Cheap Gas No Threat To Tesla

JUN 11 2017 BY TESLAMONDO 87

AS PREDICTED, CHEAP GAS MEANS SQUAT

Remember this gloomy two-year period, when we had to endure constant fretting about cheap gas killing demand for Tesla’s products? Everyone feared Tesla would suffer horribly in a cheap gas environment.

TeslaMondo pounded the table and decreed that Tesla would flourish despite cheap gas because it sells excitement first, safety second, green cred third, and return-on-investment formula last.

Well, here’s how gas prices have moved in the past three years. They’ve stalled out just above their nadir, a “nightmare” scenario for sure.

Now let’s compare this to Tesla sales volume during the same period. If you don’t see a chart, that’s because we don’t need one. Just imagine a chart that looks nothing like the gas chart because the line goes, like, way up and to the right. Done!

What do these two charts tell us? They tell us that stock analysts, journalists and academics are cluless. They peek over each other’s shoulders and repeat the same wrong answers, like a bunch of flunkies. You probably didn’t take advice from flunkies when you were in school. Why start now?

*Editor’s Note: This and other Tesla-related posts appear on TeslaMondo. Check it out here.

*Editor’s Note 2:  Although not included (but referenced) in the TeslaMondo original story, we figured we’d add a graph of Tesla sales by quarter (below) through the end of 2016

Tesla Car Sales In U.S. – December 2016

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87 Comments on "Cheap Gas No Threat To Tesla"

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silversod

Cheap Gas! I should be so lucky. Being from the UK the last time I experienced cheap gas was prior to 1973.

SJC

What cheap gas? With oil at $50 per barrel gasoline in Southern California is $3.00. When it was $100 oil it was $3.50 I would say refiners are making a ton.

SparkEV

Oil prices change very rapidly, matter of days. When they go up, gasoline prices shoot up just as quickly (overnight). But when oil prices go down (overnight), it takes weeks or months for gasoline prices to go down.

As for CA prices, I suspect it’s anticipation for the new tax. They hike the price way before the tax kicks in (and more profit for them), and when the tax actually take effect, prices won’t change much initially.

Jose

Where can you buy gas for 3 dollars a gallon in socal? Its more like 4 dollars especially for premium gas that the volt requires.

Doggydogworld

2.55 in San Bernadino.
2.69 in Van Nuys.
etc.
Regular unleade prices from GasBuddy.

Alan

$7 here in the UK ;o((

Davek

At least your gallons are bigger?

ffbj

..as in imperial gallons (1.2 u.s), but gas is dispensed in liters in the U.K.
I think he’s given a gallon equivalent price.

Here it’s $2.25 and falling.
I think it could fall much further,
oil down below $35 a barrel.

Mark.ca

BS, all over the place in SoCal the price of premium is at $3/gal. I have to go to the most expensive neighborhoods to find $3.5
Btw, for all the Europians here, we call premium the 93 octane gas …which is something some EU countries don’t sell even as base. I noticed it’s mostly the 95 and 100 that are sold.

Shaun

That’s a common misconception. Europe actually uses a different octane measurement called RON. In America we use an average of the RON and MON numbers called AKI.

Mark.ca

Had no idea. Will look into it, thanks!

SJC

The $3.50 was at $100 per barrel oil. You should improve your reading comprehension skills, quit blaming your misunderstandings on so called BS.

Mark.ca

Hold your panties….the reply was obviously in response to Jose.

energymatters

And let’s not forget that Saudi’s now own the Pt Arthur refinery 100% and Russia is (about) to won the Citgo refineries. Shifting their profit sources from the extraction to the refinement.

peter904

California is different from other states/markets. The AQMD (air quality management district) mandates the refiners blend special blends (summer and winter)that reduces emissions. These gasoline formulas are not used by neighboring states.

Warren

Those willing to pay $40K for a car are not thinking about gas prices. If people worried about saving money on gas they would already be driving a Prius. Total hybrid sales peaked at just over 3%. Auto purchases are emotion driven. Auto dealers long ago figured out they can overcome people’s concerns about gas mileage, by offering cash on the hood…paid back over years, at high interest rates.

FISHEV

“Those willing to pay $40K for a car are not thinking about gas prices.”

