faster on Tesla’s network, you are in for a big surprise!

Yes, I do think we are in for good surprise.

All good things for those who wait.

Right. I would guess that the Model 3 will very close to a Model S fast charge rate, which for the majority of the charge time is between 100-80 kW.

Unfortunately #physics


For twice the price

You must think the T3 has only one trim.
Basic for T3 is the same or maybe less (note things can still change) price as the LG Bolt.

Now if you said “for 5 times the wait time” I’d agree…

I don’t see how Tesla can deliver a base model 200+ mile AER car as cool as the III for less than $40k. I just don’t see it happening.

But man, will I be celebrating if Tesla proves me wrong!

The Bolt looks like a solid BEV, but it will never have the cool factor that the III will bring to the table.

I estimate it is all in the numbers as to daily car production. Since demand has been established, Tesla can set high daily numbers. Ferrari sells 5,000 a year at high prices. Toyota sells 500, 000 a year for cheap.

Or they could just be setting expectations low for now given that almost all DCFCs in NA max out at 50kW. If it can handle 80kW, one would expect it to at least hit 50% before significant tapering. I’ve never heard of a gradual ramp up to max power.

80kW is indeed nice which would match the earlier versions of the Tesla Model S60.

I suspect Mustang Sallad is correct. With MPGe rating like SparkEV, 90 miles in 30 minutes using 50 kW is likely since that’s what SparkEV gets if it can charge for 30 minutes (even with taper). Since there aren’t many (any?) 80 kW out there, GM is probably just being conservative. It’s hard to imagine Bolt would be worse than SparkEV when it has slightly better efficiency rating.

If Bolt doesn’t taper while using 80 kW DCFC, that would be quicker than Tesla on average. That will address at least one of my big gripe against Bolt. Hopefully, someone with access to 80 kW DCFC will test it and write about it soon.

If I were to take a wild guess, I would guess the same. They are taking the sum of all limitations, and coming up with an estimate.

So it starts with being able to charge at 80 kW (Awesome!!), then the numbers get cut down to 50 kW due to the limitations of real world chargers (that will get better), then account for any tapering (every EV does that).

Once all the limitations are accounted for, the numbers sound about right. I’m sure somebody could do the math on that, I’m too brain dead tonight to put numbers behind my hypothesis.

Incorrect about the early Model S 60’s. Mine does 111 or 121 kWh just fine. Whatever that works out to, my charging session starts at over 300 mph, then tapers to 180 mph.

There are half a dozen used Model S 60 for sale on the Tesla CPO program in the US right now that are going for $47k to $50k, all with the CPO warranty. There was even one Model S 85 in that price range. If you want a road trip-capable car, sunroof, leather seats, and want to ride in comfort and style, you have options. Yes, that is $10k more, but it isn’t smaller than a Chevrolet Cruz, either.

Of course, the price differential isn’t $10k As you state. You don’t get a Fed or state credit/rebate on a used car. In California, the difference between your used Model S and a Bolt is $20k, not $10k.

To be clear, are you saying your Model S only has a 60kWh battery versus a SW limited 75kWh battery?

Even if it gets a rate as high as 120kW, that rate cannot be sustained for long with a 60kWh battery. So effectively, it will not charge much faster than a Bolt EV.

You are correct. The old 60S will get a little over 100 miles charge in 30 minutes.

But I think the real take away for right now and the next handful of years would be that if you buy a Bolt you shouldn’t expect 90 miles in 30 minutes when almost all of the current CCS network is wired for 50 kW rate. That will get you about 78 highway miles in 30 minutes.

This will change but not overnight. Meanwhile the Tesla network is already capable of charging at 100 miles per 30 minutes for an old S60 and presumably the same and maybe even better for the Model 3 with its newer cells when available.

Of course that may be 2-3 years but by then the CCS network will still have mostly 50 kW chargers. At least in North America.

SparkEV would get 90 miles in 30 minutes using 50 kW charger now, why would Bolt be worse? 90 miles in 30 minutes is probably using 50 kW DCFC. If it does 78 miles, that’s be worse than Leaf.

Yes, I agree. 90 miles in 30 minutes is for a 50 kW fast charger. GM wouldn’t give a figure for a charging rate that’s still in the future, but for a rate that’s available now at fast chargers.

I’m assuming highway miles. You can’t calculate miles per minute charging unless you take into account the drive cycle.

You will more than likely be DC fast charging while on the road traveling at highway speeds of 65-75 mph which means you will be getting around 3-3.1 miles/kWh. 25 kWh of charge after 30 minutes would give you about 78 miles traveling at highway speeds.

At standard EPA mixed cycle miles then yes you will get 90 miles of range after 30 minutes of charging and even more hypermiling around the city.

If Bolt is like Leaf (~80 miles range with 24 kWh), what you say would be true. But Bolt is closer to SparkEV in drive train tech (same company), and bit better in MPGe.

SparkEV with 19 kWh gets about 90 miles usable at 65 MPH (tested 98 miles at 62 MPH), 78 miles at 75 MPH. If you extrapolate to 25 kWh, that will be

25/19*90=118 miles at 65 MPH
25/19*78=103 miles at 75 MPH

Bolt will get more than 90 miles range with 30 minutes of 50 kW DCFC even at your “highway speeds”.

I agree with SparkEV… the 90 miles in 30 minutes is very likely based on conservative numbers assuming 50kW chargers deployed everywhere presently.

If one uses an 80kW charger with their Bolt EV, assuming they’re not in some temperature extreme, they will have faster charging than “90 miles in 30 minutes”

But the Bolt EV has more range and more passenger room than a Model S. It also has a higher seating position.

To be totally accurate.

Passenger volume
Tesla S: 94 cu.ft.
Bolt: 94 cu.ft.

Cargo volume
Tesla S: 31.6 cu.ft. front/back
Bolt: 16.9 cu.ft.

Leg room is a wash. Telsa has 1 more inch in the front but Bolt has 1 more inch in the back. So they have the same over legroom depending on where the front seats are moved to.

Then as far as hip room Tesla has 2 more inches per passenger in hip room than the Bolt.

Then for head room the Bolt has 1 inch more for the front passengers and 3 more for the rear passengers.

So the Bolt comes out with similar passenger volume not more than the Model S. And the Bolt is more narrow than the Volt but has much more headroom giving it more volume.

And finally the Model S is also a hatch but has almost double the overall cargo capacity compared to the Bolt.

Passenger volume
Tesla S: 94 cuft
Bolt EV: 94.4 cuft

Cargo volume w/seats down
Tesla S: 58.1
Bolt EV: 56.5

Bolt is superior to Model S in parking ease and maneuverability.

Exterior length
Tesla S: 195.9″
Bolt EV: 164.0″ (nearly 3 feet shorter!)

Turning circle
Tesla S: 37.00′
Bolt EV: 34.75′

The turning circle is a stat that doesn’t get the respect it deserves. I don’t know how many times I have wished my Volt had a tighter circle than the 36.4′ it has. U-Turns are a lot easier if you can just whip the car around in less than 35′.

I love my i3’s 32 feet…

Sounds like the Bolt would be much more comfortable than a Model S for 4 six foot adults going on a day trip on a weekend.

