Big Oil Makes A New Attempt To Kill Electric Cars

DEC 23 2018 BY EVANNEX 274

BIG OIL TRIES TO KILL THE ELECTRIC CAR (AGAIN)

Electric vehicles are getting close to a major tipping point, and it isn’t just fans who are taking notice. The powerful enemies of transportation electrification and renewable energy are beginning to launch a serious counterattack.

*This article comes to us courtesy of EVANNEX (which also makes aftermarket Tesla accessories). Authored by Charles Morris. The opinions expressed in these articles are not necessarily our own at InsideEVs.

Above: Could electric vehicle charging stations gain popularity over gas pumps? (Instagram: @archduke97)

Is this a conspiracy theory that can be dismissed? Not really. The definition of a conspiracy is different actors working together in secret. While the efforts of EV enemies – legacy automakers, oil interests and “conservative” governments – do complement one another, as far as we know they haven’t formed any formal cartel (nor do the Lizard People, aliens or Elvis seem to be involved). And there’s not much secrecy about what they’re doing. The efforts of oil industry-backed groups to hold back the electric tide are well-documented, most recently in a lengthy article in the New York Times.

The Trump administration has been working with auto industry trade groups (openly, not in secret) to water down federal fuel economy standards since before the president’s inauguration. This is a legal process that will take many months to play out, and advocates on both sides of the issue are working to sway public opinion. As the Times reports, Marathon Petroleum, the country’s largest refiner, has devoted much effort and money to ensure that the standards get rolled back. Along with its allies – oil industry trade groups and a network of conservative “think tanks” financed by billionaire bogeyman Charles G. Koch – Marathon argues that the US now has so much oil that it no longer needs to worry about energy conservation.

“With oil scarcity no longer a concern,” Americans should be given a “choice in vehicles that best fit their needs,” read a draft of a letter that Marathon helped to circulate to members of Congress. According to the Times, official correspondence later sent to regulators by more than a dozen lawmakers included phrases or sentences from the industry talking points, and the US administration’s proposed rule rollback relies on similar arguments.

Above: Companies like Tesla could pose a challenge to the oil industry (Instagram: teslaownersitalyticinorsm)

Marathon Petroleum has also teamed up with the American Legislative Exchange Council, a reliable opponent of environmental regulation, to draft pro-industry legislation for state governments. ALEC’s handy guide to the issue describes current fuel-efficiency rules as “a relic of a disproven narrative of resource scarcity” and says “unelected bureaucrats” shouldn’t tell Americans what cars to drive.

Meanwhile, a major Facebook campaign, covertly run by an oil-industry lobby representing Exxon Mobil, Chevron, Phillips 66 and other oil giants, urged people to write to regulators to support the rollback. The Facebook ads linked to a website with a picture of a grinning President Obama and the question, “Would YOU buy a used car from this man?” The site appears to have been so effective that a quarter of the 12,000 public comments received by the Department of Transportation can be traced to the petition, according to a Times analysis.

The Times article documents the influence Marathon wields over Trump administration officials and state lawmakers around the country. The refiner was a major donor to former Oklahoma State Senator and Attorney General Scott Pruitt, and its CEO, Gary Heminger, met with Pruitt several times after he became Trump’s EPA Administrator (Pruitt resigned in July, under the shadow of at least 14 separate federal investigations).

Above: Big Oil isn’t keen on change in the energy sector (Instagram: @energialivre)

Marathon lobbyists provided a letter containing industry talking points to federal lawmakers, according to evidence unearthed by the Times. Nineteen lawmakers from the delegations of Indiana, West Virginia and Pennsylvania sent letters to the Transportation Department that included phrases quoted verbatim from the industry letter to the effect that oil scarcity is no longer a concern.

Marathon sponsored an event in New Orleans that was attended by some 1,500 state legislators and other officials from across the country. There, Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao, a longtime opponent of federal fuel economy rules, praised the administration’s “regulatory reforms,” to copious applause.

Meanwhile, oil interests are mobilizing on another front: ending the federal tax credit for EV purchases. In October, Senator John Barrasso (R-Wyoming) introduced legislation that would not only abolish the tax credit, but also slap EV owners with a user fee, arguing that the market for electric vehicles “no longer needs the crutch of government assistance.”

Above: A not-so-subtle message from this Tesla owner (Facebook: Leilani Münter)

In a recent article in EcoWatch, Elliott Negin details the support Barrasso and other lawmakers pushing to eliminate the tax credit have received from oil industry groups. Koch Industries has been one of the senator’s top 10 supporters since 2013. The company has also given copious amounts of cash to most of the Republicans on the Senate Finance Committee and the House Ways and Means Committee, which will have to approve any change to the EV tax credit.

Shortly before Barrasso introduced his bill, 30 “free-market organizations” signed a letter to Kevin Brady (R-Texas), Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, urging Congress to either retain the 200,000-EV cap or “eliminate the tax credit entirely.” The letter was organized by the American Energy Alliance, the political lobbying arm of the Institute for Energy Research. The president of both groups is a former lobbyist for Koch Industries, and Koch foundations gave $8.9 million to the two groups between 2012 and 2016. ExxonMobil and the American Petroleum Institute are also patrons.

A spokesman for Koch Industries told the Times that the company has “a long, consistent track record of opposing all forms of corporate welfare, including all subsidies, mandates and other handouts that rig the system.” In fact however, the efforts of Koch and its free-market-loving allies tend to focus on tax breaks for clean energy – they seem to have no objections to subsidies for the oil and gas industry. Mr. Negin cites a 2011 study by investment firm DBL Partners, which found that, since 1918, permanent oil and gas tax breaks and other subsidies have averaged $4.86 billion per year in 2010 dollars – the equivalent of $5.62 billion per year today.

Above: Zac and Jesse discuss some of the reasons the oil industry is trying so hard to prevent the advent of electric vehicles (Youtube: Now You Know)

There’s much, much more in the New York Times and EcoWatch articles, which are both very long and very well-documented. EV advocates who feel like getting depressed (or oil lovers looking for some heart-warming Christmas cheer) may choose to delve further into the vast networks of influence, misinformation and money wielded by those seeking to smother the electric baby in its cradle. Suffice it to say here that oil industry groups are attacking electric vehicles on many fronts all over the world, and their efforts are well organized and extremely well funded.

Is there any hope? Mr. Negin thinks so. Demand for EVs is growing, and there are now more than 40 plug-in models on the market. The costs of batteries and other key components are steadily falling, and they should become even cheaper as more automakers ramp up production. Policymakers in California, China and Europe have (so far) held out valiantly against anti-EV pressure. The global auto industry is in turmoil, and there are pro-EV factions in the boardrooms that may yet gain the upper hand.

Every major technological shift meets with resistance, but the defenders of the past seldom prevail for long. The battle for the future will be a long and bloody one, and it will claim many innocent victims (such as the GM employees who lost their jobs just in time for the holiday season), but it’s one that we can win.

===

Written by: Charles Morris; Source: New York TimesEcoWatch; Video: Now You Know

*Editor’s Note: EVANNEX, which also sells aftermarket gear for Teslas, has kindly allowed us to share some of its content with our readers, free of charge. Our thanks go out to EVANNEX. Check out the site here.

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274 Comments on "Big Oil Makes A New Attempt To Kill Electric Cars"

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I would not strive for war if my life depended on flammable products.

Pretty much impossible to avoid. Energy drives our civilization, you use it to travel, cook, manufacture products like clothing, buildings, computers. Energy is used to conduct large scale farming. Energy can be made and stored in many ways you can store energy by damming up a river to create a lake, and this is one of the safest methods of storing energy we know. But it is not portable. Portable storage, especially compact portable storage of energy is done with chemical changes such as burning fuel or ion exchange in a battery. Both are flammable. We have not yet devised a non-flammable method of convenient compact energy storage.

Huh? Ion exchange in a battery is flammable??? What is the flammable material?

Per “What is the flammable material?” … Teslaquila, I think, it’s really Hot Stuff!

Actually, there are two elements in a Lithium Ion Fire: Flammable Electrolytes, and (under certain specific conditions) a Self Heating and Oxygen Generating Action. Typically when crushed, causing an internal short, generating heat, to start the ball rolling!

Thaddeus Buttmunch, MD

Uhhh…YES, there have been fires in Tesla cars, but NO WAY are they as deadly as gasoline cars on that count, even if there were 100 million EVs!

You make it sound impossible but we have burned no fuel for at least 5 years.
The cost of insulation and solar power that runs our all electric home/car has cost far less than buying a new pickup truck.
We travel by car in our beautiful state of Washington, our food is local, and every day we see more bio-fuels being used where electrification is down the road.
Our city is fortunate to only buy 1.9% of it’s power from non-renewable sources, that changes in five years and the storage you cast as impossible is also coming on line.
“Don’t do anything because we can’t do everything” is stupid.

With insulation and setting up zone systems I’ve reduced my home oil boiler burn rate 60%.
#MoneyinMyBankAccount

Look at the conspiracy on National TV every Sunday, the Biggest Expensive Heaviest Gas Burners are almost the only things advertised. The US Justice Department should be looking at this Conspiracy.

Thaddeus Buttmunch, MD

I use gas heat, but, in my next home, I will have a geothermal heat pump installed. The heat from six feet underground, (about 60 F) which is much warmer than the twenty degree temps here in Detroit-is used to evaporate the refrigerant. Due to the second law of thermodynamics, it’s WAY more efficient than burning gas or oil.

Fuel Oil, i.e. Diesel 2 or 3 or other non-evaporating oils up to Bunker A, are the safest, most efficient and PORTABLE energy storage we ever invented. After the FUD tactics used to scare us into paying exhorbitant prices due to our inflated, worthless money, they’re still the best, which is why the ships, trains, trucks, tanks, and other massive transport vehicles are all diesel powered. When I bought my Smart car, America wouldn’t let me buy the 2-cyl, 800cc DIESEL version Europeans and Asians enjoy which get 80mpg in the city and 90mpg on the Autobahns. Someone has been bribed. 90mpg and no $15,000 battery pack beats all battery powered cars by miles and miles economically. I’ll stick with my 1983 Mercedes 300TD diesel station wagon, for now. It only gets 33mpg at 850,000 miles. We can leave for California in the morning. Too bad modern, post-Chrysler Mercedes Benz cars are no longer dependable at any price.

