Chevrolet Bolt Dealers Required To Install CCS Chargers

NOV 21 2016 BY ERIC LOVEDAY 156

In Los Angeles, prior to the opening of the 2016 auto show, Chevrolet hosted a Bolt event in which the automaker released some previously unknown details related to the electric car.

Chevrolet Bolt Dealers Required To Have At Least One CCS Fast Charge Station

Chevrolet Bolt Dealers Required To Have At Least One CCS Fast Charge Station

Among those details, the stand out was that General Motors will require all Bolt dealers to install at least one CCS fast charger.

Now, there’s no requirement that these be public chargers, but GM does say some dealers will install more than one station and that these additional stations will be open to the public (free?…pay-per-use?…only for Bolt drivers?…we don’t know the answer yet.)

The whole video is worth watching, but if you’re interested in the fast charger talk, then just fast-forward to the 7-minute, 45-second mark in the video.

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156 Comments on "Chevrolet Bolt Dealers Required To Install CCS Chargers"

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I hope they do a better job than with Nissan and BMW did with their L2 units. Every one of them that I have seen are either blocked 90% of the time, behind a gate, or both.

Make it accessible to owners 24×7. Not during select times the dealership is open and when they can get some guy to move the repair car out of the way of the DCFC. I suspect they will block them on Sundays or overnight when they are closed.

Yeah, if they’re going to make dealers invest in the tech, it would be nice for GM to require the stations be setup in a way that maximizes the ability for Bolt owners to use them conveniently and reliably across all locations, i.e., whenever possible, all stations shall be in a location that is accessible to the public for customer use, having appropriate signage to ensure station doesn’t get blocked, etc.

It would be best if they said that any locked or service garage stations would only be allowed if they first installed a publicly accessible station.

Perhaps with the only exceptions being situations where the whole dealer lot is gated after hours (if that’s even such a thing?)

Just thinking out loud here… 😉

One of the issues at Google is people not moving their cars after they are charged.

Yeah, there needs to be some etiquette.
Also there should be cost associated with them taking the space. Charge $2/hr if their car is not charging. I see volts, PiP and Fusion Energi’s parked and connected for hours to all day and you know they are full in 2hrs yet they leave their cars there.

This is exactly why I disagree when people say that wired charging is “convenient enough” that there’s no need for wireless. Coming back down just to move your car after two hours isn’t exactly convenient.

And coming down to move your car off the shared wireless pad is easier?!

With a shared wired station, at least there is the possibility that you can simply swap the cable between nearby cars without moving the cars (or even being the owner of said cars).

maybe the pad can be “autonomous” like these wireless vacuum cleaners, it can detach when the charge is complete.

With semi autonomous and cordless charging, the car can move to park itself.

I hope you were joking.

The wireless charging “pad” needs to be anchored solidly in place and provided with a (wired) electrical feed.

We’re not talking about beamed power here… Nikola Tesla nothwithstanding!

I agree those who have completed charging should move their cars. However your predilection for wireless makes the problem more acute. With wireless the vehicle must be moved for someone else to charge, with cables adjacent spaces can use the EVSE when another car has completed charging.

“Perhaps with the only exceptions being situations where the whole dealer lot is gated after hours (if that’s even such a thing?)”

Around here, all the dealers do that. At our local Chev dealer, it would be almost impossible to install the charger in a position not gated off.

Same here.
All gated and locked after hours.

Our local Nissan dealer used to be the same way. After they had a fast charger installed, they setup after hours access.

At one dealer here (and probably others, but I just noticed it at this one), while there are no physical gates, they move a few of their trucks to block the entrances at closing time.

ClarksonCote said:

“…situations where the whole dealer lot is gated after hours (if that’s even such a thing?)”

I dunno about GM dealerships specifically. But for auto dealerships in general, it definitely is “a thing,” not only here in the Kansas City area, but also near Boston:

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/07/20/local-family-saws-their-way-out-locked-car-dealership/

I regard as unrealistic calls for dealerships to be required to install chargers which are accessible after hours. At many dealerships, that means they’d have to install it where anyone using it would block the entrance.

Ain’t gonna happen, at least not at those dealerships.

Well, that’s specifically why I said there’d be exceptions 😉

From the company that crushed the first modern electric car:

Just ONE charging port? That is EV Tokenism, like Hollywood shoving just one black token per movie, to say, “See, we care… just a little.” Its a joke. They aren’t even intelligent about it like Tesla, which splits power from each EV line into two charging stations, 1A and 1B, 2A and 2B, etc. If they were really serious competition, they would pay each dealer’s install expenses and make them set aside 4+ charging spaces available 24/7, to enable long distance driving.

People who swear by Chevy should love this car. Its a decent “B” effort. But I know several Model 3 reservation holders in my family and not one is switching to the Bolt. The performance, styling and advanced tech like autopilot beat the auto giant cars. Tesla is the new Porsche. Porsche’s old motto: “There is no substitute.”

To ensure they’re charged for test drives and quick service diagnosis if nothing else…

+1. Yes, you need at least one if you’re going to be selling and servicing Bolt EVs in any volume. I’m sure it won’t be useful to consumers.

Makes it kind of difficult to troubleshoot and test CCS issues right?

Lets hope so.

I wonder how many stealerships will use this as an excuse to opt out of selling Bolts though because of this?

Opt out of selling the 2017 MT COTY? That seems like a dumb idea…

Then again, so to does selling BEVs without having a charging infrastructure rollout plan…

I don’t think anybody at GM has any megalomanic ideas about Bolt conquering the world and magically being suitable for long distance travel right now even if it means wasting hours charging in practice. It is Musk realm.

