Porsche Turns To Panasonic, Bosch To Supply Electric Sports Car Battery

1 year ago by Eric Loveday 38

The Porsche Mission E, A Pure Electric Supercar Had Its World Premier At The 2015 IAA

The Porsche Mission E, A Pure Electric Supercar Had Its World Premier At The 2015 IAA

Porsche Mission E concept

Porsche Mission E concept

Bloomberg is reporting that Porsche is considering bids from both Panasonic and Bosch to supply battery packs for the German automaker’s upcoming electric sports car – based on the Mission E Concept.

As Automotive New states:

“Costs for the package offered by crosstown neighbor Bosch would be higher than the competing technology from Japanese peer Panasonic, which supplies Tesla’s batteries, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the talks are confidential. The advantage to Bosch’s offer would be less-complex logistics.”

We at InsideEVs believe that Panasonic will win this bid (considering the use of Sanyo/Panasonic cells already), but we could be wrong. For what it is worth, neither battery maker would offer comment on the matter.

Porsche CEO Oliver Blume did briefly discuss this at the Geneva Motor Show, stating:

“We’re in the final stage of making a decision.”

Porsche has set aside over $1 billion to build the electric sports car that will surely compete with any Tesla model out there when it hits the market later this decade.

Here are some Mission E specs:

  • 500 km (310 mile) all-electric range
  • 0-100 km (62 mph) in “under 3.5 seconds
  • over 600 hp (440 kW) via two motors
  • 4 seats
  • 200 kmh (124 mph) in under 12 seconds.

Source: Automotive News

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38 responses to "Porsche Turns To Panasonic, Bosch To Supply Electric Sports Car Battery"

  1. s says:

    Yes it will surely compete with any Tesla model out there, if by compete you mean come out at least 5 years later, cost more, have less seating and storage space and a much inferior charging infrastructure and by any Tesla model out there you mean the already out of production Model S P85+

    1. buu says:

      you know they *may* have battery cooling that can handle max power for more that 1 minute or stated power could be real achievable power not some teoretical number…

      1. s says:

        You seem to have high confidence that VW group’s stated numbers are true. Do you drive a diesel?

        Jokes aside, I hope they exceed Tesla on the sustained max power front. But mostly because I don’t think racing should be high on Tesla’s priorities list.

        1. pjwood1 says:

          Tesla tried to ‘power-splain’ us, and it didn’t work out that well 🙂

        2. buu says:

          I ride bicycle and VW or Peugeot diesel as work vehicle. And what I was saying unless Tesla makes special pack for high constant power Porsche can easily make faster electric sports car, because currently the only diffence in Ses is short term max amp capability aka ludicrous

    2. Someone out there says:

      You don’t buy a sports car to get seating and storage space. Different cars for different purposes.

      1. jerryd says:

        Yes someone, but if that same larger car beats the sportcar, it’s just sad.
        What may be more sad is a T3 performance version beating it!!
        And no way Bosch can compete on price with Panasonic.
        Though Panasonics might not be as low cost as Tesla’s with Tesla’s patents lowering weight and cutting costs.

        1. Braben says:

          Depends on what you consider “beating”. The Model S is good for drag racing due to the instant torque, but on a race track it’s very mediocre compared to a sports car due to its high weight, numb steering feedback and not very good grip. I’m pretty sure that just about any car built by Porsche will easily beat it on the track.

          1. jerryd says:

            With racing instead of low rolling resistance tires the S will give most supercars a run for the money.
            If for no other reason the low CG, polar moment from the battery weight, 30%+ lower than the best gas cars.
            And most really fast cars weigh as much as the S which surprised me.
            And likely the Porsche will weigh as much with such a large battery pack that isn’t competitive with Tesla’s.
            Neither Panasonic or Bosch can beat Tesla’s patented cells/packs, even at 2x’s the
            price.
            I guess they think they need to be heavy to stay on the ground at high speed.
            Really it is aero.

