Automakers Remind Trump Administration That “Climate Change Is Real”

MAY 25 2018 BY WADE MALONE 158

The Alliance of Automobile Manufactures urges the administration to continue increased efficiency gains and cooperate with California.

The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers wrote to the White House Office of Management earlier this month with the hope of reigning in the administration on efficiency standards. David Schweitert, executive vice president of federal government relations at the Auto Alliance wrote:

Automakers remain committed to increasing fuel efficiency requirements, which yield everyday fuel savings for consumers while also reducing emissions — because climate change is real and we have a continuing role in reducing greenhouse gases and improving fuel efficiency.

Related: How To Maintain One National Program

The Auto Alliance also reinforced their goal of achieving a Single National Standard. Under the agreement set in motion by the Obama administration, any vehicle that is compliant with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is also compliant in California and other states adhering to the California Air Resource Board (CARB) standards.

However, automakers have pointed to discrepancies between the policies of the EPA and NHTSA. In particular, efficiency credits work very differently in each agency and expire at different timelines.

Read This: Fuel Economy Penalties Won’t Increase until 2019

In a recent comment to the EPA, Nissan lamented that “under the current CAFE credit transfer limit, the same OEM fleet could be in compliance with GHG requirements but not with CAFE.”

But rather than harmonize the existing rules, the Trump administration has threatened to significantly weaken them. According to Bloomberg, the NHTSA is reportedly considering a freeze of all future efficiency increases past 2020.

California and other CARB states will not stand for this and plan to go ahead with the tougher rules, fighting the administration in court if necessary. Should that happen, the auto industry would again be facing three competing, contradictory standards. This means the One National Program would be effectively dead. Schwietert explains:

Operating under two or three sets of regulations would be inefficient and disrupt a period of rapid innovation in the auto industry.

To keep California on board, the Auto Alliance suggests continuing annual efficiency increases, issuing stronger incentives for electric and autonomous vehicle production, extending the efficiency standards past the year 2025, and harmonizing the efficiency credit systems between the NHTSA and EPA.

Source: Bloomberg

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158 Comments on "Automakers Remind Trump Administration That “Climate Change Is Real”"

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So what does that mean? The Auto Alliance wanted the EPA and NHTSA standards to align, but Scott Pruitt took it to mean that they wanted the CAFE requirements weakened? Is that what they’re trying to clarify? It sure does sound like they’re back-tracking since they now see what an ugly monster they’ve let loose.

“they now see what an ugly monster they’ve let loose” No kidding.

The changes requested by (most) automakers are consistent with the changes requested of the EPA/NHTSA under the Obama administration in June 2016. You can see the NHTSA’s response to automaker requests here: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2016-12-28/pdf/2016-31140.pdf

But if you make a request of the Obama administration, you’re going to get push back but also some concessions in order to maintain the status quo.

Make the same request of the Trump administration and you’ll likely be pushed off the side of a cliff in the interests of the oil industry rather than the automotive industry or consumers. California and the administration have begun talks, however so it seems automakers have at least gotten through to the administration on this point.

Initially California was completely left out of the equation. So hopefully the two can come to an agreement, but I encourage California to not bend on the CAFE or EPA emission rules themselves. Any changes should only encourage efficiency improvements.

I hope they don’t come to an agreement at all. The automakers can just build to CA’s standards or forgo selling in a good third of the country. If they try to pull CA’s waiver it probably goes down in flames in court.

I would prefer they come to an agreement that keeps current standards in tact and any changes only encourage higher efficiency (NHTSA CAFE) and emission (EPA GHG) standards.

But if the administration will not work with them, California needs to go it’s own way. California’s waivers will almost certainly be preserved in court.

Initially California was completely left out of the equation. So hopefully the two can come to an agreement, but I encourage California to not bend on the CAFE or EPA emission rules themselves. Any changes should only encourage efficiency improvements.

CA wasn’t so much left out as Pruitt has made it clear that he essentially plans to tell CARB that they have no ability to regulate in this area, despite ample evidence to the contrary that is guaranteed to show up in court. Also, CARB already did offer to relax the standards a little through 2025 in exchange for pushing the national standards out through 2030.

You have it right; it’s all about fossil fuel company profits and backroom campaign money deals, i.e., agreeing to prop up the fuels market in exchange for election funding from the fossil fuel companies. It’s called influence peddling and used to be called bribing

This action by the AAM, the car lobbyists, is in contrast to the deals Trump and the Republicans have with the American Petroleum Institute, the oil lobbyists; we will see who wins the right to bribe the President and the Republicans.

