Carlos Ghosn Applauds Musk, Tesla – Nothing But Praise

4 months ago by Steven Loveday 74

Renault-Nissan Alliance CEO Carlos Ghosn considers Tesla an ally.

Though shareholders have concerns about Tesla’s success, Renault-Nissan CEO, Carlos Ghosn, paints a different picture.

Ghosn addressed concerns at a recent shareholders’ meeting, putting Tesla CEO Elon Musk and the Silicon Valley electric automaker on a pedestal.

He assured the attendees that they should see Tesla as an ally, rather than a competitor. He shared:

Tesla Model 3

The upcoming Tesla Model 3 is set to pave the way for a future of mass EV adoption globally.

”I also have to pull my hat off of (tip my hat too) Elon Musk, who is a great salesman.

He is a very good person who sells very well the vision of his company. Good for him. We are not at all jealous on the contrary. I consider that the more Tesla advances, the more Tesla develops and the more it helps us. No one denies that we are the biggest players in the field. In a way it helps us to market this technology and make it more desirable.”

Until EVs become commonplace, this type of camaraderie between participants isn’t surprising. The more success any company finds with EVs, the more others will benefit, and the more quickly adoption will occur. Unlike the cutthroat business of traditional automakers, the electric car segments’ “newness” warrants such peer support and mutual respect.

Ghosn didn’t stop with the simple compliments to Elon Musk and his successes. He went on to speak to the electric automaker’s stock market success. It’s hard to ignore the fact that Tesla has now passed the market cap of Ford, General Motors, and BMW. Ghosn continued:

 “When you see a company of 100,000 electric cars per year, which is virtually unprofitable at the moment, which is worth more than a General Motors that sells 9 million, a Ford that sells 8 million, Profitability, as Ford and General Motors’ profits amount to $ 9 billion, there is a question about how the market sees these companies … Tesla is judged on her future, not on her present.

While our market capitalization, as well as that of all other automakers, is more focused on the present and not on the future. That means that if you have any doubts about the future of Tesla, you will have very strong changes on its market capitalization and on the other hand the slightest hope on the current car manufacturers that will be very competitive on the autonomous electric cars connected and you See a market capitalization that will improve.”

Source: The Quebec Times

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74 responses to "Carlos Ghosn Applauds Musk, Tesla – Nothing But Praise"

  1. SparkEV says:

    Tesla was not competing against Nissan in EV. It was GM. It’s Mary Barra who should be praised, or more specifically, GM’s EV engineering team.

    1. Nick says:

      The Bolt is a strong piece of the puzzle. It’s disappointing that GM walked away Frome the game before competing it. They are suck in 20th century thinking (why should we build chargers when we don’t build gas stations).

      1. JeremyK says:

        This is not the way to go. It would be like saying you can only fill up with gas a “Shell” brand gas stations. This is why there why SAE standardized plugs and charging stations are critical. All vehicles should be compatible with any charging station, and any vehicle should be able to charge at any public charging station. Musk did what is necessary for Tesla to survive, but it is not going to be necessary for every manufacturer to have their own charging network going forward.

    2. unlucky says:

      And this is the guy who made a famous frowny face after seeing (sitting in) a Bolt.

      He lauds Musk but has disdain for products and companies he competes more directly with? Is he maybe just trying to sponge off the positive press Tesla gets?

      1. CLIVE says:

        Like you know what he was frowning about.

        🤣

        1. Assaf says:

          +1

          @unlucky, wow what an UNLUCKY comment. Cheer up! You’ll get eaten up inside if you continue this way.

          oh, and @sparky, in case you haven’t notice there’s that obscure unheard-of EV called something like “Model C” or maybe “Model Third”, that just *might* be stepping on the Leaf’s target-market turf as we speak.

          But hey, what do I know.

          1. CLIVE says:

            He is unlucky by choice.

          2. SparkEV says:

            I will believe Model 3 after applying my alien existence test: after I eat it and poop it out. Until then, Model 3 belongs in crypo-zoology, just like all the other stuff that I haven’t passed. Until then, no praise!

            1. Well! All I can say to that is: “That is a Sh1tty thing to say!”

              It seems that Mary Bara has you ‘Owned’, with your little Spark-e.

              1. floydboy says:

                LOL!