            1. pjwood1 says:

              Tesla has succeeded in changing the narrative to the drag strip. Those who track aren’t fooled.

          2. PVH says:

            I appreciate your efforts but you will have a hard time trying to explain what a sport car is here on an north american site. When I read the replies you get it is obvious they do not understand what you are writing about. There is more technology in a Porsche disk brake than in an entire Tesla drive unit but you could waste a century trying to make your point understood.

            1. pjwood1 says:

              Do I detect condescension? Porsche and Chevy both use Brembo ceramic, only Chevy charges >50% less. Wolfgang Hatz, their head of R&D, was busy putting technology into defeat devices, before VW moved him over to Porsche.

              1. Kacey Green says:

                Tesla also uses Brembo iirc

            2. Braben says:

              Yes, as a European currently living in the US, I just don’t get the obsession with drag racing. It’s not very demanding technology-wise, requires only very limited driver skills (which may of course be why it’s so popular here) and is generally just boring.

              In my younger days I was living in the Eifel region in Germany and took my cars to the Nuerburgring quite often. Loads of fun and I learned a lot.

              1. Bill Howland says:

                You are absolutely correct. I was trying to respond but Disqus isn’t responding.

                Doing racing with Tesla’s delicate, overworked gearboxes is doubly-dumb since it isn’t covered under warranty.

            3. Get Real says:

              Oops, PVH’s fact-free anti-Tesla FUD there just went down the toilet!

  2. R.S. says:

    Go for Bosch I would say. Porsche has the assets to take a risk and if that risk is investing in a new player, thats worth it. If it doesn’t work out, they can change supplier for their facelift or something like that.

    I don’t want a pure LG Panasonic battle, with some Samsung mixed in. The more competition in the field of batteries the better for the consumers!

  3. GeorgeS says:

    I vote Panasonic is the better choice. They are the biggest supplier and should have the latest and greatest technology.

    I’m definitely looking forward to this Mission e. If they can pull off this 800V battery and charging system and get charging time down to 15 minutes it will be a big step in EV progress.

    1. Priusmaniac says:

      A Model S pack has series of 96 cells to make 408 V, so the Porsche pack will need to have series of 192 cells to get to 800 V. If they look for a similar energy they will parallel 37 of those series instead of the 74 in the Model S. A final step would be to work with series of 400 cells to get 1600 V and parallel 20.

    2. Paul Stoller says:

      If they do pull off 800V charging I wonder what for the impact to the grid infrastructure might take. Do we see 800V service become a common standard or do we see a proliferation of stationary “buffer batteries” that act as a sort of “tank” for the 800V charging stations.

      If this became common I would think the batter banks could also be leveraged to stabilize the grid and allow for the increased use of renewables.

      1. buu says:

        by your logic currently it wouldn’t be possible to charge any car with single phase source. In short batteries are not charged with fixed voltage

      2. Priusmaniac says:

        Voltage doesn’t change the amount of energy required it only allow more power transfer through a same cable section. It is best compared to water pressure, if you use higher pressure you are not going to put more water in you bath but your same pipes are going to fill it faster.

        1. Paul Stoller says:

          I understand ohm’s law thank you, but if there is an 800V charging standard 800V needs to be supplied to charge it.

          My mistake was in assuming AC charging vs DC charging. If AC charging were used it would require an 800V AC source would it not? There is till going to be a challenge to provide the amperage necessary at 800V even at DC if you are drawing from a 240V AC source.

          My overall point being is that we are going to need significant infrastructure upgrades in one form or another. I am wondering if we will see more service upgrade to deliver more overall power per location, or if the use of battery buffers will be used. And if both are used what sort of mix we will see.

