CCS No Longer Required In UK Due To Brexit?

AUG 13 2016 BY MARK KANE 104

Chargemaster Ultracharger and BMW i3

Chargemaster Ultracharger and BMW i3

Shortly after the Brexit (UK departure from EU), Autocar published an article suggesting that the decision could influence the adoption of electric vehicle charging standards in the country.

As an EU member, the UK was obligated to implement a directive that requires public DC fast chargers to use CCS Combo standard from 2018 (other plugs like CHAdeMO would be then just an option).

But in UK, more than half of all plug-in electric cars are specifically CHAdeMO-users (over 20,000 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEVs alone, and some 14,000 Nissan LEAFs/e-NV200s).

Another 10% falls on Renault ZOE (using AC 3-phase Type 2) and the Tesla Model S (dedicated fast charging standard), while only a fraction of the remaining 35-40% of cars are equipped with CCS Combo inlet.

It is a hot topic because CCS Combo is heavily backed by German manufacturers, and Germany sets tough conditions for the UK after Brexit.

Nissan LEAF CHAdeMO Port

Nissan LEAF CHAdeMO Port

Some voices in UK say that it’s time to drop the CCS requirement so that the market is able to develop freely.

“An EU directive that will standardise rapid-charging EV points in favour of a design that is not common in the UK is set to be an early casualty of the Brexit vote.

Due to be written into UK law this October, the directive has attracted criticism from both the EV industry and UK government and is likely to be quietly shelved as unnecessary.”

“The directive makes the Combined Charging System (CCS) plug – a design adopted largely by German car makers – a legal requirement for any publicly available rapid charger.”

It’s pretty interesting that Chargemaster is among those who would like to see CCS dropped – the company offers multi-standard chargers, and also recently got an investment from the BMW i Ventures Gourp (which is a CCS supporter).

“This is a piece of bureaucracy that this industry, which is still in its infancy, doesn’t need,” said David Martell, boss of Chargemaster, which makes and supplies EV chargers from its Luton-based and factory. “It doesn’t make any point and we want to see it dropped.”

“People could have ended up in prison just for not having the right plug on a public charger,”.

“There’s no legislation that says an iPhone or whatever should have a certain type of plug, so why is that necessary for an EV? It doesn’t make sense.”

source: Autocar

Categories: Charging

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104 Comments on "CCS No Longer Required In UK Due To Brexit?"

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Market forces at work! This may sort itself out through consumer demand, not the manufacturer (German) mandate. Hope this doesn’t slow adoption of the quick charge availability.

Ahum, thats the real problem. It will deifnitly stall development. A common standrad, even if its a bad one, is preferable to anarchy. UK is way to small on its own to e a deciding factor here.

And that’s why we in the U.S. Had five Cellular “Standards”:
CDMA for Verizon
TDMA for Cingular
iDEN for Nextel
GSM for T-Mobile and parts of AT&T
PCS for Sprint

True, when Cingular bought AT&T (and took the AT&T name), they converted their customers to GSM, and Sprint bought Nextel, they converted their customers to PCS.

So in reality, we’re down to three, CDMA, GSM, and PCS.

So at this point, if “Market Forces” are going to determine a standard, it will probably take another twenty years.

Yea, Capitalism!

No. As contentious as it sounds, I do think that Government should step in and establish a standard. The problem is if they do, they’re listen more to lobbyists than engineers.

Sprint is CDMA, or whatever new CDMA is called these days. Sprint started out with GSM long ago, but switched to CDMA (also long ago). More recently, Sprint had WiMax for their 4G data services, but they’re using LTE as of 2016.

I don’t think there’s such a thing as PCS standard. 1900 MHz band used to be called PCS band used by “new” 2G/2.5G cellular standard (ie, GSM/CDMA) in US back in mid 1990’s due to normal 800 MHz being taken by analog cell service (1G). There was PHS standard in Japan, but that never came to US.

As for compatibility, many newer phones come with both GSM and CDMA. For the consumer, it’s more about the hassles of switching carriers than underlying technology.

Everybody is using LTE nowadays. LTE has a bunch of different bands but manufacturers try to cover them all. I just looked into the status in Spain for my mom’s iPad and the iPad 2 Air covered pretty much everything, and the iPad Pro has additional bands.

There are still areas where you have to rely on the old GSM / CDMA standards, but the market is pushing towards these universal standards. It just took a lot longer in the US b/c of the lack of a mandated standard

Leaf dominates European market. Everything will be decided with 40 kWh Leaf, which we will see in less than two months. There will be no competition from CCS cars on the road in Europe, Opel > 44000 €, e-Golf 36 kWh, i3 33 kWh and Hyundai Ioniq fail. Nissan has a free choice.