            2. Devin Serpa says:

              When EVers fight EVers ICE wins.

          3. unlucky says:

            Yeah, seriously, what do you know? I’d love to know.

            As to the Model 3, don’t count your chickens before they hatch. We don’t know when it comes out or if it will compete with Nissan.

            If it’s only sold to Tesla employees for now it doesn’t compete with Nissan. If it costs nearer to $50K than $30K it doesn’t compete with Nissan. If it’s in so short supply no one can get one (especially in Japan) then it doesn’t compete with Nissan. Better to wait and see what actually comes around before stating how the Model 3 competes with Nissan.

            1. floydboy says:

              It’s due in July. It will be sold to everyone willing to purchase one, starting with Tesla and SpaceX employees. So far nothing’s changed with the base price of $35k. No idea what the base price of the new Leaf is. In such short supply that NO ONE can get one??! Maybe you need to rephrase that one?

              1. JeremyK says:

                Right. LOL

      2. CLIVE says:

        Pure speculation but I bet he frowned because of the horribly narrow seat.

        1. William says:

          Carlos G. wasn’t the first GM Bolt narrow seat frowner, nor will he be the last. I wonder what Mary B.’s facial expression was, if/or when she had some Bolt seat time.

          1. Just_Chris says:

            I think the issue is man splaying – check out:

            https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/02/07/why-general-motors-thinks-us-auto-sales-havent-pea.aspx

            Clear daylight both sides of Mary but nothing for the guys. Even the little guy far left fills the seat.

        2. unlucky says:

          He got in the rear seat, not the front.

          Nice try, hater.

          1. Just_Chris says:

            There is clearly history between the commenters here which I don’t want to become part of but an old man getting into the back of a compact car will most likely not be full of the joy’s of spring. He’s probably just got a bad back.

      3. Brian says:

        Goshn is always frowning. That’s just his face.

    3. Philip Reeve says:

      “It’s Mary Barra who should be praised, or more specifically, GM’s EV engineering team.”

      The engineering team deserving praise, I can accept. As far as Mary Barra (probably GM management overall) is concerned, I think she displays the very worst of ‘succeed in business at any cost’ morality. She has worked tirelessly – and still does – to attempt to destroy Tesla. She shows no commitment whatever to genuinely developing EVs.

      I’m sure, if Tesla collapsed tomorrow, the Bolt would be dropped the following day. Of COURSE GM aren’t developing a charging network! The last thing they want is for people to find out an EV experience can be a pleasure.

      1. Null says:

        Certainly LG’s engineers did a marvelous job on the drive train. Battery cooling? Well that’s for the future to decide.

        But all the negative things about the bolt such as the needlessly spartan interior, the painful seats etc. that was the GM engineers, or rather their suits. I doubt the engineers enjoyed the constraints placed upon them.

  2. Joe says:

    Maybe Nissan/Renault can talk to Tesla about using the Superchargers for future Leaf owners. I’ve read J B Straubel has talked to VW and others about this…

    1. William says:

      It will be interesting to see, who is among the first Legacy ICE manufacturers, to be welcome to climb aboard the Tesla supercharger network/bandwagon. VW might be first in line, for the obvious reasons. I was hoping Nissan would beat the European manufacturers to the punch, in the US first.

      1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        My opinions on the matter:

        Not only won’t any sizable legacy auto maker join the Supercharger network, I can easily see them banding together to create a charging standard with the specific purpose of cutting Tesla out of the equation.

        And refusing to join Tesla’s Supercharger network isn’t being spiteful, either. It would be very poor business practice for one EV maker to put their customers’ ability to charge their EVs at the mercy of a competitor. If any EV maker does join Tesla’s network, it will be a small one that sees more advantage in riding Tesla’s coat-tails than danger in putting itself at Tesla’s mercy.

        Volvo? Peugeot-Citroën? Maybe. GM, Ford, Nissan, Toyota? No way. Not gonna happen.

      2. C,Alvin Scott says:

        Renault-Nissan at least part French

    2. Marshal G says:

      As a LEAF owner I was asked to participate in a survey. One question was would I be willing to pay for access to the Tesla Supercharger network (LEAF 2.0 not current gen). Nissan has at the very least thought about it. Playing nice with the “competition” would fit in with possibly taking the up on the offer.