Exactly much less people currently paying $80-$100K for S’s and X’s and ever for people buying 3’s for $50-60K.

philip d

What about someone buying a $35,000 – $7500 = $27,500 car like the Model 3?

Its not an exclusive reason to buy one but saving money on gas is one of the benefits along with better driving dynamics/performance and being able to always have my car fueled up every morning.

All those benefits add up for a compelling reason to buy a Model 3 over a Prius that might be only a few thousand cheaper but is also a much less fun car to own and drive.

Or another way to look at it is you are buying a car equivalent in performance to a 3-series (better actually) for less money and that uses a cheaper fuel.

FISHEV

Headline on InsideEV “Tesla says average price of Model 3 will be $50,000.” Tesla is established as a luxury brand no different than Lexus, Acura, Mercedes and BMW in the US.

The Model 3 with the “popular options” package that Tesla has said will be sold as “standard” on the first batch of Model 3’s ($10K 70kWh battery, $8K Auto/Auton, non-black paint $1K, Glass roof $1K) makes it $52,600 “base”. With AWD available b the time non-employees can order, early 2018, it’s a $57,600 low end of the Tesla luxury brand.

And gasoline price is kind of a fringe issue as most people buying hybrids, PHEV and EV’s are doing it as way to lower emissions not save on gasoline. You will see a small percentage increase on decrease with gasoline prices but it is a fractional percentage.

Jay Cole

Without speaking to your point at all, just as a note, we’ve never heard that number from Tesla, or had a story entitled: “Tesla says average price of Model 3 will be $50,000”

We recently had this story:

Teslanomics Predicts Average Tesla Model 3 Purchase Price of $50,000
http://insideevs.com/teslanomics-predicts-average-tesla-model-3-price-50000/

…perhaps you are thinking of this one? Or you wanted to say “Future headline on InsideEVs…”? We just don’t want anyone to get confused with what we have (or have not) published.

FISHEV

I’m thinking of Musk saying originally that average sale of Model 3 would be $42,000 and that recent changes, Auto/Auton being standard, Tesla making 70 kWh batteries vs. the 55 kWh batter of the “$42,000” base, easily push Musk’s $42K to $57K.

Jay Cole

All good…figured you were projecting out. We just didn’t want anyone hunting for/thinking InsideEVs had put out a piece confirming that Tesla said the average price was going to be 50k.

Mark.ca

“Headline on InsideEV “Tesla says average price of Model 3 will be $50,000.””

No, you are not thinking anything…you are making up stuff…and you got called on it.
The idea is that if you want a cheap ev you can have a base M3 at around 30k …for some reason you struggle understanding this.

FISHEV
“…if you want a cheap ev you can have a base M3 at around 30k.” Base Model 3 is prices at $36,200 delivered so you are 20% off out of the gate. Must has stated $42K is going to average and that was at the announcement. Musk is no doubt thinking that people will get Autopilot at $5K in order to get full safeties such as dynamic cruise. Since then we’ve heard that that Tesla is building 70 kWh batteries not the 55 kWh of the base model, that’s going to $10K that likely cannot be avoided. So yes, $52K base. I would guess employees, the first 25,000-35,000 cars in 2017 are going to be offered a “base” that is not black ($1K), has glass roof “option” ($1K), has 70 kWh battery ($10K) and Auto/Auton activated ($8K) because Tesla is using them as beta testers before the general public can buy in 2018 when AWD ($5K) is available. Haven’t seen a stat but looks like 90% of Tesla’s sold are AWD? Plus the likely $1K home charger install and the EV range issues, Tesla is selling to people with solid disposable income to spend on cutting their GHG emissions. So… Read more »
Mark.ca

I will take mine with no options at $30k after tax and fed credit and Cali rebate. DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT?
Seriously, dude, why are you so fixated on the med price? If you want cheap you can have cheap…simple as that!

FISHEV

‘I will take mine with no options at $30k after tax and fed credit and Cali rebate. DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT?’

No but I think you will have a problem getting Tesla to sell you a Model 3 that is not “well equipped” with “popular options” at $50-$60K. If Tesla can sell $50-$60K Model 3’s, why would build a $36,200 Model 3?

Maybe if demand ever slackens for the loaded Model 3’s or if Tesla has to sell one or two of them to avoid some kind of regulatory issue, you might get lucky.