“it’s all about fossil fuel company profits and backroom campaign money deals, ”

No it is not. You left out the payoffs for the Rosneft sale which were a bribe for the repeal of US sanctions. Thanks to Mueller Putin’s minions aren’t able to do that yet these corrupt traitors have refused to implement the additional sanctions congress passed.

Agree; they are the architects of their own misfortune should the EPA depart from CAFE.

Climate change is fake news, it’s made up by the Chinese to destroy America.

/sarcasm tag applies I hope? lol

China itself doesn’t actually exist, it’s just a nice story to make people stop shopping at Walmart.

China is on the other side of Earth. But the same climate change denials believe in flat earth, so China cannot exist – according to their alternate belief system.

Ah, but China has a wall to keep out the bad climate. I saw it in a movie…

And who do you think holds the greatest amount of American Debt?

If they really wanted to destroy America, they could just “Call Their Debts!” It would be like your Bank telling you that you have 7 days to pay off your Mortgage, or you will be evicted!

No need to create a Story Line, and convince a Failed Presidential Candidate to Pedal your story!

How would China “call their debts”? How would they “evict” the US? You seem to have a warped understanding of bond markets. The worst they can do is dump their treasury holdings. China would just take a huge loss on those holdings. It’s not going to force the US to pay up anything. It might disrupt the market enough to prevent future borrowing, but 90% of US treasuries are sold to Americans. The disruption caused would be much smaller in the US than the effect it would have on Chinese balance sheets.

in fact, CHina buys those bonds, because otherwise, they would have MASSIVE inflation. I mean above 100%. That is what happens when you do not have 2 way trade.
If trump was not such an IDIOT, he would push to balance the budget. Once that happens, and we are no longer selling bonds, then china would be forced to do 1 of several thing:
1) accept massive inflation. American export is a huge % of their current GDP.
2) quit manipulating their money downwards. IOW, everything will get expensive for exports, though imports would become cheap.
3) watch their own money blow up, not the dollar.

America does not have the stomach to deal with a balanced budget. They been getting their ice cream for a long time, and can’t do without.

Any politician with the balls to balance the budget, would be hated by almost everyone.

In FY 2017 the federal deficit was $665 billion.

As much as the spend on the military!!!

Try to eliminate that deficit!

Such a retarded analogy. Federal budgets are nothing like eating ice cream. Anybody with a pension or 401(k) owns treasuries indirectly. The reason you can save for your retirement today and expect a larger amount tomorrow is because someone else needs the money today and is deferring the payment for it. If nobody ran a deficit, your interest rates and stock market returns would be zero. We would also never be able to deploy people’s saved capital to build a bridge or a school.

I could kill that quickly. However, I would worry about the economy.
Instead, I would follow clintons lead and drop it each year, with budget cuts combined with tax increases.

So it is easy: spend the same on the military as others do and do not fight wars you have no budget to fight.

give me a break. We spend less on the military than China or Russia does. The problem is that you look at it from TOTAL $, while disregarding the fact that China actually tells citizens what they WILL be paid to work on projects (yes, china remains a partial command economy all related to their military).

In the first half of fiscal year 2018 the budget deficit is $598 billion. Middle East terrorist costing trillions, but GOP has no problem cutting taxes for corpoations and rich. Middle class and poor will use any tax cut to pay more at the pump. Vote out the swamp Trump and the GOP that enable him.

They can call in their debts by cashing in their considerable holdings of US bonds early.

And if the USA can’t pay, they’ll gladly take California in trade. Maybe Alaska too.

ROFL.
You fools on the far left have absolutely NO IDEA about money. Do you?
You are not much different than Trump.

upvoted for truth

Actually, they’re already starting to do the worse that they can do: pay for oil in yuan.

“The worst they can do is dump their treasury holdings.”

No that is not the worst they could do. Securities have maturity dates so you are correct in that they aren’t going to call in their loans.

“It might disrupt the market enough to prevent future borrowing”

Do you realize what that would mean for the American economy??? I don’t think they could actually prevent future borrowing but they could easily induce The US to pay higher rates which would likely trigger inflationary pressure which would put the US economy in a tail spin.

It would be painful for both economies but the American people have no stomach for pain and the Chinese people have no choice. It would be no contest as to who would tap out first.

“90% of US treasuries are sold to Americans”

I don’t believe that is close to being true anymore. The Chinese and Japanese governments alone hold a bit over 10% of our debt while US government entities hold a little over 30%.

lol.
wow.
Not only is the far right loaded with idiots, but the far left has so many as well.