Bolt will be a great city car and is already well accepted by critics.

Because I always fill up my Toyota at Toyota gas stations. I think they are called T-Mobil.

Sounds like you’re channeling an ICE automotive executive. 🙂

That model doesn’t work for charging. Almost all charging will be done at home.

One of my local dealers have done just that. Their rational is that its not worth the expense for what will amount to 2-3 car sales per month.

Some dealerships are firmly attached to fossil fuel cars.

Good point. I bet that a lot, esp. in anti-EV states.
Unless GM offers some cost-sharing scheme.

Costs a dealer something like $15,500 to buy into the electrification program. Middle country state dealers who would sell 2-3 per year can’t afford that kind of extra expense for the few k in possible profits. Many opted out of the Volt program as well due to such costs.

The opposite in fact, very few dealers are going to want to sell the Bolt but will bark at the DCFC requirement…If a dealer doesn’t want to sell them they won’t, regardless of the requirements…

On the other hand, I hear DCFC is tens of thousands to install, requiring dealers to ensures they’re not financially invested in selling the Bolt EV…

The 24 KW CCS Chargepoint units are about $10 installed. They are not that fast though…

It’s one of the few things people are complaining about in regards to the Bolt.
GM is apparently just hitting the ball back into the dealerships court. In this way they can deflect criticism away from themselves.

If Chevy really wants people to view them in a more positive light it would probably be good of them to stop trying to hamstring their main competitor in the ev space, Tesla, by authoring and supporting legislation that prevents Tesla from opening stores.

Humble is not a word that most associate with GM.

Bam. The very reason I will not do business with them.

If you stop to think about it, buying the Bolt or even the Volt “Enables” GM to keep selling huge gas guzzlers…..lol

Buying a Tesla Model S/X allows tesla to sell their credits to other manufacture so they can continue to sell gas swilling cars/trucks.
So every EV sold might mean one less ICE vehicle on the road sounds better to me.

+1

+2

+3.1415

Make mine Pecan, please . . .

As much a I dislike car dealers and would,loke to see them all replaced with company stores I dont fault GM for fighting against Tesla companiy stores one bit…
If I was GM I would be pissed that I am stuck with a 100 year old archiac dealer system locked in by state franchise laws while my new competion gets to have a huge finincial competive advantage of bypassing a middle man that skims 1000s of dollars in my profits…
If GM was to try fighting the dealer system they would probably go under in an avaliance of lawsuits…

You are forgetting the dealerships offer tremendous value to consumers, according to GM.
It’s true though when they had the chance when they went bankrupt they dumped a load of dealers, something like 1/3 of all dealers.
Anyway it’s not entirely incorrect what you are saying, in that that is mostly what dealerships do is to add cost, not value, and that specifically is not GM’s fault.

The guy repeats the humble mantra so much that it starts to seem like he’s bragging about being humble.

Oh, so apparently GM realized that they do need charging infrastructure to optimize selling EVs…

GM is going to fumble this car horribly.

And CCS is years behind CHAdeMO

Who cares – ABB makes a dual-head charging station which has cable for CHAdeMO and CCS. They should install such stations. Or, perhaps that is the type of station that electric companies should install tactically and charge a reasonable price to resell their “electrons”.

ABB isn’t the only one that makes dual plug charging stations, all charger makers do.
Most utilities in the US though are regulated monopolies and can’t that easily subsidize charging infrastructure at ratepayer’s expense. Ratepayers typically don’t want pay extra for electricity to invest in some chargers for enthusiasts. California may have some exceptions, but it won’t fly nation-wide.

Based on my experience, the dealers will, through ignorance and/or malice, make these as inaccessible as possible to consumers.

The Chevy Bolt is a compliance car. Don’t expect too much.

Absolutely correct.

The Bolt is going to be outselling the Tesla Model S and X in a few a few months. Are you still going to be saying the Bolt is a compliance car when it outsells the Tesla models?

I admire your spirit, Texas FFE. The simple reality is that GM is very supply constrained on their battery contracts, to the tune of a global figure of 30,000 a year.

What this news tells me is that GM is trying to limit dealership adoption by putting a barrier to entry of a $50,000-$100,000 infrastructure cost (installed) at every dealership. If I were a dealership and was told I had to plunk down that much money, I’d break out my paper tape adding machine, and realize I’d have to sell 100-200 vehicles to cover the cost of the equipment by my margin. Realizing that the allotment maxed out at 78 per wave, unless I had 150 in pre-orders, I know I’d be taking an awful risk for a single model. Way different if it were every Chevrolet I could sell.

Thanks, GM. You’ve reminded me why I hate you, yet again. Clever, plausible and evil at the same time. If only GM were actually investing in dealerships and footing the bill themselves, then I would believe they wanted electric cars, despite their peculiar history with them.

Western states may work out for the first couple years. Nebraska to New Jersey – not that good. They can ship all Bolts to California and Washington for the first few months and sell-out production runs. But they need to get the rest of the country on board to be meaningful. Ok, add in Quebec as they seem to be on-board.

Mindless dribble. Prepare to eat your words when the numbers start coming in. Battery production is not a constraint and you’re way over estimating the installed cost of DCFC chargers.