Mark.ca

The guy just said last week that the base M3 will hit the market first, i think it was mentioned here too…if not look at his tweets. If you want no options why do you think he will not sell it to you? It makes no sense what you are saying. Even if he sells it at a loss he will sell it.

FISHEV

“The guy just said last week that the base M3 will hit the market first”

Not exactly. Remember Musk’s base was $42,000 when her first announced, since then we’ve heard Tesla is only building 70 kWh batteries in mass, that’s a $10K adder, plus glass roof is an “option” but no metal roofs are made, that’s a $1K adder.

That makes the “base” $53K, add some paint, $54K.

What you call base and what Tesla builds and sells as base are not necessarily the same thing and Musk has noted that they are building with “popular options”.

Car mfgs always have a low prices get them in the door model but then they only have the “popular option” models for customers to buy. Tesla is now different and has the same motivation, increasing profits.

Kirk

I think you are somewhat correct. I believe that Tesla come out of the gate with a premium package. Next will follow the performance package and finally will follow the base package. My guess is that you will be able to any of the three, but that if you order a base package you will have a later delivery date.

I agree with you that the Tesla model 3 will be so wildly successful that they were will be able to sell a ton of premium and performance packages.

Priusmaniac

You can have all the stuff you want on your Model 3 but the base price is 35000$ not 50000$. In more the 75 KWh battery is only 15 KWh more energetic than the 60 KWh supposed base one, or 20 KWh if the base one is 55 KWh. Even in that scenario 10000 $ extra would mean a KWh price at 500 $ which is way off chart since pack cost is rumored at about 190$ and cells level is around 120$. Since a more energetic pack simply has more cells it is the cells level price of 120$ that counts so 120 x 20 = 2400 $. That is four times less than 10000$ and even less if the base battery is 60 KWh.

FISHEV

“Even in that scenario 10000 $ extra would mean a KWh price at 500 $ which is way off chart.”

$13,000 is the price differential going up 15 kWh from S75D to S100D. So it’s on the only chart we have, the current Tesla price list. Musk did say Model 3 options would be cheaper but options are also profit centers so $10,000 for the upgrade from 55kWh to 70kWh would be inline with Tesla current pricing and Musks statement of lower priced options.

Pushmi-Pullyu
“No, you are not thinking anything…you are making up stuff…and you got called on it.” Absolutely. FISHEV is the latest in a string of serial anti-Tesla FUDsters to become a regular in InsideEVs comments, and he’s rapidly establishing a reputation for someone who cannot ever be trusted to post anything that’s actually true. Elon Musk estimated the average selling price of the Model 3 at $42,000. He obviously knew when he said that, that Tesla would be offering two battery pack sizes. We have seen nothing, absolutely nothing, to give any rational reason that average selling price will be higher than $42,000. And given how close we are to actual start of production, it seems rather unlikely we will. Tesla knows that the market segment it’s entering with the MSRP $35,000 Tesla Model S is far more sensitive to a few thousand dollars’ difference in price than it’s previous models. Tesla will adjust its business strategy accordingly. Logic and common sense suggest that Tesla will respond to any cost overruns by eliminating planned (but not revealed) features from the Model 3, not by raising the price. No part of what FISHEV says here should be confused with anything other than… Read more »
FISHEV

“FISHEV is the latest in a string of serial anti-Tesla FUDsters”

Whatever that is. Just gave up my Model 3 deposit because I want AWD and that is going to be 2018 and with Model Y supposed to come out in 2019, may as well wait for that vs. spending $60K on a Model 3 that going to be compromise for my needs.

Figure by 2020 there should be a 300 mile AWD hatchback from Tesla (the Model Y) and some 100 mile PHEV AWD hatchbacks from other mfgs to choose from.

Love Tesla from solar roof to utility power stations to EV’s but comments that gas prices don’t affect Tesla are a bit disingenuous, they never did. No problem putting clothes back on the emperor.

Vexar

Sounds like a good strategy for your personal tastes. Be warned, though, the Model Y will outsell the Model III by a wide margin. You could do with a used Model S if you are constrained with an immediate purchase time frame. If not, save up, be ready, and when the time comes, enjoy!

peter904

Fishev. The advantage a base Tesla Model 3 (TM3) ($35K) has over a similar MSRP BMW 320i or Audi A4 is the ability to add non hardware restricted upgrades through OTA software. If you later decide to add AP to your base TM3 you can do it, not so with Audi, BMW, etc. Also, Tesla has a history of developing software that improves their vehicles. My 4 ½ year old Model S is better today than the day it was delivered.