Actually, the EU marked is dominated by the ZOE. but you are right that the next Leaf and ZOE will decide the future EU charging standard…

Where do you have this information from? The Ampera-e price is unknown in Europe – and converting the Bolt price at exchange rate certainly doesn’t give this result (though obviously they can set the price for the Opel freely). The LEAF having 40 kWh is a rumour that is popping up more and more frequently, but nobody ever gives a source, nevermind a source that isn’t itself simply a rumor from some unknown quantity, so it’s really not so easy to tell whether it is credible or not.

Please post links to your sources or otherwise reference them. It is impossible for me to verify your claims otherwise.

The price is fix of a source of Rüsselsheim who says >44 k €.

Which is utterly stupid. If the Ampera-e comes with the same Price tag as Tesla’s Model 3 – who in their right shape of mind will buy the Opel? I certainly would rather drive an other year with my old ICE car than spend that kind of money on a vehicle, that is inferiour in every respect other than release date.

The Model 3 will have a smaller battery around 55 kWh, also charging will be slower compared to 100 kW charging a Ampera-E or Leaf 2. So why should it be not more expensive if the battery is 5 kWh more with all its advantages (longer live, faster charging).

LOL.
The Model 3 will be able to fill their 50+ KWH in under 1H, and likely will have 80% in under 15 minutes.
The Bolt? It will not even come CLOSE to that.

Look the pdf files from Nissan, the Leaf protyp with 60 kWh charges faster than a Model S60 (more kWh than a Model S60 in 30 Min). In miles Leaf 2 could charge as fast as Model S85 because less consumption.

If it comes with fast charging (chevrolet’s teaser page for the Bolt doesn’t look like it. Virtually no Informationen on Opel.de), then the Main difference will be, that the Tesla looks like a 40k€ car, while the Ampera-e looks cheap. I would prefer a hatchback, actually. But for 45.000€, I’d rather keep my old Vectra and buy a 160km range Kia Soul EV als a second car for 20k less.

not even close.
Look, other than Japan and South Korea, car makers back CCS.
Most importantly, Chinese makers such as Faraday, along with TESLA, have signed on with CCS. They are NOT signing on with CHAdemo.

Tesla will have their standard in there and it is possible that China will support that and then use a X-over for CCS, BUT, all in all, CCS has won the war.

Well, seems as most existing EV have Chademo and most future EVs will have CCS…
So, who gets to decide? The current or the future users 😉

This planet is our childrens
vs
Smoke’em if You got’em

Nobody is fighting really (excluding Tesla walled garden). Double standard is reality with or without extra legal CCS pushing.

Even without the German lead mandates for German CCS within UK, certainly people will buy German cars that won’t have anything but CCS on them.

So I’m confident that with or without the EU rule, two / three / even four standard charge stations will be built throughout UK… well, as long as there is a UK.

i3 having Chademo as standard in Japan, so I don’t see the reason why this cannot be an option

Technically it can be user selected option, but I don’t think BMW would go for it in Europe/UK/US as they are already committed to pushing CCS, and unlike in Japan it is usable on most public quick chargers.

Obviously, if UK requires CHAdeMO on cars, they will either provide it, or not sell their cars.

I don’t foresee these as even a possibility, however.

The UK is an independent country and does not need German permission to leave the EU or setup its own laws on any matter.

The UK has a modest trade deficit with the EU and a massive trade deficit with Germany. In a trade war, Germany has much more to lose than the UK. Like massive layoffs at German car companies.

You are joking, right? The UK is history. In 10 years it will be a third world country…

It’s no longer the UK it is Great Britain again Scotland stayed in the European Union

Scotland is still part of the UK, for now. The local vote in Scotland was for “Remain” (in the EU), but that has no separate legal status — it was just part of the overall vote (which of course was for “Leave”). (Technically the whole vote is non-binding anyway, but let’s not get into that.)

*Speculation* is that Scotland, preferring the EU, will now hold another referendum to separate from the UK (as they already did in 2014, but at that time voted not to). But no action in that direction has yet occurred, AFAIK.

I’m guessing you were confused on this point by coverage of the presidential campaign of Donald Trump (who was himself perhaps confused). He offered his congratulations to “this” country for the Brexit vote, but he was in Scotland at the time he said it. So Scots were annoyed — but you could still regard his statement as true, if you took “the UK” as the country, rather than Scotland. And for legal purposes, it in fact was a UK-wide vote.

P.S. Scotland will always be part of “Great Britain”, which is the geographical name for the island. If it separates from the UK, the UK will presumably still be “the UK”, only it will then be “the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland”, at least until and unless those countries break off, too.

Nemo said:

“…’Great Britain’, which is the geographical name for the island.”