This is old and may be $15K cheaper now but according to this, Page 34, the cost for One DCFC ranges from $140K to $215K.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/2015publications/CEC-600-2015-015/CEC-600-2015-015.pdf

That’s strange, because this article from 2014 puts the price of a DCFC station at slightly under $60K:

https://cleantechnica.com/2014/05/03/ev-charging-station-infrastructure-costs/

It says $50K – $100K

That’s probably a more accurate value. The one I posted, and I’m guessing here, may have inflated dollar values due to the RFP going to local government…..lol
Govt always get quoted a higher price.

also last time I posted anything from “cleantechnica.com” I got flamed harshly. I’m still scraping ashes off my asz.

The one from Alternative Energy Systems Consulting too:
“Battery cost and resource: A BESS rated at 100kWh/50kW could cost about $55,000 based on an assumed cost of $550/kWh.”

But dealers can maybe install lower power chargers, they may have lower costs for site preparation as it would be already established business place with powerful electric transformer.
E.g this BMW charger is 24 kW and just $7,000 itself:
http://insideevs.com/bmw-launches-new-low-cost-dc-fast-chargers-6458/
It is not enough for charging network or long distance travel and site preparation would cost more. But it may be enough for dealer needs and to satisfy GM requirement.

Here below is the list of some charger offers:
https://www.goingelectric.de/wiki/%C3%9Cbersicht:_DC_-_Schnelllader_ChadeMo/CCS_f%C3%BCr_Zuhause_%2B_mobil
This is equipment only. Upgrade of grid connection, utility demand charges per kW per month, installation on site and maintenance is extra.

Right. The cost of the DCFC itself is often just half the cost of the total installation costs.

These are costs for installing green field charging stations with multiple chargers for commercial purposes. That’s a lot different than installing single CCS chargers for dealers that already have 480V power.

ChargePoint Express 200 (CHAdeMO AND SAE Combo): $35,800 according to https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/chargepoint-dc-charger-prices.44513/

24kW SAE-only, from the same page: $13500

No reason to install CHAdeMO at a Chevy dealer.

Texas FFE, it is “mindless drivel,” not “mindless dribble.” If you’re going to insult what I wrote, please do your best to use the correct phrase.
Looks like I quoted $50k-$100k installed as a reasonable price.
And FYI, I would love to be wrong about the battery constraints, however by reading what’s been posted here at InsideEVs:
http://insideevs.com/lg-chem-expects-chevrolet-bolt-sales-exceed-30000-2017/

I see that figure of 30,000 units, regardless of badging. And, it read “once production is under way.” GM has already said there will be a slow ramp-up to production so if anything, I’m guilty of checking my facts at InsideEVs. Since you haven’t cited anything about the Volt-B/Ampera E demand, and others have identified that the install price for a DC charger is fair (taking note that CCS may be less expensive than alternatives), then you are guilty of your own summary judgment upon me.

“In South Korea, LG Chem Vice President Kang Chang-beom announced (via a Q3 earnings conference call) that the battery maker fully expects Chevrolet to sell in excess of 30,000 Bolts in 2017.”

This is very different from saying Chevrolet will be limited to 30,000 vehicles.

I agree completely. However, some analytics are required to determine what LG’s capacity for battery production is. You need to know about all their factories and what their current annual capacity is to back it up. And, that’s been done on the EV news sites in the past. Until LG announces a new battery factory coming online, their current manufacturing capacity is their current manufacturing capacity. Panasonic has the contract with Tesla Energy for the Gigafactory and the last I heard was some new battery factory in Germany in the works, for VW. Before that, LG was considering building a factory in Poland, but they haven’t pulled the trigger yet. Until that comes online, or another LG Chem factory emerges, the only other news bits would be GM announcing a new contract with another battery supplier and the ability to make their battery packs in-house. Considering LG Chem did most of the work on the Volt-B drivetrain (and other bits, I remember an infographic), that news is almost impossible. I’m not down on the GM EV development one bit, but I know the company and I know the contracts and capacity in place today, and nothing has changed. I supremely… Read more »

That’s surely the old Blink chargers which came with their own 440V transformers.

The new slim Nissan chargers are clearly cheaper to install, although I’m sure they’re not cheap yet.

There isn’t a lot of reason a 50kW DCFC should cost over $20K once everything is straightened out. I would think maybe it could get down to $10K. This is of course assuming 3-phase 440V availability in the area.

Texas FFE said:

“Battery production is not a constraint…”

Maybe not on the planet where you live, but here on Earth, it most definitely is a constraint to production. Just ask Tesla and Nissan… or for that matter, any one of the several large auto makers which are now making plans to build their own battery factories.

I doubt many people will buy a Bolt without a battery pack in it! 😉

I have a close relative that runs a company that sells components to GM. He said that the spec for the Bolt was the vendor was given a guaranteed buy of 30,000 units but had to have the capacity to go to 100,000 units. So, if that was done to all components (and I don’t see why not) and the Orion plant is quite capable of 100,000 units, I see no reason why GM doesn’t make 100,000 units. If the demand supports

Get back to me on that when they’re selling Bolts in Pennsylvania.

Currently, I pass three Tesla’s on my daily commute.

Victor said:

“The Chevy Bolt is a compliance car.”

Generally speaking, I see absolutely no value in trying to label any PEV (Plug-in EV) sold in volumes higher than about 5000 per year as “compliance cars”. That’s just ridiculous, and would make the term meaningless.*

The Bolt will almost certainly be one of the top 5 PEV sellers in the USA next year. It may well be the #2 or #3 seller. Calling a best-seller a “compliance car” suggests that the person saying that thinks all PEVs are mere compliance cars unless they’re made by a non-traditional auto maker.