From my readings, Musk said the base TM3 will have an MSRP of $35K (+ delivery and fees, less any incentives/rebates) but he feels the selling price will “average” $42K. If you average $35K and $50K you get $42.5K

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Those willing to pay $40K for a car are not thinking about gas prices.”

And for those paying an average price of $95,000 for a car — like the Model S — it means even less. Those who are actually impacted by the price of gas for their daily driving are driving a much lower cost car. In fact, the working poor and struggling middle class seldom if ever buy cars new; they buy only used cars.

It’s true that in the “premium” market segment where Tesla has been selling, buyers are almost entirely indifferent to the price of gas. But as Tesla moves more and more down market, the price of gas is going to affect sales more and more.

In other words, what TeslaMondo says here applies narrowly to Tesla’s former and current market, but does not apply in general to sales of plug-in EVs vs. gasmobiles.

In large part, what TeslaMondo wrote here is just a straw man argument.

EVA-01

I rarely witness people buy used in my neck of the woods. Everyone I see these days (regardless of what class they are in) lease their vehicles. I think it’s a pretending to be rich thing or just taking the easy way out. These are the kinds of people that will always have a monthly payment of some kind for the rest of their lives. If you want a good laugh, ask them who’s name is on the title when you hear them say the words “my car” and witness their reaction.

Mark.ca

Sure, that happens alot too but leasing can make financial sense in certain situations especially in case of evs. I effectively pay $40/month for my eGolf lease…can you match that with an ICE lease or purchase? I held cars 10+ years in the past and can tell you that comes at a price too, you may save on montly payments but you pay any repairs out of pocket and that’s a killer for german cars in US.

EVA-01

I don’t have a problem with leasing per say, I have a problem with that lease in this current generation. They go out bragging that their lease is their car when it’s not. You don’t have the privilege to say it’s your car unless the name is on your title. Society has degraded where signing on a piece of paper and renting for 3 years somehow magically makes the car yours.

It’s not about which one makes financial sense to me, it’s about have the pride to say I own something.

Mark.ca

Valid point, however, there is no pride in owning cars (unless valuable classics) as they are the most depreciating asset you can own. That’s what I love the most about a good lease, you don’t take the depreciation loss. This is more obvious on evs due to the rapid pace at which the tech progresses.

Brandon

Here the thing tho: currently near me a LEAF can be leased for $229 per month for 36 months with $1,999 due at signing.
That’s 3 years and $10,244 out of pocket, which I would argue is very close to the amount that the LEAF depreciates over that same time.

Mark.ca

That is a pretty bad deal compared to what i have seen arond here. But don’t forget, for evs there may be a state rebate and even a utility company rebate. You need to factor these in too. Check these 2 websites for deals and info…
http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/
https://leasehackr.com/

Brandon

Interesting. I wonder how Nissan in CA can offer such good deal compared here in PA. What amount of lease payment are we talking about for in CA?

Brandon

Looks like ~$180-$220 is normal in CA.

Mark.ca

The payment for my SE eGolf 2016 after all rebates is $116/month. If i had much lower income it could have been $75. Now all this is before you factor in any gas savings. These are the real rates not what you see posted by dealers. And this is an average deal. It’s perplexing that not all the households in Cali ,especially the ones living in detached houses, don’t have a low range ev as their second car. People are simply leaving money on the table.

kubel

If I took your advice and bought instead of leased my 2012 LEAF, I would have lost about $7000 due to unexpected depreciation. Leasing isn’t just something that people with terrible spending habits do. It’s also a smart way to enjoy a new car with less risk.

The smart people are the ones that buy used.

Kirk

Smart people lease. Smart people buy new. Smart people buy used. The key is to determine what works best for your particular situation.

Leasing is trickier to figure out than buying. You have to make several assumptions, and you have to understand exactly what goes into a lease in order to intelligently compare it to the option of paying cash or financing.