Windbourne, if you go far enough in either direction, they end up looking and talking the same.
Loony Left: Big-pharma is giving our kids autism. So, I’m going to stop taking vaccines, go off grid and install solar panels on my bunker.
Loony Right: Big-government is planning to take my guns. So, I’m going to stop taking vaccines, go off grid and install solar panels on my bunker.

Far right installing pv? Yeah, right! Don’t you know it’s against their religion?

Extreme loonies like you DO think of technology as a religion. The reality is very different.

Utah, Nevada, and Arizona all have higher per capita solar power installed capacity than California does.
Or maybe you want to look at the rankings in wind power, where Texas has more than the rest of the country combined.

Exactly, what religion are you talking about?

Oh, cry me a f-ing river! Of course they have bigger per capita cause they have way less people. Many of their projects are actually serving Cali…without Cali’s push NV and AZ would still be in the dust.
The religion i talk about is that where you suck up all the bs from your respective party even if against your own interests. I’m sure you are familiar with that.

Actually Nevada has more per capita only because California signed PPAs for that electricity. In essence CA is renting Space in Nevada. This is not unusual. The Navajo Generating Station, San Juan GS, and Inter mountain GS (coal plants in AZ, NM, and UT respectively) are all financially dependent upon contracts with CA. All three will shuttter shortly after CA cuts off the money.

Nevada has surprisingly little rooftop solar.

bingo!

I wish that CA would quit buying from Navajo power plant. That is by far the dirtiest plant in western American. It accounts for the bulk of pollution in the Rocky Mountain Park (just ahead of California AND interestingly, CHINA; Yes, China’s pollution is #3 for Rocky mountain park, ahead of Washington and Oregon).

“Extreme loonies like you DO think of technology as a religion. The reality is very different.”

Religion – a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

The religion that is saving Coal’s jobs while losing solar energy’s job.

False. Plenty on the far right install PVs, esp. when they are in survival camps.

Lol…ok, you got me!

It’s not. Only religion here is a mirage one. Sponsored by big oil.

Very well said mate CONNECT THE DOTS ON CLEAN AIR WAKE UP FOLKS

Except there is no “far left” in America. None. You have “insane far right” and “right-wing lite, now with 15% less religion and capitalism!”.

Show me your revolutionary minded Capital-C Communists and then we’ll talk about your far left.

Posters from America is LOADED with plenty from the both the far left and the far right.
I would argue that the majority of us want nothing to do with either extreme.
Sadly, it is ppl like you that think of yourself as being centrist, when you are obviously far left.

Except there are no insane people in America. None. Show me people who are brain eating, capital C cannibal serial killers like Hannibal Lecter and then we will talk about mental illness.

hmmm.
Many would argue that Trump fits that.

He does fit insane selfishness.
He is so full of himself, no wonder he can not close his suit.
And that may lead to many illness.

no far left? Turn on MSNBC or CNN. Far left all the time. Look at all the idiots who supported Bernie. Look at all the idiots voting for Socialists on the Far Left Coast.

There are more on the far left than on the far right.

Your statement is meaningless due to the absence of any means of defining ¨center¨, ¨far left¨ or ¨far right.¨ Who are you using as your basis for saying who is normal? The entire point of the right-wing propaganda machine was to move the political spectrum ON ECONOMIC ISSUES far to the right of where it was in the New Deal era. Recall Dwight Eisenhower´s famous letter to his brother where he said that attacks on Social Security and the other New Deal programs only came from an extremist fringe, ¨a few Texas billionaires¨, who would soon disappear. Yet now Paul Ryan is an Ayn Rand fanatic who therefore must consider the New Deal to be Communism. Yet he´s considered too moderate by many in the political party of Dwight Eisenhower. (Some of them attack Abraham Lincoln as a tyrant too, unimaginable before 1980.) His party is now full of people who attack the minimum wage, Republican Teddy Roosevelt´s stand on progressive income taxes, even the very concept that such a thing as public goods have a right to exist. Thus America´s economic ideology is pulled to the right of where it was in FDR´s time, given that he had the… Read more »

thankfully, there is a growing movement towards a new true centrist party. A number of GOP and Dems are getting upset with the extremists that have taken over.
I am hoping that before the end of summer a NEW TRUE-Centrist party will come forth. Ideally, it would be strong fiscal conservative (i.e. balanced budget over tax cuts ), social moderate, wants to quit invading nation, once we do, we rebuild those nations, will focus on helping our nation such as really restarting our space program by killing the SLS, maybe orion, while pushing commercial space; that kind of centrist.