  3. Someone out there says:

    Well it can’t be denied that few people have done more to getting people talking about EVs than Elon Musk. Carlos Ghosn has done a good job too.

    Tesla’s incredible stock valuation should tell other companies that the market expects to see EVs grow very strongly in the near future and before too long take over the market. So any car manufacturer who is still on the fence about EVs will find themselves losing ground very soon. Batteries are rapidly approaching the price point where EVs are cheaper to buy than ICE cars, at that point companies better have a good offer to the customers or they will disappear.

    1. CLIVE says:

      I wholeheartedly agree ‼️

  4. TM says:

    I like Ghosn, he made the Leaf a priority and brought it to market in a hailstorm of criticism. He stuck it out because he believes in the future of EVs.

    He is OK in my book.

    1. CLIVE says:

      Carlos is a superhero in my eyes.

      He will definitely leave a legacy behind.

      1. SparkEV says:

        His legacy was great up to the point Nissan gave out free charging instead of improving on Leaf to be more competitive. His EV legacy is neutral: being first=great, no improvement for 7 years=bad, free charging to push aging and inadequate design=terrible.

        Fortunately, he’s done lot more great stuff prior to EV.

        1. BenG says:

          The meme that the Leaf didn’t improve for 7 years is wrong and should die.

          Lizard chemistry and increase from 24 kwh to 30 kwh were significant improvements, as was the addition of heat-pump heating.

          1. SparkEV says:

            18.4 kWh (SparkEV) to 60 kWh (Bolt) is a significant improvement. What you list are minor at best.

            As for “lizard”, they should’ve done that in the first place. But even with that, Leaf still doesn’t have TMS. In fact, adding TMS would’ve been something significant.

            At least BMW i3 offers upgrade path to bigger battery. Nissan doesn’t even offer that for existing customers.

            1. William says:

              Sparky, the GM Bolt is a masterpiece that will have some stiff competition from the Leaf soon enough. Let’s just see, what Nissan has as a response, to the LG Chem/ GM Bolt Collaboration. Yeah, Nissan is a year late, but the Leaf sales numbers speak volumes about Carlos Goshen and his willingness to hang out on the EV limb, so to speak.

          2. Mister G says:

            BenG, lizard smizard my 2016 Leaf has lost 2 bars already with 20,687 miles in central Florida, I also leased a 2012 Leaf on 9/2012 and it lost one bar approximately every 9000 miles, conclusion NOTHING has changed.

        2. Klaus says:

          Keep beatin’ that drum. The free charging has been a key factor in many people I know who moved from ICE to EV.

          You may feel it’s abused, but if you cared more about EV adoption than your inconveniences, your view may change. Not holding my breath though.

      2. unlucky says:

        The Leaf was important. But they’ve dropped the ball completely since then.

        Fixing their pack to not wreck itself is not something to laud. 30kWh is better, but it was done as a response to market conditions, not some kind of vanguard action.

        Since the Leaf Nissan has been a laggard. Nissan (presumably Ghosn) failed to bring any other EVs out (other than a commercial conversion van). They cancelled Infiniti projects left and right. They aren’t even spreading electrification via PHEVs, they don’t have a single one.

        Am I glad Nissan did the Leaf? Yes. They did it and didn’t restrict it to CARB states. But his legacy is greatly tarnished by a lack of follow-through.

  5. GeorgeS says:

    Nissan was fast out of the gate but now they have dropped the ball. Talks cheap carlos. Instead of praising Tesla get to work on the new Leaf. You are way late.

    1. CLIVE says:

      They have not dropped the ball.

      Not as easy as you think.

      You’re telling stories.

      You’ll see ‼️

      1. Nada says:

        +1
        First to press for real EVs at a huge legacy company even with the Leafs battery issues Carlos very much helped create the EV market…
        Change at start up companies is a sinchwhilemchange at huge legacy companies a a long slow tooth pulling exercise…

    2. MaartenV-nl says:

      Perhaps you suffer a bit from being myopic?
      Carlos Ghosn did more than just the Leaf.
      He launched also:
      Twizzy
      Fluence/SM3
      Zoë
      Zoë Z.E.40
      Kangoo Z.E.
      Kangoo Z.E.33
      e-NV200
      Master Z.E.
      And his successor at Nissan will present the Leaf II in a few month.