Well, I learned something today, thanks! I always thought, incorrectly, that “Great Britain” was a political name, not a geographical one. And, after looking at Wikipedia a bit, I see that the difference between “Great Britain” and “The British Isles” is that the latter includes Ireland (and a few small outlying isles), and the former doesn’t.

Here in Ireland we dispute the term “British Isles” as it implies ownership. That’s one reason why the term “British Isles” is often not used on maps, with a trend of labeling the UK and Ireland separately.
The terms used in treaties between the UK and Ireland range from “these islands” to the “islands of north atlantic”.

Actually the uk needs a deal with all eu countries. And as long as they do not send that damned letter requesting to leave uk is still in the eu, warts and all. So even by end 2018 uk will most likely still be part of eu and ccs will have to be installed. Or they stall the implementation of infrastructure.

I don’t believe anybody would force anybody to install CCS in the UK at the time when leaving EU is in progress. Who cares about some obscure EU directives now.

On the other note, CCS is not going to disappear on old or new chargers just because it is needed for practical purposes. I think most quick chargers on UK roads are owned by independent networks, and this is major advantage. No independent network would create obstruction by going to extremes pushing some single standard – they work for customers, not some wannabe monopolist automaker.

Maybe the UK could offer a preference, as in option for either CCS, or CHAdeMO, according to demand, or even offer Tesla to pitch why they should be the new fast charge standard!

Cars are already manufactured with at least four different charge inlets, so offer that. Why limit things?

Suoercharger
CHAdeMO
CCS
Chameleon (AC 22kW / 44kW)

They are going to have to support both standards anyway. Not only does German cars sell in the UK but people like to travel between countries and therefore both systems are needed, unless it can be solved with an adapter.

My guess is that charging stations will support a fewer number of CCS plugs at the same locations as the CHAdeMOs. E.g. if a station has 4 spots, 1 will be CSS and the other 3 CHAdeMO.

Well, if you are a charging provider you want to reach the largest customer base possible. That means your chargers have 3 “hoses” in the form of Chademo, CCS and Type-2 43kW.

It’s presented in the article as if there is a choice, as a commercial entity there really isn’t a choice in this respect.

You also have to keep in mind that there is a market for all the cars that have been sold in the past. You can drop one connector and put up a giant middle finger to a large part of your customer base regardless of which connector specifically.

Perhaps in 20 years when any of the car we have now are scrapped it’s actually a possibility to drop a connector, maybe as early as 10 years. But as long as all three (3) connectors and standard are in use it’s not even on the table.

All other automakers including German ones will use the same battery technology as Leaf and will upgrade their batteries at about the same time, few months sooner or later. Nothing is going to change, all independent charging networks will continue to use double standard chargers as both CCS and Chademo are used by significant number of cars, the same is in UK, EU or US.
The only places it may make difference would be some automaker chargers like at dealer location. Extra CCS plug requirement may indeed be redundant at some Nissan dealer.

It is not a wise suggestion. Suppose in a decade chademo almost disappears in EU due to its support for ccs and Britain forces EU car manufacturers to sell their EVs in UK with Chademo then I would no longer be able to use such a car abroad. CCS will become a standard in Europe sooner or later and choosing chademo which is being dropped by more and more companies is a bit stupid. Just because Leaf and Outlander dominate in EV market now does not mean they will do in 5 years time.
We already have a situation where some models available across EU are not available in UK due to RHD (will also be the case with Bolt/eAmpera). This could be another reason for some companies to not bother with selling their cars here thus limiting the choice of EVs even further.

CHAdeMO, as well as CCS, are both EU standards. Your whole premise is flawed.

CHAdeMO is also the only official standard in Japan.

CHAdeMO is also the most popular standard (by both car quantity and charger quantity) in the world.

CHAdeMO isn’t disappearing.

DC fast charging system standards IEC 61851-23 gives the worldwide requirements for “DC chargers” and provides the general requirements for the control communication between a DC fast charger and an EV.

IEC 62851-24 defines digital communication between a DC fast charger and an EV.

Worldwide IEC “Quick Charging” standards:

1) CHAdeMO (IEC System A) – same plug worldwide, official standard in Japan and European Union

2) GB/T (IEC System B) – China only

3) CCS COMBO1 (IEC System C) – approved by Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), U.S. and Canada only

4) CCS COMBO2 (IEC System C) – Europe only

5) Supercharger (Tesla only, not recognized by IEC, uses different plug in Europe than the plug used in North America and Japan)

Neither GB/T nor CCS-Combo 1 & 2 are offered outside of their home markets of China, U.S. / Canada and Europe respectively.

Chameleon is high speed AC only, primarily in France, but throughout western Europe, anywhere a public 3 phase AC outlet is available (the operator must use their own charge cord).

Chademo is not EU standard. You can get EU funding for installing chargers as long as one of the plugs is ccs. There is no similar requirement for chademo.