Uh, while there are plenty on the far left, I would say that the far right is overwhelming the left and far left. Those of us in the centrist can see what you folks are doing, just like watching the moral majority, of which they were neither.

What part about his comment on debt owed to China makes him “far left”? He might be uninformed but I don’t see how that comment correlates with his ideas about role of government in society.

when you buy bonds, you do not ‘call them in’. Bonds are a promise to pay in the future and you do not get paid just by saying that you want money.

And this idea of us giving CHina Alaska, or CA, or anything like that is a JOKE, esp. since China is not even the largest owner of debt. Nations like Japan is. China is in the process of slowly selling off. Fine.

Let the Chinese call in those debts and see what happens. China themselves have a monstrous debt, that will also be unwound by that, and they know it.

So China is certainly in no position to call the shots, unless they want to shoot themselves in the foot.

Yeah right. And if debt is such a big deal why has Trump just jumped it up enormously by giving tax breaks to the rich, and adding more to it, with the seal of approval of the Republican party?
It’s a ridiculous, specious argument, that holds no water whatsoever.

since the tax cuts to the people who pay federal income tax, you know the bottom ~50% pay _no_ federal income tax, of course they go to the “rich”. And with the tax cuts, the government took in record tax revenue. https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/feds-collect-record-taxes-first-month-under-tax-cut-run-surplus

So as others said above, leftists have zero understanding of economics.

That is such an INSANE tax cut.
We desperately need to roll that back.

That’s funny. Who is in worse shape the debtor or the debtee? If I do not repay my loan, I am out nothing, but the bank is out the value of the loan. It’s called a death hug. Both counties would lose.

There is an old saying.
If I owe you $100,000, I am in trouble.
OTOH, if I owe you 100,000,000, then YOU are in trouble.

Stop that stupid claims.

The biggest debt holder of American debts are AMERICANS.

China is only the largest “foreign” debt holder and that is a small % of the overall debt. So, stop that stupid spin. Fake news travel fast on the internet and has staying power for sure.

China is building coal plants like mad — because they’re “on-board” with global warming???

“Overall, 1,600 coal plants are planned or under construction in 62 countries, said Urgewald, which uses data from the Global Coal Plant Tracker portal. The new plants would expand the world’s coal-fired power capacity by 43 per cent.”
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/chinese-firms-to-build-700-coal-plants

/you couldn’t make this stuff up if you tried

Then there’s going to be some serious BANKRUPTCY issues going forward, as most of the world now knows that Gas Plants are cheaper, and Solar & Storage and Wind & Storage are cheaper than gas.

Those plants may be “planned” but they will never be built.

Also, China is building some new high-efficiency coal plants, and shutting down lots of old inefficient plants, and building out solar and wind faster than any other nation on earth.

My guess is 90% of “planned” coal, if not 99%, will never be built. Unless your goal is to lose money in energy markets.

The last coal fired power station will be closed in the UK by the year 2025 which is fantastic news.
I grew up in a cotton mill town with belching black factory chimneys in the late 50’s/1960’s,The air was disgusting to breath, I never thought I’d see the end of coal in my lifetime.

And yet we are used to breathing all the car exhaust in our cities, and I hardly ever hear a complaint about that.

We had the same issues in America back in the 60s. Then the environmental movement had started in the 50s but had not really taken hold until the 60s.
While China and India have LOADS of horrible air, the west was similar back in the 50s/60s. Just on a MUCH MUCH smaller scale. And the real difference is that once we knew things were bad, we stopped it. China continues it regardless.

I will say that I look forward to around 2030. By then, America will have most of our coal plants closed.

MX, wrong.

ALL of the currently planned coal plants by china will be built. China has 700 new coal plants UNDER CONSTRUCTION AT THIS MOMENT. Yes, they stopped 100 of them. However, their long-term plans is to increase from 1T of coal to 1.75 TW of coal by 2030.
And that is just in China. That does not include the massive build up of new coal plants that they are doing around the globe.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/business/china-davos-climate-change.html
Notice that China has 355 under active construction (and that does not include the other 350+ around the globe), along with another 435 in pre-construction, but about to start in the next year or so.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I8GeKEfxPpwkQ_t0GQZx1GQm6MASclEtEtrQX3Y1nNc/edit#gid=0
Those will NOT be stopped. All of them will almost certainly continue.
Most of these are NOT replacements (though some are), but most will be used to power EVs so that China can quit importing oil, and gas products.