      Nissan has hinted at MY 2018 for the Leaf II for over 2 years, perhaps 3. We all hoped it would be sooner, but when I did a graph of battery prices two years ago, it made perfect sense.

      2018 is the year that battery prices have dropped far enough to do a 60kWh car around the average new price for cars.

      Tesla was aiming for the same spot in time, Mary Barra was too quick in pursuit of bragging rights. And she is paying dearly for it in too high a MSRP and too hard to build.

      Carlos shows how it should have been done, with great patience and accurate planning and taking the time to do it right.

      I would not be surprised if the 2017 sales of the Leaf-II surpass the 2017 sale of the Bolt world wide. (The Bolt is intended to be sold world-wide to.)

      1. SparkEV says:

        “great patience and accurate planning and taking the time to do it right.”

        That’s a laugh. “Great patience” must mean doing nothing for 7 years, only to be pushed by GM to do something other than offering free charging.

        Pushing EV turtle without thermal management at $35K for 7 years (or maybe even longer with Leaf2) is not “accurate planning”. At least Bolt comes close to some cars in its price range, Leaf comes close to cars half the price.

        If “doing it right” means no battery thermal management, Tesla must be doing it wrong.

        Your praise belongs to GM. They “great patience” put out SparkEV for testing EV waters, they sold out via “accurate planning” just as Bolt was released, and took the time to doing it… well, 2 out of 3 ain’t bad. Still, Bolt is far close to “doing it right” than Leaf.

        1. CLIVE says:

          GM is going to be screaming and crying in about 2 years. Customer shift is a coming.

          Bless their little hearts… 💕

          1. SparkEV says:

            Due to Tesla 3, not because of Leaf.

            1. William says:

              Counting chickens before they hatch? Tesla Model 3 will bring a world of hurt to the legacy ICE OEMs 200 mi. + EV roll out plans. We just don’t know yet, what Toyota, and the rest have in store, for a competitive market share retaining response. GM has shown their hand, and I expect the others will follow suite, in short order, after Nissan this delivers the New 2018 Leaf 2.0, (and yes, its shortcomings) this fall.

            2. CLIVE says:

              I know you personally don’t like to leave but I disagree you’ll see

          2. Someone out there says:

            I think GM is going to be one of the big winners in the transition to EVs. They have shown repeatedly that they are willing to take risks and push the market forward.

            They made the EV1 when others did nothing. They released the excellent (compared to other compliance cars) Spark EV. They released the plug-in hybrid with the longest battery range and they were the first ones to push 60 kWh into the “affordable” category of cars.

        2. Bjorn says:

          Sparky, don’t you get tired of drinking your own coolaid? To the informed, balanced observer, Nissan-Renault is clearly ahead of GM, regardless of your little compliance car. GM has sold a few thousand purely electric cars. The Bolt came out just a few months ago, and after driving 160 miles on it yesterday, I am confident the next gen Leaf is going to outsell the Bolt many times over, not the least because its maker is actually committed to producing it in large volume, and to selling it around the world. I wish your rosy view of GM was realistic, let’s hope they get their act together soon.

          1. SparkEV says:

            Here’s my coolaid: I look at an EV and imagine if it’s ICE powered. Then would one buy it at post subsidy price? Bolt is maybe, though less likely. Leaf is no way, Jose!

            Now what is your coolaid that makes Leaf so wonderful?

            1. Marshal G says:

              Worldwide availability. I thought for a second about leasing a Spark over a LEAF in 2013 but it wasn’t available in my area. The GM stealership in my town wasn’t interested in carrying nor supporting EV’s. I can literally walk 5 minutes to a Nissan dealership that has 15-20 LEAF’s in stock right now. Or I can drive to the north side of town and buy one of 3 Volts. No Bolts. Hmmm…. It’s almost like it’s a compliance play.

            2. Bjorn says:

              More than 270,000 sold speaks for itself. Personal taste is an entirely different question than companies’ performance in EV promotion.

            3. Asak says:

              I think your reasoning here is a bit unclear. How are you converting the cars to ICE, just in terms of performance? In that case how is the Bolt inferior to the VW GTI? If the GTI sells, why wouldn’t the Bolt.