Yeah, Model S is kind of designed for those of us who are short. 🙂

Doesn’t the Spark get close to 90% before tapering? The Bolt might not be quite as aggressive as that, but as a point of reference, 80kW all the way up to 80% would get the job done in 36 minutes.

SparkEV tapers starting at 80% when using 50 kW DCFC. It tapers at > 90% when using 25 kW DCFC.

Great recharge rate of 145km per 1/2 hour

Charging rates drop quickly as the pack fills up.

As you see here, the rate drops off.

So unless you are only charging from 10% to 20% 80 is faster than 50 but not 60% faster.

Stop your guessing and behold the answer to the riddle: GM KNOWS THERE AREN’T ANY 80KW CCS PORTS IN THE WILD. GM knows most of them are 40kW peak.

I’m using one of CYC chargers in Alnwick, UK (made by ABB I think, you can check pics on PlugShare app ‘Greenwell Road Car Park (Part D)). On the CCS plug it says 500V 160A, Chademo 500V 120V, ac just says 43kw
On the last visit my battery still was cold, so accepted just 91A, but normally it outputs 115-118A@395-398V

I think they actually calculated the range and time in the add from 50kW. They didn’t know, just like us, that it was going to get 80kW of charging.

Now with 80kW (that in practice probably will be around 75kW) the bolt will probably charge up 200km/125 highway miles in 30 min or 260/160 city miles.

Oh, but it does add up. 80 kW is the maximum power, but the car will rarely if ever see this power.

With 96 cells in series, the maximum voltage will be around 400 volts. That means that the depleted voltage is closer to 300 volts.

The 80-100 kilowatt charger required to do this will operated at 200 amps maximum.

So, when the charge starts with a depleted battery, the rate will be:

200a * 300v = 60kW

As the charge state (SOC%) increases, the battery voltage will rise.

200a * 350v = 70kW

Somewhere during this process, the battery voltage hits 400 volts, which means the amperage must reduce:

200a * 400v = 80kW

Let’s assume that happens and 50% to 80% SOC, then the remainder of the time charging will be at a lesser amperage, until the charge ends and the battery is fully charged.


0% = 60kW
25% = 70kW
50% = 80kW
75% = 50kW to 80kW (we can’t know yet)
90% = 15kW
100% = 0kW

Totally expected. I bet it’s thanks to a higher battery voltage, approaching 500V. Hopefully all existing DCFC stations are capable of going that high, because even if they’re still limited to 50kW, you’d need to go up significantly higher than the usual ~400V of all other EVs to approach a full charge, or to charge at all for that matter. I’m sure existing DCFCs are supposed to go that high, as it’s part of the spec, but it’ll be somewhat untested and might introduce some bugs. Presumably, GM has had a bunch of Bolts out in the wild trying to identify any issues early.

The new eVgo chargers have a UL listing of 50 kW. Any higher than 50 kW and the breakers will pop. No, we are going to have to get a whole new round of chargers even to get up to 80 kW.

Bolt is still ~400 volts. It has to be so to be compatible with existing DCFC units.

that’s exactly my point – existing DCFC stations SHOULD go up to 500V since that’s what the standard allows for. Technically, GM could have boosted the voltage and the onus would be on DCFC manufacturers to make sure they can support that – not to say that GM might be inviting a few headaches regardless of whose fault it is.

500V is oddball. They could’ve gone 800V, but that would’ve meant all existing 400V DCFC would be incompatible. They could make it compatible with 400V with relays, but that’s additional cost that’ll benefit little with current state of DCFC.

When there are 200 kW DCFC out there, they’ll have EV capable of 800V, 250A, but not until there are chargers that can do that.

Every CHAdeMO charger, by design, can operate from 50 to 500 V DC.

Some have difficulty are or are noncompliant below 200 V. But I can guarantee you everyone of them will go to 500 V.

That means that any CCS plug that is colocated with a CHAdeMO charger will be capable of 500 volts.

What the standalone CCS stations do, I have no idea. Much of the documentation that can be found offers voltage limits all over the place, with 450 V seeming to be the standard.

But none of that matters if the Bolt EV battery only goes to 400 volts, like every other electric vehicle, including the second generation Volt.


Typical EV max battery voltage is:

354 volts (84 cells in series) – Mercedes B-Class ED, Tesla 60-70-75kWh cars

386 volts (92 cells in series) – RAV4 EV

395-403 volts (96 cells in series) – almost every other car – LEAF, Kia Soul EV, all 85-90kWh Tesla, BMW i3, second generation Volt, Bolt EV, etc.

416 volts (99 cells in series) – Tesla Roadster

Voltages you describe are what the battery would see. To account for losses, etc, the charger would have to have some margin. I suspect DCFC chargers are capable of 500V, but EV engineers chose ~400V for margin of 20%. At least that’s what I’d do if I’m designing EV.

If EV has 500V battery, then DCFC would have to be higher than 500V (600V with margin). That is oddball not supported by anyone AFAIK.

Nice! I was hoping for 60 kW charging, so 80 is outstanding.
GM seems to have bungled it again, though, with regards to marketing the Bolt. No surprise.

People have been speculating this for a few weeks now. I expect bro1999 to be here soon with an “I KNEW IT!” 😉 I believe he brought it up multiple times.

I think they’re almost certainly quoting it as the 50kW rate. There aren’t really any CCS chargers around that are higher than this that I’m aware of. Chevy always provides conservative numbers with their EVs.

Most drivers will be getting 90 mi at 30 minutes for the foreseeable future so this is smart of them. 🙂

Ha, you nailed it.

way to go Bro!!

Nicely done, Bro! I am hoping to see the Bolt really take off.
It will probably never get the adulation that the III will get, but it looks like it may be a very nice car.
Hopefully GM will start using the platform for more vehicles. The 2018 Equinox would be a great place to start, as would something like the 140S concept, at the other end of the spectrum.

Heated seat buttons on the touchscreen. Not great. I prefer physical buttons. It does have auto heated seats though. Maybe that’ll cover it. It has a 12V lead weight. An AGM lead weight. It has an alarm when someone disconnects your power cord, but no lock. You set up your phone to control the car by aiming your phone camera at a QR code on the car screen. There are a lot of pages about airbags and seatbelts. If the battery pack is too cold to charge then DC charging cannot be used to warm it! You have to use AC charging. I hope in these rare cases there is an AC charger around. It also says if you leave the car unplugged for a few days in “extreme cold” the car may not start and will need to be plugged in (AC) to warm the pack. Does this mean the pack is discharged? I’d love to know what “extreme cold” means, I wouldn’t like to take the car on a trip to a rented condo and find I can’t drive it away at the end of a trip because I didn’t have a plug there. The vehicle will stop… Read more »

Even at 50 kW DCFC, 90% efficient charging would mean 5 kW of generated heat. You really don’t need to warm the battery when using DCFC. TMS might start blowing hot air out of the battery even in coldest days.

However, L2 would need battery warming since waste energy may not be enough to bring the battery to optimal temperature.