Fuel Oil is neither efficient, nor safe, nor clean, nor cheap and it never has been. Cheap: It is heavily subsidized by almost all governments (much more so than regenerative sources). The best that could happen to regenerative energies is a level playing field with no subsidies for ALL participants. Then oil would die out rather quickly. (Nuclear and coal would, too.) Clean: Diesel combustion generates several highly toxic gases which make people sick (=> put more load on health services), make people live shorter and lower their workforce (=> bad for all industries). Those aren’t even factored in above. Efficient: Only 15%-19% of the power in the raw material (oil) actually gets converted to torque on your vehicle’s wheels. The rest is lost in transport, refineries, transport again, storage, motor efficiency and drip losses at gas stations. Even with transport, just about every regenerative energy source is more efficient (except maybe solar, but the sun is free). Safe: Aside from the pollution (don’t ever spill the stuff) and its toxicity, and it’s extremely high flammability, there is little left about Diesel (and the like) that can be considered “safe”. Most of the hazard risks that Diesel fuels have don’t… Read more »

All the hardcore diesel lovers are forgoing exhaust pipes and pumping the diesel exhaust right into the cabin. Don’t let big gov tell you what to breathe. MAGA!

Also Diesel burners need to do some third grade math.
Because of the Premium Price of Diesel you’ll saving nothing even with higher mpg, until you break 15,000 miles per year. Exxon does math, most of you won’t break 15,000 and will pay Exxon More Money burning Diesel.

In the Midwest, diesel is currently for $1 more per gallon which equals a fifty percent premium. So, unless your diesel vehicle gets fifty percent better mileage, you will not break even.

Nobody young is excited about diesel. Drive your clunker. We don’t care about it, or your Honda Trail 90, anything that comprises your cylinder index. This site is about a future in electric vehicles, not a place where people talk about well-maintained diesel tractors. Live your life, but appreciate that miles per gallon is still a gallon burnt. Maybe you are cheap, handy in a garage. I don’t know your angle on life. However, the next time you think your old diesel is good for the environment, eat your breakfast next to the tailpipe while it idles and try not to barf in your Grape Nuts. Your notions are quaint but they are also obsolete.

Use diesel exhaust to heat your home. Don’t waste all that valuable heat. MAGA!

Big Oil thanks you for parroting their pravduh. 🙄

Yes, diesel, gasoline, and other fractional petroleum distillates (such as kerosene) are convenient, easy to use, easy to store, and are energy dense. That’s why they have been used so much that the pollution from burning them is poisoning our planet and the very air that we breathe.

We need a better source of energy, for transportation, for heating homes and other buildings, and for powering industry. We need to stop using something which is, in effect, s**tting in our own nest.

Person is a lobbyist. Sounds just like one

Safe? Only in that it’s very hard to set on fire if it’s hit by high explosives. Sgt. Schultz seems to be driving a Panzer.
Look up the medical research on diesel particulates in your lungs. The most important definition of safe is, safe for innocent bystanders.

I guess you have not watched the video where Ionic Materials demonstrates that their “plastic” li-ion battery not only isn’t a fire hazard, it’s actually fire retardant!

Of course, such batteries are not seen in production EVs… yet. Hopefully they will be in less than a decade!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9-cNNYb1Ik

Except your life does depend on flammable products.

You can go 100% electric today, for your home and your car.

depends on location. not to mention city dwellers or monetary power.
next to individual conversion we need to address the change on a national level. (solar, wind, storage /EU)

oh cool.
So, you are off the grid and not buying anything that uses electricity or is transported via oil base vehicles, like food, ambulances, school buses, etc?
Because otherwise, you are a hypocrite and a liar.

How do you heat your house in winter? How does the food you eat make it to the grocery store? I agree with your sentiment, but don’t kid yourself regarding the current state.

There’s these amaaazing inventions called “electric heaters”, passive solar, etc. , and the new Tesla semi will be bringing food to your store soon, etc…

You say, you produce enough power with solar panels to heat your house at any time of the year even when its snowing and you do not rely on grid power or other power sources?

Welcome to the 21 Century!

Even if he didn’t, EVs make cleaning up the grid easier and we need to clean up the grid anyhow.

Jopp, there are things called off grid homes. Sure, older ones may have burnt wood, or propane, but today folks are figuring out Solar Heating, Mass Thermal Storage, Passive and Active Heating and Cooling, using Heat Pumps, and more! All ideas I read about in the 1970’s (Folks are Sure Slow to learn, then do!), and many such heating and cooling techniques do not require Resistive Heating (Which is seldom the best approach, for efficiency, but done right, does come up to temp about as fast as some liquid fueled heating systems, or faster)! Over 20 years ago, it was determined that an area in the South of Nevada & Utah, just 100 miles by 100 miles, in a square, with the available at the time 12% efficient Solar PV Panels could provide ALL THE power Needed for America! Today Solar PV Panels average 16-18% efficiency, with leading panels performance reaching 22%+ efficiency! With the Population Growth, and demand for more electric toys, cars, trucks, and soon Airplanes, Boats, and maybe even Ships, that same 100 x 100 miles square plus using rooftops on all buildings, for Solar Electricity, should be able to generate the needed power! For convenience, Powerwalls,… Read more »

The Tesla Semi may well deliver some food to stores but there is almost zero chance of that happening in Europe and a good part of the rest of the world. While it is certainly a good vehicle, it just won’t work in large parts of the world.
Perhaps that is why the likes of Mercedes, VW and others are already delivering lower range but decidedly more useful vehicles for the last mile deliveries?
But you have good intentions

Yeah, Daimler will probably get more business in the EU than Tesla. eFuso, eCascadia, but who cares what brand of electric semi does the job? Combustion vehicles are headed off a cliff in Europe. Meanwhile, oil lobbyists are running the EPA and Dept. of Interior in the USA. And apparently in their free time, they troll on the comments here.

True! American Food is not Grown as Close To Market, as it is in some Countries, but many Countries in the European Union are each smaller than many Single US States! So infrastructure functions are far different.

Yet, ability to haul many short loads a day is also a place where the Tesla Semi could shine, even in Europe! Like even in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA), Ontario, Canada, our Supply Warehouses are only 15-45 Miles from City Center, on average! (Some are even closer!)

When Tesla makes a smaller “Last Mile” Freight Truck for such Runs, on an Aerodynamic Cube Van concept, it will be interesting to see how it attracts buyers!

You are not being honest if you think we do not rely on flammable products – certainly at present- to live. If they stopped fracking and stopped drilling for oil tomorrow, economies and industrial civilization would grind to a halt and millions would die of disease, starvation, and freezing to death. Our society and our support systems heavily rely on burning hydrocarbons at present. Even the stability of the US dollar and our financial system is currently propped up by oil and the US petrodollar payment system.

I am fully on board with the vision of solar, batteries, electric everything (cars, heat pumps, etc.). But I refuse to delude myself on just how dependent society is today on fossil fuels. Unless you are sustainably manufacturing your own solar panels, electric vehicles, and heating systems at home, you are relying on the outside world of dirty fossil fuels for the industrial and transport systems that allow you to become more independent.

soon. yes, always soon.
And yet, I will bet that you remain connected to the grid and still get food that has used some level of oil, perhaps have gone to hospital, and I would not be surprised to see that you have a gas car.

There is no need at all to burn anything for heating a house!

I burn coal, natural gas and make tons of amazingly radioactive nuclear waste heating mine. It’s all electric. I just don’t make it inside my property lines. So do YOU!

When Trump is gone the pendulum will swing a long way in the other direction.

You can put solar on your roof and PAY YOURSELF the profits these companies are reaping from you.
— Math-For-Fun-And-Profit

Only if you live somewhere where nonrenewables are used to generate electricity. In NZ most of our electricity is from renewable sources. The rest of the world should follow our lead. Plus it is cheaper.

Well I am in Ontario Canada, and we are mostly Hydro and Nuclear.

the issue is, that you have great hydro potential.
We have maxed ours out mostly.
OTOH, we do have the ability to add more wind and above all more geo-thermal esp. since we have yellowstone. NASA has recommended that we put LOTS of geo-thermal in yellowstone basin and build up the crust, but idiots rule America.

Ask the TCHERNOBYL neigbhors about their property line …. if they are still alive …

your arguments are garbage, Melvin. People can heat their house using exclusively renewables depending on solar panels, what their local power source is, etc.

You just cannot – whatsoever – say the same for a diesel generator, which is ALWAYS going to be highly polluting no matter what gibberish you seem to believe.

The current state will be short. Electric transport is already growing fast and will soon be a flood. I heat my house with electricity, mostly offset by my solar. Don’t kid yourself about the duration of the current state.

Yet, heating directly with Solar Heating, is quite likely more efficient energy capture and conversion, than using Solar PV, to electric, to resistance heating! Not much talk if that, though! Most Solar Conversations focus on Photovoltaic (Solar PV) systems!

I heat my apartment with electricity. I cook with electricity. I heat water with electricity. 8 cents a kWh and 80 percent renewable based is hard to beat. Washington has the cheapest and cleanest electricity.

electric heat is pricey, not very efficient. My heat is through nat gas, which is far better.

Natural gas is certainly more efficient than electricity for heating purposes; except when you live in Washington and have so much hydroelectric power to not use it to heat homes is wasting it.

Not using heat pumps is wasting it! Washington isn’t THAT cold, and any regular air-to-air pump would deliver as much heat using 70% less energy. Thanks to the grid it’s rather easy to sell the excess hydropower to somewhere less well endowed in renewables.

Selling excess electricity to other states or Canada doesn’t work so well at night. Mostly because there is no demand at night.

Sure, I’ll tell my landlord to rip out the resistance heating and throw in a heat pump. I’m sure he will love the idea.

“Natural gas is certainly more efficient than electricity for heating purposes…”

Not really true. Heat pumps can be more efficient than natural gas furnaces. Completely depends on equipment.