*I see an exception in the case of the American version of the BMW i3 REx, because that version of the car was intentionally crippled so it could indeed function as a mere compliance car, maximizing the number of ZEV credits it earned for BMW, but only by seriously compromising the functionality of the car in extended-range mode. But that’s a different subject and a different debate.

This is fantastic news! I know of a couple of Chevrolet dealerships in the CCS voids that plan to sell Bolts. Not only will these CCS chargers allow the dealerships to test the CCS charging systems but they fill in some badly needed CCS infrastructure.

Texas FFE said:

“…they fill in some badly needed CCS infrastructure.”

Given the high number of complaints from EV owners finding dealership fast chargers to be inaccessible even during business hours, and behind locked gates after hours, this seems to be rather overly optimistic.

Now, the article does suggest that some dealers will install a charger intended to be accessible to the general public. But I wouldn’t hold my breath on the number of those being very high.

Honest question: say a Chevy dealer wanted to go head first into selling GM plug-in products….how would they stay in business? I’ve read the majority of revenues for dealerships are actually from service and used car sales, not new sales. Even if a dealership wanted to sell primarily GM EVs, would they really be able to stay in business? Unless they sold a YUUUUGE number of EVs.

Seems even if a Chevy dealership wanted to, they could not sell primarily EVs. The Bolt EV requires nothing but tire changes and visual inspections till about 100k miles.

Most dealerships need the steady flow of money coming in from ICE service to stay in business.

I think it’s a bit more than that. You still need to inspect suspension linkages, brake pads, wiper blades, cabin air filters, and washer fluid. Replace the 12V battery. Yeah, I think that is about it. Oh. Yeah, I guess that’s mostly visual inspections!

And this whole “bad for dealership” thing is precisely why GM is spending millions lobbying against the rising tide that Tesla Motors is bringing.

Where’s my Camaro EV? Blazer EV? Nothing in the works. Sure, some hybrids, but that’s reluctance, not commitment.

At least VW Group sounds like they are committed.

The active cooling, read liquid, will require maintenance, fluid flush/refresh. Just ask anyone who has en EV with Tesla parts and ask how much THAT cost them…..lol

SparkEV coolant interval is 90K miles. I suspect Bolt will be at least as long.

+1
Good to know!!!

FYI, here is the Bolt’s maintenance schedule:

Thats the same as my GEN 1 VOLT. The coolants are ‘good’ for 150,000 miles (or 5 years, which usually comes first).

So I better have the 3 radiators flushed in the VOLT. Wonder if they charge me 3 times the price.

I forget how often the transmission oil/cooler has to be flushed.

“majority of revenues for dealerships are actually from service and used car sales, not new sales”

It changed long time ago if it ever was true. Revenue is from car sales, warranty service is requirement to be able to sell new cars. Warranty service rates are paid and dictated by automaker and they don’t pay more than minimum. Cars are more reliable and need very little service during first years nowdays. Once a car is out of warranty, you have competition from every service shop in the area (except for Tesla) and “right to fix yourself” legal requirements (except for Tesla).

I’m sure this will come as a great surprise to, oh, everyone who knows much about car dealerships. 🙄

For example, Edmunds.com:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/where-does-the-car-dealer-make-money.html

* * * * *

Honestly, there’s no need for anyone to waste his time checking zzzzzzzzzz’s claims in his Tesla-bashing posts. What he claims is never true, and very likely he knows it.

Pu-pu,

I know numbers may be difficult for you, but 44% in this statistics is less than even half, not “majority”. More, it is GROSS profit, not Net. Expenses for all the latest service equipment, training may be not so small.

Certainly a dealership selling primarily PEVs would have to settle for a lower profit margin, because most dealerships get most of their income from service, not sales. That would work best if they go for volume sales, rather than trying to use dishonest business practices to fleece their customers out of every last unneeded upsell option (“underbody rust proofing!”) and every fee for unneeded service.

But overall, a higher volumes of sales per dealership would require some of the current dealers to go out of business. That’s a grim prospect for anyone in the business.

I think the dealership business model is outmoded, and arguably auto makers need to “cut out the middleman” by getting rid of the dealerships, as Tesla Motors has done. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have sympathy for at least some of the dealers’ employees who will lose their jobs. I do have sympathy for the honest ones, however many or few there are.

Bro1999 said pretty much exactly this in that dealers will require DCFC. I wonder if that guy is GM insider posing as just another forum poster.

Targeting general public is fine, but I hope GM release more technical info for us EV geeks. George Bower?

I’m just a guy that knows how to dig up info. 😉

Perhaps Chevy should make sure all the Bolts actually have a DCFC socket!

Correct me if i’m wrong but they said it’s a $750.00 option.

Exactly, should be standard. It’s a socket, 2 wires and an algorithm.

Chevy, make the CCS module in the Bolt standard!!!!! BMW made that mistake with the i3, now corrected. As it stands now, it is optional and people new to electric cars are not aware of the importance.

DCFC is too dang expensive IMHO, that’s why there are so few.
Chargers are still need in many more places. I went to a mall this weekend, a pretty big mall, thousands of people in Roseville Galleria and there were only 2 J1772 charge ports.

There needs to be more AC L2 chargers but more importantly AC L2 needs to be bumped up to at leaset 15KW. Most EV’s will do 3.3KW, 6.6KW and Tesla/RAV4 10KW.

This should cost much less than DCFC making it easier to roll out.