              I think it also has to include the car having good fuel efficiency, otherwise you’re ignoring one of the major pluses about EVs. In that case the Leaf stacks up well vs the Prius, Corolla or Civic, arguably against the Golf. Personally I just don’t see this huge deficit you’re talking about.

          2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

            So, all the “informed, balanced” industry watchers agree with you?

            Biased much? 🙄

            This EV advocate thinks that in EV tech, GM is several years ahead of Nissan, and that furthermore, Nissan is doing virtually nothing to catch up. Now, Nissan does have it all over GM when it comes to actually producing and selling its one, single plug-in EV.

            But this is like two bald mean arguing over a comb. Neither company has shown real commitment to pushing forward the EV revolution. Both have created innovative EVs — the Leaf, the Volt — and then sat on the technology and didn’t use the tech in a wider variety of vehicles.

            And good as the Bolt EV is, all signs point to GM not ramping up production beyond what they need to earn ZEV credits.

            Furthermore, Nissan has gone backwards in abandoning its battery factories. Neither GM nor Nissan is moving to build factories to control its own battery supply, which is what is needed for high-volume plug-in EV manufacturing. BYD and Tesla remain the only EV manufacturers capable of ramping up production to compete with even one single model of popular gasmobile, let alone an entire line of them.

            This argument between Nissan fans and GM fans is like two molehills in the shadow of a mountain arguing over which is the taller.

          3. JeremyK says:

            GM has produced about as many battery-electric vehicles as Tesla, it just happens that many of them have an on-board ICE as a backup. To say that GM is behind Nissan, regarding EV battery tech is absolutely incorrect. GM is already well into their 2nd Gen PHEV, and 2nd Gen BEV.

      2. unlucky says:

        I wouldn’t be surprised if the Leaf outsold the Bolt every year. Next year, this year, etc. Because it’s cheaper. It’s a short-range car.

        The Bolt isn’t sold worldwide. GM doesn’t show any interest in taking it to Japan for example.

        GM won’t be taking that car worldwide like the Leaf at least until their costs come down. And honestly, I don’t think they’ll do it after that either.

        Your “makes perfect sense” about battery prices is strange. We don’t know how much battery is in the Leaf. How can it make perfect sense if we don’t know what batteries they are using or how big the pack is? You assume it’s going to be 60kWh, right now there doesn’t seem to be any reason to assume that.

    3. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      GeorgeS said:

      “Nissan was fast out of the gate but now they have dropped the ball. Talks cheap carlos. Instead of praising Tesla get to work on the new Leaf. You are way late.”

      Agree with George 100%.

      Nissan is the BlackBerry of EV makers. The Leaf was innovative when it came out, but they have done very little since to keep it competitive.

  6. Assaf says:

    Now there’s a Mentsch for you.

  7. Chris O says:

    That’s great. Now bring us that next gen Leaf that can actually compete with Model 3. And don’t forget to have a good answer to the question of where to recharge on longer trips and how long that would take.

  8. Benz says:

    Total cumulative sales of the Nissan Leaf: more than 270.000.

    The second generation of the Nissan Leaf should reach that sales number much sooner.

  9. Vexar says:

    “No one denies that we are the biggest players in the field” While true, especially when you don’t forget about Renault, it is not a title they should expect to hold onto for very long, until they start making more popular form factors. Heart-warming to hear this side of Mr. Ghosn.

    1. CLIVE says:

      Now ad Mitsubishi to the mix.

      They are an alliance and a serious force to be reckoned with.

      1. On that note, whatever happened to the slick next generation iMiEV I remember?

        Sure, sales of EV’s from 3 whole ICE Legacy Auto OEM’s exceed Tesla for now, but let’s see what is the comparison by end of 2018!

        I suspect Tesla total EV sales will be in excess of all the BEV’s that Renault, Nissan, & Mitsubishi have sold, by endo 2018!

        1. There was this suggestion that a new iMiEV design would go on sale in 2016!
          Didn’t happen!

          https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2016-mitsubishi-i-miev-us-deliveries-will-reportedly-start-in-march-92376.html

          I liked this bit fron 2013, but it seems to have died, too:
          “If this is the next-generation i-MiEV after all, we can look forward to a larger car with more power, range, and convenience. Although the car’s wheelbase doesn’t change, the CA-MiEV is 159.4 inches long, up from 144.9 inches, and grows from 62.4 inches to 69.9. The overall height decreases from 63.6 inches to 61.0, which suggests the next car will have a much less upright seating position.