Robert Weekley
However, there is more to the Gas Price issue than the USA Pump Prices! Our recent Canadian’Low Gas Prices’ were at $1.049 per Litre. With 3.78 Litres in a US Gallon (just read that label on a jug of milk, if you are not sure!), that comes to $3.96522 or $3.97 per US Gallon, in Canadian $. In Exchange for US $, that comes to about $2.973915, or $2.97 per Gallon, US, at about 75 cents on the Dollar Exchange. That is ‘Regular’ prices, of course. However, the experience of any average car is: put your foot down on the go pedal, listen to a bunch of noise, then start to go fast! In ANY Electric, you push the pedal, you GO, now! As to a Tesla, you GO, NOW, FAST! THAT, could be the difference that is a big part: Responsive Driving Dynamics! The last time I had anything close to that, in responsive throttle action, it was in 1984, with a 1983 Mazda RX7 GSL-SE, with an Aftermarket Arkay Turbochargee, taking it from a stock 100 Hp, to 205 Hp, and th ability to hit readline in all 5 Gears! Going from 50 Mph, to 100 Mph, while… Read more »
SparkEV

“Those willing to pay $40K for a car are not thinking about gas prices.”

Those willing to pay $36K for a car are certainly thinking about gas. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be wasting 30 minutes of their lives to get free DCFC to save less than a dollar. Based on my observations, many Leaf wait full 30 minutes while getting less than 5 kWh when the car already has way over 90% and tapered. At $0.20/kWh at home, that’s less than a dollar savings that they gladly waste 30 minutes.

FISHEV
Tesla sells a “mission car” which is also a luxury car, in the $80,000-$130,000 range. It is nice that so many people with money are buying EV’s and helping with the mission, cutting green house gases, building sustainable tech. But gas prices are not why they do it nor does it affect their ability to do it. Gas prices are irrelevant to Tesla buyers, to EV buyers in general though some might use cost of gas to justify the purchase at the “low” end, $40,000 Volts, Bolts, i3’s etc. As global warming gets worse, as US goes backward and does less, more people with a civic conscience and disposable income not needed for day care, college loans, housing, health care will do what the can and buy low emissions vehicles no matter what the price of gasoline. So Tesla selling to high income, high ethics demographic has a market that won’t reach saturation for next five years. So Musk is right to point especially regarding Tesla’s, luxury, status brand. The problem is that point is way too low to get 100% conversion to EV/sustainable cars by 2050, which would require 100% EV sales by 2035. In that regard Ghoson of… Read more »
huhu

Top of line Model X P100D with all options included costs more than $170,000, excluding incentives and taxes.

Priusmaniac

Could be a different situation in Europe. Like mentioned above by a UK resident gas price is around 7$ per gallon, that means that on the duration of a car you spend around 25000$ on gas alone. If you by a car at 30000$, it will cost you 55000$ with the gas. Now if you buy an ev at 35000$ and need about 5000$ of electricity on its lifetime, it will cost you 40000$. So you would safe 15000$. Would because the VAT is astronomic on car purchase so you will actually pay much more than 35000$ VAT included, but to be at par with the gas car you can still go as high as 50000$ VAT included. If VAT is 21% which is often the case in Europe, your ev must be pre vat at 41322$ which is close to the 42000$ Elon mentioned. So a Tesla can make sense, in Europe, on economic grounds too.

Pushmi-Pullyu
“It will take big government subsidies for EV purchase and higher gasoline taxes to pay for those subsidies to do the job.” Or it will just take a few more years to achieve the same thing, with no government incentives at all, as per-kWh battery prices continue to fall. Sooner or later, PEVs (Plug-in EVs) will have a lower sticker price than gasmobiles for a comparable car, for the simple fact that electric motors do not have 200-300 moving parts as an ICEngine does. I do agree it’s very unlikely (nearly impossible) that Tesla can do in 2018-2028 what Ford did in 1909-1919, and capture 90% of the automobile market. Ford wasn’t competing with an established automobile industry, it was moving into a new untapped market. Contrariwise, sooner or later, several of the legacy auto makers will wake up to the reality that Tesla is eating their market share, and will move to offer actual competition in a way that no auto maker is now — not even GM with the Bolt EV, which is quite clearly not going to be made in a quantity to challenge Model 3 sales. Some legacy auto makers will not survive the EV revolution,… Read more »
Alaa

Are they dreaming? Do they not read the news? War might erupt in the Gulf because of Qatar. This is music to the ears of Trump because he can sell the Oil of the US and pay the dept of the US. At the same time Tesla gets to crank up the volume and before you know the whole country is running on electric.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“…he can sell the Oil of the US and pay the dept of the US.”