Sorry, Charlie… again, CHAdeMO absolutely is an EU standard, and it wasn’t an easy process. With German government and German auto makers making numerous attempts to kill both CHAdeMO and Supercharger (or any other competitors that weren’t German). http://www.chademo.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/EN_standard_2015_01_05.html CHAdeMO officially becomes a European (EN) DC charging standard and is available from the CENELEC National Committees websites Dear CHAdeMO supporter, We are pleased to inform you that CHAdeMO protocol is now officially recognised as a European (EN) charging technology standard by CENELEC*, a European official standardisation organisation. On December 31, 2014, the outstanding standard on DC fast charging connectors (EN 62196-3) was published on the CENELEC national committees’ websites. This completes the set of technical standards that define DC fast charging, together with previously approved DC fast charging system standards: one that defines the requirements for DC chargers and for the control communication between a DC fast charger and an EV (EN 61851-23), as well as the other providing definitions of charger-EV digital communication (EN 61851-24). The recognitions of these 3 standards make CHAdeMO an EU technical DC charging standard along with Combo2, whose connectors were also included in EN 62196-3. This shall endorse and reinforce the current market trend… Read more »
Directive or not, CCS is coming and will be necessary also in the UK. Perhaps the lack of a mandate will delay CCS deployment somewhat on the weird little island, but in the longer run it will make absolutely no difference. I wonder what the political fallout of Brexit will actually be. Voters will surely discover that leaving the EU isn’t going to affect their everyday life in any detectable way, and those who imagined it would stop immigration (or make that globalization?) will be disillusioned in a few years when the reality of ever more immigrants begins to sink in. The west has set itself up for this mess. We are the ones proclaiming we believe in freedom and universal individual rights, and yet we say who can come to our countries – even to visit! – depends on where they were born. I’m not sure we could be more hypocritical if we tried. I know it isn’t a realistic proposition, but I think it’s kind of funny to imagine what would happen if actually any citizen of the world was free to choose where she wanted to live and choose citizenship freely. One thing is certain, and that… Read more »

I see you are not hypocrite and sure you let everybody who wants it to come in to live and sleep in your house, without clinging on your military supremacy and egotistical notion like most other less noble egoists who lock their doors 😉

With cars like the upcoming Bolt EV also supporting CCS, not supporting this standard, which sees rapidly growing numbers, is just stupid.
Also, comparing a car that needs a certain plug to an iPhone which comes with an adapter for a regular household plug doesn’t make sense. If a fast charger doesn’t have the plug you need, you’re stuck. If your phone does, you wait until you’re home and charge it there.

Exactly, iPhone maker wasn’t so stupid to invent Apple only household supercharging outlet. And sure they would be able to invent some much more slick and convenient than this lame NEMA 5-15R outlet that everybody is forced to use in North America. Imagine how convenient it would be – you would have your dedicated new and shiny iOutlet at home that would allow to charge your iDevices at lighning speed! Just for $45.00 you would be able to buy legacy adapter for inferior NEMA 5-15R for charging at reduced speed.

The last I heard Chademo were developing an ultrafast charger of between 150kw – 300kw,

Is that still on the cards ?

CHAdeMO specification is:

500 volts max * 125 amps max = 62.5kW (commonly referred to as “50kW”)

500 volts max * 200 amps design = 100kW

500 volts * 350 amps in 2017 = “150kW” (really 175kW)

1000 volts proposed * 350 amps = 350kW

What good does 1000 volts do? Unless cars start having a 1000 volt pack, they’re still limited to their pack voltage, and hence will not see anywhere near this kind of charge rate.

They could use a DC/DC converter, but then, I’m still asking who likes to provide this much juice for only 1 car at a time.

Tesla has the most novel financing possible for a private company, and they only allocate 60 kw per car on average.

So its rather like taking away the punch bowl, but I’d like to see any large number of cars as well as charging facilities built where everyone has plenty of money.

Teslas to date have usually been very expensive cars. They call my car ‘absurdly expensive’ , but I can buy 3 of them for the price of 1 model X.

The Porsche is supposedly much more expensive. Other than bankers, lawyers and doctors, just who do they think are going to buy all these fast charging cars? 350 kw is alot.

350 kW may start with the high end brands, but a few years down the road with the right pack size, even cheaper cars will charge at that speed.

I think you mean on-board DCDC. That is NOT an option. That’ll be bulky and heat producing; might as well use 1000V ACDC charger.

1000V will be backward compatible like most standards are; even 10 Gbps USB 3.1 is compatible with 0.0015 Gbps USB 1.