The point is you don’t GENERALY need to charge at your local mall, you do that at home overnight. Of coarse it migh be useful to some, but its not like every parking spot needs a charger.

As for DCFC being too expensive, well don’t open a gas station then, they cost millions and you only earn a few cents per gallon.

DCFC is the only was you can quickly fill an EV with charge, of coarse it should be a standard feature. Even if you don’t use it often, you will need it sooner or later. Its basically 2 cables from the socket straight to the battery with some logic control. On the vehicle side there is much less expense that the AC charger.

Then why are they always filled with PHEV’s?
they don’t ~NEED~ to charge, they have an ICE!

Most if not all EV drivers would prefer to be able to charge if they know they will be there for 1-2+ hours.

Public charging should be limited to just BEV’s.

These will most likely be locked after hours like many other locations. GM really can’t tell them to make them available for all EV’ers.

This just kicks the can to the stealerships so GM isn’t required to support their EV products infrastructurally so they can focus on resources to prevent Tesla from selling in key states.

I think bean-counters at GM said, hey look there are plenty of wealthy dealerships who would pick up the hot branding iron if it could be used to rustle some cattle from competing dealerships.
So you want a Bolt you got come down to “Bad Ass Bobs” Chevy, and get one and charge it up and ride on down the road. Of course you could always try “Ralph’s Spoilsport Motors” in the Valley.
Right off the old Antelope Freeway…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHtPgfVgg0M

Ahh, in the City of Emphysema (cough) I’ve been there.

So, let me get this straight… Nissan requires their dealerships to install stations, and they’re brilliant and pro EV. GM does it and they’re foolish and it’s a cheap ploy?

Hmmmmm

It’s not even worth pointing out the hypocrisy.

GM could announce a free nationwide charging network, and the trolls would come up with a conspiracy theory.

The biases are just way too obvious. Who are they kidding! 🙂

“on an 80kW charger you can get 90 miles in 30 minutes”

That’s the first mention of 80kW I have heard.

90 miles in 30 minutes… This is most likely based on a number such as 50KW. 50KW for an hour would offer 180 miles. The car has about 60 kWh on board and offers 238 range. So, it is far more likely that they are giving it roughly a 4 mies per kWh, and at 50KW, you get 25 * 4 or nearly 100 miles in 30 minutes.

80kW is an awfully specific number.

Its at 17:39 in the video.

The speaker may have made a mistake. 80 kW for 30 minutes is 40 kWh which is 66.6%. Even if you assume 10% loss (like SparkEV), that’s still 60%. 238 miles of 60% is 143 miles.

Doing the math other way and assuming 90 miles (38% = 23 kWh) with 80 kW for 30 minutes (40 kWh), loss would have to be 40-23=17kWh, or 58% efficient. 17kWh of heat in 30 minutes could melt steel! That can’t be right.

I wonder if Tavel accidentally blurted out the Bolt’s max DC charge rate by mistake? He knew all the other numbers like the back of his hand. 😉

So according to this insideevs page:

http://insideevs.com/supercharging-tesla-model-s-60-kwh-versus-85-kwh-video-graphs/

The Tesla model s 60KW version gets about 80 to 86 miles of added range on supercharger in 30 minutes, vs the 85kW of 136 miles extra in 30 minutes.

Food for thought.

That was the old 60, the new one is really a 75 with 15kWh inaccessible, so it charges faster.

So the Bolt won’t be as fast as a new 60. But still, no one claimed that rate was unacceptable before, so why all the crying now?

I don’t know why you take this as a complaint. We are simply trying to figure out what the accurate charge figures are. Chill out.

You’re confusing kW with kWh.

As far as the 80 kw statement in the video – its possible this guy misspoke and meant to say 50 kw. I’m as serious about being an early purchaser of the BOLT as anyone, however: 1). I do not want to pay extra for CCS. Its only $750 if you want it, not $1800 like Nissan used to charge for it, but it does have a very respectible 7200 watt charger, not 3300 or 3600 as all previous ones were – so here GM indeed did listen to their customer base. Why do people, especially those who will never part with their cash to GM, keep insisting on it being manatory for people like me (currently on my 4th EV), that don’t want it? Thankfully here GM is ignoring the peanut gallery and giving me what their CUSTOMERS have said they wanted. That rightfully excludes most here. 2). I do think it is wrong headed to MANDATE their dealers provide CCS – maybe a compromise would be to only insist on a 20 kw charger. A 50 kw CCS charger could not be run on most of the smaller dealers’ electric services – those are only good usually for… Read more »

Bill, two problems.
1. Car shoppers don’t always learn everything they should before they buy a car. Many may not know what DCFC is and whether they should get it or not. That is the main reason that it should be standard equipment.
2. I didn’t see anywhere that dealerships have to install 50kW chargers. The VW dealers that sell a lot of e-Golf cars in Silicon Valley now have CCS chargers, but they are the ChargePoint 24kW units, not 50kW. When they didn’t have them, they were not able to do any DCFC troubleshooting. That is the main reason that they are needed at the dealership.

Mike I. said:

“The VW dealers… now have CCS chargers… When they didn’t have them, they were not able to do any DCFC troubleshooting. That is the main reason that they are needed at the dealership.”

Given that fact, it seems likely to me that this is likely why GM is doing it, too. Or at least one of the reasons.

Thanks for the info!

Bill Howland said:

“I fear the point of making it MANDATORY is that smaller dealerships will just say ‘forget it’. Less competition will mean I’ll have to pay more $$$ to a larger dealership.”

