Check Out Hawaii’s Electric Car Savings Estimator

APR 17 2015 BY MIKE ANTHONY 27

Hawaii go-ers who are considering purchasing or already own an EV may want to check out this crafty little tool.

Similar to Arizona & Utah’s EV tool(s), this one from Hawaiian Electric allows you to calculate how much you can save just by owning an EV.

Let’s not forget, savings is only one of the positive factors to EV ownership.

There is a disclaimer on the website, we figured it would be a good idea to add that in here as well:

“The EV Bill Savings Estimator (the “Estimator”) provides a comparison of the EV TOU Rates to standard residential rates and illustrates the potential costs and savings associated with charging plug-in electric vehicles based on manufacturer’s specifications. The Estimator is intended for illustrative purposes only, and by providing the Estimator for public use, the Hawaiian Electric Companies make no representations or warranties as to its accuracy or that individuals will in fact achieve the estimated cost savings. Your actual electricity costs will vary based on several individual factors, including, but not limited to, your actual household TOU load profile data. The Estimator assumes the average customer without an electric vehicle consumes approximately 45 percent during the off-peak period, 15 percent during the mid-peak period, and 40 percent during the priority-peak period. These assumptions are based on the 2008 class load study.”

Click here to be directed to the calculator tool, & additional info. (You will need Microsoft Excel for this program.)

Here’s a sample below of a Nissan LEAF being driven 12,000 miles per year on standard (non-TOU) residential rates:

LEAF Sample

LEAF Sample

Source: Maui Now

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27 Comments on "Check Out Hawaii’s Electric Car Savings Estimator"

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Hawaii is a place where they really need to start working on V2G technology. Actually, G2V technology mostly. They have a very high amount of renewable energy such that it is starting to get a little difficult for the grid. So if they have a communication system between the grid and EVs, they could tell vehicles when it is a good time to charge or not. Sucking off excess solar PV electricity could be good for them at times.

I think “V2G” (love the acronyms) doesn’t even rise to the level of a triviality, given the amount of power involved. Even if it did matter — which it does not, and will not for a very long time if ever — the wear and tear on car batteries and other EV system components would make “V2G” an unbelievably expensive way to get virtually no power. Let’s do a thought experiement. There are 1.13 million vehicles in Hawaii, including cars, motorcycle, and trucks. Nationwide, 73% of vehicles are cars, 3% are motorcycles, and the rest are trucks and buses. My trips to Hawaii tell me that there are a lot more motorcycles there and fewer trucks. So let’s say 70% of the state’s vehicles are cars, or 800,000. Today, about 0.6% of new car sales are BEVs, and another 0.6% are hybrids. Let’s be generous and say there are 350,000 EVs on the road in the United States, which would be 0.2% of the total. In Hawaii, that would translate to 1,600 EVs. (I doubt there are nearly that many, but what the hell, these are very small numbers so why not? In fact, just for grins, let’s say Hawaii… Read more »

p.s.: The numbers above are radically tilted in favor of the “V2G” case. For example, the 800,000 “cars” in Hawaii includes light trucks, which are about half of U.S. passenger vehicle sales. There are no BEV pickup trucks sold in the U.S., other than conversion kits traded among backyard mechanics. BEV power will hit the pickup truck market last because of the weight of the vehicles and higher power requirements.

Also, the idea that ALL EVs would be connected to a “V2G” hookup, and that a utility would pull 10 kWh from each one of them, is highly unlikely to put it mildly.

I was disappointed for the following three and a half reasons: 1. Maybe I missed it, but I couldn’t find the formulas behind the results. That might work for some people, especially if the results tell them what they want to hear. But others would want to see the arithmetic. 2. Battery degradation and replacement isn’t in the numbers. I have an EV in Seattle, and the cost of battery replacement equals the cost of the electricity. I know that Hawaii’s rates are higher and more complex. In Seattle, there are no TOU rates, just a two-step residential rate. Given that an EV functions as one more appliance, I apply the higher rate (11.49 cents/kWh) to the cost of my EV’s fuel. This makes my EV’s fuel cost 4 cents a mile, averaged throughout the year. Battery replacement at projected battery cost in 2020, minus avoided maintenance (no oil changes or maintenance of exhaust or tranny) is also 4 cents a mile. 3. The extra cost of the EV relative to an equivalent gas car is not in the numbers. At the low end, i.e., not a Tesla, a typical EV costs about $10,000 more than the equivalent gas car.… Read more »

It is impossible to really do battery replacement costs. No one fully knows how long the batteries will last and no one fully knows how much replacement batteries will cost by the time they are really needed.