BTW, China is creating their own future problems. This is going to be a BIGGIE for them:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/as-co2-levels-rise-rice-becomes-less-nutritious/

John Mathews acknowledges your statistics and explains why they are irrelevant in the long run:

https://apjjf.org/2018/09/Mathews.html

Richard, Did you even READ that article? That guy does not have a clue, and if anything, that article’s data shows the exact opposite of what you and he believe and backs me up. Ok, For example, look at graph 1. The lines look nice and appear to make WWS look great. Ok. No issues. EXCEPT, that it shows INCREASE IN GENERATION. So, once you add WWS, you are going to use that preferentially (it is free at that point), over coal. So, they are currently adding lot more WWS each year, so the lines go up. However, it does not say that they are NOT adding lots more coal plants. In fact, coal plants are increasingly restricted to how much electricity they can contribute, while at the same time, a great deal more capacity is being added. Next. Before looking at Graph 2, look at Graph 4. This is Germany’s Data. Note that Germany, unlike America and the rest of Europe, Germany’s CO2 emissions has NOT really been coming down. They are coming under fire for NOT doing enough on this as well. So comparing China to Germany is a joke. Far better would have been UK. BUT, lets… Read more »

Solar + Storage is no where remotely cheaper than gas. Where do you come up with such fantasies?

Yep, storage is still too expensive….for now.

However, the last thing you want to do is base ANY economy on Wind/Solar/Storage solely. It can and should be part of the energy matrix, but should be limited to around 25-33%. No more.

B firicking S! There’s room for much higher. We will get there faster than you expect.

“They will go online next decade” means they will be shutdown after completion. China is building them, but, they will never operate.
This is a global Scam.

Coal plants are very expensive, plus all the money they invested in coal mines abroad (Australia, U.S. etc) also very expensive.

When the plants are built, they will run their 40-ish year cycle ….

/you’re guess is one thing, their money is another — as always, follow the money

Tell that to the plants that get replaced in US every year before the term.

All he had to say beyond “built” was “placed into rate base, or publicly owned”. Decisions can always go the other way (for the environment), but lots of power generation keeps going irrespective of cost, merely because its “paid for”.

ALL OF THE coal plants that have been shutdown in America were built in the 80s and before.
There are a number that will be shut down on only 30 years, but, that is due to straight economics. Nat gas, AE, and HOPEFULLY, Nukes will replace that.

Nukes won’t replace natural gas unless a carbon tax is enacted.

If anything, we will see fewer Nukes without a carbon tax in the coming years, as the existing ones die of old age or become noncompetitive with natural gas and wind.

50% of nuclear plants in the US are currently losing money. How much longer will this continue? Not long in my opinion. Nuclear needs a carbon tax asap

How will a C tax help them against solar and wind?

Nuclear simply needs less regulation. Carbon taxes are stupid, like all taxes

Less?! Are you fricking kidding me?! With nuclear you better get it right, you only have to mess up onece and that’s it!

spot on.
I support nukes, but I want decent regs on them.

Less regulation?
I back nuclear, and I will say that the last thing that I want to see is LESS regulations. Cleaned up a bit, but less? HECK NO.

We do need changes in the industry, such as gov support, similar to what solar/wind has. And we need to quit trying to build out these massive 1GW plants. THOSE are uneconomical. Instead we need a SMRs, ideally ranging from 50-250 MW.
In addition, we need new reactors that can ‘burn’ nuclear ‘waste’.
But less regs?
NOT A F’ing CHANCE.
The last thing I want is fukishema, or Chernobyl.

It’s name Fukushima, but no one there care how it is spell anymore.
It’s call an on going disaster.

baloney. Only a few plants are losing money. Nearly all are profitable.

The problem in America has been the far left idiots that continue to fight against nukes.

Which is why I continue to write perry and BEG him to seperate coal from nukes.

And with that said, NuScale will have their ready in 2-3 years. First 1 is planned for Idaho. Little 50 MWe, which is ideal for replacing old coal plants that are in towns/cities.

You are ruling out the possibility of stranded assets. By 2020, solar plus storage will be installed for a single year operational cost of fossil fuel. It has already begun for nuclear. See Savannah River Nuclear Plant closing in South Carolina. Even after billions were invested, they shut the plant construction down in the middle of the project solely based on cost. Let this happen a couple of times with coal and gas. Watch investors run for the exits.