Perhaps that is GM’s intent. We’ve seen a lot of complaints about dealer salesmen who know nothing about the PEV (Plug-in EV) the customer was interested in; salesmen who try to steer the customer to a gasmobile instead.

Perhaps GM thinks concentrating sales of the Bolt at fewer dealerships will make it more likely that salesmen at those fewer dealerships will be familiar with the car, and will be more likely to try to sell the Bolt. If so, GM may well be right.

Assuming this is GM’s intent: That doesn’t necessarily make it better for the average customer. But it might make things better for GM’s profit margin on the Bolt.

After reading Mike I.’s post above, it appears likely that my scenario is not GM’s primary reason for requiring Bolt dealers have DCFC stations.

Sticking with 60kW service is like trying to hold back the tide. If they don’t have to upgrade their electrical service for this they’ll have to do it for something else later.

Electricity is used for a lot more things now and plug-ins are coming. So while I hear you about expensive remodels, I don’t agree that a asking a dealer to keep up electrically is a mistake.

I think the argument that the Bolt shouldn’t have CCS standard doesn’t apply well to the Premier. The initial announcement implied CCS would be standard on the Premier. It should be.

Unlucky and Pushi:

Well, whatever their policy is, I’m going to have to accept it – I’m just one customer after all, and if they do something I can’t accomodate myself to, then as always I’ll vote with my feet.

The only thing that would make ME walk at this point would be:

1). A small minority of dealers are the only ones who want to sell the BOLT, in view of what is viewed BY THEM as too onerous requirements.

( I would have thought GM would have learned their lesson with the ELR – only 25 % of the caddy dealerships in my area sold the car – 75% didn’t think it was worth it to them – and we know how many sales records the car broke.)

If whatever dealers remain charge over list price – I won’t buy one.

2). I’m only planning on using the car for short or medium hauls. Distant vacations will be taken in my PHEV. Therefore, I don’t want or need CCS.

My old-fashioned 30 amp wallbox in my garage will work just fine. The other PHEV’s can charge at 120 volts until the BOLT is done.

I have my issues with GM — dishonesty over how Voltec works, and more recently GM’s support of legislation blocking Tesla sales — but I think it’s inappropriate to use the Cadillac ELR as an example of GM’s attitude toward PEVs (Plug-in EVs). Sure, it appears the ELR was designed to fail, especially considering how overpriced it was when first released.

But with the Bolt, GM seems to be making a genuine effort toward making and selling a compelling BEV. I’m skeptical that they will ramp up production to meet demand in future years, but let’s wait and see what happens. Let’s wait until we’re bitten before we start crying.

Well, there’s no crying here, and I’m quite satisfied with my current EV’s – faults and all – they are not perfect cars, but…they are VERY GOOD cars.

GM stopped lieing in early 2012 about the Voltec. They were trying to get some stupid high-occupancy permit for the car for manhattan (99.9% of the rest of NY STATE was unaffected), but the NYSDMV said ‘you’re not fooling anyone’.

In any event a relatively long time ago.

Re: Crying there have been too many tears over the ELR’s list price. Caddy pricing differs from other GM brands, in that dickering is expected. Few people pay the initial asking price (Unlike some other ev makers where the price is non-negotiable).

Who said anything about making it mandadory???

“Making IT mandatory”. There were several ITS discussed, but apparently the current policy is to be At Least 1 CCS charger in the service bay, not for servicing, but for giving the customer a “Full Tank Of Gas” with every service call, something they never do with Gasoline customers. Now, to service the CCS system, everything could be tested with a ‘dummy 1kw’ plug in the wall charger, EXCEPT a heating problem. The dummy unit in this case could intermittently ‘pulse’ all the power wiring to find the bad contacts/connections, and it would be the rare snakey problem that it wouldn’t find. All protocol type problems would be sniffed out. Size of the MANDATED SERVICE BAY CCS charger was not specified, but presumably the “PUBLIC FACED” charger(S) could be anything the dealer wanted since there can be 0-50 of them. The policy of the car purchase is a CCS jack is an optional $750 on both basic and premier models, and I don’t get the constant squawking about it. IF you want it buy it. I don’t want it, and don’t want to pay for it, and I’m a good GM EV customer, as 3 of 4 EV’s I’ve owned… Read more »

This is great. But it’s barely a dent in the infrastructure. There must be more stations along major highways.

You should be able to drive from Detroit to Sault Ste Marie using CCS. Then people in Michigan could use EVs for weekend trips.

It’s still ridiculous to me GM went for the extra $750 soak and made DCFC not standard on Premier versions of the Bolt. There’s no way this lasts through MY2018.

Anyone see any commercials for the Bolt?

No, and IMO you won’t see any anytime soon.
Though once they produce one with the awards it has already acquired both Chevy and the Bolt. It would be a pity, though a probability, that they goof that up.

I would shift gears now, so to speak, if I were GM. Ok we get it you made some good cars recently, you are turning things around. But the various ooh’s and ah’s when people are surprised with a favorable reaction by a GM product has been done to death.
So lets move on. Like some guy comes in with all the answers who guesses GM on everything, spoiling the surprise.

The video says they don’t start airing until first week in December.

At the risk of appearing to be an apologist for GM, which I’m not, GM did spend money to advertise the Volt in its early years, even including the most expensive type of ad of all: A Superbowl TV ad. Despite all that, Volt sales were disappointing.

So perhaps GM is merely being prudent in not spending money on advertising the Bolt right away. I think it’s pretty clear that GM has made decisions to ensure they won’t lose money on the car, as they did at least in early years of the Volt.