I don’t think Tesla 60 kW is due to allocation. Average power to about 80% is 70 kW to 90 kW. I suspect the charge taper is due to inadequate cooling. We know Tesla cannot drive at peak speed (150 MPH?) for more than few minutes. Supercharging is more than the power needed at full speed. If cooling at high speed is an issue, it would be even more of an issue for supercharging.

There are only 1/2 the number of chargers as there are stalls, therefore 2 cars charging simultaneously will both charge slowly unless one of them happens to be not dead.

Bill,

The Tesla Supercharger “slowly” half-rate charge speed that you refer to is still faster than 99.9% of the rest of the world’s installed charges.

So, to keep things in perspective, a current 135kW Tesla Supercharger can charge one car at 120kW, or two cars at nearly 67.5kW (or some combination between the two cars to not exceed 135kW).

The Tesla charge rate is either faster, or double, or nearly triple the PEAK speed of current DC charging systems. News flash; they are non-Tesla charging systems that share power.

I don’t think the ones by me are quite that large – I’ll have to see if I can see the nameplate on the charger.

I agree, 350kW is a lot. The only real use I would see for this type of juice would be large trucks, buses, etc. Maybe I’m thinking too narrowly.

Agreed, ultimately, something will not be done if it is expensive unless there is an underlying business need for it.

Trucks and Busses spread the cost over many goods, or groups of people.

1000 volts will work on cars with up to 1000 volt batteries.

It is expected that the Porsche EV will have an 800 volt battery. I expect Tesla cars to charge at 800 volts in the future (at 400 amps).

As to others, I doubt it. At least not in the short term. They will all stick with 400 volt batteries.

It is 150 kW now. Some installations exist since last year, even if standard wasn’t finalized and released for public at that time.
http://www.chademo.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2016-06-01_High_power_CHAdeMO.pdf
350 kW is work in progress

If UK won’t adopte CCS, it will be very annoying for tourists to visit continent. And of course it will annoying for people from the continent to visit UK.
I don’t know why to drop the CCS now for UK. It’s better to have a standard than to have plenty of non standard chargers.

It is annoying anyway to drive on opposite side of the road with wheel on wrong side of car. One more annoyance. Actually you should blame German/French/American EV non-makers who invented regional standard in an attempt to hold Japanese competition. Now you have what you have.
Realistically though it is overblown. Nobody is going to drop CCS in UK and nobody is going to drop Chademo in continental Europe. Dropping requirement for mandatory support everywhere doesn’t mean dropping CCS in full.

The UK can come up with their own standard or adopt whatever system they want. it’s just a pretty stupid stance if that isolates you from the rest of the European market which will remain the most important one also after Brexit.

it’s like deciding in Europe to switch to 110 voltage. You can do this, the US and Japan use it, it would be just a stupid choice if the rest of your continent is has decided otherwise. many people in the UK don’t really get that even outside the EU they most likely going to adopt 99% of all standards and regulations to continue to participate.

Britain isn’t likely to change its frequency standard of 50 HZ, seeing as power plants on either side of the ‘Chunnel’ regularly send power concurrently in opposite directions depending on need. Of course, a future DC link would eliminate that problem, but there is no incentive to change anyone’s distribution system.

Japan, btw is 100/200 volts. This is probably why the 3.6 kw Nissan Leafs charge at full power at public stations. The country has 2 separate grids, however, 60 HZ in the southwest and 50 HZ in the northeast.

They are currently short on power though, they’ve only recently turned up their 5th Nuclear plant after at one time having 54.

Exactly my point Bill. I was not serious about switching voltage, it just exemplifies that in today’s interconnected world isolation is mostly backfire in yourself. It makes no sense to isolate you if your surrounding environment has adopted other standards.

The only notable exception where convergence has not happened is left hand driving in the UK vs right hand driving in the rest of Europe and most of the world. It would have changed a long time ago if the infrastructure, behavioral, and political cost wouldn’t be so astronomically high.

Seeing as the ‘110 distribution’ used in North America is implemented with only 1 extra medium voltage wire than the 3 extra used in continental Europe, it would be smart if everyone used North America’s system since Residential (you guys call it ‘domestic’) use is much cheaper to supply, overcoming the slightly greater aluminum expense, which is the case for almost all outside and some inside wiring.

But its not going to happen: Europe is very satisfied with its 220/380 to 240/416 system.

The weird thing in Europe is even though distribution is standardized, there are at least 10 different attachment plugs and mating recepticles used in different countries. Someone traveling alot must have a case full of adapter/converters.

Most individual residential customers in Europe are still getting just 1 phase, although 3 phase is somewhat more easily available if you need it. Commercial buildings the US also often have 3 phase access inside. Not so much difference really. At least in Europe you would not see these ugly transformers hanging on poles.