I often wonder how Leaf (and eGolf) ever cope with cold weather; SparkEV (and Bolt) keeps the battery nice and warm (or cool) regardless of ambient temperature when plugged in.

My reading of the manual is that the pack will not begin charging on DC if the pack is too cold. It also will not heat the pack using DC. That means you have to find a way to warm the pack before you can DC charge. Either AC charging or building a fire under the car would do it. One of these is probably not recommended.

Since you have to drive to use DCFC, battery would be already in operating temperature by the time you get there, and kept warm via waste energy while charging. Only exception would be if you parked in DCFC spot and not charging for hours. But if you did that, you deserve to be towed away.

Well maybe I have a DCFC at my house…

Okay, actually you’re right. This probably won’t come up. I guess I’m more nervous about not being able to plug in at all in cold weather. I would like to think I could take this car on a ski trip and with this limitation I would have to make sure the condo I rent has parking with access to power to get the car warmed up even if I thought I was going to have enough to get back home without charging.

The thing is, this cold limitation is not unique to the Bolt. Basically this is in very cold (-20F below) conditions for a long duration and not plugged in.

In other words, in conditions where a normal ICE may not start, your Bolt with depleted battery may not start either.

I didn’t say it was unique to the Bolt. But I currently don’t drive an EV on ski trips. So it would a new thing to worry about.

I know people who take Model Ses on ski trips but they have their own places at the ski resort and they plug them in at night, no problem. I likely won’t have that option. You almost never get to use the garage at a condo and it’s hard to specify “need power accessible from driveway” when renting a condo.

And if it’s -20 then it’s -20. GM doesn’t say -20. I’d like to hear a number. And a number of how much range I’ll lose overnight at (say) 10F. or 20F if I can’t plug in.

Without all this info I have something to worry about.

This I should pretty well documented with the Volt. It has the same limitations when extremely cold since the battery is still used to spin the motor and start the engine. (When not quite as cold it can do this to have the engine start to make electricity to heat the battery).

Long story short, I suspect the Bolt EV will have the same temperature limitation, but I’m sure we’all know more soon.

Also, unlike Leaf and eGolf, Bolt/SparkEV TMS would kick in as soon as you power on the car. Within few minutes, battery would be in optimal temperature regardless of ambient, no need to build a fire.

That means even if you parked in DCFC spot for hours and not charging, simply leaving the car “on” for few minutes would allow you to use DCFC. Oh well, I guess you don’t get towed if you have Bolt.

I believe the Leaf uses a temperature management system to make sure the battery temperature doesn’t get too low. Of course this uses some of the pack’s energy.

FWIW, my Leaf has LED headlamps.

Leaf has sealed pack, and there’s no way to control the battery temperature, not even to warm it.

LEAFs in cold areas have resistive heaters in the packs that the car can turn on.

And you can always build a fire. 😉

Wow a BEV still using incandescent bulbs?! Say it ain’t so, GM!

Incandescent bulbs have no place *for any reason* in 2016.

On a $38k car, no less!

There’s just no excuse for not using LED taillights anymore. Bulbs going out is not only annoying, it’s a safety issue.

It’s especially odd on this car since the tail lights are on the hatch. Every time you slam the hatch closed you will be shaking the lamp filaments. I haven’t had a huge problem with tail lamps burning out on cars but when you put them on a hatch they certainly will go out quicker.

LED tail lamps also light quicker, this helps reduce rear end collisions a bit.

Update overriding myself, the hatch taillights are LEDs. The taillights down in the bumper are incandescent. That means the extra red lights, yellow turn signals and white reverse lights.

And btw, putting the reverse lights that low is not great. It didn’t work well on the 1st gen Volt. If you are backing over a dip in the road (like exiting the driveway) the throw distance of the reverse lights is severely impacted compared to them being up high.

So at least the issue of incandescent bulbs being in the hatch is averted. They’re only in the (relatively) stationary bumper.

Also incandescent interior bulbs.

I’ll have to at least swap those out for LEDs as one of my first “mods”.

“It has an alarm when someone disconnects your power cord, but no lock.” Yazaki J1772 chargers that come with the car usually have a hole for the lock. “Is it saying on 146 it can join Wi-Fi networks? With no NAV to update what is that feature for? Is it possible GM might do over the air updates to the car? Probably not. Oh, it seems the infotainment system will update itself. With no NAV, what would they update? The MP3 browser? Equalizer presets?” It probably has wifi capability so you can easily command the car to do certain things like begin charging, turn on/off climate control, ect for when you’re in your home. My Leaf right now can’t connect to AT&T’s cell network for that type of commanding, and I’d love for it to have wifi for specifically these reasons. “If you live on top of a hill you can set it to not charge your car up fully overnight when at home so you don’t waste energy you could instead save in the pack with regen driving down the hill in the morning.” Just set it to 80% charge level and problem solved for regen. I highly doubt… Read more »

By lock I mean holding in the charger connector until it is charged. Like a LEAF.

GM’s commanding system is only through the cloud I think. No direct connects. And spoken-of functionality is for joining WiFi networks, not creating them (that’s done by the OnStar system) so it couldn’t be used for that anyway.

As to heat pumps, coolant doesn’t really work for that. Your heat pump working fluid has to phase change (condense and vaporize) to transfer heat properly. This could be used as a secondary loop to bring heat to the heat pump heat exchanger (or from it), but that’s kind of what I was asking about, what is this loop really doing? Even if you have a heat pump for the interior there is no reason to have a secondary loop instead of just putting a coil directly inside the plenum in the dash like the A/C on a regular car.

Nope. Headlights are HID (xenon). Hatch tail lights are LED. Only the in-bumper lights are incandescent.

That would be a lot closer to what tesla does instead of just 50kW as originally advertised – that’s excellent news !

Now GM just needs the charging station buildout for EvGo and chargepoint to offer more than 50kW charging.

Let’s see if they last minute also say ‘just kidding’ about their earlier statement that because of no blended brakes it could not do adaptive cruise control by design?

Next they build 100,000 bolts ?

100k would be awesome!

It does have blended brakes.

I think the jury is still out on this one. This was posted from someone on the forums back a little over a month ago: I asked Chevy Communications for clarity on a press release from 9-6-16 talking about Regen Braking.…6-bolt-ev.html None of the media reviews ever talked about just driving the Bolt in D and using the Blended Brakes to get Regen, the way it has always been in the Gen1 and Gen2 Volts, the ELR and the Spark EV. After a few emails, here’s the clarification: Bill – Happy to review the facts described in the referenced press release. In answer to your questions: > Are you saying the Bolt DOES NOT have the blended brake pedal exactly like the Volt and the Spark EV? Correct – Bolt EV brake pedal operates hydraulic brakes and does not have a blended braking system. > You get NO varying Regen when using the brake pedal? There is some benefit, as result of decel, until brake pedal depressed hard enough > You are forced to adopt to this new ‘1 Pedal’ driving style if you want to take advantage of regen? The Bolt EV offers benefit from regen in default… Read more »

Jury isn’t out. There was a whole article on Bolt EV details last month on

“Another mystery involves the Bolt EV’s brake pedal system. Does it use the somewhat awkward-feeling blended system from the first generation of the brand’s Volt plug-in hybrid or Spark EV where brake pedal pressure slows the car by increasing electrical regeneration into the battery pack together with traditional friction braking? Or, does the pedal use a traditional friction-only brake pedal system as used on the original Tesla Roadster and Model S?