We can hope that Bolt sales will be strong, and if so, we can also hope this will motivate GM to advertise it. And my not-so-secret wish is that the Bolt will sell out so fast that GM won’t have any need to advertise it this year! But as long as I’m wishing and hoping, I hope GM will significantly ramp up production in following years and use paid advertising to promote sales.

The reality is, plug-ins are only 1% of the market. I don’t commercials for any of them.

You say Volt sales are a disappointment, but it’s the #1 seller in the US. That means all other plug-ins are an even bigger disappointment.

Kdawg, you seem to be going out of your way to find disagreement even when I’m just discussing facts, not speculation or opinion.

I’m sure you know that in the first few years of production, GM idled the Volt production line for a few extra weeks during summer, because Volts were not selling as fast as GM had anticipated.

If you want to say that’s not “disappointing”, then please do pick any descriptive term you like. But there’s no question that Volt sales have been less than GM had planned for, and as far as North American sales go, they have been even lower since 2013. Looks like with the Volt 2.0, sales have picked back up this year, but only to approximately 2012-13 levels.

I hope the Bolt sells significantly better than the Volt.

Here’s the bottom line on the little BOLTEV:

For almost the same money you can buy a used S!

Would you like to have a really nice car that does everything….including free supercharging?

Spring for the extra 5 grand (45 vs 50) and buy a used Model S.

I have ZERO interest in a Model S; too big and very dated design now.

This. Plus no service support.

$5k difference? Try $20k.

If I believe you that a Model S used is $50k, it costs the consumer $50k

New Bolt is $37.4k, and with $7.5k tax credit, it costs the consumer $29.9k.

So $20k difference.

“The More You Know…”

Please Clarkson,

Of course what I said is a stretch.

but the truth of the matter is no one looks at the after subsidy price. Besides the subsidy will be gone soon anyway.

I bot mine from a private party and brought it in state AZ so no tax. AZ has an essentially zero license tax. so the 50K price was bottom line.

Now go to your GM dealer and buy a BoltEV and it will be a min of 40K+ tax and license. That’s how I got 45 for the BoltEV.

there’s no contest. Want a mickey mouse compact or a nice car?

More room inside a Bolt EV. Higher seating position and easier entry/exit. Real buttons for HVAC/radio. Apple Carplay.

But you’re comparing apples to oranges. The comparison I made is the most valid price comparison.

If you want to get a private sale Model S and avoid tax in AZ, someone could just as easily do that with a slightly used Bolt.

It’s a $20k difference, not $5k. And, I’ll add that, arguably, dollar for dollar, the Bolt will be much better quality than the Model 3, even if the Model 3 is a “sexier” car.

A model S is to short for me to get into. Not sure until I can see a bolt to confirm.

You can buy it, but then the issues are the same as with any expensive/exclusive (when new) brand car when you buy it old from cheapest offer, and some extra.

You have no status symbol when driving old clunker even if it was great when new. You have astronomical maintenance costs, pure reliability (that never was good even when new) and no money to keep it on road fixed when it inevitably breaks out of warranty, like all cars do. So far you can’t even fix bigger issues yourself, Tesla ignores or goes around “right to fix” laws, no service manuals or third party service centers or part suppliers are here. And who knows what insurance premium would be on it couple of years later.

Bottom line, it would be silly to stretch to buy something unpractical you can’t afford. There are plugin hybrids on the market closer to $20k new after tax incentives with good reliability record and 600 mile range with 5 minute refuel.

Your point zzzzzzzzz that future servicing may be an issue is in the back of my mind with all EV’s in general and of course, Tesla in particular. Estimated future maintenance expenses, which were ‘Porsche-Pricey” on my Roadster convinced me that “Now was the time to sell”.

“RIGHT TO FIX” laws are going to be very hard for GM to avoid but Tesla (as mentioned) will be able to skirt them scott-free.

In the past 5 years I’ve only purchased ev’s. Due to the issue you mentioned, I’m hoping GM’s extra emphasis on reliability keeps all the hard stuff working well past warranty expiration.

Kinda crazy to me GM thinks they have a website that helps people who are “ready to order Bolt” but the website doesn’t show the interior colors.

If you’ve ordered a Bolt already, it was only by seeing interior color names printed on a page, no pictures. Bizarre, GM.

The salesman read out the available colors and options to me over the phone when ordering.

Seemingly in ‘honor’ of the upcoming BOLT, Bosch/SPS (the installation group GM has contracted with to do hand-holding and demystification of 220 docking station installations for the uninitiated) has released TWO NEW Docking Stations!

(Really only one new… The other one is the Bosch PowerMax 30 amp unit with a Chevy Bow Tie on it).

The real new one, in honor of the Bolt’a LARGE (errr..for GM that is ) 32 amp level 2 charger, is the BOSCH POWERMAX 2 which is good for 40 amps, and they don’t charge a huge amount of cash for it, AND it includes the attachment plug so you only need a 6-50 outlet for it.

Sounds like we will have to get ours in northern Virginia, or Maryland. I don’t see Chevy dealers, in the rest of Virginia, putting out that kind of money for a car they don’t want to sell anyway.

Not that a Tesla 3, or anything else Tesla, will be any easier to get here.

Make it free to charge and I’ll be cancelling my Tesla Model 3 pre-order!

HAHA… The Cheap comes out expensive. You’ll see.