And since cars depreciate as they age, by the time the batteries really need replacement, the car is pretty much worthless so why bother replacing the batteries?

Funny about “why replace batteries because the car will be worthless anyway.” It’s a reasonable question. I’ll give what I think is a reasonable answer. In Washington State, where I live, the AVERAGE car on the road is 12 years old. EVs are driven an average of 8,000 miles a year (compared with the average gas car that’s driven 13,000 miles a year). The point: Cars cost more these days, but they last longer. Specific example: I just sold my old 1995 Volvo 850. It had a bit more than 96,000 miles on the odometer. Both the buyer and me agreed that it was hardly even a teenager yet. When I was a kid, my dad would buy used cars with 40,000 or so miles on them, and keep them until they had about 120,000 miles on them. That was then. These days, people keep vehicles longer. Thus, I think battery replacement matters. But even if it EVs are somehow crappier in other ways than ICE cars (I don’t believe that, but say it for purposes of illustration only), the seller is still going to pay for battery degradation in the form of depreciation. Aside from Tesla, which is in… Read more »
Sorry Mike, Jay and the gang. Well, there you go again…CP! “Most people here won’t like that, but I’m one of those cranky “give me the facts” types, and I look at the whole picture.” No, pal, I like ya but for a guy that wants facts you are clueless. “~2. Battery degradation and replacement isn’t in the numbers.~ ~Battery replacement at projected battery cost in 2020~’ WHAT! Projected Traction Battery life by many is 20 yearsof usability. In some states, OEM’s Must warranty the Traction Battery: 10 years / 150,000 miles (Air Resource Board states) Your concern of Traction Battery replacement costs, 5 years from now is absurd. If you have 12 year old son, by the time you might be concerned about a Traction Battery issue, your son will be in Grad School or you might be a Grand Father. Quoted replacement costs for current Traction Batteries, unknown if any have been replaced yet due to collision damage, is $2,659.00 for the Chevy Volt Extended Range Electric Vehicle- 16kWh – 17.1 kWh with core exchange. The replacement cost for the Nissan LEAF 24kWh Traction Battery is $5,900.00 with core swap. Darn near less then a transmission these days.… Read more »
1. Nissan’s battery warranty is for five years or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first. Tesla’s warranty is unlimited mileage but eight years. There is NO 10 year/150,000 mile warranty that I know of, but I’m happy to stand corrected if you have a link. Also, it’s unclear as to whether those warranties require the car companies to swap the battery for a new one, or whether they can replace with a nearly-expired one that will give the owner something that met the degradation standard but that’s all. 2. Volt battery replacement cost is irrelevant here. I am quite high on the Volt, and often advise people to get one if they want a vehicle that’ll be electric in town but can still be used for a genuine road trip. But the Volt is a hybrid. My post concerns BEVs, same as the Hawaii site. 3. Nissan’s battery replacement costs $5,500 PLUS labor for the installation. Thomas Thias, if anyone ought to be familiar with car dealer service bay labor charges, you should be. In any case, even without the labor, the LEAF’s replacement battery goes for $230/kWh. And that’s a subsidized price that Nissan announced because batteries were crapping out… Read more »

This Kia Soul EV has a 100,000 mile 10 year battery warranty.