The answer, according to Ligouri, is that the Bolt EV uses a new and better-feeling brake pedal system that continues to include both enhanced regenerative and friction braking.”

The first gen Volt had a “somewhat awkward” brake pedal. It felt good to me. Then again I had a LEAF and that brake pedal was and still is trash. The brakes in that car are the only ones I’ve owned in a long time that I wouldn’t trust in an emergency.

Yeah, my Gen1 brakes feels fine. It was a subjective opinion by the author.

I think the Gen I Volt blended brakes work pretty well. If the Bolt is smoother still, good on them. I doubt most of us will be able to tell much of a difference, but the engineers on the Bolt probably are high fiving each other all over the place. 😉

The real question for me is, does the Bolt do stop and go traffic for me or do I have to do it like in a legacy car. That is one killer feature in commute traffic that I got to absolutely love in the tesla.

It does not have adaptive cruise at all. And even if it did it might not start again from a stop (some do, some don’t).

You can be sure it doesn’t handle stop and go traffic for you. You’ll have to wait and hope it appears or get a Tesla (and pay $5K for the feature).

The manual has the same restrictions against towing as Volt and the Leaf. Just like with the Volt and the, people are still going to be towing with the Bolt. Keep your eye out for the Ampere-e manual, there may be tow ratings listed for the European version.

Not rated to tow is total deal breaker for me. Just as Bolt was looking better with 80 kW DCFC…

Wait. What is the tow rating for the Spark EV????

In all my years of driving in socal, I have never seen someone hitch a trailer that wasn’t a truck.

Sparkev is just sour that GM discontinued their test mule (spark ev).

You should get out more. The world is bigger than SoCal. Using your car for occasional towing is useful, and very popular in Europe (a major marker for the Bolt/Ampera).

Most cars are tow-rated by their manufacturer, including the Tesla Model 3.


Ain’t that the truth.
If GSP stands for Garden State Parkway, then you understand my gripes, here in Pennsylvania.

We get everything last.

What’s the tow-rating on the Tesla Model 3?

Is there anything to see in Pennsylvania?

Europe’s roads are too narrow for truck and SUVs, hence the need for tow with those tiny cars.

We’re in the USA where the roads are wide and gas is cheap. Get a truck, if you want to haul stuff.

This isn’t most cars. Even the Model S isn’t tow-rated.

You’re going to have to give things some time. EVs aren’t going to serve the entire breadth of the auto market on day one or even year five.

It is uncommon to rate a car for towing in the US. Right now it appears there are only a few vehicles which aren’t trucks/SUVs or vans/minivans which are tow rated in the US. Porsche Panamera, BMW 5 GT, Volvo S60 and Subaru Legacy sedan appear to be the only ones so rated.

Presumably GM will see differently in Europe for the Ampera e where rating cars and small cars is more common.

Meanwhile just because it isn’t tow rated doesn’t mean you can’t tow…

As GSP mentioned, you really should get out of the house and see the neighborhood. Go to the beach and you’ll see few sedans towing kayaks and bonfire stuff. If everyone thought like you to follow what little you see and not try novel things, we’d still be riding horses.

I’ve even seen Spark Gas towing stuff. While new transmission on gas car due to warranty void might be few thousand dollars, battery replacement on SparkEV is $35K. If Bolt battery is also so expensive, one has to be very careful to not void the warranty.

As for discontinue, obviously you have no idea what’s going on in EV world (WTF is “KiaNiro”?). When $20K 120 miles EV like FFE come to market, SparkEV will be uncompetitive. It’s best to leave the market at top of the game than to linger. And having lower priced car that makes less profit and eating into tax credit is poor business. GM did right by discontinuing SparkEV (at least for now).

“Wtf is KiaNiro?”

It’s a ev rated to tow 2866lbs, which is 2866lbs more than your test mule.

The Niro doesn’t appear to exist as an all-electric vehicle yet, let alone have a tow rating as one.

Right now it doesn’t seem to even have a plug.

It has a tow rating in Europe. Bolt ev isn’t out yet and we still talking about it.

There is literally no information about the EV version of the Kia Niro. The full details of the hybrid version (including towing) are out. The details of the plug-in and EV are not out.

We’re talking about the tow rating of the Bolt EV because we’re looking at the manual, which is available. The manual for the Kia Niro EV is not available.

SparkEV is not rated to tow, but it costs $12K less than Bolt. In CA, that translates to almost half price. You can’t compare Bolt that cost almost double SparkEV.

But Tesla 3 can tow as well as some other $30K gas cars of similar form as Bolt. Not having the ability that other cars have of similar price, form, and function (Tesla 3) isn’t good.

Who said the Model 3 will be able to tow? Even the Model S isn’t rated to tow, so why do you think the 3 will be able to? Only Tesla rated to tow currently is the X.

Musk came out and said Tesla 3 will be able to tow. Check his twitter feed.

Called it like 2 weeks ago.:)

I bet you cheated and used one of these 1964 PicturePhones to peek into the future…


It just came to him after watching “Arrival”.

I did watch that movie recently….

I’m now seeing visions of….The Donald getting impeached??

LOL. As much as I like the idea, that seems unlikely. Dump is back pedaling some (many?) campaign rhetoric, and will reneg on them more as he takes office. If we can impeach for breaking campaign promises (fraud?), he’d be in jail for the rest of his life.

Maybe he’ll get a cell next to Obama who promised to close GITMO, promised to have the most transparent Presidential administration ever, and promised that ObamaCare wouldn’t force Americans to change/lose their coverage if they already had health insurance through their employer. Just sayin’.

He did everything in his power to close Gitmo. Congress refused.

Don’t blame it on Congress; blame it on Obama’s failed leadership. He didn’t push hard enough for closing GITMO. Per the Washington Post:

“This account of the unraveling of Obama’s pledge to close Guantanamo is based on interviews with more than 30 current and former administration officials, as well as members of Congress and their staff, members of the George W. Bush administration, and activists. Many of them would speak about internal or sensitive deliberations only on the condition of anonymity.”

The one theme that repeatedly emerged in interviews was a belief that the White House never pressed hard enough on what was supposed to be a signature goal. Although the closure of Guantanamo Bay was announced in an executive order, which Obama signed on Jan. 22, 2009, the fanfare never translated into the kind of political push necessary to sustain the policy.”

It doesn’t stop at Obama. Bush2 took us to wars (incompetence or lying, both jailable offense!); Bill Clinton lied under oath; Bush1 “no new taxes”; and the list could go on.

There’s great tradition in South Korea of throwing most of their president in prison after office. That’s a fine tradition we should adopt in US!

.. can’t wait for the first owners to get their cars and start uploading stuff about them on youtube.

It’s also surprising to me that the latest and greatest from LG can “only” do 80KW. Judging by some comments sections on different sites one would think Tesla’s charge rates are quite slow for their capacities but maybe there’s more to it than just “speed” ..