You would better pray it would not be free.
When you have a bunch of locals (or not locals) going to shopping mall and leaving their cars parked at charging spot forever (Hey, it is free, and I paid for it when buying the car, or if it is not mine charger, I feel entitled to use it as free premium EV parking spot, who cares about these pesky econoboxes who really need to charge) like it happens with Tesla cars in some places in California, you’ll soon notice that long distance travel when you really need to charge becomes a pain.

Rapid charging at Nissan dealers are free, always have been. There is limited charger hogging. After all who wants to spend more time than they have to at a car dealership?

Most of the comments strike me as naïve. Dealers are not going to invest significant time/money/management attention to make sure chargers are accessible/usable, certainly to the general public. It’s not reasonable to expect them to — it’s not their business!

If you want a reliable, decent-quality charging network, it has to be managed by people whose #1 priority is running that network, and who have to be strongly incentivized to do so.

Certainly dealers aren’t going to install any charger they paid for (in part or in full) in an area that they can’t keep an eye on when the dealership is closed (which is more hours than when it’s open, AFAIK for most dealership is closed).

This requirement is reasonable in order be able to easily charge customer cars coming into the dealership, or for test-drives — but it’s no replacement in any way for a charging network, and any actual or prospective Bolt owner should write to GM pointing out they need ot get their act together on this (not necessarily roll out their own network, but develop and announce a policy of how they expect owners to deal with long-distance travel).

“Most of the comments strike me as naive.”

Ha! No surprise to me.

As far as the car itself goes – it is an option – if you want it, buy it!

I suspect most Premier models on dealer lots will be ordered with the CCS option on almost all of them – problem there solved!

As far as the corporation insisting a CCS charger in the service bay FOR THE PURPOSE OF GIVING THE CUSTOMER A FULL TANK OF GAS, to me that is silly since they don’t do that for gasoline customers.

You would think if anyone would have fully equiped service depts it would be Tesla, but I remember one time the Columbus OHIO Service Center (my closest US one) had my roadster an extra 3 days. I asked why and they said they only had ‘220’ facilities for the “S” – all roadsters had to use the 110 ‘slow’ rate because the 110 ‘fast’ rate blew the breaker. I told them to return the car with no more charge than absolutely necessary for testing since I’d charge it at home since they had to flatbed it to me anyway.

Seems to me that having DC fast charging capability on-site at the dealership would be absolutely necessary for troubleshooting and verifying any repairs associated with that part of the charging system.

I wouldn’t expect that GM is trying to create a charging network out of it…though some dealers might offer it as a customer satisfaction benefit or a way to generate more traffic to the dealership. That would be up to them and not something dictated by GM.

wavelet posted Truth:

“Dealers are not going to invest significant time/money/management attention to make sure chargers are accessible/usable… it’s not their business!”

Thank you!

Given the large amount of wishful thinking expressed in comments here, I guess someone really did need to point out the obvious.

Many of the arguments here just don’t wash.

“We need a charger to be able to troubleshoot it”.

That’s like saying you need a L2 wall box to test the charging system of the VOLT. As I say, one large dealership chain around here only uses the ‘occassional use cord – what BMW calls it’ to test charging systems, and besides – its what their diagnostic system says anyway independent of plugging it in. They just use the 110 volt cord mainly to demonstrate EV mode during test drives.

“CCS is cheap”.

If that is so , why is the SOLE fast charger (CCS and/or Chademo) 145 miles from me at a run down really dinky auto repair shop? (DIANE’S). The juice to this thing is so ricketty it sometimes works and sometimes doesn’t – I suspect its failures are when the airconditioning is running on the Restaurant down the street and the voltage at the very distant transformer bank wildly sags.

You would think that “RICH” Rochester, NY (65 miles away) would have at least ONE fast charger – but there are currently NONE. And of course, Buffalo has Zero.

IIRC, DCFC chargers require a 480 volt service. I’ve designed the HVAC for several GM dealership buildings. They usually have a 208 volt service, which would not be compatible without a special boost transformer. If I were a dealer, I’d push back on the DCFC requirement – it is going to cost a lot and they won’t gain much benefit.

But dealers do need to at least upgrade all their L2 3.3 kW chargers they installed for the Volts to 7.3 kW chargers for the Bolt.

I believe the ChargePoint/BMW 25kW charger runs off 208V. While few want to hear of a charger that charges even slower, it may qualify under this program.

25 kwh is weak, but if they were widely available it could make the difference between the Bolt being useable for medium distance trips or not.

Nobody really wants to sit at a Chevy dealership for an hour and half to get 100 miles range, but it could be way better than other alternatives.

Not all: the 50 kw ccs charger I constantly mention at DIANE’s auto repair in Ithaca NY runs off a 200 amp 208 volt feed. Which just works since its a 160 amp nameplate which is convenient even if dubbed a ‘continuous’ load, which it could be if there were a ‘continuous’ stream of cars waiting to use it since its the ONLY one within 145 miles of me.

There’s no law saying an electrician couldn’t provide his own transformer or (cheaper) autotransformer to provide the requisite 480 volts.

This is what Tom M. told me he had to do at his restaurant for his fast charger.

I’d love to see GM push their Chevy dealers to make the chargers publicly accessible around the clock while charging a reasonable fee for use.

I know they are not in the ‘gas station’ business, but it would help sell Bolts while also providing a revenue stream for the dealership to offset the cost of installation.

Sure plenty of dealers won’t be able to easily do this, but plenty could. Hell of a lot of Chevy dealers on large lots with room for a couple chargers near the road.