As you note, efficiency is has little meaning for most renewable energy sources. This is less true for dam based hydroelectric since it is more limited in total availability than other sources but it is still true. Using extra hydroelectric doesn’t make the kid down the street from the plant dumb or give him cancer.

The house I just sold last year had a heat pump, here in Canada Ontario I rarely paid over $100 a month to heat/cool my house. Don’t assume the electric heat is from resistance heaters.

You have an odd definition of “better”. It may be cheaper to use a fossil fuel such as natural gas, but our children and grandchildren won’t thank us for creating a global pollution crisis which they will have to deal with.

Using electricity from renewable sources, and making your home more energy-efficient, reduces one’s carbon footprint in a way that burning natural gas to heat your home and cook never will.

Electric resistance heating is not very efficient, but heat pumps are. And heat pumps are quite effective in most of the US, during most of the year.

Heating is the one thing that’s easy to do 100% efficiently. Everything else has HEAT losses… So if your electricity was to be made from natural gas (lossy), distributed to you (lossy), and used to hear your home via resistive heating (100% efficient), then yes, you’re better off just burning the gas in your home instead (at least with respect to energy efficiency — there would be an increased fire and especially explosion hazard).

But resistive heating is stupid, since we have heat pumps and can make them cheaply enough that they pay for themselves several times over during their lifetime. With any average heat pump electric heating smashes your burn-gas-at-home solution even if that electricity is made using fossil fuels. And with renewable electricity, or nuclear, it’s carbon free as well as much more efficient.

Nat gas is good

“Nat gas is good”

Natural gas kills people. It causes suffering even to those who “benefit” from it.

actually, wrong. heat pumps, esp geothermal, are superior to nat gas, AND AC.

You mean, if there is willingness by the state you live in, there are better options? What a concept. May be, more states should grow balls and do their own thing ignoring the corrupt MAGA crowd.

Yeah our state of Ohio is producing state of Nat Gas. Main economic engine that

Enjoy the earthquakes.

Not as cheap as Idaho.

Electric Trucks save a FORTUNE for those accounts who do the math

My taxes would be lower if the oil industry wasn’t ALWAYS IN MY POCKET. List of US Fossil Fuel subsidies from recent G20 report: – Expensing of Intangible Drilling Costs – Percentage Depletion for Oil and Natural-Gas Wells – Domestic Manufacturing Deduction for Fossil Fuels – Two Year Amortization Period for Geological & Geophysical Expenditures – Percentage Depletion for Hard Mineral Fossil Fuels – Expensing of Exploration and Development Costs for Hard Mineral Fuels – Capital Gains Treatment for Royalties of Coal – Deduction for Tertiary Injectents – Exception to Passive-Loss Limitation for Working Interests in Oil and Natural-Gas Properties – Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit (EOR) Credit – Marginal Wells Credit – Corporate Tax Income Exemption for Fossil-Fuel Publicly Traded Partnerships – Excise Tax Exemption for Crude Oil Derived from Tar Sands – Royalty-Exempt Beneficial Use of Fuels – Royalty-Free Flaring and Venting of Natural Gas – Liability Cap on Natural Resource Damage – Subsidies for fossil fuels used in the residential sector – Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP) – 50 year amortization schedule for coal plants. – The frill method used to make fracking possible was developed wit US tax dollars – All frack fluid is a trade… Read more »

It’s interesting how much big oil wants to widen/deepen the valley of death for traditional automakers by taking away the EV incentive. I anticipate that successfully killing the EV incentive will ensure Tesla becomes the sole major EV manufacturer and that all the ICE companies simply die instead of having a slight chance at successfully transitioning over to EVs.

True. By the time legislation is in place everybody will be hit hard except Tesla and GM

GM will be hit hard. They still have 222 billion tied up in ICE plants and machinery.

I thought that was Ford: $222 Billion in Debt.

I think Mary Barra is doing the best she can. Transitioning GM to fit their stated vision of zero emissions might be an impossible task, but the world will be better off if GM succeeds.

Only a fool thinks that GM will not be hit hard. they are SOOO far behind it is disgusting.
GM does not own its batteries, and those are made in S. Korea and China.
So, those companies will do OK.
Germany is half and half, while only the Netherlands has any cell manufacturing coming.

I understand that this campaign by oil companies is world wide, but I get the impression it is only successful in USA and Japan. As European and Chinese auto manufacturers transition to EVs, USA and Japanese hold-outs will fall behind in the technology race and go out of business. The oil campaign will prolong their life, but at the cost of failed auto brands in USA and Japan.

Didn’t you just see the Paris Riots?
Supposed poor people complaining about a gas tax rise?
Poor People take the Excellent Public Transit in France.

This is a FALSE FLAG if there ever was one.
Do they like the cancer from gas burning in cities?
I bet they do not.

poor people will possibly revolt all over against big OIL,corrupt Politicians,cheater big Industry,very stupid ,ignorant consumers…..(lies,manipulations,denial) hopefully before it is LATE………..

False flag? Dude, you need to adjust your tinfoil hat; it’s cutting off the blood supply to your brain.

It’s certainly not the rich 1% who are out rioting in the streets! Not in France or anywhere else. Civil unrest and increasing mob violence are a perfectly predictable result of rising inequality between rich and poor. This situation is going to keep getting worse until the imbalance is redressed, just as happened in the 1930s.

it seems that the REST of the World cares quite more about Global Warming(CO2) than those 2 countries named above……

Yes, any “success” enjoyed at slowing the transition only comes at the expense of future economic activity in the countries where the slowing occurs.

If Trump starts a war on EV’s he’ll give the industry to China. #MAGA-LOL.
Exactly.
Why Repubs FAIL at government all day long.
You cannot make policy by propping up the LOSERS that run to you with Campaign cash, like the Koch Bros. Lazy Old Billionaires will run their businesses into the ground begging for continuing Government Handouts.

Yep, 100% agree. All it will do is make Tesla even stronger longterm. In one way they are helping Tesla as a business but not their mission statement.

actually, the faster that Tesla grows, the more they will accomplish their mission statement.

I have to say that I HOPE that GM, Ford, and Chrsyler (and is spun off) dies.
What is needed is to break these companies up. 2 brands at most, but, I really think that individual companies would do better.
By breaking them up and gaining say 10 small companies, we would see REAL competition, and would have to bail out any future car maker.

Oil has been tanking lately despite silly claims just a few months ago by many that it was going to over $100 a barrel. You bet they’re worried despite not even paying even lip service to the threat to their business, at least publicly. Their boilerplate stuff to shareholders is all about increasing market demand for oil, at least until 2040. See we did all these studies, that show evs will take decades to catch on. Who exactly paid for those studies, why Big Oil of course.
Still we need oil, just not a much and demand will continue to fall.
So, cheap gas, thanks to the ev community, at least in part, for that.

Oil isn’t tanking because of EVs. It’s because the US keeps increasing output, and every time the price goes above $60 there’s a burst of new drilling.

Fears of a global economic slowdown also helped push prices down this week, but aggressive drilling is the underlying factor.

True oil price discovery, among the big 5 0il C0RPS, has most always “helped push prices down”.

When the greater worldwide oil patch starts to compete for more of the dwindling existing market share, especially by region and national/sovereign financial interests, the under $50. ($45.59 which is also revisiting July ’17 lows) US West Texas Intermediate (WTI) becomes a stark reality, keeping business input costs more affordable than EVer.

It is amazing that the refinery market can’t seem to judge actual demand and cut back supply to match.
They literally knife themselves in the back with overproduction.

But, these are not innovative companies.

that would be called collusion and that is illegal.

Petroleum demand growth is decreasing but most drillers believe demand growth will rise again, that’s why they keep overproducing.
EV’s are reducing demand growth and most drillers don’t want to recognize this reality. In the next few years the reality that EV’s are affecting petroleum demand is going to be a serious wake-up call to all drillers currently in EV adoption denial.
At this point, there is nothing the petroleum industry can do to stop EV adoption. I would even venture to say they can’t do much to even slow it down.
Let them waste their money on negative ad’s and keep trying to convince people we don’t need EV’s. You can’t hold back technology.

I agree, there isn’t much that Big Oil can do to slow the EV revolution. They gave it their best shot by promoting the “hydrogen economy” hoax, and they have had some success in promoting anti-EV propaganda, but that’s mostly because very few people have direct experience driving BEVs. As the BEV market grows, people will become more familiar with them, and willl stop paying attention to the nonsense comeing from Big Oil propaganda mills, i.e. “think tanks”.

And as the US stock market finally figures it out these companies will go Bankrupt.

Well, if the financial markets freeze up again like in 2008, the question is, what companies WON’T go bankrupt? They all rely on banks to cycle their daily operating cash.

oil companies are responsible human beeings
(in mathmatics a dead planet earth is still 100%)

responsible of denial???

12.000 people dying per year due to air polution/fossil fuel in my small country, the Netherlands. Thank you fossil fuel-industry terrorists.

+1
1.6 million people are dying in China because of pollution from Coal & Oil.
While coal is burnt mostly in power plants outside cities, oil is burnt in vehicles inside cities which kills more directly.

And China is aggressively moving towards electric vehicles. And those vehicles are powered by the grid. And the grid in China is powered by coal and oil. Oh no! This is making my weedle head hurt!

China uses coal to produce electricity

and all the items what you buy at Costco!!!(plus transportation costs+pollution)

no different than America being the global manufacturer back in 30-90s. Are you going to hold your nation responsible for that?

China is World #1 in Hydro, Solar & Wind. Now they also have 44 nuclear plants in operation which is World #3 after USA & France with many reactors in Japan being idle.
Of late, they are also using more natgas fired power plants.

So their grid is getting cleaner. I think you are still reading newspaper bought by your dad.

And Solar and Wind and Hydro and Nuclear.

“China uses coal to produce electricity”

Most grids need to be cleaned up. Fortunately, they will be so EVs will get cleaner over time.

Stop the FUD.
A BEV produces less pollution on the dirtiest known Coal grid, than a 45mpg Toyota Prius does on cleanest gas. All electrical grids are getting cleaner by the year, where as few (if any cars) are getting better mileage than 45mpg. This ignores that most of the dangerous pollution is tailpipe pollution not only CO2 pollution.
Remember it is better mileage to run a Tesla model 3 on a gas burning generator (put it on a trailer if you have range anxiety) than driving a Toyota corolla.