Although my regular Utility (british owned National Grid) I’m sure prevaricates often, or is simply incompetant (declared as such by our current state governor) they did make the point a few years ago that Underground Residential installations were 6 times the installed and maintenance cost as were overhead ones (the ugly cans – which NG use far in excess of what is really required). But I’ll agree with our governor on this incompetance point: My 2-inverter solar installation was fine for the first 2 years – then someone (not me) in my neighborhood complained rightly that the voltage was way too low (legally it has to be within a 114-123 volt window at the point of demarcation). It would typically be 110-113 during the summer days. So then, from 20 June, to 3 July, the voltage would be (at 1 am) 128-129, or much too high (my ugly can started buzzing so I started to keep records). After this – July 4th onward, someone must have complained that the voltage is way too high – probably the computer store on the same feeder (more incompetance by NG – by having a customer so close to the substation on the same… Read more »

“Not much difference inside.”

But I’m not talking about inside, I’m talking about shipment to a neighborhood.

Europeans typically think their system is much cheaper since the US is ‘stuck’ with ‘110’.

Actually, the North American system of distribution is much cheaper since you only need one extra primary wire for a sub-division, whereas in (most) of Europe, you need 3 insulated extra wires and all the appurtenances that go with them. Most of North America is much less densely populated than Europe, so economy of distribution is of prime concern.

We only need 1/3 as many parts, and its easier and more reliable to put 1 wire at the top of a pole as opposed to using a hat-truss or cross-arm for 3.

I don’t have a link to support this, but I’ll guess that MOST electrical energy distribution is done at high voltage three phase.

I agree that you are guessing. Broad generalities are of no help, the point being that 3 phase usage extends far further into the distribution end in Europe than it does in the states. Many small 3 phase installations (where you see only 2 cans on the pole that are different sized), is an unballanced 3 phase connection called ‘open-delta’, and is made from only 2 phases most of the time in the states. I don’t know about San Diego, but PG&E uses it on the smaller 3 phase customers. My particular utility doesn’t use it, but most of the utilities in NY State, do. All electricity to speak of is generated and utilized at 3 phase. But in the states, economies are made on the high-voltage lines (really specifically called ‘Medium Voltage’), where, only 1/3 of the equipment is required for single phase distribution. That, quite simply, is why it is often used. ABB, for new construction in Africa, etc, is pushing a single-phase distribution to the substation level for similiar economizations. This works at transmission voltage levels (220 kv and below). The only problem is the transmission system has to be STAR connected, so it can’t be used… Read more »
I agree that you are guessing. Broad generalities are of no help, the point being that 3 phase usage extends far further into the distribution end in Europe than it does in the states. Many small 3 phase installations (where you see only 2 cans on the pole that are different sized), is an unballanced 3 phase connection called ‘open-delta’, and is made from only 2 phases most of the time in the states. I don’t know about San Diego, but PG&E uses it on the smaller 3 phase customers. My particular utility doesn’t use it, but most of the utilities in NY State, do. All electricity to speak of is generated and utilized at 3 phase. But in the states, economies are made on the high-voltage lines (really specifically called ‘Medium Voltage’), where, only 1/3 of the equipment is required for single phase distribution. That, quite simply, is why it is often used. ABB, for new construction in Africa, etc, is pushing a single-phase distribution to the substation level for similiar economizations. This works at transmission voltage levels (220 kv and below). The only problem is the transmission system has to be STAR connected, so it can’t be used… Read more »

IMHO, whoever is paying for the chargers and installation can decide the requirements and connectors. If the government is supporting it, they can set the requirements as they see fit. If a manufacturer is supporting it, they can make sure their connector is supported, and maybe exclude others. VW supported CCS chargers in California and we have seen that these were the 24kW units that are CCS only, not multi-standard 50kW units that were promised for corridor locations.

The CCS vs CHAdeMO issue only affects high-speed charging. Using the 1772 plug, which I believe is fitted to all cars, at 6.6Kw adds about 40 km range per hour. Thus for most people, the battery will fully charge overnight. The CCS/CHAdeMO is important only for traveling longer distance in one day than the battery will support.

Europe uses Mennekes instead of 1772, as the former offers 3-phase AC charging. That’s why North American CCS is incompatible with European CCS. Unfortunately.

This article isn’t about AC charging.

You can only charge “overnight” if you have an overnight spot to slowly charge at.

With about 1/3 of Amercians and 2/3 of Europeans living in places that might not have ready access convenient electrical power where they park a car, DC charging plays an important role.

For EVs to take hold, their use must be “effortless”, like strolling into a gasoline station when the need arises.

Frankly battery cars don’t make any sense for these 1/3 or 2/3 of the people unless they have access to slow charging at work or can access electric outlet in their parking location.

“Fast” charging is still too slow to sit in your car and wait, or electric grid demand charges will be way to high to make it comparable with gasoline cost for ICE.