El Trumpo is only a wannabe dictator. He may imagine that he actually owns U.S. oil reserves and can use them to line his own pockets and pay the national debt, but in reality he can’t. Or more precisely, regarding lining his own pockets with publicly owned oil reserves, he can’t do that directly. But no doubt he and his oil-igarchy cronies can figure out a way to do that indirectly (if they aren’t already doing that) via kickbacks etc.

FISHEV

And war in the Middle East with oil shortages and high prices means world economic depression and US economy tanking with everyone else. And with economic depression, oil prices also crash so a lose-lose scenario which is no doubt why Trump would gravitate towards it being a shallow, mindless sort of fellow.

Mark.ca

An economic depression is Tesla’s worst nightmare, not low oil prices!

George Bower

“TeslaMondo pounded the table and decreed that Tesla would flourish”

Way to go Tesla Mongo

Robert Weekley

Mango, Mongo, Mondo!

Some fruit you have developed, there! Which is it?

[“TeslaMondo pounded the table and decreed that Tesla would flourish”

Way to go Tesla Mongo]

Warren

Unrestricted capitalism is the only system for organizing society left standing in the 21st century, whatever political veneer countries apply. Given this situation, there is no way to reach the CO2 levels needed for civilization’s survival. “What can I buy to save the planet?” so completely misses the point that it would be funny, if it were not so tragic.

Kevin Cowgill

I thought we could shop our way out of this.
Look at the bright side:
Civilisation had a good run.

Null

I find it amazing that so many who believe in unrestricted capitalism haven’t read Adam Smith.

Capitalism rapidly devolves into oligarchic capitalism if left to it’s own devices.

No that doesn’t increase freedom, just the opposite.

Warren

“Capitalism rapidly devolves into oligarchic capitalism if left to it’s own devices.”

Yes. We had a brief period, following WWII, of pushback against the capitalist class, primarily out of fear of communism. Recent studies document the huge transfer of wealth, and complete lack of responsiveness of government to voters since then.

FISHEV

“Unrestricted capitalism is the only system for organizing society left standing in the 21st century, whatever political veneer countries apply.”

Except that has been proven wrong and with each economic depression typically caused by a capitalist bubble we have increased economic regulation.

Also consider that to survive WWII US become a controlled economy. So at the core, when it came to survival of the US, capitalism was tossed on the ash heap of history.

And the problem we face now, Tesla’s reason for being is the effects of “uncontrolled capitalism” on the environment, also threatening our survival and again requiring a control economy to survive.

And Tesla’s survival, EVs at all, are a the result of government policy not the least Tesla’s $500M survival loan from the gov’t at a critical moment.

But all of that should be in response to the Insideevs “What government policy is needed for 100% EV’s on the road by 2050”. They we need to do it is the result of “uncontrolled capitalism” and the how we fix it requires government controls.

SparkEV

“economic depression typically caused by a capitalist bubble we have increased economic regulation.”

Before tons of regulations of starting in 1913, there were ups and downs in economy, but nothing like the great depression starting at 1929. If anything, additional regulations made it far more difficult to get over the depression, which previous ups and downs recovered far quicker without regulations.

If regulation make things better, North Korea and Venezuela would be the richest countries on the planet. Some people rather believe fantasy than look at reality.

PJ

No Countries like Sweden are the richest countries. They have the same GDP per Person while working significantly less then us. Sure you can find bad examples like Venezuela. But in the same token I can just say look at Somalia that pure capitalism. It’s a stupid religion to think that the only thing we need is pure capitalism. Capitalism didn’t give us clean air and water, it also didn’t give us the seatbelt and airbag in the car. Gov was needed to push capitalism to do that.

SparkEV

US spends about 1/5th in the military. No other developed country in the world spend remotely as much. Let’s see how well Sweden fare if they do the same; there’d be no money left for things like healthcare.

Somalia is socialism: there’s no security for private wealth, much of it at the risk of being confiscated (highly taxed) by warlords (pseudo government) through threat of violence (prison). Free market capitalism protects individual wealth, not take it by force on a whim like socialist policies do.