2025

Chinese gov will not allow stranded assest. We do in the west, but china will not. They are building up to 1.75 TW of coal (more than what is in China and the west COMBINED TODAY) and will run those until 2050 or so.
The ONLY way to shut this down is if the west, who imports more than 1/2 of China’s GDP, will start raising incremental taxes on goods based on where the worse part comes from. Need monitoring by satellites along with normalization by emissions / $ GDP (this is what makes businesses change behaviors).

Can I ask assumptions? New natural gas can bid in at ~$2x/MWh. Paid down NG is getting down, atop hydro ($1x/MWh). Paid down nukes can typically beat $3x/MWh (O&M). So, existing ones are closing for reasons having nothing to do with “new” cost. The CO2 consequences are horrific. The Xcel bids (I’m assuming you may be referring to) suggest ~$35/MWh, for PV and Wind, plus storage, but: -They are in the future -The amount of storage isn’t specified. Appreciate that when you’re (PV-batt) Kauai, all you need is a ~4 hour load shift, for the people whose homes mostly have roof-top, anyway. You don’t need to send most of your ~13MW of solar out of the utility, at peak, for this reason. You are also in a temperate zone, close to the equator and do not need seasonal storage. You take the PV, fill the batteries, and then give Mom and Pop some lights, laundry, etc., at 7PM. Done. None of us should run with assumptions that conventional power is so threatened, as most of the US is less favorably positioned (sun/wind), is colder, and batteries as baseload (or seasonal winter storage) are prohibitively expensive when multiple hours, thus multiple… Read more »

who is investing money into US Coal mines?

Wrong. China HAS stopped some that were permitted and a few that had just started construction.
However, NONE that were running just 3 years ago, have been stopped. All continue OR were replaced by newer, bigger plants that burn more coal.
The global scam is the fact that China continues to build not just in America, but all around the globe.

Now go look at their solar capacity and how many times over tnat will expand over the next years. Their green energy % is increasing every year.

They are building out more coal, than wind/solar COMBINED.
By 2030, china expects to have 1.75 TW of coal. That is 1.75 POSSIBLE TW of coal plants.
OTOH, How much solar/wind will they have? Yes, they MIGHT have 1TW of capacity, but both run under 20%. That means that at best, they will do 200 GW of electricity. VS 1750 GW from coal plants.

They are closing the really inefficient coal fired plants that also emit less particulate matter. So even if electricity generation from coal is increasing, their coal consumption is on the downward trend. Also, expect coal to account for smaller and smaller proportion of their electricity mix going forward.

China accounted for 50% of ALL solar installations last year. That gives you an indication of their commitment to renewable energy, or perhaps their commitment to lead in green technology. Either way, they’re doing the right thing.

No. Adding solar/wind does very little, when you are adding far more coal EACH YEAR.
They are NOT simply replacing old coal plants. For 2015/2016, coal consumption flat-lined. That is a fact. However, their economy ALSO tanked. Now, it is coming back and coal consumption jumped back up.
As long as they continue to ADD NEW coal plants, and not simply replace old ones, AND they continue to add very little wind/solar (relative to amount of coal being added, it IS little), then things will continue to get worse.

“GOA, India: Thermal coal demand will outpace supply in 2018, leading to a strong market driven by rising demand from top buyers India and China, the chief coal analyst at Noble Resources said on Tuesday.

Coal demand this year will increase by 48 million tonnes, or 5 percent higher than 2017, to 974 million tonnes, said Rodrigo Echeverri, the head of hard commodities research at Noble, at the Coaltrans India conference in Goa. However, supply this year will only expand by 38 million tonnes.”

https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/coal/global-thermal-coal-demand-will-outpace-supply-in-2018-noble-analyst/62900140

/appears to me: ‘they’ drove the market down, bought up all they could, .. and now it’s back to full steam ahead

You’re living in a dream world of your own construction and others of similar ilk.
Yeah, we will still be using coal to generate electricity, but less and less. The trend line has been falling for decades and has recently accelerated, and will continue to do so.

… and yet, coal price has been rising aggressively over the last 2 years. Or did I dream that up?

Coal price can change on a dime based on decisions made by the Chinese central government regarding quotas for mining or importing.

China did not drive the market down. Their economy DIED for a bit of time. They had a MAJOR collapse in 2015/6. The chinese gov, like always, tried to cover up.

They have a huge need for new capacity. They are scaling back some of these coal plant plans, though, and pushing harder than anyone on renewable generation and EVs.

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2017/10/11/china-halts-150-coal-fired-power-plants/

They also have more high speed rail track than anyone else on the face of the planet. And they accomplished it in the last 10 years! The one high speed rail project here in the US only started construction (such as it is) a year ago and is constantly being delayed by haters, NIMBYs and the Koch’s.