I’ve seen 7 years/150,000 km (90,000 miles) in Europe, and something in a website quoting 10 years/100,000 miles in Canada and the United States. Click on “7-Year Warranty” at first link. Second link looks like a Canadian brochure (see p. 4 of the PDF). http://tinyurl.com/kiaeurow http://tinyurl.com/oazwwk6 The details of the warranty require Kia not to replace a battery that has degraded more than 30%, but just to stick a reconditioned one in that has 70% or more capacity remaining. Kinda reminds me of the pro-rated tire warranties. In any case, 100K miles sounds right. Of course in 10 years it’s unlikely most Soul EVs will be driven 100K miles, given that it’s a short-range vehicle not usable for road trips. EVs get an average of 8,000 miles a year of use. We really don’t yet know how these batteries will perform. When I looked at the issue, I did a bunch of research and came up with an expected lifetime until 30% degradation of 2,000 charging cycles. In my EV that would be about 120,000 miles, but I don’t know if the mere passage of time has any effect. I make sure not to “top it off,” i.e., I recharge,… Read more »

6. The 4-cent/mile battery replacement cost that I gave assumes a 100,000-mile battery life. Given what we’ve been seeing so far with the LEAF, that’s generous. If, for example, a LEAF’s battery lasted for 75,000 miles, the replacement cost at $200/kWh, net of avoided oil changes, etc., would be 5.4 cents a mile, or 35% higher than my estimate.

Nissan Leaf OLDER batteries is… worst case scenario right now.

We have reall world data from Tesla that indicate 95% capacity of battery possible even AFTER 100 000 miles driven.

And we have this new battery of Nissan, that have lower degradation over time/miles.

Those show that OLD nissan leaf battery is example of … defunct design of battery pack & management.

Your argument is as walid for whole EV as nissan OLD batteries powered leafs are representatives of EVs out there.

Nissan had good sales numbers but others are joining, and new batteies are already on the market.

Picture is changing.

Things like 200$ per kW/h wont change as fast though! Battery swaps should be rarer but still costly.

We don’t know how long the LEAF batteries will last because they are so new. A big factor, I think, is that most LEAFs are leased because of the heavy lease subsidy from Nissan. This transfers the battery degradation risk from the customer to the car company, removing the incentive to treat the battery right.

I agree about Tesla battery life, as long as the owner doesn’t constantly top it up. Those batteries ought to last a whole lot longer than 100K miles. I thought I made it clear that I put Tesla in a separate category for the battery degradation discussion, but maybe I wasn’t clear enough.

Gawd, you just won’t quit with it, will you. LOL You State as Fact: “#1 ~Nissan’s battery warranty is for five years or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first. ” WHAT! Nissan LEAF- ZEV – California- “Have a 10 yr/150K warranty on the zero emission energy storage system-” Link Goes To California Environmental Protection Agency Air Resources Board – ZEV- http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm -Lithium Battery Coverage: 8 Years/ 100,000 Miles – Source/ Nissan LEAF Warranty Manual. Link Goes To Nissan LEAF Warrany Manual, pdf, (See Page 5)- http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/images/f/fe/2012-leaf-warranty-booklet.pdf — “#3~ And that’s a subsidized price that Nissan announced because batteries were crapping out a lot sooner than expected. ” WHAT! “[…]One of the “boogeymen” that anti-EV idiots like to mention is the high cost of replacing a broken battery. It’s true, EV batteries aren’t cheap; a replacement pack for the Nissan LEAF costs $5,500 plus the old battery. But do LEAF batteries fail frequently? New data shows that out of 35,000 Nissan LEAF sales in Europe, just 0.01%, or 3 units total, have failed.[…]” Links Goes To Gas 2.0/HYLTON- http://gas2.org/2015/03/25/99-99-nissan-leaf-batteries-still-operation/ – http://www.hylton.co.uk/nissan/News/nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cyni/6168/Nissan/NewsDetail.aspx#.VTIFUpV_m03 “#4~The Chevy Volt hybrid stickers for $35,170 vs. the Chevy Cruze (same “Delta” platform, per Wikipedia) sticker at $20,920, per True… Read more »

The LEAF battery is warranted against defects in workmanship and materials for 8 years/100K miles, but that’s not what we’re talking about. The battery degradation warranty is for 5 years/60,000 miles, whichever comes first. “Battery replacement,” as we’ve been discussing here, is a matter of degradation.

http://tinyurl.com/leafdegwarr

The CA Air Resources Board doesn’t make it clear whether 10 yrs/150K miles is a materials and workmanship warranty, or a battery degradation warranty. I’d be very surprised if it’s a degradation warranty, but if you can provide a link to a report of someone using the CA Air Resources Board requirement to enforce a degradation claim, I’m always open to facts.

http://tinyurl.com/4cvds

Finally, the Volt hybrid and the Cruze ICE are built on the same GM Delta II compact car platform. Car magazines compare them head to head, and when they do, they note that the cars are built on the same platform but with different propulsion systems. Thus, they are directly comparable cars.

http://tinyurl.com/GMDelta

http://tinyurl.com/vltcrz

On the LEAF warranty question, page 9 of the warranty manual makes clear that the workmanship/materials warranty on the battery does NOT cover degradation. I’ve read that Nissan is interpreting the 5-year/60,000-mile “EV System” warranty to cover degradation to that point.