I also can’t wait to see the first pack tear down à la Jason Hughes.

The battery cells themselves might not be the limiting factor. Everything from hardware to cell cooling can come into play.

The only true 60 kW car from Tesla wasn’t able to do 80 kW either except for very short time:

Only P100D can keep up with full charging power for most of the time.

Though I don’t believe the Bolt can do it either if it does only 90 miles per half an hour.

No car can keep up with full charge power most of the time.

Not even the 100D.

You can compare these by expressing the charge rate in terms of capacity. This is called “C”.

A Model S 100 charging at 135kW is charging at 1.35C.

A 60kWh Bolt charging at 80kW is charging at 1.33C.

So given similar battery chemistries (and we expect they have similar chemistries) the Model S 100 will begin to taper off at about about the same time as a Bolt. Even if you consider the Supercharger rate to be 120kW the Model S 100 will drop off rather quickly (15 mins or so, IIRC) as it is charging at 1.2C.

Of course the absolute charge rate will be faster all the time on the S if the charger has enough power to max out the pack rate for a given state of charge. But both will drop from full charge rate using similar curves.

A Tesla with 100 kWh battery can’t charge with 135 kW today through supercharger because they only deliver 120 kW maximum. Maybe Tesla will higher this in the future but they haven’t done it yet. But on the other hand the 85 kWh battery could charge with 120 kW wich is 120/85=1.41

“No car can keep up with full charge power most of the time”

SparkEV charges at full 50 kW power until 80%. I consider 80% as “most of the time”. Since Bolt has similar battery cooling as 2014 SparkEV, it should charge at least as well (probably lot better due to bigger battery). I suspect Bolt will charge like SparkEV even at 80 kW (no taper to 80%).

The curves are quite different for Tesla models and probably by temperature too. Obviously different chemistry batteries in other car models would have their own curves.

I’ve seen the original 60kWh Tesla pack touch on 105KW here:

And the actual 60(75)kWh pack touching 100kW in this recent video from Bjorn:

“Though I don’t believe the Bolt can do it either if it does only 90 miles per half an hour.”

I think it’s definitely capable of touching 80kW, if not more, but what’s important is for how long can the pack cooling system cope with it.

As for the 100kWh pack from Tesla I’m only aware of NDR’s post at TMC:

“P100D Supercharge from 25% to 75%
25% 116kw
30 116
35 113
40 113
45 113
50 113
55 113
58 109
60 106
61 102
62 97
63 95
64 91
65 89
66 87
67 87
68 86
69 84
70 81
71 79
72 75
73 71
74 66
75% 63kw”

It’s not just a cooling issue. To charge a cell you have to put a higher voltage on a cell than it has in it. The rate at which the cell charges is then approximately (Vp – Vc) / Rc. That is, the difference in voltage between the voltage you are putting on it and it has stored in it divided by the resistance (really impedance, but resistance works) of the cell itself. So to keep a constant charge rate as the voltage in the cell goes up you have to keep raising the voltage you are putting on the cell to be at a constant amount above the cell voltage. But on a lithium cell there is an absolute maximum voltage you can put on the cell (4.1V, 4.2V or 4.35V are most common) without damaging it. Once you are putting that much voltage on the cell you cannot increase it any more. So then as the voltage in the cell rises, the value (Vp – Vc) will drop and thus the rate of charge will drop. No matter how much you cool the pack, the rate of charge will drop once the maximum voltage on the cell is… Read more »


New battery chemistry, and new anode/cathode construction is needed before more voltage per cell can be applied.

It is similar to the problem that high pressure H2 tanks face. You can’t fill a 10,000 PSI H2 tank from a source that is filled to just 10,000 PSI itself. You need a filling tank that is 16,000 or 20,000 PSI for the fill to happen quickly.

Filling pressure would be 875 bar for 700 bar tank.

Good description about the effect of charging voltage on charging speed.

During DC Fast Charge, the car is actually commanding the DC charger how many amps it can accept. So, amps are the control variable and the voltage floats to whatever it naturally is based on the pack voltage before charging starts, the effective pack resistance, and the charging current.

I hope the 80kW DC charge rating means the Bolt can take 200 amps DC and the pack voltage is 400 VDC.

Wow it is nearly guarantee that the battery will be 400 V and that the car will be able to take 200 A of course there aren’t any of those chargers in “the wild”.

Any of the dual CHAdeMO / CCS chargers in the United States have a maximum value of 125 A, while the standalone CCS chargers are typically below 60 A.

When the battery is fully depleted the charger it will only be:

200a * 300v = 60kW

As the battery voltage increases the charge rate will increase to a maximum of:

200a * 400v = 80kW

At which time the amperage will decrease until the charge is over. Sadly, too many people want to latch onto 80 kW as how much power is actually going into the battery, when the reality is that even if it hits 80 kW (which is unlikely), it won’t stay there very long at all !!!

You don’t fully deplete the battery. Lowest I’ve seen with SparkEV is around 330 V with about 15 miles remaining. BTC chargers show volt + current (very handy), but they’re only 100A units.

In general, constant current to constant voltage transition occurs at around 80% battery capacity (depending on chemistry). But if the battery is heating up, “constant current” has to be reduced. This is probably what’s driving much of taper before 80% (like with Leaf and Tesla).

These charging rates confine well with the laws of physics and battery tech.
No battery can charge with maximum power from 0% – 100%.
80kW is the maximum it can reach. When it aproaches full charge, the power has to go down or it will destroy the battery.

This is amazing! 80 kWr is fast! The Bolt is going to be the benchmark for a while. Can’t see a better value until Tesla gets its Model 3 into the fray.

It’s not charging at 80kW. It’d be getting up to 40kWh in 30 minutes at that rate and it’s obviously getting nowhere near that, since that 90 miles is less than half the rated highway range, let alone half the range.

If CCS is speced for 600V, then 80kW+ would be 133A. 133A x 400V charging would make more sense for an estimate of 90 miles in 30 minutes.

CCS is theoretically rated for 500v/200amp but the battery voltage is around 400v.

400v x 200 amp = 80kW.


The car will average closer to 70kW from 0% to 80%, assuming a nice warm battery and a charge capable of 200 amps.

That means maybe 35kWh added in 30 minutes at best (ideal conditions).

35kWh at 3 miles per kWh is 105 miles range added. It will be less than that inntypical conditions.

With a normal 100-120 amp charger that is already in the wild, the charge rate is nearly half.

So expect about 50-60 miles in 30 minutes.

That makes no sense. Why would Bolt that’s rated better MPGe than SparkEV do worse range with more energy? From my post above, Bolt will do close to 100 miles with 30 minutes of 50 kW charger even at 65 MPH or 75 MPH if you use SparkEV numbers.

Not bad! Tesla low voltage batteries (60/75KWh batteries are only 350v vs 400v in 85/90/100 KWh batteries) can only supercharge up to 105KW… is not that much difference.

I did not know that about the different voltages. Thank you for the information.