“Why Is Asia Returning to Coal?
The fossil fuel is undergoing an unexpected renaissance in the region.”
https://thediplomat.com/2017/02/why-is-asia-returning-to-coal/

But it’s clean coal. So that’s ok …. RIGHT?

Even on an hypothetical 100% coal grid, an EV is cleaner than an ICE.

Umm, no it is not! Most analyses require the grid to at least be 30% renewable before you can even break even.

The good news is that India only uses 57% coal and China’s is at 70% and both are falling.

Why Coal Will Keep Burning
MARCH 29, 2018

https://www.bcg.com/en-us/publications/2018/why-coal-will-keep-burning.aspx

You can take what you want from this article. But there are about a bazillion people waiting to get “on the grid” — (and probably charge their electric cars) — don’t count coal (still the cheapest option for most) out anytime soon.

You’re looking at old data. They had fallen to 60% last I checked.

No gasbag and Dan, both of you are mixing things up.
For example, coal accounts for ~60% of China’s ENERGY, but ~73% of China’s electricity. And BOTH coal-based energy/electricity grew in 2017, as China’s economy was coming back.

actually, it is NOT. In fact, multiple studies have shown that pure coal is a disaster even compared to ICE.

This is true. But people vote based on what they WISH was true instead of what IS true.

And that article is loaded with lies.

here is a spreadsheet from coal swarm, that your author appears to reference.
And this is a CURRENT spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I8GeKEfxPpwkQ_t0GQZx1GQm6MASclEtEtrQX3Y1nNc/edit#gid=0

Why is he modded down?
CHina has 700 new coal plants in construction with most of these in china.
Sadly, even the BEST coal plant that they have will produce 2x the emissions of an old nat gas plant.
Even last year, China’s coal and co2 emissions continue to rise.
Since China/Chinese refuse to drop their emissions, things are only going to get worse, not better.

Windbourne, Read the link your information is wrong.

which link? If you are saying the guardian one where it claims that plants are actually units, then no. That is NOT the case.

Fake news rules the world, because people like sensationalism, especially if it supports their beliefs.

Thanks for the link. Good article.

Last year’s data…
“construction was taking place at 300 plants globally. Of those, 183 were new power stations and 117 extensions of existing plants.” The Guardian

Lets face it we have a moron for a president.

The understatement of the century.

He is a stable genius, we are the idiots and hence fail to understand him.
S/

yeah, but inspite of him, so far economics has worked against him and continues to kill off coal plants.
The good news is that ICE car sales in America, and I hope in the west, are dropping, though they continue to pick up in CHina. OTOH, Tesla continues to sell everything they produce.
What this means is that over the next couple of years, we will see ICE sales in America pretty much come to a stop, and be replaced by EVs only.

I support Trump as President because of most of his policies, but have problems with his character. Sure, I prefer he supports a “greener” industry/economy/etc., but I think the economics of “green” is starting to take over anyway.

Trump any day over Hillary.

They day he defeated her, was one of the most enjoyable days of my life. I will never forget it, the joy I experienced, when I actually believed he had no chance at all to defeat her, and in her arrogance, she believed that also. Even the media half way through election night said Trump had ZERO chance of winning. LOL! Too awesome!

Trump is certainly no moron, and you’re too stupid to see that.

Let the vote downs begin!

Troll

I think it’s safe to say most of us here care very little about politics. If Trump would guarantee ev and green energy progress, shut his mouth and stop giving money to corporations i would personally bring his MCD everyday.

Dear Admins…
*THIS* is what a Russian troll writes like.

We can achieve national standard by ALL STATES adopting California Regulations. Clearly they lead in this area. Better to have the improvements sooner and faster.
Cleaner air means lower state healthcare costs.

Indeed. Any state that is currently going on about how “tough” they are on climate matters should put action behind their words and join CARB’s ZEV program.

Yes, but. There are still many powerful groups like NADA who heavily influence their legislatures. So no chance MI or TX, joining, or any red-state for that matter.

CA’s regulations are a joke.
At one time, they were good, but at this time, they have caved into all the ICE car makers.

Argh, you’d figure this would be the one place you could avoid Cheeto’s mug.

Do what you like America. But please find your own planet to do it in.
(signed) Rest of World

It’s not “America”, it’s a few big corporations that constantly pump money to brainwash the weak minded. The science deniers are the minority not the other way around. And believe me, if you could eject these mfers to the moon we would.