Still even 1/3 of population left with overnight charging access is by order of magnitude more than current 1% or less battery car market, so it is a bit early to start worrying about it.

Yes, this debate always leads to “let those other people burn gasoline”.

I will repeat; for EVs to become ubiquitous, charging needs to be as effortless as gasoline.

That doesn’t mean that the car has to add 600 miles of range in 4.2 minutes. That means the infrastructure needs to be available, easy to use, and dependable.

If somebody lives in an apartment and has no job (redundant / retired / military / student / unemployed), those folks might not be driving very far.

A 200 mile range car used in a dense city without at-work or street / garage charging MUST have the fastest DC available.

If a ubiquitous fast charger adds 50-100 miles in 10 minutes (when the battery is depleted), I’m confident that this is well within today’s technology, and meets the needs of 95-98% of the world population.

My point is that we CAN address that 95% of the motoring public needs, and conversely, we never get public acceptance by alienating 1/3 to 2/3 of the population.

UK is an RHD island across from an LHD continent. that is far more of an driving issue than charging port.

GM has stated that they will be producing a RHD Bolt, so no Bolt for UK, HK, Japan, Australia, India etc.

UK is also a small country, just how many DC chargers are needed for 250 mile range LEAF2 and Teslas? particularly with AC being well presented.

Actually, this is not true. You can drive in the “wrong” side of the road with minimum fuzz. Just’ve been to England with a Motorhome. No problem at all. Big, if the UK for some reason hat decided to ban Diesel – I could not have made this trip. That’s the problem that would arise in the Consumer end, if UK would drop continental “fuel” i.e. charging standards.
The left driving market is big enough globally to be profitable for the manufacturers. But having different fast charging standards in UK and the continent would make travel (and in the Long run trade of goods) almost impossible .

yes you can drive on the other side of the road,

no, it is not intuitive, nor is it common, if 1 out a 1,000 cars are with the wrong steering wheel/front lights, then it is not common.

this is not about stopping CCS, its just about letting the market operate and not interfering.

GM Bolt is not coming to UK – soon anyway http://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-wont-offered-right-hand-drive/

so it really will be long range Chademo and Tesla SC market only. CCS will still exist for PHEVs like the i3, and short range EVs. Is that enough to finance further CCS deployment? not without massive subsidies.

There will still be the issue of continental CSS visitors. (As I really love the UK, I hope Bexit will not make going there hard or impossible.) So there will be a demand in CSS charging. I understand, fitting a fast Charger with several Systems is a relatively Minor Factor in the total costs. So I think, we will see charging stations Support all Major standards in the end.

We will just use adapters.

Leaf and other japanese makers uses Chademo.
Germans will use CCS Combo
Rest of Europe will use CCS Combo
Americans will use CCS Combo (see Bolt EV)
Tesla Model 3 may use CCS Combo (Tesla joined CharIn in April)…
Everything shows that in some years the vast majority of cars will have a CCS combo plug… I can´t see the point of take a step back. If UK stops CCS Combo stations deployment will be a huge mistake slowing EV adoption at the expense of costumers.

If only all that were true.

“Americans” aren’t using CCS exclusively, nor is it the most popular. In order of USA deployment:

1) CHAdeMO
2) Tesla
3) CCS

like others here. Not close to accurate.
Lets look at the number of Chargers in America.
According to the major map:
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html

CSS:
774 stations with 1,161 outlets
Tesla:
296 stations with 1,957 outlets.
CHADeMo:
1084 stations with 1,567 outlets.

So, what you see is that Tesla requires the massive number of outlets due to so many cars using them, while Chademo and CCS are simply setting up sites with single outlets, and a few requiring doubles.

In addition, within another year, Tesla expects to have over 1000 stations with more than 3000 outlets. They are cutting several deals right now with 2 major truck stop companies.

Sorry Charlie, but that government site is WOEFULLY inadequate.

CHAdeMO fast charging stations in the world

http://www.chademo.com/

The number of CHAdeMO DC Quick chargers installed up to today is 12028.

Japan 6958
Europe 3178
USA 1784
Others 108

last update 10 August 2016

I will address a VERY common mistake in terms used. CCS and CHAdeMO are quite simply public charging protocols. Neither entity manufacturers chargers, nor do they do networking, installations, billing, repair, etc.

They are standards, officially sanctioned in many countries.

Tesla, in sharp contrast, is “all-of-the-above”.

I feel like I didn’t make my case clear for the casual reader.

Neither CHAdeMO, nor CCS (Combo 1 or Combo 2) are “installing one or two” of anything.

Private and public operators are. Some of these may be funded in part, or in full by a vehicle manufacturer, or a government agency, or through donations, or speculative money, or any number of other methods, but neither CHAdeMO nor CCS is doing that.