You are lying.
Coal is far far dirtier than ANY recent ICE vehicle. ICE puts out a small smattering of pollution, while coal puts out a WIDE array (thorium, uranium, plutonium, Fe, lead, mercury, etc) esp in China which does NOT choose to turn on their emissions controls.
If China had their emissions controls on, they would not have anywhere NEAR the pollution they have today.

I bet you’re not as uninformed as you’d like us to believe.
China is shutting down 100’s of old small coal plants and replacing them with a few modern, cleaner burning, less polluting plants, along with building out some nuclear plants, and vast fields of solar.
They still have to connect their vast solar fields to their national grid but that’s coming soon.

So, overall, even with a build out of new coal plants, their environment will get rapidly better and their carbon output will rapidly drop.

What’s the US excuse for doing nothing?
Republican Party BRIBED by Corporate America on Every Issue.

Also, Detention Center industry funding Repubs to increase family separations.
And Pay-Day-Lender industry Crying for Trump Protection to continue their IMMORAL Rape of Poor People.

Whenever there’s an IMMORAL Policy Decision from the White House, Look for the Check.

China’s economy is going to tank and they won’t be able to afford transitioning from coal to renewables.

And why’s that? I think the opposite. The US hegemony is coming to an end. It doesn’t take a genius to see that it is deeply dysfunctional now — politically and socially. And Trump isn’t the problem, he’s merely the symptom. In two years you’ll have an election unlike any ever seen before, with lots of candidates attempting to use the anti-establishment, authoritarian, distrustful zeitgeist to their advantage. I can’t see how Americans are going to come together, and fixing it takes nothing less. Nothing but chaos seems to lie ahead.

China certainly also faces some huge internal risks. I really don’t believe their system is nearly as good as a well-functioning democracy. It’s just better than a deeply dysfunctional one.

The best way to restart a collapsed economy is public works projects. I doubt that is going to mean new coal mines.

Their environment, sadly, is not going to get rapidly better. It is going to get worse at a slower rate. It would be awesome if burning less coal than last year meant better air that same year, but that’s not the case. It will still get worse, despite China continuing to improve fast, but when it turns around it will get significantly better every year for many years. The lag works both ways, and China isn’t wasting decades bickering like the US does. It will be the clear economic superpower and we all should hope they have a better understanding of, and more respect for, our Western ways than we have had for their Eastern…

another BSer who does not care about the truth.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/china-building-new-coal-plants-equal-to-entire-us-capacity_2679901.html

China is ADDING, not just replacing. There is a HUGE difference.
And they are adding not just the amount of America to china, but they are adding a similar amount OUTSIDE OF CHINA. These will be operational BY END OF 2020.

While Trump is a major screw-up, your China combined with ppl like you, is what is killing the globe.

coal, not oil, powers their grid. Interestingly, they are moving to methane from nat gas, but more from coal converted to methane, which is double the CO2 of simply burning the coal.
This is why we need more GHG monitoring sats.

baloney. Most of China’s pollution is not oil, but coal plants not running their emissions control and those plants being INSIDE or on the edge of cities.
the majority of vehicles there are newer and have emissions controls that prevents the pollution you see there.

Another Euro point of view

Prematurely dying, and also household air pollution that has nothing to do with fossil fuel is a big issue but for sure going to EVs should improve situation quite a bit

EVs will improve the planet EXCEPT where these are mostly 100% coal based.

Thanks yourself, your king and Royal Dutch Shell

Yes i’m so sorry for that. Together with a lot of other people and milieudefensie (environmental group), we started a big lawsuit against Shell. Shell is emitting twice the Co2 in the Netherlands than the rest of the Netherlands itself. We think they should be responsable for their actions. Last time we won (Shell/Nigeria oilpollution)

Another Euro point of view
It is good to fight fossil fuel as there are now better options and indeed we can increase life expectancy by having cleaner air. Now, as we are supposed to understand our past to get a clue to where we are going, it is important to put a little of historical perspective in all of that as not to too much demonize that anglo dutch company Shell. I mean in the last 200 years or so the life expectancy has dramatically increased (like 20 years, I did not look the exact numbers), main reason of that are the vastly improved living conditions and of course the medical research (antibiotics etc.), part of that improvement of living conditions was caused by…..burning billions of tons of fossil fuel. So it gave us a longer life as before that when we were working heavy manual jobs 12 hours a day our bodies were broken when reaching the old age of 40. Now we realize that fossil fuel is taking back a minor part of that large life expectancy gift because of air pollution (by the way air pollution due to road transport is only but around 15% of total air pollution). But you… Read more »

How much faster would we have developed better energy technologies if we’d had less screwed-up priorities? People were talking about global warming in the 1950s. But nuclear power was pushed partly because it was a propaganda tool for nuclear militaries trying to make the citizens more positive via “Atoms For Peace”. Why else was US nuclear weapons production located at the Atomic Energy Commission instead of the military so that it was administratively inseparable from the nuclear energy industry?

I have no gratitude to coal. It’s a thing that should be judged on quantifiable criteria against alternatives. But the only criteria that is allowed to win is cost, unless something politically powerful like the military magically overrides that with its own agenda.

congratulations!!!this is the future,coming tsunami…………(and using those huge penalties to clean up-before too late!)

It doesn’t matter anymore. I don’t care if they eliminate minimum mpg standards. EVs are just a lot more fun to drive and are a lot less maintenance to worry about. See this article from seeking alpha. People are going to choose EVs over ICE because once they test drive an EV, they want one.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4225153-evs-oil-ice-impact-2023-beyond?page=1

How does one paste an image in the comments?

Put an html link to an image, the site will automatically pick it up and place it here. Its magic!

comment image

I would argue this graph is not enthusiastic enough and predict the ICE sales will drop of much faster, and EV sales will grow as fast as production increases allow for. My main point is, ICE sales will drop off, and people will willingly wait 3-5 years to replace with EV instead of buying a new ICE today.

I resemble the remark of waiting to buy an EV. I have an ICE with 193K miles on it, never had a vehicle with this many miles before, and I’m waiting for an EV that meets my needs at a price I can tolerate. Looks like I’ll have to hold out until 2021-2023.

Check the used car market. 2012, 2103, and even 2014 Tesla’s can be purchased for less than $35,000. Many are still under warranty. I occasionally see some for less than $30,000. Almost brand new 2018 Nissan Leaf’s are selling for less than $25,000. 2016 and 2017 Chevy Volts are selling for less than $20,000.

Same goes for me.

Exactly, only Tesla is building out to sell 100,000’s of EV’s.
( Except for VW, but that’s 2 years away. )
Everyone else seems to still be building Compliance numbers, but, instead of 30,0000 they’ve bumped up to 50,000. And yet, that is a more rapid growth in supply than is predicted by linear growth models.

plus battery technology is improving every year!!!

Inside EV’s US historical BEV sales numbers match a logarithmic S-Curve reasonably well. If you extend that s-curve out, it projects 10% sales in May of 2023, 50% of sales in January of 2027, and 90% sales in October 2030, so the graph in the previous image looks like garbage me. Sales aren’t going to match the S-Curve perfectly, but how they come up with something that doesn’t look like any mathematical projection at all, is beyond me.

THIS! So what if big oil spends a bunch of money fighting EVs. And btw there are plenty of groups spending plenty of money promoting EVs and fighting oil. That’s what special interest groups do, they spend money toward their cause, and it happens on both sides of every issue all the time.

The main point here is that EVs are awesome and not just eco-friendly goober mobiles anymore. I am super conservative and I love my Model 3. And most of my friends are conservative and when they ride with me they are amazed at the car, and many are making plans to buy one.

The Stone Age didn’t end because we ran out of stones. ICE cars are not long for this world because EVs are awesome and getting better each year. No need to worry, have a Merry Christmas.

Hmmmm, Do I want to keep using my old Razor fliphone or this shiny new minicomputer called an Iphone.

Just the fact you don’t have to inhale fumes and go to a gas station should make pretty much anyone want an EV at least a second car.

In the rain.
I do not have to plug my EV in on rainy days, I just wait till the next sunny day to plugin.
I never have to pump gas in the snow or rain.

I like that advantage.

Precisely.

And the beauty is: the more they fight EV’s, the more they draw attention to them!

The EV train has left the station and can’t be stopped, especially when you see the advantages over ICE vehicles….it’s simply no contest, EV is a no brainer hands down winner.

you can not appreciate how nice it is to never stop at a gas station until you no longer have to.

After selling my Zero DS 12.5 (wich I deeply regret) after 2,5 years, I was back at the gas stationroutine. I was very suprised by how annoying it felt and still is..

I’m at WAWA getting a cup of coffee and a Tastykake, and all I hear is fill up’s for 40-50 dollars.
Those days are gone.

Never Going Back.

No question oil companies lobby to stay alive. But they are in no way trying to kill EV. It’s Nissan and BMW and Maven/Lyft giving free charging that’s killing EV as evidenced by several plugshare commenters who say they will not buy any more EV thanks to waiting at DCFC. And almost all the waiting is due to free chargers.

If any entity really wanted to kill EV, they’d give free charging to all EV. For mere few million dollars (far less than advertising), that will make the chargers hopelessly clogged that everyone who see them will just shake their head and walk away from EV as failed exercise. Meanwhile, they’ll also get “green points” for those who think free charging is a good thing.

Free charging SUCKS!!!!!!!

Sorry, you have a bit of a twisted logic…

There’s no one who says they’ll stop driving EV because of oil company. There are many who say they’ll stop driving EV looking at bunch of free chargers clogging up DCFC. Evidence speaks for itself, logic need not apply.

Except that the real driver of EVs is Tesla (in the US) and free charging hasn’t really been a problem….

Oh it has! And watch this week.

That woman in the photo with the model S is leaning against a bumper made from petrochemicals (along with nearly every non-metal part in a car). It also holds a license plate from a state that sources most of its electricity from fossil fuels so those miles aren’t oil free. The petrochemical industry is still a very important and vital part of our lives.