To further add to reality, even the big battery pack Tesla’s taper down to around 100 kW for a good amount of their charge cycle. So depending on the taper on the Bolt (and the future availability of 80 kW chargers) the Bolt could end up charging quite competitively with all of those Tesla’s when the chargers become available.

That’s good news for all EV’s, including Tesla. Because the faster EV’s break the reputation of charging too slowly, the faster all EV sales will increase.

Not true. My 2015 Tesla model S70D regularly hits 365 A at 320 battery volts.

That’s 116kW peak.

I suspect the Bolt will peak at 200 amps * 380 volts = 76kW.

Some caveats to that. If Bolt charges to 80% without taper, peak power will occur around 80% mark. Current will be full 200A, but the voltage is unknown. It could be 380V, but it could be higher or lower.

So it doesnt “need” its brake fluid changed every 10k miles…

Hello !
Very simple math:
218 miles rated at 60 kwh
90 miles it requires 25 kwh
To get 90 miles you need to charge your bolt for 1/2 hour from 50 kW charger.
Best regards, Slava

80kW charger, but charging from _depleted_ takes 30 minutes to charge 90 miles into a 238-mile rated car that apparently has 60kWh usable battery capacity?

Those are weird numbers, and really nothing to be excited about. Based on EPA range and reported usable charge that’d be a whopping average of 45.4kW for the bottom half of the bottom where you’d expect charging to be fastest.

We really need to know what the estimated 90 miles is based on.

The numbers don’t add up:
90 miles / 238 miles * 60 kWh = 22.7 kWh per half an hour. So it is at most 45 kW average, why would it require 80 kW charger?

If it takes 80 kW for some time, the next question is for how long? Does it do it like early Model S 60 just at the beginning, or at least from 5% till 70-80% SOC?

If we go by spark ev (bolt test mule), then we can safely assume very little throttling to 80℅ soc.

In a blizzard? Be sure to use a fast idle to keep the battery charged. LOL “If it takes some time for help to arrive, when running the vehicle, push the accelerator pedal slightly so the vehicle runs faster than the idle speed. This keeps the battery charged to restart the vehicle and to signal for help with the headlamps. Do this as little as possible to save electricity.”

“During the 8 years or 100,000 miles (160 000 kilometers) Hybrid warranty period, towing is covered to the nearest Chevrolet servicing dealer if your vehicle cannot be driven because of a warranted Hybrid specific defect.”

“Depending on use, the battery may degrade as little as 10% to as much as 40% of capacity over the warranty period.”

Yeah, In my area (Buffalo, NY) we have the largest or second largest dealership in the entire US. (Its back and forth between this dealership and one in Texas as to who is currently the biggest). So THIS dealership will sell the BOLT. I can think of one other dealership that will have no problem installing an 80 kw charger in their service area. But many smaller dealerships (and dealership families) may balk at the expense for them – which will be much greater for THEM than for a large dealership. Its interesting that during a discussion today, MIKE JACKSON (head of AutoNation – the country’s largest dealership chain), went on and on about ‘Stair step’ requirements that dangle cheaper vehicles in front of dealerships for making sales quotas. MR. Jackson said this kind of Murky dealing is EXACTLY what the customer DOES NOT WANT in dealing with a dealership, and spoke against punitive Corporate demands in general. He didn’t mention the BOlt specifically, but I can see many dealers summing up their costs and saying ‘ to hell with it – we make more money on trucks anyway ‘. The whole idea to me is wrong-headed. They don’t provide… Read more »

You sure change your story a lot. Before no one would carry one? Now one will?

If you want a used Bolt, get a used Bolt. I’m sure this will suffer the same catastrophic loss in value that other EVs do so you’ll get a great deal by waiting.

BTW, this article isn’t even about what dealers are expected to provide in their service bay. It’s about what the car can do.

You are dreaming about someone else. I’ve clearly stated I worry that only 2 dealerships in my area will sell the Bolt, and I reiterated the same thing here.

And here I thought only Pushi had trouble with reading comprehension.

As far as what this article is ‘about’, I was commenting on the requirement in the service bay in the VIDEO.

You think maybe, that if a video is INCLUDED IN THE ARTICLE then just maybe it is a germaine point of discussion?

I’m quite familiar with battery charge/discharge characteristics so I figured 50 odd comments rehashing that was enough and I’d mention SOMETHING ELSE WHICH WAS GERMAINE to this article.

So I’m supposed to be ashamed of explaining charging now? I don’t get it.

You indicated before, as you do now, that the expense may be too high for dealers and so you may not be able to buy one locally. I’m glad you now indicate otherwise.

But I still don’t get why you think you can’t buy a Bolt at a decent price if only two dealers around you carry it. If the thing is in good supply just two dealers should be enough to get a good deal on one. If it’s in short supply no amount of dealers would be enough to get a good deal.

So if it’s in good supply just get one locally or buy it further away and have it shipped in as necessary. If you really want the car you might have to get creative, but no need to despair.

You must be smoking some wacky tobaccy or else you’re just lonely.

One of my friends manages a dealership and I asked about having to install a charger. He said it was about $26K for all the tooling to be able to service the Bolt EV. I said “Wow, that’s a lot. Are you guys going to do it?”. He said that $26k is peanuts, and any dealership would be an idiot not to carry the Motor Trend Car of the Year. He’s upset that people are asking for the car now, but it probably won’t hit Michigan dealers till mid-summer, even though they are made here.

I recall the tooling for servicing the Volt when it first came out was also a substantial figure, but larger ($50,000 comes to mind). I would guess that at least some of the Volt’s tooling can be used to service the Bolt.

Ask your friend for some hard numbers: As I say, a very large dealership with a large electric service will be trivially affected. $26,000 just does *NOT* sound reasonable on almost any scenario. – That wouldn’t pay for even a 400 amp 480 volt electric service. And then you have the existing stuff in the dealership that is 120/208, and the utility won’t provide 2 different services – mandating that they make the old stuff work on the new service. If they spent $50,000 On the Volt, how much extra equipment are they going to need for the BOLT not including the charger. Then, calculate how much the 80 kw fast charger will cost them, how much to install it, and then also install a new electric service to the dealership along with ‘Separately Derived’ transformers to run the existing dealership loads which ALSO must be fed. I keep reiterating the big dealerships will do this. There will be more expense for those not so well-healed. However – 2 can play this game – A smaller dealership who has been a laggart in doing multi-million dollar remodels MAY be able to go to GM and say – “How bout we… Read more »

Bill the reason they were able to keep the costs of the DC charging low is because they are using a Bosch 25kW DCFC system that operates on 208/240 single phase input operating at a maximum of 138A input current.

Keep in mind these are being installed in the service dept. to insure they have what’s needed for diagnosing DCFC charging issues. This is the priority as opposed to charging for customers.

Dealers have the option to purchase additional units for other placements on the property as they can optionally utilize integral OCPP backend supervision. HTH-WOT

The Fly in the ointment here is the requirement for at least ONE 80 KW charger in the service area.

The reason I say it is wrong-headed is because an official GM Spokesman stated the REASON for the charger is not to do servicing, but to make sure the customer has a full charge when leaving.

I don’t want any preferential treatment as an EV customer, and they don’t give free tanks of gasoline to ICE customers.