Sweden is far more capitalistic than Somalia, Venezuela, North Korea due to protection of individual wealth.

Seat belt and air bags were introduced _before_ government mandate. Even if government didn’t mandate them, the companies using them would do better by touting the safety feature in their cars. Indeed, this is what Volvo was doing, and it would’ve been a matter of time before everyone adopted as such.

SparkEV has 10 airbags, yet the government does not mandate 10. GM wants to make cars safe, because there’s free market competition, not due to regulations.

Mark.ca

It must be Texas and the constant bs he hears about regs being the end of the civilization that Sparky buys into… Big corporations have killed people knowingly in the past and will (still) do it again if unchecked.
Have a read….just for fun.
http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/11-of-historys-most-infamous-automotive-scandals.html/?a=viewall

Pushmi-Pullyu

“If anything, additional regulations made it far more difficult to get over the depression, which previous ups and downs recovered far quicker without regulations.”

More “alternative facts” from our alt-right promoter, Sparky.

Reality check: As Elizabeth Warren has so eloquently pointed out, the USA had financial crises about once every 15 years until the Great Depression, after which strong financial regulations were put in place. This prevented any financial crises for some decades. But over time those regulations were steadily weakened, so we had the S&L crisis of the 1980s-1990s, then the so-called “Great Recession” of 2008.

The GOP is currently engaged in eating away at the Obama era weak successes at putting a few (not nearly enough) of those needed regulations back into place.

Assuming Congress does not come to its senses and correct things — and unfortunately that seems very likely indeed — then we can guarantee with almost mathematical certainty another financial crisis in the USA within the next 15 years. Perhaps then, finally, we’ll get those strong financial regulations put back into place. Sadly, it seems very unlikely we’ll get them restored before that happens.

As I have noted before, humans are not very good at long-term planning. 🙁

Mister G

Each time anyone buys gasoline they are supporting Venezuelan strong man Maduro.

Pushmi-Pullyu

“Unrestricted capitalism is the only system for organizing society…”

Good luck finding any place where unrestricted capitalism actually exists. In organized societies, there are regulations on the market. In fact, I’ve recently seen someone assert that it’s only black markets which are truly “free markets”, but even that’s an exaggeration because black markets can’t freely advertise or openly solicit their products or services.

In unorganized societies — for example, the areas of Somalia ruled by warlords — buying and selling is at the whim of the local warlord. For example, the warlords all want cell phone service, so one or more cell phone providers will be provided protection by every individual warlord; protection for the cell phone company’s workers to work unmolested in the area that warlord rules. In other cases, sellers may have to pay the warlord or his thugs protection money to stay in business.

If you disagree, then please provide at least one real-world example of unrestricted capitalism.

Warren

You are right. Totally unrestricted capitalism, quickly devolves into competing warlords. Government’s function, in the 21st century, seems limited to preventing them from killing each other. Just as replacing sharp knives with modern tableware, in the French royal court, helped the move from thugs to oligarchs.

JR

This has been the case for a long time in DK
In DK filling up my Tesla (200 Wh KM)equals a gasoline or diesel car getting 18-20 km Pr litre. not at all unrealistic today!
Here in DK we tax electricity dobbel the % of what we tax gasoline, one KW is about 0.41 US dollars one litre of diesel 1,44 US dollars
off course I hope they will change this in the future so green energy and oil will have the same level of competition, electricity will win it is simply cheaper to produce!

FISHEV

Idea should be to tax energy that creates green house gases and for that tax to be in proportion to the GHG created and for sustainable energy (solar, wind, thermal) to be subsidized to push conversion to clean, sustainable energy.

JR

In my book The game is over for oil, what we are witnessing is just the last convulsions, the cheapens way to produce electricity is wind on land, and nobody can compete with a fusion generator called the sun

SparkEV

More taxes? They’ll tell you that it’s for green energy when in reality they’ll use that to make more bombs and invade other countries. Haven’t you been lied to enough already? If you think things will be better with new taxes, you are seriously deluded.

FISHEV

“They’ll tell you that it’s for green energy when in reality they’ll use that to make more bombs and invade other countries.”

That’s only 70% of every income tax dollar. The other 30% do some good stuff like $500M loan to Tesla, the $15B for the EV tax credit, NOAA, NASA, NSF, UN ICCC dues to research global warming.