…and about 15% of current consumption, so you are cool with leaving the other 85% in the ground, right?

Petrochemical production causes some local pollution but little climate change or general air pollution.

Petroleum is very useful for producing all sorts of things—-combusting it is like burning Picassos in the fireplace. Without combustion uses, petrochemicals will last centuries, and some end products can be recycled. And there are renewable & growing alternatives to some of these as well.

Coal? Keep it in the ground. Seal up the mines.

It’s the combustion that’s the problem.

EXACTLY but some folks (especially here) want to simply lump all the GOOD things oil provides the human race with the bad.

It’s the bad things that oil provides which are so immediate and addicting that it has given oil companies the power to pervert our political systems and wage war against scientific procedure. People think that their cheap plastic goodies will last a few years, but ask them to go a few days without gasoline or accept a few cents increase in gasoline taxes, and they’re ready to riot. The oil companies and the elected leaders are well aware of this.
Take that away, and the oil companies are castrated back into normally corrupt Big Business, not global war criminals.

The carbon in that bumper is now sequestered into that bumper and will not contribute to climate change.

But you have a good point (you just don’t know it). We should be saving every drop of oil possible for producing durable plastics and completely stop burning oil for fuel and throw-away single use plastic items.

Yes, let’s not lump all the good things petro does in with “big oil” and conspiracy theories.

Man I hate when a checker puts a bag of potatoes in…… a bag. WTH?

I use recyclable cloth bags, not one use plastic ones.

The single-use plastics end up mostly in burners making electricity, and heat, which is often distributed as “remote heating” to condos and office buildings. But a small part of it is littered, and that small part enters the food chain, with potentially very serious consequences (nobody knows). If plastics are recycled AND never littered they have great utility for mankind — and no terrible consequences for the rest of the biosphere.

How do you know that she doesn’t have solar panels to fuel her car?

Great if she does!

But the panels and all that tech can only happen with a petrochemical industry helping to provide the materials and processes. One day maybe there will be a breakthrough in a true bio-panel.

Maybe one day we will move panel manufacturers to Mars and then we can say they are 100% green…just to satisfy your fetish.

Wouldn’t they be 100% orange then?

A 100% Musky shade of Orange, those fetishly satisfying roof panels will be!

The Red Planet is the new Orange.

Those miles are fume free though for anyone inside the car and outside. They also save fumes and gas by not going to the gas station every week. Also when the state eventually goes renewable no one will notice.

“That woman” (she’d probably prefer you refer to her as “that vegan hippie chick with a racecar”) is Leilani Münter, professional ARCA race car driver among other things, and she powers that Tesla with solar energy. She walks the talk far more than most.

Burning oil just to run around in circles and then driving home in an EV. Man, that’s some hypocrisy right there. LOL
Hopefully she can earn a ride on the EV circuit soon.

Well, you make your money where you can. I hope she can start making money on the EV circuit too.

Likewise, I don’t have a problem with people taking paychecks from oil companies, as long as they have the sense to invest their paychecks in renewables. 🙂

A state that sources most of its electricity from fossil fuels. Absolutely. Like about 45 other states?

NC is number 2 behind CA for solar.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/19/the-us-states-leading-the-way-in-solar.html

But we have very little wind.

Renewables still is 10%. Nuclear is 32%. So that “most” is about 3 years away from not being true.

I like the game TEXAS plays.
They push out Koch Propaganda to the other RED States: Solar is Bad, Wind is BAD, Batteries are BAD.

And yet, they Implement Solar Wind and Battery Policy.
They take the MONEY, and laugh at the Red States All the Way to the Bank.

A bumper that does not pollute my lungs or goes into the water. We don’t want you to stop using petrochemicals, we just want you to stop burning it and polluting the air.

So exactly what is the productive thing we should do about it?
It’s one thing to fight the oil-funded trolls and echo-chamber reactionaries on comment boards, but that’s not effective against the above.
Do we write legislators? Do we write to those in media? Part of the problem is that the bulk of the general public seems apathetic about their general ignorance of the topic.

Write the politicians. Do public outreach by forming EV Associations and write letters, op eds, hold rallies, parades, drive events. Do call in shows when the new car dealerships spread FUD on the radio.
Just DO IT.

Really, letting your fellow citizens test-ride your new EV is probably the one thing that the bad guys are least incapable of attacking. Even if they can’t afford to buy a new car in the near future, they might easily be moved to anger at the idea that current EV owners are being punished by special interests, and that their own future access to these products is being blocked.

I wish there were those mythical eco and climate-billionaires.

Musk gets ten times the press of all those fossil guys combined

The problem is, all sides want to believe those green billionaires exist. The Right wants to believe in Green-commie Soroses who can be scapegoated for the crimes of the rich in general, shielding their preferred Kochs and other scumbags. Liberals want to believe in Musks-as-saviors so that they can save the environment without making any real sacrifices in the short term. Radical Greens and leftists want to wreck all forms of consumption, because they correctly sense that all forms of consumption make ordinary people addicts to and compliant towards the corporations that make the goods. So they hate capitalists whether they’re green or not, and tearing them down ends the addiction.

You can tell that no one is willing to pay for any kind of positive solution here.

It’s no sacrifice to upgrade your home insulation and caulk your windows.
It’s no sacrifice to upgrade your furnace to high efficiency.
It’s no sacrifice to buy Triple Pane Windows.
It’s no sacrifice to drive an EV, the smooth power with no noise or transmission shifts is a luxury.

Conservation:
It makes your home nicer to live in and lowers your Operating Expense.
It’s a huge relief on your budget to cut your fuel expense by 60%,
and make your home have even heat in the rooms with no drafts off windows.
It’s a luxury.

Liberal or Conservative, it’s smart personal policy.

He’s called Tom Steyer. They exist.

Purchase an EV. There is a used market now and very inexpensive, so no excuses. If you have space for solar, consider adding some panels. A garage canopy is a great place to support your EV. Buy enough to offset your miles driven. You will not regret it. Conserve energy. Insulate your home. Live like your planet depends on it. I am not a creationist, but if I were, I ask how can one live with oneself knowing they are participating in wiping out untold numbers of species, not just through global warming, but through particulate matter that enters the bloodstream through the burning of fossil fuels. Any cardiologist or pulmonologist will confirm that it is shortening lives and causing untold medical cost (a fossil fuel subsidy). We have done medical studies on humans. It stands to reason that if it has lungs, it is probably suffering the same. And last but not least, VOTE. This should not be a partisan issue. There is plenty of good fiscal reason to make the change. However, as long as any global party allows themselves to be bought by the oil industry, cast your vote against them. I am a fiscal conservative that… Read more »

Make monthly donations to political groups which help to recruit and to elect climate and eco-conscious politicians who support EVs and a Green New Deal. I recommend Justice Democrats and Our Revolution. Democrats who take corporate money will stab us in the back. Any old blue just won’t do!

Exactly. Loser corporations will always beg the government for more oil subsidy as they die.

Only in the USA…
Trump is a walking talking disaster area for the world. Since he became POTUS the USA has gone backwards.
Leaving the Paris accord was just the first step. His bankers will want nothing less than Tesla closed down and all cars crushed in order to keep Big Oil running the country.
It is time to stop them.
There is little those of us outside the US can do directly to help you guys but you have our best wishes.

Your dear leader is a loose canon but I have to wonder if Pence will be any better? Could he be worse?

The Paris accord was a disaster. It would not have change anything and would have siphoned billions of US taxpayer money to other countries. No thanks. You are free to give all your money to other countries to fund their corrupt governments.

“It would not have change anything and would have siphoned billions of US taxpayer money to other countries. ”

This is a plain lie.

The government has been siphoning billions of US taxpayer money and sending it to other countries for decades in the form of bombs and invading soldiers. I would rather see the money go to clean energy than to Raytheon and Lockheed Martin.

Well you guys like to throw stones, but even though the US has left the Paris Accord the Green-House-Gas production here is significantly down more than any other industrialized country. As an example, Thermal Coal only makes up 22% of our electricity production while the rest of the world is currently at 37%.

Coal companies are not totally out-of-business in the USA since more and more is being Exported.

If your country doesn’t like Coal usage – it would seem the most sensible thing to do would be to stop buying it from us.

Has the USA set a date for the closure of the last Coal Fired Power Station?
AFAIK, they have not.
Has the USA set a date for the last sale of a purely ICE powered Vehicle?
AFAIK, they have not.

Didn’t Westmoreland Coal just declare Chapter 11?
To screw workers out of pensions.

Yes – our CO2 production is down. It is a bit easier when you start so high. But the main reason it is down is the transition from coal to NG. This is made possible by our huge NG reserves. We are among a few in the world that are lucky enough to have so much NG that the dollars make it a no brainer.
Yes – we are the best at exploiting our NG.
But when we create nearly double the CO2 of other countries, being down the most doesn’t really mean much. If we got down to lower per capita, that would mean something. But it would still be driven partly by our luck with NG.
We are also lucky to have a lot of wind and sun within our massive borders.

All the car makers know now they have to shift to electric vehicles as the public purchasing of electrics has scared them into it ! If they don’t embrace then their market share will lessen. The upcoming youth knows how the oil machines add to the envirement pollution noatter what the non- believers say and they will embrace the electric vehicles for the future. There is no stopping it now and times are changing. Gas prices in 5 years will be back to a dollar a gallon or less is my guess !

Time to quote my namesake from Babylon 5:

“The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote” – Ambassador Kosh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1GF4Gnb-D0

Great article from Evannex

The Koch bros et al can probably look forward to Eternal Infernal Combustion in the next life – why perpetuate it in this one ? Don’t roast this planet – roast yourselves elsewhere..forever guys. You’ve earned it – Roast In Peace.
Paul G

Hyperbole. Only a d-bag quotes himself.