          1. Priusmaniac says:

            The 800 V is likely not going to come from a low voltage 240 ac line but rather from a standard high voltage 11000 v or 15000 v line. Instead of having the transformer making 240 v ac from it it is going to reduce the voltage less and provide 560 v ac from which a rectifier will make the 800 v dc. Not that it would be impossible to pump up the 240 ac back to 560 ac to make the same 800 v dc but it is shorter to have a smaller voltage reduction.
            If storage is also involved a fly wheel would be able to both, take in 240 ac slowly and deliver 560 v ac fast to provide the 800 v dc.
            Note that batteries charging at 400 v dc could, when discharging, be coupled in a serial configuration to supply 800 v dc as well.
            In any case a car able to charge at 800 v would also still be able to charge at 400 v and also at 240 v ac or even 110 v ac. When charging the serial cells configuration can be switched to whatever is required at that moment. For instance in theory a Model S could have all his 7104 cells switched in one serial string and charge at 30192 volt dc but above 1600 v insulation and security would start to pose harder challenges but 1600 v is still way higher then the low 400 v.

            1. Paul Stoller says:

              Good information, I guess given the requirement for 800V charging we likely wouldn’t see these in everyone garage. This is where my knowledge about the structure of the grid is a bit limited, how many places outside of a substation would have access to the high voltage lines?

              1. Bill Howland says:

                Power conversion is very low cost today. Any voltage, phase, and frequency can be converted into anything else at a reasonable cost and efficiency.

                While there may be new rate schedules specifically for ev’s since its just an accounting construct, there wont be anything physically changing to accomodate evs since a new type of service is unnecessary.

                The power levels drawn from existing utilities will be costed accordingly, whether people like it or not.

                But it appears we are closer to the minimization of subsidies rather than the maximum, so I wouldn’t expect ‘free electric filling stations’ to last forever.

            2. Bill Howland says:

              As I recall, you used to want 35,000 volt cars which you said was easy because cars had spark plugs.

              When I initially suggested 1500 volts as a compromise since the cord connectors and switchgear were commonly available, you said it was much too low.

              Id say if Porsche wants 800 volts for their cars, let them have it.

              There will after all, be more chargers available for this Porsche than refueling facilities for the Hydrogen Mirai.

              1. Paul Stoller says:

                “There will after all, be more chargers available for this Porsche than refueling facilities for the Hydrogen Mirai.”

                Isn’t that the truth!!

              2. Priusmaniac says:

                Basically the thinking back then was getting higher in voltage since it is was clear that you couldn’t get a 5 or 10 minute recharge with a mere 400 V. The cable would be too big or get really too hot.

                The 35000 Volt started with just going wild in getting a higher voltage, it came from the spark plugs case and the 30000+ voltage level that would be available if all the individual Model S cells where put in one single serial configuration, I thought that the sky was the limit so I went for it.

                But now I also think 1600 v or 1500 v could be a good compromise not from existing standard but after the following ground up thinking.

                At the moment a supercharger is filling at 135 KW under 400 v with what seem to be the practical limit in charging cable thickness. That is to charge 90 KWh at 80% in 40 minutes. Since we start to see that the end game battery energy level is going to be between 150 KWh and 200 KWh, so in the hardest case, we need to have something that can fill 80% of 200 KWh in 5 minutes. That corresponds to transferring a power of 1920 KW. Active cooling of the 400 V cable can probably help somewhat but that is not going to be sufficient and is obviously a waste of energy. So since cable section can’t be increased either the only way is still higher voltage. 1920 KW is at least an order of magnitude higher than the supercharger so the 400 V need to be multiplied by 15 which gives 6000 v.

                This was for quite a while the second voltage I was aiming for.

                But then came the comments and reflections on electric arcing, on corona, on manipulating such a voltage and on high power automatic charging. This brought back the charging from under the car by conductive contacts with no human intervention concept which solved the manipulation problem. But in the same time that brought the possibility of having larger hand palm sized contacts, which in a sense means a somewhat higher section at least on the contacts. Four times larger contacts would bring the voltage back down to 1500 v. The 1600 v is a fine tune from the 4 times 400 v idea so that the car would have an easy way to reconfigure the serial cells connections to match that lower existing supercharger voltage.