I’m sure at these dealer meetings someone is going to point out this clear nonsense.

Since ALL BOLTS (whether equipped with the CCS option or not) can L2 charge at 25 miles per hour, it doesn’t seem much of a stretch to assume that with a plain old L2 wallbox the dealership could make sure the BOLT EV has enough juice for the driver to get home.

This is all the Tesla Service center ever did for me when I owned my ROadster, and I had to drive from Toronto, Ontario. I assume the vast majority of BOLT EV owners are going to be much closer to their dealerships.

There is no such “requirement” imposed on the dealers. Like I said the dealer equipment DCFC is 25kW

They are getting the little details right too. Like remote controlled automatic heated front seats, and optional rear heated seats that fold flat. Heated steering wheel. Lots of interior air bags. Selectable regen (if you don’t like selecting your regen, don’t touch it…). Wireless phone charging port. Lots of smart phone connectivity, like Apple CarPlay, etc

This isn’t your granddaddy’s stripped down Aveo.

It’s December. Why is the bolt ev still at status 4000?

Did insideevs just indicate that the manual is now online but not link to it? Or did I miss the link?

Just quickly skimmed the new Owner’s manual.

Other daily charging information that people may be interested in:

1). 120 volt 12 amp charging (GM really seems to emphasize people really should have decent charging outlets – they offer 8 amp charging rate but they seem to want to discourage its usage): 4 miles /hour or 50 hours to recharge.

(So presumeably if all you can do is an 8 amp charge rate, it will take around 75 hours to recharge your car, or 2.5-3 miles/hour).

2). If you have a 32 amp evse, (although one would think that 30 @ 240 if you have it availble would be good enough), then it takes 9 1/2 hours to recharge, or 25 mph.
Of course public charging at less current and voltage means over 10 hours at most public chargers to completely recharge.

3). Unlike the VOLT or ELR which had 2 – 20 amp accessory outlets (at least) on 2 circuits, the BOLT will only allow 15 amps total on one or all outlets (a so-called ‘200 watt’ limitation, very similar to my Roadster.

Interesting. If I had to guess, they probably discourage the 8 amp charging rate because the car comes with 4 amps of charging overhead, if it’s like the Volt.

Which isn’t to say that is bad. I remember the Roadster (and possibly Model S) have like 8 amps of charging overhead, so they NEED a 12 amp rate to charge. This was also verified by users who said a 16 amp charge rate on their Tesla at 120V doubled their effective charging speed, confirming 8 amps of overhead.

It’s great that Chevrolet has a car and chargers that are twice as good at being efficient when charging, but it would take a LONNNG time to charge a Bolt from empty to full with 120V/4A going into the battery. 🙂

Please precisely define “Charging Overhead”

I’ve never heard of that construct. Unless you mean the ‘derating for continuous loads’.

To run on a typical 15 ampere circuit, the GM products ran at 12 amps if a dedicated, and at 8 amps if a non-dedicated circuit.

The “S” may charge at a maximum 12 amp rate at 120 volts – not sure why they picked that since the roadster would go 12, or curiously, 15.

The 15 amp rate was for use only on 20 amp circuits. They could have made it be 16 amps, as Roadsters defaulted to in Europe.

I know of no way to get any GM product to charge at any slower than 8 amps, unless you use a homemade EVSE.

OH OH OH Ok I see you mean ‘parasitic losses during the charging process’.

They are all prety low in the Volt. Once the battery is the correct temperature that is.

The roadster I can definitely say was inefficient at all 120 volt rates. It is not as simple as saying a fixed portion of power was always used for OVERHEAD. The thing was just inefficient at 120 volts and the HEAT LOSS was more at 15 amps than at 12. It wasn’t like Brian’s water pump in his leaf. The “S” seems to be quite inefficient also, at 120 volts – but then so was the Rav4EV with a tesla charger.

But your ‘parasitic block’ idea with the Tesla Products at least doesn’t hold water, since the RAV4EV would charge just as efficiently at 16 amps as it would at 40 (provided the connector didn’t melt), but at the same time would be horribly inefficient at 120 volts. If a ‘parasitic block’ of 1000 watts had to be set aside,you’d think the 40 amp rate would be the more efficient. Bu they, and also the 24 amp rate, were the exact same efficiency.

Wait a second. There can’t be a 500 watt overhead in the Volt.

If there was, then charging at 8 amps would take twice as long as charging at 12 amps.

The listed charging times are 12-18 1/2 hours , not 12 -24 hours.

I was confused too, and assumed he meant “safety factor”.

Hi Bill,

Not sure what the losses come from individually, just that if you put 12 amps at 120V into a Roadster, only 4 amps of that effectively goes into the battery. So I think that’s charger efficiency and parasitic losses like other systems running during the process.

My bad on the Volt, you’re right… Its losses must be even less than 4 amps, given the charging times you correctly stated.

Oh, just to add… my reference for the Roadster is more anecdotal than anything… When selling the simple L1 EVSEs through EV Extend, I had many people tell me they preferred 16 amp connections instead of 12 amp, because the added 4 amps would literally double the speed of charging for the Roadster, and possibly S.

Hence my general statement that 8 amps must be wasted juice during the process. But again, being very general and hand-wavy here. 🙂

I’m happy that you rightfully pointed out the Volt is even more efficient than I was stating when charging. Hopefully the same will be true for the Bolt EV

One more point of mine to clarify (sorry, I’m exhausted)… when I’m referring to 12 amp charging above, I’m talking about the L1 EVSE using 15 amp rated service. When I’m referring to 16 amp charging above for Tesla, I’m talking about the L1 EVSE having 20 amp rated service.

The charging amperage of 12 and 16 I presume to be correct, but as noted above I’m just going by what others were telling me, which some may call hearsay. 😉 16 amps could really be 15 amps in the case of the Roadster, you would know better than me!

Sorry for all the confusion!

Well I don’t know who’ve you been talking to, but that wasn’t my experience with the Roadster. When it was cold (battery under 35 deg F) the charger would shut off and a 950 watt battery heater would run. (Incidentally this is the only time the ‘guess-o-meter’ would LIE – it stating the car was sucking up 8 amps at any voltage, when it was really drawing 950 watts and the current would be commensurate with the incomming voltage). Normal charging was not ‘systems running’ unless during hot weather when the air conditioner had to be run to cool off the batteries. There was only 1 way. GM products were always more advanced in that they had effectively 3 ways to cool the battery. The big loss from what I can see was using the main drive motor as the step up transformer. This is what caused all the lawsuits, and one frenchman talking about the Renault who also uses this system complained about the poor efficiency charging the Renault. Those who might think sending all the power through the motor would make the car lurch forward if the car wasn’t in park forget that on a single-phase induction (e.g.… Read more »

Interesting, thanks for the insight.

The couple guys I spoke to were west coast based, probably mostly systems cooling rather than heating.

So, “when using a DC chargingstation with at least 80KW of available power, it will take approximately 30 minutes to recharge from a depleted battery to an estimated 90 Miles of driving range”…..

Since no such charging stations are actually available it would be useful to know how many miles 30 minutes of using the existing 50 KW charging infrastructure would get you.