Any vehicle manufacturer or charger can manufacturer can build one without permission from anybody. Any network provider can deploy them. Anybody can repair them. Anybody can own them, network them, promote them, etc.

Tesla, however, designed their Supercharger protocol, builds the hardware, installs the hardware, manages the network, provides for all the billing, provides for all the maintenance, and makes these units private and incompatible other competing EVs.

Nobody else can build th charger, do the network, billing, repairs, ownership,mets, EXCEPT Tesla.

Chademo v CCS fight aside the whole article is moot. There was no Brexit yet and it is unclear when, if at all, it will be started. The only thing we know is “not this year”.

Once the process is started it will take up to two years (capped) to complete exit negotiations. Then the UK is out of the EU but the sheer amount of work is going to overwhelm the government and the parliament for years (trade negotiations, editing the EU out of the code, possibly Scottish independence). So, I expect such specific EU regulations to remain in place for as long as it is possible and practical.

Sorry but the article premise is silly. Yes, the implication of the original diktat was that CCS would be the main (and, I suppose eventually, only rapid DC charging standard) but it makes sense for all DCRCs to be ‘triple headers’ to cater for all makes of cars.

By 2020 it will be clear. Not just the Germans pushing CCS though, also the Americans. Pretty sure brexit won’t reduce the British consumers’ desire for those Mercs and Audis which will soon have 150 kW CCS. Regardless, I think the most ridiculous aspect is that there are two or three standards at all.

I find it funny how this aggressive picture is build that the Germans are pushing a standard into the rest of Europe. First of all the French are part of the club and together they make up most of the European car manufacturers (maybe Volvo should be counted as well). There are cars produced in other EU countries of course, but most factories are owned by US, Janapese, or German / French manufacturers (e.g. Vauxhaul is GM, Mini and Rolls Royce is BMW, Jaguar and Land Rover is Tata motors, Seat and Skoda is VW etc). So there is no UK manufacturer with any notable market share that could push a standard.

Who else should push a standard?

I wouldn’t believe everything you here in the media, people getting way ahead of themselves,

Amazingly we are all still here in the UK ! Nothing has changed whatsoever !

Are we so sure the UK is even going to exit? Until they pull the trigger on article 50 and start negotiating, all of this discussion is moot.

No-one bothered to ask CCS’s opinion? Better yet, why did everyone miss the news Renault group has joined the CCS party?

http://charinev.org/news-detail/news/charin-e-v-welcomes-group-renault/?tx_news_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx_news_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=7f4396fa4994a751faca1b70a1a9ab1d

Just had a look at the number of CCS chargers that are already in the UK in there of 527 locations with 575 connections and they literally cover the entire UK !

Perhaps someone should have bothered to see if they were already installed or not !

“There’s no legislation that says an iPhone or whatever should have a certain type of plug, so why is that necessary for an EV? It doesn’t make sense.”

I thought the EU did make a proclamation on that, they chose the MicroUSB connector, and our dear friends at Apple are just willing to pay the fines for violating the decision.

“There’s no legislation that says an iPhone or whatever should have a certain type of plug, so why is that necessary for an EV? It doesn’t make sense.”

Apparently the person being quoted is unaware of their own laws.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580597/All-mobile-phones-EU-charger-European-Parliament-votes-law-attempt-cut-electronic-clutter.html

And that right there is an example of the kind of things that lead to a Brexit vote.

The EU is determined to regulate just about anything and everything they can. That kind of enforced centralised conformity was bound to rub against British free market values and their belief in individual liberties eventually. The short term post-Brexit economic pain is essentially the price of their freedom.

In many ways, Britain is more culturally, politically and economically compatible with North America, so perhaps their future lies in that direction.

The only problem that North America is many thousands of miles away across Atlantic and UK is not so big country with parts of it falling apart as they prefer to have stronger ties to continent.

…”British free market values and their belief in individual liberties…”

The Britain you’re referring to doesn’t exist. Modern Britain has long been a socialist govt, and has invested heavily in use of surveillance cameras and other nanny state policies.

Yes, clearly Britons will be better off without a single standard for mobile phone chargers. Liberty! Or whatever.

What is funny is that this will be a fight by major car makers that HATE to spend money so it will be Tesla that continues to build out their network.

“Future thinking” GM can’t get past the idea that if they build an EV charger, then they need to install a petrol pump for ICE cars that they sell.

In California, they are actively lobbying for public utilities to install and pay for it (which are currently mostly prohibited from doing so).

Genius at work.

I suspect it will make very little overall difference. Dual standard chargers are getting cheaper and their cost difference between a signal standard one is pretty minimal compared to all the other cost. This is likely a way to make Nissan happy because I am sure it really urks them having to install a CCS charger when they don’t want to.