Well this is all interesting conjecture. While electric cars may have taken off in places like California, they have yet to do so in my state, even with up to $9500 in incentives per car. I say conjecture since it apparently will depend on mostly Asian companies to make affordable ev’s, like the Toyota PP, the Honda Clarity PHEV, FCA Pacifica (if they ever start making them in numbers), Mitsubishi Phev,Kia/Hyundai, etc. But someone else could paint a somewhat more dire picture. If the MainStream volt was totally possible in 2011 (I in fact owned one of the first), we would have thought 8 model years later there would be many more economical models to choose from. Initially the trend looked good – but now FORD seems to have little interest in electrics, where at first they had Ed Begley, Jr advertising the Focus ev, and Nissan’s Leaf was much more high-profile than it is now. Although the western world’s most popular EV it won’t be long until they are surpassed. And now the trend for GM seems to be they are getting out of electric cars – discontinuing the MOST POPULAR plug-in in the states, and no doubt, they’ll… Read more »
Bill from Buffalo said: “While electric cars may have taken off in places like California, they have yet to do so in my state [New York]…” Well at least Governor Cuomo is now showering New York, including Western NY, with EV fast charger love under his EVolve NY initiative, which will put fast chargers at 15 NY Thruway service areas and in 5 urban hubs that include the cities of Buffalo, Syracuse, and Rochester. The EvolveNY initiative “will deploy up to 200 150kW direct current (DC) fast chargers…to more than two dozen locations along major traffic corridors, John F. Kennedy International Airport and five major cities.” “EVolve NY will target four 150 kW chargers per location at average intervals of less than 75 miles along New York’s major corridors.” “Target corridor locations include Plattsburgh, Watertown and North Hudson in the North Country; Rochester in the Finger Lakes region; Buffalo and Niagara in Western New York; Middletown in Mid-Hudson; Corning and Binghamton in the Southern Tier; and Islip and Freeport in Long Island.” “The cities of Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany and Yonkers have been identified as sites for urban hubs, and high-speed chargers are expected to be installed at approximately 15… Read more »
Neither of my 2 electric cars can fast charge – so that doesn’t benefit me personally, and batteries really aren’t big enough in the cars I own to use the NYS Thruway anyway. I travel along slower less busy roadways to get more miles / kwh. VW as part of their Penance has installed 4 – 350 kw fast chargers at certain Walmarts, none near me. My public recharging requirements are very meager. Sometimes I just need a few extra kwh to get where I am going, or to get home without being stranded. Unfortunately, they are installing plenty of these costly to purchase and operate chargers, yet they never put any 6 kw slow chargers (that are really inexpensive to install and run) with them, nor many new L2. They may be ‘targeting’ 4 -150 kw chargers but the installation I have seen has a group of 3. But point taken that the state is trying to do something. But then again this doesn’t help me personally at all – although the OLD GENEVA Welcome Center does have 4 – 6 kw Schneider docking stations that have come in handy for me.

Time to get a new ev. That’s why we are called early adopters

Nice of you to purchase one for me Will. Dark Green is my favorite color, by the way.

I hate Cuomo for the way he’s running MTA but if that’s his plan for EVs then I will give him props

While GM is being ridiculous, NY is slowly starting to catch up on EV adoption. We are #12 nationally in EV market share (as a percentage of all light vehicles). California market share is 9%; NY market share is 1.3%. That’s actually far better than the laggards, which are a bunch of coal states, oil states, and for some reason South Dakota.

http://evadoption.com/ev-market-share/ev-market-share-state/

(WV has the lowest adoption rates.)

There are only six states where EV market share dropped from 2016 to 2017, and four of them are insignificant changes in small numbers. The two meaningful drops are Wisconsin (I know why) and Tennessee (I don’t know why). The only two states with a drop from 2017 to (provisional data from) 2018 are Vermont (which appears to be a data blip) and Wisconsin (again, I know why).

Why the drop in Wisconsin? Because Scott Walker imposed a punitive and abusive registration fee on electric cars, because he’s employed by the Koch Brothers to commit crimes against humanity.

The world is a bigger place than your state. It is the whole planet we need to care for.

Trump administration is not the one who lead legislation, is FOX news and Rush Radio.

Limbaugh has been shooting his miserable mouth off for 40 years,
And look, implement republican policy in Red States and those State TANK Economically.
And also they cut education, gutting the state’s future.

Miserable Old Men Don’t make good policy.
Limbaugh has a track record of stupid failure, and is too dumb to figure it out.

Eventually the new money will outweigh the old money in the lobbying wars, meaning EV and renewable energy companies will be able to buy more legislators than Big Oil. That’s depressing, but that’s the system we tolerate.

Partly true, but I’d rather believe that the better mousetrap wins this time. It’s not just EVs, but their future source of energy. Every time solar market doubles, the price falls 26%. That math has held true for 40 years. If it continues on the same trajectory then in six years, a utility will be able to build a solar array capable of matching a fossil fuel plant’s one-year operational cost. The utility then will have 24 years plus of free energy. It doesn’t matter how hard you lobby for the utility will take 24 years free every time.

We are finally seeing a similar equation for batteries. Every time giga level battery production doubles it falls 18%. This translates into an extremely competitive EV moving parallel with renewable growth.

The better mousetrap has arrived. There is no stopping it. You can slow it down or expedite it based on our actions. This is just focusing on fiscal issues. What about the untold lives both human and otherwise that have to continue to suffer because we allow dirty blood money rule?

They’re screaming in pain….

Good.

Anti-oil “forces”: Oil is causing global warming, harms life on earth, and renewables are the future”

Pro-oil forces: “increased fracking has led to energy independence and greatly increased natural gas production. The resulting increase in natural gas power generation has led to the USA greatly reducing its emissions, far outstripping wind or solar, and in fact electric cars can be cleaner because they are effectively moving to natural gas as a power source”

Anti-oil forces: “your logical arguments make my head hurt. We must stop fracking!”

True that. People should take a wider view of problems. Natural gas is better than oil and far, far better than coal. Natural gas power plants are more efficient, much cleaner and also faster to regulate. This makes natural gas a better companion to renewables than coal. Wind, solar, gas, biomass, nuclear and hydro could do all electricity society needs. There simply is no need coal at all going forward, and limited need for oil. Electricity can replace much oil and biofuels are capable of replacing a lot of oil use that electricity can’t replace. Being dogmatic about issues invariably leads to doing things in an inefficient way to the detriment of both the environment and the public health. I predict that by 2060 almost no coal and much less oil than today will be used for energy. Worldwide.

Leaky infrastructure makes gas as bad for the climate as coal. Long term effects of fracking in groundwater are unknown. Solar, wind and batteries will be cheaper than gas peaked plants in a few years of not already. Time to stop building new fossil fuel infrastructure.

Or we can fix the issue. Oh no! you cut your finger! Lets cut off your hand to fix that…

Yes, we can fix it by ending fracking.

Practically all fracking is unprofitable. It’s a financial scam — claim high first-year production, then sell the wells in a “hot potato” game, hoping to get away before the buyers notice that they run out within a year.

Financial scammers will never, ever build their wells safely or properly; they will always cut corners.

The Obama administration, hardly an environmental slacker, investigated fracking over and over again, and found nothing outside of the wildly misstated “facts” by leftist loons like the anti-fracking “documentaries”. This is just the latest scare tactic, and the result has been states like New York left out of the fracking revolution even though they have plenty of oil.

The industry seems to wildly prefer spending propaganda money claiming that all these issues are lies and the people discussing them are traitors. You know, like how the entire bought-out government of North Dakota treated pipeline protesters far worse than Charlottesville treated the violent Nazis and Klansmen who protested there. It was as if a central bureau was in charge of smearing both the protesters and commanding the state and private forces used to provoke them:

https://theintercept.com/2017/05/27/leaked-documents-reveal-security-firms-counterterrorism-tactics-at-standing-rock-to-defeat-pipeline-insurgencies/

Natural gas far better? Methane is a far more powerfull threat to global warming than Co2.

We are talking about NG vs *COAL*. Moron.

Far, far better is the part of your statement that many will disagree with. But I think everyone agrees that NG is going to play a huge role going forward. There is a big challenge for countries that don’t have NG. It isn’t easy to ship as you know.

NG days are over.
When you have to rescind the clean water act to help frackers you know your water supply is being polluted by frackers.
Note too, no state is testing the farming product or the livestock on farms that allow fracking. They don’t want to find the cancer. The cancer the farmers and their neighbors are getting.

NG is better than coal. Solar and wind are better than NG. Everyone (who cares about this) understands and agrees on these things (with probably a few exceptions).
But ignoring methane is not fair. Thinking getting a gas out of the ground and transporting by pipes can be made leak free is pretty crazy. Can we do better with leaks? – yes. Is the incentive to do so there? – doubt it.
Ignoring the dangers of fracking is also not fair. They are not zero.

IMO – nuclear is what gets a worse wrap than NG. Everyone is happy about NG replacing coal. But they are a lot happier about solar and wind replacing coal.

There really isn’t any big disagreement here. Pretending there is by insulting environmentalists (“Anti-oil forces”) doesn’t help the conversation. We should all aspire to be grownups or the last 2 years hasn’t taught us much of anything.

I drive an EV. But I see only one or two other EV in employee parking lot for 230 employees at my work. Why is this a tipping point? There are no economy EV with 200 mile range yet and Tesla’s $7500 tax credit ended. Gas price is low. Life is good for everyone. I am pro-choice. EV or ice.
That woman in the photo looks dumb because her Tesla is not oil free. It is gasoline free.

“Life is good for everyone.” Tell that to the person who has contracted cancer or asthma suffers who may have contracted from the burning of fossil fuels. There is a better way.

Those who got cancer from fossil fuel burn is mostly in the poor area and the price of EV and who buy the EV are farthest away from where they are really needed. I cannot even meet them because I live half way around the world.
You?

Those who have contracted live closest to heavy traffic. California has the largest adoption of EVs and one of the largest pollution problems so your logic is quite flawed. There is a solution. Drive electric. As for cost? There is a used EV market now. You can buy a good one for as low as $8,000.

read the WHO report here. https://www.cancer.org/latest-news/world-health-organization-outdoor-air-pollution-causes-cancer.html

“…Studies show that levels of exposure to air pollution have increased significantly in some parts of the world, mostly in rapidly industrializing countries with large populations….”