You are aware that China continues to produce more CO2 than All of the west COMBINED? Yes?
And that America CONTINUES to drop our CO2. Again, YES?
Finally, that CHina will ADD more COAL plants than what the west has COMBINED?
They are adding .75 TW. America is below 250 GW of coal.
Heck, America has not added coal in 8 years, while EUrope continues to add it all over, including Germany.

Or are you really that ignorant?

Rather than looking at CO2 production per country, wouldn’t it be more reasonable to look at a country’s CO2 production per person? I would certainly expect Lichtenstein to produce less CO2 than China.

The answer to that question depends on your agenda. For oil supporters it’s “NO”.

Nope. Co2 per person has to be one of the WORST normalization that there is. The reason is that ppl do not make the real choices. For example, we have a 10 KW solar city lease from 5 years ago, a 2013 tesla model S, added insulation in our walls, and replaced north facing windows with aerogel based windows. Needless to say, in our house hold, we consume less energy than does an Indian, or even a dane. BUT, where did this come about? The insulation and windows were due to Obama’s push on subsidies. We took advantage. Likewise, we did the solar lease because of O’s push on solar made it possible. Finally, the Model S is my wife’s car, which we bought used 3-4 years ago. So, was this because of our choice to do this? Not really. It was economics. the ONLY real non-economic choice was the aerogel window. The solar is paying for itself. We are leasing and counting on the ability to upgrade to tesla roof when it comes out (when we did this 4 years ago, I knew that major changes were coming so lease was right way to go). The insulation has already… Read more »

The same auto manufacturers that wanted lower emissions standards?

The same auto manufacturers that are dragging their feet on converting over to EV’s?

Either this is a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, as in different voices from different parts of the industry, or they’re the biggest hypocrites around.

Too funny, they are going to blame Trump for their bad behavior. What a riot. You can’t make this stuff up.

They are trying to save face with Cali. I think Cali is perparing some new legislation that they are really scared of. If CA is left by itself, they will impose much stricter standards than what they are already planning.

Mark, I hope that oyu are right.
CA used to be about being a clean state. Not any more. And the current regs that you folks have on your cars are a joke. They caved into to old car makers. At this point, I would be impressed if they said that in 2025, you can no longer register NEW ICE based cars, no ICE based cars for sale there, and anybody caught living there while using outside plated ICE car will get huge fines/prison time.

Harald. My thoughts too, but I think this is a hopefully sincere attempt to clean up their image.

I think CA will win because they have lots of clout, and another 10 states that support their standards.
It will probably go to the courts, where they have the advantage. In addition no state is going to knuckle under to a rogue regime, headed by a President of questionable legitimacy.

He, Trump, wants to weaken standards and roll back the clock, and has placed lackeys in positions or authority and heading agencies, which they are not suited for, nor have the skills to run, in order to promote his recalcitrant and backward looking agenda.

Maybe Shell Oil can get in on the action too, and remind the Trump administration that climate change is real.

They’ve been experts on the subject for a good 30 years, after all.

Rump is such a sad, sick circus clown.

Sad, sick circus clowns deserve better than being Lumped in with the “Rump”!

Trump will cave on the ‘Climate Change Issue’ as he has on most others. Trump is basically told what to do, but he’s a great salesman/promoter.

No body answered the following question last time I posited it.

The progression of SETTLED SCIENCE:

Global Cooling.
Global Warming.
Climate Change
Climate Disruption.

A serious question: Why is the latest “Settled Science” given any more weight than the old “Settled Science”?

Nova had recently a doc on the subject. It was made in a way you would understand. Watch it!
“Decoding the weather machine”

NOVA used to be a good program, but nowadays they are more concerned with flashy graphics. A recent example was their program on extreme cold had several errors in it supposedly explaining how compression causes refrigeration.
When PBS was truly independent, they produced high-value shows, but now they are just as compromised as Fox news.

Meh, it’s more like media interpretation of “settled science.” Kind of like how prosecutors like to get expert witnesses to say “reasonable scientific certainty,” a term that the National Academy of Sciences says is not a real scientific term. But it sure sounds great to scientific dullards like media pundits!

80 mpg for all passenger vehicles would be ideal. CONNECT THE DOTS ON CLEAN AIR WAKE UP FOLKS

Filter to emissions through the cabin should be ideal. That way it will be at least one set of lungs to filter the air before i breath it.

I like to use the tailpipe as respirator analogy to people who complain about emission controls: “Oh, if you think your car exhaust is so clean, would you use it as a respirator? No? I thought so!”