What is the max power of the 240 V system is the US? In Europe we have domestic 3-phase 400 V that can be as high as 11 kW.

John, by “Domestic” I assume you mean at a “Dwelling Unit”, that is, a ‘home’. And you are saying 16 amps (11 kw) is your limitation? I would think that wouldn’t apply in the UK for instance, but, in North America there is no standardized limitation. For ‘Residential’ (non-commercial) purposes, Utilities have a 200, 300, 400, 600, or 800 amp limitation, the most common limitation being 400 amps (96 kw). The standard for lighting and general use circuits is 15 or 20 amperes (1.8 – 2.4 kw) General appliance circuits, washroom, and garage circuits are 20 amperes (2.4 kw) COOKER circuits may be anything up to 50 amperes (12 kw at 240 volts -> the previous circuits were all 120 volt circuits. 120 volt circuits have another ‘Utility Desired’ limitation of 1/2 horsepower (0,375 kw) which is routinely ignored – some household compressors or floor polishers are up to 2 HP (1.5 kw). The largest 120 volt dedicated appliance (no other devices on a given ckt) is 12 amperes. Non-dedicated appliances, where other things may be on the same circuit such as ‘garage door openers’ may be up to 6 amperes. In north america, most smaller equipment is designed for… Read more »


The 80 ampere charge rate, now apparently being discontinued for new vehicles by Tesla, will charge at a voltage dependent rate (200-240 volts) at 16 – 19.2 kw)

There is no 11 kW (400 V, 16 A, 3-phase) limitation in Europe. Higher power circuits are just very uncommon in domestic use.

Yes, in Finland 16 A is de facto standard. Usually there are 10 A and 16 A fuses.

There is in many countries however, a finite IMBALANCE limitation – usually 16 amps. The Ampera – E capitalizes on this – seeing as it draws its power as apparently some of your cooker appliances do using 2 of the 3 phases in a 230 VEE/400 connection in those countries which only allow 16 amp imbalance. The Ampera-E having 2-16 amp chargers in lieu of the North American, and UK 32 amp single phase chargers still draws 7200 watts – exactly the same as the north american unit, at no more than 16 ampere draw, and with exactly a 16 ampere imbalance, the legal limit in some countries.

To add two mores thing if I may: if it isn’t clear what “natural gas”, then in your country it’s probably called methane.

Natural gas is mostly methane but can have some other amount of other petroleum gases. Propane is as far as I know propane. This makes a bit of a mess when making gas-fueled appliances as the two burn at different temperatures. So the appliance may need to have to be physically adjusted (new jets in the burner) to use one or the other.

Also, domestic service is single phase but with a twist. It’s called (in the US) split phase. It’s typically not important what the difference is but it does make it most cost-effective to provide 120V and 240V service to the same premises. You can google it if you need to know more.

The Brits call this wiring method ‘Split-Phase’ which to an American (like me) means a resistance-starting motor starting method, such as is used for most household refrigeration compressors, drill presses, and pedestal sump-pumps, and dishwasher motors which have either a starting relay or a centrifugal switch which disconnects an auxiliary winding when near-synchronous speed is attained.

Calling the wiring method Split-Phase just confuses Americans since the Brit’s use of the term is a bit of a misnomer. The original use of the term (over 100 years old now- implied a manufactured change in time, important since alternating current systems are periodic, and the American use, implying the importance of a time split or shift which is accurate).

Okay. I’ve never seen split-phase used that way for the power, only for motors. But I’ll defer to you on the naming. But he can still google it up under that name if he wants.

I hate that starting system, btw. Light-dimming, motor-stressing, stupid starting system. I know there isn’t a lot of choice in starting single-phase motors, but I do wish the US used three-phase in homes so we could have smoother operation and longer-lived compressors.

At least smaller motors (vacuums, garage doors, etc.) now are moving to brushless servo drive which can be started and stopped more smoothly, quietly and less stressfully. Even the blower motor on my furnace uses one.

Nope! Only a small part of Europe has domestic 3-phase 400V…

I just installed a 400 V 3-phase outlet for an EV here in Finland. It’s pretty common here as the cooker and sauna uses it in almost every home. 230 V single phase is for lights and other gadgets.

“Nope! Only a small part of Europe has domestic 3-phase 400V”
But it is usually (country dependent of course) just next to your house/apartment in distribution box. If you need it for some reason, you can order it.

The car that keeps on giving 🙂
80 kW is good, then it can take advantage of higher power chargers when they turn up on the market. I guess it’s the battery that limits the charging to 80 kW but it’s still better than 50 kW.

Four pages of the Tesla Model 3 manual got leaked.


Glad to hear it has more DCFC capability. Sad to hear they are losing 9k each sale. Hoping they don’t constrict availability. Get them while they’re hot… couldn’t this be called dumping to damage Tesla?

“Sad to hear they are losing 9k each sale”

You believe that, why?

He has private access to GM’s super secret financial ledger detailing profit margins on all vehicles, courtesy of Mary Barra.

*eyes roll off table*

I heard they were making $15,000 per Bolt! Now I just need 2 more people to repeat that and it becomes a fact on the internet!

Actually, you only need one person to state it for it to be true on Bloomberg’s Internet, apparently. 😉

This is great news. I assumed that they would be lazy and cap it at 50 KW since that is the most current CCS chargers will provide.

Even faster would have been been better but this was nice to hear. This makes the Bolt more of a longer trip capable car than I gave it credit for!

It might be quite a few years before there are ubiquitous 80-150 kW chargers that can actually do this charge rate at 200 amps.

Until then, count on 40 to 45 kW average charge speed.

Something that hasn’t been discussed with “80 kW” is what does it mean. If the DCFC charger is capable of 800V at 100A, that’s 80 kW. But since Bolt can only accept 400V, it would supply 100A, or 40 kW max. Since voltage is lot cheaper than current that require thicker conductors, I suspect 80 kW only means higher voltage capacity.

Sure, Bolt can “accept” 80 kW DCFC, but I don’t think it necessarily means it will charge at 80 kW. If you assume 40 kW (400V, 100A), 90 miles in 30 minutes makes sense.

From GM’s perspective, 800V units make sense, too, since that’s where DCFC is headed in the future. Having dealers future proof is a great idea.

Of course, this is just my pre morning coffee guess.

If they say the Bolt EV (the CAR) can handle 80kW charging, then they’re referring to their pack’s voltage range and the commensurate current to supply it.

It makes no sense to reference a high voltage standard not even present on current DCFC. That’s simply counter to all the conservative statements GM has made on their EVs in the way of range, charging times, degradation, etc.

So they’re talking 400V and 200A here, or thereabouts.

So the Bolt is a nice enough car and will do extremely well.

GM is incapable of producing more than 90K/year without retooling a second factory, and to produce 90K, GM has to stop making Sonics.

GM probably has supplier problems in ramping up above 50K/year.

It takes at least a year to retool a factory, and GM moves slower than that, with the citations I’ve seen being *4* years.

I look forward to the Bolt’s great success among people who can’t wait for a Model 3. And then GM will be unable to supply the market for several years.