My gut feel about all this is that a Nissan LEAF owner who re-charges at 20-25% of capacity, and who doesn’t leave the vehicle outside in extreme temps, will get 100,000 miles before having to replace the battery. That’s how I’ve based battery replacement numbers: $200/kWh over a 100,000 mile life. Do the arithmetic, and it’s 4.8 cents per mile. Deduct a penny a mile for lack of maintenance of the tranny and exhaust system, and lack of oil changes, and you get to 3.8 cents a mile for battery replacement, which I rounded to the nearest penny.

I own an EV and like it. I wish EVs well. I’d like to see them become mainstream cars. I think there are a bunch of hurdles before it can happen. I see no reason whatsoever to avoid, evade, or deny the various realities that EVs face if they are to become the cars that ordinary consumers choose.

One more thing. “Failure rate” is pretty much irrelevant in a discussion about battery degradation. The rule of thumb is that a battery needs replacement when it’s lost 30% of capacity. The EV makers are coy when it comes to the wording, but it looks like Nissan’s “EV systems” warranty is based 30% standard, and that Tesla’s warranty is too. That said, I couldn’t find specific language in either warranty that actually set a number — only a widespread assumption among online comments.

“Failure” means the battery doesn’t work, period. It is different than gradual degradation. Therefore, the links in Thomas J. Thias’s post to articles declaring that the LEAF’s batteries have an 0.3% “failure” rate are irrelevant in this discussion of battery replacement costs.

I forgot to include a link to the cost of a Nissan Versa tranny replacement. Here it is.

http://tinyurl.com/vertranny

Last time I looked, Hawaii’s cost for electricity was a notable outlier, about twice the national average, much higher than -any- other state.

Looks like Hawaiians would do well to install solar power, where possible. Otherwise, the per-mile savings for driving an EV are going to be significantly less than they are on the mainland.

As much as I look, I’ve never seen an independent accounting of the cosr of solar panels and their output over a 1-year period.

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz

Ask around.

Surly You know somebody with solar panels on their roof. 😉

I live in Seattle. Solar panels are very uncommon here, probably because they don’t make much sense in a place this far north and this cloudy.

The problem with your flawed anaylsis CP is you have predicated it on the Nissan Leaf which we all know is flawed engineering with no BMS.

Bottom line is that 10 years in the future when packs start needing replacement there will be better batteries at much lower prices and past 10 years out this trend will only significantly accelerate.

I predict that most EVs on the roads today will stay in service for 20-30 years and will vastly outlive their dinosaur ICE brethren in this regard. Evs are far more upgradeable then ICE vehicles in this respect.

Forgot to mention that EVs are the only vehicle that’s practical for anyone can make their own “fuel” for.

This fact alone assures that the synergy of EVs and solar will dominate in the near future.

Anyone can make their own fuel? Sure, if they have an unobstructed southern vista. I still don’t have a handle on the fully loaded cost/kWh of solar power, which of course will vary by latitude and cloud cover. One of these days I’ll be researching that in detail, but I haven’t yet. I can say this much, though: In various online forums, I have yet to find anyone who’s been willing to walk through their numbers, including installation, all equipment, and panels, and production data. I’m very receptive to actual data concerning the panels in use, and the costs, the more complete the better.

As for the LEAF, it’s false that I’ve “predicated everything” on it. I mention this much because the LEAF is by far the most popular mid-priced EV on the road.

p.s.: If there was a way to make an enforceable bet on longevity, I’d be willing to bet that the LEAF’s batteries will crap out long before the gas tank on an ICEV needs to be replaced — at a small fraction of the cost.