And how does your link support your original thread of “life is good”, “pro-choice EV-ICE” is good? Your link just confirms that air pollution, which the billions of global ICE fleet are a part of, is contributing to health-related issues like cancer and asthma. The greater the intake into your lungs, the greater your risk. If you live near large industrial OR densely populated areas your risk is greater. ICEs are playing a big part of this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4243514/
https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/vehicles-air-pollution-and-human-health#.XCI_7VxKg2w

It will be hard in Ontario to maintain EV sales growth, or even maintain current level of sales.
There is no rebate/credit program and gas has now dropped to “crazy cheap” levels (bought today at 86.9c/l or US$2.41/US Gal., about 1/2 of the price US$4.71/US Gal back in 2011)
At this point, an EV bought today will never pay back financially.
Sad, but I don’t think there are many people willing to support the green movement strictly from their own wallet.

That is much cheaper than the $2.80 for regular (128 oz gallon) in Buffalo. You guys must have seriously cut your gasoline taxes.

Then bit** when their roads and transit are crap

There are 3 main sectors of Oil consumption. Transport: Gasoline, Diesel, Kerosene and Bunker fuel are used to power road, rail, air and water vehicles in transport sector. LPG, heavy oil and petcoke: These fuels are burnt for heating, cooking and power in non transport sector. Petrochemicals: Lighter hydrocarbons with 2, 3, 4 and more carbon atoms are used to make petrochemicals, lubricants and plastics. In the non transport sector, oil use has drastically declined as electricity, methane (natgas) has taken over in cooking while methane, coal, nuclear, hydro, solar, wind has taken over power generation. Petrochemicals: Methane & Methanol are making inroads into this sector preventing growth of Oil. Transport: Despite electric and electrified vehicle sales skyrocketing, the petromobile sales along with crossovers are increasing the oil consumption and this is a big hope for big oil. They will not let the electric vehicles gain. But Ethanol has already made big inroads and has taken 10% share of light duty vehicles in USA while Methanol has taken 10% share in China. Many other countries are implementing Ethanol E10 and Methanol M10 as the standards. So a brutal 3 way battle is going out with petro fuels on 1 front,… Read more »

Who spread the rumor that the earth is running out of oil? Aren’t we going to run dry of oil within a couple of decades?
Was that a big lie?

The BP oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico, drill 2 miles below the surface.
Those days of cheap oil are over.
There are no more cheap oil wells.
Do you think Alaska drilling will be cheap? Alaska Drilling is INSANE.
There are no more cheap oil drilling sites, a flood of oil on the market means Oil Company Bankruptcies coming soon, real soon. A flood of oil on the market means Alaska cannot be profitably drilled.
But, this is the perfect place for oil companies to go bankrupt with high costs and low prices.

And the fracking industry is unstable financially and about to go bankrupt.

Family member is Latino business owner and loves trump and big oil. Loves the cheap gas and was so saying out loud why we don’t drill in Alaska while his son is going to college for a Environmental science degree. 🙄

BIg lie implies malfeasance. Big word I know – rarely get a chance to use it.
The fact is we do keep finding oil and getting new and creative ways to get it out. The probability is that we will decide to stop burning it because of the damage it does before we run out.
But it does have a finite reserve and it took millions of years to create what we have burned in the last 100.

We were running out of “conventional” oil, relative to the rate at which new discoveries were occurring. Fracked oil is not conventional. It was already discovered, but it was previously inaccessible. Also, the 2008 crash put a big crimp in oil consumption for years.

HAHA!

Edward: Ironically – BIG OIL wants you to think Oil is super precious – that way they can justify all their OIL DEPLETION ALLOWANCES TAX Credits (plus about 10 other types of tax advantaged deals for themselves) – so its in their best interest to have the general public believe the world is just about to run out.

When these guys call a $7500 individual fed tax credit as being “Corporate Welfare” or “Subsidies” they are just doing the falsehood of “Projection” – complaining about tax cuts that poor people get but ignoring the huge WINDFALL they get.

It is neither – it is just less taxation the year you buy an electric car. You are not asking the gov’t for more money – you are just asking for less legalized theft.

It pales in comparison to the unfair benefit the big oil companies get. Hint: They used to be against Global Warming but have since figured out how to make money at it so now they are all in favor of it. Mainly – it will put a big competitor (COAL) out of business.

And a counterpoint to this jingoistic idiocy: Fracking and the oil industry has been providing the ability to switch to natural gas as a power generation fuel. With less demand for oil products, this naturally leads to an imbalance in the production of oil vs. gas because (at present) wells yield gas as a byproduct of oil drilling whether they want gas or not. Formerly the gas was burned off at the well. This imbalance was addressed in part by allowing the export of oil in the USA for the first time in decades. Natural gas is a perfect transition fuel. It can be stored, pipelined and power generation facilities using it can be throttled up and down rapidly, much more rapidly than other technologies (coal, nuclear) so that it can be used to fill in for the times when wind and solar do not generate power. The previous issue with NG was that it could not be readily exported. The only way to export it was via pipeline, meaning that only Canada and Mexico were clients, both of which make their own NG and do not need ours. That issue is largely solved today with LNG or Liquified Natural… Read more »

Natural gas is even worse than coal because of the methane released in it’s production.
Pretty basic knowledge.

“Natural gas is a fossil fuel, though the global warming emissions from its combustion are much lower than those from coal or oil. Natural gas emits 50 to 60 percent less carbon dioxide (CO2) when combusted in a new, efficient natural gas power plant compared with emissions from a typical new coal plant”. (UCS)

Coal is EVen worse than Natural gas.
This is because your supposition that the “Pretty basic knowledge” of methane being released during NG extraction and transport is more environmentally damaging than coal during and after its transformation, in its utilized energy release total life cycle, is deeply flawed.

Coal is so bad on so many levels that NG is still better. It is a matter of debate not “pretty basic knowledge”.

No fundamental conflicts going forward? Are you really that optimistic?
There are large countries that depend on capital from exporting oil. The largest political contributors in the US are oil companies.
A conversation I always remember from 20 years ago had to do with the belief (by the Economist editorial board) that nearly every geopolitical event that happened could be traced to the capital that comes from oil.
Nearly every oil rich country has horrible corruption and horrible human rights records. Having oil is a bit like spoiling your child. Until 2 years ago, the US was the exception.
Oil is literally the root of all evil. It isn’t money – that depends on government backing up the paper – it is oil.
The stranded assets of oil (probably will start in 2 years) is literally the largest potential source of conflict in the world.
You have been smoking the Koch peace pipe a bit too long.

It is not surprising when the oil under the citizens’ feet is more valuable than the citizens, that evil things will be done to them.

US would like to kill ev again but how would thay stop the Chinese?

Competition will drive the market. If Tesla is making a better product that is less expensive to drive long term they will win. Big oil and the government (through incentives or regulation) would have to work very hard to drive the price of gas low enough to make it the equivalent to 125mpg (around the mpge for a Tesla).

How about you spend years buying up the NG infrastructure. Then you win either way. Have too much oil?, raise the price of NG. When you accept oligarchy, they can have the power to do that.
Oil companies can fight solar net metering, they can work to drive up the price of electricity through legislation. In CA right now without solar, an EV can be more expensive to drive.
The only reason EVs are cost effective right now is the Tax credit. Tesla’s advantage is the better driving experience but it isn’t the financial.

A bicycle is better financially than a car. I’ll take the car anyway. A typewriter was cheaper than a PC. Still the PC won out. Caravans are financially more sensible than RVs. Still the market switched to the RVs. EVs can win despite being worse from a financial point of view.

I don’t care if gas falls under a buck a gallon. It’s worth not supporting big oil to drive an EV

China is already at 6% Ev adoption.

Game over

Yep. California at 9%. Norway at… drumroll… 45%.

Market share doubles every two years, though I guess it will have to slow down in Norway soon, since it can’t go over 100%!

I encourage as many of you idiots to get a battery powered (they’re not electric or they’d have a pantagraph to the overhead cantenary) car as possible. Gas is down to $1.84/US gallon in Charleston, SC, USA, today. I just recharged my Smart car for another 2 weeks for $11 to Big Oil, who make possible the easy life we all enjoy. Thank you, Big Oil! The more of you that buy this battery powered Koolaid, the better for me and my gas and diesel vehicles! Fuel is getting cheaper by the month! BUY A NEW BATTERY POWERED PoS TODAY!!

Oil is temporarily cheap because no one is buying it.
There’s a surplus on the market.
As soon as one of the oil companies goes bankrupt, than prices will reset to a higher level.
Learn some economics before you start laughing.

I’ve saved thousands of dollars by operating an electric car since 2013. The oil price will, indeed, be low….until all the oil companies go bust and stop drilling (probably next year) and all the fracked wells dry up (probably year after next).

I suggest you make plans to get an EV by 2020.

Nobody has to ‘make plans’ to get an EV by 2020. There won’t be any new ICE cars available by then. Only thing left will be stranded ICE manufacturing capacity. 2025 is my SWAG for >50% EV sold. EV will just be cheaper in every way. Money talks.

GM gets it. Not only no sedans, no ICE cars at all.

You worship Exxon as a god. You remind me of Charlie Parker, one of America’s greatest musicians, who was so addicted to heroin that he named one of his last recordings after his pusher just before dying at age 34. I’m sure he thought heroin made his life easier too.

We all love our pushers.

We don’t need to worry about the triumvirate killing off the transition to sustainable transport when some in the EV industry are doing it themselves. With the advent of autonomous transport there will be a transition away from private transport, as well as rail/bus/other transport, to cheap and convenient autonomous point-to-point ride sharing. This will cause far greater disruption than Uber type services have already made. Such autonomous services make the most money the more they are on the road and will strive to operate 24/7. Without the requisite large scale and pervasive ultra-fast charging network in place, operators will choose to use ICE/hybrid vehicles rather than electric vehicles. This is already clear from the vehicles being used in trials and the orders already placed. The best thing to do to prevent this is to establish the electric vehicle fleets and ultra-fast charging infrastructure ASAP. Unfortunately, the best vehicle to do this with are currently Tesla vehicles. Why unfortunately? Idiotic as it is, Tesla deliberately obstructs their vehicles from being used as taxis or ride sharing due to their ban on them using the Supercharger network or full speed charging. i.e. Tesla is obstructing the transition to electric passenger services… Read more »

In Holland, Tesla X are used as taxis.