          The CA-MiEV is powered by an 107-hp electric motor (up from just 63 for the current model) and a 28-kW battery pack, up from 16 kW on the current car. Mitsubishi estimates that these changes will boost range all the way to 186 miles (300 km), three times more than the i-MiEV’s 62 mile-range. The car also shows off new technologies like magnetic resonance inductive charging (which ditches the plug and charges the car wirelessly), an integrated motor/inverter/charger (which decreases weight and increases efficiency) and a flat, floor-mounted battery pack that makes room for a future range-extending engine.

          The CA-MiEV will seat five people, but Mitsubishi has something altogether different in mind for people looking to haul things.”, from:
          http://kamacong.blogspot.ca/2015/03/mitsubishis-diesel-hybrid-truck-next.html

        2. William says:

          Your safe estimation, in counting Tesla as the Volume leader in EVs sales world wide, compared to the Nissan/Renault/Mitsubishi alliance, for the Model year 2018, may very well come to fruition. This will be an amazing head to head competition to watch, especially about this time next year. The last 6 months of 2018, will be where the successful sales and production tactics, will show their disruptive merit!

  10. Tahoe Bear says:

    He wants in on the Supercharger network… One simply does not praise a competitor in business for free.

    1. Jason says:

      I certainly hope so! CHAdeMO is dead as far as I can tell, CCS had taken that place. You could imagine Nissan saying “FU CCS, we’re going SC!”.

      1. CLIVE says:

        NO WAY. Please enlighten us…

        Show us a map that shows CCS is bigger than CHAdeMO.

    2. Kevin Cowgill says:

      That’s a great point.
      As a member of the greasy unwashed masses, I so want to Crash the Supercharger party.

      I would pay to be unwelcome😀

      1. Marshal G says:

        LOL me too!

    3. CLIVE says:

      Tahoe Bear,

      Sure they do.

      He sells from strength not from fear.

  11. FreePat says:

    I still don’t understand why none of our best French a European leaders understood on time what Tesla was trying to do here, nor tried to do the same. For years the french have been trying to beat the Germans to grab a small part of their Mid-Range and high-end cars market, playing me-too, bloqued by Tons of German Patents and reputation and proven quality on everything from the huge ICE engines, the huge GearBoxes and transmissions, …etc. And when there is a path to buy-pass all this in one go, and Tesla proves it simple (Is a little startup in California can do it !!!) and Renault-Nissan continues to only play on little Electric Second cars and small things, not enabled for SuperChargers hence not capable to replace the main family all-purposes car. Really I don’t understand this lack of vision and ambition that puts all french engineers like myself at shame….
    Please wake them up Carlos !

    1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      Because just like every other legacy auto maker, large and small, they have invested in the technology of gasmobiles. Switching to EVs means throwing away a lot of the investments they’ve made in production lines, as well as all the R&D they have invested in developing gasoline/diesel engines.

      GM, for example, has entire factories devoted just to building ICEngines. Smaller auto makers of course may not have such specialized factories, but they probably have a similar fraction of their infrastructure devoted specifically to producing ICEVs.

      There is no mystery here. The same thing happens in every disruptive tech revolution. Industry leaders invested in the old tech have a strong financial disincentive to invest in the new tech.

      The quote below is a few years old now, but it’s still as true today as when it was written:

      “Until we see Audi, Mercedes, VW, Toyota, GM, Ford deliver a BEV that similarly dusts their own top-of-line ICE product in performance AND value for money, there will be no effective BEV competition for Tesla. And this isn’t going to happen for a LONG time, not for technical reasons, but because ICE carmakers cannot remain viable companies if they start killing off their highest margin products. The ICE carmakers will put batteries into version of their products for the customers who ask for ‘the electric one’. They will build low-end, compliance BEVs to earn the ZEV credits they need without cannibalizing their high-end ICEs. They will build hybrids and PHEVs to get their CAFE and CO2 g/km numbers. But they aren’t going to deliberately kill off their top profit making products just to compete with Tesla — at least not until Tesla gets a whole lot bigger than they are now.”

      –Randy Carlson

      1. TomArt says:

        That is a great quote, and yes, still true.

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