                So if you though 1500 v from the start by another way then my above evolution of though, yes you were right on back then. But you are going to need the larger under the car contacts as well otherwise it is going to require a combination of 1500 V and active cooling which would still also be a possibility although energy consuming (plus needing a robot?). An under the car system would sums up to 2 large contacts on a 2 foot plastic speed bump with retractable leaf spring contacts under the car.

                As you can see I like to reflect on this topic and I indeed can change my mind accordingly.

                1. Bill Howland says:

                  I’m not sure why things transpired this way, but apparently in North America so called DEMAND charges are relatively steep, designed to encourage gradual, continual use of electricity, and to penalize those who use gulps of electricity, and then use nothing.

                  In Europe, “Demand Contracted For” is more the rule, and it ends up being much less costly, – at least in places like France where even they – if our documentaries can be believed – think they have possibly overdone it a bit on encouraging everyone over to Electric Heat.

                  It hasn’t been since the 1960’s in the Northeastern United States where Electricity for heating was encouraged. Today in my area (and many others), people would view you as having rocks in your head if you decided to heat a place with electric heat.

                  Natural Gas for us is very low cost, currently at my house 1.2 cents/ kwh. Electricity is around 8 times more expensive, and that is still cheaper than in the cheapest places in Europe.

                  But as far as electric cars are concerned, in Europe there doesn’t appear to be much reluctance to install 22kw or even 63 kw chargers. Tesla’s SuperChargers are a very interesting exceptional case, since many of us are wondering if they are long term financially sustainable, even though Musk says their cost is Immaterial.

                  Be that as it may, he still send out warning mail to please have the locals charge at home.

                  And that is at a measley 60-120 kw rate.

  4. Mike I says:

    Daimler has the right approach. Build a huge plant that can assemble whatever cells they want into whatever pack configuration they need, on their own terms. Cells are commodity, packs are proprietary. The fact that Porsche is talking about easier logistics means that they are not serious about the endeavor. Look at FCA. Marchionne says that all this stuff is supplier level stuff that they can buy from anyone. He doesn’t care to develop the expertise in-house because he doesn’t have the vision for how to be competitive in “new energy” vehicles. They just completely outsourced the whole Pacifica battery pack including all the BMS to LG Chem.

    1. Jake Brake says:

      And all FCA got from outsourcing the Pacifica pack to LG was a benchmark phev pack in the industry and an architecture that can be reused on multiple vehicle platforms…

    2. JakeY says:

      GM is doing similar for the Bolt (although not for the Volt). We’ll see pretty soon how well it works out.

      At the moment though, I’m pretty sure LG Chem is giving some pretty sweet deals since they want to fill out their production capacity (after it being idle so long).

      1. Mike I says:

        I think the situation with the Bolt and the Pacifica are very different. GM did all the Volt pack integration themselves and I expect that they did the same on the Bolt. So, GM is just buying cells from LG Chem. The Pacifica pack is completely done by LG Chem – cells, BMS, thermal management (if any), and packaging are all engineered by LG Chem in Michigan.

        1. Mike says:

          GM are not just getting cells from LG. They are getting the entire battery, motor, controller etc as well as vehicle electronics. All GM does it bolt it together.

      2. jerryd says:

        Jake, any deals LG gets they will have to build new capacity for.
        They won’t even be able to supply the Bolt if GM will sell to the demand instead of limiting output.
        Not a problem as one gets the battery supply contracts 2 yrs before production which happens to be the battery material supply ramp up time too.

        1. JakeY says:

          LG actually has a overcapacity of cell and pack production from 2010. Right now their pack assembly plant in the US still is not filled out completely (it was built to handle 5 lines, and right now they have 4 running).

          It had been idle for too long (infamously in 2013 with LG paying workers not to watch movies and play games with federal money).

          Yes, once the others are in production, they might have to build new lines (and then LG will have leverage to raise prices), but I’m sure the initial signers will be getting some pretty sweet deals. This is especially true for full solutions, which LG is trying to gain experience in (with their new automotive center opened recently).