The issue is competing with the likes of Uber, and then with the likes of autonomous Uber.

The EV threat to the ICE has been around quite awhile. The theory is sound: replace an engine with complex moving parts with an engine that only has one moving part. It was only a matter of time till ev technology caught up. At this point it becomes simple economics. Once you get through the pain of developing your production technology and your supplies the ev can be produced significantly more cheaply than an ice. I’d say one battery range gets up to 800 to 1000 miles (about the most anyone is willing to drive in a day) the true death nell of the ice will sound. The ev will push the ice to a niche market because the ev will be more profitable, and in the free market system , sooner or later, profitability always wins out.

“I’d say one battery range gets up to 800 to 1000 miles (about the most anyone is willing to drive in a day)”.

Nobody needs that much range to go all electric. 200 to 400 miles is plenty.

Personally, I gotta stop at least every 200 miles. Not because of the car, because of the humans.

When someone raises the argument that they can’t drive cross-country, ask them the last time they drove cross-country. Mostly never in my experience. It’s just some extra FUD to discourage EV adoption.

The delicious irony is anything big oil does to keep oul demand and prices up will hasten the takeover of BEVs for transportation.

if big oil wanted to shut down ev sales why don’t they just buy the lithium suppliers and shutter them, or start buying up all the ev charging networks and shuttering them, make it impossible for ev owners to charge their cars anywhere except at home. They still have money for now.

Because some of the companies in the EV business have already bought their LI supply needs.
And it’s a big bill for companies seeing lower profits.
If there were going to invest, they would be putting 51% of CAPEX into Wind, Solar and Battery Now.

Lithium is too common for them to buy it all out. If anything, them buying out lithium would result in MORE lithium production. (As miner see more demand, they will open up more mines)

I disagree with subsidies in the longer term, but in the short term their value is to kick start industries. And in the case of EV cars, I think such has already happened, if to different degrees around the globe. If that’s true, it’s like the genie is now out of the bottle. Their success will depend not on any hard to justify long term subsidy, but on the historic subsidies having enabled manufacturers to reach economies of scale that will increasingly mean EVs simply don’t need subsidies to be competitive. Removing subsidies may slow the pace down, but the end will be the same. It doesn’t surprise me that established manufacturers have been slow to embrace the technology – people tend to hate change when they don’t see any need for it. Arguably thanks mainly to Tesla, the other large manufacturers are beginning to realise that the status quo is not an option – and to realise that people are starting to think that an electric car isn’t something being forced on them….. but in many ways a step forward. Smooth acceleration, less noise, most charging at home, less maintenance…… The key now is how quickly battery prices come… Read more »

Yes, I know I can’t completely avoid fossil fuels. I’m happy to reduce as much as I can, let’s say we reduce 25% of total fossil fuels consumption, maybe lower the chance of a few wars, that’s pretty good in my book.

If we don’t do anything now, the conflict for natural resource is going to get worst, not better.

“Yes, I know I can’t completely avoid fossil fuels.” You have hit on an important point. One reason people won’t make the leap is they can’t conceive of a lifestyle free of burning fossil fuel without sacrifice. I have witnessed it through my own journeys then later with others that there is a point where that changes. For those who have offset their home energy usage with solar as well as their transportation needs with an EV, they begin to see the possibilities, though still unclear of how it all can be done. And when their lawn mower, weed eater, chainsaw, hedge trimmer, etc. are driven by a common battery, they start to sense that we are one energy storage device away from knocking on the door of eliminating fossil fuel burning. Now that we see battery gigafactories emerge, the cost reduction formula has begun to emerge. Over the past 40 years every time solar doubled in production, the price has fallen 26%. Now the math is evolving for batteries that every time it doubles in production it is falling 18%. Like renewables themselves, storage will be available at utility levels as well as individuals which is a paradigm shift… Read more »

“…oil scarcity is no longer a concern.”

Well, that bit of wishful-thinking pravduh should — and from this report, obviously has — convinced a lot of people who fail to exercise critical thinking.

But hey! Tesla, along with Rivian, Byton, Bollinger, Workhorse, and a few other EV startups, want to make that actually come true! They would love to see a world in which there is no demand for burning petroleum products to fuel transportation.

China will probably determine the global fate of EVs more than the U.S. or Europe, and I don’t think they’re going to do away with them. Big oil and legacy automakers may win in the short run in certain places, but market forces and advances in technology will leave them in the dust eventually, probably within a decade, if they continue to resist. EVs are already competitive with lithium ion batteries; imagine what they will do once the next battery breakthrough gets here.
We may lose some battles but we will win the war.

China has some reasons to fend off oil dependence which are rarely discussed, and they don’t make the USA look good. In fact, US military and political strategy for many years now has planned to intimidate and blackmail other countries by controlling their access to oil. This was blatantly displayed by the Bush Junior Administration and the prior acts of its real mastermind, Dick Cheney. In the late ’90s he simultaneously headed oil services giant Halliburton, the American Petroleum Institute, and the Project For A New American Century, a highbrow propaganda cult whose papers reveal the agenda he would impose on his dopey boss when he became Vice President. You’ll have to do the research yourself, but the papers he used to influence Congressmen argued that the US must destroy any country that tries to challenge its monopoly on power. Not “violently challenge.” No, even building one’s own economy and civilian technology would be unacceptable. No mention of whether the rival was a democracy or a dictatorship; they did not care. Their papers also made clear that he wasn’t trying to ensure cheap oil for Americans; the word his henchmen used was “access”. We would punish any country that refused… Read more »

The Big Oil is very scared, they need to join the new instead to fight for the old. Renewables and EVs are here to stay. In 2-3 years 300 to 500 miles will become average range and the trend is upgoing while the cost of production is downgoing. THIS IS WHY THEY ARE SCARED. In this dynamic market you either adapt or you stay out of business.

A fight on the deathbed.

I laugh to myself every time I drive past a gas station in my Volt…

Regarding Leilani Münter’s Facebook pic: “Thank you, Tesla, for 14,794 oil-free miles”.

That motherload of a bumper (right behind the lady) along with all other plastic and rubber parts, the paint and the interior are not made from angels’ breath. And neither are all the solvents, detergents, surface treatments etc, used in every stage of manufacturing.

Until most consumer products and industrial commodities, currently derived from fossil hydrocarbons, can be replaced with their renewable equivalents, and until useable non-fossil tech is available for aerospace purposes, we WILL have a petrochemical industry.

Perhaps Mr. Musk’s next project could be electric space launcher.

“Perhaps Mr. Musk’s next project could be electric space launcher.”
I wouldn’t put that past him.

As already stated, petrochemical products will be used for a long time. It is the burning of fossil fuels that is the issue.

The government isn’t trying to ‘kill’ EV’s. I don’t see any government agency imposing prohibitive regulations on EV makers. The consumer will always be free to choose. The federal government (taxpayers) should never have been subsidizing EV’s in the U.S. Since they have been, it is only fair to those who haven’t reached that 200,000 ‘electrified’ vehicle plateau be allowed the same advantage Tesla was allowed. If states with a state income tax and an air pollution problem want to subsidize EV’s, it’s their call.

Unlike in China and India and a few other countries, the air in the U.S. is relatively clean. There is no need for such strict federal fuel economy standards. The number of EV’s will grow as more are introduced to the market and the transportation industry will phase out diesel engines as they convert to natural gas engines, hydrogen fuel cells, and batteries to propel larger vehicles.

If I were President I would promote and subsidize bio-diesel, specifically with the goal of absorbing excesses in soybean inventories. That would be a clever move in the game of global trade adjustment. Unfortunately for the USA, I am smarter than Donald Trump, nor is he famous as a humble man, or a listener.

I don’t care if big oil is fighting the electric auto business, after all, the opposite is true also. I’m also no fan of govt subsidies. Henry Ford and other innovators didn’t need subsidies because they had products people wanted at prices they could afford. Apparently, Tesla and the ilk can’t say that, can’t make a profit on their own and need to be cut loose from dependence on my tax money. I’m sure the time will come when E/V’s will be in demand and affordable and reliable, but forcing it on us too early is not the way to go.

The country that goes too early is the one that rules the next age.
That’s why the US “forced” railroads on the land by handing over public lands for the railroad tycoons to sell. That’s why Jefferson made the Louisiana Purchase without consulting with Congress whether he should use tax money to multiply the country’s land area.
New paradigms usually triumph when old empires look the other way, and new empires blow right past them. Britain was wedded to coal for too long, and America overwhelmed its incumbent power. Of course one needs leaders with the wisdom to judge what the new paradigm is. It seems to happen, though.

As a fellow fiscal conservative let’s look into where the real tax subsidies go. All tax dollars that go toward discovering new oil deposits is a subsidy. All oil spills paid for by states or governments are a subsidy. All medical expenses both paid privately and by Medicare are a HUGE subsidy. All military expense provided to protect cheap oil on foreign soil is a subsidy. Check out how much we spend on policing the Suez canal and we hardly use that oil anymore, but Shell sells it to China and Shell pays lobbyists to make sure we still pay. That spending alone will dwarf ALL Ev subsidies you speak of let alone just Tesla. Half of the renewable budget goes toward biofuels, primarily ethanol. Used to be a time when gasoline got its octane from lead but we found out that was killing us too. You can keep the ethanol subsidy on the oil side. If you argue it is on the renewable side as the government currently does, then let me cast my vote as the first renewable subsidy to be eliminated. There is a place for algae-based biofuels and methane extracts from sewage. Unfortunately, ethanol from corn… Read more »

The foil that fuel standards should be relaxed because American-produced oil is more plentiful is a classic bit of propaganda. Fuel standards exist to mitigate the effects of gasoline powered vehicles on air quality, not as a response to domestic fuel availability. In any event, this horse is already out of the barn, and the smart money in Big Oil knows it. They are down to delaying the future of mass EV adoption, but they won’t be able to stop it. Tesla wasn’t supposed to ever achieve what it has achieved, but now it is changing the entire conversation. Tic-toc….