And state taxes to build out EV infrastructure and more EV tax breaks and clean energy programs in the states. Taxes are price of civilization and ultimate in civilization in our time is mitigating global warming by reducing CHG’s. It’s how history will judge us.

SparkEV

“That’s only 70% of every income tax dollar.”

You’re not bothered that 70% of your tax money goes to kill people in other countries? I am.

That 70%/30% is only for now. In case you didn’t know, Prez Dump decided to reduce EPA funding and increase offense funding (let’s face it; it’s offense, not defense). If gov’t wants do to stuff, they can take it out of existing funding (eg. war department). I have absolutely no desire to have even more of my money going to kill people.

State tax vs fed tax is just semantics. State gets much of their funding from fed, and the demarcation is largely meaningless. For example, if the state tax is so high that it is completely self sufficient, they’d take no fed money. That “untaken” fed money will go toward more bombs.

Pushmi-Pullyu

What, those on the alt-right read a book? Why would they want to do that? They get all their alternative “facts” from Breitbart, The Drudge Report, and Fox News.

They must think I’m a mushroom; they keep me in the dark and feed me s**t.

orinoco

I would turn it the other way around:
Oil and ICE cars producers worst nightmare … successful Tesla.
Who said: “If the BEV means that ICE car producers are going to eat vegetables, then it means that oil producers are going to eat razor blades”? Cheap gas will be the last resort for the ICE car and oil industry, but it won’t save them. Unfortunately until they fail it maybe too late to save the climate of this planet either.

Robert Weekley
While not Every Commuter lives in a Detached House with a Garage, and Not Every Workplace has private Employee Parking (The Two best places to have primary charging for EV’s), once those that cover this side well with full EV charging ability, the numbers of EV’s on the road will be quite visible! Also, when no new EV has under 200+ Miles of Range per charge, and the availability gets there, the rate of pure BEV growth will grow even faster! When PHEV SUV’s all come with 50-60 Mile EV Ranges, they too, will grow in % sales much faster! Basically, when any PHEV Vehicle can cover 95% of anyone’s commute on Electricity, and can easily be charged up at home or at work, as well as fast charged easily enough around town, holdouts for just ICE, will be dropping fast! When the busiest Tesla Superchargers of today have been supplemented with more stalls per site, and more sites per region, even they will find even more growth in EV sales! However, I thing Air Conditioners might also have a big job to do, when you think that they have been with developed countries (North America, Europe, Japan, Australia, etc.)… Read more »
needa

ROFLMMFAO. Typical.
“Look at these charts… it proves my point. Just don’t think any further than these charts or you will see that I have no clue.”

Ford Prefect

Where is this cheap gas?

Prices are over $3 for 87 unless you belong to membership store, pay cash, or use your supermarket club points.

I can’t wait to dump the pump and get back to an EV!

James

Cheap gas just means that ppl who would. It a Ford F-150 will now buy one with a bigger, more obnoxious motor.

Bill Howland

Agreed that Tesla sales will be unaffected by current gasoline prices.

But economy cars (BOLT, Leaf, etc) have been in the past, and for these vehicles – I don’t think that gas prices THREATEN them, I just believe that SHOULD gas prices skyrocket – then sales of THOSE vehicles will also.

The situation seems to be around where I live, few are interested in a hybrid, phev, or bev, but when gas prices go up (and seeing as electricity prices in my area are fairly reasonable) then EVERYONE seemingly wants a car that uses less gas, namely the 3 types of cars mentioned.

jim stack

It’s going up in price fast. It only looked cheap because of Fracking and Subsidies not to mention no Carbon fee. Now all 3 are coming into place. The real price is $10-15 a gallon so soon it will be over for Oil.
The CO2 in the atmosphere and ice cap melting may do us in before you can say REAL OIL PRICES.

Joe

I think a T3 is a good value, even at $41k. I own an ’09 Camry. I drive a lot, (253k miles total ~ 33,730/yr). It gets 30 mpg. I’m planning on keeping it until 2020. Toyota makes good cars, but at 119mpge the 3 would save me a lot, nearly $2400/yr. by my estimate my Camry costs at least $3080/yr to keep it going, vs $600/yr for the 3. This is gas+oil/electricity costs alone.

Actually in ’20 when it’s time for something new, I think I’ll look for a CPO 3 on the Tesla website.